PDA

View Full Version : Phelps is going down ....



ehoch
July 27th, 2009, 01:32 AM
Making the call -- Phelps will go down in the 200 Free to Biedermann.....:bump:

Couroboros
July 27th, 2009, 02:14 AM
I am Phelps' man through and through. He will triumph over all these mere pretenders, desperately, futilely trying to get a fifteen minutes of fame by being the victor over the rightful King Michael. And the media!- grrr, those annoying twits... they always have to harangue him and say he's lost his edge every single time he loses and Phelps is like... "um, excuse me?" *Phelps proceeds to pull Amazing Feat #208,919 out of his ass* "Chew on that, guys."

Phelps always comes back, with timeliness and grace. That is something many of these one-trick swimmers can't even dream to do.

Lui
July 27th, 2009, 04:19 AM
I am Phelps' man through and through. ... they always have to harangue him and say he's lost his edge every single time he loses and Phelps is like... "um, excuse me?"

So am I.
I like the way Phelps said something like if he loses for not wearing one of these record-setting bodysuits against someone who does, that would just make him push himself even harder to win next time.

Rykno
July 27th, 2009, 04:36 AM
what did Phelps swim the 100 in, 47.79? not that's only .2 off his time from this past summer.
he was 3rd as lead off and 16th over all (including rolling starts)

I think he is ready to swim fast this week....

Rykno
July 27th, 2009, 04:39 AM
prelims from morning swim completed.

Biedermann 1:45.30
Phelps 1:45.60

tjrpatt
July 27th, 2009, 08:43 AM
Even if you lose to Phelps, you can still get more fame than by beating him. Look at Cavic, he is known throughout the US for his bad finish at the 100 fly in Beijing. If he would have beaten Phelps, people wouldn't be talking about that race six months later.

If Phelps loses, it shouldn't matter but the US mainstream sports media will rip him apart like nobody's business. They felt that his career should be over after bonghitgate but it is ok for someone like A-Roid to cheat on his wife, hire hookers and do steroids and get multiple second chances. But, Phelps loves to compete and swim the crap out of everyone so he will still be the King of Swimming for as long as he wants.

knelson
July 27th, 2009, 10:23 AM
Phelps always comes back, with timeliness and grace.

He didn't look very graceful after his 200 fly in either Beijing or Indy earlier this month.

No question Phelps is the ultimate gamer, though. I think Biedermann will make it a race, but I'd still put my money on Phelps.

quicksilver
July 27th, 2009, 10:24 AM
Phelps content with 2nd in 200 free heats By ANDREW DAMPF (AP) – 3 hours ago

ROME — Michael Phelps was unconcerned about posting only the second fastest time in morning heats for the 200-meter freestyle at the world championships Monday.

Paul Biedermann of Germany beat the swimmer who won a record eight gold medals at last year's Beijing Olympics. Phelps won the final heat, but Biedermann's time in the previous heat was faster. "That's fine. I'll be in the first heat tonight," Phelps said, looking ahead to the evening semifinals.

"That'll do pig. That'll do." said Coach Bowman as Phelps exited the pool.

Couroboros
July 27th, 2009, 01:25 PM
Bowman seriously quoted the movie BABE?!

HAHAAHAH!

lefty
July 27th, 2009, 01:38 PM
Biedermann will be slower tomorrow and Phelps will reset the WR. I put the spread at .80

JMiller
July 27th, 2009, 02:23 PM
Biedermann will be slower tomorrow and Phelps will reset the WR. I put the spread at .80

This is a tough call... Unfortunately, the audience isn't able to invest directly into the race... (why?)

lefty
July 27th, 2009, 03:23 PM
This is a tough call... Unfortunately we're not able to invest in the race... (why?)

bodog had lines for the last olympics. Cielo was 25-1 to win the 50. Suckers.

hofffam
July 27th, 2009, 04:14 PM
So Phelps is seeded 3rd for the finals tomorrow. He won his heat, thought two guys were faster in the other heat.

I think Phelps' freestyle is a bit off. His freestyle races this year have been good, but not great. So I will not be surprised if he gets beat. But I won't bet on it.

mattson
July 27th, 2009, 06:16 PM
I think Phelps' freestyle is a bit off.

Didn't he say after the Olympics that he was tinkering with his free technique? Wonder if that is part. (The other part being taking 6 months off after Beijing.)

hofffam
July 27th, 2009, 06:30 PM
Phelps has shown plenty of fly speed recently (100 fly WR and within 1/2 sec of his 200 fly WR). But his freestyle doesn't have the same speed right now. I hope he makes it happen in finals.

JMiller
July 27th, 2009, 06:58 PM
His freestyle doesn't have the same speed right now. I hope he makes it happen in finals.

His 100 freestyle was 47 on the relay... The race will be interesting!:bliss:

2fish&1whale
July 27th, 2009, 07:36 PM
I'm just glad that the german swim program is producing something worth writing home about.Phelps who?

Lump
July 27th, 2009, 08:15 PM
I hear Speedo has a special suit for him in the finals that is guaranteed to set a new WR. I got a photo of it from and "insider" at Speedo. :D

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii271/tinkerbear1985/aquaman.jpg

KeithM
July 27th, 2009, 11:30 PM
Making the call -- Phelps will go down in the 200 Free to Biedermann.....:bump:
I would be more impressed if you made that call before the 400. If you convert his improvement in the 400 to the 200 he'll be well under the WR.

Charge
July 28th, 2009, 08:39 AM
It wouldn't surprise me if Phelps lost, but people would blame the suit (isn't that crazy, speedo being "behind" the times with suits 12 months later!).

Again, I wouldn't bet against him with my own money, but Phelps has looked mortal with the exception of the 100 Fly. people are catching up to him.

tjrpatt
July 28th, 2009, 09:43 AM
No, people will say that it is because of the bong hit back in the November and his six month party tour throughout America which he more than deserved. Mainly, it will be the bong hit. But, I think that Michael will step up and most likely win the 200 free.

Syd
July 28th, 2009, 10:19 AM
No, people will say that it is because of the bong hit back in the November and his six month party tour throughout America which he more than deserved. Mainly, it will be the bong hit. But, I think that Michael will step up and most likely win the 200 free.

Yes. he is never going to live that bong hit down.



Michael Phelps Is A Hot Stoner


Everyone’s favorite swimming stoner, Michael Phelps (http://www.theinsider.com/celebrities/Michael_Phelps), smoked himself all the way to a victory at the 13th FINA World Championships in Rome, Italy this weekend. What did you do this weekend? Damn, to think I spent the weekend going to nightclubs and then in bed to recover all day Sunday for a party that night.

the Insider
Here is the link. (http://www.theinsider.com/news/2610308_Michael_Phelps_Is_A_Hot_Stoner)

mattson
July 28th, 2009, 10:29 AM
Yes. he is never going to live that bong hit down.

I misread that sentence at first:
Yes. he is never going to put that bong ... down.
:bolt:

mctrusty
July 28th, 2009, 12:04 PM
Pre-race, the announcers are already discussing the difference in suits btw Phelps and Biedermann.

mctrusty
July 28th, 2009, 12:07 PM
Wow.

pwolf66
July 28th, 2009, 12:08 PM
1:42.00??????


WOW!!!!!!!!

Phelps didn't look great but Biederman would have beaten him anyway.

mctrusty
July 28th, 2009, 12:10 PM
1:42.00??????


WOW!!!!!!!!

Phelps didn't look great but Biederman would have beaten him anyway.

Biedermann's turnover looked much higher on that last 50 than MP.

Charge
July 28th, 2009, 12:10 PM
He absolutely BURIED Phelps that last 50 meters.

That Guy
July 28th, 2009, 12:11 PM
This is perfect, actually. Now Phelps will be angry for the next 3 years, and will destroy the field in London.

mctrusty
July 28th, 2009, 12:11 PM
He absolutely BURIED Phelps that last 50 meters.

Yeah. Looked like the opposite of what Phelps usually does to people.

2fish&1whale
July 28th, 2009, 12:11 PM
Awsome race!Though I'm biased since I'm German...

JoeBob
July 28th, 2009, 12:17 PM
Man, Biedermann's final 50 was a smoking 25.70.

knelson
July 28th, 2009, 12:20 PM
He absolutely BURIED Phelps that last 50 meters.

Biedermann's final 50 was a 25.70. Just to put that into perspective the qualifying time for the women's 50 free at the U.S. World Trials was 26.39.

Couroboros
July 28th, 2009, 12:21 PM
Grrr. Phelps will be back to give this German pop-tart a good lesson. :bitching:

quicksilver
July 28th, 2009, 12:21 PM
Wow.

Lane Time Time

R.T. 50m 100m 150m Behind

1 4 BIEDERMANN Paul GER 0.81 (1) 24.23 (1) 50.12 (1) 1:16.30 1:42.00 WR
25.89 26.18 25.70

2 3 PHELPS Michael USA 0.68 (2) 24.38 (2) 50.25 (2) 1:16.71 1:43.22 1.22
25.87 26.46 26.51

3 5 IZOTOV Danila RUS 0.60 (5) 24.78 (4) 51.24 (3) 1:17.58 1:43.90 1.90
26.46 26.34 26.32

2fish&1whale
July 28th, 2009, 12:22 PM
His interview was intersting-he doesn't care for the suits and thinks Phelps took off from training too long...

Lui
July 28th, 2009, 12:22 PM
F**K!!!!!
I just got back home 10 minutes after swimming started. The race was already over.

2fish&1whale
July 28th, 2009, 12:23 PM
Grrr. Phelps will be back to give this German pop-tart a good lesson. :bitching:
watch yo mouth-you're p...... on my parade:party2:

Tim L
July 28th, 2009, 12:24 PM
Phelps actually swam fairly well given his lay-off. So, Biedermann went 1:46.00 in Beijing and 1:42.00 today.

How many individual world records will Phelps have when he leaves Rome? Is it possible he could have less than 3? Seems like it is possible.

Tim

Muppet
July 28th, 2009, 12:26 PM
Biedermann's 200 free times
from swimrankings.net (http://www.swimrankings.net/index.php?page=athleteDetail&athleteId=1545529&styleId=3)

best time last year 1:46.00 at beijing.

mctrusty
July 28th, 2009, 12:27 PM
His interview was intersting-he doesn't care for the suits and thinks Phelps took off from training too long...

Yeah. He was pretty humble about the win.

knelson
July 28th, 2009, 12:34 PM
Grrr. Phelps will be back to give this German pop-tart a good lesson. :bitching:

This is inappropriate. Give the guy some credit for an amazing swim.

Jazz Hands
July 28th, 2009, 12:35 PM
Wow, Universal showed the whole medal ceremony with German national anthem!

tjrpatt
July 28th, 2009, 12:37 PM
The Biedermann was right saying that Phelps didn't have enough training leading up to Rome. If you saw his 400 free race at Santa Clara, he was struggling. Of course, the lack of training hasn't affected his butterfly. Biedermann was just at the top of his game.

2fish&1whale
July 28th, 2009, 12:38 PM
Wow, Universal showed the whole medal ceremony with German national anthem!
:drink:PROST!!

mctrusty
July 28th, 2009, 12:38 PM
Wow, Universal showed the whole medal ceremony with German national anthem!

Yeah man. And they even interviewed Biedermann instead of Phelps.

Crazyman
July 28th, 2009, 12:38 PM
Phelps looked kinda frozen while standing next to Biedermann.
Ja, Deutschland ola ola, it is time for Deutsche Schwimmen Jubel:applaud:
It wird be more interesting in London, and this makes swimming atractive again:banana:

Jazz Hands
July 28th, 2009, 12:38 PM
This is inappropriate. Give the guy some credit for an amazing swim.

Beside that, why would anyone root for Michael Phelps? It's like all those people in the TDF thread talking about Lance Armstrong. Like, oh gosh, I hope with all my heart that some guy I don't even know who always wins will win again.

marchep
July 28th, 2009, 12:38 PM
This is inappropriate. Give the guy some credit for an amazing swim.

