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View Full Version : Legal fly? - Calling P. Wolf



aquageek
May 27th, 2009, 06:02 PM
It is almost a humiliation that I ask this question. Can someone post the USA Swimming link or adequately describe the legal butterfly. I have a brewing situation with 3 fly kicks to 1 fly pull. It sure looks odd but I don't know if it is technically legal.

jim clemmons
May 27th, 2009, 06:17 PM
http://www.usaswimming.org/USASWeb/_Rainbow/Documents/61e9dada-8b3b-4550-a88a-e7739539fdfe/2009%20Swimming%20Mini%20rules%20PP.pdf

Page 26.

jim clemmons
May 27th, 2009, 06:22 PM
Just for reference, here's the link to the entire Rules and Reg's page for USA Swimming.

http://www.usaswimming.org/USASWeb/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabId=95&Alias=Rainbow&Lang=en

knelson
May 27th, 2009, 06:24 PM
The short answer is you can take as many kicks per stroke cycle as you want. I'm pretty sure you could technically do legal fly without ever doing a pull (as long as you surface by the 15 meter mark). Ande and Leslie could probably beat most of us using this technique :)

aquageek
May 27th, 2009, 06:54 PM
Very helpful, thanks. I found it interesting that you can stop and stand on the bottom in free without getting DQ'd but not in the other strokes.

I am a bit disappointed as I was looking forward to tossing my first 7/8 this Summer.

jim clemmons
May 27th, 2009, 06:58 PM
Very helpful, thanks. I found it interesting that you can stop and stand on the bottom in free without getting DQ'd but not in the other strokes.

I am a bit disappointed as I was looking forward to tossing my first 7/8 this Summer.

I guess that's what you'd call "free to stand". :cool:

What's "tossing your first 7/8"? :confused:

Ahelee Sue Osborn
May 27th, 2009, 06:59 PM
The short answer is you can take as many kicks per stroke cycle as you want. I'm pretty sure you could technically do legal fly without ever doing a pull (as long as you surface by the 15 meter mark). Ande and Leslie could probably beat most of us using this technique :)


I actually use this "legal fly" trick to get my swimmers to swim more fly than they think possible in practice sessions.


Dolphin kick and take a full butterfly stroke
only when you need a breath!

Yes, it is perfectly legal.

I can say that I have personally used this legal fly technique.

#1 - Boldly planned when I swam a 200 fly at the Rose Bowl Meet last SC season.

#2 - In an effort to "float the fly" at the end of the 1st leg of a 400IM - (actually have done this several times!)

aquageek
May 27th, 2009, 06:59 PM
What's "tossing your first 7/8"? :confused:

DQ a 7/8 year old.

pwolf66
May 27th, 2009, 07:46 PM
You just thought you had your target all lined up, didn't you. Sorry to :badday:


Remember the only stroke that has a defined arm pull/kick requirement is Breaststroke. The other 3 do not specify any correlation between arm pulls and kicks. So someone swimming Fly, Back or Free can do it all arm pulls or all kicks, as long as the other stroke requirements are met.

pwolf66
May 27th, 2009, 07:48 PM
Very helpful, thanks. I found it interesting that you can stop and stand on the bottom in free without getting DQ'd but not in the other strokes.


Go back and re-read the rules as it pertains to body position and you'll have your answer. It's because Free is the only stroke that does not specify body position, either rotated towards the back (Back) or rotated towards the breast (Breast and Fly). So in those three strokes, if a swimmer stands up, is that swimmer's body position clearly rotated to the correct position? Nope, unfortunately not.

SwimStud
May 27th, 2009, 08:30 PM
Go back and re-read the rules as it pertains to body position and you'll have your answer. It's because Free is the only stroke that does not specify body position, either rotated towards the back (Back) or rotated towards the breast (Breast and Fly). So in those three strokes, if a swimmer stands up, is that swimmer's body position clearly rotated to the correct position? Nope, unfortunately not.


...but Paul at zones you swam the last 20 of your 100 fly standing up...

