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rtodd
July 1st, 2009, 10:06 PM
It seems like I do better in fly if I make an effort to ride high in the water. Sometimes I try to convert all of my pull into forward motion and I feel like I am sinking and my body is too low in the water.

Should a good part of the pull be used to regain height in the water? Is this the primary function of the pull? Does most of the forward gain come from the recovery portion with high hips rather than the pull?

Still trying to figure this stroke out.

ande
July 1st, 2009, 10:23 PM
make a video zoom in
put it on youtube
ask for comments

we need to see what you're doing

rtodd
July 1st, 2009, 10:26 PM
Yes, I'm at the point I need to do that.

orca1946
July 2nd, 2009, 05:28 PM
High out of the water is not good, but RIDING high in the water is

qbrain
July 2nd, 2009, 06:16 PM
Should a good part of the pull be used to regain height in the water? Is this the primary function of the pull?

Hey Rob,

I try to get really high on my pull and get clear out of the water if at all possible during fly. The higher you get, the easier it is to spin around and sit on the side, staying out of the way, while others swim fly. If you get high enough, you can get your feet on the deck and make your way to the locker room for a "bathroom break."

Hope that helps.

Chris Stevenson
July 2nd, 2009, 06:17 PM
Phelps' low recovery, with chin in the water, is all the rage now.

It is interesting to read what Maglischo writes on the subject (and to look at the picture on the cover of "Swimming Fastest").


Pushing drag will be reduced if swimmers recovery the arms high enough over the water that they reach the entry position before they make contact with the water. One way swimmers keep the arms free of the water is by allowing the head and shoulders to rise out of the water, much like the arm recovery in the breaststroke. This description runs counter to traditional beliefs about the butterfly arm recovery. The usual recommendations are that swimmers should recover the arms low and laterally over the water and should keep the chin and shoulders in the water. Recovering the arms low supposedly reduces the work required while keeping the body horizontal to reduce form drag. In actuality, however, recovering the arms in this way makes it extremely difficult for swimmers to keep from pushing the arms forward through the water...

He goes on to caution against overdoing it, becoming too vertical during recovery.

In answer to another of your questions, I think the most of the forward motion comes during the pull, not the recovery.

nkfrench
July 2nd, 2009, 07:33 PM
A mental image I like to entertain is of an athlete in flight attempting to clear the bar using a Fosbury Flop. The athlete keeps as much of his body below the height of the bar and just arches parts of the body up in sequence with a rolling motion as they cross the bar. While the objectives for swimming fly and high-jumping are quite different, the mechanisms appear to have some parallels using center of gravity and balance.

rtodd
July 2nd, 2009, 08:04 PM
Pushing drag will be reduced if swimmers recovery the arms high enough over the water that they reach the entry position before they make contact with the water. One way swimmers keep the arms free of the water is by allowing the head and shoulders to rise out of the water, much like the arm recovery in the breaststroke. This description runs counter to traditional beliefs about the butterfly arm recovery. The usual recommendations are that swimmers should recover the arms low and laterally over the water and should keep the chin and shoulders in the water. Recovering the arms low supposedly reduces the work required while keeping the body horizontal to reduce form drag. In actuality, however, recovering the arms in this way makes it extremely difficult for swimmers to keep from pushing the arms forward through the water...


I think when I try to push the stroke for maximum forward motion a la the "Phelps" way, I encounter the problems listed above. I don't get the arms recovered fully before the entry but if I am more patient and don't rush the stroke I get my shoulders out and can complete the recovery. When I try riding higher I feel I am also getting the hips higher and I am getting my backside up to the surface where it needs to be.

Maybe Cseh is too high in the water, but it's interesting to see it done both ways.

I'm still wondering how I can go under 30 in the 50SCY fly, but can't complete a 100. I need to figure out what gives best stroke efficiency.

quicksilver
July 2nd, 2009, 09:51 PM
Hey Rob,

Scroll down the page and watch this girl swim fly...just as you described. High recovery. She makes it look easy with the arms getting little interference with the water.

http://www.championshipproductions.com/cgi-bin/champ/p/Swimming/Swimming-Faster-Butterfly_MD-02210D.html


The low chin al Phelps can keep your hips up, but you may wind up bogging down and creating form drag.

bud
July 6th, 2009, 04:10 PM
this really got my attention from the above link:
"...teach a swimmer maximum efficiency with a focus on keeping balance forward."

it fits with what i've learned about butterfly regarding "think forward, not up."

i've been practicing fly since at least 2001, and i still cannot do it to my satisfaction "at will". but there are times when everything seems to fit and it is just a relaxed, fluid series of movements... and i feel well balanced moving through the water (not too much unlike "front quadrant swimming"). timing is definitely a key component.

How high?

I'd say high enough to get a clean breath and recovery, but not so high that it kills your speed (going up more than forward). keeping the hips high seems more important than getting the head or shoulders high for a breath or the recovery.