That was not an amazing swim. That was the the equivalent of doping. A 4 second drop from his best time due to a suit. A four second drop from a time that he held for 3 straight years so any argument that he was improving and this was just the next step is garbage. Swimming just lost a fan until the new rules are put into effect.

onefish
July 28th, 2009, 12:39 PM
There's always the 800 relay lead-off, if he was really feeling stung.....

Crazyman
July 28th, 2009, 12:40 PM
:drink:PROST!!
Prost, endlich mal Deutsche in der Spitze)

knelson
July 28th, 2009, 12:43 PM
That was not an amazing swim.

No. It was.

Unless he had a jet pack hidden somewhere that was an amazing swim, I don't care what suit he was wearing.

Jazz Hands
July 28th, 2009, 12:46 PM
That was not an amazing swim. That was the the equivalent of doping. A 4 second drop from his best time due to a suit. A four second drop from a time that he held for 3 straight years so any argument that he was improving and this was just the next step is garbage. Swimming just lost a fan until the new rules are put into effect.

He raced the fastest men in the world and he blew them all away. I suppose you could do better?

Muppet
July 28th, 2009, 12:47 PM
There's always the 800 relay lead-off, if he was really feeling stung.....

To make a point, phelps should bust out an arena or jaked and lower biedermann's mark on that relay.

2fish&1whale
July 28th, 2009, 12:49 PM
That was not an amazing swim. That was the the equivalent of doping. A 4 second drop from his best time due to a suit. A four second drop from a time that he held for 3 straight years so any argument that he was improving and this was just the next step is garbage. Swimming just lost a fan until the new rules are put into effect.
That is not the point-under the current rules the suits are allowed-was Biedermann suposed to swim nude to give Phelps the advantage?
If Phelps felt he needed the Arena or Jake'd suit to be equaly competetive he of all swimmers whould be allowed to wear one.
But he didn't-and Biederman himself said in his post race interview that he would much rather race Phelps without the aid of the current tech suits.

Lui
July 28th, 2009, 12:50 PM
Prost, endlich mal Deutsche AN der Spitze)

Fixed.
Sorry for being a smart-ass:D

marchep
July 28th, 2009, 12:50 PM
He raced the fastest men in the world and he blew them all away. I suppose you could do better?

Yes, this is exactly what I was saying. I was saying that becasue he dropped 4 seconds from Beijing and even commented himself that the suits make him faster and actually was quoted that when the new rules come into play that he hopes he can keep this up I was actually saying I could do better. Thank you for clarifying my post.

2fish&1whale
July 28th, 2009, 12:50 PM
Prost, endlich mal Deutsche in der Spitze)
Mal hoffen das es jetzt wieder bergauf geht!

Crazyman
July 28th, 2009, 12:55 PM
Mal hoffen das es jetzt wieder bergauf geht!
Is was long time since Michael Gross, Kristin Otto. I guess, they worked out their way and brought on top their best swimmer. We wait for women 100 free.

lefty
July 28th, 2009, 01:05 PM
I doubt beidermann would have won the race LZR v LZR, but it really makes no difference because others will hold the opposite view with each side being equally unprovable. Either way this silliness is going to stop soon. I feel the same way about this swim as I do about Kukor's....yawn.

geochuck
July 28th, 2009, 01:11 PM
Best thing for any swimmer is to be beaten. Then they can make changes to be faster next time out.

lefty
July 28th, 2009, 01:11 PM
Yes, this is exactly what I was saying. I was saying that becasue he dropped 4 seconds from Beijing and even commented himself that the suits make him faster and actually was quoted that when the new rules come into play that he hopes he can keep this up I was actually saying I could do better. Thank you for clarifying my post.

Good response. jazzhands is a good guy though, probably wrote without thinking. We all do it....

Chris Stevenson
July 28th, 2009, 01:33 PM
Man, Biedermann's final 50 was a smoking 25.70.

That's fast all right.

Even more amazing: he came back in 25.77 in the 400. That is faster than the FIRST 50 of all eight finalists (including Biedermann himself). The man can bring a race home.

quicksilver
July 28th, 2009, 02:16 PM
To make a point, phelps should bust out an arena or jaked and lower biedermann's mark on that relay.

Interesting idea. If he went a 1:41.99 with Jaked, you think people would stop saying it's the swimmer not the suit.

tjrpatt
July 28th, 2009, 02:21 PM
Interesting idea. If he went a 1:41.99 with Jaked, you think people would stop saying it's the swimmer not the suit.

I think that Speedo would sue his butt if he put on one of those suits on. It is so funny how swimmers are not screwed if they don't get an endorsement by Speedo now. I assume that Peirsol got a monster deal from Arena as their way to get back in the US market.

lefty
July 28th, 2009, 02:25 PM
Interesting idea. If he went a 1:41.99 with Jaked, you think people would stop saying it's the swimmer not the suit.

What good would further proof do? I mean we have 1001 example already!

swimcat
July 28th, 2009, 02:31 PM
Is was long time since Michael Gross, Kristin Otto. I guess, they worked out their way and brought on top their best swimmer. We wait for women 100 free.

Don't put Biedermann in the same category as Otto. She was on steroids.
The german team women (they had a great relay swim and men both look good this year.
Biedermann suit or not had a great swim, maybe the swim of his life.
Phelps has not looked sharp this year. Dara neither. (maybe too many personal appearences who knows.) ok, not crucify me but it is true.

I am much more interested in the Cavic/phelps match up.

:2cents:

bamueller
July 28th, 2009, 03:34 PM
To quote Biedermann.

"I hope there will be a time when I can beat Michael Phelps without these suits,'' the German added. "I hope next year. I hope it's really soon.''

If these suits put any doubt in your mind, then they need to banned. I think it is unfair that a shadow of doubt is cast on Paul's great swim.

ehoch
July 28th, 2009, 03:46 PM
I think Phelps is just a stubborn idiot regarding the suits -- "I am going to stand by my sponsor" ??? What kind of BS is that -- there is no benefit for Speedo to see him lose in the LZR.

He is going down tomorrow as well ... he can put on the Jaked at any time - nobody is stopping him except his stubborness - but to look all grumpy and blame the suit ??

You can cry about all the records being broken and I agree with much of that - but every swimmer as any suit available - if you choose not to wear it, you can't blame anybody but yourself. Standing principle would be wearing a regular speedo ...

What if the US would have lost the relay by a tenth ? What if the Russians beat the US in the 800 Free relay - I am sure everybody can be happy that he is standing by his sponsor then.

By the way -- the Germans were not allowed to wear the LZR last year at the Olympics - the addidas suits last year were terrible.

Lui
July 28th, 2009, 03:56 PM
Biederman is a bit too modest. The host of the German broadcast was the former (hot) swimmer Franziska van Almsick. Biederman explained in the interview with her that he won because Phelps didn't seem to be in top shape. Van Almsick interrupted him, padded him on the back and told him to give himself some credit and that she thinks he would've beaten Phelps anyway.

I personally would like to see a race between the two without the suits though.

mctrusty
July 28th, 2009, 04:04 PM
I think Phelps is just a stubborn idiot regarding the suits -- "I am going to stand by my sponsor" ??? What kind of BS is that -- there is no benefit for Speedo to see him lose in the LZR.


I think it's honorable that he's standing by his sponsor, but I think he's conflicted over it and he's being a pretty bad sport (http://www.universalsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=23000&ATCLID=204766156). I don't even think he so much as looked at Biedermann after the race. I'm sure part of it is that he's grumpy over the suits and he likes to win, but come on, at least practice some basic sportsmanship.

Lui
July 28th, 2009, 04:08 PM
Here's the race on Youtube: YouTube - Biedermann beats Phelps with record, from Universal Sports

JimRude
July 28th, 2009, 04:10 PM
I think it's honorable that he's standing by his sponsor, but I think he's conflicted over it and he's being a pretty bad sport (http://www.universalsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=23000&ATCLID=204766156). I don't even think he so much as looked at Biedermann after the race. I'm sure part of it is that he's grumpy over the suits and he likes to win, but come on, at least practice some basic sportsmanship.

Word. No class.

Biedermann swam in a legal suit, swam perhaps the race of his life, and gave Phelps a tune-up.

Moral? Don't show up at WCs not ready to swim your best race (or even your best time) and then sulk when you get beaten.

Here endeth the lesson.:bolt:

tjrpatt
July 28th, 2009, 04:11 PM
I am sure that there was alot of hard work that went into Biedermann's performance.

Lui
July 28th, 2009, 04:15 PM
I'm sure part of it is that he's grumpy over the suits and he likes to win, but come on, at least practice some basic sportsmanship.

I'm not sure I can blame Phelps. If Biedermann crushed Phelp's records mainly based on the high tech-suit it is understandable that Phelps is pissed off.

knelson
July 28th, 2009, 04:16 PM
Biederman explained in the interview with her that he won because Phelps didn't seem to be in top shape.

Phelps was only 0.26 seconds slower than he was in Beijing, so I'd say he's in top shape. I'm sure he would have been even a little faster today if it hadn't been clear that the race was over during the final 50.

Lui
July 28th, 2009, 04:18 PM
Phelps was only 0.26 seconds slower than he was in Beijing, so I'd say he's in top shape. I'm sure he would have been even a little faster today if it hadn't been clear that the race was over during the final 50.

That's actually what Franzi van Almsick told Biedermann when she said that he would have won anyway.

Tim L
July 28th, 2009, 04:19 PM
I think Phelps is just a stubborn idiot regarding the suits -- "I am going to stand by my sponsor" ??? What kind of BS is that -- there is no benefit for Speedo to see him lose in the LZR.

He is going down tomorrow as well ... he can put on the Jaked at any time - nobody is stopping him except his stubborness - but to look all grumpy and blame the suit ??

You can cry about all the records being broken and I agree with much of that - but every swimmer as any suit available - if you choose not to wear it, you can't blame anybody but yourself. Standing principle would be wearing a regular speedo ...

What if the US would have lost the relay by a tenth ? What if the Russians beat the US in the 800 Free relay - I am sure everybody can be happy that he is standing by his sponsor then.

By the way -- the Germans were not allowed to wear the LZR last year at the Olympics - the addidas suits last year were terrible.

I agree. However, I think it is more Speedo's money than principle at this point that keeps him from putting on a better suit. I have to say I loved the disapproving look on mama Phelp's face after the 200 free final. Only a school principal could convey that much scorn and disapproval without saying a word. I bet Thorpe's mom had a similar look on her face too. How could you cheat my little boy in front of the whole world and get away with it? The look was just priceless.

Tim

bamueller
July 28th, 2009, 04:26 PM
Bowman, regarding the advantages of the tech suits.


They'd better if they want Phelps around. His coach, Bob Bowman, said he might just withhold the sport's star attraction from any meets until the new rules are implemented.

"We've lost all the history of the sport,'' Bowman said. "Does a 10-year-old boy in Baltimore want to break Paul Biedermann's record? Is that going to make him join swimming?''

What?! So, just because Phelps doesn't win, 10-year-old boys in Baltimore are choosing other sports over swimming?

When I was a boy, growing up in Baltimore, I wanted to be like Michael Gross, the German butterflyer. Just because an American wasn't the star didn't discourage me from wanting to swim.

Boys and girls of all ages need to learn how to win as well as lose. These are valuable lessons.

I am definitely excited to see these world-class swimmers competing in jammers.

mctrusty
July 28th, 2009, 04:30 PM
Bowman, regarding the advantages of the tech suits.

They'd better if they want Phelps around. His coach, Bob Bowman, said he might just withhold the sport's star attraction from any meets until the new rules are implemented.

"We've lost all the history of the sport,'' Bowman said. "Does a 10-year-old boy in Baltimore want to break Paul Biedermann's record? Is that going to make him join swimming?''
What?! So, just because Phelps doesn't win, 10-year-old boys in Baltimore are choosing other sports over swimming?

When I was a boy, growing up in Baltimore, I wanted to be like Michael Gross, the German butterflyer. Just because an American wasn't the star didn't discourage me from wanting to swim.

