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thewookiee
May 19th, 2009, 10:57 AM
http://www.fina.org/project/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2389&Itemid=9


Here is the approved suit list from the FINA website.

knelson
May 19th, 2009, 11:07 AM
So does this mean the Blue Seventy Nero is not allowed effective immediately? That's a little shocking if true.

Speedo
May 19th, 2009, 11:12 AM
"136 swimsuits to be modified in accordance with “Dubai Charter” rule 3.1 c), as they don’t fulfil the requirement stating that “swimsuit material shall not be constructed to or include elements/systems which create air/water trapping effects during use”. The manufacturers have now a deadline of maximum 30 days (until June 19, 2009) to resubmit the same swimsuit for FINA approval, with the corresponding corrections (“Dubai Charter” rule 4.3 d)."

Got this here: http://www.fina.org/project/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2390&Itemid=108

Karen Duggan
May 19th, 2009, 11:12 AM
I did not see B70 on there at all. Is that right?

thewookiee
May 19th, 2009, 11:20 AM
I did not see B70 on there at all. Is that right?

Looks like it for right now. That list came directly from the FINA website. Wonder what Deano has to say now.

CreamPuff
May 19th, 2009, 11:21 AM
LOL! So much for my spare B70 Nero I never got to wear.

Back to Nike Cut outs and Polys for me even during meets as I never bought a FSPro and I'm beyond tired of the tech suit confusion. At least I am aware of my rude awakening to come. I entered a LCM meeter meet w/ my B70 times. Seeded w/ the men. Should prove . . . funny and :eeew:

want2beafish
May 19th, 2009, 11:21 AM
I guess I don't quite understand... these are all the newer suits, right? What about the discontinued older tech suits (i.e., the Tyr Aquapel, Aquashift, etc.)? I thought they were automatically OK -- guess they were not submitted for approval since they have been discontinued?

tjrpatt
May 19th, 2009, 11:22 AM
are the TYR Tracer banned then? What the heck is the A12 suits? Who knew that Asics sold swim suits?

lefty
May 19th, 2009, 11:33 AM
I see a few Jaked suits on the list. What suits are those?

The Fortress
May 19th, 2009, 11:35 AM
Looks like it for right now. That list came directly from the FINA website. Wonder what Deano has to say now.

Really. I recall B70 reps saying the suit would be legal until the end of 2009. It irks me to no end that the more performance enhancing suits like the LZR and Jaked made the list and B70 doesn't.

KeithM
May 19th, 2009, 11:37 AM
I see a few Jaked suits on the list. What suits are those? JO1 is gone.

I think JO3 has been in development in anticipation of FINA's ruling.

aquageek
May 19th, 2009, 11:41 AM
Is the FS Pro legskin legal or not? I would assume it is legal since every other Pro is legal.

Lump
May 19th, 2009, 11:47 AM
Being a swimmer of the 80's-90's this whole suit thing is a joke to me, really just disappointing to be honest. Swimming is now becoming like NASCAR or something, everyone looking for an equipment edge. To me at least swimming was better back when everyone wore nothing more fancy than a paper brief suit....at least it was about the "swimming" and "training", not a fashion show.

Now, that being said, I know it makes swimming exciting with the new incredible times, puts swimming the limelight, etc. To me, it doesn't make it better though.

MY :2cents:. I'm just over all this suit BS.

knelson
May 19th, 2009, 11:47 AM
Just felt like saying "I told you so."


7. Speedo runs crying to FINA. They convince FINA to impose news rules on suits that will lead to the B70 suit being banned, while allowing the pure, snowy white LZR to remain legal.

from Speedo: epic fail - U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums

BillS
May 19th, 2009, 11:47 AM
Looks like I'm back to my FS Pro for a while. Sigh. Farewell, B70, I miss thee already.

Knightswimmer2
May 19th, 2009, 11:50 AM
are the TYR Tracer banned then? What the heck is the A12 suits? Who knew that Asics sold swim suits?


Yea any clarification on what the tyr suits are...Ive never heard of A12, A7, or A10...

pwolf66
May 19th, 2009, 11:58 AM
My understanding is that the B70 Nero Comp is no longer 'legal' but the PointZero3 is still 'legal', am I wrong?

thewookiee
May 19th, 2009, 12:03 PM
My understanding is that the B70 Nero Comp is no longer 'legal' but the PointZero3 is still 'legal', am I wrong?

Based on the list, there is nothing from B70 that is currently legal.

Paul Smith
May 19th, 2009, 12:08 PM
My understanding is that the B70 Nero Comp is no longer 'legal' but the PointZero3 is still 'legal', am I wrong?

Paul, unless you're seing something I'm not there are no Blue 70 suits on this list at all. The only question now is how quickly will USMS react to this announcement? Although its doubtful that USMS would follow FINA and not allow the recognition of any records set while swimming in a banned suit they certainly could.

...My suggestion is that if you're a masters swimmer going after any world records you shouldn't be using a suit that is not approved.

By the way...good take on this whole deal here:

http://scaq.blogspot.com/2009/05/usa-today-fina-to-announce-approved.html

USA Today: "FINA to announce approved swimsuit list!"
Attention FINA: If a FINA staff member is being paid by a suit manufacturer, they should not be allowed on a FINA commission deciding which suits get to stay and which suits have to go.

From USA Today: "... LAUSANNE, Switzerland — Swimming's governing body was preparing to announce Tuesday which high-tech racing suits will be approved for this year's world championships.
The list has been created by a special commission which included national team head coaches Mark Schubert of the United States and Australia's Alan Thompson. ..." more

ehoch
May 19th, 2009, 12:14 PM
BIG WINNERS:

SPEEDO SPEEDO SPEEDO

All suits are approved !


BIG LOSERS:
BLue 70 (and who bought them)
TYR -- did you see, almost none of their suits are approved
Jaked and the people who set the records in the new Jaked, we will see how much it was the suit and how much it was the swimmer when Phelps destroys the Spaniard in the 100 Fly ....

pwolf66
May 19th, 2009, 12:15 PM
Except that when this whole 'retesting' thing began, I thought that suits introduced in 2007 and before were not going to be retested in Phase 1 so would still be legal until 1 Jan 2010. Apparently that is incorrect.

letsrace
May 19th, 2009, 12:18 PM
I think the list is likely to be shown to be inaccurate. Really. The Jaked suit and the Rocket suits are legal but the B70 isn't? Does that make sense? I would wait before burning your suits.

ourswimmer
May 19th, 2009, 12:20 PM
Except that when this whole 'retesting' thing began, I thought that suits introduced in 2007 and before were not going to be retested in Phase 1 so would still be legal until 1 Jan 2010. Apparently that is incorrect.

That is what I thought too, which would explain why (say) the Tyr Aquapel isn't on the list. But then why would the Fastskin or Aquablade be on it?

The Fortress
May 19th, 2009, 12:24 PM
And how stupid would it be for the B70 Point Zero to be legal but the others not?!

Isn't the Rocket Science suit completely impermeable as well?

knelson
May 19th, 2009, 12:26 PM
Someone commented on floswimming that the list mentions the "LZR Racer Pro." I don't think Speedo has ever used the word "Pro" in the LZR before. So is this the current LZR model or a different one? Hmmm.

Didn't USMS announce that they would automatically follow FINAs ruling on the suits? Seems to me the B70 is effectively dead for masters competition as of today.

As far as the Tyr suits, I suspect those are internal names and they market the suits using "pretty names." Probably Tyr needs to clarify which of their suits is legal now.

Chris Stevenson
May 19th, 2009, 12:29 PM
Is the FS Pro legskin legal or not? I would assume it is legal since every other Pro is legal.

It isn't listed, which would be odd (since the full suit is approved) but I wonder if it is a typo: it looks like the FS-Pro "full" is listed twice although there are two different identification numbers associated with it.

chaos
May 19th, 2009, 12:32 PM
"i'm surprised you folks are suprised by this announcement." says chaos in his endurance square leg.

Crazyman
May 19th, 2009, 12:35 PM
US Masters swimming must do something against new suit rule. Blue70 is just perfect suit for master swimmers and we won't jeopardize the FINA with world records. We want just swim fast and be more competitive along ourselves. If someone goes to World championship, then i guess, we need to "follow" FINA's rule. Otherwise, just leave great organization such as US Master Swimming in peace.
Those bastards in FINA just dont' care about us!!!

Paul Smith
May 19th, 2009, 12:35 PM
"i'm surprised you folks are suprised by this announcement." says chaos in his endurance square leg.

Exactly...we all knew it was coming. However I think the surprise is in what made it and what didn't.

So it looks like a slew of FINA world records (not masters) just got flushed down the toilet!

FYI...6 of the 8 finalists in the 50 free in Charlotte including Fred (21.2) were wearing the banned Jaked suits.

swimmieAvsFan
May 19th, 2009, 12:38 PM
FYI...6 of the 8 finalists in the 50 free in Charlotte including Fred (21.2) were wearing the banned Jaked suits.

so the J03 on the list isn't the suit that those guys were wearing???

and anyone else notice a whole product line under speedo called the "flying fish"?

selkie
May 19th, 2009, 12:40 PM
are the TYR Tracer banned then? What the heck is the A12 suits? Who knew that Asics sold swim suits?

I suspect that Asics' swim market is Asia-only, and that's why we don't see them elsewhere.

Midas
May 19th, 2009, 12:44 PM
My understanding is that the B70 Nero Comp is no longer 'legal' but the PointZero3 is still 'legal', am I wrong?

Since it was a pre-2007 suit, I thought that it was grandfathered in for 2009 as well. That's not clear from the list but hopefully somebody can clarify.

Ken Classen
May 19th, 2009, 12:44 PM
BIG WINNERS:

SPEEDO SPEEDO SPEEDO

All suits are approved !


BIG LOSERS:
BLue 70 (and who bought them)
TYR -- did you see, almost none of their suits are approved
Jaked and the people who set the records in the new Jaked, we will see how much it was the suit and how much it was the swimmer when Phelps destroys the Spaniard in the 100 Fly ....

I’ve never been a big believer in conspiracy theories but my mind may be changing.

Can you say ah hmmm cough cough “payola”

Robert Strand
May 19th, 2009, 12:45 PM
I am sure we will see a company statement by Blue Seventy shortly that will clarify their current position and future products. I wonder how many e-mails Roque has gotten this AM EOM

knelson
May 19th, 2009, 12:49 PM
I really do think Fina is ultimately doing the right thing by requirement more stringent suit testing. The problem is they really needed to start doing this years ago, not now. Their laissez faire attitude in the past is what has created the mess we're in today.

mazzy
May 19th, 2009, 12:53 PM
another FINA mess...
now 136 suits can be resubmited for FINA approval within 30 day (19th june) even if you add 1 week only to for the testing, it's july, so the manufactures have only 20 days to manufactures the modified swimsuit for every Worlds swimmers that want it so I-m talking about a thousand of pieces, I think very tough task to said at least.
Today should be the cut-off date, if out, out for good.
Look like TYR and Blueseventy are the big looser, Speedo the big winner (I'm not surprise of it at all, The main sponsor of federation can't get his top gear get banned and waste tons of $ for his development, even if the word Pro is strange... maybe a new revision )

Jason Marsteller
May 19th, 2009, 12:54 PM
I suspect that Asics' swim market is Asia-only, and that's why we don't see them elsewhere.

Just updated our story. TYR stated the following about their approved suits:

(editor's note: TYR has responded that the three suits approved are the Tracer Rise, the Tracer Light and a suit in development.)

Karen Duggan
May 19th, 2009, 12:59 PM
Two "thoughts":

1) Speedo made sure that B70 was banned (I suspect how that was accomplished, but would that be slander if I said it?), and

2) I was so sick of hearing people, even on my own team, wearing the
B70 that said, "The suit didn't help that much. I trained hard."
OK, well now that the B70 is gone let's see how well they do....

