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knelson
April 29th, 2009, 10:21 AM
Yes this is another thread about the suits.

I think Speedo completely shot themselves in the foot with the LZR Racer suit. If you look back at the history I think they've shown a tremendous amount of arrogance and I, for one, am glad to see karma come back to bite them.

Here's a short history as I see it:
1. Speedo develops the LZR suit and begins an unprecedented marketing blitz at the start of 2008. We're talking TV ads, appearances by Phelps and Coughlin on the Today Show wearing the suits. It was pretty clear Speedo wanted the LZR to be the story of the Olympics, and for the most part they got their wish...
2. Top athletes start wearing the LZR and records fall in droves. Speedo has seemingly accomplished their mission of designing the suit that every serious swimmer needs to have to compete. Paid shill and USA Swimming National Team coach Mark Schubert talks about how the suit is the greatest thing since sliced bread. The suit, however, is not available to the general public.
3. The Olympics go just as Speedo intended. Phelps wins eight golds wearing the suit. The average Joe on the street even knows about the suit. It still isn't available to the general public, though, and demand continues to grow.
4. At the same time, somewhat surreptitiously, several other manufacturers come out with new suits. These fly completely under the radar for a while, but the serious fan can see that the LZR isn't the only fast suit out there. Also, these other suits are actually available to everyone AND are cheaper than what the LZR will cost!
5. The Speedo suit finally becomes available to the general public. I'm sure demand was high initially, but I just never saw it gain huge acceptance outside of National level athletes, college teams endorsed by Speedo, etc.
6. The Blue Seventy Nero emerges as a worthly contender to the LZR and sells like hot cakes. People initially buy it because Speedo attempted to manipulate the market and drive up demand for the LZR. This strategy fails when people realize the B70 is probably just as fast, available, and cheaper.
7. Speedo runs crying to FINA. They convince FINA to impose news rules on suits that will lead to the B70 suit being banned, while allowing the pure, snowy white LZR to remain legal.
8. The Jaked suit from Italy first comes to the attention of the U.S. market when Auburn swims lights out on the final day of men's NCAAs to nip Texas. It's star rises further when a largely unknown swimmer from Spain destroys the 50 meter fly world record and nearly takes down what is considered one of the greatest records on the books--Crocker's 100 fly--which, incidently is one of the few remaining records set without the aid of the latest generation of suits.
9. Speedo's paid shill Mark Schubert flip-flops and is now against the suits.
"It's totally out of control... Now we're into speedboat driving.'' (http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/sports_globetrotting/2009/04/ioc-must-stop-swimming-from-sinking-in-its-leaders-stupidity.html) Or maybe he's only against non-Speedo suits. It's not really clear! :)

I think that about sums it up. The bottom line is Speedo thought they could corner the market with the LZR. They failed because they didn't see other manufacturers coming in to fill the void with cheaper and maybe better suits. I also think they made a big gaffe by pricing the LZR just a little too high. Most people were not willing to shell out $550 for a swimsuit especially one that's only good for a few swims [thanks, Jim].

Am I missing anything?

jim thornton
April 29th, 2009, 10:53 AM
Superb conspiracy theory, which I actually agree with. The one thing I see you may have missed is that the LZR, from what I have heard, is extremely short-lived, getting quickly stretched out after a meet or two. In contrast, the B70 lasts much, much longer. So not only is the latter initially cheaper, but it lacks the planned or unplanned obsolescence of the LZR. This, more even than the initial price differential, is a huge advantage.

Speedo has a history of this kind of thing, at least in my mind. When I was younger, all their suits were nylon and would last forever. Somewhere along the way, they switched to Lycra Spandex, which was the most miserable excuse for a swimming fabric you can imagine outside of maybe Kleenex or wood.

