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kpipesneilsen
May 11th, 2009, 11:26 AM
Aloha!

I just recently found an entire disscussion thread pertaining to my choice to swim for a team in France at Worlds in Perth and other meets. I find it very interesting to read all this stuff WAY after the fact.

To clear things up a bit, here is a brief history of why I swim for a Athletic Club Boulonge Billancourt (ACBB), a mulit-sport team located in Paris, France.

In early 2007, I was looking for a international meters meet since I had just aged up to 45 and wanted to get a jump start on some FINA WR's. At Worlds in Stanford in 2006, I had met many of the ACBB team members through Duncan McCready (a UK swimmmer and friend that swims for ACBB) and had fun hanging out with them during that long meet. The French are VERY social (like me!) and we hit it off right away.

When I told Duncan I was looking for a meet, he suggested I swim the French SCM nationals in Angers and asked if I would like to join ACBB since you HAVE to have a FRENCH swimming registration to compete in the meet. I agreed since USMS cards are not accepted in France.

I had a great meet, experienced a lot of team spirit with ACBB, set a few WR and was a member of a ACBB relay team setting WR (a first!). I truly love being a part of a team and I miss this aspect the most when I travel to meets far and away.

Fast forward to four months prior to Perth, 2008. My regular USMS team San Diego Swim Masters (SDSM) is only sending 6 swimmers, all over 60 meaning no relays for me. ACBB had asked me if I would like to swim for them and since San Diego has no younger swimmers going to the meet I say yes knowing that this will cause controversy. The other option is to switch USMS teams to Mission Viejo, or NOVA and these are San Diego rivals. I know some really great people and coaches from those teams, but I would rather not.

In Perth, my husband Eric and I have a blast with our 30 neon orange and black clad teammates. If you were there, ACBB were the ones with the chicken heads on and crazy flag colored face paint. ACBB has a great coach, Ollivier (gets splits, videos each race...the whole nine yards as a coach) has awesome team spirit, and we have team dinners and tons of fun.

I returned to France in March of 2009 to compete in the SCM French Nationals in Dunkirk and the fun and fast swims continue with ACBB (43 teammates!). Yes, I set a few more personal WRs, but I was also a part of ACBB relay teams that set three WR records as well. In one relay we lowered our own WR record, but we accidentally took down two WR previously owned by Japan GOLD. Heck, we were only going for European records. Anyway, I could not be more proud!

After the meet, Eric and I traveled to Switzerland, UK and Germany where we hosted 10 clinics and then I spent a week in Paris hanging out with my teammates training and playing, as well as hosting a stroke technique clinic with the team.

I am lucky to say I have over 100 teammates in Paris I call friends. I have not been paid to swim for ACBB, however, the team is subsidized by the city so NO team member pays for entry fees or for a hotel at nationals.

That is the long and the short of it. I plan to swim for ACBB for as long as they will have me.

To clear things up even further...

When swimming under my French card the times I swim DO NOT count for USMS top ten or USMS National records. This means that I often swim the same events at a USMS meet to make up for it. They do count towards FINA Top ten. Before I swam a stroke in France, I made sure that USMS, Traci Grilli and others were aware of my situation and what I was planning on doing. The rule book was checked and I was given the OK.

I do not earn any French Records as I am not a French citizen. In fact, at French nationals I share the podium with the fastest French swimmer and she is the national champion.

I choose not to accept any European records (except for relays), but I could do so since I have been a member in good standing of a European Federation team (ACBB) since 2007. However, I prefer NOT to accept the recognition or record (like I did in Illinois) and to prevent this I have been in contact with both Walt Reid and the LEN records chair and truly hope that my wishes have been honored. I feel that setting WR is enough and do not wish to take away European records from deserving swimmers.

Yes, I am a professional swimmer because I teach other people how to swim fast at my swim technique clinics (www.aquaticedge.org) and make a living from it. However, I am NOT paid to swim by any team or sponsor.

Yes, I do like to set records but I am also a fair person. Back in 2007 in Illinois I had no idea that the state records were being given to me and when I found out, I quicky declined the honor. The reason for my registering with Illinois Masters that year was to be able to swim on relays with the amazing Nadine Day at YMCA Nationals...no other reason and certainly not to set Illinois State records.

For those of you who stood up for me and presented the facts, thanks! For those of you who were quick to jump my case, shame on you. You do not even know me. I am an OPEN BOOK.

That's all, folks. Questions? email me at aquaticedge@hawaii.rr.com

BTW At YMCA Nationals this past April I swam for MID DELMARVA YMCA- also known as the Maryland Crabs- in honor of my courageous friend Nancy Sterling who is fighting a battle with ALS. My USMS reg. is still with SDSM

analazy
May 11th, 2009, 05:40 PM
Hi

I was one who neither defend you nor judge you but wondering until when this situation (American nationally Master swimming in a French team…) would be clear.
My sincere congratulations for this exposition and what it represents.

The best!

mermaid
May 11th, 2009, 08:13 PM
You Go Girl!

Allen Stark
May 11th, 2009, 09:45 PM
I think you should swim with who ever you want.It seems fine to me.

joshua
May 12th, 2009, 09:42 AM
I don't even understand what the problem is that demanded such a detailed explanation. Any normal person would jump at the opportunity to work and live in Paris for awhile.

Qwerty
May 12th, 2009, 09:58 AM
Paris? Normal?

aquageek
May 12th, 2009, 10:40 AM
There's always a spot for you on our LMSC, and our team in particular.

Paul Smith
May 12th, 2009, 11:23 AM
I'll be sitting back waiting to see if any of the very vocal critics of "super teams", "regional teams" and advocates of the "if you don't swim for a club you train with" your not a "real" team crap step forward and challenge this...

My guess is that quite a few hypocrites out there that have blasted Team TYR, CMS, etc. have dropped her a line already asking her to come swim for them...

Nice.

Maybe someday FINA will figure out that modeling World Championships based on country vs. club might actually be interesting and enjoyable to a lot of folks.

The Fortress
May 12th, 2009, 11:35 AM
I wanted to get a jump start on some FINA WR's.

I had a great meet .. set a few WR and was a member of a ACBB relay team setting WR (a first!).

Yes, I set a few more personal WRs, but I was also a part of ACBB relay teams that set three WR records as well.

Yes, I do like to set records

Wouldn't want to disappoint you, Clydesdale! hahaha

Look, we're all adults, and can swim for who we want. I'm not a fan of faux "super teams" or of jumping around from team to team to team for the purpose of setting records. But to each his own. I can understand wanting to swim with your friends.

quicksilver
May 12th, 2009, 11:49 AM
There's always a spot for you on our LMSC, and our team in particular.

