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ehoch
May 6th, 2009, 06:46 PM
I think there should be a Masters Team Competition out there - besides the team scoring at Nationals --
Here is an idea I grew up with in Germany -- they hold team championships every winter and it's a great event.

It's based on a point system (FINA or USA swimming one could do) --

- the world record usually equals 1000 points and slower times are based on a calculation - for example a 50 Free in 30 sec is 348 points.

- every team swims every event twice. 2 people enter the 50 Free, 2 for the 100 Free and so on -- there are 16 events (or 18 if you add the 100 IM and 800 Free) -- so that means 36 total swims. You could add a couple of relays and make it 44 swims

- no team member can swim more than 4 or 5 times - so even small teams can compete -- larger teams could field multiple teams.

- now for Masters, we would use a conversion factor for the times and age groups - I think Chris Stevenson could come up with something fair really quick.

- the team with the biggest point total wins - no individual prizes.

In Germany they have Men and Women (for Masters) on the same team - or you could keep it seperate.

pdjang
May 7th, 2009, 10:50 AM
I'll second the idea because I've had some experience with this system.

IMHO, it is a lot fun and more exciting than regular meets. The team aspect and the scoring system motivates you to do your best regardless of the competition. You score more points by swimming faster - thereby helping your team by compensating for team members who are not as speedy in other events. It's much more team oriented than college dual meets. And as a bonus, all the teams usually gather for a big party (read really, really great beer) and food. All in all, it is great event and a very healthly way to consider the sport.

I was stationed in Germany from 1983-1988 and swam with a German swim team (Schwimmverien Weiden). I was the old auslander - 30 years old and swimming at the real schule twice a week. We had a kontact program and I went to try to improve my German. The high school kids were thrilled to have someone to practice their conversational English - so my German never really improved. But it was great life experience and we shared many good times. I got to swim in both the league meets and masters meets (went to the very first European Masters Champs in Blackpool, England).

Their perspective on sports (and life in general) was an eye opener to an American. If you don't know, there are no varsity college athletics - only club sports - which means no scholarships and no "big money" sports pressure. I was very impressed with their sports systems and can only shake my head at the way college sports in this country have evolved (contrast swimming with american football). People have very different motivation to participate in sports and there is (or was) a more community focus on athletics. I can't tell you how many volksmarches I went to, but I do have a ton of trinkets (plates, beer mugs, medals, etc) from many volksmarching weekends. These are non-competitive events that focus on getting people active by going for a 5 or 10k walk. While volksmarching has been imported to the US, it is not as big as it is in Germany.

Erik - thanks for starting this thread. It brought back many fond memories. I usually go to the Holiday Invite at Belmont and I've seen your name many times. I'll make a point to try to talk you in person this year (assuming we both make to another Grunion swim fest).

regards,
Philipp




I think there should be a Masters Team Competition out there - besides the team scoring at Nationals --
Here is an idea I grew up with in Germany -- they hold team championships every winter and it's a great event.

It's based on a point system (FINA or USA swimming one could do) --

- the world record usually equals 1000 points and slower times are based on a calculation - for example a 50 Free in 30 sec is 348 points.

- every team swims every event twice. 2 people enter the 50 Free, 2 for the 100 Free and so on -- there are 16 events (or 18 if you add the 100 IM and 800 Free) -- so that means 36 total swims. You could add a couple of relays and make it 44 swims

- no team member can swim more than 4 or 5 times - so even small teams can compete -- larger teams could field multiple teams.

- now for Masters, we would use a conversion factor for the times and age groups - I think Chris Stevenson could come up with something fair really quick.

- the team with the biggest point total wins - no individual prizes.

In Germany they have Men and Women (for Masters) on the same team - or you could keep it seperate.

Rykno
May 8th, 2009, 01:11 AM
- now for Masters, we would use a conversion factor for the times and age groups - I think Chris Stevenson could come up with something fair really quick.



over here at our nationals we use the FINA point system to determine which swimmers are selected for best Male/Female performance of the meet.

I am pretty sure that FINA has a masters table. because I have seen something with them at www.swimrankings.net (http://www.swimrankings.net)

I did a search for me name, and looking at the last meet registered my 50m breast 33.37 was only 504 points according to the 2008 system. but when I ask to show Masters Points it was 688.

bud
May 17th, 2009, 06:36 PM
I'm up for any method that avoids "the team with the most bodies wins" principal currently in place, and awards team trophies solely on skill and speed... not who has the most swimmers. At least that has been my experience for every USMS meet I've been to (which does not include Nationals).