Within three weeks of wearing a perfectly fitted Lycra suit, especially if you made the mistake of going into the hot tub after practice, your urological apparatus became more or less shrink-wrapped in form fitting and largely dye-depleted see-through material. Even if you were of the temperament not to mind such exhibitionism, it forced your disgusted teammates to hem and haw their way into suggesting it was time to get a new suit.

Until competitors came out with polyester alternatives, I am convinced that Speedo would have happily wracked up profits forever on this quick turnover cycle of expense-obscenity-threatened morals charges-new expense suit sales formula.

All this being said, I will give kudos to Speedo for their 70's era swim suit catalog models whose comeliness provided my adolescent morph with no shortage of motivation.

knelson
April 29th, 2009, 10:58 AM
Good point on the durability issue.

The fact that Speedo tried to manipulate the market with the LZR is beyond dispute, IMO. Whether they influenced FINA on the new requirements for suits is a little more unclear, but I suspect they did to some extent.

This whole story has the makings of a good magazine piece. Too bad we don't have a writer on this board. :)

Jazz Hands
April 29th, 2009, 11:07 AM
That sounds about right. I was a little concerned last year with all the LZR hype. It was like the media were just relaying Speedo's press releases to us. There's even a section on the Wikipedia page about 2008 Olympic swimming titled "LZR Racer suits", as if the other suits (Tracer Rise, for example) didn't even exist. But now everything is good because Alain Bernard raced in a LZR, called it an "old suit", and partially blamed his loss on it.

jim thornton
April 29th, 2009, 11:15 AM
This whole story has the makings of a good magazine piece. Too bad we don't have a writer on this board. :)


America's vaunted "free press" notwithstanding, story ideas that expose the unseemly side of actual or potential advertisers tend to fall by the wayside.

Not quite sure why.

nkfrench
April 29th, 2009, 02:29 PM
When I was younger, all their suits were nylon and would last forever. Somewhere along the way, they switched to Lycra Spandex, which was the most miserable excuse for a swimming fabric you can imagine outside of maybe Kleenex or wood.

Maybe that was the general experience for men, but women's nylon suits could be miserable. There wasn't enough stretch so it was difficult to get a good fit. We used shoestrings to keep the straps from slipping off shoulders, had gaping necklines that scooped up water, got raw rubbed areas on the shoulders, had the suit ride up on flipturns, had "fallout" and "falldown" for anyone who wasn't flat-chested, and yes, they also faded badly and got holes.

Buying a lycra suit that was only decent for 3 months still seemed like a good alternative.

Fresnoid
April 29th, 2009, 02:38 PM
Superb conspiracy theory, which I actually agree with. The one thing I see you may have missed is that the LZR, from what I have heard, is extremely short-lived, getting quickly stretched out after a meet or two. In contrast, the B70 lasts much, much longer. So not only is the latter initially cheaper, but it lacks the planned or unplanned obsolescence of the LZR. This, more even than the initial price differential, is a huge advantage.

Speedo has a history of this kind of thing, at least in my mind. When I was younger, all their suits were nylon and would last forever. Somewhere along the way, they switched to Lycra Spandex, which was the most miserable excuse for a swimming fabric you can imagine outside of maybe Kleenex or wood.

Within three weeks of wearing a perfectly fitted Lycra suit, especially if you made the mistake of going into the hot tub after practice, your urological apparatus became more or less shrink-wrapped in form fitting and largely dye-depleted see-through material. Even if you were of the temperament not to mind such exhibitionism, it forced your disgusted teammates to hem and haw their way into suggesting it was time to get a new suit.

Until competitors came out with polyester alternatives, I am convinced that Speedo would have happily wracked up profits forever on this quick turnover cycle of expense-obscenity-threatened morals charges-new expense suit sales formula.

All this being said, I will give kudos to Speedo for their 70's era swim suit catalog models whose comeliness provided my adolescent morph with no shortage of motivation.