* personal disclaimer: I KNOW the suit made a difference in my swimming!

SwimStud
May 19th, 2009, 01:03 PM
"i'm surprised you folks are suprised by this announcement." says chaos in his endurance square leg.

Glad I got a jump on honing that 6-pack for Nats in Atl 2010. Looks like I'll be ordering another Union Jack brief...oh you lucky gals!

Serious note I feel for those who laid out cash recently. I'm ambivalent to the suits but hope some more financial rebate/trade ins will become apparent.

Paul Smith
May 19th, 2009, 01:10 PM
Next up a ban on duct tape!!

http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/20388.asp?q=Device%20Testing%20is%20Next%20Big%20C ontroversy%20in%20Competitive%20Swimming

mctrusty
May 19th, 2009, 01:18 PM
are the TYR Tracer banned then? What the heck is the A12 suits? Who knew that Asics sold swim suits?



(editor's note: TYR has responded that the three suits approved are the Tracer Rise, the Tracer Light and a suit in development.)


From Swimming World (http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/21182.asp?q=FINA%20Posts%20Final%20Approved%20Swim wear%20List%20for%202009)

Lump
May 19th, 2009, 02:36 PM
"i'm surprised you folks are suprised by this announcement." says chaos in his endurance square leg.

+1, I love mine!

Deano
May 19th, 2009, 02:39 PM
Dear USMS friends,


I’ve already had a slew of calls and emails from swimmers wanting to know what our response is to the overnight release of the FINA approved suits list.

Many of you will know that we submitted 11 models of suits for approval, including tights and jammers. As a company and personally we were very comfortable with the criteria for testing that FINA had outlined, our suits passed well under the threshold for buoyancy and thickness proposed by them.

We have had confirmation that our suits passed the independent laboratory testing for both these tests.

However at this time, our suits are not listed on FINA’s site as an approved model. Even the models we submitted and received approval for in late 2007. It is suffice to say I am stunned at this omission. Ofiicially we are classified as one of the suits that and I quote”May cause significant air trapping when worn by the swimmers”.

However, there are several other brands, a from a similar background as us, that have made suits that have used exactly the same fabric, and similar construction that have passed without a problem.

We are confused!!!! and currently seeking clarification from FINA as to this and the steps to understand why suits of the same materials, construction and similar design are deemed legal but not ours...did we do something to offend?

We understand that right now we have 30 days to make modifications in order to allow the suit to no longer trap air, although how a suit does this, in what shape, size, or method it is required is not clear. Trapping air is of course not a measurable value, and the subjective nature of this decision leaves conspiracy theories flying into my inbox.

Initially the Dubai charter and resubmission of these suits was in order to gain acceptance for Rome World championships. My understanding is that previously approved suits remain legal for all competitions otherwise...I guess for masters it is the decision of the boards and other governing bodies.

Right now my friends we are working through the best solution to the short term situation once we understand the decision and process from FINA, and will in the next few days be working on a statement that will encompass all the issues raised in this forum. We care about swimmers, we care about our company and we care about fair play for all brands in this process.


Thanks to you all

Deano

thewookiee
May 19th, 2009, 02:55 PM
We are confused!!!! and currently seeking clarification from FINA as to this and the steps to understand why suits of the same materials, construction and similar design are deemed legal but not ours...did we do something to offend?

We understand that right now we have 30 days to make modifications in order to allow the suit to no longer trap air, although how a suit does this, in what shape, size, or method it is required is not clear. Trapping air is of course not a measurable value, and the subjective nature of this decision leaves conspiracy theories flying into my inbox.


Deano



Dean,

My biased opinion is that Speedo is jealous of the popularity of B70. Speedo made a new state of the art suit, which was suppose to be the greatest suit out there. Then, an upstart company came into the pool world and proceeded to "smash them like guitars"

Just my thought.

Paul Smith
May 19th, 2009, 03:01 PM
Dear USMS friends,


I’ve already had a slew of calls and emails from swimmers wanting to know what our response is to the overnight release of the FINA approved suits list.

Many of you will know that we submitted 11 models of suits for approval, including tights and jammers. As a company and personally we were very comfortable with the criteria for testing that FINA had outlined, our suits passed well under the threshold for buoyancy and thickness proposed by them.

We have had confirmation that our suits passed the independent laboratory testing for both these tests.

However at this time, our suits are not listed on FINA’s site as an approved model. Even the models we submitted and received approval for in late 2007. It is suffice to say I am stunned at this omission. Ofiicially we are classified as one of the suits that and I quote”May cause significant air trapping when worn by the swimmers”.

However, there are several other brands, a from a similar background as us, that have made suits that have used exactly the same fabric, and similar construction that have passed without a problem.

We are confused!!!! and currently seeking clarification from FINA as to this and the steps to understand why suits of the same materials, construction and similar design are deemed legal but not ours...did we do something to offend?

We understand that right now we have 30 days to make modifications in order to allow the suit to no longer trap air, although how a suit does this, in what shape, size, or method it is required is not clear. Trapping air is of course not a measurable value, and the subjective nature of this decision leaves conspiracy theories flying into my inbox.

Initially the Dubai charter and resubmission of these suits was in order to gain acceptance for Rome World championships. My understanding is that previously approved suits remain legal for all competitions otherwise...I guess for masters it is the decision of the boards and other governing bodies.

Right now my friends we are working through the best solution to the short term situation once we understand the decision and process from FINA, and will in the next few days be working on a statement that will encompass all the issues raised in this forum. We care about swimmers, we care about our company and we care about fair play for all brands in this process.


Thanks to you all

Deano

Call Shubert...or better yet send him a check.

CreamPuff
May 19th, 2009, 03:18 PM
Two "thoughts":

2) I was so sick of hearing people, even on my own team, wearing the
B70 that said, "The suit didn't help that much. I trained hard."
OK, well now that the B70 is gone let's see how well they do....

* personal disclaimer: I KNOW the suit made a difference in my swimming!

LOL! True dat! I know I told people that B70 did my swimming for me.

Ken Classen
May 19th, 2009, 03:18 PM
We are confused!!!! and currently seeking clarification from FINA as to this and the steps to understand why suits of the same materials, construction and similar design are deemed legal but not ours...did we do something to offend?Deano


I’ve never been a big believer in conspiracy theories but my mind may be changing.

Can you say ah hmmm cough cough “payola”

Apparently Speedo's plain vanilia envelope was a little larger.

swimcat
May 19th, 2009, 03:20 PM
Just updated our story. TYR stated the following about their approved suits:

(editor's note: TYR has responded that the three suits approved are the Tracer Rise, the Tracer Light and a suit in development.)
thank goodness, i have a new tracer lite

pwolf66
May 19th, 2009, 03:24 PM
Hmm, FS II isn't on the list. Did Speedo offer that up as a sacrifice?

want2beafish
May 19th, 2009, 03:26 PM
thank goodness, i have a new tracer lite
I was reading my emails in the car, Caroline, right after practice. I read that the Tracer Light was on the approved list and was going to tell you, but you had already left the parking lot. I'm still wondering if my old Aquapels and Aquashifts are OK -- I'm thinking they probably weren't even submitted for approval since they aren't produced anymore (although I think some of the discontinued Speedos are on the approved list). Too bad I'm too slow to justify buying any of the approved suits. :confused:

Knightswimmer2
May 19th, 2009, 03:33 PM
Hmm, FS II isn't on the list. Did Speedo offer that up as a sacrifice?


I guess all the nike suits are out too then...I just lost a big chunk of my swimming wardrobe. :cane:

gull
May 19th, 2009, 03:36 PM
I suggest that Masters swimmers boycott Speedo products.

thewookiee
May 19th, 2009, 03:38 PM
Hmm, FS II isn't on the list. Did Speedo offer that up as a sacrifice?

The list mentions "Fastskins" I would be willing to bet that most people don't know the difference between the fastskin 1 and fastskin 2. I would bet that both models are under the "fastskin" label, so it is probably ok.

tjrpatt
May 19th, 2009, 03:52 PM
I suggest that Masters swimmers boycott Speedo products.

I will ban the tech suits but I can't ban the goggles and caps since they work well for me. Tech suits, not a problem. If I get one for free, well that is a different story but I don't see that happening.

ande
May 19th, 2009, 03:52 PM
Paul,

the USMS interpretation (http://www.usms.org/forums/showpost.php?p=174864&postcount=1110) leads me to believe the Blue Seventy Point Zero did not need to be submitted for testing since it launched before September 30th, 2007


#1. NEW U.S.M.S. SWIMWEAR INTERPRETATION
FINA approval or rejection of new swimwear introduced after September 30, 2007, will be accepted by U.S. Masters Swimming for U.S.M.S. sanctioned and recognized competition. The following interpretation regarding the use of two suits during competition is effective immediately. This interpretation conforms to the recent interpretations issued by FINA (03/15/09) and USA Swimming (03/18/09).

QUESTIONS & ANSWERS:

1. Question: Can I wear a regular racing suit that is not a body suit?
Answer: Yes, suits introduced prior to September 30, 2007, are legal for U.S.M.S. competition.



My understanding is that the B70 Nero Comp is no longer 'legal' but the PointZero3 is still 'legal', am I wrong?

chaos
May 19th, 2009, 03:54 PM
I suggest that Masters swimmers boycott Speedo products.

over this?

or: speedo sweatshops - U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums

ande
May 19th, 2009, 03:58 PM
Word from Blue70 is they got a letter from FINA saying B70 nero comp is not on the list for it's possible "air trapping ability"
Rocket Science has regular fabric panels in the butt.
I believe the B70 Point Zero did not need to be submitted for testing and will be legal till Dec 31st, 2009, but would like to hear the official word from Kathy Casey.



And how stupid would it be for the B70 Point Zero to be legal but the others not?!

Isn't the Rocket Science suit completely impermeable as well?

EricOrca
May 19th, 2009, 04:24 PM
This doesn't really affect me, I didn't even know what a B70 was until recently.
I liked using the FS Pro shorts at a recent meet and was planning on getting FS pro pants later this year...But then again, I'm in no position on trying to break any records anytime soon :)

orca1946
May 19th, 2009, 04:35 PM
I told fellow swimmers not to buy the on sale suits !!!

craig68
May 19th, 2009, 04:54 PM
Someone here will certainly know the answer to this question. Does USA Swimming follow FINA guidelines on these matters? I'll be competing at a couple of USA Swimming meets this summer and would like to wear my B70 if I can.

Paul Smith
May 19th, 2009, 04:57 PM
Word from Blue70 is they got a letter from FINA saying B70 nero comp is not on the list for it's possible "air trapping ability"
Rocket Science has regular fabric panels in the butt.
I believe the B70 Point Zero did not need to be submitted for testing and will be legal till Dec 31st, 2009, but would like to hear the official word from Kathy Casey.

Just went over and picked up a Rocket Science (approved) & a Aquasphere (not approved) and have them here in hand with my B70. First impression is exact same fabric alhtough thicker, looking over the RS I see what Ande is talking about with regards to the "regular fabic rear panel"...which is actually not accurate as the material is the same as the rest of the outside of the suit but is has a honeycomb pattern of small "holes" (about twice the size of a ballpoint pen tip) which are backed by the suits lining (guessing the same material as the B70)...this materail is not in the butt but rather the crotch area and under the armpits. It makes sense from a "trapping air" perspective I guess and the tests seem to make that conclusion...now if i can squeeze my fat rear into the thing will give it a test tomorrow and see if I can feel how much of a difference not trapping air makes.

Paul Smith
May 19th, 2009, 04:58 PM
Someone here will certainly know the answer to this question. Does USA Swimming follow FINA guidelines on these matters? I'll be competing at a couple of USA Swimming meets this summer and would like to wear my B70 if I can.

Yes

Crazyman
May 19th, 2009, 05:06 PM
I'm going to use Blue70 until end of this year no matter what.