Boys and girls of all ages need to learn how to win as well as lose. These are valuable lessons.

I am definitely excited to see these world-class swimmers competing in jammers.

According to swimnews, Phelps won't compete in int'l competition until the suit ban takes effect, per Bowman's order. (http://swimnews.com/News/view/7123)

Lui
July 28th, 2009, 04:44 PM
When I was a boy, growing up in Baltimore, I wanted to be like Michael Gross, the German butterflyer. Just because an American wasn't the star didn't discourage me from wanting to swim.


I read today that Michael Gross is really against the tech suits.

ehoch
July 28th, 2009, 05:08 PM
That just makes no sense -- what is the bigger difference ?

No Tech suit vs. LZR
or
LZR vs Arena/Jaked

So last year the LZR was just fine, and now the suits are evil :badday: ????

How come he now wears a full body LZR in the 100 Fly ?

I support the Tech suits as long as my company has the best suit on the market ???

quicksilver
July 28th, 2009, 05:23 PM
"Bob Bowman, coach to Michael Phelps, has instructed his charge not to race again in international waters - after Rome 2009 - until the new FINA suit rules kick in in 2009."


In other words LZR's may not have the same time bandit ability as Jakeds and X-Glides.
And he's stuck on the sidelines with an inferior suit?

scyfreestyler
July 28th, 2009, 05:31 PM
"Bob Bowman, coach to Michael Phelps, has instructed his charge not to race again in international waters - after Rome 2009 - until the new FINA suit rules kick in in 2009."


In other words LZR's may not have the same time bandit ability as Jakeds and X-Glides.
And he's stuck on the sidelines with an inferior suit?

I wonder how many, if any, other elite level swimmers will follow suit. :)

Paul Smith
July 28th, 2009, 05:42 PM
That was not an amazing swim. That was the the equivalent of doping. A 4 second drop from his best time due to a suit. A four second drop from a time that he held for 3 straight years so any argument that he was improving and this was just the next step is garbage. Swimming just lost a fan until the new rules are put into effect.

It was a super human swim. I go back to other discussions that we have here about time drops...this is literally unbelievable for a person at the highest level of our sport to drop that amount of time..suit or no suit. This is what we expect of 12 & unders, occasional high school swimmers or late starters...

4 seconds in a 200?

Chris Stevenson
July 28th, 2009, 05:43 PM
That just makes no sense -- what is the bigger difference ?

No Tech suit vs. LZR
or
LZR vs Arena/Jaked

So last year the LZR was just fine, and now the suits are evil :badday: ????

How come he now wears a full body LZR in the 100 Fly ?

I support the Tech suits as long as my company has the best suit on the market ???

Definitely Phelps' statements -- and, all during this mess, Speedo's -- are inconsistent and self-serving.

And don't these sorts of statements support those who demeaned Phelps' accomplishments last year? "He only won all those medals b/c he had the best technology." (I'm not saying I agree with this statement.)

Not surprisingly, accurately or not, people are blaming the suits for two upsets: Phelps', and Piersol missing the finals in the 100 back. Just two more nails in the coffin, I suppose.

BTW, about the whole "full body" thing: I couldn't help but notice the winner of the 100 back wore legs only. As did Piersol when he set the WR, which would have won easily today. (And Irie REALLY needs to work on his underwaters...)

Paul Smith
July 28th, 2009, 05:44 PM
"Bob Bowman, coach to Michael Phelps, has instructed his charge not to race again in international waters - after Rome 2009 - until the new FINA suit rules kick in in 2009."


In other words LZR's may not have the same time bandit ability as Jakeds and X-Glides.
And he's stuck on the sidelines with an inferior suit?

It was really cool of Bob to stand up last year when the LZR was introduced and say that in support of other countries who cannot swim in Speedo because of their Federation rules we have decided that the US team should follow suit.

2fish&1whale
July 28th, 2009, 05:47 PM
So last year the LZR was just fine, and now the suits are evil :badday: ????
Based on his and Bowmans reaction to this race this seems to be their thinking.

What I apreciate about this swim is that Phelps has some of the best training in the world available to him, but chose to take time off and from the looks of it if it was too much.
Biedermann on the other hand must have dedicated a good 12 month of intense training,and it has paid off.
The suit is secondary-if Phelps thinks he only lost because of his inferior suit than he owes an explanation to all the swimmers he beat last year at the Olympics-because of the LZR.
Mike-you can not have it both ways!Suck it up and be a big boy about it.....

ehoch
July 28th, 2009, 05:57 PM
I have no idea what Biedermann was wearing in November last year - but he did take down Thorpe's 200 Free short course meters record and went 3:34 in the 400 -- which is about 3:41 in long course.

Chris Stevenson
July 28th, 2009, 06:07 PM
It was really cool of Bob to stand up last year when the LZR was introduced and say that in support of other countries who cannot swim in Speedo because of their Federation rules we have decided that the US team should follow suit.

Oh, it gets even better: he thinks the WRs from the last two years should be eliminated (http://swimnews.com/News/view/7123) too.

quicksilver
July 28th, 2009, 06:21 PM
Nice article. Bowman's perspective seems to harbor a bit of frustration ....

"It took me five years to get Michael from 1:46 to 1:42 and this guy has done it in 11months. That's an amazing training performance. I'd like to know how to do that.

"I just said to Doug Frost [Thorpe's mentor], the two of us were erased in three days. It took no time, what took us 12 years together (to build).

"It makes me wonder why I still want to keep doing this. Why would I take another 13-year-old and bring him through, because once he gets there, there's is nothing to shoot for. Once the suits are taken out we would never get there (to Biedermann's time).

"There should be separate lists for polyurethane and textile suits, so we can start over in January. I think these records need to be kept apart."

ehoch
July 28th, 2009, 06:36 PM
Bowman is totally missing the point of racing and competition -- I find this just silly. It is NEVER just about the times -- it's about a level playing field and competing against the best swimmers at any given moment.

The playing field is more even this year than last year - nobody can really argue with that.

About the times -- sure they are meaningless at this meet, but times have ALWAYS been dropping and that does not cause great champions to lose their credibility. I swam faster in the 200 Free as age grouper than Mark Spitz -- just 14 years after him being the greatest swimmer in history. Does that make me a better 200 Freestyler than him ? Does that mean his world record was meaningless ?

The Fortress
July 28th, 2009, 06:44 PM
Bowman is totally missing the point of racing and competition -- I find this just silly. It is NEVER just about the times -- it's about a level playing field and competing against the best swimmers at any given moment.

The playing field is more even this year than last year - nobody can really argue with that.

No kidding ...

Bowman is being somewhat of a hypocrite and a whiner. If Phelps was wearing Arena, would he say the same thing?

Jazz Hands
July 28th, 2009, 06:47 PM
About the times -- sure they are meaningless at this meet, but times have ALWAYS been dropping and that does not cause great champions to lose their credibility. I swam faster in the 200 Free as age grouper than Mark Spitz -- just 14 years after him being the greatest swimmer in history. Does that make me a better 200 Freestyler than him ? Does that mean his world record was meaningless ?

Hoch, you're a fast guy. If the times turn out that way, I think it is fair to say that you were a better swimmer than Mark Spitz (allowing some leeway for the mustache effect). The reason we admire Spitz isn't because he was more skilled than any of us at swimming, it's because he was ahead of his time.

That's why it's nice to have some consistency in the records. And until last year we pretty much had that. We were able to talk about how amazing Janet Evans was that her records still stood after a couple decades, stuff like that. It's all jumbled up now. Thorpe's 400 record could very well have been the same way, but it's been erased and even Biedermann said he couldn't have done it without a new suit.

Chris Stevenson
July 28th, 2009, 06:55 PM
The playing field is more even this year than last year - nobody can really argue with that.

Of course they can. People can argue about anything. :)

Your point about shifting times is well-taken, though I don't think we've seen as abrupt a shift as in the last 18 months. (That, more than anything else, is the reason I think Piersol missed the finals in the 100 back. He simply misjudged the speed of the field. Though that certainly happened pre-LZR too.)

Still, swimming and track always have the clock as an absolute measure, even though techniques, training methods and the standards of excellence slowly evolve. I like being able to compare, directly, what I have done this year to 5 or 10 years prior. I believe you said something similar when you once called for a voluntary ban in masters meets.

I just wonder if swimmers & coaches reached the saturation point. Personally, I did get a little tired of, whenever some incredible swim is done, thinking "what suit was s/he wearing?" Or asking the same thing whenever there is a major upset.

Bring me back the good old days of just wondering what drugs they've been taking...:D

JimRude
July 28th, 2009, 07:02 PM
Bowman is totally missing the point of racing and competition -- I find this just silly. It is NEVER just about the times -- it's about a level playing field and competing against the best swimmers at any given moment.

The playing field is more even this year than last year - nobody can really argue with that.

About the times -- sure they are meaningless at this meet, but times have ALWAYS been dropping and that does not cause great champions to lose their credibility. I swam faster in the 200 Free as age grouper than Mark Spitz -- just 14 years after him being the greatest swimmer in history. Does that make me a better 200 Freestyler than him ? Does that mean his world record was meaningless ?

I agree 100% - times are period/technology specific, and just because one swims faster now than Spitz, Biondi, etc does not mean one is a "better" swimmer. Swimming is racing, pure and simple. The times are just how we keep score for any particular race.

Bowman is an embarrassment and needs to shut his trap.

quicksilver
July 28th, 2009, 07:14 PM
I wonder how many, if any, other elite level swimmers will follow suit. :)

Good pun on words.

You can bet that the LZR lawyers are keeping a close watch on team Speedo to devour anyone who might jump ship.
Breach of contract can be very ugly.

Frank Thompson
July 28th, 2009, 07:19 PM
I have no idea what Biedermann was wearing in November last year - but he did take down Thorpe's 200 Free short course meters record and went 3:34 in the 400 -- which is about 3:41 in long course.

Biedermann was wearing an Arena when he broke the WR of Ian Thorpe of 1:41.10 with a time of 1:40.83 last November in a SCM World Cup meet. After the Olympics, he began working hard and showed improvement in just 4 months. He broke Ian Thorpe's WR from 2000 but it went completely unnoticed because we don't take SCM seriously here in the USA in Swimming.

YouTube - World Record for Biedermann


Now to take a look at the final of the 200 Free at the 2008 Olympics and check out the suit that Paul Biedermann is wearing. And of course check out the LZR that Phelps is wearing and it does not look like a level playing field to me. Paul Biedermann is not even wearing a full body suit and just legs and he goes 1:46.00 and the suit looks like an out of date adidas that there swimmers were forced to wear.

YouTube - Michael Phelps 200M Freestyle Final Beijing 08

swiminny
July 28th, 2009, 07:56 PM
I just watched the interview Biedermann did for Universal. I thought he was very humble and also showed great class and sportsmanship.

Frankly, Phelps and Bowman could learn something from him. At the moment their behaviour comes off as bitter and grumpy. You didn't hear them complain when they had LZR and other teams did not.

At least Phelps has the chance to get the world records back by using an arena or jaked suit in this meet. The swimmers who have been wiped from the records book like Thorpe have no such option and they are wiped forever.

ehoch
July 28th, 2009, 08:05 PM
After the Olympics, he began working hard and showed improvement in just 4 months.

One of the few people who works hard AFTER the Olympics :afraid:

Fav quote of the thread
Bring me back the good old days of just wondering what drugs they've been taking

About the Final from last year -- the suit only makes ONE second difference, nobody has mentioned the CAP so far :bump: -- he swam the Olympic final without a cap - I think it's at least a second per ear and then another one for the hair :doh:

ehoch
July 28th, 2009, 08:10 PM
When Phelps comes in second tomorrow:

- Mom is going to jump from the stands in a suicide attempt or maybe to promote her clothing sponsor although the company has been out of style for decades (and not months like the LZR)

- Bowman will withdraw Phelps from the 100 Fly and he will kidnap Cavic and force him to watch the 100 Final 100 times over and over and over until he admits to defeat.