Who wore Lycra suits to workout in the 70's? As I remember it, everyone knew they were only for racing since they dissolved so quickly with chlorine exposure.

jim thornton
April 29th, 2009, 02:44 PM
Nancy, I suppose shrink wrappage in women doesn't result in the sheer disgust factor of this phenomenon in my gender. I had absolutely no idea you poor things were suffering such rampant fallup and falldown, though I admit keeping a frequent eye out for fallout. In any event, I absolutely would have been, and still will be, Johnny-on-the-spot to lend a helping hand or two if this problem persists.

Fresnoid, I didn't wear lycra suits in the 70s; I didn't even know they made them. My first experience with these was after joining a masters team in the 80s/90s. I remember how comfortable my first Lycra suit felt.

And the next thing I knew, I was facing serious prison time.

ande
April 29th, 2009, 03:36 PM
a few questions, comments and additions

1. were there LZR TV ads or just stories & features about the LZR?

2. Top athletes start wearing the LZR "because they were sponsored by Speedo" Speedo pays them and requires them to wear Speedo.

3. speedo thought demand continued to grow.
LZR problems began to emerge, zippers breaking during races, suits ripping, & swimmers not getting to use the LZR in many races

6. This strategy fails when people realize the B70 is probably just as fast, available, cheaper, & possibly more durable.

7. Suit related abuses spurred FINA to clarify rules regarding suits.

8. actually Federica Pelligrini wore Jaked at the 2008 Olympics (http://www.exposay.com/celebrity-photos/federica-pellegrini-2008-olympic-games-day-3-swimming-RVvDss.jpg) when she broke the WR in the 200 FR, she also wore a second suit beneath it (http://nimg.sulekha.com/Sports/original700/federica-pellegrini-2009-3-8-14-0.jpg).

here's a shot of her walking around deck after her 200 free (http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/82280152.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF19368FFB0B613D6DEB0BF8161ABD72F847B 5A5397277B4DC33E)

another one
nother one (http://www.nancarrow-webdesk.com/warehouse/storage2/2008-w32/img.295998_t.jpg),



9. Speedo's paid shill Mark Schubert flip-flops and is now against the suits.
"It's totally out of control... Now we're into speedboat driving.''
so does this mean that he's now against the LZR or just suits that might be faster than the LZR?

knelson
April 29th, 2009, 03:42 PM
7. Suit related abuses spurred FINA to clarify rules regarding suits.

9. Speedo's paid shill Mark Schubert flip-flops and is now against the suits.
"It's totally out of control... Now we're into speedboat driving.''
so does this mean that he's now against the LZR or just suits that are faster than it?

Good points. I forgot one of the first reasons FINA reacted was because of "suit stacking."

With regard to Schubert, I don't really know. To be fair, he didn't so much endorse the LZR last year as state that it was a game changing suit.

Karen Duggan
April 29th, 2009, 03:43 PM
Ande- Clicking on the pictures it doesn't look like a tech suit underneath...? Do you know?

lefty
April 29th, 2009, 04:10 PM
The only proof you really need for this theory is for someone to confirm that the short supplying the suit was part of Speedo's strategy. The rest of the narative falls into place after that...

All of the press releases that were sent out about wolrd record swims performed in LZR's were provided to the AP by Speedo. I know that for a fact (Okay, I don't know that for fact at all!).

quicksilver
April 29th, 2009, 04:58 PM
8. actually Federica Pelligrini wore Jaked at the 2008 Olympics (http://www.exposay.com/celebrity-photos/federica-pellegrini-2008-olympic-games-day-3-swimming-RVvDss.jpg) when she broke the WR in the 200 FR, she also wore a second suit beneath it (http://nimg.sulekha.com/Sports/original700/federica-pellegrini-2009-3-8-14-0.jpg).




Was suit stacking banned right after the Olympics?

isobel
April 29th, 2009, 08:24 PM
Good point on the durability issue.

The fact that Speedo tried to manipulate the market with the LZR is beyond dispute, IMO. Whether they influenced FINA on the new requirements for suits is a little more unclear, but I suspect they did to some extent.