Karen Duggan
May 19th, 2009, 05:07 PM
Another legality question: I thought suits with long arms were not allowed, yet I saw two guys at nationals wearing the full-on legs and arms?

I wonder how much of Speedo's budget is R and D and how much is G the P (grease the palm)?

It is SO obvious what has happened... it's not right. I will not buy any Speedo products from here on out. Too bad b/c I've bought all 3 of my kids a lot of Speedo suits, and they will be buying a lot more suits than me in the future. I will make sure they don't spend their money on Speedo products.

I don't have the mentality that "I'll show them!" but more of "OK, I see how you operate. And I don't like it."

aquageek
May 19th, 2009, 05:15 PM
...now if i can squeeze my fat rer into the thing will give it a test tomorrow and see if I can feel how much of a difference not trapping air makes.

For the love of God, and all things good and decent, please do not post pictures of this arse squeezing.

trout
May 19th, 2009, 05:20 PM
Dean,

Thank you for your prompt reply and explanation. The approved list doesn't make a lot of sense except as suggested by Ken and Paul. Your support of master's swimmers and willingness to stand behind your products is much appreciated by this swimmer. Good luck in your appeal.

androvski
May 19th, 2009, 05:25 PM
Boa about the FSIIs? Are they still legal?

The Fortress
May 19th, 2009, 05:26 PM
2) I was so sick of hearing people, even on my own team, wearing the
B70 that said, "The suit didn't help that much. I trained hard."
OK, well now that the B70 is gone let's see how well they do....


Yeah, that Chris Stevenson will just have to shut up ... :bolt: I'm sure his swimming will absolutely hit the skids without his B70 ...

I agree about B70 being an excellent product with a lot of brand loyalty. I'll definitely try the next iteration. But I need a new tech suit now! My Pro is rather old at this point. Any bets that Pro prices will now mysteriously increase?

jim clemmons
May 19th, 2009, 05:45 PM
I agree about B70 being an excellent product with a lot of brand loyalty. I'll definitely try the next iteration.

Me too, but in the meantime, I'm thinking Tracer.

Anyone have any experiences they can share?

ALM
May 19th, 2009, 06:35 PM
The FINA statement says that they reviewed suits from 21 manufacturers. But there are only 18 manufacturers on the "approved" list, so apparently there were three that didn't make the cut.

Nike, B70, and Yingfa are all absent. Here are the 18 on the list:

Adidas
Agon Sport L.L.C.
Akron SRL
Arena Italia S.p.A.
Asics Corporation
Descente LTD
Diana Sport
Finis Inc.
Jaked SRL
Kiwami
Mizuno Corporation
Orca
Rocket Science Sports
Sailfish GmbH
Speedo
Sports Hig
Tyr Sports Inc.
Yamamotohokosyo Corporation

ALM
May 19th, 2009, 06:41 PM
Just went over and picked up a Rocket Science (approved) & a Aquasphere (not approved) and have them here in hand with my B70. ....will give it a test tomorrow and see if I can feel how much of a difference not trapping air makes.

Geez, are you made of money? Or did you not buy these two new suits, but merely "borrow" them? :bolt:

swimcat
May 19th, 2009, 07:22 PM
Me too, but in the meantime, I'm thinking Tracer.

Anyone have any experiences they can share?
i have tracer lite. it is just like the speedo fs pro

Paul Smith
May 19th, 2009, 07:24 PM
Geez, are you made of money? Or did you not buy these two new suits, but merely "borrow" them? :bolt:

Stole them from a coach friend that has a bunch around they had been testing...only trying them on to see if they fit. At this point I'm most likely staying with my FS Pro.

Thrashing Slug
May 19th, 2009, 08:24 PM
+1, I love mine!

+2

swoomer
May 19th, 2009, 08:27 PM
While I'm not surprised to find that the Blueseventy is not on the approved list, I am confused by the timing. Every indication was that the suits would be legal through 2009.

I did bite when they offered a discount through USMS - making it mildly affordable. Since I purchase a new tech suit each year, I decided to splurge. It appears that I made a huge mistake - along with a lot of others I'm sure. Who do you trust if you can't trust the sponsors? Even the local rep understood that it would be useful to the end of the year which made it a lot more attractive, knowing that I'd be able to wear it for 5-6 meets.

I smell a rat! Unfortunately, all of my old worn out suits have a Speedo label on them. I think I'm going to get a permanent marker out and eradicate the name!

preeder61
May 19th, 2009, 09:15 PM
Yea any clarification on what the tyr suits are...Ive never heard of A12, A7, or A10...

I understand that these are TYR's Tracer Rise and Tracer Lite and a new suit, still in development. But no word on the Titan

SwimStud
May 19th, 2009, 09:19 PM
I am sure USMS will let the suits be used until year end we're halfway there anyway.

JimRude
May 19th, 2009, 09:22 PM
Just went over and picked up a Rocket Science (approved) & a Aquasphere (not approved) and have them here in hand with my B70. First impression is exact same fabric alhtough thicker, looking over the RS I see what Ande is talking about with regards to the "regular fabic rear panel"...which is actually not accurate as the material is the same as the rest of the outside of the suit but is has a honeycomb pattern of small "holes" (about twice the size of a ballpoint pen tip) which are backed by the suits lining (guessing the same material as the B70)...this materail is not in the butt but rather the crotch area and under the armpits. It makes sense from a "trapping air" perspective I guess and the tests seem to make that conclusion...now if i can squeeze my fat rear into the thing will give it a test tomorrow and see if I can feel how much of a difference not trapping air makes.

Paul, demo that RS badboy and let me know what you think - time to find a B70 replacement - quick. Indy is just around the corner...

bkbain
May 19th, 2009, 09:30 PM
I am sure USMS will let the suits be used until year end we're halfway there anyway.



thats what I think too!

The Fortress
May 19th, 2009, 09:38 PM
Huh? Are the suits currently legal for USMS meets until USMS issues an announcement that it will follow the FINA approval list? Or should you be DQ'd if you use one in a meet?

cyclist
May 19th, 2009, 09:52 PM
The writing was on the wall for the B70 to be banned. Especially once they announced their "sponsorship" of USMS. And I am sure Speedo was tired of other manufactures providing better floating suits.


I'm less interested in this list than I am in the one from Jan 2010 on and what restrictions the NCAA will put in place to stop the use of expensive suits during in season meets.

Overall this a step in the right direction.

RobbieD
May 19th, 2009, 10:30 PM
Me too, but in the meantime, I'm thinking Tracer.

Anyone have any experiences they can share?

I have about 26 races in a Tracer Light and I like it way more than the B70 I bought at Nationals (I raced in the B70 there and this past weekend at a LCM meet). The Tracer is fast, the compression is very good, and the construction is very strong. I like the cut much more as well... more realistic for a bigger guy like myself.

I will say this though, I think techsuits are extremely body type dependent as to which suit works for each swimmer. The B70 might be faster for a lot of people, but it wasn't that great for me.

ande
May 19th, 2009, 10:35 PM
Blue Seventy CEO Steve Nicholls Response to FINAs Ruling (http://www.floswimming.org/videos/speaker/3661-steve-nicholls/180522-blueseventy-response)

guppy
May 19th, 2009, 11:03 PM
So, whatever happened to Arena x-glide?

knelson
May 19th, 2009, 11:51 PM
thats what I think too!

I think you guys are both wrong. USMS has already said they will follow the FINA ruling:
http://www.usms.org/rules/swimsuitnotice090326.pdf

That Guy
May 20th, 2009, 01:13 AM
This is too funny. I think I counted three of you in this thread that trumpeted the Speedo Endurance. But it isn't on the list, you tech-dopers! :lmao:

pwb
May 20th, 2009, 01:32 AM
The next question for USMS and USAS will be: how will this be policed? I can understand that at the elite meets like World Championships, it will be easier to police. But, at USMS and USAS meets, are we going to have to train our officials in which suits are legal and which are not? Obviously, given the current list, it will be easy for officials to identify suit-makers that have NO suits approved (e.g., B70), but it will be much harder for suit companies that have some, but not all suits approved.

dolf
May 20th, 2009, 03:14 AM
DIANA - Submarine Shining Arrow

I've just been looking on manufacturers websites at the approved suits for possible alternatives to the B70. I've never heard of this suit before, but just look at the claims they make..........

"At the same time considering the “rebound” of the water molecule in contact with the micro spheres we can easily imagine the creation of air chambers that will allowed the swimmer to float better than with the Submarine TF with a gain of about 15%"
http://www.dianasport.com/ing/Submarine/Submarine_Shining_Arrow.html

I do actually find the B70 does hold a little air, but I don't see that as an advantage. It actually distracts me sometimes from the race.

Definately something fishy going on

Rykno
May 20th, 2009, 04:43 AM
for those of you that keep saying that you think, assume or hope that USMS will allow the use of the banned suits through Dec 31 might not be thinking of those swimmers that have a chance to break world records.

Isn't it FINA that approves WR's? if so, then that would most likely mean that any WR swim would have to be from a meet that didn't allow banned suits.

Or is there a box to check in on the application that states what suit you wore?

SwimStud
May 20th, 2009, 07:13 AM
The next question for USMS and USAS will be: how will this be policed? I can understand that at the elite meets like World Championships, it will be easier to police. But, at USMS and USAS meets, are we going to have to train our officials in which suits are legal and which are not? Obviously, given the current list, it will be easy for officials to identify suit-makers that have NO suits approved (e.g., B70), but it will be much harder for suit companies that have some, but not all suits approved.

This is a good point...maybe they'll have to be a certificate stamped on the suit but then that could be forged etc.

chaos
May 20th, 2009, 07:52 AM
its sad to see that this ruling has created a panic among us. (though i am not an "us" in this case) i offer these well worn words to those of you who would rather be eaten by wild animals than have to race a single 50 in anything less than full coverage:
Better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.

thewookiee
May 20th, 2009, 08:36 AM
its sad to see that this ruling has created a panic among us. (though i am not an "us" in this case) i offer these well worn words to those of you who would rather be eaten by wild animals than have to race a single 50 in anything less than full coverage:
Better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.

HAHA....your sooo funny. Good news...not all the body/tech suits are gone. So, we can still race in more than bare coverage.

This should be a start to a happy medium for both sides. For the "pro tech" suit crowds, there is still a large number of body suits out there. One of them should be able to fit your body, distance, event. For the "anti-tech" crowd, some of the suits they deemed really offensive are out in their current form.

So both sides have won and lost.

mctrusty
May 20th, 2009, 08:43 AM
its sad to see that this ruling has created a panic among us. (though i am not an "us" in this case) i offer these well worn words to those of you who would rather be eaten by wild animals than have to race a single 50 in anything less than full coverage:
Better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.

Maybe it's my interpretation, and "there is only text", but I'm not really reading a lot of panic here. Confusion as to what is banned and why, curiosity over what this means in terms of policy and enforcement, and conspiracy theories are mostly what I'm reading.

aquageek
May 20th, 2009, 08:54 AM
HAHA....your sooo funny. Good news...not all the body/tech suits are gone. So, we can still race in more than bare coverage.

This should be a start to a happy medium for both sides. For the "pro tech" suit crowds, there is still a large number of body suits out there. One of them should be able to fit your body, distance, event. For the "anti-tech" crowd, some of the suits they deemed really offensive are out in their current form.

So both sides have won and lost.

I really agree, we finally have some sort of standard and list, rather than the wild wild west that has existed the past 18 months.

As to the both sides winning and losing, I suspect wookie is more familiar with the losing than the winning.

chaos
May 20th, 2009, 08:57 AM
Maybe it's my interpretation, and "there is only text", but I'm not really reading a lot of panic here. Confusion as to what is banned and why, curiosity over what this means in terms of policy and enforcement, and conspiracy theories are mostly what I'm reading.

maybe its not evident from this thread, but make no mistake... there is panic!