You're getting soft in old age. :)
No lashes with a noodle for swimming with the French.

aquageek
May 12th, 2009, 12:07 PM
You're getting soft in old age. :)
No lashes with a noodle for swimming with the French.

I figure if Paul can run all over the Western 2/3 of the country assembling a "team" there is no reason the rest of us can't as well.

quicksilver
May 12th, 2009, 12:36 PM
Interesting.

Are unattached swimmers allowed to band together at a big meet?
Kind of like the rogue relay team?

kpipesneilsen
May 12th, 2009, 02:18 PM
FYI: ACBB http://www.acbbmasters.fr/Site4/UK_Presentation.php

ACBB is NOT a super team as almost all team members (excluding me and few others) train together, socialize together, kiss A LOT (they are French after all), and hang out together...you get the idea. Look them up if you are ever in Paris!

Karlyn

Hey Barbie..no more digs about double dipping in the record book?

That Guy
May 12th, 2009, 03:19 PM
Interesting.

Are unattached swimmers allowed to band together at a big meet?
Kind of like the rogue relay team?

I remember swimming in a meet that was scored that way... and Unattached dominated! Yeah, go us, whoever we are!

To the original topic, I'm sure if I had the chance to be a pro swimmer, I'd do whatever I needed to do to make that work, up to and including putting a pink bow in my hair, waving pom poms, and dressing up as a dancing banana. :cheerleader::banana: Can I get paid now please?

chowmi
May 12th, 2009, 03:31 PM
If the French have ACBB, does Sweden have team ABBA? And how can I get that first B to face backwards?

SwimStud
May 12th, 2009, 03:35 PM
I'll be sitting back waiting to see if any of the very vocal critics of "super teams", "regional teams" and advocates of the "if you don't swim for a club you train with" your not a "real" team crap step forward and challenge this...

My guess is that quite a few hypocrites out there that have blasted Team TYR, CMS, etc. have dropped her a line already asking her to come swim for them...

Nice.

Maybe someday FINA will figure out that modeling World Championships based on country vs. club might actually be interesting and enjoyable to a lot of folks.

Listen dude; THT the rest is just, well, "Yawn! Meh!" ;)

scyfreestyler
May 12th, 2009, 03:38 PM
Listen dude; THT the rest is just, well, "Yawn! Meh!" ;)

Haha! And I forgot to bring my THT shirt to Nats...only realized it when I saw them on deck in Clovis.

kpipesneilsen
May 12th, 2009, 03:53 PM
If the French have ACBB, does Sweden have team ABBA? And how can I get that first B to face backwards?

ACBB and ABBA...too funny! You go girl! See you at the next meet...OKC?

Karlyn

The Fortress
May 12th, 2009, 04:42 PM
ACBB is NOT a super team as almost all team members (excluding me and few others) train together, socialize together, kiss A LOT (they are French after all), and hang out together...you get the idea. Look them up if you are ever in Paris!

Karlyn

Hey Barbie..no more digs about double dipping in the record book

Thanks for the lecture on French culture. Given that I am of French heritage and have been to Paris quite a few times, it wasn't really that helpful to me. lol

I was merely quoting your own recitation of your assault on the WRs. And you'll find, if you spend any appreciable time on this forum, that it is generally inadvisable to instruct people not to do things. Everyone speaks their mind. Everyone respects fast swimming too. In fact, not too long ago, after reading a Swimming World article, I started a thread applauding how fast you had swum this last year.

Karen Duggan
May 12th, 2009, 05:06 PM
French swimming Barbie meet Perfectly Tanned California Karlyn Barbie. (WR edition coming soon!)
:D


(Did you get my PM KPN?)

SwimStud
May 12th, 2009, 08:16 PM
French swimming Barbie meet Perfectly Tanned California Karlyn Barbie. (WR edition coming soon!)
:D


(Did you get my PM KPN?)

Who Karen...Pot Stirring Barbie...:bolt:

C'mon now girls play nice or at least sell tickets, and pull hair...

:bump:

abububba Cat fight?

knelson
May 12th, 2009, 08:48 PM
Here's the original thread, by the way:
FINA psych sheet - U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums

I guess I was the person to question Karlyn swimming for France in the first place. I'm perfectly happy with her explanation, though.

How come you didn't make it to Clovis, Karlyn?

Karen Duggan
May 12th, 2009, 09:17 PM
Just making an observation! :D

Any conflicts, that may inadvertently occur on this forum, should be settled in a practical place... the pool!

kpipesneilsen
May 12th, 2009, 10:36 PM
Aloha from Maryland,

The reason I was not at Clovis (BTW love that pool) is because I am on the wrong coast. In the past two weeks I have hosted a series of clinics in MA, VT, NH, NC, VA, DC, MD, CN and perhaps one more state I can't recall at the moment.

However, I WILL be swimming the Canadian SCM Nationals in Toronto this weekend. You see, the times I did in France in March don't count for USMS....

Karlyn

SwimStud
May 12th, 2009, 10:37 PM
Aloha from Maryland,

The reason I was not at Clovis (BTW love that pool) is because I am on the wrong coast. In the past two weeks I have hosted a series of clinics in MA, VT, NH, NC, VA, DC, MD, CN and perhaps one more state I can't recall at the moment.



Psst that's CT. I was at Zones that weekend. So you missed out on meeting me :D

chowmi
May 12th, 2009, 10:40 PM
ACBB and ABBA...too funny! You go girl! See you at the next meet...OKC?

Karlyn

I still haven't gotten over going to OK City yet. Do you actually have fun outside of the pool?? If next year's bonus 50 is fly, that would be a big factor, along with if you go.

thewookiee
May 13th, 2009, 08:26 AM
Psst that's CT. I was at Zones that weekend. So you missed out on meeting me :D

Awwwwwwwww.....lucky for her. :)

tjrpatt
May 13th, 2009, 08:31 AM
Aloha from Maryland,

The reason I was not at Clovis (BTW love that pool) is because I am on the wrong coast. In the past two weeks I have hosted a series of clinics in MA, VT, NH, NC, VA, DC, MD, CN and perhaps one more state I can't recall at the moment.

However, I WILL be swimming the Canadian SCM Nationals in Toronto this weekend. You see, the times I did in France in March don't count for USMS....

Karlyn

But, your times from Canadian SCM Nationals will count towards USMS, correct.

