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DanSad
July 14th, 2009, 12:39 PM
I was looking over the high school records and noticed one glaring disparity. The oldest record on the books is the boys public 500 yard free, set in 1983 by Jeff Kostoff at 4:16.39. The next oldest boys record is in 1991. The oldest girls record is the 100 fly set in 1996 by Misty Hyman. Any ideas as to why that one has stood for so long?

http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/results/records/USA_High_School_Records.pdf

Paul Smith
July 14th, 2009, 12:47 PM
I was looking over the high school records and noticed one glaring disparity. The oldest record on the books is the boys public 500 yard free, set in 1983 by Jeff Kostoff at 4:16.39. The next oldest boys record is in 1991. The oldest girls record is the 100 fly set in 1996 by Misty Hyman. Any ideas as to why that one has stood for so long?

http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/results/records/USA_High_School_Records.pdf

A) He was a phenom
B) A general lack of interest among kids to train that hard
C) College scholarships are skewed towards sprinters

ehoch
July 14th, 2009, 12:51 PM
The short answer is " because it's a Bad A.. swim" - it's a very fast time - no matter what.

The longer answer has 2 parts (actually 3 now) to it:

- not sure if Kostoff was rested / tapered, but in these days few swimmers taper or rest for highschool meets - unrested, the time is even more impossible to achieve

- distance swimming is not as dominant any more in age group swimming. Most age groupers strive to get a scholarship -- with the emergence of the 50s and the 4x50 relays for colleges, there is an absolute premium demand for sprinters. A good sprinter is twice as valuable to a program than a good distance swimmer. Therefore, kids go towards the shorter distances.

- not sure about the suit rules for high school swimming, but the suits don't help distance swimmers as much. That's why the Men's 1500 is still on the book as the oldest world record (and because it's a bad a.. swim)

jroddin
July 14th, 2009, 01:28 PM
Every now and then a swimming publication will write about the hardest workers of all time in practice and often Kostoff ends up #1. I remember Swimming World once reporting a few of his remarkable sets. My memory is foggy but one was doing either 3 or 4 x 5000 yard swims on 50 minutes with the last one descended into the 46+ minute range. I think he *only* did three of them but maybe it was four. Another set was 10x400 IM on 4:20 (scy). While at Stanford his coach had him do 3x1650 on the NCAA cut. I think that was before "A" and "B" cuts so whatever the cut was that year in school, that was his interval. I also heard he did cross country (running) at Stanford and was amazingly fast in a 10k, so obviously he had the cardio thing going for him.

I think Phelps went around 4:18 when he was a junior in high school but turned Pro before his senior year so never was eligible to go for the record.

I'm sure Skip Thompson has far more details on some of Jeff's sets.

Jeff lives near me and was active in Masters swimming for a while. Here is a link to an interview with him by our LMSC newsletter editor many years ago:
http://artemis.crosslink.net/~cherylw/jeffintr.htm

knelson
July 14th, 2009, 01:44 PM
Kostoff was definitely a beast. He was a hero of mine growing up and I remember reading about his accomplishment in Swimming World frequently in the mid '80s. Southern Cal was a real hotbed for distance swimming in those days. Mission Viejo had lots of great distance swimmers, but Kostoff chose to train at Industry Hills instead. Interestingly, he made the U.S. Olympic team in both 1984 and 1988 in the 400 IM, but never a freestyle event.

Kostoff also still holds the record for the 3,000 yard swim for 18 year olds with a 27:39.81. You break that down and it's holding 3x1000 at a 9:13 average, or 30x100 at around 55.

Chris Stevenson
July 14th, 2009, 01:59 PM
Jeff lives near me and was active in Masters swimming for a while. Here is a link to an interview with him by our LMSC newsletter editor many years ago:
http://artemis.crosslink.net/~cherylw/jeffintr.htm

Cool interview, thanks for the link! Hopefully he returns to masters swimming some day.

pwb
July 14th, 2009, 03:25 PM
Hopefully he returns to masters swimming some day.

That would be way cool. Everything I ever heard, read about the guy was that he was a training animal. I remember doing a dual meet with him in the 1000 during my freshman or sophomore year in college; I'd like to say I raced him, but I was merely in the same pool. It was very humbling swimming a decent time (for me) and still get lapped.

DanSad
July 14th, 2009, 03:43 PM
OP here: while continuing to surf on this issue I dug up some info on a set I was unaware of. Has anyone ever heard of this set Joe Hudepohl did?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Hudepohl

jim clemmons
July 14th, 2009, 04:26 PM
From the Jeff Kostoff interview:


Q: Have you heard that caffeine can enhance your swimming performance?

A: Oh yes. It releases free-floating fatty acids, slows the depletion of glycogen stores, stimulates the Central Nervous System and raises the pulse rate and blood pressure. I don't drink coffee while training - only before a race.