(i do like the "lets boycott speedo because we think they have unfairly influenced the the decision to disqualify a suit that is cheaper and many thought was faster" idea.... but the truth is: no one is going to take such a stand if they think the speedo is their best bet to squeeze a half second out of a 50.... so, its just huffing and puffing.)

letsrace
May 20th, 2009, 09:10 AM
That Guy joked about it, but it is a fair point. If a suit is not on the Fina list but used in a record-swimming performance will the record not be granted? We immediately jump to thoughts of tech suits like the X Glide, but how about some training suit? You can't set a WR in a nylon suit?! That doesn't make sense.

Is there a rule that covers this case? If not, then the anti-tech suit crowd should be up in arms. Why? Because this list means that you MUST wear a "tech suit" (if you want a record). Of course I consider all of the suits other than a brief, for men, to be a tech suit.

qbrain
May 20th, 2009, 09:31 AM
So I am no where near top 10, or WR, or even beating the 80yo guy in the lane next to me, so how does meet time submissions work? Is every time submitted from a meet eligible for top 10 and WR, or is there some paperwork?

If someone looks like they set a record, can their suit be reviewed then?

I have no problem getting my a** handed to me by a 90yo woman in a B70 who is just there for some fun racing. It would suck to get DQed for racing in the wrong suit when the objective isn't top times, it is just to race.

Speedo
May 20th, 2009, 09:52 AM
That Guy joked about it, but it is a fair point. If a suit is not on the Fina list but used in a record-swimming performance will the record not be granted? We immediately jump to thoughts of tech suits like the X Glide, but how about some training suit? You can't set a WR in a nylon suit?! That doesn't make sense.

Is there a rule that covers this case? If not, then the anti-tech suit crowd should be up in arms. Why? Because this list means that you MUST wear a "tech suit" (if you want a record). Of course I consider all of the suits other than a brief, for men, to be a tech suit.
I believe the current list only includes those suits that came on the market after 2007- all suits approved prior to this time are still legal but not included in the list FINA published- this list is not inclusive of all legal suits, just those introduced after 2007. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.


So I am no where near top 10, or WR, or even beating the 80yo guy in the lane next to me, so how does meet time submissions work? Is every time submitted from a meet eligible for top 10 and WR, or is there some paperwork?
I just asked our PV Top Ten Recorder that question about Top Ten submissions. He said your times would be entered automatically by the Top Ten Recorder for the LMSC where the meet was held, so no additional paperwork. Letsrace should be able to answer your question regarding WR- I didn't even ask about that :blush:

androvski
May 20th, 2009, 09:56 AM
I believe the current list only includes those suits that came on the market after 2007- all suits approved prior to this time are still legal but not included in the list FINA published- this list is not inclusive of all legal suits, just those introduced after 2007. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.
There are several suits in the list that were introduced before 2007. The Aquablade, for instances.

knelson
May 20th, 2009, 10:01 AM
That's true, but I don't think the pre-2007 suits needed to be tested. I would guess Speedo just submitted all their suits so they can advertise that ALL their currently available racing suits passed FINAs scrutiny.

Ahelee Sue Osborn
May 20th, 2009, 10:59 AM
This is too funny. I think I counted three of you in this thread that trumpeted the Speedo Endurance. But it isn't on the list, you tech-dopers! :lmao:

Hey maybe I missed something here... but Speedo Endurance is a line of polyester workout suits.
Why would it be on the tech-suit list?

aquageek
May 20th, 2009, 11:03 AM
Hey maybe I missed something here... but Speedo Endurance is a line of polyester workout suits.
Why would it be on the tech-suit list?

It wouldn't be on the list, it's a training suit, although I have raced in one.

lefty
May 20th, 2009, 11:04 AM
To some extent Speedo is the bad guy, but it should be remembered that they do more to promote the sport than, well, anyone. Of course they are in it for money, why would that even be discussed, but they do recognize that they have a role in the promotion of the sport and have taken that role seriously.

The Fortress
May 20th, 2009, 11:07 AM
I've also read this opinion:

"None of the b70 suits have been put on the approved list, but neither have they been banned. It is a process, and they are still good to use until such time as their status is clarified."

I don't see the panic either, Dave. I think people want to make sure they're swimming in legal suits. Or, perhaps they'd prefer to swim in non-Speedo suits, which narrows the available suits down substantially.

hofffam
May 20th, 2009, 11:09 AM
I am very disappointed for B70 as a company in this. I really liked their entry into the market and I think it is clearly good to have an upstart challenge Speedo.

From the first time I put on my B70 I believed it trapped air. So I fully expected the B70 to fail the 2010 requirements for permeability. But if other suits are constructed similarly to the B70 but they passed FINA's requirements - why?

It is easy to see why the LZR passed - since it has significant surface area not covered by rubber.

I hope B70 acts quickly with a buyback program. My son is a USA-S swimmer and his B70 is useless now. It probably only has 10 races in it and he'll never be able to use it again. He paid for part of it. He will need a new suit for next spring's championship season and he will need a 2010 legal suit. No way he'll spend $300-$400 for a 2009 only suit.

Blue Seventy will lose customers rapidly since there are apparently many suits legal NOW and those accustomed to racing in a B70 will not want to lose swimsuit performance.

Maybe B70 could sell their top suits on a subscription basis - pay a certain amount per year and be assured of always having a FINA legal suit.

Ahelee Sue Osborn
May 20th, 2009, 11:19 AM
To some extent Speedo is the bad guy, but it should be remembered that they do more to promote the sport than, well, anyone. Of course they are in it for money, why would that even be discussed, but they do recognize that they have a role in the promotion of the sport and have taken that role seriously.

Speedo has been the big swim giant as long as any of us can remember... And they were the only company to support and contribute to competitive swimming for decades.

I'm not sayin here that we have to be 100% loyal to their mode of business operations now.
They have certainly made plenty of money off all of us (and our parents) for years.

But do remember where we were 30-40-50 years ago.

There are events, magazines, and athletes who were able to continue in the sport of swimming only thanks to the support of this company.

I'm 100% happy that other companies have been tough enough to go up against and withstand the competiton to create some great options for us.

The sport (fitness & competitive) is huge - and there is room for more than one swim wear company.

hofffam
May 20th, 2009, 11:24 AM
Of course Speedo has been a huge positive force for swimming. But competition is good. And some things they do - like the Mark Schubert influence - stink all around.

Ahelee Sue Osborn
May 20th, 2009, 11:26 AM
Of course Speedo has been a huge positive force for swimming. But competition is good. And some things they do - like the Mark Schubert influence - stink all around.

AGREED!

The Fortress
May 20th, 2009, 11:27 AM
To some extent Speedo is the bad guy

Yes, and it'd be nice to know the whole extent ... One wonders what a plaintiff's lawyer representing B70 might find ... given the all around "stink" so many have alluded to. I'm sure it's easy for successful monopolists to "give back" when there's little competition.

aquageek
May 20th, 2009, 11:39 AM
I don't really understand the conspiracy theories or the anti-Speedo mentality. I see daily the good things Speedo does at our club.

I also know that B70 quickly built a very loyal following, not only in USMS, but with the age groupers and the tri community. I think that is great. However, there is a whole lot more to a new product than simply making the product, most notably, being able to anticipate market conditions and your competition. It seems this is just part of the athletic apparel game. I hope B70 can adapt and succeed.

It takes a whole lot more than a few rocks and a leather strap to knock out your competition.

chaos
May 20th, 2009, 11:43 AM
It takes a whole lot more than a few rocks and a leather strap to knock out your competition.

"that depends"....says david

hofffam
May 20th, 2009, 11:50 AM
It takes a whole lot more than a few rocks and a leather strap to knock out your competition.

I think maybe just some Lycra and Yamamoto SCS coating, properly designed, sold at a better price, is a pretty good start.

Karen Duggan
May 20th, 2009, 11:51 AM
It was mentioned to me a long time ago that Speedo reps were having dinner with FINA officials during one of these suit "discussions" in Switzerland. That is one reason I smell a rat wearing a LZR.

BillS
May 20th, 2009, 11:51 AM
According to the Steve Nicholl interview, B70 submitted 11 suits for testing. I have to believe the new B70 legskin was one. It strains credibility to believe that any legskin -- whether made entirely of a wholly impermeable fabric or not --could possibly trap more air than a full body suit made of impermeable fabrics with breathable panels.

pwolf66
May 20th, 2009, 12:00 PM
And what about the B70 PointZero3??? That was introduced prior to the supposed cut off for mid-year testing/ratification but yet is not listed but yet quite a few suits introduced prior to that supposed cut-off ARE listed.

thewookiee
May 20th, 2009, 12:24 PM
And what about the B70 PointZero3??? That was introduced prior to the supposed cut off for mid-year testing/ratification but yet is not listed but yet quite a few suits introduced prior to that supposed cut-off ARE listed.

Even someone as simple minded as Geek can understand this one. NONE of B70's suits have been approved. If anyone of their suits had made it past the first part of the testing, then it would be listed. Since no B70 suit is listed...they ain't approved.

If they had been approved, B70 would have it all over their website and Dean would have made sure we knew about it.

What did we learn from today's lesson class? That's right...don't be a Geek.

aquageek
May 20th, 2009, 12:36 PM
It was mentioned to me a long time ago that Speedo reps were having dinner with FINA officials during one of these suit "discussions" in Switzerland. That is one reason I smell a rat wearing a LZR.

Exactly, know your competition, be prepared for it and respond accordingly.

gull
May 20th, 2009, 01:40 PM
OMG. Corporate America (in this case represented by Speedo) is able to change the rules if the price is right? As Claude Rains said in Casablanca, "I am shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here."

The Nero Comp traps air, and the Fastskin II or the Pro do not? Give me a break.

letsrace
May 20th, 2009, 01:41 PM
Hey maybe I missed something here... but Speedo Endurance is a line of polyester workout suits.
Why would it be on the tech-suit list?

Remember, the title of this list is "FINA 2009 List of Approved Swimsuits". It makes no reference to "tech suits" and certainly makes no distinction between tech suits and workout suits. So I assume that if a suit is not on the list, it is not legal, which is what "That Guy" was suggesting.

This is why I was asking if there is some other set of rules being used to determine a suits legality, which would allow training suits at meet. Someone suggested that suits introduced before September 2007 would be allowed. So does that mean that new workout suits are not allowed?

Before you assume that this is obvious and that I am "picking nits", remember that USMS tried to give "clarification" recently on the "two suit" rules in meets and managed to confuse things by stating that you could only wear one suit AND you could wear two suits (a modesty suit underneath a tech suit).

One might argue that this is all "common sense", but I would disagree.

knelson
May 20th, 2009, 01:59 PM
One might argue that this is all "common sense", but I would disagree.

You're right. Everything is pretty fuzzy right now. Patrick already brought up the issue of enforcement. Will officials be responsible for disqualifying swimmers wearing "non-approved" suits or will this only be an issue when attempting to ratify a world record or something like that? Fina has already stated they don't intend to publish a "banned list," only a list of suits that have been approved. If this is the case it seems like any suit not on the approved list is a de facto banned suit. Will the starter be required to DQ you if you show up to the blocks wearing a Dolfin Uglies training suit?

I'm sure clarification on this will come in time. But as Mike said, sometimes the clarification just seems to muddy things further.

pwb
May 20th, 2009, 02:03 PM
Remember, the title of this list is "FINA 2009 List of Approved Swimsuits". It makes no reference to "tech suits" and certainly makes no distinction between tech suits and workout suits. So I assume that if a suit is not on the list, it is not legal, which is what "That Guy" was suggesting.

This is why I was asking if there is some other set of rules being used to determine a suits legality, which would allow training suits at meet. Someone suggested that suits introduced before September 2007 would be allowed. So does that mean that new workout suits are not allowed?

