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View Full Version : Limit on Number of Events - Who Knew?



brigidbunch
June 28th, 2009, 01:13 PM
I was wondering if I was the only Master's swimmer who didn't know that there was a five event limit on all meets? As an Arizona swimmer, I signed up for the MV LCM meet a couple of weeks ago because there was no event limit on the meet flyer. I like to swim a lot of things (more bang for my buck, so to speak). I entered ten events on-line (not knowing I was being a criminal). Nobody refuted my entry. Imagine my sadness when a week after my swims I was informed that I was retroactively DQ'ed for events 6-10! These were some of my best times ever. I am really down about this. I even asked our LMSC Director the year before (after attending a MV meet and swimming 10 events) why Arizona couldn't allow more events per day and I was told it is up to the Meet Director as to how may events are to be permitted.

What are your thoughts? Am I being a baby or do I have a right to feel ripped off?

pwolf66
June 28th, 2009, 09:22 PM
Well, if the meet flyer did not specify a limit then I think you have a right to complain. AFAIK there is not a limit on the number of events that can be entered in a single meet defined in the USMS rulebook but every meet I've entered in the last 2 years has had the event limit clearly stated on the meet announcement.

But I think I may understand the issue. The SPMA site states in the meet entry section "Please use this form to submit your entries for any of our meets. Also, please enclose a photo copy of your USMS registration card. You may enter up to 5 individual events plus relays for one day meets. Championship meets will state max number of daily events in the meet information. There is no need to enclose the meet information sheet found below. "

I've noticed that the meet announcement forms do not state an event entry limit. I'm assuming that the powers that be for SPMA feel that the statement on the website constitutes sufficient notification of event limits for SPMA meets. Since SPMA requires entries to be submitted using the SPMA consolidated meet entry form, they may also feel that the announcement on that form of a 5 event per day limit should be adequate. Personally, I disagree and feel it should be included on every meet announcement. If I happened to travel out to that area and just searched for meet announcements without going to the SPMA site, I would come to same conclusion and if hit by the Imp of the Perverse :afraid: could possibly enter more than 5 events thinking it was OK.

Also, the meet director and the meet referee have no leeway to alter the meet from what is stated in the meet announcement.

My vote would be that ALL your swims should count. There should not be an assumption that a swimmer will go to a website to find out meet requirements. If should be listed on the meet announcement.

The Fortress
June 28th, 2009, 10:08 PM
I was wondering if I was the only Master's swimmer who didn't know that there was a five event limit on all meets? As an Arizona swimmer, I signed up for the MV LCM meet a couple of weeks ago because there was no event limit on the meet flyer. I like to swim a lot of things (more bang for my buck, so to speak). I entered ten events on-line (not knowing I was being a criminal). Nobody refuted my entry. Imagine my sadness when a week after my swims I was informed that I was retroactively DQ'ed for events 6-10! These were some of my best times ever. I am really down about this. I even asked our LMSC Director the year before (after attending a MV meet and swimming 10 events) why Arizona couldn't allow more events per day and I was told it is up to the Meet Director as to how may events are to be permitted.

What are your thoughts? Am I being a baby or do I have a right to feel ripped off?

A retroactive DQ? Is it even legal to DQ someone on this particular basis retroactively? Don't think so ... they let you swim, it's their problem and you shouldn't be penalized.

Totally stinks, Brigid! The meet director, upon receiving your entries, should have contacted you to inform you of the 5 event SPMA rule --especially since it was not on the meet entry form -- and given you a chance to modify your entries. I would ask that this rule be waived in this instance as you, as an out of state swimmer, were reasonably relying on the meet entry form for guidance and on the meet director to enforce the entry rules. Their fault, not yours.

Also, if worst comes to worst, is it possible that YOU could select the 5 events you'd like to count and not just have 6-10 automatically selected?

Legal swims should not be simply thrown out. I vote that they should count as well.

Frosty
June 28th, 2009, 10:16 PM
You're post didn't specify if this was a one-day or multiple-day meet. Nonetheless...

- The Rule Book specifies a five-event limit (for individual events) per day. Why five events? Those who have been around USMS long enough believe that this is a health and safety issue...that swimming more than five events in a day is a health risk. The daily five-event limit was never intended to be a tool to manage the length of a meet.