:D

elise526
May 27th, 2009, 11:33 PM
DQ a 7/8 year old.

Geek - You really aren't going to be too hard on those poor little kids are you?

elise526
May 27th, 2009, 11:35 PM
I actually use this "legal fly" trick to get my swimmers to swim more fly than they think possible in practice sessions.


Dolphin kick and take a full butterfly stroke
only when you need a breath!

Yes, it is perfectly legal.

I can say that I have personally used this legal fly technique.

#1 - Boldly planned when I swam a 200 fly at the Rose Bowl Meet last SC season.

#2 - In an effort to "float the fly" at the end of the 1st leg of a 400IM - (actually have done this several times!)

I like this! I was kind of thinking the same thing today when I did a 100 fly.

aquageek
May 28th, 2009, 04:51 AM
Geek - You really aren't going to be too hard on those poor little kids are you?

No, I don't plan on being unduly harsh, more interested in the fly rules given this unorthodox stroke.

thewookiee
May 28th, 2009, 08:11 AM
DQ a 7/8 year old.

The only reason Geek wants to DQ a 7-8 year old, is because he is jealous that they have a faster reaction time off the blocks than he does. If he didn't tower over them, they would destroy him the way king kong destroyed nyc

pwolf66
May 28th, 2009, 08:23 AM
...but Paul at zones you swam the last 20 of your 100 fly standing up...

:D

No, not true, at least a Zones. Nats on the other hand..................

:bow: :bow: :bow:

aquageek
May 28th, 2009, 08:46 AM
If he didn't tower over them, they would destroy him the way king kong destroyed nyc

Your use of a hairy creature to make a point is somewhat ironic.

thewookiee
May 28th, 2009, 08:53 AM
...but Paul at zones you swam the last 20 of your 100 fly standing up...

:D

Stud...you are mistaken...it was only the last 10 yds at zones.

orca1946
May 28th, 2009, 03:49 PM
I tell our swimmers to slow it down when tired & do more kicks. This will get them onto 100 & 200 fly sets.

meldyck
May 28th, 2009, 05:28 PM
It is almost a humiliation that I ask this question. Can someone post the USA Swimming link or adequately describe the legal butterfly. I have a brewing situation with 3 fly kicks to 1 fly pull. It sure looks odd but I don't know if it is technically legal.

Geek,

there was an Australian butterflier named O'Neill that you may have heard of who used the three-beat kick with her fly. It seemed to work pretty well for her, so who knows...

I always use the three beat kick for swimming 100 and 200 fly and a competitor in my age group has told me he uses four beats.

elise526
May 28th, 2009, 10:25 PM
Your use of a hairy creature to make a point is somewhat ironic.

The banter between the two of you is most enjoyable to read - one of my favorite things on the forum. :)

SwimStud
May 28th, 2009, 11:03 PM
The banter between the two of you is most enjoyable to read - one of my favorite things on the forum. :)

I thought it was more like a courtship in the deep south...
:D

Gail Roper
May 28th, 2009, 11:37 PM
If you do a 3-4 beat kick in the fly, you still have to stay "on the surface" so that means if you kick 3-4, then you can't submerge your head, is that true?

pwolf66
May 29th, 2009, 04:52 AM
If you do a 3-4 beat kick in the fly, you still have to stay "on the surface" so that means if you kick 3-4, then you can't submerge your head, is that true?

Yes, the swimmer's head must break the surface of the water by the 15m mark and some part of the swimmer's body must remain at or above the surface of the water at all times after that with the exception of right before the turn or the finish.

thewookiee
May 29th, 2009, 07:45 AM
I thought it was more like a courtship in the deep south...
:D

The women that I am attracted to wear less make-up than geek.

pwolf66
May 29th, 2009, 08:09 AM
The women that I am attracted to wear less make-up than geek.

http://groundnotes.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/june6_2005mmm.jpg

thewookiee
May 29th, 2009, 08:13 AM
http://groundnotes.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/june6_2005mmm.jpg

That's the first time I have seen geek in months. The new diet is doing wonders for him.