Before you assume that this is obvious and that I am "picking nits", remember that USMS tried to give "clarification" recently on the "two suit" rules in meets and managed to confuse things by stating that you could only wear one suit AND you could wear two suits (a modesty suit underneath a tech suit).

One might argue that this is all "common sense", but I would disagree.

I wholeheartedly agree; the "rulemakers" at FINA are not doing a good job at providing clarity. If you're going to explicitly allow and not allow certain suits, you have to be exhaustive in your lists.

I'm swimming this weekend in a meet that is dually sanctioned USAS and USMS. I was planning on wearing an endurance jammer even before the announcement as it's just a "get some times in LCM" meet for me. I'll report back at least how Arizona Swimming handles this suit issue on my blog (http://forums.usms.org/blog.php?u=5013).

ourswimmer
May 20th, 2009, 02:09 PM
Here, straight from FINA, are their "requirements" for swimwear approval. They answer some of the questions people have posed here, but not all of them.

http://www.fina.org/project/docs/rules/SWIMWEAR%20APPROVAL.pdf (http://www.fina.org/project/docs/rules/SWIMWEAR%20APPROVAL.pdf)


That's true, but I don't think the pre-2007 suits needed to be tested.

Many people including me shared this belief, but I cannot figure out or remember why we did. I will be very grateful to someone who can remind us why we thought so. The USMS "guidance" repeats the "rule" that suits approved before September 2007 are OK, but the memo linked above suggests otherwise: Rule 4.1 is "All swimsuits to be used during the period of application shall be submitted, even if previously approved."


Remember, the title of this list is "FINA 2009 List of Approved Swimsuits". It makes no reference to "tech suits" and certainly makes no distinction between tech suits and workout suits.

One might argue that this is all "common sense", but I would disagree.

I would disagree as well. For instance, the rules in this memo do seem to say that for a swim to satisfy FINA standards it must happen in one of the suits on FINA's "approved" list, period, not in a fifteen-year-old The Finals suit that happens somehow to have survived in a dark corner of the drawer where you keep sports clothes.


I would guess Speedo just submitted all their suits so they can advertise that ALL their currently available racing suits passed FINAs scrutiny.

On the other hand, if our belief about suits from before September 2007 being OK turns out to have been correct, then I think this marketing theory is sound.


The next question for USMS and USAS will be: how will this be policed?


This is a good point...maybe they'll have to be a certificate stamped on the suit but then that could be forged etc.

A "non-removable" mark on the suit, not prominent yet easily accessible to meet officials, is the certification method; see rule 4.6.


Another legality question: I thought suits with long arms were not allowed, yet I saw two guys at nationals wearing the full-on legs and arms?

I was surprised to see those long-arm suits too, because like you I thought long arms were already out. And if we noticed, surely the officials noticed.

ande
May 20th, 2009, 02:30 PM
sent this email today:

From: Rasmussen, Anders (AUSTIN, TX)
Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 11:54 AM
To: 'rules@usms.org'
Subject: Dear Kathy, RE USMS RULES

Dear Kathy,

It was wonderful to meet you at nationals.
Yesterday the FINA 2009 List of Approved Swimsuits came out.
In March, 2009 USMS issued the U.S. Masters Swimming’s official interpretation of Swimwear rule 102.14
Now that the list is out I’m curious if anything has changed?
Is the new list effective immediately?
This:
“Question: Can I wear a regular racing suit that is not a body suit?
Answer: Yes, suits introduced prior to September 30, 2007, are legal for U.S.M.S. competition.”
leads me to believe the B70 Point Zero suit will remain legal, since it was launched in Sept 2006

It would be helpful to have an official statement from the USMS rules committee

Ande

Mswimming
May 20th, 2009, 02:40 PM
4.6 Notice of approval
The Manufacturer must indicate the approval on the product in use in a non
removable manner, either on the product itself and/or on non removable label by the
words "FINA approved 03/09".
The notice shall be accessible to control but shall not be prominent. It shall be written
in normal font script and size.
Usage in public advertising and promotion is not permitted subject to a specific
agreement with FINA. For the avoidance of doubt, usage of the FINA Logo or other
trademarks of FINA is not permitted in any way.
The fact that a swimsuit is of an approved model must in any event be identifiable in
relation to its use in a competition during the period of application of these rules.
Such identification can occur through the above mentioned marking on the swimsuit
or label or through another ad hoc procedure accepted by FINA for the purpose of
the application of these transitory rules.

Huh? Again what about suits on the list but do not have an identifiable mark?

swimshark
May 20th, 2009, 03:28 PM
This is why I was asking if there is some other set of rules being used to determine a suits legality, which would allow training suits at meet. Someone suggested that suits introduced before September 2007 would be allowed. So does that mean that new workout suits are not allowed?

B.

I have a pre-2007 suit so it's not listed as approved. How do I go to a meet and prove to an official that it is an older tech suit?! Show him a dated picture of me wearing a similar one from 2004?

This is going to take a while to iron out.

Dolphin 2
May 20th, 2009, 03:42 PM
Being a swimmer of the 80's-90's this whole suit thing is a joke to me, really just disappointing to be honest. Swimming is now becoming like NASCAR or something, everyone looking for an equipment edge. To me at least swimming was better back when everyone wore nothing more fancy than a paper brief suit....at least it was about the "swimming" and "training", not a fashion show.

Now, that being said, I know it makes swimming exciting with the new incredible times, puts swimming the limelight, etc. To me, it doesn't make it better though.

MY :2cents:. I'm just over all this suit BS.

Hi Lump
Last night, the CEO of Tyr was interviewed on KCBS radio's sports report and he gave an extensive discussion about FINA's approval of the latest models of the so called tech suits and the advantages swimmers get from using them.

He overtly stated something to the effect that "..........The suits increase buoyancy so the person rides higher in the water so there's less drag and less tendency for the legs to sink, compress and smooth out the body, lessen exertion and fatigue, and a host of other factors........yada, yada, yada, yada......".

I felt like yelling at the radio "Hey Mr. CEO of Tyr, it's been known for over 100 years that anyone can swim faster by using mechanical aids (such as a high buoyancy suit, paddles, flippers, etc.) and why in the hell should we accept the new records set through mechanically aided swimming as being an achievement?".

Considering how the issue over "suit technology" has evolved into the current mess, the only practical way to resolve the debate is to have two races: One with so called tech suits and the other one with only 1970s era briefs. And we'll see which time counts as being the "true" record.

Dolphin 2

Midas
May 20th, 2009, 03:44 PM
sent this email today:

From: Rasmussen, Anders (AUSTIN, TX)
Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 11:54 AM
To: 'rules@usms.org'
Subject: Dear Kathy, RE USMS RULES

Dear Kathy,

It was wonderful to meet you at nationals.
Yesterday the FINA 2009 List of Approved Swimsuits came out.
In March, 2009 USMS issued the U.S. Masters Swimming’s official interpretation of Swimwear rule 102.14
Now that the list is out I’m curious if anything has changed?
Is the new list effective immediately?
This:
“Question: Can I wear a regular racing suit that is not a body suit?
Answer: Yes, suits introduced prior to September 30, 2007, are legal for U.S.M.S. competition.”
leads me to believe the B70 Point Zero suit will remain legal, since it was launched in Sept 2006

It would be helpful to have an official statement from the USMS rules committee

Ande

It's not relevant to me (since I won't be setting any world records any time soon) but even if USMS approves the pointZero3 for the balance of 2009, I don't think the suit is legal for FINA purposes, so the elite swimmers interested in records should probably stay away in any event.

LMH
May 20th, 2009, 03:49 PM
The Fina list has changed to include 3 models of the "LZR Racer"

bkbain
May 20th, 2009, 03:50 PM
USA Swimming has not yet taken any action with respect to the published list of approved suits and will not do so until after the Rules & Regulations Committee meeting scheduled for May 29-30. Following that meeting, a formal announcement will be made regarding how the approved list will affect USA Swimming and its rules & regulations.



USA swimmings statement.

ande
May 20th, 2009, 04:10 PM
I get the argument that swimming should be about the swimmers & not the suits.

Here's the rules in the USMS rule book (http://www.usms.org/rules/part1.pdf):



102.14 Swimwear
102.14.1 Design—The swimsuits worn for competition shall be nontransparent and conform to the current concept of the appropriate.

102.15 Disqualifications
102.15.9 Swimmers are not permitted to wear or use any device or substance to help their speed, pace or buoyancy during a race.[/URL]

Swimmers wear swim suits to cover their private parts. When a suit covers other areas, it could be viewed as a device that helps speed & bouyancy.

FINA's new rules don't address compression. Swimmers squeeze into small tight suits making their bodies more aquadynamic. Perhaps there should be a rule that states:

"Swimmers must put on their swimsuits themselves without any assistance or tools."

Muppet
May 20th, 2009, 04:18 PM
Perhaps there should be a rule that states:

"Swimmers must put on their swimsuits themselves without any assistance or tools."

I like that idea on the surface.

Underneath, however, more problems... people with missing limbs, arthritis or another disability that need assistance putting on a normal brief or normal female suit. The Blue Muppet had to tie my drawstrings for me at 2005 Nationals when my arm was in a cast and thumb was locked in a string-tying-unfriendly position.

Doug Adamavich
May 20th, 2009, 04:38 PM
FINA's new rules don't address compression. Swimmers squeeze into small tight suits making their bodies more aquadynamic.

I think there are two aspects of the new suits which help swimmers, lower hydrodynamic drag and compression. Both significantly improve performance in the water.

If you have a material that has less drag (ex. shaved human skin) it will enable you to swim through the water faster. Look at what bike racers wear (helmets, glasses, uniforms, etc.) that lessens drag.

If your muscles are not moving around, you will be able to sustain physical effort for a longer period of time. Witness track athletes, basketball players, and others who wear tight shorts to keep their leg muscles compressed.

The whole argument over suits trapping air is a red herring in my opinion. Almost any wet fabric can trap air and aid in bouyancy, just wear board shorts the next time you go to a hotel hot tub for proof of this. The bigger issue is trapping water! In one of my races at Portland last year, I got some water in my lower back while wearing my Blue Seventy Nero Comp. I think it slowed me down and took away some of the advantages the suit gave me. So the equipment giveth and the equipment taketh away...

All sports involve equipment that aid the athlete's performance. But in the end, the person inside the garment is the ultimate determining factor.

Just my opinion on all the brew ha ha.

Paul Smith
May 20th, 2009, 04:57 PM
Just got back from workout after trying out the Rocket Science full body sleeveless, some observations:

- Most people at workout thought I was wearing a B70...same external fabric & liner/same look.

- Very well made suit. Same amount of effort to get into...but the suits run HUGE. I was in a "small/tall". Those that no me know there is now and never has been anything small about me. It is nice that they offer a tall IMHO.

- I did some faster pass 50's and a couple of dives and the suit felt exactly the same to me.

- The "feature" that got them approved and from what I understand "sank" the B70 was a mesh panel in the crotch and under the armpits. I have to call BS on this. if someone took a suit in their hand and drug it thru the wateer than yes some air bubbles would escape the RS that don't with the B70...however when the suit is on the location of those panels (IMHO) had no impact on this as most of the air bubbles in both suits tend to sit in the small of the back.

I'll be wearing at a meet over the wekend and see if anything changes....

Jeff Commings
May 20th, 2009, 05:10 PM
sent this email today:

From: Rasmussen, Anders (AUSTIN, TX)
Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 11:54 AM
To: 'rules@usms.org'
Subject: Dear Kathy, RE USMS RULES

Dear Kathy,

It was wonderful to meet you at nationals.
Yesterday the FINA 2009 List of Approved Swimsuits came out.
In March, 2009 USMS issued the U.S. Masters Swimming’s official interpretation of Swimwear rule 102.14
Now that the list is out I’m curious if anything has changed?
Is the new list effective immediately?
This:
“Question: Can I wear a regular racing suit that is not a body suit?
Answer: Yes, suits introduced prior to September 30, 2007, are legal for U.S.M.S. competition.”
leads me to believe the B70 Point Zero suit will remain legal, since it was launched in Sept 2006

It would be helpful to have an official statement from the USMS rules committee

Ande

Ande and everyone else:

USMS has provided an official statement. Peter Busch read it on our live edition of The Morning Swim Show today. We have the news update running on our website (http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com), which includes the statement from Rob Copeland.

