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View Full Version : TECHSUITS BANNED (again): AP article on FINA ruling



jonblank
July 24th, 2009, 11:01 AM
http://enews.earthlink.net/article/top?guid=20090724/4a693fd0_3ca6_1552620090724-558225451

Looks as if ALL "techsuits" are now illegal. Except for those wearing the suits at World Championships this year...

qbrain
July 24th, 2009, 11:14 AM
textile

Noun: any fabric or cloth used by Speedo, esp. a woven one
Adjective: of or relating to fabrics or their production: the world textile market [Latin textilis woven]

jonblank
July 24th, 2009, 11:20 AM
(from the AP article)

"Schubert also backs attaching an asterisk to records set over the last 18 months".

(from dictionary.com)
as'-ter-isk Origin: 1350–1400; ME < L asteriscus < Gk asterískos, dim. of astr star
–noun 1. a small starlike symbol (*), used in writing and printing as a reference mark or to indicate omission, doubtful matter, etc.
2. Linguistics. the figure of a star (*) used to mark utterance that would be considered ungrammatical or otherwise unacceptable by native speakers of a language, as in * I enjoy to swim.
3. any non-Speedo record

–verb (used with object) 5. to mark with an asterisk.

thewookiee
July 24th, 2009, 11:29 AM
3. any non-Speedo record

.



Now, that is funny. It is amazing that a bunch of closed minded, old farts want to keep things the way they use to be.

jonblank
July 24th, 2009, 11:35 AM
Now, that is funny. It is amazing that a bunch of closed minded, old farts want to keep things the way they use to be.

Even more amazing is that a bunch of old farts on this message board care enough to ridicule the other old farts.

aquageek
July 24th, 2009, 11:36 AM
Very disappointing, what a bunch of hooey.

thewookiee
July 24th, 2009, 11:40 AM
Even more amazing is that a bunch of old farts on this message board care enough to ridicule the other old farts.

But some of us aren't old.

jonblank
July 24th, 2009, 11:41 AM
But some of us aren't old.

Are you kidding? - NONE of US could EVER be old!!
We are simply more experienced.

thewookiee
July 24th, 2009, 11:45 AM
Are you kidding? - NONE of US could EVER be old!!
We are simply more experienced.

Good point

knelson
July 24th, 2009, 11:49 AM
"Schubert also backs attaching an asterisk to records set over the last 18 months"

Mark Schubert really ought to clam up. He looks more like a clown every time he opens his mouth lately.

And I don't think this mean all tech suits are illegal. The textile only stipulation would suggest to me they are rolling things back to the pre-LZR days.

thewookiee
July 24th, 2009, 12:03 PM
And I don't think this mean all tech suits are illegal. The textile only stipulation would suggest to me they are rolling things back to the pre-LZR days.



From reading some reports, they will limit coverage to around 1996 standards for men and women.

Muppet
July 24th, 2009, 12:13 PM
I'm all for the "textile" only rule.

But I've said before and I'll say again, I think it is gender discrimination to limit coverage. A woman can gain advantages by a suit covering her torso, and so should a man. Either that, or women gotta start showing off the goods while wearing briefs/jammers only.

SwimsWithAFist
July 24th, 2009, 12:21 PM
I'm all for the "textile" only rule.

But I've said before and I'll say again, I think it is gender discrimination to limit coverage. A woman can gain advantages by a suit covering her torso, and so should a man. Either that, or women gotta start showing off the goods while wearing briefs/jammers only.

I'm with you on that one, Muppet. That's been my take all along - have one standard for both genders.

The Fortress
July 24th, 2009, 12:22 PM
I'm totally against the rule.

But it doesn't apply to us old farts anyway unless and until USMS says it does.

The article was vague and poorly written. Schubert should just clam up. And it doesn't even put specific dates in. It's all very fuzzy.

thewookiee
July 24th, 2009, 12:23 PM
I'm all for the "textile" only rule.

But I've said before and I'll say again, I think it is gender discrimination to limit coverage. A woman can gain advantages by a suit covering her torso, and so should a man. Either that, or women gotta start showing off the goods while wearing briefs/jammers only.


I could agree with "textile" only as long as men can have suits that cover torso as well.

aquageek
July 24th, 2009, 12:38 PM
I guess we will have to argue about which pull bouy is better now - all foam versus foam with straps. The suits are/were the one cool gear thing about swimming. This puts me in a bad mood, I think I'll take it out on the Furburglar.

chaos
July 24th, 2009, 12:39 PM
less is betterer.

thewookiee
July 24th, 2009, 12:51 PM
less is betterer.

is some cases yes...but i like more coverage.

time to go rip geeks arms out of his sockets and beat him with them

aquageek
July 24th, 2009, 12:53 PM
time to go rip geeks arms out of his sockets and beat him with them

I doubt you could hoist these cannons on your own.

chaos - keep your opinions to yourself, for the love of Dolphin 2!!

Muppet
July 24th, 2009, 12:55 PM
time to go rip geeks arms out of his sockets and beat him with them

Sounds like Chewbacca vs. a Storm Trooper in Lego Star Wars (screenshot (http://gamespotting.net/wp-content/uploads/rippinarms.jpg))

thewookiee
July 24th, 2009, 12:57 PM
I doubt you could hoist these cannons on your own.

chaos - keep your opinions to yourself, for the love of Dolphin 2!!

the only thing that you have that is the size of a cannon is your head. it resembles a cannon ball.

if you are referring to your arms, they look more like match sticks.

chaos
July 24th, 2009, 01:00 PM
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3488/3272800478_63cd7730cd.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.flickr.com/photos/ozfan22/3272800478/&usg=__A1rjt_oDMIyYAO84D9C55FlCKnE=&h=413&w=500&sz=107&hl=en&start=14&um=1&tbnid=uDcZEffftK3jVM:&tbnh=107&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3D1920%2527s%2Bbeach%2Bwear%26hl%3Den%2 6client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1

1920's at the beach, or 2009 USMS SCY nats?

thewookiee
July 24th, 2009, 01:02 PM
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3488/3272800478_63cd7730cd.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.flickr.com/photos/ozfan22/3272800478/&usg=__A1rjt_oDMIyYAO84D9C55FlCKnE=&h=413&w=500&sz=107&hl=en&start=14&um=1&tbnid=uDcZEffftK3jVM:&tbnh=107&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3D1920%2527s%2Bbeach%2Bwear%26hl%3Den%2 6client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1

1920's at the beach, or 2009 USMS SCY nats?


There is nothing wrong with more coverage

mctrusty
July 24th, 2009, 01:05 PM
I guess we will have to argue about which pull bouy is better now - all foam versus foam with straps. The suits are/were the one cool gear thing about swimming.

Agreed. Now people can stop paying attention again and swimming's popularity can decline. At the very least, I think the coverage limitation to 1996 cut is a bit of an overreaction.

I'm happy enough to swim in briefs, which has been my usual competition gear for all but about 10% of my swims. But I think that the tech suits added some excitement and got more people talking about swimming. I personally liked seeing that.

I like the strapless pull buoy for doing balance drills (hold it in my hand extended), but I like the strap buoy for the intended use of keeping my legs up.

aquageek
July 24th, 2009, 01:05 PM
1920's at the beach, or 2009 USMS SCY nats?