Ahelee Sue Osborn
May 13th, 2009, 09:52 AM
Not long ago a highly respected (and one of those super hard working) USMS officer kind of guys, said to me, "We're all supposed to be doing this for fun".

Karlynn, YOU ALWAYS find a way to make it FUN!

But you know how some of us get all team loyal and "over enthusiastic" about our home team.
I personally think it is pretty cool that you are friends with those French swimmers. They were crazy in Perth!!

The one single thing that USMS cannot offer you here in the USA is a swim meet in Europe!!

Also... on another thread we are talking about SCM vs SC National Championships.

Now again - I'm just askin since we're all friends here and you and I go back many years:

Do you feel more compelled to swim in "meters meets" for the opportunity to set World Records rather than simply USMS National Records that no one else understands around the world?

I'm not trying to be obnoxious here.
I happen to think that USMS National Records are the coolest thing going in my sport right now! :) :)

Good luck in Canada next weekend!
Ahelee

Paul Smith
May 13th, 2009, 11:14 AM
Here's the original thread, by the way:
FINA psych sheet - U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums (http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?t=10546)

I guess I was the person to question Karlyn swimming for France in the first place. I'm perfectly happy with her explanation, though.

How come you didn't make it to Clovis, Karlyn?

I'm curious how you (and others) feel about KPN swimming for San Diego but living in Hawaii?

I'm also curious what people think about Rowdy and Team Blu Frog?

No mention yet of the new scoring system that separted indiviudal clubs from combined teams...a simple solution, no? Oh but wait "SQAQ" competed in the "club" division...you kidding me?

knelson
May 13th, 2009, 11:37 AM
Since PNA competes as a regional club at Nationals it would be a little disingenuous for me to get worked up about KPN swimming for San Diego. It's really the same situation. I don't swim with most of the PNA swimmers on a daily basis, but I have established friendships with many over the years so there's definitely a feeling of team comaraderie. I'm sure the same goes for Karlyn and swimmers on the SD team.

Rowdy swimming for Blu Frog? Since he's their only member I say big deal. Hey, I'm still not a big fan of cherry picking talent to set relay records. I think it's a heck of a lot more impressive for a team like Walnut Creek to come in and set relay records with all their own swimmers. As for Worlds I agree that that should be scored by country rather than by club.

I think the regional versus club thing worked pretty well at Nationals. Yes, you know there's always going to be a gray area with teams like SCAQ that swim at many different pools over a huge geographic area, but what do you do? You can't really say "OK, to be a club team everyone must swim together at the same pool."

Paul Smith
May 13th, 2009, 11:47 AM
You can't really say "OK, to be a club team everyone must swim together at the same pool."

Ahhh....but that is exactly what many people here are arguing!

I guess the bigger question here is what is more important to the majority of USMS swimmers who compete at Nationals...records or involvement?

By allowing people such as myself to harass old farts to get of their butts and train again for a meet it grows our membership and IMHO is good for the sport...regardless of who they swim for. Do you think Switzer and Rowdy just decided out of the blue to come back into competing? There was more abuse and behind the scenes betting going on than you can possibly imagine...in this case there were no relays involved but next time there just might be.

We still have not been able to get Geoff Gaberino back in action again since he showed up in Hawaii...but we haven't given up. And who will he swim for if he does? Is that more important than him actually doing it?

knelson
May 13th, 2009, 12:16 PM
We still have not been able to get Geoff Gaberino back in action again since he showed up in Hawaii...but we haven't given up. And who will he swim for if he does? Is that more important than him actually doing it?

Nope. I agree. Getting people to show up is most important. Whether they swim for SBMSC (Smith "Bros" Mercenary Swim Club) or somebody else is definitely secondary. :)

Seeing past greats swim and swim well is always one of the highlights of Nationals.

P.S. I was talking to Pete Colbeck at the meet. I didn't realize he also swam at UCSB.

aquageek
May 13th, 2009, 12:20 PM
By allowing people such as myself to harass old farts to get of their butts and train again for a meet it grows our membership and IMHO is good for the sport...regardless of who they swim for.

I'm calling 100% BS on this. All you crowed about for weeks if not months before the glorious day of your 1970s disco era record setting relay reunion was about smashing the record, not about some altruistic "give-back" to the sport. You wanted the glory, the glamor, the press - you pimped yourself and three others out for a shot at lost glory, admit it.

JimRude
May 13th, 2009, 12:20 PM
Ahhh....but that is exactly what many people here are arguing!

I guess the bigger question here is what is more important to the majority of USMS swimmers who compete at Nationals...records or involvement?

By allowing people such as myself to harass old farts to get of their butts and train again for a meet it grows our membership and IMHO is good for the sport...regardless of who they swim for. Do you think Switzer and Rowdy just decided out of the blue to come back into competing? There was more abuse and behind the scenes betting going on than you can possibly imagine...in this case there were no relays involved but next time there just might be.

We still have not been able to get Geoff Gaberino back in action again since he showed up in Hawaii...but we haven't given up. And who will he swim for if he does? Is that more important than him actually doing it?

IMHO it is all about showing up and competing. The club/team scores do not interest me in the slightest, and while I have only swam for OREG since getting back in the pool in 2007, I would be happy to prostitute myself like a Smith if someone asked me to. That probably makes the relay records suspect when compared to the individual ones, but who cares? It's all about racing, reconnecting, and having fun. YMMV.

knelson
May 13th, 2009, 12:27 PM
You wanted the glory, the glamor, the press - you pimped yourself and three others out for a shot at lost glory, admit it.

I'm willing to give Paul a pass on this one. Of course going for the record is part of it. There has to be some compelling reason to get these guys together, after all. If it manages to get some guys back into the pool I'm all for it. The sport needs all the help it can get!

flippergirl
May 13th, 2009, 12:29 PM
You Go Girl!

Okay...this is where the tears well up and I can't go any further!
Ditto the mermaid!

aquageek
May 13th, 2009, 12:37 PM
I'm willing to give Paul a pass on this one. Of course going for the record is part of it. There has to be some compelling reason to get these guys together, after all. If it manages to get some guys back into the pool I'm all for it. The sport needs all the help it can get!

I agree but it was an unintended consequence, not some noble endeavor. But, the ends did justify the means.

Paul Smith
May 13th, 2009, 12:38 PM
You wanted the glory, the glamor, the press - you pimped yourself and three others out for a shot at lost glory, admit it.

And the chicks!!

Our Italian friends are pushing for a rematch in Sweden. They don't give a crap if we swim for the same club or not...