You can also find it in Jason Marsteller's continually updated story (http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/21182.asp).

The Fortress
May 20th, 2009, 05:57 PM
Ande and everyone else:

USMS has provided an official statement. Peter Busch read it on our live edition of The Morning Swim Show today. We have the news update running on our website (http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com), which includes the statement from Rob Copeland.

You can also find it in Jason Marsteller's continually updated story (http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/21182.asp).

So, according to this, as of this moment, B70s can be worn in a masters sanctioned competition. I guess we await a statement from USA Swimming. The news show was unclear about what would be acceptable at the Janet Evans Invitational.

Banning a suit mid-year seems a bit bizarre. For example, some people have already competed in SCM (e.g., Canadian Nationals), but most will swim in the fall.

knelson
May 20th, 2009, 06:16 PM
Banning a suit mid-year seems a bit bizarre. For example, some people have already competed in SCM (e.g., Canadian Nationals), but most will swim in the fall.

Probably the best time to do it, from a swimming calendar perspective, would be something like September 1st. However, I think Fina is trying to get this sorted out before Rome.

Midas
May 20th, 2009, 06:20 PM
If USMS continues to allow these suits, I wonder how will FINA police this for purposes of their records and top ten lists?

pwb
May 20th, 2009, 07:08 PM
I need to read this closely, but saw it on floswimming: http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/athletesfirst/

Duck
May 20th, 2009, 07:19 PM
Last night at Cif-ss Master meet which is a USA swimming sanctioned meet. The officials followed the Fina guidelines and marked swimmers not in approved suits. Marked swimmers times were not submitted to USA swimming for Juniors or Nationals. Announced at the meet, most of the particants did not know of the ruling. Much confusion for the final high school meet of the year.

jim clemmons
May 20th, 2009, 07:20 PM
USMS has provided an official statement. You can also find it in Jason Marsteller's continually updated story (http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/21182.asp).

From the updated "story":


In other news, U.S. Masters Swimming released the following statement regarding the impact of the FINA ruling on Masters in the U.S.

While FINA has listed the 202 approved swimsuits, FINA has NOT listed the 10 suits that have been "rejected for not passing the tests of buoyancy and/or thickness" or made a ruling on the "136 swimsuits to be modified in accordance with "Dubai Charter". Until FINA provides the definitive list of banned swimsuits and specific actions on the 136, we should not report any suit as banned in a USMS sanctioned event.

With FINA's policy of not releasing banned suit information, Masters swimers in the U.S. will likely be swimming in whatever suit they want until further notice.


I need to read this closely, but saw it on floswimming: http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/athletesfirst/

Great statement/petition but you have to pay a small "tax" to sign it. :cool:

gull
May 20th, 2009, 07:27 PM
Great statement/petition but you have to pay a small "tax" to sign it.

Signing the petition is free. The donation is optional.

jim clemmons
May 20th, 2009, 07:30 PM
Signing the petition is free. The donation is optional.

True - just realized that when I received an email thanking me for signing.

pwb
May 20th, 2009, 07:50 PM
Signing the petition is free. The donation is optional.

Yup. I read it and signed it. No payment necessary.

Allen Stark
May 20th, 2009, 07:50 PM
From the updated "story":


In other news, U.S. Masters Swimming released the following statement regarding the impact of the FINA ruling on Masters in the U.S.

While FINA has listed the 202 approved swimsuits, FINA has NOT listed the 10 suits that have been "rejected for not passing the tests of buoyancy and/or thickness" or made a ruling on the "136 swimsuits to be modified in accordance with "Dubai Charter". Until FINA provides the definitive list of banned swimsuits and specific actions on the 136, we should not report any suit as banned in a USMS sanctioned event.

With FINA's policy of not releasing banned suit information, Masters swimers in the U.S. will likely be swimming in whatever suit they want until further notice.
Great statement/petition but you have to pay a small "tax" to sign it. :cool:
If USMS does this I feel it is a cop out.FINA is clearly saying that the not approved suits are banned.I am not saying that USMS needs to follow this.If we want to say suits that were OK on 1/1/09 are good until 12/31/09 then fine.Either agree with FINA or take a reasoned stand against them,don't pretend to not understand what they are saying(although some confusion on the 136 suits needing modification is in order I suppose.)

BillS
May 20th, 2009, 08:00 PM
From the updated "story":


In other news, U.S. Masters Swimming released the following statement regarding the impact of the FINA ruling on Masters in the U.S.

While FINA has listed the 202 approved swimsuits, FINA has NOT listed the 10 suits that have been "rejected for not passing the tests of buoyancy and/or thickness" or made a ruling on the "136 swimsuits to be modified in accordance with "Dubai Charter". Until FINA provides the definitive list of banned swimsuits and specific actions on the 136, we should not report any suit as banned in a USMS sanctioned event.

With FINA's policy of not releasing banned suit information, Masters swimers in the U.S. will likely be swimming in whatever suit they want until further notice.





Is anyone else wondering why we here on the USMS forum can only find the supposed official USMS statement on Jason Marsteller's site?

Rob? Jim? Is there an official USMS position yet? If so, why is it not front and center here?

The Fortress
May 20th, 2009, 08:20 PM
Either agree with FINA or take a reasoned stand against them.

This seems like a rare occurrence, unfortunately, with FINA in a superior power position, etc.

Doesn't seem like USMS is confused though ... They're just interpreting "approved list" to mean not explicitly banned, subject to clarification, subject to future modification and approval, tentatively unapproved but not per se illegal, etc. The problem with this is swimmers want a real answer: can I swim in X suit and beginning or ending on what date?

I guess we wait to see what USA Swimming says next week.

KEWebb18
May 20th, 2009, 08:32 PM
Is the FSii is covered under the FS umbrella? Maybe?

RobbieD
May 20th, 2009, 08:49 PM
Is anyone else wondering why we here on the USMS forum can only find the supposed official USMS statement on Jason Marsteller's site?

Rob? Jim? Is there an official USMS position yet? If so, why is it not front and center here?

I'm with you... I've been looking for and sending out some e-mails to try and get my hands on something more substantial. I absolutely trust Jason's coverage on the matter, but I still want to see something official and direct from USMS.

Chris Stevenson
May 20th, 2009, 09:31 PM
In other news, U.S. Masters Swimming released the following statement regarding the impact of the FINA ruling on Masters in the U.S.

While FINA has listed the 202 approved swimsuits, FINA has NOT listed the 10 suits that have been "rejected for not passing the tests of buoyancy and/or thickness" or made a ruling on the "136 swimsuits to be modified in accordance with "Dubai Charter". Until FINA provides the definitive list of banned swimsuits and specific actions on the 136, we should not report any suit as banned in a USMS sanctioned event.

With FINA's policy of not releasing banned suit information, Masters swimers in the U.S. will likely be swimming in whatever suit they want until further notice.

I don't appreciate the fact that a suit I just bought (B70 leggings) is banned, when I expected that it would be good thru Dec 31.

Moreover I agree that the reason for banning ("failing to approve" or whatever) sounds pretty flimsy, especially for leggings. And I believe B70 also submitted jammers?

It sucks for B70 and for swimmers as consumers, since it is a durable suit that is cheaper than the (apparently) comparable Speedo suits.

I'm not going to assume Speedo is behind this unless there is strong evidence of that. I think there has been a bias against B70 (see: Craig Lord) and similar companies due to their history as a "wetsuit" company, and the similarity of the suits to wetsuits.

Having said all that...I really hope USMS toes the line and only allows FINA-accepted suits from here on out. Or at the very least follows USA-S in whatever it decides to do.

And work with FINA to straighten out this mess (eg, use quantifiable, objective and transparent criteria; explain the status of "legacy" suits like nylon suits; etc) as necessary.

meldyck
May 20th, 2009, 09:44 PM
Interesting article on what the Japanese Federation is doing:

http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/21195.asp?q=Japanese%20Swimming%20Federation%20Pla ns%20on%20Ratifying%20Ryosuke%20Irie%20Japanese%20 Record,%20Even%20If%20Not%20Ratified%20as%20World% 20Record

ourswimmer
May 20th, 2009, 10:11 PM
Doesn't seem like USMS is confused though ... They're just interpreting "approved list" to mean not explicitly banned, subject to clarification, subject to future modification and approval, tentatively unapproved but not per se illegal, etc. The problem with this is swimmers want a real answer: can I swim in X suit and beginning or ending on what date?

I agree. It now seems clearer what you would have to wear (or to have worn at any time after March 14, 2009) to have a swim count as a WR, or for FINA's annual TT. But it remains unclear what USMS will count for a US national record or for USMS TT.

I am also a bit miffed that none of my bargain-basement tech suits are on the list (except for my FSIs, which are pretty much worn out). Here I was thinking I was so thrifty by investing in a small wardrobe of discontinued older-generation suits rather than in one B70 Nero Comp. But now if I want a shot at a FINA TT (which really, really tickled me for 2008), I gotta go buy a new suit anyway.

The bit about 136 suits being sent back for "modification" seems like a red herring, though. If the manufacturer has to modify the suit for it to pass, then one I bought before the manufacturer modified the design is not going to do, unless the modification is something like "walk all over it with golf spikes."

some_girl
May 20th, 2009, 10:40 PM
The bit about 136 suits being sent back for "modification" seems like a red herring, though. If the manufacturer has to modify the suit for it to pass, then one I bought before the manufacturer modified the design is not going to do, unless the modification is something like "walk all over it with golf spikes."

Right. Which is why the USMS ruling is BS. It is not on the approved list; it is not approved, with the exception of "standard suits". I hope all the people who blamed Speedo for FINA's decisions are in line to blame B70's sponsorship for this one.

swoomer
May 20th, 2009, 11:01 PM
Was "trapping air or water" one of the testing criteria? How was it tested and in what terms was it measured? Was this particular criteria assigned to all of the suits, each of the models, on a variety of body shapes? There must have been more to the testing than was published.

My opinion is that lawyers will be getting involved and things may get dragged out for awhile.

Regardless of personal opinions regarding the suits in general, I must say that USMS is out there on a limb with one of its sponsors. It will be interesting as to how this all gets sorted out. I'm hoping that there will be some sort of rebate or something from B-70, but a reality check tells me that they may not be able to survive a tsunami such as this. Live and learn....

chaos
May 20th, 2009, 11:16 PM
I'm hoping that there will be some sort of rebate or something from B-70, but a reality check tells me that they may not be able to survive a tsunami such as this. Live and learn....

b-70 has a great reputation for making excellent high performance wetsuits. even if there is a sour taste left in the mouths of pool swimmers over this ruling, it will not carry over to those looking for a quality wetsuit and they will no doubt survive. the question is will they continue to pursue the tech suit market? it appears they came up with a cheaper, faster suit than the bigger guys, but with the new fina rules.... is this still possible?

disclaimer: i don't wear wetsuits by b-70 or any other manufacturer for swimming purposes.

Paul Smith
May 21st, 2009, 11:14 AM
Was "trapping air or water" one of the testing criteria? How was it tested and in what terms was it measured? Was this particular criteria assigned to all of the suits, each of the models, on a variety of body shapes?

Rumor has it that Shubert held them under water running from a tap while stuffing dollar bills in his back pocket.

Paul Smith
May 21st, 2009, 11:17 AM
disclaimer: i don't wear wetsuits by b-70 or any other manufacturer for swimming purposes.