That's a definite possibility. Here's Wookie as well:

qbrain
July 24th, 2009, 01:14 PM
Also in the news, Wicked Weasel, the famous Australian swim suit maker, has replaced Speedo as an Olympic sponsor for 2012.

ehoch
July 24th, 2009, 01:23 PM
Gonna go to Regionals now -- put on my banned suits and have one last run at some Long-course times :applaud:

One question though - if there will be a limit on the amount of textile to be used -- is there also a rule on the minimum amount :D

knelson
July 24th, 2009, 01:39 PM
Wookiee has been spending the day trying to find out if it's possible to encase body hair in neoprene.

ande
July 24th, 2009, 02:08 PM
Swimsuit makers frustrated on eve of worlds (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?section=swimming&id=4348635)

To be considered at the
FINA Technical Swimming Congress
23 July 2009 / 09:30 hours Rome, Italy (http://www.uana-aquatics.org/html/English/3-TC-PART5-SW-version22April2009.pdf)
check out proposals for 10.7 around page 6

ehoch
July 24th, 2009, 02:18 PM
Bjorn Borg wants to bring back wood rackets to make another run at Wimbledon ....

Midas
July 24th, 2009, 02:19 PM
I guess this means going back to shaving down for big meets/races. Oh well!

Jeff Commings
July 24th, 2009, 02:32 PM
All tech suits will still be legal through 2009. All indications are that the new rule goes into effect January 1.

quicksilver
July 24th, 2009, 02:52 PM
textile

Noun: any fabric or cloth used by Speedo, esp. a woven one
Adjective: of or relating to fabrics or their production: the world textile market [Latin textilis woven]

That seems to be the interpretation. Any suit that's not polyurethane.

This reporter did a nice job explaining all the latest suits. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/other_sports/swimming/8161867.stm

Tim L
July 24th, 2009, 03:06 PM
I can't say I will miss the tech suits personally, but I am very surprised that FINA went that far. I wonder whether it will have a big impact on the popularity of swimming or not. I think a lot of the increased popularity is attributable to one person and the media attention that surrounds him. I guess we will have to see.

In regard to the tech suit records and how long it will take for them to be broken, maybe we underestimate the importance of the person doing the swimming. All it would take is a few genetic freaks like Phelps and half the world records could be taken down by a couple swimmers. Phelps set most of his current world records in just leggings and so did Peirsol. Some of the records might be there for a long time, but my guess is that many will be broken before or during the London Olympics. What will be very interesting is to see is which athletes are able to perform at or near their tech suit best times and which won't be able to close. Maybe we should just put an asterisk on the records by swimmers that can't get close to their tech suit bests. I think we were able to overcome the steroid records fairly quickly and my bet is that swimmers will be able to surpass many of the tech suit records as well within 5 years.

I wish I could recommend a therapist or rehab center for those of you addicted to tech suits, but I am afraid it sounds like you are going to have to go cold turkey and see how it goes. I loved the post that maybe USMS won't go along with the change, but who is going to manufacture the suits only for USMS even if USMS were silly enough not to follow the FINA rules? You might want to buy up a big personal inventory of tech suits before they stop manufacturing them just in case USMS doesn't go along with FINA so you can keep your competitive edge as long as possible or maybe we could have an open division at Nationals just for fun.

I will greatly miss the discussion topic though. RIP

Tim

selkie
July 24th, 2009, 03:24 PM
I loved the post that maybe USMS won't go along with the change, but who is going to manufacture the suits only for USMS even if USMS were silly enough not to follow the FINA rules?

If swimming goes the way of cycling, then the FINA standard become the defacto manufacturer's specs just like bike makers almost always follow UCI standards. So it'll be about as easy to find 2009 suit technology as it will be to find a manufacturer still making beam bikes. (ie. probably not totally impossible but very, very difficult)

The wildcard is whether National Federation (ie. high schools) syncs their swimwear to the new FINA rules. Right now, they aren't and the high school crowd can make it worth it for 2-3 suitmakers to keep manufacturing 2009 tech for that part of the US market.

knelson
July 24th, 2009, 03:25 PM
I will greatly miss the discussion topic though. RIP

I seriously doubt the last chapter has been written in this story.

aquageek
July 24th, 2009, 03:26 PM
...but I am afraid it sounds like you are going to have to go cold turkey and see how it goes.

I am deeply worried for my teammate and good friend tdrop. This could quite possibly be the worst news he has ever had.

Paul Smith
July 24th, 2009, 03:40 PM
It will be interesting to see what happens in te International (and Masters) realm with regard to world record progression(s)...how many years will we go before we see some of these records go down? What if any impact from a marketing standpoint will slower times/fewer records have on the growth of swimming?

I'm also curious about how some swimmers (especially masters) will handle swimming times slower than they have the last few years....

orca1946
July 24th, 2009, 03:51 PM
What do I do with the speedo full suit I have now ??

psyncw
July 24th, 2009, 03:54 PM
I think the most recent decision makes sense- I think it puts the focus back on the swimmer and not so much on what suit they are wearing. And limiting the men to jammers or briefs should definitely lower the prices of the suits quite a bit! I was most comfortable wearing FS II jammers.

Tim L
July 24th, 2009, 03:59 PM
I seriously doubt the last chapter has been written in this story.

You are probably correct.

I can see a lawsuit by Arena, B70, and Jaked against FINA/Speedo given that they all seem to have gained market share and then lost it overnight due to a very dark force.

Also, if the records don't end up getting challenged anytime soon I wouldn't be surprised to see FINA change the rules right before the London Olympics to re-allow tech suits because a lack of world records is bad TV.

There are probably endless possibilities to keep this discussion topic alive!

Tim

orca1946
July 24th, 2009, 04:02 PM
News flash -----I have a world record tech suit for sale cheap !!! $ 100 OBO

knelson
July 24th, 2009, 04:14 PM
I have a feeling meets for the remainder of this year are going to have lots more splashes than usual. Everyone will be clamoring to get just a few more swims out of their soon-to-be-banned suits.

Tim L
July 24th, 2009, 04:17 PM
It will be interesting to see what happens in te International (and Masters) realm with regard to world record progression(s)...how many years will we go before we see some of these records go down? What if any impact from a marketing standpoint will slower times/fewer records have on the growth of swimming?

I'm also curious about how some swimmers (especially masters) will handle swimming times slower than they have the last few years....

I agree. Maybe the new hot discussion topics will revolve around how to lose weight and obtain the compression and streamline that we had with the tech suits.

The times might be somewhat slower, but the pecking order will remain largely unchanged. I think the masters records will probably fall pretty quickly since many of the masters records are broken as swimmers age up and replace the previous slower generations.

Maybe to keep the tech suit discussion going we should make a game of guessing who adds the most time from their previous masters best. Any guesses/bets on which masters swimmers will add the most time to their best masters times? Lets see, who has really crammed themselves into a tech suit the best in the past? On second thought, that game probably isn't going to help someone in rehab due to tech suit withdrawals.

Tim

The Fortress
July 24th, 2009, 04:18 PM
I can't say I will miss the tech suits personally, but I am very surprised that FINA went that far. I wonder whether it will have a big impact on the popularity of swimming or not. I think a lot of the increased popularity is attributable to one person and the media attention that surrounds him. I guess we will have to see.