This whole story has the makings of a good magazine piece. Too bad we don't have a writer on this board. :)

Here is where the other thread on modern publication (non-swim-related threads) comes into play, perhaps. In order to prove the conspiracy theory we would need some good, seasoned investigative reporters, some disgruntled insiders at Speedo, some lawyers to defend the writer(s) against Speedo libel suits (ooh, a good name for a new brand! the "Libel Suit" ha ha ha ha) (I digress; drivel), and an interested audience larger than the swimming world.

I rather liked the nylon suits. Mine was orange and would have lasted forever had I not forgotten it in a locker at UNC-Chapel Hill about 20 years ago. There is a store in Ipswich, MA, that still sells them, very cheap. My brother gave me two from that store. Alas, I'm too concerned with image to wear such outdated swimwear now. Also, they were too small.

I am glad to wear Nike polyester suits to practice. They last a year and don't lose their elasticity around the legs, as my Speedo polyester version did. Until I discovered the Nike polyester suit, I was forking out either $35 or $60 every 8 weeks for another suit.

rtodd
April 29th, 2009, 08:33 PM
Ande- Clicking on the pictures it doesn't look like a tech suit underneath...? Do you know?


It's not a tech suit. I have the Olympics on DVD and have watched it numerous times. Looks like a regular training suit. I think this type of suit would trap the most air underneath the tech suit.

ehoch
April 29th, 2009, 09:07 PM
I think that Blue Seventy actually started the whole mess at the 2006 Ironman -- they came out with swim "legal" suit and blew away the competition. I think Speedo may have started their new design research at that time.

From 2006 Ironman:

at the morning swim today sporting the new Blue Seventy pointzero3 Swimskin. The eye-catching skinsuit is built for the swim from Lycra and a 0.3mm fabric that yields the same surface properties as neopreneóbut the compression means there's no buoyancy. It's crafted using Blue Seventy's Helix pattern, essentially a figure 8 turned on its side, with Lycra used in the Helix portions of the suit. Blue Seventy's Tim Moxey brought the spanking-new suits over from the Mainland for athletes including Stadler, Heather Gollnick, Bryan Rhodes, Mitchell Anderson, Karen Smyers and Linda Gallo. "There are 18 of them in the world, and 16 of them are here," he said this morning. Of the fabric, Moxey said: "It's over 50 times more slick than skin and four times more slippery than the other swim skins on the market."

That Guy
April 29th, 2009, 09:37 PM
I think that Blue Seventy actually started the whole mess at the 2006 Ironman -- they came out with swim "legal" suit and blew away the competition. I think Speedo may have started their new design research at that time.

Legal for triathlon might require a bit of additional explanation here. In triathlons, you can wear a wetsuit in water that is 77 degrees or colder. In 78 degrees or warmer, technical suits are the way to go. At Ironman Hawaii, the water temperature is typically over 80 degrees, so wetsuits are out. I haven't been paying attention the last couple years but I'm sure B70's and LZR's are in vogue...

david.margrave
April 30th, 2009, 12:21 AM
EPIC FAIL i like it!

david.margrave
April 30th, 2009, 12:22 AM
Legal for triathlon might require a bit of additional explanation here. In triathlons, you can wear a wetsuit in water that is 77 degrees or colder. In 78 degrees or warmer, technical suits are the way to go. At Ironman Hawaii, the water temperature is typically over 80 degrees, so wetsuits are out. I haven't been paying attention the last couple years but I'm sure B70's and LZR's are in vogue...

This is interesting, if the B70 is banned by FINA and by USMS for pool events would it still be banned from the 'non wetsuit' division of USMS OW races?

knelson
April 30th, 2009, 01:26 AM
Thanks for the info on the 2006 Ironman, ehoch. I didn't know this.

ehoch
April 30th, 2009, 01:47 AM
They used the suit in Kona -- I think that is a "no wetsuit no matter what" type of event. But some of our tri cross-overs may know this better.