Yeah we heard Clare talk about this...something about you only wearing them around the house with bunny slippers...

preeder61
May 21st, 2009, 05:15 PM
Just went over and picked up a Rocket Science (approved) & a Aquasphere (not approved)

No Aqua Sphere suits are approved (or not approved) because Aqua Sphere did not submit any suits to FINA. They are strictly focused on the triathlete market and not competitive swim. They, smartly, have stayed out of this mess and remained true to their market.

geochuck
May 21st, 2009, 05:40 PM
At the heart of the controversy are new suits totally covered with polyurethane to aid buoyancy. The old suits only had polyurethane plates.

joseferraz
May 21st, 2009, 08:19 PM
For information only.
Here is the French Swimming Federation communique regarding the FINA decision:

http://www.ffnatation.fr/dwonload/presse/71.pdf

In short they say that they have waited, and wanted, some ruling from FINA but they came up only now. They also say that the ruling from FINA does not contains all the information such as the list of the rejected and how and why 136 are going to be tested again in one month.
About the air trapping problem they say that FINA has not listed formally how this criteria is measured or controled.
The French federation therefore requests more information. For this the FFN lists 3 points:
1. FFN demands FINA to complete all the information regarding its decision, mainly the list of the suits that have been listed as refused for ever;
2. Requests FINA to provide a certification system (bar codes, etc), that allow the swimmers to verify which suit is OK;
3. FFN will stay alert with respect to the impact of these new measures in the homologation of the world records obtained by french swimmers during the Montpellier Nationals, and that FFN will stay on the side of its athletes so that their performances be considered OK.
4. From now on, and waiting for more information and clarification from FINA, FFN has decided that all competition in France should obey the list of 199 suits approved by FINA.

DocG
May 22nd, 2009, 12:18 AM
You know, after having read the testing procedure for buoyancy, I just shook my head. The machinery is complicated, expensive and will require a certified technician to perform it, not to mention quite a bit of time to perform.

I have a much better idea: Get the suit wet and throw it in the pool. If it sinks, it passes! Anybody can do it, at any pool if there's a question. Way too simple for bureaucrats, I'd bet!

Chris Stevenson
May 22nd, 2009, 04:13 PM
Slate's take on the standard arguments for regulating tech suits:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/blogs/humannature/archive/2009/05/21/the-swimsuit-arms-race.aspx

tdrop
May 23rd, 2009, 08:17 AM
Slate's take on the standard arguments for regulating tech suits:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/blogs/humannature/archive/2009/05/21/the-swimsuit-arms-race.aspx
Thanks for posting this article...one of the better probes into the issue I've read.

Paul Smith
May 23rd, 2009, 09:40 AM
Dennis Baker broke the WR in the 400 free (4:13+) last night at the Cactus Classic sporting his B70...rumors that he wore a FINA sucks shirt on deck are unconfirmed.

Chris Stevenson
May 23rd, 2009, 09:55 AM
Dennis Baker broke the WR in the 400 free (4:13+) last night at the Cactus Classic sporting his B70...rumors that he wore a FINA sucks shirt on deck are unconfirmed.

He went 4:09 last year though.

Chris Stevenson
May 23rd, 2009, 10:00 AM
Thanks for posting this article...one of the better probes into the issue I've read.

I also like one of the companion articles, discussing the issue of price:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/blogs/humannature/archive/2008/11/10/following-suit.aspx

The biggest reason I was a little dismayed that the B70 had been banned is that it was a cheaper and more durable alternative to the LZR and other high-priced suits. Innovative competition among the manufacturers is a good thing and will keep the prices more honest.

Still I think this is just a glitch. B70 -- or someone else -- will again come up with FINA-legal suits that fill this market niche. FINA just needs to be more clear in their criteria to be fair to manufacturers (eg by explaining exactly how they judge the whole "air trapping" thing).

Paul Smith
May 23rd, 2009, 10:11 AM
He went 4:09 last year though.

Not at a masters meet, Cactus has a dual sanction this year for the first time so he took down Mattioli's record of 4:14.81

swoomer
May 23rd, 2009, 12:22 PM
Just for the record, I swam an 8 x 100m set with a giant air bubble trapped in my big, baggy Speedo Endurance workout suit yesterday. It was annoying and distracting, but didn't seem to help my speed. All suits can trap air under the right circumstances. There must be more to that story.

tdrop
May 23rd, 2009, 12:29 PM
I also like one of the companion articles, discussing the issue of price:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/blogs/humannature/archive/2008/11/10/following-suit.aspx

The biggest reason I was a little dismayed that the B70 had been banned is that it was a cheaper and more durable alternative to the LZR and other high-priced suits. Innovative competition among the manufacturers is a good thing and will keep the prices more honest.

Still I think this is just a glitch. B70 -- or someone else -- will again come up with FINA-legal suits that fill this market niche. FINA just needs to be more clear in their criteria to be fair to manufacturers (eg by explaining exactly how they judge the whole "air trapping" thing).
ya, affordability and durability are a must and a fair and open market should drive the suits in that direction. if the suits are going to be around and the only way to get durability and affordability is through polyurethane then maybe that is for the best.

This will all work it self out in the next couple of years.

GGS5T
May 23rd, 2009, 12:33 PM
So now we know.

Those swimsuits which pose a threat to the LZR have been banned. You can be pretty sure that with at least two members of FINA who are on the company payroll, it’s quite clear the process was rigged to protect the LZR while targeting it's formidable competitors.

For whatever reason, FINA has decided that 'the company' deserves an entire monopoly on the fast suit market.

There's only one winner.... $PEEDO

geochuck
May 23rd, 2009, 12:36 PM
I have a hitech suit that has escape seams so no air bubbles can not stay in the suit. It does not trap air inside.


Just for the record, I swam an 8 x 100m set with a giant air bubble trapped in my big, baggy Speedo Endurance workout suit yesterday. It was annoying and distracting, but didn't seem to help my speed. All suits can trap air under the right circumstances. There must be more to that story.

orca1946
May 23rd, 2009, 07:16 PM
I have recommended to many to look at this list B4 they buy!!!

joy
May 23rd, 2009, 07:47 PM
Paul Where did u find the results of the Catus Classic. I have been looking and can't find the results for the 15 & over which Dennis swam in. Swim Info just has the kids results up.
He did have some sort of permission to use his B-70 last nite and sunday in the 200 fly. U were joking about the T-shirt.

pwb
May 23rd, 2009, 07:54 PM
He did have some sort of permission to use his B-70 last nite and sunday in the 200 fly. U were joking about the T-shirt.

No special permission was needed as both USAS and USMS have said there will be no changes to permitted suits until they have official rules meetings (or some such thing) at the end of this month. I'm at the meet and there are a number of kids, as well, competing in B70s. I swam 2 races today in it and no one said a word.

On the results, the right page is http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/specialevents/CactusClassic2009. I think the reason you can't see the senior results is that the meet is being hosted by two teams and I believe they are each responsible for results posting: Scottsdale Aquatic Club runs the 12 & unders and Sun Devil Aquatics is running the 13 & over session. Finals each night, though, are at ASU/Sun Devil, so hopefully they'll get them up in relatively short order.

Jason Marsteller
May 23rd, 2009, 09:50 PM
No special permission was needed as both USAS and USMS have said there will be no changes to permitted suits until they have official rules meetings (or some such thing) at the end of this month. I'm at the meet and there are a number of kids, as well, competing in B70s. I swam 2 races today in it and no one said a word.

On the results, the right page is http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/specialevents/CactusClassic2009. I think the reason you can't see the senior results is that the meet is being hosted by two teams and I believe they are each responsible for results posting: Scottsdale Aquatic Club runs the 12 & unders and Sun Devil Aquatics is running the 13 & over session. Finals each night, though, are at ASU/Sun Devil, so hopefully they'll get them up in relatively short order.

The meet managers got last night's results up, and prelims from today. We will also be posting on-demand video throughout the weekend for finals action.

joy
May 23rd, 2009, 10:07 PM
thanz guys, I just checked back on Swimming World and the results were up. It's very cool to watch 1st hand the kids swimming. I wish we could watch all the meet like this. Great technology.

Jason Marsteller
May 24th, 2009, 06:29 PM
thanz guys, I just checked back on Swimming World and the results were up. It's very cool to watch 1st hand the kids swimming. I wish we could watch all the meet like this. Great technology.

Our guys are working really hard down at the ASU pool. We posted most of the finals from last night. Also, you might be able to find some more of the B finals races from Saturday night on our Blip.TV channel when you click to one of the races on our landing page. Just check out all the episodes.

joy
May 24th, 2009, 08:41 PM
thanz Jason. I just watched the old man swim the 200 fly and win it again
after he won it 2yrs ago. Looked good 2:07.15. I love this technology.
Thanz for all your hard work and dedication to getting these finals out in a timely manor. Keep it up.

Jason Marsteller
May 24th, 2009, 11:49 PM
thanz Jason. I just watched the old man swim the 200 fly and win it again
after he won it 2yrs ago. Looked good 2:07.15. I love this technology.
Thanz for all your hard work and dedication to getting these finals out in a timely manor. Keep it up.

Not a problem. It's fun providing this type of content to our users.

Just linked to the finals races from tonight. Have at it!

Ian Smith
May 25th, 2009, 03:03 PM
Talking of fast old men swimming fly.......Paul, I don't know if you heard about 53 year-old Dan Thompson doing a WR 25.49 for the 50 fly (SCM) at the Canadian Nationals.

This is faster than the 50 fly WR in the age group below his (I won't say whose record that was)

A LZR was used.
Ian.

mattson
May 28th, 2009, 12:20 PM
It strains credibility to believe that any legskin -- whether made entirely of a wholly impermeable fabric or not --could possibly trap more air than a full body suit...

I've been looking for an excuse to post this image:

RJCurwen
June 19th, 2009, 09:33 PM
This still looks like B70 is a mess. Here at USMS looks like its okay. The new rules aren't being applied to masters swimming. How long that lasts ? Not sure.

"A member of the FINA press association was recently quoted as saying that FINA is not applying the regulations of the Dubai Charter to masters swimming. This essentially breaks down to – suits that were legal 2 months ago are legal today for masters competition. This also include records. Suits do not need to be declared for world masters records. Stay tuned for more info."

http://blueseventy.com/news/

RJCurwen
June 20th, 2009, 11:08 AM
More news to come on Monday, reported here at Universalsports.com:

http://www.universalsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPID=11652&DB_OEM_ID=23000&ATCLID=3753651

SwimRobin
June 21st, 2009, 05:38 PM
Mel Monroe Stewart just posted on Facebook that he spoke with Roque Santos - Blue Seventy is back on the approved list! :bliss:

ande
June 21st, 2009, 05:59 PM
yep

Mel Monroe Stewart : it's true. Just heard from RS. Blueseventy is back. Old suits are approved by FINA. (http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/GoldMedalMel?ref=nf)

KEWebb18
June 21st, 2009, 07:01 PM
That will make many people VERY happy :applaud:

Chris Stevenson
June 22nd, 2009, 11:31 AM
I guess everything is allowed now. I didn't think it could get any messier, but I continue to underestimate FINA.

http://www.swimnews.com/News/view/6955

thewookiee
June 22nd, 2009, 11:44 AM
I guess everything is allowed now. I didn't think it could get any messier, but I continue to underestimate FINA.

http://www.swimnews.com/News/view/6955

Chris,

It is never wise to underestimate the ability of a ruling body to surprise people. I see you are swimming in greenville this weekend.

geochuck
June 22nd, 2009, 12:24 PM
Is this posible - the FINIS of FINA.

qbrain
June 22nd, 2009, 12:28 PM
I guess everything is allowed now.

My cheap Yingfa doesn't seem to be approved. So they just didn't blanket approve everything :)

swim53
June 22nd, 2009, 05:18 PM
:applaud::banana::bliss::applaud::banana::bliss:
Yay for B-70!!!!!!!:chug::chug::chug:

Allen Stark
June 22nd, 2009, 09:36 PM
So either 1)-FINA made a careful considered decision
or 2)-people threatened to sue and FINA folded.
What do you think.

jim clemmons
June 22nd, 2009, 10:10 PM
So either 1)-FINA made a careful considered decision
or 2)-people threatened to sue and FINA folded.
What do you think.