In regard to the tech suit records and how long it will take for them to be broken, maybe we underestimate the importance of the person doing the swimming. All it would take is a few genetic freaks like Phelps and half the world records could be taken down by a couple swimmers. Phelps set most of his current world records in just leggings and so did Peirsol. Some of the records might be there for a long time, but my guess is that many will be broken before or during the London Olympics. What will be very interesting is to see is which athletes are able to perform at or near their tech suit best times and which won't be able to close. Maybe we should just put an asterisk
on the records by swimmers that can't get close to their tech suit bests. I think we were able to overcome the steroid records fairly quickly and my bet is that swimmers will be able to surpass many of the tech suit records as well within 5 years.

I wish I could recommend a therapist or rehab center for those of you addicted to tech suits, but I am afraid it sounds like you are going to have to go cold turkey and see how it goes. I loved the post that maybe USMS won't go along with the change, but who is going to manufacture the suits only for USMS
even if USMS were silly enough not to follow the FINA rules? You might want to buy up a big personal inventory of tech suits before they stop manufacturing them just in case USMS doesn't go along with FINA so you can keep your competitive edge as long as possible or maybe we could have an open division
at Nationals just for fun.

I will greatly miss the discussion topic though. RIP


Tim

Uh, that wasn't exactly what I said. However, as Michael Heather recently reminded us, USMS makes its own rules.

As for this competitive edge you speak of, since all my competitors wear tech suits, I don't feel I've had any. Indeed, training solo makes me feel at a disadvantage.

As for folks needing a therapist, I think you really overstate the situation. If people don't expect to go somewhat slower and adjust expectations, they need more IQ points, not a therapist.

I think Geek said it best -- this would eliminate the cool gear element of the sport. If expense is a concern, regulate coverage and material at the age group level. I don't see the need for a total ban.

orca1946
July 24th, 2009, 04:26 PM
Thanks FINA, will you rebate some of the $$$ I just spent on a full arm/leg tech suit ??:badday:

aquageek
July 24th, 2009, 04:27 PM
This decision effectively frees up around $500-$700 for me for next year given I am going to Atlanta and am unable to control my urges to buy my kid a tech suit once she turns 11. So, now I can spend that money on bike gear, a sport not afraid of change and technology. I might even buy a few rounds in Atlanta for Fort and Wookie.

BillS
July 24th, 2009, 04:28 PM
I suppose that USMS will likely go along with the FINA rule so that our world record swims will be recognized. But there really aren't any world records in SCY anyway. So what if USMS opted out for SCY events only, making them a run what ya brung anything goes affair? What fun it would be to be able to blow the dust off the old B70s, Jakeds, or even just an old FSPro full suit for SCY season each year, and it would finally be a reasonably objective way of measuring the advantage provided by the suits.

thewookiee
July 24th, 2009, 04:30 PM
I think Geek said it best -- this would eliminate the cool gear element of the sport. If expense is a concern, regulate coverage and material at the age group level. I don't see the need for a total ban.

Dang but I gotta side with Geek on this comment. And agree with Fort on hers.

knelson
July 24th, 2009, 04:33 PM
Thanks FINA, will you rebate some of the $$$ I just spent on a full arm/leg tech suit ??:badday:

I'm pretty sure suits with full arms were already banned so you wouldn't have been able to legally use that suit anyway.

This ruling does give us all a good goal for next year: equal or better our suit-aided times.

edit: yeah, just looked at the text of FINA's Dubai Charter and it explicitly banned full-arm suits: http://www.fina.org/project/images/help/the%20dubai%20charter.pdf

See 1a.

Tim L
July 24th, 2009, 04:48 PM
Uh, that wasn't exactly what I said. However, as Michael Heather recently reminded us, USMS makes its own rules.

I think Geek said it best -- this would eliminate the cool gear element of the sport. If expense is a concern, regulate coverage and material at the age group level. I don't see the need for a total ban.

USMS does make it's own rules, but surely if USMS is the only hold-out then there will be very limited quantities available and then it does become a fairness issue for USMS.

I am just joking about therapy and competitive edge. Can't someone have some fun poking at you tech suit addicts? I am sure everyone will handle slower times well.

I see Geek's point somewhat, but I have really never considered tech suits a "cool gear element". I cycle a bit and cycling has a lot cooler stuff and it is by definition a sport that is defined by technology. It is also a sport that isn't defined by world records. I don't get the analogy.

Tim

aquageek
July 24th, 2009, 04:56 PM
Look at the way swimmers have embraced the technology of suits in a big hurry, no different than cycling. But, now we don't have that one cool gear element anymore. We can go back to arguing over latex versus silicone caps I guess.

ALM
July 24th, 2009, 05:02 PM
We can go back to arguing over latex versus silicone caps I guess.

Umm, you apparently do not have the cool gear cap - the Speedo "Aqua V" cap. Dara and Phelps were both wearing it at Nationals.

Midas
July 24th, 2009, 05:03 PM
I think the tech suits are cool and I liked wearing one. Heck, even the name "tech suit" is cool. Just about anything is cooler than the briefs we used to wear, of course. I'm sorry to see them go. I do like the concept of the "purity" of racing without them, and it does level the playing field to some extent. But still, anything that makes swimming more "cool" is probably not a terrible thing for the sport. My guess is that they will be back in a couple of years...

Muppet
July 24th, 2009, 05:06 PM
I'm also curious about how some swimmers (especially masters) will handle swimming times slower than they have the last few years....

I am sure you will be able to find your answer here (http://forums.usms.org/blog.php)

The Fortress
July 24th, 2009, 06:30 PM
USMS does make it's own rules, but surely if USMS is the only hold-out then there will be very limited quantities available and then it does become a fairness issue for USMS.

I am just joking about therapy and competitive edge. Can't someone have some fun poking at you tech suit addicts? I am sure everyone will handle slower times well.

I see Geek's point somewhat, but I have really never considered tech suits a "cool gear element". I cycle a bit and cycling has a lot cooler stuff and it is by definition a sport that is defined by technology. It is also a sport that isn't defined by world records. I don't get the analogy.

Tim

Well, FINA has stated that its suit rules don't apply to masters. So there could be a worldwide community of unregulated masters swimmers ...

I knew you were joking about therapists; just like I was joking about IQ points. Everyone knows the score. I've said it before -- I'm perfectly happy to swim in a Pro. In fact, I have this year. I do resent the coverage issue and prefer full leg suits.

pwb
July 24th, 2009, 06:31 PM
I'm also curious about how some swimmers (especially masters) will handle swimming times slower than they have the last few years....

Paul, are you already starting to create excuses for 2010?

I don't know about the rest of you, but I fully intend of swimming faster in 2010 regardless of what suit I'm wearing. I'm going to try this innovative method call training harder & smarter plus supplement that with a better diet.

KEWebb18
July 24th, 2009, 07:02 PM
Paul, are you already starting to create excuses for 2010?

I don't know about the rest of you, but I fully intend of swimming faster in 2010 regardless of what suit I'm wearing. I'm going to try this innovative method call training harder & smarter plus supplement that with a better diet.

