Choose your suit wisely!

[letsrace]

No, this is not THAT discussion. Burn them or buy them, I am not writing to help further that discussion.

When I was first presented with the "tech" suits several years ago, I didn't have the budget to buy a full-body suit, so my first tech suit was made by cutting a Speedo Fastskin above the waist and installing a draw string. The only person to notice was Tracy Grilli, and she didn't razz me too much. I performed well in that suit in fly, back and free.

Later, when I tried a full body suit I was disappointed to find that my back and fly times were often not as good as my swims in leggings. At first, I chalked it up to my being a head case. In fact, I developed a term for these suits that didn't "perform" well. I said they had "bad mojo".

I tried tests throughout the years which seemed to confirm my belief. Then last year, I watched men's NCAA's intently to see how college swimmers "felt" about the suits. I was shocked to see that they were choosing suits in a way that confirmed my beliefs. Backstrokers wore leggings. Flyers wore leggings. Freestylers, wore full body suits. (If breaststrokers want my full report, let me know)

When I saw that, I threw out my "head case" theory and formulated a new one. I theorized that the leggings work better for back and fly either because they afford the wearer with greater mobility or they improve the swimmer's body position in the water in the way that a full body suit did not.

How could the leggings improve your body position? Well, my theory goes like this: if the suits give some sort of lift, either through buoyancy or some Bernoulli-like manner (yeah, I think that idea is unlikely), then the full body suits might not reduce drag nearly so much by lifting the whole body as the leggings do by lifting the legs alone. Or said another way, perhaps by rotating the legs up, around the center of mass, reduces drag more significantly than lifting the whole body upward.

Whatever half-cocked theory that I used as justification, I became pretty convinced that leggings have better mojo in backstroke and fly than the full body suits. In fact, my recent backstroke swims were done with the blueseventy leggings. Coincidence? Maybe. That is why I am interested in what other people have experienced.

[mpmartin]

Hi,

I'm a breaststroker and interested in what suit would work for me. In the last few weeks I purchased a used Fastskin pro full suit, but unfortunately right before my first race at zones it ripped. So now I'm not sure what to do.
I just know that I'm soured on Speedo and the fastskin.

[JMiller]

Or said another way, perhaps by rotating the legs up, around the center of mass, reduces drag more significantly than lifting the whole body upward.

hmmm.. interesting... never thought about it this way before. Technically though, ya, if your upper body had slightly more resistance than your lower body at moderate speeds (relative to freestyle) then yes, this could have a tilting impact on your center of balance in the water.

[Midas]

Hi,

I'm a breaststroker and interested in what suit would work for me. In the last few weeks I purchased a used Fastskin pro full suit, but unfortunately right before my first race at zones it ripped. So now I'm not sure what to do.
I just know that I'm soured on Speedo and the fastskin.

I'm also a breaststroker, and the blueseventy suits work for me (and many breaststrokers on this forum agree). I actually own a pointZero3+, which has the benefit of definitely being legal for the rest of the year. If you have a store around you that sells them, I would certainly recommend it. They can be had for under $300 and will likely last you for as many swims as you could possibly get in this year before they (possibly) become illegal next year.

[Tim L]

How could the leggings improve your body position? Well, my theory goes like this: if the suits give some sort of lift, either through buoyancy or some Bernoulli-like manner (yeah, I think that idea is unlikely), then the full body suits might not reduce drag nearly so much by lifting the whole body as the leggings do by lifting the legs alone. Or said another way, perhaps by rotating the legs up, around the center of mass, reduces drag more significantly than lifting the whole body upward.

Whatever half-cocked theory that I used as justification, I became pretty convinced that leggings have better mojo in backstroke and fly than the full body suits. In fact, my recent backstroke swims were done with the blueseventy leggings. Coincidence? Maybe. That is why I am interested in what other people have experienced.

I think you might have a very good theory. It is something evidenced by Phelps and Lochte as well. They wore leggings for IM/backstroke/fly last summer, but full tech suits for free.

One of my primary complaints about full body tech suits is that I felt that my performance in fly and back was subject to bad mojo as you call it. Maybe it is partially body type as well because there seems to be plenty of backstrokers and flyers and IMers that use full body tech suits and have very good results.

I haven't tried leggings, but I think I may give them a try and experiment a bit.

What leggings would you suggest and are they legal after 1/1/10?

Tim

[knelson]

I didn't have the budget to buy a full-body suit, so my first tech suit was made by cutting a Speedo Fastskin above the waist and installing a draw string.

