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View Full Version : Walls at Indy LC Nationals



MPohlmann
July 23rd, 2009, 09:49 AM
I don't believe that I have seen this mentioned, but several people have asked me this. Will the walls at Indy LC Nationals be FINA-style flat walls or regular gutter style?

Backstrokers are particularly anxious about this regarding the start, but other strokes are affected at the turns.

Mary

A Thompson
July 23rd, 2009, 12:04 PM
With previous events at IUPUI, I believe the have "flat walls" that comply with the FINA standards - like the ones what were installed at Stanford for the FINA Masters Worlds.

Maybe we can get the meet directors or Indy locals to confirm.

Yes, it does make a difference with backstroke starts, but also with breaststroke and butterfly turns.

See you in Indy,

Anthony Thompson, MOVY Masters

MPohlmann
July 23rd, 2009, 03:51 PM
I just received this reply from Mel Goldstein regarding my question of whether there would be FINA flat walls at USMS Nationals at IUPUI.

"You betcha!....We will follow all of the Rules unlike other facilities who host LC meets..

Mel"

Better practice those breast and fly turns with no grabbing the gutter and the backstroke starts without being able to grip the gutter.

Mary

jonblank
July 24th, 2009, 11:29 AM
While I used to despise flat wall turns, I have learned to accept them. A benefit for breast and fly turns is that one has less incentive to stay on the walls...

Chris Stevenson
July 29th, 2009, 09:11 AM
I have a question about backstroke starts that is relevant to the "flat walls," which I don't use often. The rule for backstroke starts is (USMS 101.1.2B):

"The swimmers shall line up in the water facing the starting end with both hands placed on the gutter or on the starting grips. Standing in or on the gutter, placing the toes above the lip of the gutter or bending the toes over the lip of the gutter before or after the start is prohibited."

Back in the "old days" when I was swimming, the foot had to be completely submerged. That no longer seems to be the case, correct? It sounds like, as long as the toes aren't curled over a gutter (non-existent with flat walls), you are okay.

I am trying to confirm this because just this summer at a masters meet, I heard a starter tell a swimmer that the foot had to be completely submerged.

aquaFeisty
July 29th, 2009, 10:31 AM
I don't know why it would make a difference to backstrokers whether or not the walls are flat. You can't curl your toes on a gutter anyhow.

As for the toes under the water, I *thought* that your toes could be either above or below the water as long as you were NOT curled over the gutter or lip. At one point in time perhaps you had to have your feet submerged completely but not anymore. Of course, I'm not a backstroker so maybe I'm totally wrong on this topic (but swimming *is* discussed in our house an awful lot...)

Re: breast and fly turns, well duh... don't swim more than a 50 and it's not a problem!!! :D

Chris Stevenson
July 29th, 2009, 11:04 AM
I don't know why it would make a difference to backstrokers whether or not the walls are flat. You can't curl your toes on a gutter anyhow.

Because with the flat walls -- ie, with no gutters -- you can have your feet higher on the wall. The placement of most gutters means that effectively your feet have to be submerged. So when they are gone, so is that restriction.

barryf
July 29th, 2009, 01:24 PM
The Host has elected not to use the Flat Wall finish and will attach the touch pads to the gutters instead at both ends of the pool.

MPohlmann
July 29th, 2009, 03:31 PM
Why the change in tune from "you betcha, we follow the rules" when asked if flat walls would be used?

First the starting time change. Now the wall change. What else is being waffled around?

Mary

Chris Stevenson
July 29th, 2009, 05:12 PM
First the starting time change. Now the wall change. What else is being waffled around?

The meet has been moved to Peoria.

aquaFeisty
July 29th, 2009, 05:35 PM
Because with the flat walls -- ie, with no gutters -- you can have your feet higher on the wall. The placement of most gutters means that effectively your feet have to be submerged. So when they are gone, so is that restriction.



Aha! Thank you, Chris. I didn't even think of that.

Oh, and Peoria works for me... shorter drive! :)

Kathy Casey
July 29th, 2009, 07:31 PM
The "high flat wall" rule is a FINA rule not a USMS rule. Having the touchpads attached to the gutters at long course meets is compliant with USMS rules.

The statement that the feet, including the toes, must be placed under the surface of the water was repealed by FINA, USA-S, and USMS. If a meet happens to have the high flat walls, it is easy to place the toes above the surface of the water for the start. However, if the gutter is accessible (no high flat wall as for FINA meets), the swimmer is not allowed to have the toes above the lip of the gutter and is not allowed to bend the toes over the lip of the gutter before or after the start (101.1.2B, pages 1-2 of the 2009 USMS Rule Book).

I highly encourage everyone to read the rule book. Needless to say, I find it fascinating reading. The USMS Rule Book can be downloaded from the USMS website.

Kathy Casey, Chair
USMS Rules Committee

Allen Stark
July 31st, 2009, 05:37 PM
The "high flat wall" rule is a FINA rule not a USMS rule. Having the touchpads attached to the gutters at long course meets is compliant with USMS rules.

The statement that the feet, including the toes, must be placed under the surface of the water was repealed by FINA, USA-S, and USMS. If a meet happens to have the high flat walls, it is easy to place the toes above the surface of the water for the start. However, if the gutter is accessible (no high flat wall as for FINA meets), the swimmer is not allowed to have the toes above the lip of the gutter and is not allowed to bend the toes over the lip of the gutter before or after the start (101.1.2B, pages 1-2 of the 2009 USMS Rule Book).

I highly encourage everyone to read the rule book. Needless to say, I find it fascinating reading. The USMS Rule Book can be downloaded from the USMS website.
.
Kathy Casey, Chair
USMS Rules Committee
If this is a FINA rule why don't we have to follow it to get WRs etc recognized?This question is also related to the "do we have to follow FINA swimsuit rules"question

Kathy Casey
August 1st, 2009, 12:22 AM
The high flat wall is not a requirement for FINA Masters World records.

Regarding the FINA swimsuit rules, the FINA Executive Director and one of the FINA Masters Technical Commission members said those were not meant for Masters. However, we are waiting to hear an official statement from the FINA Masters Technical Committee as a whole about how these swimwear rules impact Masters.