I think they made a careful, considered decision that they didn't want to get sued so they selected a careful way out.

tdrop
June 23rd, 2009, 07:33 AM
That guy who writes for swimnews.com really needs to improve his writing skills. I don't care about his opinions. He's entitled to them. But, he would be wise to go and take writing classes if he wants to be more convincing. Or hire an editor...something. I can never get past his writing style to actually hear what he's saying.

thewookiee
June 23rd, 2009, 07:56 AM
That guy who writes for swimnews.com really needs to improve his writing skills. I don't care about his opinions. He's entitled to them. But, he would be wise to go and take writing classes if he wants to be more convincing. Or hire an editor...something. I can never get past his writing style to actually hear what he's saying.


If he would give credit to the athletes for swims they did and didn't mock them for what they were wearing, then more people might respect him. He is entitled to his opinion on suits but I think he is extremely rude in regards to the athletes preformance, esp. foreign athletes.

geochuck
June 23rd, 2009, 09:53 AM
Are the new wet suits soon coming to our pools??

thewookiee
June 23rd, 2009, 11:01 AM
Are the new wet suits soon coming to our pools??

What scientic proof does anyone have to call the suits "wet suits" Has anyone actually done any true testing to see if they really add in buoyance?

Putting on a suit, getting in the water and saying "i felt like i was floating" doesnt' count as actual testing. What one feels and what is actually happening could, may very well be different.

I don't know if the suits float or not. I just think it is silly to say they "float" without proof that is avaiable for everyone to study.

mj_mcgrath
June 23rd, 2009, 11:15 AM
Forbes Carlile, legendary swim coach from Australia, writes about Mr. Consolo who wants FINA in 2010 to ban all swim suits not made from "woven textiles". mjm

Bartolo Consolo, Honorary Secretary of FINA, is asking all swimming federations in a mail vote to agree that from 1 January 2010 competitive swimmers may only use suits made from woven textiles. The federations will almost certainly agree with the Consolo proposition, meaning that all the new generation performance-enhancing suits that appeared from 2008 will be banned from use in competition. FINA will therefore be acknowledging its mistake in allowing these suits to be used during 2008 and 2009.

While this is good news, if Mr Consolo's proposal is adopted that will leave the issue unresolved as to what to do with the unprecedented number of world and other records set in suits which were clearly constructed to be performance-enhancing.

Some of the record times set this year are yet to be ratified and were made in suits which were not approved under current FINA by-laws. However, these by-laws were adopted as a "quick fix" by FINA in March in a move which has since been widely discredited. These by-laws recognise records in the Speedo LZRs but reject those set in other suits used this year because FINA now opts to believe the newer suits may be faster than the LZRs. However the 2009 records set in these later suits rationally should be ratified together with 2008 times.

It has been argued that the East German doping period provides a precedent in that FINA allowed these tainted records to remain without any note as to the circumstances of they circumstandces of they occurring in During the German's doping period. However it should be remembered that whereas it was not known for certain that doping played a part in every record set by an East German, we do know that every record set in the fast suits was performance-enhanced. The argument of precedence therefore is not strictly tenable , and is not a good reason to justify inaction which would allow obvious unfairness, which can be equitably righted,thus preventing staining of the sport.

To honour outstanding swimmers past, present and future; including those who made records in all the performance-enhancing suits worn in 2008 and 2009, the following recommendations should be adopted:

1. All world records which are known to have been set in suits which will be illegal from next year be recognised as records and be marked with an asterisk to acknowledge assisted swims.

2. If the world record has been set in a suit which will be illegal after Jan 1st 2010, then the fastest time made in a woven textile suit (before or after 2008/9) should be noted next to the world record until the "textile" time stands alone as the record.

Forbes Carlile

ViveBene
June 23rd, 2009, 11:21 AM
Forbes Carlile, legendary swim coach from Australia, writes about Mr. Consolo who wants FINA in 2010 to ban all swim suits not made from "woven textiles". mjm

Bartolo Consolo, Honorary Secretary of FINA, is asking all swimming federations in a mail vote to agree that from 1 January 2010 competitive swimmers may only use suits made from woven textiles. The federations will almost certainly agree with the Consolo proposition, meaning that all the new generation performance-enhancing suits that appeared from 2008 will be banned from use in competition. FINA will therefore be acknowledging its mistake in allowing these suits to be used during 2008 and 2009.
<snip>


Forbes Carlile

Oh? They will? And for how long?

geochuck
June 23rd, 2009, 11:40 AM
Wookie, Wookie, Wookie. I know they float they do not need to be tested. No study needed. Divers who wear wet suits to dive need lead weights to help them go underwater. My old wet suit was a 5/8th inch thick neoprene. I had to work hard to get underwater.


What scientic proof does anyone have to call the suits "wet suits" Has anyone actually done any true testing to see if they really add in buoyance?

Putting on a suit, getting in the water and saying "i felt like i was floating" doesnt' count as actual testing. What one feels and what is actually happening could, may very well be different.

I don't know if the suits float or not. I just think it is silly to say they "float" without proof that is avaiable for everyone to study.

jonblank
June 23rd, 2009, 11:41 AM
Forbes Carlile, legendary swim coach from Australia, writes about Mr. Consolo who wants FINA in 2010 to ban all swim suits not made from "woven textiles". mjm

"If the world record has been set in a suit which will be illegal after Jan 1st 2010, then the fastest time made in a woven textile suit (before or after 2008/9) should be noted next to the world record until the "textile" time stands alone as the record.

Forbes Carlile"

While I admire this truly legendary coach, reductio ad absurdum leads one to suggest that there be further adjudication of records to "textile" time vs. "nekkid" time.

thewookiee
June 23rd, 2009, 12:16 PM
Wookie, Wookie, Wookie. I know they float they do not need to be tested. No study needed. Divers who wear wet suits to dive need lead weights to help them go underwater. My old wet suit was a 5/8th inch thick neoprene. I had to work hard to get underwater.

You may know a lot of things and have probably forgotten even more, but you don't know if the tech suits floats like a wet suit.

hofffam
June 23rd, 2009, 12:16 PM
Wookie, Wookie, Wookie. I know they float they do not need to be tested. No study needed. Divers who wear wet suits to dive need lead weights to help them go underwater. My old wet suit was a 5/8th inch thick neoprene. I had to work hard to get underwater.

The question was not whether or not wetsuits float. Instead it was whether or not the new swimsuits float.

A wetsuit is made a neoprene closed cell foam. It is designed to trap air for temperature insulation. It will also float in varying degrees depending on the thickness of the neoprene.

The new suits are typically made of lycra-like material coated with a rubber-like film. The coating is not closed cell foam.

chaos
June 23rd, 2009, 12:54 PM
The question was not whether or not wetsuits float. Instead it was whether or not the new swimsuits float.

A wetsuit is made a neoprene closed cell foam. It is designed to trap air for temperature insulation. It will also float in varying degrees depending on the thickness of the neoprene.

The new suits are typically made of lycra-like material coated with a rubber-like film. The coating is not closed cell foam.

the trap air thing is also silly.... of course the suits trap air. even my speedo endurance suits trap air.
we have entered the era of anything goes, but there will continue to be petty little semantic arguments over what constitutes "air trapping" and floatation. scientists will devise ridiculous testing proceedures and lawyers will argue over their fairness..... and this will be called progress and good for the sport!

OY VEY!

jim clemmons
June 23rd, 2009, 01:03 PM
...but there will continue to be petty little semantic arguments over what constitutes "air trapping" and floatation. scientists will devise ridiculous testing proceedures and lawyers will argue over their fairness..... and this will be called progress and good for the sport!



and will, in essence, only contribute to increased costs to the suit manufacturers which will, of course, be passed along to the consumer - us.

:mad:

meldyck
June 23rd, 2009, 01:04 PM
The question was not whether or not wetsuits float. Instead it was whether or not the new swimsuits float.

A wetsuit is made a neoprene closed cell foam. It is designed to trap air for temperature insulation. It will also float in varying degrees depending on the thickness of the neoprene.

The new suits are typically made of lycra-like material coated with a rubber-like film. The coating is not closed cell foam.

As a technical matter, neoprene has a specific gravity ranging between about 1.25 and 1.60 (http://www.zenithrubber.com/rubber-sheets/chloroprene.htm). By definition of specific gravity, this means that neoprene is denser than water and hence will not float. The material that is used in wet suits is not just neoprene but neoprene with trapped air to reduce the specific gravity so that the modified material can float. Technical suits made of primitive neoprene cannot float on account of that composition alone, that is, without the addition of trapped air in the fabric.

Natural rubber, on the other hand, has a specific gravity < 1 (http://www.molders.com/rubber_engineering_guide.html) and, hence, will float. Suits made of combinations of this material or similar materials, in combination with other fabrics will have a tendency to float.

Ripple
June 23rd, 2009, 02:03 PM
...Bartolo Consolo, Honorary Secretary of FINA, is asking all swimming federations in a mail vote to agree that from 1 January 2010 competitive swimmers may only use suits made from woven textiles...

This guy needs to learn the difference between knitting and weaving. If they only allow "woven" suits, then technically a Lycra or Chloroban practice suit is illegal.

geochuck
June 23rd, 2009, 02:28 PM
Back to the industrial revolution and even before that. Weave the material and cut, paste and/or sew them together with bone needles. Weave the suits with wool, cotton, or silk fibers get rid of nylon, propolene. Maybe we can make the suits out of rayon a wood fibre.

Knit swimming suits have been around for ever. Throw them away???

Who are these so called intelligent people?? We must go back to the stone age get rid of round tires and operate with square wheels.

Next they will say wear animal skins. Will they allow the floating hairs of the Wolverine to be left on the swim suits??

Assemble you own swim suit plans I think they will be approved. http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://s3.amazonaws.com/static.eyeblend.tv/media/gcpic-29236/original&imgrefurl=http://globalcoordinate.com/media/gcpic-29236/show.html&usg=__wDgXV7jzpJBsVmyN0CYLO_McTpU=&h=293&w=436&sz=150&hl=en&start=9&sig2=lI8IPjWBU5sbn3RAKdH80A&um=1&tbnid=lBYCpROegTcFGM:&tbnh=85&tbnw=126&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dloin%2Bclothe%26hl%3Den%26rls%3Dcom.m icrosoft:en-ca:IE-SearchBox%26rlz%3D1I7HPIA_en%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1&ei=jytBSofrNqK6tAP2_4y5CQ

Allen Stark
June 23rd, 2009, 08:09 PM
I have done this test.Take a Nero Comp.Drop it dry into the water.It floats.Take it and wring it out under water.Now it doesn't float.Now lift it out of the water and wave it around in the air and drop it again.It floats.Also put it on dry and dive in the water,you can feel the air trapped in the suit.

pwb
June 23rd, 2009, 08:23 PM
While I admire this truly legendary coach, reductio ad absurdum leads one to suggest that there be further adjudication of records to "textile" time vs. "nekkid" time.

Won't we have a perfect opportunity with World Masters in Sweden to truly test the advantage of suits versus "nekkid" time? I believe that the men's events and women's events are being held in different facilities. Simply make the entire event single sex at each pool (officials, timers, fans) and swim "nekkid." Truly, I think this is where the "swimming purists" are taking us.

As for me, I'll be in San Juan.

Chris Stevenson
June 23rd, 2009, 10:23 PM
Also put it on dry and dive in the water,you can feel the air trapped in the suit.

That is true of every single full-body suit I have ever worn. The air quickly gets displaced with water. The B70s are stretchier than the fastskins, I have much more of a problem with it filling with water, not air.