And for the record...I'm not paying Switzer a penny for "winning" the 200 free and taking down my record in Clovis because I couldn't make it!

Frank Thompson
May 13th, 2009, 12:40 PM
I'm curious how you (and others) feel about KPN swimming for San Diego but living in Hawaii?

I'm also curious what people think about Rowdy and Team Blu Frog?

No mention yet of the new scoring system that separted indiviudal clubs from combined teams...a simple solution, no? Oh but wait "SQAQ" competed in the "club" division...you kidding me?

My understanding is that Rowdy is a spokesmen for Blu Frog and they may sponsor him. I saw him at the YMCA Nationals and he was working with people that were giving out samples of the Blu Frog drink. Blu Frog had a truck with a big trailer parked outside the Hall of Fame pool. Some of the people giving samples of the drink gave out little blue towels that said Rowdy's rags. The people waved them every time he got up to swim. I am with Kirk on this and I don't think anyone has a problem with this if it is a sponsor arrangement.

I originally thought that Rich Saeger set Team TYR up this way before Worlds in that they were the sponsor for all of the swimmers on the team and they picked up the tab for everything but I was told it was set up as a neutral team for swimmers to join. In this day of professional swimming and sponsorship there is nothing wrong with this type of arrangement. Back in 1988, people had problems with this arrangement because there was no professional swimming.

I believe FINA will never change the rule about country representation vs club representation at the World Championships and have been told by people that are on FINA Masters committees that trying to do this would be like "charging a brick wall".

We had these discussions 4 years ago and rather than take a trip down memory lane I have provided a link to the related discussions here.

Controversy...Is it all about winning! - U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums

aquageek
May 13th, 2009, 12:54 PM
Our Italian friends are pushing for a rematch in Sweden. They don't give a crap if we swim for the same club or not...

Sad, have to go half way around the globe to find someone who agrees with you on this. No longer a record holder and now lobbying for support from Europe. All that's left for your total fall from glory is for the Eagles/Fleetwood Mac reunion tour to be canceled. I feel for you, man.

gull
May 13th, 2009, 01:38 PM
Paul, I guess it all depends on how you define "team."

Main Entry: team
Pronunciation: \ˈtēm\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English teme, from Old English tēam offspring, lineage, group of draft animals; akin to Old High German zoum rein, Old English tēon to draw, pull — more at tow
Date: before 12th century
1 a: two or more draft animals harnessed to the same vehicle or implement ; also : these with their harness and attached vehicle b: a draft animal often with harness and vehicle
2obsolete : lineage, race
3: a group of animals: as a: a brood especially of young pigs or ducks b: a matched group of animals for exhibition
4: a number of persons associated together in work or activity: as a: a group on one side (as in football or a debate) b: crew, gang

Paul Smith
May 13th, 2009, 01:40 PM
Sad, have to go half way around the globe to find someone who agrees with you on this. No longer a record holder and now lobbying for support from Europe. All that's left for your total fall from glory is for the Eagles/Fleetwood Mac reunion tour to be canceled. I feel for you, man.

I see you found those missing "Mr. Nasty" pills you've been looking for?

Still pissed because we rejected your application was rejected based on excessive levels of estrogen eh?

orca1946
May 13th, 2009, 01:57 PM
She swims for any team she wants, when she wants!

aquageek
May 13th, 2009, 01:57 PM
Still pissed because we rejected your application was rejected based on excessive levels of estrogen eh?

I guess having Manny Ramirez as my application co-signer didn't help my cause.

kpipesneilsen
May 13th, 2009, 11:10 PM
Miss Osborne...GREAT meet! You rock!

Yes, my times in Canada will count for USMS as I am swimming UNAT at the meet under my USMS card.

To answer the question about SCM or LCM WR vs. yards and USMS records...I can swim yards at a large number of USA meets in Hawaii, so I have no problem getting times for all the events and distances I swim. However, it is very hard for me, living in Hawaii (feel sorry for me here), to get SCM and LCM times. So, it is not about the records, it is more about opportunites to race in meters.

To answer why I still swim for San Diego (SDSM). Yes, we have a USMS team here in Kona (Kona Aquatics), however, I do not train with them for a variety of reasons and almost none of them swim in masters meets even when they here are in KONA! Eric and I have hosted over 10 masters meets in the past few years and the most number of particpants is about 12 people (many from out of town). Most of the time it is less than eight..talk about pathetic. If these people won't swim locally, do you think they are going to travel across the moat (Pacific Ocean) to swim a meet? Not!

The bottom line is that I still swim with San Diego to be a part of a good team and where I have a lot of friends. BTW: I have been a member since 1987 and only for half of 2007 did I swim for Illinois (to swim at Y nationals on relays with Nadine Day).

Iwannafly
May 14th, 2009, 07:52 AM
Way to let us suck you in to our twisted little community Ms. Pipes-Neilsen!:-)

SwimStud
May 14th, 2009, 08:33 AM
Way to let us suck you in to our twisted little community Ms. Pipes-Neilsen!:-)

Her journey to the dark-side will be complete if Karlyn would just switch to using the mnemonic KPN as her forum handle. That and joining one of Paul Smith's Monster Demolition Multinational Relay Conglomerates...
:bolt:;)

I think I'm going to join Geek's team for Atlanta just so there is some balance...

thewookiee
May 14th, 2009, 09:00 AM
I think I'm going to join Geek's team for Atlanta just so there is some balance...

Why Stud...why? You guys can be called referred to as the "runt and grumpy" show?

Paul Smith
May 14th, 2009, 09:15 AM
The bottom line is that I still swim with San Diego to be a part of a good team and where I have a lot of friends. BTW: I have been a member since 1987 and only for half of 2007 did I swim for Illinois (to swim at Y nationals on relays with Nadine Day).

Now I'm going to wait to hear from the naysayers that even though you may have swam for a team at one point in your life but no longer live in that area you shouldn't be allowed to swim for them any further...and trust me there are some folks who want to try and make this a "rule".

I'd love to see these whiners put as much energy into their training/racing as they do worrying about things like what teams other folks are swimming for and what records might get broken and/or team championships won.

Lighten up and have some fun will ya!

Better yet, maybe go out and do what John Smith did in Ft. Lauderdale a few years back. "Recruit" some teammates from your age group, high school or college days to get off the couch and have a reunion relay.

swimshark
May 14th, 2009, 09:36 AM
Now I'm going to wait to hear from the naysayers that even though you may have swam for a team at one point in your life but no longer live in that area you shouldn't be allowed to swim for them any further...and trust me there are some folks who want to try and make this a "rule".