Well, there's at least one thing we have in common... :anim_coffee:

mctrusty
July 14th, 2009, 04:35 PM
OP here: while continuing to surf on this issue I dug up some info on a set I was unaware of. Has anyone ever heard of this set Joe Hudepohl did?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Hudepohl

Just a wee bit of editorializing in that entry :D. I've never heard of the "Hudepohl set" but it looks to me like a variation on a basic ladder set.

DPC
July 14th, 2009, 04:36 PM
I remember the story - he was a big gun back in the early mand mid 90's. That set is crazy especially at the speed he did it. I'm surprised he didn't have more success individually in events.

knelson
July 14th, 2009, 05:06 PM
It's a 7,200 yard or meter set, so the bit about "few people have ever finished..." the set is probably a little overblown. Maybe "making it" means making a 1:00/100 interval for the entire set? Yeah, that would be tough alright.

aquageek
July 14th, 2009, 05:16 PM
Hudepohl is the big name in Northern Kentucky/Cincinnati (mostly due to Hudephl Brewing Company). I have emailed a teammate of mine who is from the area and would have competed against this guy in high school to get the scoop on him. Will post if he ever replies.

That Guy
July 14th, 2009, 05:20 PM
The Wikipedia entry says that he did the second half on :58 base interval. That's really amazing, but... wasn't there a post that Phelps and Vendt did a set last year on :53 base interval? Maybe the Phelps/Vendt set was shorter?

Frank Thompson
July 14th, 2009, 09:14 PM
Every now and then a swimming publication will write about the hardest workers of all time in practice and often Kostoff ends up #1. I remember Swimming World once reporting a few of his remarkable sets. My memory is foggy but one was doing either 3 or 4 x 5000 yard swims on 50 minutes with the last one descended into the 46+ minute range. I think he *only* did three of them but maybe it was four. Another set was 10x400 IM on 4:20 (scy). While at Stanford his coach had him do 3x1650 on the NCAA cut. I think that was before "A" and "B" cuts so whatever the cut was that year in school, that was his interval. I also heard he did cross country (running) at Stanford and was amazingly fast in a 10k, so obviously he had the cardio thing going for him.

I think Phelps went around 4:18 when he was a junior in high school but turned Pro before his senior year so never was eligible to go for the record.

I'm sure Skip Thompson has far more details on some of Jeff's sets.

Jeff lives near me and was active in Masters swimming for a while. Here is a link to an interview with him by our LMSC newsletter editor many years ago:
http://artemis.crosslink.net/~cherylw/jeffintr.htm

Jeff:

Those were the sets that were published and I remember hearing he did 4 X 1650 Free on 16 minutes descending each 1650 faster than the previous. The goal was to keep each swim at 15 minutes or under.

Jeff Kostoff was probably the best distance swimmer in America from 1982 to about 1984 in short course yards. The time of 4:16.39 broke the American Record of Brian Goodell of 4:16.40 set in 1978 and shattered the National HS mark of Goodell of 4:20.81 set in 1978. About the closest anyone got to the record that I know of was Troy Dalbey in 1986 and he did a 4:17.30 but he did not swim that in a HS meet but won the 500 Free at 1986 Nationals with that time as a Sr in HS.

The only swimmer that I thought back then that could get the record was Dan Jorgenson because in his Jr. year he went 4:19.47 compared to 4:21.34 that Kostoff did during his Jr. year. But Jorgenson went slower than 4:20 in his senior year. Kostoff time today ranks 5th all time in the 500 Free in USA Swimming 15-17 rankings. Phelps did a 4:18.85 in his Sr. year of HS but was not rested or tapered and did not swim in HS and stayed in age group swimming. In 2004, as an 18 year old he went 4:12.33, so something tells me that he would have probably got that HS record if he would have tapered for it and swam it in a HS meet. Phelps went a 3:46.73 to set the AR in the 400 meter free in the summer of 2003, which would have been his SR year in HS and converted that beats a 4:16.39.

A more impressive swim was the 1650 Free by Kostoff set the same year at 14:46.11 and the next year he lowed that to 14:38.22 and that is still to this day the 15-17 USA Swimming National Record and the closest anyone has gotten to that record is 8 seconds and that was by Fran Crippen and that was back in 2003.

At the 1984 NCAA Championships Kostoff swam to a 14:38.11 American Record and in 1986 went 14:37.87 and that AR stood for 10 years until Chad Carvin broke it at the 1994 NCAA meet. Kostoff never won a 500 Free at the NCAA meet but won the 1650 Free in 1984, 1986, and 1987, but lost in 1985 to George Di Carlo and Mike O'Brien, who were the two swimmers who beat Kostoff for the two spots on the 1984 Olympic team. Kostoff was never as good in LCM in the distance free as he was in SCY. He set one AR in LCM in the 800 Free and that only lasted one year from 1983 to 1984.

He did however make the 1984 Olympic team by getting 1st in the 400 IM at the Olympic Trials and upsetting Jesse Vassalo, who was the AR holder at the time. He ended up getting 6th in the 400 IM and made the team in the 400 IM in 1988 but did not final at the Olympics.