- The fact that this limit is in the rule book is something that you should know, so perhaps you are correct in that you are the only one who doesn't know this because everyone else knows what the rules are.

- In the case of the multiple-day meet, the total number of splashes you are allowed is governed by LMSC policy and the race director's discretion. This is something that must be published in the meet information. If it wasn't published, that is the fault of meet management.

- If you indeed signed up for the meet "on-line", there should have been a mechanism that prevented you from signing up for events beyond the limit imposed by the meet management/LMSC. Therefore, the meet management screwed up in this case.

- If this was a case of a one-day meet, the meet management should never have let you race more than five times...because of the daily five-event limit and what it is meant for. That would be plainly irresponsible on the meet management's part. Simply canceling or DQing your extra results is an administrative cover-up.

pwolf66
June 29th, 2009, 06:42 AM
Whoops, completely missed section 102.6 of the rule book which states the five event limit per day.

My appologies for providing you incorrect info, and contrary to what Frosty states that 'everyone else knows the rules' I didn't know that that there was a 5 event limit per day.

aquageek
June 29th, 2009, 08:11 AM
I'll give you credit for 10 events. That is an impressive undertaking.

swoomer
June 29th, 2009, 10:34 AM
If they are retroactively eliminating five of your swims to comply with the rules, I think you should have a say as to which five are eliminated. They messed up by not questioning your entry before the swims, and therefore should give you the choice. That way they get to enforce the rules and you get to count your best swims.

osterber
June 29th, 2009, 11:48 AM
As others have pointed out, it's a USMS rule for 5 events per day.

In USA Swimming, there is a similar rule... in a timed final meet, 5 events per day. In a prelims/finals meet, 3 events per day. In USA Swimming where time trials are a factor... the rule is that a time trial swim counts towards your limit of 3 or 5 swims in the day. (But does not, generally, count towards the limit for a meet over the week-end.)

It's simply a health and safety thing.

Regarding the DQs... the interpretation of things like that has been relatively unwavering in my experience with that. The USMS rule I believe says you can only compete in 5 per day. In USMS, most meets will limit you to 5 entries per day, and assume you may swim all of your events.

Especially in the USA Swimming context, it is common to over-enter events on any day, and then scratch down appropriately. I've never seen this allowed in a USMS context, because it just gets confusing for people. Also, USMS has a no-penalty no-show policy, whereas USA Swimming (generally) penalizes for a no-show.

In USA Swimming, for meets where there is a scratch deadline (usually the evening before), it is the responsibility of the Administrative Referee or Clerk of Course to make sure nobody is over-entered for the next day. If there's a limit of 5 events, and you're still in 6, then the AdminRef should automatically scratch you from the last event to be swum that day.

In the USMS context, if you swim 6 events in a day where there is a limit of 5, the retroactive DQ is rather clear. When you dove in for swims #1, #2, #3, #4, and #5, you were in compliance with the rules. As soon as you dove in for swim #6, you were over the limit. The first five events were closed for you.

It does happen from time to time that these administrative rules need to get applied retroactively. For example, if it were determined after-the-fact that your USMS registration card was fraudulent, you would obviously be DQed from all events retroactively.

-Rick

Kevin in MD
June 29th, 2009, 12:09 PM
You must admit that since I can sign up for a sanctioned 25k national championships, using safety as the reason to limit someone to 6 swims all of which are 500 yards or under is a little silly.

jroddin
June 29th, 2009, 01:09 PM
Kevin,

I sort of see your point (you could make a similar point that saying a 1650 pool event is longer than 5 other misc pool events).

However, keep in mind a cardiologist may in fact say a slow paced 25k is less risky health-wise than doing four all out 50 sprints followed by an all out 100 IM. I'm not a physician or in health care but do understand why capping 5 events in a day makes sense. Go ahead and knock yourself out in practice, but not on the meet director's watch...

Jeff in MD

nkfrench
June 29th, 2009, 01:23 PM
Event limits can also used to control meet timelines and to even out distribution of team points (a solid team with good depth can then outscore a lesser team that has one outstanding swimmer).

brigid bunch
June 29th, 2009, 02:35 PM
If they are retroactively eliminating five of your swims to comply with the rules, I think you should have a say as to which five are eliminated. They messed up by not questioning your entry before the swims, and therefore should give you the choice. That way they get to enforce the rules and you get to count your best swims.