- Phelps will walk out on the pool deck naked in one of the relays -- to make a statement that the Greek Olympians had it right after all

any more ideas ????

tjrpatt
July 28th, 2009, 08:15 PM
Why was the sister ready to burst out into tears? He already won 14 gold medals. He is the greatest swimmer to walk the earth. Did Janet Evans's family start crying when she starting losing? I highly doubt it. Just enjoy the free trip by your mother's sponsor and calm the heck down.

Man, Bowman can be one angry dude!!!!

tjrpatt
July 28th, 2009, 08:27 PM
Biedermann was wearing an Arena when he broke the WR of Ian Thorpe of 1:41.10 with a time of 1:40.83 last November in a SCM World Cup meet. After the Olympics, he began working hard and showed improvement in just 4 months. He broke Ian Thorpe's WR from 2000 but it went completely unnoticed because we don't take SCM seriously here in the USA in Swimming.

YouTube - World Record for Biedermann (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RS3oilvQB4)


Now to take a look at the final of the 200 Free at the 2008 Olympics and check out the suit that Paul Biedermann is wearing. And of course check out the LZR that Phelps is wearing and it does not look like a level playing field to me. Paul Biedermann is not even wearing a full body suit and just legs and he goes 1:46.00 and the suit looks like an out of date adidas that there swimmers were forced to wear.


After watching this clip, The Phelps I saw today looked nothing like he did in this clip. His final SDK was strong and amazing. Today, he seemed alot weaker and was struggling a bit. Phelps had an off Worlds in 2005 and he is having an off Worlds at 2009 so far. It is no big deal. Geesh, what a difference hard work will make in a year for Biedermann. :applaud:.

Chris Stevenson
July 28th, 2009, 08:33 PM
When Phelps comes in second tomorrow

My own prediction is that he'll win the 200 but not the 100 fly.

But before the 400 free, I didn't think Phelps would lose the 200 -- certainly not by over 1 second! -- so you are doing better than I as a prognoticator...

mikeh
July 28th, 2009, 08:37 PM
Word. No class.

Biedermann swam in a legal suit, swam perhaps the race of his life, and gave Phelps a tune-up.

Moral? Don't show up at WCs not ready to swim your best race (or even your best time) and then sulk when you get beaten.

Here endeth the lesson.:bolt:

I disagree that Phelps has "no class." He just suffered a stunning defeat from a competitor who dropped four seconds in one year. Going from 1:46.00 (Olympics - 5th place) to the fastest the world has ever known by a full second (1:42.0) is...unbelievable. Biedermann is not a 17 year old who is still growing. He is a grown man at 23. 4% improvements (Biedermann's rough percentage improvement) are not in the cards for most 23 year old men.

Furthermore, the nature of this defeat forces Phelps to completely re-evaluate every aspect of his race, and subsequently his training. Biedermann had an unbelievable final lap (25.7 to Phelps' 26.5), normally the strongest point of Phelps' race. If Phelps cannot depend on his final lap to catch and outlast his rivals, he can only hope to get so far ahead that Biedermann cannot catch him. Except...Biedermann beat Phelps on the opening 50 meters too, and then beat him quite badly in the final 50 meters. Bidermann's defeat of Phelps was total, and Phelps really has no place to go, strategically, to win. He just has to somehow pray he is capable of a 1:41, hope Bidermann doesn't improve significantly, or, more likely, hope that Biedermann's race was a product almost solely of the suit, which Biedermann will not be allowed to wear in 2010.

The knowledge of a loss that is probably attributable to a suit that Phelps was not wearing is a bitter defeat indeed. Yes, it would have been nice to see Phelps be more congratulatory after the race, but he is human like everyone else.

ViveBene
July 28th, 2009, 08:38 PM
Here's an interesting quote from M. Phelps in Craig Lord's column.

"Given all that has happened in Phelps's life and the amazing time on the board a year after Beijing, despite the deficit to the champion ahead of him, the American said: "Deep down inside I can’t be disappointed and mad, I just can’t. Paul swam a great race, and this result shows that to swim long course you have to be in shape. I can’t dream it. I wish I could, but I have to get back into physical shape." "

Couroboros
July 28th, 2009, 08:41 PM
Jesus H. Christ! I've seen pictures of Phelps in Rome lately.... that man doesn't think he's in physical shape?! HOLY ****!

lefty
July 28th, 2009, 09:14 PM
I have to admit that I forgot about Germany's plight at the last Olympics. That was the much BIGGER meet and they got hosed more than Phelps got hosed today. I automatically assumed that LZR v LZR or speedo brief v speedo brief PHelps would win; I am not so sure now.

I like what Hoch pointed out 4 pages ago: nothing motivates a swimmer like losing! ANd hey, Phelps now has a rival!

quicksilver
July 28th, 2009, 09:32 PM
Very well said.


I disagree that Phelps has "no class." He just suffered a stunning defeat from a competitor who dropped four seconds in one year. Going from 1:46.00 (Olympics - 5th place) to the fastest the world has ever known by a full second (1:42.0) is...unbelievable. Biedermann is not a 17 year old who is still growing. He is a grown man at 23. 4% improvements (Biedermann's rough percentage improvement) are not in the cards for most 23 year old men.

Furthermore, the nature of this defeat forces Phelps to completely re-evaluate every aspect of his race, and subsequently his training. Biedermann had an unbelievable final lap (25.7 to Phelps' 26.5), normally the strongest point of Phelps' race. If Phelps cannot depend on his final lap to catch and outlast his rivals, he can only hope to get so far ahead that Biedermann cannot catch him. Except...Biedermann beat Phelps on the opening 50 meters too, and then beat him quite badly in the final 50 meters. Bidermann's defeat of Phelps was total, and Phelps really has no place to go, strategically, to win. He just has to somehow pray he is capable of a 1:41, hope Bidermann doesn't improve significantly, or, more likely, hope that Biedermann's race was a product almost solely of the suit, which Biedermann will not be allowed to wear in 2010.

The knowledge of a loss that is probably attributable to a suit that Phelps was not wearing is a bitter defeat indeed. Yes, it would have been nice to see Phelps be more congratulatory after the race, but he is human like everyone else.

mikeh
July 28th, 2009, 09:37 PM
Very well said.

Thank you!

geochuck
July 28th, 2009, 09:58 PM
German swimmer, I remember when we were suspect of all German swimmers using steroids. Did you notice his muscle structure.

Jazz Hands
July 28th, 2009, 10:03 PM
German swimmer, I remember when we were suspect of all German swimmers using steroids. Did you notice his muscle structure.

Yes, it was suspiciously human.

geochuck
July 28th, 2009, 10:05 PM
I will wait for the test results.

khodko
July 28th, 2009, 10:14 PM
Make a note for the year 2010 and beyond.

The 3rd finisher in this race was 17 y.o. boy Danila Izotov. He swam 47,23 in the 4x100 free relay. He is immensely gifted for swimming, and he is from a small Russian town where Alex Popov started his swimming career.

ehoch
July 28th, 2009, 11:09 PM
4 second drop in 1 year --

He went 1:46.00 last year - in a crappy suit. The LZR is close to 2 seconds faster than what Biedermann had last year.

Make that 1.5 -

Give another second to the new Arena Suit

Give another second to getting faster - that's 3.5 -- the last 1/2 second comes from being in the lead in the Final after the last turn ....

ourswimmer
July 28th, 2009, 11:52 PM
the last 1/2 second comes from being in the lead in the Final after the last turn ....

The video needs a thought balloon, starting at about 125m: "I am ahead. Come on, me. Stay focused. This race is mine. It's mine. [flip] It's mine."

knelson
July 29th, 2009, 12:01 AM
After watching this clip, The Phelps I saw today looked nothing like he did in this clip. His final SDK was strong and amazing. Today, he seemed alot weaker and was struggling a bit.

I'm not sure if it's Phelps looking worse or his competition looking a lot better. You always look great when you win.

Muppet
July 29th, 2009, 12:11 AM
I've done the hair and cap with/without experiment personally. Giving Biedermann a full second with the cap would be extremely generous. There is an advantage with a cap, but even for a furry muppet, it isn't that great.

bekalc
July 29th, 2009, 01:48 AM
I've been reading up on it, and I'm not huge on swimming, and I learned that Peter actually set the world short course record without a polytech suit. His Arena suit was apparently the old Revolution. Considering that was last November. I think it's safe to say that he probably had more in the tank at the Olympics...

Also apparently he broke the European record with 1.44.71 and that was also without a polytech suit... So his huge jump in seconds is only as shocking as it is because he didn't have the LZR last year....

Personally I think the suits need to be banned. It shouldn't be about who has the fastest suit. But I think it's really hypocritical for anyone who was wearing the LZR last year to be screaming unfairness now.

2fish&1whale
July 29th, 2009, 08:07 AM
German swimmer, I remember when we were suspect of all German swimmers using steroids. Did you notice his muscle structure.
No need to go there-even to make a joke.
The doping scandal that the EAST German swimmers went through in the 80's I think contributed greatly to the overwall demise of swimming programs in all of Germany, even after the reunification.
It has taken them close to 20 years to build up again and unless there is truly a suspicion of doping (like the Chinese swimmers the last 2 Olympics) why make that kind of coment?

aquageek
July 29th, 2009, 08:23 AM
German swimmer, I remember when we were suspect of all German swimmers using steroids. Did you notice his muscle structure.

This is a complete 180 from your previous statements on this topic.

geochuck
July 29th, 2009, 08:38 AM
Geek are you talking about this topic Phelps is going down.... or some other topic. If so refresh my thoughts so I know what you are talking about.

Is swimming now a pure sport??? Do we consider Tech suits as doping?

quicksilver
July 29th, 2009, 10:16 AM
After watching this clip, The Phelps I saw today looked nothing like he did in this clip. His final SDK was strong and amazing. Today, he seemed alot weaker and was struggling a bit. Phelps had an off Worlds in 2005 and he is having an off Worlds at 2009 so far. It is no big deal. Geesh, what a difference hard work will make in a year for Biedermann. :applaud:.


His trademark Shamu kick looked totally ineffective, but that's probably because Biedermann came off the wall like a rocket.
They both went the full 15 meters.

And not to give too much credit to the suit, but that last 50 meters was an incredible push to the finish. He was on mission to win.

swimcat
July 29th, 2009, 10:27 AM
If i was going to race phelps, i would study the tapes and his strategy. he is predictable - like Peirsol- last 50 push it (ok, everybody does this but...). work walls like a beast.
and again i wonder what Alain Bernard has to say about all of this? remember his swim was unallowed earlier this year.
I do not believe Biedermann is jacked up. i lived in Germany and I saw lots of big men.:) maybe he is a musli fresser like me.

gshaw
July 29th, 2009, 10:32 AM
I think it's really hypocritical for anyone who was wearing the LZR last year to be screaming unfairness now.

I agree entirely.

Frank Thompson
July 29th, 2009, 11:53 AM
Back on topic. Is Phelps going to go down today? The most likly candidates to do this would be Matsuda of Japan, who qualified first today and was the bronze medalist at the 2008 Olympics with a 1:52.97 and he looked good in the SF yesterday. The polish swimmer, Pawel Korzeniowski was the world's fastest in 2005, when Phelps didn't swim the event at the 2005 World Championships.

Does anybody give these guys a chance after what happened yesterday? I think chances of an upset when up considerably since yesterday.

quicksilver
July 29th, 2009, 12:17 PM
It's been proven that he's not invincible.

The psychological edge offered by the rubber suits (along with their preparation) may spur on some interesting racing.
A big part of swimming fast is mental.

Right now Bowman has already conceded a level of defeat by saying the other suits aren't fair.
That's not the ideal frame of mind for Phelps to be in before his event.

Lui
July 29th, 2009, 12:29 PM
It's been proven that he's not invincible.



But he's BACK!! New WR without the suit!

mctrusty
July 29th, 2009, 12:29 PM
Didn't help anyone beat him in the 2-fly. That was a pretty nice swim.

knelson
July 29th, 2009, 12:43 PM
It just proves the mental fortitude Phelps has. He could have let what happened yesterday ruin the rest of the meet for him. Instead it's seemed to make him stronger.