There are? Seriously? No one said anything to me while I was swimming for Oregon the last 3 years while living in Virginia.

Karlyn, I wish I had known you were in VA. I would have loved to go a clinic of yours. My sister swam with you a few weeks ago in GA.

swimcat
May 14th, 2009, 09:55 AM
karlyn,
i lived in italy and for 2004 i was going to swim with the italian team where i lived trained. btw, when i lived there i was told i could only race international meets and not regular meets whatever that means. i met several americans in riccione worlds swimming for england, the italian florence team, spain and they were all 100% american ( but some had spouses from the other countries:)).
i am glad you had a good experience with the french.:)
another thing i am wondering about........................
we allow canadians and english and south americans to compete in our nationals but (not sure about canada) we cannot swim in theirs. can any canadians claify this?






Miss Osborne...GREAT mee


t! You ro






ck!


Yes, my times in Canada will count for USMS as I am swimming UNAT at the meet under my USMS card.

To answer the question about SCM or LCM WR vs. yards and USMS records...I can swim yards at a large number of USA meets in Hawaii, so I have no problem getting times for all the events and distances I swim. However, it is very hard for me, living in Hawaii (feel sorry for me here), to get SCM and LCM times. So, it is not about the records, it is more about opportunites to race in meters.

To answer why I still swim for San Diego (SDSM). Yes, we have a USMS team here in Kona (Kona Aquatics), however, I do not train with them for a variety of reasons and almost none of them swim in masters meets even when they here are in KONA! Eric and I have hosted over 10 masters meets in the past few years and the most number of particpants is about 12 people (many from out of town). Most of the time it is less than eight..talk about pathetic. If these people won't swim locally, do you think they are going to travel across the moat (Pacific Ocean) to swim a meet? Not!

The bottom line is that I still swim with San Diego to be a part of a good team and where I have a lot of friends. BTW: I have been a member since 1987 and only for half of 2007 did I swim for Illinois (to swim at Y nationals on relays with Nadine Day).

aquageek
May 14th, 2009, 09:56 AM
...team championships won.


When you use the word team I get really confused. By team I assume you mean a collection of great swimmers from any state west of the Mississippi who are capable of breaking a record. I tried to find this team or LMSC listed and was unsuccessful.

some_girl
May 14th, 2009, 09:58 AM
Ahhh....but that is exactly what many people here are arguing!

I guess the bigger question here is what is more important to the majority of USMS swimmers who compete at Nationals...records or involvement?

By allowing people such as myself to harass old farts to get of their butts and train again for a meet it grows our membership and IMHO is good for the sport...regardless of who they swim for.

Why? What does it matter to me or the people I recruit to swim for my team whether your friends swim or not? No one I know is going to Nationals cause of Rowdy or Geoff Garberino or whomever, and most people aren't training or going to set records: that is a very small number of people at Nationals, which in itself is a small number of USMS members. So I get that you like a rule for your friends, but is it really in the interest of the bigger organization? I'm unconvinced.

As far as the club divisions, yeah, including SCAQ is pretty BS: they are the equivalent of Metropolitan, which *is* a regional team. I guess I would say there is a difference between training at different pools because that is the only way your team can get enough pool time and just being an essentially regional team: one way to help define it might be to look at how many practice times overlap at different pools. I'm not losing sleep, but it is against the spirit of the rule change.

And don't worry, I am capable of both training and whining. In fact, my teammates can attest I do both at the same time nearly every day.

SwimStud
May 14th, 2009, 10:03 AM
And don't worry, I am capable of both training and whining. In fact, my teammates can attest I do both at the same time nearly every day.

You need to add a blog SG. That's where you can write about your whining and training... ;)

The Fortress
May 14th, 2009, 10:12 AM
Why? What does it matter to me or the people I recruit to swim for my team whether your friends swim or not? No one I know is going to Nationals cause of Rowdy or Geoff Garberino or whomever, and most people aren't training or going to set records: that is a very small number of people at Nationals, which in itself is a small number of USMS members. So I get that you like a rule for your friends, but is it really in the interest of the bigger organization? I'm unconvinced.

As far as the club divisions, yeah, including SCAQ is pretty BS: they are the equivalent of Metropolitan, which *is* a regional team. I guess I would say there is a difference between training at different pools because that is the only way your team can get enough pool time and just being an essentially regional team: one way to help define it might be to look at how many practice times overlap at different pools. I'm not losing sleep, but it is against the spirit of the rule change.

And don't worry, I am capable of both training and whining. In fact, my teammates can attest I do both at the same time nearly every day.

Way to not suck up.

Paul Smith
May 14th, 2009, 10:16 AM
Why? What does it matter to me or the people I recruit to swim for my team whether your friends swim or not? No one I know is going to Nationals cause of Rowdy or Geoff Garberino or whomever, and most people aren't training or going to set records: that is a very small number of people at Nationals, which in itself is a small number of USMS members. So I get that you like a rule for your friends, but is it really in the interest of the bigger organization? I'm unconvinced.

Actually you appear to "not get" what I'm saying. I do not support any change to the rules that would limit/restrict in any way who a swimmer swims for. And for the record no one from USMS that I know is pushing for this type of rule change, rather it is something I have heard individual swimmers/coaches toss around...just scary that there are people who feel that way at all.

some_girl
May 14th, 2009, 10:31 AM
Actually you appear to "not get" what I'm saying. I do not support any change to the rules that would limit/restrict in any way who a swimmer swims for.

Then perhaps you should do a better job of explaining yourself. Communication is the burden of the communicator. And from this end, you seem to think recruiting your old fast friends does something for USMS as an organization (as opposed to for you, which is totally chill, but you know, be honest ...). And from my end, restricting seems to build strong clubs, which I think really does help the organization. And even if it didn't, cherry picking for records is just a little tasteless.

[This space reserved for friendly looking smiley, if I believed in those things.]

Paul Smith
May 14th, 2009, 10:54 AM
you seem to think recruiting your old fast friends does something for USMS as an organization (as opposed to for you, which is totally chill, but you know, be honest ...).

Old? Absolutely!
Fast? Some yes, others not even close.
Help out USMS? Actually as a secondary "benefit" yes 9it increases menbership)...I think getting peope back into the water and having fun is a good thing.