Ahelee Sue Osborn
April 30th, 2009, 02:06 AM
Touche to the triathletes!

They ALWAYS go for the latest - greatest - and FASTEST!

When this suit hit Kona, no one blinked - and everyone was PSYCHED!

The Hawaii Ironman is always on the cutting edge of swim, bike, and run technology.
GREAT energy and vision.

And... the most beautiful fragrant flowers of any race!

ande
April 30th, 2009, 10:34 AM
Thanks, I wrote about suit stacking in Aug 2008 Tip 219 Stacking Tech Suits also I think there are earlier cases of suit stacking but they flew totally under the radar.

I tested suit stacking on Saturday Aug 9th, 2008 practice
At the time I did fast 50 frees at the end of most practices.
My 50's at Mabel Davis were usually between 24.6 - 24.8, in that practice while wearing 2 blue seventy suits I went 24.28.

At olympic training camp after trials I think schubert told the team to wear LZRs. Can't remember his exact words.

I've always been a proponent for swimmers to test different tech suits to figure out which one allows them to swim the fastest. I think some swimmers chose too quickly & didn't test enough.


Good points. I forgot one of the first reasons FINA reacted was because of "suit stacking."

With regard to Schubert, I don't really know. To be fair, he didn't so much endorse the LZR last year as state that it was a game changing suit.

ande
April 30th, 2009, 11:01 AM
Pelligrini wore Addidas (http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/82280152.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF19368FFB0B613D6DEB0BF8161ABD72F847B 5A5397277B4DC33E) under her Jaked in the 200 free finals at the 2008 olympics, it looks like a regular lycra suit. I argue that almost any suit under a tech suit provides an advantage because it occupies space & can trap air.

Eddie said some teams protested that she wore 2 suits in the race.

I'm pretty sure FINAs rules about DISQUALIFICATIONS say

Swimmers are not permitted to wear or use any device or substance to help their speed, pace or buoyancy during a race.

What's funny is they STOP the PACE CLOCKS during Long Course meets at the swim center but weren't checking for swimmers wearing 2 suits.

Ande


Ande- Clicking on the pictures it doesn't look like a tech suit underneath...? Do you know?

ande
April 30th, 2009, 11:06 AM
No, the NCAA made the first move in mid Dec 2008 saying athletes could not wear 2 suits in competition.

Then Fina's Rules came out in March 2009.


Was suit stacking banned right after the Olympics?

ande
April 30th, 2009, 11:20 AM
the thing is, Triathletes wear a tech suit that allows them to:
1) swim fast,
2) quickly transition & not destroy suit while changing,
(Zip string in back, suits flare at the ankles, has velcro
3) wear their race outfit under their tech suit

don't think many wear LZRs


Legal for triathlon might require a bit of additional explanation here. In triathlons, you can wear a wetsuit in water that is 77 degrees or colder. In 78 degrees or warmer, technical suits are the way to go. At Ironman Hawaii, the water temperature is typically over 80 degrees, so wetsuits are out. I haven't been paying attention the last couple years but I'm sure B70's and LZR's are in vogue...

ande
April 30th, 2009, 11:24 AM
Another thing to note is, even if B70 Nero Comps don't make FINAs phase 1 list, the Blue Seventy point zero's will be legal till 1/1/10
Nero Comps came out in Oct 2007
Point Zero's came out in Sep 2006

Masters Swimmingís official interpretation of Swimwear rule 102.14 (http://www.usms.org/forums/showpost.php?p=174864&postcount=1110)



I think that Blue Seventy actually started the whole mess at the 2006 Ironman -- they came out with swim "legal" suit and blew away the competition. I think Speedo may have started their new design research at that time.