Lump
July 29th, 2009, 02:20 PM
But he's BACK!! New WR without the suit!

Yep, getting 2nd and being pissed off can be quite a motivator.:applaud:

quicksilver
July 29th, 2009, 04:37 PM
Yep, getting 2nd and being pissed off can be quite a motivator.:applaud:

Not to mention the Beijing goggle malfunction. He was visibly disappointed last summer despite the record.

Guess his freestyle mojo must have been a bit off the other day, if he can still drop time wearing a stinky old pair of legskins.

Chris Stevenson
July 29th, 2009, 04:51 PM
Not to mention the Beijing goggle malfunction. He was visibly disappointed last summer despite the record.

Guess his freestyle mojo must have been a bit off the other day, if he can still drop time wearing a stinky old pair of legskins.

It is all relative, though. He wore the same suits at Beijing: body for the free, legs for the fly. He increased 0.3 sec in the free and dropped 0.5 in the fly. But, as you say, he expected to go faster in the fly at Beijing; his goggles undoubtedly contributed to that.

As someone else mentioned, you always look good when you're out in front. At Rome he just didn't have anybody step up in the 200 fly like in the 200 free. If somebody in a Jaked or Arena had gone a 1:50 we would probably all be saying how Phelps must have taken a bong hit just before his race or something.

GGS5T
July 29th, 2009, 05:19 PM
My admiration for the great Michael Phelps has gone down.

Last year he was happy to wear a LZR Speedo suit, which was the best suit on the market. He didn't complain that he had an advantage over swimmers who couldn't get their hands on the LZR.

Today he can see that the Jaked suit is far superior to the LZR. Of course, he can't wear one because he's sponsored by Speedo. He's tied to them.

So what does he do? Whine about those who do wear the Jaked , and say he won't compete until they are banned.

If he walked away from his Speedo contract he would be sued, and he knows it. Michael, you went for the big dollar and now you can see it was a mistake. Stop whining, and get on with life.

orca1946
July 29th, 2009, 05:20 PM
OK so next time let's lose the tech suits & do it in speedos !!

quicksilver
July 29th, 2009, 05:22 PM
we would probably all be saying how Phelps must have taken a bong hit just before his race or something. Funny, but so true.

The non-swimming sports journalist seems to generate these type of stories far too often. Now it's all about the suits.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/30/sports/30swim.html?em


Phelps Rebounds Amid Swimsuit Controversy


Phelps’s loyalty to a swimsuit that many people now consider inferior should not be too surprising. He has had the same coach, Bowman, since he was 12, the same prerace routine since he was 13, and has stuck with the 200 fly, a backbreaking event, since making his first Olympic team in the event in 2000, at age 15.

Earlier this summer, after it became apparent that the new wave of swimsuits was building to a tsunami that would wipe out the record books, Bowman considered asking Phelps, 24, to try out one of the new suits.

“Honestly, I had a temptation to put it on him in practice,” Bowman said, “just so I would know for sure in my mind what the difference was. But then I thought no, because once he finds out it might just create a conflict.”

knelson
July 29th, 2009, 06:23 PM
So what does he do? Whine about those who do wear the Jaked , and say he won't compete until they are banned.

To be fair it was Bowman who whined and said Phelps won't be swimming until the suits are banned. Now, maybe they're playing a little "good cop, bad cop" here, but still we probably shouldn't put words into Phelps' mouth. Phelps said yesterday that he got beat "by a swimmer" when asked if he was beaten by a person or a suit. He also said "Paul swam a great race."

Sam Perry
July 29th, 2009, 08:40 PM
So what does he do? Whine about those who do wear the Jaked , and say he won't compete until they are banned.

If he walked away from his Speedo contract he would be sued, and he knows it. Michael, you went for the big dollar and now you can see it was a mistake. Stop whining, and get on with life.

This is a load of crap! Tell me one (ONE) quote of him "whining" about the suit? Please show me. When you make blanket statements like this please back it up. Give me a break.

ViveBene
July 29th, 2009, 09:04 PM
It's my understanding that some swimsuit manufacturers allow their contracted swimmers to wear whatever suit they feel they will do best in at significant meets. Until the contract is open for public reading, no one can say that "Speedo would sue" if a contendor under Speedo contract tried another suit.

I look forward to all being revealed when M. Phelps gets around to writing his third autobiography, perhaps at age 27 (or in 2012).

3strokes
July 29th, 2009, 09:07 PM
Mal hoffen das es jetzt wieder bergauf geht!

Pero, nonobstante eso, no es igual hacerlo que decirlo, por si las moscas..... ¿Verdad?

DPC
July 29th, 2009, 09:21 PM
This is a load of crap! Tell me one (ONE) quote of him "whining" about the suit? Please show me. When you make blanket statements like this please back it up. Give me a break.

That's it - I don't see where he is whining about the suit. A lot of whining has been attributed to Phelps but from the video and news reports he's a guy who lost in a race he's owned for sometime and was not happy to be 2nd. He reacted like Roddick did at Wimbledon (though Andy wasn't the favorite there) - he really didn't want to be there. Phelps congratulated Biederman, said he swam the better race and that the swimmer beat him not the suit. I know a lot of people will call bs - that Phelps and Bowman are just playing the game, but no one really knows because they were not and are not in Rome.

Speedo paid Phelps a lot of money and he performed - if he had jumped ship, wouldn't that have been a more egregious and cynical move. He stayed with the suit he had, and tried to prove the swimmer was more important than the suit. I'm still not convinced that he wasn't angry that he lost because he wasn't fully prepared for that race.

tjrpatt
July 29th, 2009, 09:34 PM
No matter how un-Phelps-like shape he was in for the 200 free, He still can break a world record in the 200 fly. He doesn't need the endurance training that is usually needed for the 200 fly to break a world record. Simply amazing. Of course, part of that swim was out of anger for his 200 free loss. His swimming is pretty amazing after 6 months of training and a crappy suit.

funkyfish
July 29th, 2009, 09:50 PM
No matter how un-Phelps-like shape he was in for the 200 free, He still can break a world record in the 200 fly. He doesn't need the endurance training that is usually needed for the 200 fly to break a world record. Simply amazing. Of course, part of that swim was out of anger for his 200 free loss. His swimming is pretty amazing after 6 months of training and a crappy suit.
I can't imagine how angry I'd have to get to swim a 200m fly. Serenity now…serenity now… :D

On another note, I think it'll be interesting to see what sort of psychological effect loosing the tech suits will have on some of the swimmers. Based on some of the cursory comments from swimmers and coaches, it sounds like some are already talking themselves out of equivalent or faster times?

geochuck
July 30th, 2009, 12:14 AM
I cannot understand the thinking. No matter what they say it is not the swim suit that wins the race. I think Phelps just proved it.

I think too many are giving credit to the swim suit and not the swimmer.

Michael Heather
July 30th, 2009, 12:49 AM
Pero, nonobstante eso, no es igual hacerlo que decirlo, por si las moscas..... ¿Verdad?


Forse gli utenti della tribuna ora rispetteranno il meglio?

Wounded Moose
July 30th, 2009, 12:51 AM
Forse gli utenti della tribuna ora rispetteranno il meglio?

Pourquoi toute utilisation de ces personnes sont-elles d'autres langues ?

knelson
July 30th, 2009, 12:56 AM
I cannot understand the thinking. No matter what they say it is not the swim suit that wins the race. I think Phelps just proved it.

I don't think this meet has proved anything, but it strongly suggests that fast swimmers can swim extremely fast in fast suits. But we knew that, didn't we?

Dennis Baker suggested something interesting on Facebook today. He said he thinks the suits actually help the swimmers with the best technique the most. This is contrary to popular opinion which has been that the suit helps swimmers with poor technique and body position more. I tend to agree.

KeithM
July 30th, 2009, 01:42 AM
Dennis Baker suggested something interesting on Facebook today. He said he thinks the suits actually help the swimmers with the best technique the most. This is contrary to popular opinion which has been that the suit helps swimmers with poor technique and body position more. I tend to agree. And what would be the reasoning? If it's an opinion derived solely from personal experience with the suits there could be a slight conflict of interest when arriving at said opinion. ;)

smontanaro
July 30th, 2009, 06:40 AM
Perhaps only peripherally related to the suit issue, at the start of the finals of the men's 800 free last night Rowdy commented that all eight finalists had swum personal bests to get there. I think he implied they swam PBs in the semis. I realize you aim for these big meets (taper well, train hard, etc), but how often does it happend that all eight finalists in any event swim personal bests to make the finals?

S

geochuck
July 30th, 2009, 07:33 AM
Back to Phelps.

What about his try at changing his crawl technique prior to the worlds. Could this be the reason for his very good but as most say his (poor???) 200 fr swim? May have been bad judgement by the coach or the swimmer? I did not like what I saw during the changing style period, it looked Helter Skelter.

I thought he did OK in the 200fr, he just was not at his best that day.

aquageek
July 30th, 2009, 08:54 AM
I think a point to consider along with the obsessive focus on the suits is the "Tiger effect," but we can call it the Phelps effect. It's pretty universally acknowledged that Tiger in the golf world raised the standards and play of those around him. I suspect that knowing Phelps is in your event makes you train harder. No one trains for second place.

Daaaave
July 30th, 2009, 10:18 AM
I thought Phelps was actually pretty gracious in getting silver. Just because he didn't hug it out with Biedermann over the laneline doesn't mean he's a sore loser. Emotional intensity is a prerequisite for most elite athletes (and for most people who want to be good at something). Great athletes hate to lose; why should Phelps act like it's all good when he was understandably pissed?

And as was said earlier, he gave a shout-out to Paul B. for a good race and was cool and collected by the time he spoke with Andrea. He has never publicly lashed out at Biedermann or any individuals, referring instead to the "situation" and referencing his own training and conditioning. And based on the pictures he was all smiles and handshakes on the podium.

Bowman clearly let off a little steam, but his subsequent clarification makes sense. His response was more to do with FINA still not being decisive about when a ruling goes into effect. There's a difference between, "let us know when you sort out your sh** and then we'll be ready to play" and "I'm taking my toys and going home."

aquageek
July 30th, 2009, 10:25 AM
Great athletes hate to lose; why should Phelps act like it's all good when he was understandably pissed?

Great athletes show great sportsmanship - it's part of being a great athlete. When did the sea change occur that says that great athletes are supposed to be asses when they lose? That certainly isn't being taught at our club.

Daaaave
July 30th, 2009, 10:35 AM
Great athletes show great sportsmanship - it's part of being a great athlete. When did the sea change occur that says that great athletes are supposed to be asses when they lose? That certainly isn't being taught at our club.

2006, I think it was February.

He wasn't an ass, he was stoic for two minutes and then sportsmanlike by the time he caught his breath. He didn't pull the classic goggle throw that gets age groupers in trouble with coaches, or smack the water. He accepted his silver medal on the podium, put his arm around Biedermann, and smiled for the camera. Seems like good sportsmanship to me.

knelson
July 30th, 2009, 10:36 AM
And what would be the reasoning?

I think it's from watching the swimmers that are swimming phenomenally at Worlds. Kukors and Biedermann, for example.

I was thinking of Masters. The huge increase in people swimming in suits such as the B70 in the last year hasn't really changed the complexion of who's swimming fast as far as I can tell. The people setting records and winning at Nationals before are continuing to do so. I just haven't seen any previous unknowns jumping to the top.

Tim L
July 30th, 2009, 10:37 AM
Dennis Baker suggested something interesting on Facebook today. He said he thinks the suits actually help the swimmers with the best technique the most. This is contrary to popular opinion which has been that the suit helps swimmers with poor technique and body position more. I tend to agree.

