PDA

View Full Version : Omega says Cavic touched first



dwlovell
August 5th, 2009, 02:01 PM
I searched and couldn't find this posted, but I could have missed it.

Anyways, its pretty interesting because the official basically says Cavic touched first, but didn't "push" and slid, while Phelps pushed with force, etc etc. (He talks about this right at halfway through the video)
http://www.swimchampions.com/slog/detail/183/

Personally I think you have to live with however the time system works as long as it is functional. If it was functional and Cavic didn't press hard enough, its tough luck.

The only alternative is to just present a "tie" when you are within the margin of error of the equipment.

ehoch
August 5th, 2009, 02:20 PM
Wow - I always thought Cavic was a bit crazy ... but this is interesting.

Should they go to instant replay for swimming decisions like this ?

I am mean - the winner should be the one first to the wall, and apparently that is Cavic.

dwlovell
August 5th, 2009, 02:26 PM
Wow - I always thought Cavic was a bit crazy ... but this is interesting.

Should they go to instant replay for swimming decisions like this ?

I am mean - the winner should be the one first to the wall, and apparently that is Cavic.

They could also just have a swim-off with just those 2 swimmers. I tied for 3rd place in my District Championship 50 free SCY meet early in high school and we had to swim off at the end of the meet. 3rd place was important b/c that was the cutoff to get to the State Championship meet. Even at a small meet, it was pretty exciting, I can only imagine what an Olympic swim-off would be like.

I dont remember if when I tied, they were using tenths or hundreths of a second, but the time board showed the same time for both of us. By that standard, Phelps would still have won since his time was better on the time board.

knelson
August 5th, 2009, 02:28 PM
I don't see how this reconciles with the photos of the finish taken from underwater. In the photos we can see Phelps touching the wall while Cavic has not. Unless Cavic somehow touched and rebounded it seems that Phelps touched first to me.

dwlovell
August 5th, 2009, 02:31 PM
I don't see how this reconciles with the photos of the finish taken from underwater. In the photos we can see Phelps touching the wall while Cavic has not. Unless Cavic somehow touched and rebounded it seems that Phelps touched first to me.

Personally I think it was Phelps, but I have looked at all the pictures and I dont think any of them are close enough to show fingers clearly touching a pad. I think you could argue on any of them that either swimmer's fingers are an inch away or a half inch away or touching, it needs to be closer.

scyfreestyler
August 5th, 2009, 02:31 PM
The 100 fly that just won't die. :dedhorse:

SLOmmafan
August 5th, 2009, 02:36 PM
Unless the timing pad "malfunctions" - which there was no direct evidence of - the general rule has always been that you need to touch the pad and stop it. I have had coaches tell me from an 8 year old "age-grouper" on that you need to make certain you touch the pad weight adequate force (which honestly is not that much, even with the old school equipment). I honestly don't feel one bit bad for Cavic - he failed to do what almost every competitive swimmer learns from early on.

knelson
August 5th, 2009, 02:39 PM
I also remember at the time that the Serbians filed a protest, but agreed that Phelps touched first after watching the video of the finish.

lefty
August 5th, 2009, 02:42 PM
At D3 nats in 1998 a backstroker touched first in his heat, but missed the pad because it didn't extend to the corner of the lane where the swimmer touched. The coach protested but lost because a rule was written to describe the exact situation (you have to touch the touch pad). I don't know, but I would be surprised if there wasn't a rule clarifying the Phelps/ Cavic situation too.

lefty
August 5th, 2009, 02:54 PM
I think these two photos were take .01 or .02 apart:

(the bottom one of two obviously)

http://olympics.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/08/16/the-phelps-cavic-photo-finish/

And

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/0808/oly.phelps.sequence/content.5.html

Are Cavic's finger tips on the wall on the NY Times blog photo? I cannot say yes for certain, but I am certain that Phelps is NOT touching the wall in that photo. In the SI phot Phleps hand is depressing the pad while Cavic's is not.

aquageek
August 5th, 2009, 03:06 PM
This is crazy. If a 6 year old that weighs 45 pounds can set off the timing pad doing some semblance of a stroke I find it hard to believe a full blown 200+ pound man moving at a high speed can't.

mctrusty
August 5th, 2009, 03:25 PM
I also remember at the time that the Serbians filed a protest, but agreed that Phelps touched first after watching the video of the finish.

I actually thought it was Mike Bottom who filed the protest on Cavic's behalf. I'm going to be lazy and not look that up right now, though.

lefty
August 5th, 2009, 03:42 PM
I actually thought it was Mike Bottom who filed the protest on Cavic's behalf. I'm going to be lazy and not look that up right now, though.

that was the incorrect rumor started by some US coaches.

ande
August 5th, 2009, 04:03 PM
it was proper for Bottom to protest it, it was a questionable call, all the photos and videos I've seen were too close to call. Cavic was losing momentum & speed going into the wall with his long glide finish, he did lift his head & didn't SDK.

The touch pads need around 3 kg of pressure per square centimenter to trigger, it's entirely possible that cavic touched first or tied but didn't create enough pressure to trigger the pad.