If you knew anything at all about me you would know I have been USMS's biggest fan and its biggest critic...I tend to ignore/keep quiet about things I'm not passionate about 9looking at my post count you can probably get an idea how i feel). You would also know I don't swim for "records"...like I have said many times before put the world of "masters swimming" into what I consider proper perspective...I'm a middle aged adult who enjoys the freindships, health benefits...you on the other hand seem to have your panties in a bunch about anyone who might be "fast" or motivated by records...

[This space reserved for friendly looking smiley, if I believed in those things.]

The Fortress
May 14th, 2009, 11:16 AM
Not to suck up, but, unlike some, Smith would be the first one to congratulate someone breaking a record of his.

Aren't most of us who compete motivated in part by records? Personal records, age group records, team records, state records, zone records or whatever. That's great. As long as there's not excessive nattering on about it.

I like the idea of making masters swim buddies for life.

JimRude
May 14th, 2009, 11:23 AM
Then perhaps you should do a better job of explaining yourself. Communication is the burden of the communicator. And from this end, you seem to think recruiting your old fast friends does something for USMS as an organization (as opposed to for you, which is totally chill, but you know, be honest ...). And from my end, restricting seems to build strong clubs, which I think really does help the organization. And even if it didn't, cherry picking for records is just a little tasteless.

[This space reserved for friendly looking smiley, if I believed in those things.]

WTF?

If the vast majority of USMS registrants don't swim meets, but choose to participate for the health benefits, friendship, etc that come with group training, that is fine.

But don't rag on the small minority that join USMS for those things, plus like to compete at the highest possible level (be it local, regional, national or international).

Whether Chuckles Smith gets people to swim who are old HS/college teammates or competitors, or who walk in off the street from the soccer pitch, at least he's getting them fired up about swimming. What have you done?

Now I want to find a record of Smith's that I can break, to test Fort's theory on his sportsmanship...

Karen Duggan
May 14th, 2009, 11:33 AM
I hate to dog pile on some girl, but sorry, you misunderstood Paul. I took from what he said that he is recruiting people to bolster USMS, not set records, although that is a side benefit (if your friends are fast enough).

I was curious, what do you mean that "restricting builds strong clubs and that is good"?

jroddin
May 14th, 2009, 12:54 PM
Swimshark wrote:

There are? Seriously? No one said anything to me while I was swimming for Oregon the last 3 years while living in Virginia.

Karlyn, I wish I had known you were in VA. I would have loved to go a clinic of yours. My sister swam with you a few weeks ago in GA.

If you were currently registered in the LMSC where you now live, you would have gotten the announcement about Karlyn's clinics. It is doubtful the OREG newsletter announces DC/PV area clinics...:bolt:

(spoken by your local Registrar)

gull
May 14th, 2009, 12:58 PM
Our small team (Nitro) sent a contingent of only seven swimmers to Clovis (I was on call and could not attend) but performed well and did so with a lot of spirit (they were the ones wearing the orange shirts cheering on deck every time a Nitro swimmer was in the water).

How can one make the statement that "it's only Masters" on the one hand and then assemble a relay "team" of [selected, super, tip-top, top, top drawer, top-notch, topflight, world-class] swimmers from across the country for purposes of breaking records at Nationals on the other?

Look, I'm not advocating a rule change. But like everyone else who has joined Nitro, from fitness swimmer to Olympian, I have stayed because of the camaraderie and daily support of my teammates/lane mates. We train together at 5:30 am every morning and meet for breakfast after Saturday practices.

Peter Cruise
May 14th, 2009, 01:16 PM
Just a clarification to an earlier post- any USMS registered masters swimmer is welcome to compete at our Canadian champs; as I was saying in another thread, they are sometimes used as an alternative by US swimmers when your Nats are on either edge of the continent, also frequently used by aging-up to seize SC meter records. We would even let Paul Smith and any group of associated fossils he brings with him compete. Mind you, he'd probably miss his events after being felled by real Canadian suds.

pwolf66
May 14th, 2009, 01:37 PM
Swimshark wrote:


If you were currently registered in the LMSC where you now live, you would have gotten the announcement about Karlyn's clinics. It is doubtful the OREG newsletter announces DC/PV area clinics...:bolt:

(spoken by your local Registrar)


Shouldn't you be looking for a 24 hour wedding chapel instead of bugging people? :applaud: :applaud:

thewookiee
May 14th, 2009, 01:42 PM
Shouldn't you be looking for a 24 hour wedding chapel instead of bugging people?

Oh

some_girl
May 14th, 2009, 02:29 PM
WTF?


But don't rag on the small minority that join USMS for those things, plus like to compete at the highest possible level (be it local, regional, national or international).

Whether Chuckles Smith gets people to swim who are old HS/college teammates or competitors, or who walk in off the street from the soccer pitch, at least he's getting them fired up about swimming. What have you done?



Seriously, get over yourself. It is possible to disagree with people without assuming they sit on their ass doing nothing. And your buddy is both more gracious than you and more capable of defending himself, so he certainly doesn't need help.

I don't have a problem with people wanting to race and swim fast — I am part of a team because I love to race. However, the impression I got (and was since vaguely dispelled by Mr. Smith) is that he seemed to think recruiting people for pseudo-teams to break records somehow benefited the organization in ways other than the addition of those particular extra bodies at that particular moment. I find that unfathomable in the sense that no one is joining my club in NYC so they can see some old farts swim crazy fast. And most people (being pretty far from records themselves) do not, in my experience, care about them as much as this forum might suggest. When my teammates or friends break a record, I am happy because I love them and they got something they wanted, but it certainly doesn't get me up for practice at 5.30 or on a plane to Austin.

What does is my teammates. And to answer Karen, that is what I mean by some restrictions on clubs can help. As I argued ages ago in the super-teams threads, it seems to me that big, strong, cohesive clubs with good traditions do the most good for USMS as an organization: they run good meets (when they have the pools), they have good practices at many times, they have a diverse membership that means more people feel like they belong, they have the money to hire good coaches, and they keep people coming back.

In the questions of team competition, having a strong team that can contend for good placement is a great recruitment tool (the number of people we get out to help up at NE Champs, who then stay on is pretty substantial), but of course to me that mostly valuable if it feeds back into an actual club instead of a virtual one. Team Superstud with people all over isn't building a viable grassroots infrastructure in a particular place and at the same time may be reducing other teams' ability to do so.

And in that sense, super-teams or pseudo-teams are bad for the run-of-the-mill swimmer. They may bring in some fast folks at the very top but perhaps at the expense of creating the cohesive teams that keep average folks coming back.