Someone posted a video of Biedermann from Beijing and also last fall when he broke the 200 Free SCM world record and it sure looked like his stroke changed fairly dramatically in 4 months. The angles are different, but it kind of looked like his body position improved significantly and as they commented in the 200 free at Worlds that it looks like he is swimming downhill (and right down the center line too). At Beijing he didn't look nearly the same to me and Biedermann's stroke at the Olympics didn't stick out as one of the better strokes in the finals. I think it seems like some swimmers get technique/body position benefits from the suits that are greater than others. I have heard many swimmers say that the larger swimmers get more benefit (Biedermann and Lin seem to fall into that category) whereas the Phelps, Lochte, Peirsol, etc. that are lean and streamlined already may have less of a benefit which explains why they are able to do well with or without the full tech suits. So, maybe the people that get the most benefit are the larger swimmers that have good technique and body position already, but just are dragged down somewhat by their size (naturally larger profile in the water). I guess the only way to find out is if FINA goes to the ban next year, but I am feeling that they are going to back track.

Zhang Lin's last 50 was just shocking yesterday. Has anyone ever swam a last 50 of an 800 or 1500 within 2 seconds of what he did in his last 50? Was he just toying with Ous the first 750?

Tim

aquageek
July 30th, 2009, 10:56 AM
I was thinking of Masters. The huge increase in people swimming in suits such as the B70 in the last year hasn't really changed the complexion of who's swimming fast as far as I can tell. The people setting records and winning at Nationals before are continuing to do so. I just haven't seen any previous unknowns jumping to the top.

Good point.

swimcat
July 30th, 2009, 11:28 AM
if you guys keep up with the german, french or italian, i will be forced to translate for the others. however, seeing how this is my job, a fee will be incurred. lmao

Frank Thompson
July 30th, 2009, 11:59 AM
Will Phelps WR in the 200 IM of 1:54.23 go down today? I say YES. But who will it be? Ryan Lochte or Lazlo Cseh? Both went low 1:55 yesterday just crusing. This should a great race today along with the 400 IM in a couple of days.

Warren
July 30th, 2009, 12:02 PM
Will Phelps WR in the 200 IM of 1:54.23 go down today? I say YES. But who will it be? Ryan Lochte or Lazlo Cseh? Both went low 1:55 yesterday just crusing. This should a great race today along with the 400 IM in a couple of days.

I say yes, maybe both of them. This is going to be a great race. Go Lochte!

Chris Stevenson
July 30th, 2009, 01:31 PM
Predictions for tomorrow's 100 fly? Who will win? What time?

My prediction: Phelps, 49.80.

Last year in the Olympics Phelps wore legs and Cavic a full body. If Phelps wears a full body -- presumably Cavic will wear a Jaked or Arena -- then maybe both suit-related improvements will be comparable. Phelps has already gone significantly faster than last year and he has fewer events than Beijing.

Phelps wore legs in the 200 fly, saying that his full body LZR felt tight in the shoulders. It will be interesting to see if he corrects that or not.

Oh, and Andrea Kramer's interview of Phelps today was as bad as any she has ever done (and that's saying something).

knelson
July 30th, 2009, 02:32 PM
I think this has already been mentioned, but if Phelps loses in the 100 fly he could very well leave Rome with only one individual world record to his name. And if FINA goes through with new suit rules as planned he may never set another world record. No wonder Bowman is lobbying for maintaining two sets of records!

I'd have to go back and check for sure, but I believe a world record was set in every single event that was contested in either semis or finals today.

Chris Stevenson
July 30th, 2009, 03:05 PM
I'd have to go back and check for sure, but I believe a world record was set in every single event that was contested in either semis or finals today.

Not the men's 200 back for sure, but I think you are right on the others.

Both 100 fly and 200 back tomorrow, that will be exciting. Irie looked like he was just cruising (but he looks like that even when he isn't).

I didn't realize Irie was so short; he looks like a boy among men. Even though Rowdy makes too much of it (as Jazz mentioned in another thread), he does have an amazing reaction time on the start. But his underwaters are pretty weak compared to his peers.

aquageek
July 30th, 2009, 03:11 PM
No wonder Bowman is lobbying for maintaining two sets of records!

Lobbying sounds a lot like whining.

KeithM
July 30th, 2009, 03:56 PM
I think it's from watching the swimmers that are swimming phenomenally at Worlds. Kukors and Biedermann, for example.
What was his rationale though? You mentioned that he actually felt it helped the swimmers with better technique more. Which as noted goes against the grain of thinking from many coaches and performance gurus (e.g. Jonty Skinner, Salo, Verhaeren, etc.) who feel it's the other way round. Heck the jelly roll postulation has been around since the dawn of the LZR.

BillS
July 30th, 2009, 04:29 PM
I didn't realize Irie was so short; he looks like a boy among men. Even though Rowdy makes too much of it (as Jazz mentioned in another thread), he does have an amazing reaction time on the start. But his underwaters are pretty weak compared to his peers.

It looked to me like Lochte took at least 2 or 3 more underwater dolphin kicks per turn than Irie. You've got to figure Irie and his coaches will fix that rather quickly. I think the little guys give up a lot more to the tall guys like Grevers on the surface than under water. I think Hill Taylor is pretty small, too, but he sure is fast under water.

ehoch
July 30th, 2009, 05:43 PM
Is there any chance those crazy Russians will upset the US tomorrow in the 800 Free relay ? The top 2 guys are certainly right there -- they had a blistering 400 Free relay and the Russians often come through with great relay swims (as do the Americans ...) ?

Chris Stevenson
July 31st, 2009, 01:14 PM
Took 51.07 to make finals in the 100 fly. Without Crocker present. That's just crazy.

I hope Phelps has more raw speed than he has shown so far. If not, he might not even make the podium. He can't keep depending on that last 25, not with this group.

The 200 fly really may be the only WR Phelps owns after this meet. Incredible.

aquageek
July 31st, 2009, 02:01 PM
If Phelps losses, there won't be enough Kleenex in all of Europe to stop the crying from Bowman.

hofffam
July 31st, 2009, 02:09 PM
Phelps may be laughing all the way to the bank with his Speedo sponsorship dollars but he is in danger of losing most of his world records.

Phelps already lost the 200 free, 200 IM, and 100 fly WRs. He has a chance to reclaim the 100 fly - but Cavic's semi WR was .4 faster than Phelps WR from three weeks ago.

Bowman's whining aside - I think it is ridiculous for the best swimmer of the last 20 years to lose most of his WRs this year because of suits.

USA-S may need to create a "last chance" event in LCM this year for Phelps and a few others to taper again to put on the best possible suit for posterity sake. Speedo can't even create a "record breaker" suit for this because they probably can't get FINA to approve it.

Mark Savage
July 31st, 2009, 05:30 PM
I predict both under 50 but Phelps takes the silver.

mikeh
July 31st, 2009, 07:30 PM
Cavic's semi WR was .4 faster than Phelps WR from three weeks ago.

Actually I think it was .2 faster than Phelps - 50.01 to 50.22 or somesuch.

thewookiee
July 31st, 2009, 08:02 PM
If Phelps losses, there won't be enough Kleenex in all of Europe to stop the crying from Bowman.

:rofl:

3strokes
July 31st, 2009, 10:21 PM
Pourquoi toute utilisation de ces personnes sont-elles d'autres langues ?

:):afraid::angel::applaud::bump::badday::bed::bitc hing::blush:

3strokes
July 31st, 2009, 10:26 PM
if you guys keep up with the german, french or italian, i will be forced to translate for the others. however, seeing how this is my job, a fee will be incurred. lmao

You forgot Spanish (and I didn't try Arabic)

rtodd
July 31st, 2009, 10:39 PM
Fly technique:
Breathing every stroke helps more in the 200 fly and I just to don't think that style is suited to the 100 for fast flat fly. Advantage Cavic.

Suit:
100% polyeurethane vs. LZR. Advantage Cavic.

Meet event load:
Advantage Cavic.

Chip on their shoulder:
Advantage Cavic.

Confidence:
Smashing the WR in the prelims. Advantage Cavic.

Conditioning:
No time off. Advantage Cavic.

Chance of Phelps winning? Not good. Am I pulling for him? You bet.

mikeh
August 1st, 2009, 09:01 AM
Back to Phelps.

What about his try at changing his crawl technique prior to the worlds. Could this be the reason for his very good but as most say his (poor???) 200 fr swim? May have been bad judgement by the coach or the swimmer? I did not like what I saw during the changing style period, it looked Helter Skelter.

I thought he did OK in the 200fr, he just was not at his best that day.

I don't know if Phelps' stroke change had anything to do with his "poor" 200 meter free. In fact I argue his 200 freestyle was excellent - he came within .3 of his time in Beijing. It just looked substandard because Paul Biedermann's swim qualifies as one of the greatest in history, akin to Mary T.'s butterfly world records at Brown Deer in 1981. However Biedermann's swims have a gigantic question mark attached to them because of the suit. To his credit Biedermann seems to recognize this and wants to race without it. But until he does we won't know how fast he can really go, nor how fast Phelps can really go.

Back to Phelps' stroke - I would have to say, from my vantage point, that Phelps' attempt to remodel his freestyle has been a failure thus far. He did it to have a faster 100 meter free, but his times have been slower than last year's. (47.5 at Beijing to 47.7 at WC I think.) He did not swim the 100 meter race at trials, a decision which confused me since he had spent so much time changing his stroke.

If I were Bowman I might have focused less on Phelps' stroke, and simply given Phelps more sprint and power training. His stroke may have evolved naturally as each pull became faster and more powerful. At least mine did - I used to have a classic high elbow freestyle. As I added sprint and power training, my stroke slowly evolved into a partial straight arm. I realize I am a subset of one, but it is a theory.

quicksilver
August 1st, 2009, 09:18 AM
Fly technique:
Breathing every stroke helps more in the 200 fly and I just to don't think that style is suited to the 100 for fast flat fly. Advantage Cavic.

Suit:
100% polyeurethane vs. LZR. Advantage Cavic.

Meet event load:
Advantage Cavic.

Chip on their shoulder:
Advantage Cavic.

Confidence:
Smashing the WR in the prelims. Advantage Cavic.

Conditioning:
No time off. Advantage Cavic.

Chance of Phelps winning? Not good. Am I pulling for him? You bet.

Great points Rob. Phelps knows this guy is gunning for him. That could make all the difference.

Like Peirsol, he may just dig deeper than ever before..

Mark Savage
August 1st, 2009, 01:00 PM
I predict both under 50 but Phelps takes the silver.

Great to be wrong here- go Phelps!

Daaaave
August 1st, 2009, 01:03 PM
G.O.A.T.!

Warren
August 1st, 2009, 01:10 PM
Phelps wore legs in Beijing. He wore a full body suit today.

Do think Phelps got a draft off of Cavic? Phelps added .2 in the 100 free but dropped .7 in the 100 fly. Those two dont match up.

Salnikov22
August 1st, 2009, 01:30 PM
http://vinovo.magnify.net/video/Phelps-vs-Cavic-100m-Butterfly
VIDEO: Phelps WR 100M butterfly and gold medal

JoeBob
August 1st, 2009, 01:33 PM
Phelps got it done in 49.82.
Cavic was out in 22.69 for his 49.95 but that wasn't enough to hold off Phelps.

gshaw
August 1st, 2009, 01:46 PM
Cavic was a class act with his comments after the race. Gracious. Would Phelps, "the man" as Cavic called him, have gone so fast without Cavic? No way. That Cavic is fast. Amazing race and all credit to Phelps. Amazing.

hofffam
August 1st, 2009, 01:49 PM
Phelps wore legs in Beijing. He wore a full body suit today.

Do think Phelps got a draft off of Cavic? Phelps added .2 in the 100 free but dropped .7 in the 100 fly. Those two dont match up.

Phelps has shown consistently since he started racing again that his fly is fast and his free is not. His free is ever so slightly off at all distances.

hofffam
August 1st, 2009, 01:52 PM
Cavic was a class act with his comments after the race. Gracious. Would Phelps, "the man" as Cavic called him, have gone so fast without Cavic? No way. That Cavic is fast. Amazing race and all credit to Phelps. Amazing.