From 2006 Ironman:

at the morning swim today sporting the new Blue Seventy pointzero3 Swimskin. The eye-catching skinsuit is built for the swim from Lycra and a 0.3mm fabric that yields the same surface properties as neopreneóbut the compression means there's no buoyancy. It's crafted using Blue Seventy's Helix pattern, essentially a figure 8 turned on its side, with Lycra used in the Helix portions of the suit. Blue Seventy's Tim Moxey brought the spanking-new suits over from the Mainland for athletes including Stadler, Heather Gollnick, Bryan Rhodes, Mitchell Anderson, Karen Smyers and Linda Gallo. "There are 18 of them in the world, and 16 of them are here," he said this morning. Of the fabric, Moxey said: "It's over 50 times more slick than skin and four times more slippery than the other swim skins on the market."

Karen Duggan
April 30th, 2009, 11:29 AM
I think in another thread someone said that B70 is a new suit. Isn't it just the old Ironman renamed?

Perhaps they meant that they (B70/old Ironman) are now, as of 2007, getting into pool suits?

Ken Classen
April 30th, 2009, 11:33 AM
This is interesting, if the B70 is banned by FINA and by USMS for pool events would it still be banned from the 'non wetsuit' division of USMS OW races?

It most certainly would be banned for USMS OW National Championship events. Official USS and USMS OW events always follow FINA rules.

Dolphin 2
April 30th, 2009, 11:41 AM
You’ve got to hand it to Speedo for raking in a lot of $$$ off the suckers who ran out and bought an LZR for $450.

However Speedo (and all the other suit makers) will finally get their “Karma” and the lid gets popped off the can of worms when someone reveals that the suit companies paid off FINA in exchange for tossing all the rules regarding mechanically aided swimming devices.

In addition to the allegations of corruption at FINA, the legitimacy of the WRs set by Michael Phelps and others will also be brought into question.

This “suit technology” scam is really going to be like a case of food poisoning – a long period of nausea followed by a really messy ending. :bolt:

Dolphin 2

ande
April 30th, 2009, 11:54 AM
Karen,

there's design differences between the B70 Nero Comp & Point Zero

Point zeros have a:
flat string on the zipper,
bigger zipper,
zipper hood on back collar, and
zipper protection fabric on inside of suit.
PZs are for triathlons & open water.

Nero Comps have
no zipper string,
a small spring loaded zipper,
no zipper hood,
no zipper protection fabric
NCs are for pool racing




I think in another thread someone said that B70 is a new suit. Isn't it just the old Ironman renamed?

Perhaps they meant that they (B70/old Ironman) are now, as of 2007, getting into pool suits?

Fresnoid
April 30th, 2009, 12:30 PM
I'm pretty sure FINAs rules about DISQUALIFICATIONS say

Swimmers are not permitted to wear or use any device or substance to help their speed, pace or buoyancy during a race.


Ande

At one point, the East Germans were experimenting with methods of increasing buoyancy without using devices. The added buoyancy was internal. They never solved the problem of sudden uncontrolled loss of that extra buoyancy. However, there was an associated brief increase in thrust.

knelson
April 30th, 2009, 12:36 PM
Nero Comps have
no zipper string,
a small spring loaded zipper,
no zipper hood,
no zipper protection fabric
NCs are for pool racing

They also have a Nero for OW called the Nero 10K.

That Guy
April 30th, 2009, 02:12 PM
I think in another thread someone said that B70 is a new suit. Isn't it just the old Ironman renamed?

Perhaps they meant that they (B70/old Ironman) are now, as of 2007, getting into pool suits?

:agree:

Fresnoid
May 1st, 2009, 12:16 AM
At one point, the East Germans were experimenting with methods of increasing buoyancy without using devices. The added buoyancy was internal. They never solved the problem of sudden uncontrolled loss of that extra buoyancy. However, there was an associated brief increase in thrust.


:lolup:

Someone, anyone please post that you understood what I described.

orca1946
May 1st, 2009, 12:35 AM
That bieng said, who will come out with the next killer suit?

knelson
May 1st, 2009, 01:26 AM
:lolup:

Someone, anyone please post that you understood what I described.