I hope that is some better communication on my end. It definitely isn't meant as an attack on one person's decision at one point: systemically I think it has flaws.

swimshark
May 14th, 2009, 02:37 PM
Swimshark wrote:


If you were currently registered in the LMSC where you now live, you would have gotten the announcement about Karlyn's clinics. It is doubtful the OREG newsletter announces DC/PV area clinics...:bolt:

(spoken by your local Registrar)

Actually, I am registered and am vice president of the LMSC where I live. I have been since December. No notice came to me. Now, take Paul's advice and go find that wedding chapel! :) :bolt:

Paul Smith
May 14th, 2009, 02:45 PM
Our small team (Nitro) sent a contingent of only seven swimmers to Clovis (I was on call and could not attend) but performed well and did so with a lot of spirit (they were the ones wearing the orange shirts cheering on deck every time a Nitro swimmer was in the water).

How can one make the statement that "it's only Masters" on the one hand and then assemble a relay "team" of elite swimmers from across the country for purposes of breaking records at Nationals on the other?

Look, I'm not advocating a rule change. But like everyone else who has joined Nitro, from fitness swimmer to Olympian, I have stayed because of the camaraderie and daily support of my teammates/lane mates. We train together at 5:30 am every morning and meet for breakfast after Saturday practices.

I will only speak for myself...I have swam with 20+ clubs this year all over the country. When I'm at home I routinely swim with 3 different clubs depending on the day. I swim unattached for in-state meets because I don't want to have to "choose" between the clubs. When I travel to nationals I proudly swim for Arizona's combined team...I had the pleasure of swimming at Worlds with Team TYR and getting a chance to swim with guys I swam against in college/USA meets and in some case have't seen for years was one of my more enjoyable experiences in masters swimming...Unlike you Gull I don't "rate" the quality of my friendships/associations based on pool time or masters swimming records...so I would appreciate you getting of the holier than thou bandwagon as well as dispense with the BS "elite" label.

Go Team Blu Frog!

Karen Duggan
May 14th, 2009, 02:53 PM
Gull! Nice to "see" you, virtually that is. Thank you for answering the question that plagued our team. Where is Nitro from? We looked in the program under the rosters but all it said was NITRO. Not particularly helpful.

What city are you guys in? The main reason we noticed your team was because of the comraderie on deck. Very cool :applaud:

SomeGirl- now I get it. It's hard for me sometimes to "get" stuff, b/c of the way we (the collective we) communicate on a computer screen!

In another thread I thought that you mentioned you moved from CA to NY. Where did you live in CA?

gull
May 14th, 2009, 02:59 PM
Gull! Nice to "see" you, virtually that is. Thank you for answering the question that plagued our team. Where is Nitro from? We looked in the program under the rosters but all it said was NITRO. Not particularly helpful.

What city are you guys in? The main reason we noticed your team was because of the comraderie on deck. Very cool.

We are in Cedar Park, a suburb of Austin.

Mr. Smith, the term "elite" was not meant to be a slur. My apologies.

pwb
May 14th, 2009, 03:06 PM
My :2cents::


As Moses (not Ed) said, "Let my people go!" Swim for whoever you want, train wherever you want and compile whatever relays you want for whatever team you want.
In an age where many of us have a "home pool" for and a "home team" for training, but spend time working out by ourselves or on the road while traveling on business and pleasure, limiting oneself to a team simply because you live there and train some portion of your time there seems, well, limiting.
As for regional teams like SCAQ, I think they are great. I happen to train with one, Sun Devil Masters, which offers workouts at multiple pools and times in the Tempe/Scottsdale area. The coaching level has improved dramatically since they "took over" the old Masters program we had at our pool at Cactus. I don't think a "team" has to workout and train at the same pool. I've never done a single workout at Sun Devil's main facility at ASU, but I still consider them to be my team. Extending that out with my relatively libertarian view of the world, why should I then care if people who happen to live in different parts of the country or world assemble themselves into a team?
My long term vision is to assemble a "Brundage Masters" relay team at the 2020 Nationals when my Dad should still be young enough and my older 2 daughters old enough to assemble a multi-generational mixed relay. Not to set records, but to have FUN! So, I certainly don't want rules in my way ... will just have to convince the old man to give up his allegiance to those cohesive Virginia Masters:)
I never realized that anyone seriously paid attention to the team titles at Nationals. It's basically a volume game. If we wanted team titles and scoring that had more meaning, we'd impose some limits akin to NCAAs.
As for relays, while they're fun and good, since they rarely have a real relay (e.g., 800 free relay), they just don't matter beyond fun to a non-sprinter like me.

Karen Duggan
May 14th, 2009, 03:21 PM
Because Walnut Creek has won a lot of titles I'd like to chime in on that one.

We live in a huge swimming region (the Bay Area, more specifically the East Bay). I think the only sport more popular among kids is soccer. Most of us grew up doing either summer rec swimming or USA-S, or both. Because of this we have a large "pool" of potential teammates in Masters. Obviously, the weather helps (90s-to low 100s from June-Sept) considerably with swimming (although the winters SUCK in an outdoor pool, with snow on the mtn and temps in the hi 20s and low 30s).

That being said, I don't know of anyone on our team that has EVER mentioned winning the team title. We know we won, but it's not a bragging thing at all. In fact, the one thing we were talking about today was how pathetic we feel in the water after tapering!

The only time I ever see our titles mentioned is when Kerry is being interviewed for the newspaper, or he hangs the banner in the office. And it doesn't stay up for long. Actually, come to think of it, where are all of our banners?! They have never been displayed for more than a week or so, where does he put them? I'll have to ask!

So, I for one, think that the titles help build the program even more and that is all. It not only builds our team but also Pacific and in turn USMS.
:2cents:

Paul Smith
May 14th, 2009, 03:47 PM
Not to suck up, but, unlike some, Smith would be the first one to congratulate someone breaking a record of his.

Actually my reactions are usually:

1) If I'm in the race when it happens to kick, pull on or do any other possible thing to throw them off so as to take the win/retain the record...this would include strategic suit malfunctions on/behind the blocks before the race.

2) If at home a vodoo doll works nicely

3) If at the event but on the deck watching...the stand up and scream "die, die die" is always nice

Karen Duggan
May 14th, 2009, 03:51 PM
Paul #3 just has that visual for me.
:lmao:

gull
May 14th, 2009, 03:52 PM
I have amended my post to remove offensive terminology.

I did not know that "fast-lane" was a synonym for "elite."

aquageek
May 14th, 2009, 03:55 PM
Karen Duggan has the second best coach in the country, but only by a slim margin!!! Kerry is awesome.