Care to clarify this? At first you say you didn't have the money to buy a full-body, but then it sounds like you did have a full-body suit, but decided to cut it in half. I don't get it.

[ehoch]

If you look at the tapes from NCAAs - almost 95% of all people went with the fullbody - across all events. I would be shocked to see anybody without a fullbody at Worlds.

More suit = more floating = faster time

[Paul Smith]

Mike, great swims last weekend!

I think in general your observations are accurate...a lot of people find that the suits are to restrictive in fly/back. Case in point was last weekend Rich Saeger went back to leggings last minute before his 100 fly race, just couldn't get comfortable with a B70 in warm-up...but was fine in the 100 free with the B70 (46.7 by the way). But there are also some pretty impressive swims in those strokes with full bodies such as; Austin, Cavic, Randall Bal & Grevers...so no cut and dried answer.

The key I think is taking the time to "practice" and in my opinion the only cost effective way to do this is to start off with an older generation suit and work your way up so to speak. If you have never worn leggings start there, next season or if you can afford it buy an older model fastskin and swim in-season meets with both...worst thing is to have never used a suit, buying it and swimming your major meet of the season as the first time.

[Fresnoid]

...worst thing is to have never used a suit, buying it and swimming your major meet of the season as the first time.

That's my plan ^

[quicksilver]

leggings have better mojo in backstrokeLochte missed the team during the trails (in 100 back) wearing a full body suit.
He was only seen in leggings thereafter.

Piersol always wears leggings.

[Paul Smith]

Lochte missed the team during the trails (in 100 back) wearing a full body suit.
He was only seen in leggings thereafter.

Piersol always wears leggings.

Don't base your suit choice on what others found worked or didn't work...test for yourself.

[JimRude]

Don't base your suit choice on what others found worked or didn't work...test for yourself.

Word, Chuckles.

[ehoch]

Guys - all the leg only stuff was last year.

I will bet you any reasonable amount that all the winners at Worlds will wear a full body - at least up to 200 events.

I just checked the video of the 400 Medley Relay at NCAAs - A and B final = 64 swimmers and 64 full body suits.

http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/20795.asp

I know exactly how you feel about the feeling and the shoulder issue and comfort level - but I just think the full body suits are way faster like Blue 70 are way faster.

[ande]

Get jammers, legs & full body suits

test them out on fast swims for time in practice
see where the times fall

I've had some decent 50 back swims in practice wearing pro legs
I'm looking forward to trying B70 legs.

The thing I like about full body suits is I:
don't have to shave as much &
think they are faster

[NKMD]

Paul,
I do not think it would be a wise choice for the female swimmers to test out the legging suits.

Looking back, i mean the 80's and before. It was who can get into the smallest size suit.

Now, it is how much of your body can your suit cover you and how much neoprene can you wear and be legal.

And nope I have not tried the B70 or the lzr or the rise.

[Chris Stevenson]

Guys - all the leg only stuff was last year.

...

I know exactly how you feel about the feeling and the shoulder issue and comfort level - but I just think the full body suits are way faster like Blue 70 are way faster.

I would imagine Mike -- who has worn both full-body and leggings -- has experimented enough to know what works for him. It may be body-specific.

(Though it would be kind of scary to think that Mike's 48.4 100 back wasn't as fast as it could have been.)

I'll give it a try at some point. I would love it if the leggings were just as fast as the full body suit. I do have a new pair of FS-Pro legs that I got on sale, I'll try them in practice and see what they feel like. My main concern is that they seem to ride a little low, don't want to pull a Smith and shock the timers when I bend down for the start.

[ehoch]

has experimented enough to know what works for him. It may be body-specific.

Besides the obvious feel and so on - what do you think would be a valid test to compare suits ?

Just a one 25 with and without will not be enough - and it's somehwat difficult to keep alternating in a workout.

I was thinking on 2 seperate days - same timer -- do 4x25 without (or with suit A) and then 4 with suit b -- then switch the order the following day ??

Or you can just hire the Swimetrics guys and test with them -- I wonder what their numbers have shown ???

[Paul Smith]

My main concern is that they seem to ride a little low, don't want to pull a Smith and shock the timers when I bend down for the start.

Hey...lets get something staright here...I suffered an "equipment failure" unlike Geek who partakes of the "plummer butt" look on a day to day basis by choice.

[Paul Smith]

Paul, I do not think it would be a wise choice for the female swimmers to test out the legging suits.

I don't really see any problems with it?

[Chris Stevenson]

I suffered an "equipment failure" unlike Geek who partakes of the "plummer butt" look on a day to day basis by choice.

Pretty sure they offer some drugs for old guys like you with that problem...