They fed them lots of beans before races?

jroddin
May 1st, 2009, 08:40 AM
Fresnoid:

I read the same study back in the late 80s. Can we say, "tiny bubbles?" The swimmers were, umm, injected with air (and not by taking a deep breath!) to increase buoyancy during their races.

I also read about an experiment conducted by either the Germans or Russians in the 80s on drag force effects on swimmers. The study actually said that they took female subjects and towed them through the water both shaved and unshaved and both with and without swimsuits to measure and compare drag forces. Before Jimbo asks, it wasn't clear how extensive the shaving and without swimsuits portion of the experiment was conducted...:censor:

Hiro11
May 1st, 2009, 08:50 AM
The Olympics go just as Speedo intended. Phelps wins eight golds wearing the suit.
...
Am I missing anything?I like your theory, but just one point of clarification: I think Phelps only wore a full LZR in the 200 free and maybe the 4X100 relay. For all of the other events, he wore LZR leg skins. I was surprised that during the Olympics, no comment was made that in most events Phelps was lining up against guys in full bodysuits without one on himself. IMO, deep down inside Phelps doesn't particularly like the LZR.

This whole suit thing is a complete debacle. I think the problem started back in 2000 when FINA allowed bodysuits in the first place. We should go back to old school briefs, just to be on the safe side. It's like the movie "Aliens": "nuke the site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure."

SwimStud
May 1st, 2009, 09:02 AM
I also read about an experiment conducted by either the Germans or Russians in the 80s on drag force effects on swimmers. The study actually said that they took female subjects and towed them through the water both shaved and unshaved and both with and without swimsuits to measure and compare drag forces. Before Jimbo asks, it wasn't clear how extensive the shaving and without swimsuits portion of the experiment was conducted...:censor:

Oh great Jeff, put ideas for next Zones into his head...Jim: Leave the tow rope, razors and edge gel at home, nobody wants to try!
:bump:

ande
May 1st, 2009, 10:15 AM
Yes I heard cases of swimmers getting pumped up with air just before races.


At one point, the East Germans were experimenting with methods of increasing buoyancy without using devices. The added buoyancy was internal. They never solved the problem of sudden uncontrolled loss of that extra buoyancy. However, there was an associated brief increase in thrust.

ande
May 1st, 2009, 10:39 AM
The first tech suits came out in 1992 (http://www.usms.org/forums/showpost.php?p=128449&postcount=732) They were viewed with skepticism at first.



I like your theory, but just one point of clarification: I think Phelps only wore a full LZR in the 200 free and maybe the 4X100 relay. For all of the other events, he wore LZR leg skins. I was surprised that during the Olympics, no comment was made that in most events Phelps was lining up against guys in full bodysuits without one on himself. IMO, deep down inside Phelps doesn't particularly like the LZR.

This whole suit thing is a complete debacle. I think the problem started back in 2000 when FINA allowed bodysuits in the first place. We should go back to old school briefs, just to be on the safe side. It's like the movie "Aliens": "nuke the site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure."

knelson
May 1st, 2009, 11:00 AM
Yes I heard cases of swimmers getting pumped up with air just before races.

This reminds me of the Foster Farms TV ads where the chickens go to the plastic surgeon's office to get plumped up with salt water! "Very natural." I wish I could post a youtube link, but amazingly I can't find the video there.

Karen Duggan
May 1st, 2009, 11:26 AM
I'll quit before I have to wear just a brief!
:bolt:

knelson
May 1st, 2009, 11:31 AM
I'll quit before I have to wear just a brief!
:bolt:

We've discussed how to keep boys in the sport here in the past, but I don't think anyone suggested forcing women to compete in just briefs. I have a feeling that might do wonders for male participation!