I intend to do the same!

Karlene
July 24th, 2009, 07:41 PM
Every time I think that FINA can't make a more stupid decision, they prove me wrong. Not only are we going back pre-LZR, set your time machine to pre-1994. I know that my mixed relay male teammates in '94 wore the Speedo S-2000 that covered their torsos. I really don't care what racing suit I wear as long as it's similar to my competition's. But you just have to shake your head in wonder at FINA's ineptitude.

Michael Heather
July 24th, 2009, 08:43 PM
FINA has a mandate to keep the playing field as level as possible. The tech suits threw things out of whack, and they (FINA) are not well suited (pun not intended) to react with thoughtful, evenhanded reflection. It is, after all, mostly a political organization that retains its power by exercising it. So here they are, exercising to the past, which is what they know. It is a mulligan of an immense and ridiculous proportion.

Thank goodness they are not concerned with Masters, we can keep wearing tech suits as long as they are available, I guess.

psyncw
July 24th, 2009, 08:57 PM
It was the US that proposed the rule change, and it seemed that most of the international swimming community was in agreement with getting a handle on the tech suits issue. I would be VERY surprised if USMS did not follow suit.

ande
July 24th, 2009, 09:10 PM
not surprising, swim suits are for decency. FINA finally took the correct stance on their own rule, they aren't allowing suits to have much more fabric beyond what's necessary for decency. The extra unnecessary fabric is "device that helps our speed, pace or buoyancy during races"

The proper thing to do is to "reset" swimming world records back a few years, it's not really fair for men in jammers & women in knee skins to try to break records swimmers did in full body tech suits. Let's go back to WR times done by swimmers who wore qualifying suits, like Popov's 21.6 50 WR then let the breaking begin.

But the real question for us is
What is FINA & USMS going to do with suit rules for masters?
why not let masters use up the excess inventory of fullbody suits?

chaos
July 24th, 2009, 09:33 PM
But the real question for us is
What is FINA & USMS going to do with suit rules for masters?
why not let masters use up the excess inventory of fullbody suits?

i think this would set a bad precedence.

Paul Smith
July 24th, 2009, 09:41 PM
Paul, are you already starting to create excuses for 2010?

I don't know about the rest of you, but I fully intend of swimming faster in 2010 regardless of what suit I'm wearing. I'm going to try this innovative method call training harder & smarter plus supplement that with a better diet.

I've always been one to do just that Patrick...

I also have never been caught up on times...I like to race and always prefer open seeding so I can swim against the fastest swimmers including youngsters like you...with or without a tech suit.

Last but not least my single biggest gripe is how short sided and poorly handled this entire situation with suit inovation has been. I will go with whatever is decided to be legal but will also recognize the impact that wearing such a suit has on how fast my times are...and to tell you the truth I've been so fed up with all this crap that I've shifted my attention to open water. Only to find that when I enter a non-wetsuit division people can wear a B70...whatever.

VC22
July 24th, 2009, 09:59 PM
Well, FINA has stated that its suit rules don't apply to masters. So there could be a worldwide community of unregulated masters swimmers ...

Hello,

I'm a master swimmer form Europe, can you tell where did you get the info that FINA rules (this one?) don't apply to masters. I must say this surprises me, but so does going back to the previous century rules (1994-96?!).

For me and my fellow swimmers bodysuits/legskins are a good thing

we don't have to shave to race in the same (body hair) conditions, we just wear a suit, and in this respect (and others) the cheaper ones do as well
We get significant thermal protection when in open water events (water can be cold around here)
I guess all sort of pro/con arguments can be made but however much i love the ocean i don't like freezing in it's cold water, and the extended coverage does help a lot (as we are also generating body heat from the swimming).

So even if there's a rule on tissue i would prefer the current allowable body coverage to be maintained (shoulder to ankle). But is it a sure thing that it won't ??!!

I'll sure keep my legskins for the ocasional ocean training

As a disclaimer I must say I own a swim shop. From this it is my experience that swimmers with strong legs (mostly master swimmers) have a problem with jammer as they get to tight from the elastic just above the knee, this problem does not happen with legskins (no problem at the ankle). Legskins are also great in Open Water (they still protect a lot from the cold but you fell completely free, whereas in long events bodysuit friction can make you hurt)

Regards

VC22

The Fortress
July 24th, 2009, 10:24 PM
Hello,

I'm a master swimmer form Europe, can you tell where did you get the info that FINA rules (this one?) don't apply to masters. I must say this surprises me, but so does going back to the previous century rules (1994-96?!).

As a disclaimer I must say I own a swim shop. From this it is my experience that swimmers with strong legs (mostly master swimmers) have a problem with jammer as they get to tight from the elastic just above the knee, this problem does not happen with legskins (no problem at the ankle).
Regards

VC22

Absolutely agree on the latter point. This is one reason I detest knee skins.

I believe it was the Press Secretary of FINA that made the statement that FINA standards do not apply to masters. According to FINA, they had no intention of regulating suits for masters as we are of such lesser importance. (See Craig Lord on swimnews.com) And, indeed, during the two month or so FINA/USA ban on tech suits based on the first list, masters continued to wear their LZRs and B70s in masters meets and their ensuing WRs continued to be accepted by FINA.

cyclist
July 25th, 2009, 12:42 AM
Great News! So long stupid suits.

aztimm
July 25th, 2009, 01:01 AM
But I've said before and I'll say again, I think it is gender discrimination to limit coverage. A woman can gain advantages by a suit covering her torso, and so should a man. Either that, or women gotta start showing off the goods while wearing briefs/jammers only.

I'm sorry but in what swimming events do women compete against men?

aztimm
July 25th, 2009, 01:04 AM
I hadn't browsed the forums, and really hadn't looked at the news during the day today. So I was extremely happy to hear this story as I left work this afternoon:

NPR_swimsuit_story (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106989036)

swimike
July 25th, 2009, 01:04 AM
Once the rule hits, we'll see who can REALLY swim.

Muppet
July 25th, 2009, 01:52 AM
I'm sorry but in what swimming events do women compete against men?

On a non-serious note, at meets where women swim before men, I look for the fastest girl swimmers and try to beat their times for my race. For some of us, this a pretty tough challenge.

But to answer your question, I'm looking for an equal opportunity, and it has everything to do with compression.

What I am saying here is that I think it is unfair to limit which of these compression-benefit areas based on your gender. In just a regular tank, women get buttocks, hips, stomach and chest compression. In a knee-skin, they get everything! If men get jammers, it's just thighs and buttocks; but going all the way to briefs, it's just buttocks. And on top if this, if women are stuck with only a tank and men get jammers, why do men get to benefit from the thigh compression and not women? See where I am going?

Recent swimsuit fabric technological advances have been coupled with suits designed and cut for muscle compression. The thigh, buttocks, hips, stomach and chest carry a lot of flab (especially with masters swimmers) - but also a lot of muscle, and compression of these areas by these suits have led to plenty of benefits for many who can better harness the energy created. Since we can't do much with the fabrics anymore, compression will be the name of the game in design.