[Paul Smith]

Pretty sure they offer some drugs for old guys like you with that problem...


I never liked you Chris...:banana:

[aquageek]

Hey...lets get something staright here...I suffered an "equipment failure" unlike Geek who partakes of the "plummer butt" look on a day to day basis by choice.

I'm uncomfortable with this type of attention from you, eyes up please.

[letsrace]

I would imagine Mike -- who has worn both full-body and leggings -- has experimented enough to know what works for him. It may be body-specific.

(Though it would be kind of scary to think that Mike's 48.4 100 back wasn't as fast as it could have been.)

I'll give it a try at some point. I would love it if the leggings were just as fast as the full body suit. I do have a new pair of FS-Pro legs that I got on sale, I'll try them in practice and see what they feel like. My main concern is that they seem to ride a little low, don't want to pull a Smith and shock the timers when I bend down for the start.
You are right, the FS Pro leggings do ride low AND I have had the string break at about the third wearing. Actually, I had lent the suit to someone in Austin last spring and it broke for him. Doh! Since then, I replace the FS Pro string before I start wearing the suit.

[letsrace]

Care to clarify this? At first you say you didn't have the money to buy a full-body, but then it sounds like you did have a full-body suit, but decided to cut it in half. I don't get it.

Sorry that I wasn't more clear. The suit that I was using was given to me by a friend to try. I ripped out the back on my first test backstroke start. I then asked if I could keep the remains, which became my first pair of leggings. Several years later, I got my first full-body suit.

[letsrace]

What leggings would you suggest and are they legal after 1/1/10?

Tim

THAT is the $210-$550 question. I am not worried about 1/1/10, because I intend to wear out perhaps two more suits by that point. I will probably wear a tech suit in just about every swim that I do between now and the end of the year. Perhaps that seems extravagant, but I agree with Leslie and Ande (if I have read them both correctly). I want to practice swimming fast (or faster faster) with the suits to perfect my swims.

Reading the blueseventy blog, I have faith that they will have a suit that is legal after 1/1/10. Will it be one of their current suits? I can't say, because I don't have enough insight into the workings of FINA.

[letsrace]

Besides the obvious feel and so on - what do you think would be a valid test to compare suits ?

Just a one 25 with and without will not be enough - and it's somehwat difficult to keep alternating in a workout.

I was thinking on 2 seperate days - same timer -- do 4x25 without (or with suit A) and then 4 with suit b -- then switch the order the following day ??

Or you can just hire the Swimetrics guys and test with them -- I wonder what their numbers have shown ???

Erik, I have been considering this same question. I thought about the 2 day test, but that has problems too. My day-to-day performances vary enough, I suspect, that they could taint the results. I like the Swimetrics idea.

The non-scientific approach that I took was to do 1x50 back last Saturday at the meet. I said, "if I do my best 50 time with the leggings, then I will use the leggings in the 100 back". I worried before the 100 that I might turn in a 49.8 and disprove my theory. "Worried" is not exactly the right word. I thought there was a 50/50 chance that I would do a 49.8.

[thewookiee]

Erik, I have been considering this same question. I thought about the 2 day test, but that has problems too. My day-to-day performances vary enough, I suspect, that they could taint the results. I like the Swimetrics idea.

The non-scientific approach that I took was to do 1x50 back last Saturday at the meet. I said, "if I do my best 50 time with the leggings, then I will use the leggings in the 100 back". I worried before the 100 that I might turn in a 49.8 and disprove my theory. "Worried" is not exactly the right word. I thought there was a 50/50 chance that I would do a 49.8.



But instead, you nearly break the GMU pool record set by a college age swimmer by going :48.49

[letsrace]

Honestly, that was as much a shock to me as anyone.

[thewookiee]

Honestly, that was as much a shock to me as anyone.

Mike...it may have been a shock to you, but those of us who got to witness the race, it was truly exciting. While I doubt I will ever swim the 100 back that fast, your swim did give me continued delight in realizing that I can continue to swim faster as I get older.

[Chris Stevenson]

Erik, I have been considering this same question. I thought about the 2 day test, but that has problems too. My day-to-day performances vary enough, I suspect, that they could taint the results. I like the Swimetrics idea.

The non-scientific approach that I took was to do 1x50 back last Saturday at the meet. I said, "if I do my best 50 time with the leggings, then I will use the leggings in the 100 back". I worried before the 100 that I might turn in a 49.8 and disprove my theory. "Worried" is not exactly the right word. I thought there was a 50/50 chance that I would do a 49.8.