Karen Duggan
May 1st, 2009, 12:20 PM
Wearing just a brief would add a whole new dimension to the effects of drag!
:lmao:

"So, if you are an B cup you can expect to lose 1.5 seconds per 25 in the 50 free, however, if it is breaststroke, you may lose slightly less time... in the backstroke races, well, hell, the girls would be flying everywhere. And who would remember to get the splits anyway!"

Hiro11
May 1st, 2009, 04:23 PM
Wearing just a brief would add a whole new dimension to the effects of drag!
:lmao:

"So, if you are an B cup you can expect to lose 1.5 seconds per 25 in the 50 free, however, if it is breaststroke, you may lose slightly less time... in the backstroke races, well, hell, the girls would be flying everywhere. And who would remember to get the splits anyway!"I see nothing at all wrong with your proposal.

nkfrench
May 2nd, 2009, 07:31 PM
How do swimmers benefit from a suit that provides compression (makes you smaller) AND a suit that provides buoyancy (makes you bigger) ?

Allen Stark
May 2nd, 2009, 09:25 PM
How do swimmers benefit from a suit that provides compression (makes you smaller) AND a suit that provides buoyancy (makes you bigger) ?

The compression doesn't particularly make you smaller,in keeps your muscles(and flab) from wiggling which reduces drag and possibly fatigue as well as helping you hold streamline when tired.The buoyancy may make you slightly bigger(by a trivial amount)but it makes you ride higher in the water thereby reducing drag.

mattson
May 5th, 2009, 04:50 PM
We should go back to old school briefs, just to be on the safe side.

But if you go even older school, like the 1920s, you are back to body suits. Although in wool, and cut like a wrestler's unitard.

Dolphin 2
May 6th, 2009, 10:23 AM
But if you go even older school, like the 1920s, you are back to body suits. Although in wool, and cut like a wrestler's unitard.

As I've said numerous times, I like the idea of just plain old 1970's era briefs (like Mark Spitz wore in the 72 Olympics). At that time, the idea was to minimize the role of the suit (and all the complications associated with "mechanical aided" swimming).

In addition to the can of worms of dealing with all the technical aspects of "suit technology", I personally despise the idea of swimming with a large portion of my body covered in waterproof material. I hated taking P.E. in junior high because of the "hassle factor" of getting hot, sweaty, and sticky in just a simple gym uniform. In high school however, I was able to take swimming and W-Polo (in simple briefs that provided maximum exposure to the cool water) and I really enjoyed P.E. instead of viewing it as a hassle. However with this tech suit stuff, the idea of having to put on -and swim in- a waterproof cocoon just brings back the "hassle factor" with a vengeance. :bitching:

Dolphin 2

thewookiee
May 6th, 2009, 10:36 AM
In addition to the can of worms of dealing with all the technical aspects of "suit technology", I personally hate the idea of swimming with a large portion of my body covered in waterproof material. I hated taking P.E. in junior high because of the "hassle factor" of getting hot and sweaty in a gym uniform. In high school however, I was able to take swimming and W-Polo and I really enjoyed P.E. instead of viewing it as a hassle. However with this tech suit stuff, the idea of having to put on -and swim in- a waterproof cocoon brings the "hassle factor" back with a vengeance. :bitching:

Dolphin 2


The suits are only used in competition, not high school p.e. classes,practice or lap swimming.
Since you don't compete in meets, this isn't an area that should be a concern for you.
And I am pretty dang sure the suits on waterproof...esp. when I get out of a race, I am wet on the inside and out after racing.

aquageek
May 6th, 2009, 11:44 AM
In high school however, I was able to take swimming and W-Polo (in simple briefs that provided maximum exposure to the cool water)...

Dolphin 2

Dolphin 2 - most of us who swim do it rather vigorously, not for the enjoyment of cool water on our body parts. I did wear a legskin in the one hour postal and noticed no difference in temperature. What was your experience with temperature when you wore a tech suit? You specifically mentioned you wore one once so please provide input.