If the Olympics would have been in 1983, there was a good chance he would make the team in 3 events (400 Free, 1500 Free, and 400 IM) but he did not swim as well in LCM in 1984 and especially in the distance events, which was surprising because he was so good at the NCAA Championships. I believe his best 1500 Free time was a 15:16.25 and at that time DiCarlo was going 15:01.51 and O'Brien was going 15:04.49 and some of the super swimmers from the 1970's like Goodell, Bobby Hackett, and Casey Converse all went faster.

But that year in 1983, was probably one of the best HS swims ever. Swimming World had it there #1 HS swim of all time in November 2005 in there greatest HS swims. I rank it right up there with John Kinsella's 400 Free HS swim back in 1970, where the record did not last as long but the swim was more dominate as an American Record against all competition.

Frank Thompson
July 14th, 2009, 09:39 PM
Paul and Ehoch:

I agree with all of your points and I will add some more points as to why this record will not be touched. A lot of distance swimmers do not want to swim HS but want to stay with there club coach and train all year around and not disrupt that. Plus some of the HS rules about swimming don't make any sense to me. I am not sure if its NICSA or the local HS federations, but they have these rules that you can't swim club and HS at the same time which is ok but then you can't swim HS and Club for certain time periods, even if that time period is not during the HS season but during the HS year.

Larsen Jensen quit HS swimming after his freshmen year because of these constraints. Plus a lot of distance events that swimmers train for are not offered in HS like the 200's of strokes, 400 IM, and 1000/1650 Free and if they are National caliber they don't want to swim in HS and just do the 500 Free and sprints.

Plus if you are a HS coach, you cannot coach your swimmers during the off season. I am not sure if this is a National rule but I know its applied in a lot of states. This seems like it would cause a lot of conflict between the HS and Clubs and the rules applied make it hard to do both. So a lot of swimmers don't swim HS like they did 30 to 40 years ago when they didn't have these rules.

When I was in HS some 39 years ago, the only rule I remember was that you could not compete in AAU once the HS season started and when the HS season was over, you would go back to the AAU and compete. The black out period was the first day of practice thru your last Championship meet. There was never any of these coaching rules like today and it was nobody's business what you did in the off season. I swam AAU with the same HS coach that was fine but today if you do that, you are in trouble and in violation of rules. Some real good swimmers just don't want to deal with that.

RuffWater
July 16th, 2009, 10:07 AM
There's been a lot of talk about the lack of emphasis on D swimming in HS and Jeff's record. What about explaining Misty's 1996 100 fly record.

Urban Myth or not? I swam against and (at times) with Jeff during our college years. No matter how you frame it, his animalism during workouts is all true. But is it myth or not that Jeff could barely do 10 pushups?

knelson
July 16th, 2009, 10:14 AM
What about explaining Misty's 1996 100 fly record.

Was there a 15 meter rule when she set it? If not, that would explain it to me.

Tim L
July 16th, 2009, 10:14 AM
But is it myth or not that Jeff could barely do 10 pushups?

I would guess a myth. It is just hard to believe he could do the workouts described and not be able to do 10 pushups.

Tim

lefty
July 16th, 2009, 11:41 AM
What about explaining Misty's 1996 100 fly record.

Kirk is 100% correct, misty had the advantage of swimming more than 15M underwater. And her underwaters were incredible.

DPC
July 16th, 2009, 12:22 PM
Was there a 15 meter rule when she set it? If not, that would explain it to me.

IIRC they made that rule due in part to her swim and the unreal ability in her uderwater kicks.

selkie
July 17th, 2009, 02:14 PM
I want to say that Misty also had the HS 100 yard backstroke record for a while as well, largely because of her amazing underwater skillz. It really is too bad she was never the same swimmer after her shoulder surgery post-Sydney.

knelson
July 17th, 2009, 05:44 PM
I should also point out that Misty Hyman was more than a one trick pony. Her defeat of O'Neill at Sydney in 2000 proved she was a pretty capable swimmer on the surface, too.

Jeff Commings
July 19th, 2009, 11:56 AM
We did an interview with Jeff Kostoff on the 25th anniversary of his record swim. Find it here. (http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/19539.asp)

He talks about his physical condition the day of the race and why no one has challenged the record.

lefty
July 20th, 2009, 11:58 AM
That's really amazing, but... wasn't there a post that Phelps and Vendt did a set last year on :53 base interval? Maybe the Phelps/Vendt set was shorter?

In order to do any set on a 53 base, you have to swim a 1650 in 14:34, ie if you hold 53.0's in the mile you will go a 14:34. So I think we can safely say that noone, not even Phelps, can do a set longer than, I don't know 800??? on a 53 base interval. I bet Phelps could do 4x200's on 1:45 if he got to leave from the block on the first one. But I doubt he could do even 5 of them.

The most ridiculous set I heard about was Vendt doing 6 400 IM's and he went 3:43 on the last one. There is a floswim video of Klueh doing 15 100's on 1:00 and holding 53's (going by memory here, was that the set?).