I think like Swoomer. I sent three e-mails requesting such a discussion with the person who DQ'ed me; but, never got a response.

james lucas
June 29th, 2009, 03:35 PM
1. If the rule says you can't swim 6 events in a day, then it only makes sense that you'd be disqualified for any event after your 5th one. You only broke the rule by swimming events #6 and beyond - you can't shift your DQ to the earlier events because those swims complied with the rule.

2. Aren't all disqualifications "after the fact," or "retroactive"? Last summer, a judge DQ'd me for an illegal fly kick in an IM - but the judge didn't tell me in real time, which meant that my swim was meaningless but painful nonetheless.

3. It would be nice if all of the meet software had features to enforce compliance with all the rules. And maybe someone knows a kid who knows C++ and wants to spend an afternoon writing the add-in code to scan for online violations. Until then, however, it looks like some rules will be enforced in the same way the IRS enforces its rules: you self-report your tax, and your compliance is enforced by selective audits, by reviews for violations that are obvious, and there's special enforcement if you want to be Secretary of the Treasury (or, in the case of masters, if you want your swim to count for a record). I, for one, like the on-line entry systems, their limits notwithstanding.

Meanwhile, it's a bummer, not having the swims count. I hope you get another shot at those swims ...

jim clemmons
June 29th, 2009, 04:02 PM
2. Aren't all disqualifications "after the fact," or "retroactive"? Last summer, a judge DQ'd me for an illegal fly kick in an IM - but the judge didn't tell me in real time, which meant that my swim was meaningless but painful nonetheless.



Ahhhhhhhh, but no swim is "meaningless", unless nothing is learned, grasshopper.

And, yes, most are "after the fact". False starts, arriving to the blocks too late, etc., being a couple of exceptions. Certainly there are more.

ehoch
June 29th, 2009, 04:49 PM
These were some of my best times ever.

Totally agree with you, but also have to point out that you should not be able to swim 10 events all-out - if you do best times after event 5, you have speed issues.

osterber
June 29th, 2009, 05:03 PM
3. It would be nice if all of the meet software had features to enforce compliance with all the rules. And maybe someone knows a kid who knows C++ and wants to spend an afternoon writing the add-in code to scan for online violations.


Just about any meet management software has this capability (detecting too many events).

-Rick

brigidbunch
June 29th, 2009, 05:51 PM
I have more than speed issues! I think I might have 'head case' issues. The more events I swim, the less time to anticipate the swim, the better my times!

orca1946
June 29th, 2009, 06:37 PM
Will they now refund your $$ for the events that did not count??

RobbieD
June 29th, 2009, 07:38 PM
Will they now refund your $$ for the events that did not count??

If MV = Mission Viejo, that meet was a flat fee entry. $20 no matter if you swam 1 event or 5 events

nkfrench
June 29th, 2009, 09:25 PM
Will they now refund your $$ for the events that did not count??

My experience is mostly with USAS meets. In my area:
DQs are never refunded, and your time isn't an official time.
Meet hosts generally don't refund entry fees for whatever purpose - death in family, rainouts, illness, swine flu, pool closed, etc. If you get a credit or a refund that's pretty generous of the meet host.

Usually there is no limit on entries, just on how many you actually swim. So any entries system (online or manual) can't prevent you from over-entering but it would be nice if there was a warning.

As far as Meet Management software being able to report, it is kind of a nuisance as it will cheerfully report how many entries a swimmer made but not how many were swum, so it's hard to keep up with status as the meet progresses. Many of the Masters meets I've been at run a skeleton meet operations/officiating crew so this can fall through the cracks.

jim clemmons
June 29th, 2009, 11:09 PM
If MV = Mission Viejo, that meet was a flat fee entry. $20 no matter if you swam 1 event or 5 events

...or even 10!

:cool:

james lucas
June 30th, 2009, 01:01 AM
Despite the DQ, I found the disputed times in the USMS results system. Go to the individual listing - the time is reported as a DQ, but click on the heat and you'll find the time, with splits.. In the 200 back, for example, the time at MV was about five seconds faster than the seed time, which was plenty fast. Rules are rules, but I'd be disappointed if I had a DQ after a swim like that ...

orca1946
July 1st, 2009, 05:46 PM
Well, good times are better than no time. After all 10 events is a great way to find out if you are in shape !!