At the NE meet earlier this year, you did go 49.8...was that with a full body suit, fully rested? If so, that's a pretty big drop in going to legskins...I would have a hard time believing that was just random variation.

Besides the buoyancy thing you mention, another explanation occurs to me: maybe the improvement is more about the compression/fatigue thing than buoyancy. Back and fly are very leg-dependent (more than free IMO), so the legskins are perfectly sufficient. The upper-body portion of the full suits do not effect the shoulders, triceps or most of the lats.

The Swimetrics measurements might miss this effect unless done properly.

[ehoch]

My day-to-day performances vary enough, I suspect, that they could taint the results.

I am thinking a 2 day test - but I would only be looking at the Delta on each particular day. If I am doing 6-8x25 all out - I am guessing that I will be more tired towards the end (although - sometimes I get faster as I go). So, I would take the average of each and just look at the difference for each day. Still a crapshoot though ...
That's why I am going to try to stick with the FS pro, full-body for my Free races - no matter what.

[Allen Stark]

It is unfortunate that we don't have the resources to try more than one techsuit.If I was independently wealthy I'd try Nero's and LZRs and Jakeds and Arenas in practice for each stroke and see which I like best.As it is I have a LZR and a B-70.The B-70 is faster in fly,free and back than any suit I have worn.I have only worn the LZR at meets swimming BR(I don't want to waste it's limited swims) and I am faster in it BR than in my B-70.I have never worn leggings in a meet.

[orca1946]

Letsrace has a very good point!! Does anyone have any tech info to see if this if true?

[letsrace]

At the NE meet earlier this year, you did go 49.8...was that with a full body suit, fully rested? If so, that's a pretty big drop in going to legskins...I would have a hard time believing that was just random variation.

Besides the buoyancy thing you mention, another explanation occurs to me: maybe the improvement is more about the compression/fatigue thing than buoyancy. Back and fly are very leg-dependent (more than free IMO), so the legskins are perfectly sufficient. The upper-body portion of the full suits do not effect the shoulders, triceps or most of the lats.

The Swimetrics measurements might miss this effect unless done properly.
The 49.8 was in the full-body, but there are a couple of factors that may have messed with that result. First, I was rested, but that was my first taper and shave. Over the last few years I have been doing two tapers at the end of season and have had significant performance improvements in the second one. Second, the NE meet was at least the 6th wearing of my blueseventy and although the suit was in good shape, I began to wonder if it was losing mojo (less water repellent, not as tight). Third, I swam a lot of races at that meet and on the first day of that meet, I swam a very hard 200 free, which may have taken something out of me on later swims.

So I don't consider the NE swim to be a fair comparison. The fall swim against you at Rutgers is a much fairer comparison.

Interesting point about the fatigue/compression thing.

[knelson]

The suit that I was using was given to me by a friend to try. I ripped out the back on my first test backstroke start. I then asked if I could keep the remains

OK, now we see how you operate.

PSA: never let Mike Ross borrow a suit!

[Chris Stevenson]

The 49.8 was in the full-body, but there are a couple of factors that may have messed with that result. First, I was rested, but that was my first taper and shave. Over the last few years I have been doing two tapers at the end of season and have had significant performance improvements in the second one. Second, the NE meet was at least the 6th wearing of my blueseventy and although the suit was in good shape, I began to wonder if it was losing mojo (less water repellent, not as tight). Third, I swam a lot of races at that meet and on the first day of that meet, I swam a very hard 200 free, which may have taken something out of me on later swims.

So I don't consider the NE swim to be a fair comparison. The fall swim against you at Rutgers is a much fairer comparison.

Interesting point about the fatigue/compression thing.

Now you are giving me bad mojo...for nationals I have an old B70 (5 previous meets) and the 100 back is the event after the 200 free. :)

I don't trust time-conversions between courses all that much, so the best thing is probably to compare your latest swims to the best swims you did in the 35-39 age group.

Your Rutgers swim (B70 body suit) was 1.10 sec faster than your 35-39 SCM record. Your recent zones swim (B70 legskin) was 1.13 sec faster than your old 35-39 SCY record.

At first glance, it doesn't appear that the body suit offers a substantial advantage over the legskins. For you, at least.

For me personally, this would be good news b/c I like the idea of leggings anyway (vs a full body suit), and I think there is generally fewer things that can go catastrophically wrong with legskins. A guess a broken string is one of them... :)

[The Fortress]

Now you are giving me bad mojo...for nationals I have an old B70 (5 previous meets)

Jim Clemmon's B70 has 60+ wears and he seems to be going pretty darn fast ...