The Fortress
May 14th, 2009, 03:58 PM
3) If at the event but on the deck watching...the stand up and scream "die, die die" is always nice

Niiiice! Is that an urban myth?

Gull, I'm with you on the Nitro love. I like my small local team too, and enjoy swimming relays with them on the rare occasion when we have enough swimmers to do so. And we were quite pleased, even gloating for a nanosecond or two, about winning the medium team category at Zones for the first time in years.

I think the key is swimming with friends or, in Patrick's case, :), family. I'd love to do relays with friends. Not so much strangers though, just to set records. That doesn't rock my world at all.

Karen Duggan
May 14th, 2009, 04:49 PM
I can't wait to swim relays with my kids. :angel:
Mr. B I think that is awesome.
Hell, with four, I'm living with a relay.
:agree:

Karen Duggan
May 14th, 2009, 04:50 PM
Karen Duggan has the second best coach in the country, but only by a slim margin!!! Kerry is awesome.

Surely, you jest!

gull
May 14th, 2009, 06:49 PM
Everyone swims Masters for different reasons, all perfectly legitimate. But this story illustrates what I like about it. A few days before Nationals, my teammates were standing around the pool discussing the order on the relays. One of them, a swimmer who had not been on any of the relays last year, made the comment that they really needed Alex or Ron, neither of whom would be going to Clovis. To which Steve Unruh (national champion in the 50 free, men's 40-44) turned to him and said, "No we don't. We're swimming with the guys we've got." The relay placed second, and the swimmer in question split a personal best.

aquageek
May 14th, 2009, 07:22 PM
Everyone swims Masters for different reasons, all perfectly legitimate.

I swim for free coffee, but, sadly, that is no longer an annual event for me.

gull
May 14th, 2009, 09:11 PM
I swim for free coffee, but, sadly, that is no longer an annual event for me.

My wife told me that I could not make any more coffee bets with you. She also said that you should pick on someone your own age.

some_girl
May 14th, 2009, 10:38 PM
In another thread I thought that you mentioned you moved from CA to NY. Where did you live in CA?

I grew up in Orange County, mostly Huntington Beach, but also Santa Ana. Actually, last time I was home visiting, I swam for Ahelee. She got to witness my utterly tragic backstroke.

thewookiee
May 15th, 2009, 07:40 AM
She also said that you should pick on someone your own age.

That will be hard. There aren't that many people as old or as ugly as Geek. If my dog had his face, I would shave it's butt and teach it to walk backwards.

Iwannafly
May 15th, 2009, 07:45 AM
...with snow on the mtn and temps in the hi 20s and low 30s).



Does Mt. Diablo really count as a mountain? I know that 'mountain' is in the name, but seriously, even the Blue Ridge mountains are higher than that. It should be called Diablo Hill! What's the elevation at the top,
I used to live in Pittsburg (or Gun Point as I once heard someone refer to it).


Just my lame attempt at hijacking the thread.

aquageek
May 15th, 2009, 08:03 AM
MShe also said that you should pick on someone your own age.

I apologize, Gramps. I'll go back to picking on those who find swimming 101 yards to be a herculean challenge, such as the Fur Trader himself.

thewookiee
May 15th, 2009, 08:10 AM
I apologize, Gramps. I'll go back to picking on those who find swimming 101 yards to be a herculean challenge, such as the Fur Trader himself.


Pretty sure I can find a few witnesses that will vouche for me being pretty good for events over 101 yards. Better yet, why don't you go get your magnifying glass, so that your 90 year old eyes can look at zone meet results.

tjrpatt
May 15th, 2009, 10:13 AM
Pretty sure I can find a few witnesses that will vouche for me being pretty good for events over 101 yards. Better yet, why don't you go get your magnifying glass, so that your 90 year old eyes can look at zone meet results.

I witnessed your 200 breast at Zones.

thewookiee
May 15th, 2009, 10:21 AM
I witnessed your 200 breast at Zones.

Thank Ya Tom!


@ Geek :mooning:

CreamPuff
May 15th, 2009, 10:52 AM
I swim for free coffee, but, sadly, that is no longer an annual event for me.

:applaud:

I swim so I can wear the Nike cut out suits size 28 (which I pay for). Saw on the tag that it also says Girls Size 12. Now that's fun! :bliss:

aquageek
May 15th, 2009, 11:08 AM
I witnessed your 200 breast at Zones.

I think this says it all. Remember, breast is only done when the boat capsizes or you need a rest. But, I'll give you credit. What happened to the grand plan for the 500?

Boy, those CZ people sure are a bunch of suckers for a Southern accent.

thewookiee
May 15th, 2009, 11:14 AM
I think this says it all. Remember, breast is only done when the boat capsizes or you need a rest. But, I'll give you credit. What happened to the grand plan for the 500?

Boy, those CZ people sure are a bunch of suckers for a Southern accent.

I will do it at somepont. Finally figured out part of my freestyle trouble...left back/neck muscles have lots of knots in them, so it makes it difficult to swim freestyle any length of time. Get those out,then I should be able to whip your boney butt.


The southern accent is a thing of beauty

Karen Duggan
May 15th, 2009, 11:31 AM
Mt. Diablo's elevation is 4,000ft.

Ahelee Sue Osborn
May 15th, 2009, 11:42 AM
I grew up in Orange County, mostly Huntington Beach, but also Santa Ana. Actually, last time I was home visiting, I swam for Ahelee. She got to witness my utterly tragic backstroke.

OMG - I hope I helped you SOME_GIRL!

I always hated backstroke and was tragic also, until just a few short years ago... so I sincerely appreciate any swimmer's struggle with it.
I learned some tricks to feel the love of swimming face up. Always try to shed some light on that for those who are in the same boat I was about 4 years ago!

When are you coming back to Orange County again?

Not sure what this has to do with Karlynn swimming for France.
Maybe time to end the thread!

thewookiee
May 15th, 2009, 11:47 AM
Not sure what this has to do with Karlynn swimming for France.
Maybe time to end the thread!

This thread ran it's course after page 1. Now, it is just living by those of us that are 2 lazy to start a new one, so we just hijack an existing one.

qbrain
May 15th, 2009, 03:25 PM
I swim so I can wear the Nike cut out suits size 28 (which I pay for).

Me too.

swimshark
May 16th, 2009, 02:32 PM
The southern accent is a thing of beauty

Gag! :afraid:

tjrpatt
May 16th, 2009, 02:47 PM
This thread is "so 6 days ago"!!!!!!!!