The next time you (everyone) get a chance, find a strong and muscular swimmer on your team to watch underwater. When they push off the wall, or do underwater SDK, you'll see some massive muscle movements in the thighs. This is what I'm talking about here - everyone wants those things compressed to better harness energy. For an elite athlete view, check out Margaret Hoelzer (http://www.goswim.tv/entries/5605/go-swim-backstroke-with-margaret-hoelzer.html) (best views at about 1:35). There are also some views of her doing SDK w/ a full LZR on for a contrast point, and it's hard to see, but those legs are not moving in that suit the way they are in the tank.

knelson
July 25th, 2009, 02:05 AM
The proper thing to do is to "reset" swimming world records back a few years, it's not really fair for men in jammers & women in knee skins to try to break records swimmers did in full body tech suits. Let's go back to WR times done by swimmers who wore qualifying suits, like Popov's 21.6 50 WR then let the breaking begin.

I really disagree with this. The world records were set in compliance with the rules at the time. It would be totally unfair to the athletes who set records in tech suits to just roll things back. You can't just wipe out a few years of swimming history like that.

Muppet
July 25th, 2009, 02:15 AM
Perhaps I missed it in another thread somewhere, but Brent Rutemiller has a great editorial in July's Swimming World Magazine about what to do with this whole tech suit issue: create a professional swim league.

link (https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/21545.asp)

Couroboros
July 25th, 2009, 10:47 AM
Am I the only one who doesn't really mind this rule? I kind of like it. Thankfully for me, I won't have to know what I'm missing with the advantage offered by the suits anyway.

tjrpatt
July 25th, 2009, 10:54 AM
I was waiting until or if I got close to lifetime bests to get current tech suit. Also, if I am close, would I have the funds available to buy a tech suit. But, I really don't mind this rule. So, you can't wear leggings after 2010 or something. They had this Fina rule in the Middle Atlantic after the first ban list but people still wore leggings at meets.

tdrop
July 25th, 2009, 11:28 AM
Once the rule hits, we'll see who can REALLY swim.
It will be all the same players. The times will just be slower.

thewookiee
July 25th, 2009, 11:31 AM
not surprising, swim suits are for decency. FINA finally took the correct stance on their own rule, they aren't allowing suits to have much more fabric beyond what's necessary for decency.

And exactly who and how does one define what is and isn't decent?


Future Is Not Allowed

thewookiee
July 25th, 2009, 11:32 AM
Once the rule hits, we'll see who can REALLY swim.



Looks like people have been REALLY swimming regardless of tech suits or not....after all the sport is called swimming

tdrop
July 25th, 2009, 11:35 AM
Am I the only one who doesn't really mind this rule? I kind of like it.

I don't mind. Simple is cool. It was fun swimming fast times in season though.

geochuck
July 25th, 2009, 11:49 AM
Wait and see is the way to go. I will wait to see what is going to happen.

If Fina listens to the USA proposal every record set will have *** beside it.

Even Johhny Weismullers. He wore a suit that went from his shoulders and covered his torso.

GGS5T
July 25th, 2009, 11:49 AM
Rule SW10.7 now reads: No swimmer shall be permitted to use or wear any device or swimsuit that may aid his/her speed, buoyancy or endurance during a competition (such as webbed gloves, flippers, fins, etc.). Goggles may be worn. Any kind of tape on the body is not permitted.

Some purists in Europe are now urging FINA to ban goggles. I must admit, they are an aid to swimming faster. I'd certainly swim slower without goggles.

geochuck
July 25th, 2009, 12:16 PM
If they ban all tech suits, many of you have spent big bucks on fantastic traing suits. With their bouyancy, compretion and ability to make you swim better. Your investment will really enhance your ability to swim fast.

When you now slip into your just plain old swim suit you will be much faster in an untech suit then you were in the past.

mctrusty
July 25th, 2009, 12:41 PM
Rule SW10.7 now reads: No swimmer shall be permitted to use or wear any device or swimsuit that may aid his/her speed, buoyancy or endurance during a competition (such as webbed gloves, flippers, fins, etc.). Goggles may be worn. Any kind of tape on the body is not permitted.

Some purists in Europe are now urging FINA to ban goggles. I must admit, they are an aid to swimming faster. I'd certainly swim slower without goggles.

Lol. That would be terrible for people with contacts/poor vision. I'd probably have to quit swimming if that happened because I can't see worth a damn without my vision correction.

Chris Stevenson
July 25th, 2009, 12:54 PM
Am I the only one who doesn't really mind this rule? I kind of like it.

I like the idea behind the rule. Whether I like the rule or not depends on how they define "textiles."

I think the impact of the definition on men will be v small (not much material in the suit) but the impact on women may be significant. Plus enforcement could be a real issue.

Ideally I would like a rule that could be enforced at a glance (Not shiny? Permeable? You're good to go.) rather than having lists of approved and non-approved suits. But I don't think that will happen; they'll need to test for buoyance at the least, I would bet.

The Fortress
July 25th, 2009, 01:03 PM
Looks like people have been REALLY swimming regardless of tech suits or not....after all the sport is called swimming

You mean we won't have to go back to dog paddling, like swimike thinks?

knelson
July 25th, 2009, 01:50 PM
I'd rather swim nude than without goggles.

rodent
July 25th, 2009, 01:52 PM
After the last 6 months of soap opra, nothing that FINA does surprises me. They should never make a decision of that magnitude without the input of a large percentage of swimmers and their representatives. The decision was probably made be 15 people tops, many of whom have vested interests in the outcome. If I recall, last year at this time the same people were telling us that the LZR was the greatest thing since sliced bread.
I think they could have easily gone back to the pre LZR standard of 2006. No one complained about the Fastskin, Powerskin and Aquapel.
I am wondering if they even considered other options or notified the suit companies of thier intent to make a binding decision prior to 2010. I always assumed that they would solicit input and make a decision on a date certain, in the fall.
I wonder if it was done quickly and quietly, without public notice, to purposely catch the affected swim suit companies by surprise.
FINA and USA Swimming are a trainwreck. Colleges are shuting programs down and swimming is irrelevant to the average American except for a week every four years. We need better leadership.
This decision should be reconsidered by an entirely new, unbiased, panel prior to 2010. :censor:

stillwater
July 25th, 2009, 02:05 PM
I'd rather swim nude than without goggles.

I would rather you didn't.

tjrpatt
July 25th, 2009, 02:08 PM
I'd rather swim nude than without goggles.

I can't even function without goggles in the pool. People who I train with were telling me about the days before they had goggles and I am like, "What, how did you survive?"

Peter Cruise
July 25th, 2009, 02:15 PM
We didn't survive that well without goggles; quite aside from the green halo to your vision after practise and red, running eyes, it was much more common to misjudge your walls- jammed fingers, sprained wrists and the dreaded full face plant were common.

psyncw
July 25th, 2009, 04:37 PM
Another good article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/25/sports/25swim.html?_r=2&hp

Thrashing Slug
July 25th, 2009, 05:20 PM
I'm glad they did this. Now it will mean more when a world record is broken. I wonder how long it will take for someone to break one of the tech suit records wearing a non-tech suit.

selkie
July 25th, 2009, 06:11 PM
The quote they got from Franzi in the NYT article did give me a chuckle.

gshaw
July 25th, 2009, 11:05 PM
I don't know what has been motivating FINA to make so many changes recently--this is the third significant rule change in just a few months. Something doesn't "feel" right about what's going on. Quite a few folks are opposed to the tech suits. I love them. I enjoy looking at them, seeing the different kinds, wondering what their strengths are etc. Some of them are just cool to look at. And not a few Masters swimmers definitely look better in them (than out of them). I like the feel they give in the water. Do they help us swim faster. Yes. Definitely. Is that bad? Not in my opinion.