Absolutely. Cavic was extremely classy.

tjrpatt
August 1st, 2009, 01:55 PM
Cavic went as fast as he could go. Phelps was just faster. I think that Phelps came out of the womb swimming fly. He doesn't have the endurance in the free like he had in Beijing but yet, Phelps is still able to break a world record in the endurance-driven 200 fly. He really moved his butt on the last 50 of the 100 fly.

hofffam
August 1st, 2009, 02:16 PM
Cavic went as fast as he could go. Phelps was just faster. I think that Phelps came out of the womb swimming fly. He doesn't have the endurance in the free like he had in Beijing but yet, Phelps is still able to break a world record in the endurance-driven 200 fly. He really moved his butt on the last 50 of the 100 fly.

If you look at the splits you see that Cavic was almost +5 on his 2nd 50 to Phelps +3. Cavic faded just as strongly as Phelps didn't.

Phelps was simply awesome.

pwolf66
August 1st, 2009, 02:52 PM
Phelps wore legs in Beijing. He wore a full body suit today.

Do think Phelps got a draft off of Cavic? Phelps added .2 in the 100 free but dropped .7 in the 100 fly. Those two dont match up.

Actually, yes, it does. His fly hasn't undergone any major stroke changes in the last 6 months?

His free? definately and I think that combined with the layoff, showed thru a little.

Chris Stevenson
August 1st, 2009, 02:59 PM
Actually, yes, it does. His fly hasn't undergone any major stroke changes in the last 6 months?

His free? definately and I think that combined with the layoff, showed thru a little.

Don't forget that in the 100 fly he wore legs only in Beijing but wore a full body today, which may well be a part of his 0.7 sec drop. And his fly does look better than his free, coupled with any additional sprint work he has been doing.

Cavic was out only 0.01 slower than his 50 time -- which won gold -- and didn't really die too badly at all. Phelps showed more speed than I thought he had in him in staying at his hip. A fun race to watch.

Allen Stark
August 1st, 2009, 03:02 PM
Did you see Phelps eyes before the race.The only word to discribe them is Predator.Man ,he was intense.

Lump
August 1st, 2009, 03:02 PM
http://vinovo.magnify.net/video/Phelps-vs-Cavic-100m-Butterfly
VIDEO: Phelps WR 100M butterfly and gold medal

Could have done without the chest beat and the suit thing (was he touting Speedo or USA?). Great swim nonetheless. I'd much rather be the chaser than the chased.

quicksilver
August 1st, 2009, 03:07 PM
And he did it using the "old fashioned" LZR. Inferior was the word they used.

Wonder how fast he would have gone in one of the better suits?

Mark Savage
August 1st, 2009, 06:02 PM
Both were under the winning time for the 100 free in the 76 Olympics. Amazing.

knelson
August 1st, 2009, 06:10 PM
Did you see Phelps eyes before the race.The only word to discribe them is Predator.Man ,he was intense.

I loved how the two of them were standing on opposite sides of the blocks so they could stare each other down.

Cavic did take the loss like a man, but I thought it was pretty lame when he was interviewed and he was all like "I don't see what I said that was so controversial" or whatever.

3strokes
August 1st, 2009, 09:04 PM
I loved how the two of them were standing on opposite sides of the blocks so they could stare each other down.

Cavic did take the loss like a man, >>>>>>>>> snip...............

What's important is what you said
Cavic did take the loss like a man
and congratulated Phelps, right there and then, in the water, (not in a follow-up interview.)

That Guy
August 1st, 2009, 09:09 PM
I loved how the two of them were standing on opposite sides of the blocks so they could stare each other down.

The same thing happened in Beijing. When asked about it afterward though, Phelps was unaware of it. Although he was facing Cavic, he was 100% focused on his race, probably looking downward at the blocks or whatever.

DPC
August 1st, 2009, 09:55 PM
Cavic did take the loss like a man

What else could he do? - he ran his mouth, whined (again) about Bejing and then got couldn't back it up with a win in the pool. Cavic seemed to have all the advantages, his prelim swim, he had a pretty easy meet schedule, and Phelps was more inconsistent than usual (the free stroke change experiment seems to have messed up all his free races).
And his post interview was pretty lame - I guess he couldn't take his own comments like a man - don't pull that bs about not saying what he said, or the lame "context" argument. No touch pad argument on this one.

Daaaave
August 1st, 2009, 10:36 PM
What's important is what you said
Cavic did take the loss like a man
and congratulated Phelps, right there and then, in the water, (not in a follow-up interview.)

So Cavic gets the sportsmanship credit over Phelps for shaking his hand in the water vs. a few minutes later? What about the cockamamie conspiracy theory about how the timing system didn't work for one heat out of the thousands at the Olympics? I'll take no handshake for 2 minutes over delusional pre-race conspiratorial rants if I'm shopping in the sportsmanship department. Yes, Cavic was gracious in defeat, but Phelps was gracious in victory and in the circus that preceded (motivated?) said victory.

I don't know if I'd want Phelps to date my daughter, but the hate for the guy baffles me. We wouldn't even be able to watch these WCs on network tv if it weren't for him. He congratulates his opponents, is loyal to his team and country and just proved to be the fiercest competitor the sport has seen in decades, maybe ever (has the pressure ever been greater on a swimmer?). He's raised the bar for the field, many of whom are faster now than they would've imagined themselves to be without him (see geek's comment about Tiger).

DPC
August 1st, 2009, 10:45 PM
I don't know if I'd want Phelps to date my daughter, but the hate for the guy baffles me.


The haters are out in force, swimming has seen a huge general public resurgance because of Phelps (and some others) so I don't get it.

And I know what male swimmers are like and I don't want them dating most people's daughters.

Couroboros
August 1st, 2009, 11:22 PM
What? What are male swimmers like? :(

Flurpo
August 2nd, 2009, 12:43 AM
:bow:

I'll admit it...I'm just in awe of Phelps...How did he do that? He just had nothing going for him and somehow he pulled that out. I've not seen many like him in my lifetime and guess what....He's not done yet.

Mark Savage
August 2nd, 2009, 01:56 AM
:bow:

I'll admit it...I'm just in awe of Phelps...How did he do that? He just had nothing going for him and somehow he pulled that out. I've not seen many like him in my lifetime and guess what....He's not done yet.

Same here. The 200 fly didn't surprise me, but I just didn't expect him to be able to pull off the 100. He has this almost amazing ability to will himself to win- like surpassing Crocker in 2004 and at Worlds in 2007, last yr with Cavic, and now this 49.8. Just incredible.

KeithM
August 2nd, 2009, 02:11 AM
And I know what male swimmers are like and I don't want them dating most people's daughters.Harsh. You've probably just been lurking around this forum too much.

selkie
August 2nd, 2009, 08:49 AM
Say what you will about Cavic, but it was the one race in Rome where people talked about the swimmers and not (for the most part) the suits. It really is too bad that they probably won't meet both rested in 2010 because there's a nice rivalry here that has sport/entertainment interest outside the usual swimming fans.

Tim L
August 2nd, 2009, 01:01 PM
My prediction: Phelps, 49.80.

Nice prediction.

orca1946
August 2nd, 2009, 01:39 PM
Yeah, now let's try it in the same suits ??!!

DPC
August 2nd, 2009, 08:47 PM
Harsh. You've probably just been lurking around this forum too much.

Probably correct - but then again I've seen/read nothing to dispell my knowledge of the brotherhood - of course I am the person your parents warned you about. :D

Thrashing Slug
August 3rd, 2009, 05:07 PM
So I finally watched the 100 Fly yesterday. I had been looking forward to it, and ignoring this forum so I wouldn't accidentally learn the result. Great race. Unbelievable that Phelps could pull that off, especially right after he collided into someone in the warmup pool and broke his goggles.

I enjoyed the rivalry and build-up to the race, with Cavic trash talking and whining about his loss in Beijing. I was relishing the prospect of watching Phelps beat him, even though I thought the chances of that were slim. But now, having seen the race and the way both swimmers handled themselves afterwards, I have an observation... Phelps is a dick. He's a sore loser and a graceless winner. His apelike antics in the pool were an embarrassment. Thumping his chest, sitting on the lane line and shoving his ass in Cavic's lane, refusing to look at Cavic and acknowledge him when Cavic congratulated him. Very disappointing.

After that race I am now more of a Cavic fan than a Phelps fan, not that I was ever really a Phelps fan to begin with. Phelps is sort of like a donkey with a preternatural talent for playing Beethoven. It can play the notes with amazing skill, but it still brays like a donkey and sh*ts everywhere. You have to marvel at the phenomenon, but it's hard to admire the donkey.

I also watched the 200 free where Phelps got his ass handed to him by Biederman, who destroyed him in every aspect of that race.. start, turns, final kick, etc. Phelp's mommy shaking her head with crossed arms was a sad spectacle. I seriously doubt that he lost because of the suit. Even if that was all, it would be utter hypocrisy to whine about it, since the US had the Lazer in '08 and the Germans had to wear crappy Adidas suits.

3strokes
August 3rd, 2009, 10:19 PM
So Cavic gets the sportsmanship credit over Phelps for shaking his hand in the water vs. a few minutes later? What about the cockamamie conspiracy theory about how the timing system didn't work for one heat out of the thousands at the Olympics?

We're not talking about Conspiracies or last year's race (THEY may well be, but we are not). Yes, we're talking about sportsmanship in the pool (competitors in the same water.......) or on the court (Tennis.......net.......handshake.......then trophy presentation then interviews). I want to see the natural and spontaneous sportsmanship of the athlete, not what their P.R. person tells them to say at the ceremony or interviews.

I guess somebody missed the part where we try to teach our kids (and ourselves) some manners in that, after the race, you shake the hands of the two swimmers on either side of you (or to only one side, if one has sandbagged well) regardless of the result.......

Somewhere else someone said that now the Phelps haters are coming out of the woodwork, or some such. Where does my hatred of Phelps manifest itself? I don't hate the guy at all. I admire the pure athlete in him.

gshaw
August 4th, 2009, 12:03 AM
He's a sore loser and a graceless winner. His apelike antics in the pool were an embarrassment. Thumping his chest, sitting on the lane line and shoving his ass in Cavic's lane, refusing to look at Cavic and acknowledge him when Cavic congratulated him. Very disappointing.

Some of this post was really too hard on Phelps (we can get pretty carried away with our imagery, and posting is very easy, too easy). But Thrashing Slug ("thrashing slug"??!..I still don't quite grasp this aspect of forums) makes a good point. First, I want to say that I think Phelps proved himself to be an even better and more amazing swimmer than I thought he was...and I already thought he was the best ever. Coming back on Cavic in that 100 fly...well, I thought before the race he was going to lose. He was amazing. But I think he needs to respect his competitors more than he does. Cavic did needle him prior to the race but it helped Phelps focus. At the end....the race is OVER and the guy next to him swam faster than ANYONE has ever swum the 100 fly ever except for Phelps himself. He should have congratulated Cavic on a great swim. Instead he got carried away with the thumping etc. And after the 200 free he didn't even shake Biedermann's hand and B'man was very gracious and generous in all his post race remarks (and he broke the old record on the relay too). Biedermann is good, real good. Phelps probably does need to get some perspective, not lose his amazing competitive edge, but be able to appreciate and respect his competitors more. Hey, I don't like it that when Tiger Woods hits bad shots he throws his clubs (admittedly, golf is a game designed for mental breakdowns...but if you golf for a living you should be ready for it). When I see that I wonder why he never learned the etiquette of golf, and when I see Phelps miss the sporting opportunity to congratulate his opponent after an event I think he is less for that. They even congratulate each other on MMA after a match. Cavic was a wonderful foil for Phelps; he helped him reach a greatness maybe even he didn't know he had.

Muppet
August 4th, 2009, 12:36 AM
They even congratulate each other on MMA after a match.

Despite kicking and beating the crap out of each other, fighters of all kinds (wrestling, tae kwon do, karate, boxing, etc...) have a great deal of RESPECT for each other. You almost always see some form of acknowledgement before and after a fight.