Another way to get a team trophy is to get lots of swimmers in less populated age groups, typically early 20's and the "aging" set. I've seen quite a few individual high point awards go to folks in their 60's, 70's, and 80's simply because they showed up and did not DQ, frequently swimming a full slate of events, just to get points. (I tip my hat to them. I got my highest scoring meet that way.)

....

Ahelee Sue Osborn
May 17th, 2009, 11:14 PM
Every masters team that I know of is full of fast swimmers who never swim in meets - but LOVE to train.

Perhaps an idea could be that each club interested in participating, sanction an intersquad type of meet within a swim practice time.
Then the head coach submits results based on this home pool competition.

What I would love to see is these amazing swimmers "in club workout hiding" come forward and represent their clubs and US Masters Swimming.

I have been a coach on deck shaking her head at the speedy workout swims for several years!
Totally inspiring - but absolutely frustrating at the same time!!

tjrpatt
May 17th, 2009, 11:28 PM
Every masters team that I know of is full of fast swimmers who never swim in meets - but LOVE to train.

Perhaps an idea could be that each club interested in participating, sanction an intersquad type of meet within a swim practice time.
Then the head coach submits results based on this home pool competition.

What I would love to see is these amazing swimmers "in club workout hiding" come forward and represent their clubs and US Masters Swimming.

I have been a coach on deck shaking her head at the speedy workout swims for several years!
Totally inspiring - but absolutely frustrating at the same time!!

I swim with people like that everyday. I am always trying to get them to do meets and still no interest. From my weekday workout group, two people went to Colonies Zones. They are maybe 20 to 25 at this practice every weekday. Plus, there are 10 of us that can do sets of 100s on 1:10 or 1:15. Just crazy.

jim thornton
May 18th, 2009, 05:26 PM
- now for Masters, we would use a conversion factor for the times and age groups - I think Chris Stevenson could come up with something fair really quick.

Here's a cool link Chris provided in the past: http://www.vaswim.org/cgi-bin/rcalc.cgi

The problem with team competitions has long been the definition of "team."

Our Y team, for instance, gets 3 lanes to practice M W and Friday from 6:30 to 7:30 p.m. That said, I think we'd be pretty competitive against other groups of folks of a similar size who actually work out together.

But we'd be overwhelmed by these giant California teams with their 50 meter pools and 17 different masters practices a week for 1 1/2 hours to 2 hours at a time.

We'd be even more resoundlingly creamed by conglomerations of former NCAA stars that hale from all the quadrants of the country and only see each other one a year, at Nationals, where they convene to set records in relays.

Maybe their should be a category for Lilliputian Teams made up of people who actually practice together?

JimRude
May 18th, 2009, 05:43 PM
[Maybe their should be a category for Lilliputian Teams made up of people who actually practice together?[/quote]

I will shortly be establishing a new team, which you are welcome to join: The Little Lebowski Urban Achievers.

:banana:

orca1946
May 18th, 2009, 06:21 PM
I'm 63 & swim 11 individual events at state plus 4 relays. Let me tell you that I'm really gassed after 8 to 9!!
I do the 200 -500 =1,650 free
50 - 100 - 200 - fly
100 - 200 back
100 - 200 - 400 IM

oh yeah fly in the relays.
I like the idea of high point going to ONLY those that do the full # of events!!

Ahelee Sue Osborn
May 18th, 2009, 07:37 PM
Am I correct in understanding that this virtual competition would mean masters clubs submit the top time in each event by age-group?

If this is the case, it doesn't matter how large a team is or is not.

But does serve the club to have at least one swimmer male & female in every age-group.

Pretty sure all coaches who encourage competition are like me... trying to fill in the holes of missing ages and genders.

What are we hoping to recognize?
Depth or the fastest clubs?

ehoch
May 18th, 2009, 07:53 PM
Our Y team, for instance, gets 3 lanes to practice M W and Friday from 6:30 to 7:30 p.m. That said, I think we'd be pretty competitive against other groups of folks of a similar size who actually work out together.

But we'd be overwhelmed by these giant California teams with their 50 meter pools and 17 different masters practices a week for 1 1/2 hours to 2 hours at a time.


Come on - you are really selling "us" short here - we have at least 50+ different workout times :angel:

The great thing about the team competition I am proposing is that you can swim it locally, you would only need about 10-12 swimmers per team (the mega teams can enter more than 1 team) -- and you could form different leagues to compare against equals.