Should we make pole vaulters give up fiber glass because it improved their vaults over the old metal pole? Tennis go back to wooden rackets? Track and field athletes go back to cinder? Golfers back to steel shafts and wooden woods? I suppose some would prefer that, not me.

I agree with Rowdy Gaines that the tech suits have made swimming more fun to watch and talk about. Was some company NOT making enough money the way things are now? Will some do better without tech suits? You have to wonder. FINA has been all over the place. Is money involved? I am hoping they get over this most recent move and just let it roll with tech suits.

nhc
July 25th, 2009, 11:24 PM
I think FINA did a good thing. Swimming competitions should be the competitions among swimmers, not the swimsuit designers. (The tech-suit makers are probably the unhappiest now, more than the swimmers.)

(However, when Michael Phelps said (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/25/sports/25swim.html?em), “I like it ... I think it’s going to be good", that's probably because it will make it harder for anyone without a tech-suit to break his records set with tech-suit :cool:).

gull
July 25th, 2009, 11:42 PM
With swimmers restricted to wearing only one technical suit of specified thickness, the rate of design innovation and corresponding world record progression would eventually slow and reach a plateau.

Syd
July 26th, 2009, 12:44 AM
Schubert thinks that the tech suit era records should be stricken:


Should 2008-9 be remembered as swimming’s asterisk era? “The rules that were in there at that moment, we accept it,” said Uruguay’s Julio Maglione, who was elected president of FINA at Friday’s congress. “No change.”

Mark Schubert, the general manager of the United States national team, disagreed. Earlier this month he said the records should be stricken because they were artificially aided. “I just don’t think we’ve been good stewards of the sport to allow what’s happened,” he said. Does that mean we would go back to pre-2000 records. How likely is this to happen and is it even possible?

Michael Heather
July 26th, 2009, 01:12 AM
That would just be silly. The records will all be broken sooner or later, let them stand as is. FINA is in a mess already, no need to point out their already immense flaws with asterisks. That just demeans the swimmers and all the hard work they have done.

Muppet
July 26th, 2009, 09:54 AM
The records were (and will be) achieved by swimmers competing in suits that were (and will be), at the time of their swim, perfectly legal to have been worn.

No asteriskes.

selkie
July 26th, 2009, 10:04 AM
There is a wee bit of precedent in track and field- they altered the technical specs for men's javelin in the 1980s and women's javelin in the 1990s, in order to make it easier for the point to stick and for the judges to give a correct distance, and the result was an immediate 10%ish in distance thrown. The IAAF and national federations have kept separate lists of records and important throws under both the old and new javelins.

But in general, I'd say to keep the current records swum in plastic. The swimmers were following the rulebook as it was written at the time, and there may have been any number of sub-national and national records broken in 08-09 in 2007 suit technology, and the idea of trying to sort out which from which would be a nightmare.

People have gone on to break records after the invention of the 15M rule; they've broken the records of East German and Chinese dopers. It may take a couple years, but eventually they'll break the records of the plastic suit people too.

ImFree
July 26th, 2009, 12:53 PM
I guess I'm glad I didn't drop the $500 for one of those suits, but have a couple of FS Pros that still have some swims in them. We'll see what USMS does, but I'm sure they'll follow on FINA. The whole thing has been has been a mess, and may change yet again from here. FINA let the mfg'ers out run them, and the whole situation got out of control, and when they tried to govern it, they were all over the place, totally inconsistent, and only contributing more confusion and inconsistencies. So now they seem to be taking the easy way out... well, maybe the 2nd easiest way... the easiest being to do nothing.

Personally, I liked the suits for me, but I think other swimmers with different body shapes than me may get more out of them than I do. Or maybe I needed a LZR or B70. However, I don't like the aspect of trying to retard innovation in principle. I would have preferred a more strong governance model, with FINA setting the specs and standards, and the mfg'ers having to pay for the "proof" to submit a suit for approval, subject to audit of course. It's worked with other sports that have gone through similar technical innovation threats, such as golf. Several years ago, the golf clubs and balls were threatening to obsolete many of the classic course since they enabled the player to hit the ball much further, and golf's governing bodies (there are two main ones - USGA and R&A, so they have to come some agreement) were asleep at the wheel. Eventually, the rules were stiffened, but not to the point to stifle technical innovation, but more to control it, and in some cases, dial it back. It was a little messy at first, lawsuits, non-compliant clubs, Arnold Palmer taking Callaway's (think Speedo of golf clubs) side, etc., but eventually everything settled down. For example, club faces (mostly drivers), must not exceed a certain level on the "coefficient of restitution" (a spring effect)... a very technical measurement. Similar restrictions on balls now. But they've recently dialed one standard back, outlawing the use of square grooves, requiring in Jan 1 2010 the use of "v" grooves. Square groves put more spin on the ball and therefore allow for more control on shots from the rough, so the v-grooves should bring an increased penalty for imprecise shots, so we can expect PGA tour scores to go up a bit in 2010.... but the players will likely progress, and get better.

FINA seems to have dialed it too far IMO, like golf's governance orgs going back to wood woods and all steel shafts... or hickory shafts. Now that I think of it, the newer golf technology seemed to help other players more than me, at least on the tee shot... I've always hit the ball well, and long, and I hit about the same distance I have over the years, with a few different (and newer) drivers... but most of my buddies are hitting the ball farther than they used to, much closer to me... and we are all older, but the new clubs allow them to swing harder than they used to. I've spent $450 for a new driver, with mixed results... the one I play with now was an old one of my Dad's he could no longer hit, so it was free... and I hit it long and straight, with much more confidence than I have in years. I still have to swing the clubs to score, and still have to swim the race to win.

Holy cow... watching the world champs on TV as I write this... Ariana Kukors was a 2:07.03, new WR by 1.4 seconds in the 200IM, blew away Stephanie Rice... were can I get a Jaked? I need to see if my folks have one laying around they're not using... :).

hofffam
July 26th, 2009, 02:09 PM
[QUOTE=Syd;187980]Schubert thinks that the tech suit era records should be stricken:
QUOTE]

Schubert has been an idiot for some time now. His "you gotta wear a LZR or you can't win" comments less than two years ago just seem ridiculous. He should just keep his mouth shut. Not many good things come out of it.

Chris Stevenson
July 26th, 2009, 02:22 PM
A shocker: Speedo is upset (http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/swimming/news/story?id=4356078).

I do feel sorry for the effect of FINA's yoyo-ing on the suit manufacturers, including Speedo.

But I think it is a little dishonest for Speedo to say "Speedo has always believed that there is no place in the sport for buoyancy aids." Maybe not as buoyant as the impermeable suits, but most people I know who have worn Speedos (from Fastskins on up) feel like they are buoyant, especially when dry.