Phelps was born with talent and a good body - but respect is something that needs to be taught. One would think that his mother, a school principal, would know a bit about that, but her reaction to Biedermann's thumping of her son in the 200 free was one of disgust and disdain. Yes, this guy just beat her baby, but really...

DPC
August 4th, 2009, 11:02 AM
One would think that his mother, a school principal, would know a bit about that, but her reaction to Biedermann's thumping of her son in the 200 free was one of disgust and disdain


Do we know exactly what she was reacting to and why?? Could she have been dissapointed that he lost the race - soundly - and that his time away, the suspension, and lack of longer term focused training was the reason he did poorly (by comparison) - could she have been more dissapointed in her son? I don't recall an interview with her where she took any shots at Biederman. His sisters reaction, well that's another thing.

Biederman was extremely gracious and Phelps was not after the 200 free. But Cavic did a lot more than needle him. And a lot of people were ready to bury Phelps after the 200 free - the 200 fly notwithstanding.

As for hating him, there are many who are not Phelps fans for a variety of reasons and while respecting his abilities, may be tired of his winning most of the time - any one who dominates a sport experiences that (Tiger, Federer, the Williams sisters). Is he arrogant vs confident? - as Larry Bird said "it ain't bragging if you can back it up". And I have yet to see Phelps shoot his mouth off before any meet - and if he believes in his own mind that he's the best and works to keep that edge - isn't that one of the first rules of dominating your sport/job?? Personally, I want Lochte and Piersol to rule the backstroke and Lochte to vie for the IM records. Even if just for variety and national pride and competetion.

Is any athlete a poster child for excellent behavior 100% of the time – NO. If you thought Phelps showed poor sportsmanship at the end of the race – fair criticism – I think referring to him as a donkey and apelike and a dick is a bit extreme - would you have referred to Muhammad Ali in the same manner after what he did and said about the second fight with Liston? I don't recall that ending with a lot of love.

selkie
August 4th, 2009, 12:12 PM
I didn't mind Phelp's celebration, but then I actually like it when swimmers show big demonstrative emotion after a race instead of an almost 'yeah I gotta remember to smile' smile. Cesar Cielo's taken criticism for celebrating big in the water after a great race as well. Hope Cielo never tunes it down because I like how he utterly wears his heart of his sleeve.

hofffam
August 4th, 2009, 01:30 PM
First of all I don't care in the least about Phelps' mother. I am sick of seeing her on TV. She will be the most biased observer in the stadium. I don't care what she does for a living, what she cooked for Phelps when he was kid, nor how many early mornings she got up to drive him to the pool. Michael surely appreciates all of that.

I have no problem with Phelps' reaction after the race. Elite athletes are often fueled by emotion. Phelps was surrounded by doubters before that race - including me. But he swam an astounding race and showed the world once again he is a dazzling swimmer.

But I liked Jimmy Connors and John McEnroe too. I don't like showboats or ridiculously selfish athletes like T.O.. But I have no problem with Phelps letting loose with some emotion and bravado. Phelps isn't as mature as we Masters swimmers. That's OK with me.

Chris Stevenson
August 4th, 2009, 01:51 PM
Phelps carried on a bit, but he was pretty pumped. My theory: it is all part of his transformation into a sprinter. They wear their hearts on their sleeves and act a little crazy.

It is just personal preference, but I've always liked the "act like you've been there" types rather than the Track & Field sprinters. Where even the silver and bronze modelists strut around as if they've just invented the cure for cancer.

I also didn't mind Cavic's pre-race comments. They seemed honest (ie, reflecting what he thought) rather than the usual pre-race/game platitudes. It also made for better entertainment.

Daaaave
August 4th, 2009, 02:32 PM
Anyone who says they're a bigger fan of Cavic than of Phelps based on sportsmanship obviously didn't hear him running his mouth before the race. It's one thing when Cavic says, "I can beat the guy," another entirely when he said "I could be in court right now." Unless he gets credit for only mentioning that he has the option to file a lawsuit disputing the Beijing results and not actually suing. What a sport.

Phelps was prodded, primed and provoked by the media to respond to Cavic's talk, and all he ever said was "no comment," or "I'll do my talking in the pool." Which he did, and now gets vilified for celebrating a barrier-breaking world record victory about which most vocalized doubt.

Is Phelps the best sport in the pool? No. Was Cavic gracious in defeat? Sure. But given the choice between an athlete who keeps quiet until the results are in, then reacts to the results, vs. one who yammers about what the results are going to be, then is forced into diminutive smiles after the results show otherwise, I'll take the former.

lefty
August 4th, 2009, 02:47 PM
Wrestling is an interesting phenomenon: The entire popularity of the sport is based on heroes and villains that have been completely manufactured and is set against a backdrop of unauthentic athletic competition. So I'll throw this out there: Does Mike Cavic really think that he beat Phelps in Beijing? Or was he just trying to lay the ground work for a one on one dual with Phelps?

mctrusty
August 4th, 2009, 03:07 PM
Wrestling is an interesting phenomenon: The entire popularity of the sport is based on heroes and villains that have been completely manufactured and is set against a backdrop of unauthentic athletic competition. So I'll throw this out there: Does Mike Cavic really think that he beat Phelps in Beijing? Or was he just trying to lay the ground work for a one on one dual with Phelps?

Cavic did mention something at the end of the postrace interview about being ok with wearing the black hat if it helped stir interest in the sport of swimming.

bekalc
August 4th, 2009, 05:54 PM
Is Phelps the best sport in the pool? No. Was Cavic gracious in defeat? Sure. But given the choice between an athlete who keeps quiet until the results are in, then reacts to the results, vs. one who yammers about what the results are going to be, then is forced into diminutive smiles after the results show otherwise, I'll take the former.

See I have to disagree here. I think athletes talking some smack before the meet is in a lot of times in good fun. I didn't see Cavic getting really personal (and I think he has an argument about touching first but that's neither here nor there and shouldn't have been mentioned) I dont' like it when smack becomes so and so is no good at this. But Cavic's smack is all in good fun...

I think it's way worse when someone cannot be gracious in defeat or winning... Although I didnt' mind the tug on the shirt that much. However, not shaking Biedermann's hand was tactless. Not shaking Biedermann's hand is way worse than anything Cavic ever said about Phelps.

KeithM
August 4th, 2009, 06:08 PM
It wasn't captured on TV but Phelps did shake Biedermann's hand as they exited the pool.

3strokes
August 4th, 2009, 09:52 PM
It wasn't captured on TV but Phelps did shake Biedermann's hand as they exited the pool.

Thank you for letting us know.

bekalc
August 5th, 2009, 03:08 AM
It wasn't captured on TV but Phelps did shake Biedermann's hand as they exited the pool.

My bad. But I guess I'm just trying to say is depending on the circumstances, I don't think a little ribbing is bad. And I actually in someways cannot blame Cavic for pointing out that Phelps could use the suits if he wanted to, because look at what happened when Biedermann beat Phelps. It became all about the suits. Not said directly by Phelps, but certainly by others.

When I don't like smack is when it becomes extremely bad. For example I remember in another sport I watch gymnastics. Paul Hamm a year ago was saying some things about Yang Wei which went out of line. He literally said well Yang is going to be under more pressure than me, because who knows what the Chinese government will do to him, if he doesn't bring home the Gold. It was quite ridiculous comment actually because we'll Paul Hamm knew quite well that Yang and the entire Chinese bombed big time in Athens me and women. And well, they all lived to see the next day.

Several of the bombing gymnasts were at the time Hamm spoke attending some of China's top universities. If you have moderate success as an athlete in Chin (like win a world cup title in bars for example, you get huge points off your admission test to China's top universities.

I guess I'm saying is long as the smack talk is fair and not completely out of line. I don't see the big deal. Of course though with Phelps you might want to think about the dangers of getting him fired up and angry. Biedermann played Phelps a lot better than Cavic did.

knelson
August 5th, 2009, 10:54 AM
When I don't like smack is when it becomes extremely bad. For example I remember in another sport I watch gymnastics. Paul Hamm a year ago was saying some things about Yang Wei which went out of line.

I'm not a big fan of Paul Hamm ever since he won the all-around gold in 2004 due to a scoring error but still acted like he deserved to win.

gshaw
August 5th, 2009, 12:08 PM
In the AP story of July 28, this is what we find:

While Biedermann hung on the lane rope, thrusting his right hand in the air, Phelps stared at the scoreboard for a few seconds before heading off in the opposite direction, not even bothering to shake hands with the swimmer who had just handed him his first big individual loss since July 30, 2005.

The article also quotes Phelps, after his loss and the topic of the tech suits in the air:

"It's going to be fun next year," he said, "when swimming is back to swimming." (my emphasis)

Huh? Now, Keith M. says that Phelps shook B's hand even though it wasn't on TV....nice to hear that but who saw it? Keith? And assuming Phelps did I wish they caught it on camera, for Phelps's sake.

I don't want to be hard on Phelps. The guy proved in his race against Cavic that he is the most gifted and intense competitive swimmer we have seen in, well, in my life anyway. He is simply the best. But to say "next year when swimming is back to swimming" after he lost sounds like whining and it is ungenerous to Biedermann. When Phelps had the LZR with its polyurethane patches and was kicking ass in Beijing, did he consider that "swimming"? Of course.

So, he said and did a couple of things that a more mature person would not do or say. Not such a big deal, but no point in our glossing over it because of his phenomenal ability as a swimmer. And why do I care? Good question. I think because at some fundamental level we idolize these guys because their athletic ability is both beautiful and stunning. I want them to be both athletic gods and paragons of virtue. It's unrealistic but I saw a good bit of that at Rome (e.g. Stephannie Rice towards Kukors who just smashed her world record). I think Phelps learned a hell of a lot at this meet and will grow from it. His coach....? Well, I don't know.

Allen Stark
August 5th, 2009, 12:43 PM
Before the 100 Fly Phelps was incredibly intense and focused,I don't think he can just turn it off when his hand hit the wall.By the medals ceremony he was more gracious.

geochuck
August 5th, 2009, 03:53 PM
This shaking hand thing does not mean anything. If you get beat then shake the guy's hand that beat you, what are you really saying under your breath.

Thrashing Slug
August 8th, 2009, 03:23 PM
Sportsmanship in the pool does matter. These athletes are representing our country and it would be nice to see them conduct themselves accordingly. If they're going to trash talk or gloat, I would rather see that happen in a press conference ('Quit whining, bitch. The clock doesn't lie'.) than roid rage in the pool. Once you enter the venue of competition, rules of sportsmanship should be honored. Of course this is just my spectator's opinion.

Thrashing Slug
August 8th, 2009, 03:26 PM
I'm not a big fan of Paul Hamm ever since he won the all-around gold in 2004 due to a scoring error but still acted like he deserved to win.

Me either. I remember that, he acted like a real dick. I enjoyed watching him lose on Ninja Warrior. :D

funkyfish
August 8th, 2009, 08:17 PM
Me either. I remember that, he acted like a real dick. I enjoyed watching him lose on Ninja Warrior. :D

I'm not familiar with his stats, but most gymnasts are fairly short, right? Ninja Warrior is not a contest geared for short people since many of the challenges involve jumping and reaching for things to climb up/over. I didn't see that particular episode, but wonder if he went into it too sure of himself?

I'd also be curious to see how some sprinters or middle distance swimmers would do at Ninja Warrior.

selkie
August 9th, 2009, 12:05 AM
Short is actually not too awful on Ninja Warrior unless you're talking like 5'2" short because so many of the obstacles, especially on the third stage, have a lot to do with strength-weight ratio. The cross the ledge using only your fingertips obstacle that was a third stage staple for many tournaments put the bigger competitors at a significant disadvantage. I couldn't get heights on the Sasuke All-Stars, but Jordan Jovtchev is listed as 5'7" and he's one of the few guys ever to make it past the first three rounds.

As for swimmers, I can remember a handful of Japanese ones showing up over the years with moderate success. In terms of US-based elite swimmers, so many of them are utter klutzes on land, but how about Erik Vendt? Not too talk, can probably be talked into any number of crazy things.