And why should buoyancy be forbidden any more than any other type of aid, such as compression?

stillwater
July 26th, 2009, 02:37 PM
And why should buoyancy be forbidden any more than any other type of aid, such as compression?

That is the pertinent question; aid.

Are you anti-taping body parts? Anti-goggles (safety issues aside)?

Heck, I don't know. I do feel that the ability for all to wear the latest tech suits is limited, by design.

Where do you draw the line?

rtodd
July 26th, 2009, 02:49 PM
Wow, a bunch of WR's in the heats. These suits are crazy!!!

It will be nice when we can say good by to them.

thewookiee
July 26th, 2009, 03:23 PM
Speedos (from Fastskins on up) feel like they are buoyant, especially when dry.
?

Feeling Buoyant and being buoyant are 2 different things. FINA could have kept pretty much everyone happy if they had decided to say "All suits used at the 2007 worlds and before are what we are going back too. Any suit approved after the 2007 world's will be illegal"

That would have keep the people who like full body suits happy and those who wanted the suits like b70 and jaked gone happy, except for the suit makes of course.

stillwater
July 26th, 2009, 03:38 PM
[QUOTE][FINA could have kept pretty much everyone happy if they had decided to say "All suits used at the 2007 worlds and before are what we are going back too./QUOTE]

That wouldn't make me happy.

thewookiee
July 26th, 2009, 03:42 PM
[QUOTE][FINA could have kept pretty much everyone happy if they had decided to say "All suits used at the 2007 worlds and before are what we are going back too./QUOTE]

That wouldn't make me happy.

Nothing ever seems to make you happy. You are grumpier than geek

scyfreestyler
July 26th, 2009, 03:49 PM
That wouldn't make me happy.



Wouldn't have made USA Swimming happy either, from what I have read.

thewookiee
July 26th, 2009, 03:52 PM
That wouldn't make me happy.



Wouldn't have made USA Swimming happy either, from what I have read.

Didn't say it would make everyone happy. Most everyone because it would have been a good compromise. Until the last minute, even USA swimming was supporting a proposal to allow guys to wear suits that covered the upper torso and at least to knee suits.

scyfreestyler
July 26th, 2009, 04:00 PM
IMHO, if you love swimming and racing, the legality of bodysuits should not play much of a role in your swimming future (or lack thereof, I suppose).

swoomer
July 26th, 2009, 08:45 PM
It's just that I know how very well the suits contain my aging "flubber." It's depressing to know that there will be no more PB's in my future unless I'm somehow blessed by an angel or something. I think that beyond a certain age, anything should go, just to keep us going.

rodent
July 26th, 2009, 08:53 PM
The way FINA is going, by 2011 we'll be back to doing open turns!

The Fortress
July 26th, 2009, 09:05 PM
A shocker: Speedo is upset (http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/swimming/news/story?id=4356078).

I do feel sorry for the effect of FINA's yoyo-ing on the suit manufacturers, including Speedo.

But I think it is a little dishonest for Speedo to say "Speedo has always believed that there is no place in the sport for buoyancy aids." Maybe not as buoyant as the impermeable suits, but most people I know who have worn Speedos (from Fastskins on up) feel like they are buoyant, especially when dry.

And why should buoyancy be forbidden any more than any other type of aid, such as compression?

Yeah, that's BS. The LZR is buoyant. I'm sure the suit manufacturers will lose bucks, having designed and manufactured suits that they thought would be legal in 2010 based on FINA's previous guidelines ...

I also agree with everything Greg Shaw said earlier.

And I think my own experiments with the evilstroke will now end. I definitely don't love it enough to swim it without my B70. Pfftttt.

geochuck
July 26th, 2009, 09:32 PM
Does anybody really believe the problem will be resolved to the satisfaction of any one.

scyfreestyler
July 26th, 2009, 10:59 PM
Does anybody really believe the problem will be resolved to the satisfaction of any one.


Any one? Yes. Every one? No.

Chris Stevenson
July 26th, 2009, 11:32 PM
FINA could have kept pretty much everyone happy if they had decided to say "All suits used at the 2007 worlds and before are what we are going back too. Any suit approved after the 2007 world's will be illegal"

Completely stifle any further suit development? I don't think that's a good solution. Even if they aren't allowed to make the suits any "better" (ie, more performance-enhancing), innovation to make the suits more durable or cheaper would be welcome.

But within FINA's constraints (materials, coverage...and maybe others like thickness and buoyancy?), suit-makers should feel a market incentive to make the fastest suit possible.

swimmers mom
July 27th, 2009, 01:32 AM
A shocker: Speedo is upset (http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/swimming/news/story?id=4356078).

I do feel sorry for the effect of FINA's yoyo-ing on the suit manufacturers, including Speedo.

But I think it is a little dishonest for Speedo to say "Speedo has always believed that there is no place in the sport for buoyancy aids." Maybe not as buoyant as the impermeable suits, but most people I know who have worn Speedos (from Fastskins on up) feel like they are buoyant, especially when dry.

And why should buoyancy be forbidden any more than any other type of aid, such as compression?

Hi, new here. I just read your post and I'll add my opinion. The difference between compression and buoyant in that one helps fight drag and the other changes a bad body position. The swimmer should learn to change the bad body position on their own.

swimmers mom
July 27th, 2009, 01:40 AM
I really think these suits should be banned for age group swimmers.

The sad thing is, these swimmers aren't learning to swim the right way. If they don't have to work to get their body high on the water or get their back end up on their own, they aren't learning to swim well. If the suit is doing it, then what are they learning?

Not everyone can afford these suits and there should be a level playing field when it comes to kids.

If high school basketball players could buy shoes with springs in them to make them jump higher and those shoes were $500.00- $600.00 a pair, many kids would be forced out of basketball because they would not be able to afford those shoes.

Then, if all the colleges recruited those basketball players and then some of them turned pro, it wouldn't be about who's the best player. It would be about who was able to get a hold of the best shoes.

That's what these Blue seventies and Lasers are doing to our age group swimmers. That's not fair.

Myriam
July 27th, 2009, 02:27 AM
Hello Masters Swimmers: Do we have the official wording that this regulation also applies to Masters Swimmers?

Who can we contact? I think they should exclude Masters Swimmers. Is there any ideas of how to try not to include us.

Myriam

knelson
July 27th, 2009, 10:36 AM
I would have preferred a more strong governance model, with FINA setting the specs and standards, and the mfg'ers having to pay for the "proof" to submit a suit for approval, subject to audit of course. It's worked with other sports that have gone through similar technical innovation threats, such as golf.

In the past my position was to do away with the tech suits altogether--so basically what FINA actually did--and I still think this will be OK, but I do agree with what you're saying. I think FINA at least had a start with their new testing protocol. Obviously it wasn't perfect, but I think with some tweaking they could have come up with something that would still allow for innovation, yet still keeping things fair. I do have to admit the new suits have added excitement to the sport. It hasn't always been positive, but it's been excitement.

Dolphin 2
July 27th, 2009, 11:59 AM
All of us at the Tech Suit Bashers Club Of America (TSBCA) "Blew out all the candles on the cake" and our wish came true! :applaud:

The first thing on the agenda at the next meeting of the TSBCA is to urge FINA to go back to the suits used in the 1980s and 70s.

Dolphin 2

Allen Stark
July 27th, 2009, 12:10 PM
Hello Masters Swimmers: Do we have the official wording that this regulation also applies to Masters Swimmers?

Who can we contact? I think they should exclude Masters Swimmers. Is there any ideas of how to try not to include us.

Myriam

USMS automatically follows FINA unless the board votes not to(which they did after FINA outlawed the B-70 in a very ambiguous way.) I don't have any inside info but I suspect USMS will follow FINA if the rule seems fair.FINA can say they don't care about Masters,but then 2 min later they may change there mind so the safest thing to do is follow FINA rules(stupid as they may be.)

lefty
July 27th, 2009, 12:22 PM
USMS automatically follows FINA unless the board votes not to(which they did after FINA outlawed the B-70 in a very ambiguous way.) I don't have any inside info but I suspect USMS will follow FINA if the rule seems fair.FINA can say they don't care about Masters,but then 2 min later they may change there mind so the safest thing to do is follow FINA rules(stupid as they may be.)

It would be best for USMS to implement the changes in May of 2010 after SCY season. Those swims do not matter in terms of FINA records and switching the rules in the middle of the season is always a bad idea.

geochuck
July 27th, 2009, 12:29 PM
I contacted the USMS to clarify swim suit regulations over a month ago. No response.

marchep
July 27th, 2009, 02:32 PM
Although it appears I am in the minority lets ban them all ON EVERY LEVEL. Time to go back to the classic suit (circa 1992?).

Allen Stark
July 27th, 2009, 03:09 PM
Although it appears I am in the minority lets ban them all ON EVERY LEVEL. Time to go back to the classic suit (circa 1992?).

Actually,the first Tech suit by Speedo came out in 1992(Although it could be said that introducing nylon suits,or latex suits were tech suits for the time.)

Cmonster
July 27th, 2009, 03:26 PM
Ban them all. even the playing field. no more full body suits in the pool.

thewookiee
July 27th, 2009, 03:35 PM
..l. even the playing field.

Wouldn't that be nice? An even playing field. Too bad there is no such in any sport, no matter what suits are or are not allowed. Even if they do decided to ban the tech suits, the playing field won't be close to being even. The one's that have access to the better coaching(coaches, trainers, stretchers,etc) better facilities, better teammates will still be ahead of the game.

Regulate the suits better but don't ban them.

swim53
July 27th, 2009, 05:39 PM
I have rarely competed in suits that were "to the knee". When I bought a tech suit, it had legs to my ankles. I'm so damn short that those knee-length suits come below my knee. Uncomfortable for racing! I wonder if, when all the companies redesign, there will be a size for short people. After all, when we swam in age-group swimming, there were sizes like "30 LONG" for women or girls.

geochuck
July 27th, 2009, 05:53 PM
Swim53 all is not lost. With the right seamstress and sewing machine they can be altered to fit short legged people. It has been done with neck to ankle suits that have been damaged. A suit was altered to make it just above the knee. In fact I know of a swimmer who has had her suit repaired this way, It cost her $20.00.

orca1946
July 27th, 2009, 05:55 PM
What a mess !!!

2fish&1whale
July 28th, 2009, 01:05 PM
Did FINA announce this morning that shoulder to knee suits will be allowed for men?

geochuck
July 28th, 2009, 01:18 PM
Latest I have here http://www.reuters.com/article/sportsNews/idUSTRE56R42H20090728

Some men are getting belly buttons removed and placed on their heads.

Chris Stevenson
July 28th, 2009, 01:37 PM
Did FINA announce this morning that shoulder to knee suits will be allowed for men?

I don't think so.

http://www.swimnews.com/News/view/7117

RobbieD
July 28th, 2009, 01:45 PM
Rowdy Gaines has been talking about FINA allowing shoulders to knees for guys (http://twitter.com/RowdyGaines/status/2891543952). I tend to believe Rowdy but I haven't seen anything confirming it yet.

Tim L
July 28th, 2009, 02:53 PM
Check out the last paragraph here - http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/21861.asp?q=FINA%20World%20Championships,%20Swimmi ng:%20Observations%20from%20FINA%20Bureau%20Press% 20Conference

Maybe this is what Rowdy is referring to:

"FINA also aims for a unisex costume for men and women, but will maintain for now what the governing body has decided. Then, FINA will work in the future to decide on this matter and what's best."

shoalsswimmer
July 28th, 2009, 03:24 PM
At least the body suit can be worn through short course season in 2010; bring it to Atlanta - then kiss it goodbye. Who really knows what FINA will do?

beireland
July 28th, 2009, 05:15 PM
I'm just waiting to see what the unisex turns out to be--other than a really bad idea.

geochuck
July 28th, 2009, 05:19 PM
There are unisex suits on the market now.

Jazz Hands
July 28th, 2009, 05:33 PM
Does anyone know how to translate FINA's permeability standard ("80l/m2/second") into familiar fabrics? I think an old-school lycra suit is much more permeable than, say, a Tracer Light.

dadis
July 28th, 2009, 05:49 PM
Biedermann says it all after beating Phelps today.

"The suits make a difference," Biedermann said. "Last year, it was Speedo. This year, it's Arena."

The difference should be the swimmer. Ban the tech suits.

hofffam
July 28th, 2009, 07:21 PM
Does anyone know how to translate FINA's permeability standard ("80l/m2/second") into familiar fabrics? I think an old-school lycra suit is much more permeable than, say, a Tracer Light.

As written it sounds like they would want to see 80 liters of water flow through 1 square meter of fabric per second.

I think no suit with a rubber-like coating will pass this test.

80 liters is about 20 gallons. I think this test would have to specify some amount of stretch in the fabric too - an unstretched fabric would have smaller pores and pass less water through it.

jim clemmons
July 28th, 2009, 07:44 PM
Check out the last paragraph here - http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/21861.asp?q=FINA%20World%20Championships,%20Swimmi ng:%20Observations%20from%20FINA%20Bureau%20Press% 20Conference

Maybe this is what Rowdy is referring to:

"FINA also aims for a unisex costume for men and women, but will maintain for now what the governing body has decided. Then, FINA will work in the future to decide on this matter and what's best."

Above this, about 6 paragraphs, there's "...The women cannot cover the shoulder, knee dramatically,..."

WTH does "cover the knee dramatically" mean? :confused:

KeithM
July 28th, 2009, 08:21 PM
"The recognition of textile will be chosen by Swiss Federal Institute of Technology. The definition of this will be available on the 30th of September." Three months for the manufacturers?

Which means ...


Rules will apply in 2010, but FINA has yet to decide exactly when in 2010. This lack of specificity raised questions by journalists as to why FINA cannot set a strict deadline, and whether there is any guarantee as to them sticking to this. I can see this being dragged out.


FINA responded – "you will have to trust us".
Huh?

Ripple
July 29th, 2009, 08:02 AM
Above this, about 6 paragraphs, there's "...The women cannot cover the shoulder, knee dramatically,..."

WTH does "cover the knee dramatically" mean? :confused:
No sequins? :D

selkie
July 29th, 2009, 08:50 AM
I've got a world of respect for Mary Descenza because she's stuck with a sport that keeps breaking her heart, but no way does she do the swim she did this morning without the suit.