Cavic needed to hit the wall better, one extra SDK off the turn or 3 or 4 short strokes to line up the final touch would have made all the diffence

gobears
August 5th, 2009, 04:12 PM
Unless the timing pad "malfunctions" - which there was no direct evidence of - the general rule has always been that you need to touch the pad and stop it. I have had coaches tell me from an 8 year old "age-grouper" on that you need to make certain you touch the pad weight adequate force (which honestly is not that much, even with the old school equipment). I honestly don't feel one bit bad for Cavic - he failed to do what almost every competitive swimmer learns from early on.

Exactly. Why is this even an issue?

pwolf66
August 5th, 2009, 04:17 PM
I'm with Ande on this one. The current generation of touch pads require a specific force level to be triggered. If it's the same for everyone (i.e all the pads are operating in identical manner) then the finish requirements are the same. Since the race is decided by times derived from the pads, then it doesn't matter when someone touches the wall, it matters when they trigger the pad.

A lot of discussion has occurred around the concept that Cavic's fingers contacted the wall first. Looking at all the photos and slow speed footage, I have absolutely no trouble believing that Cavic's fingers were in contact with the wall first.

But to quote Bill Murray: It just doesn't matter!!!!

In Olympic Swimming the winner is determined by the swimmer who triggers the electronic timing system first NOT who touches the wall first.

Even my 8 yo swimmers know to drive into the touch pad hard.

Get over it, so you touched the wall first? Other than you and your coach, who really cares, you didn't finish hard so you came up .01 seconds short.

And had ANOTHER chance to prove you were faster and didn't get it done.

Let it go, just let it go.

dwlovell
August 5th, 2009, 04:36 PM
I'm with Ande on this one. The current generation of touch pads require a specific force level to be triggered. If it's the same for everyone (i.e all the pads are operating in identical manner) then the finish requirements are the same. Since the race is decided by times derived from the pads, then it doesn't matter when someone touches the wall, it matters when they trigger the pad.

A lot of discussion has occurred around the concept that Cavic's fingers contacted the wall first. Looking at all the photos and slow speed footage, I have absolutely no trouble believing that Cavic's fingers were in contact with the wall first.

But to quote Bill Murray: It just doesn't matter!!!!

In Olympic Swimming the winner is determined by the swimmer who triggers the electronic timing system first NOT who touches the wall first.

Even my 8 yo swimmers know to drive into the touch pad hard.

Get over it, so you touched the wall first? Other than you and your coach, who really cares, you didn't finish hard so you came up .01 seconds short.

And had ANOTHER chance to prove you were faster and didn't get it done.

Let it go, just let it go.

In general I agree and I think the gist of the video was even that Cavic and his coach and everyone that saw it agreed that the final result was the legal one, even if they do think Cavic "touched" first.

That said, you can't blame fans on both sides for wanted to figure out who "really" won, especially with such focus on the number of golds Phelps won, etc. If Cavic continues to be defeated by Phelps, then the fans will get their answer, despite what the agreed "legal" result is.

miwoodar
August 5th, 2009, 05:12 PM
I don't know. It always looked fairly clear to me that Phelps hit the wall first.

Here's the famous shot...
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/0808/oly.phelps.sequence/content.5.html

And here's the close up of Cavic's hands...
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/0808/oly.phelps.sequence/content.6.html

Regardless, you've gotta strike the pad hard enough to stop the clock.

Warren
August 5th, 2009, 05:13 PM
from the race club boards


Hi Kirk,
Never new I was an official anything. Yes I can point out Serbia on a map. I think the question is how credible is this person who is talking to millions possibly billions of viewers and calls me by name and then says i am an official of Serbia.....when I am wearing "Croatia" in big red letters on my back? This is the type of brainless media that the world is listening to.

It is sad how I know Rowdy Gains personally and he knows of the many athletes I have and am coaching. He never mentions me except in an attempt at being funny at my and my families expense. I am sorry for him.

When i talked to Mark (Schubert) after it was over and the video was reviewed he said "I would have done the same thing". ....as a matter of fact he did. He actually went in and looked at the Video before the Serbians got there. He also had questions about the finish. I believe that he too only wanted fairness to play-out.

The difference is in order to see the video they made the Serbians file a protest and pay $100US in cash. Then they officially reviewed it and officially said that they saw Phelps touch first on the video. They did not let the Serbians see the video till this morning (a day later). How easy would it have been to just show the head of the Serbian delegation the video as they did the US official?

A precedent was set at the 2001 World Championships in Fukuoka Japan. There were over 30 protested finishes that went to video review. This including one by the US that ended up in court and US won an appeal using the video. Did any of the informed media mention this? No they said that the timing system never failed, this is not true


It is amazing the lies the media gets away with.

I never told Mike he won, I hugged him and told him he swam a great race and that i was very proud of him!

I never said anything to Michael except good luck when I saw him before the race.

We were forced to file a protest. Nobody wanted to. As a matter of fact it was only as a result of the reaction of the crowd and the swimmers on the deck and stands as they looked at the over water video and saw what appeared to be Cavic's fingertips on the wall before Michael came around for his touch, that convinced us to go and do a check.

Bob Bowmen thanked me for having it reviewed. He knew it was better for Michael to have it cleared, as the conspiracy theorist were already spinning their tales.

Mike Cavic is happy to tears with his medal and I am proud to have coach him to such a great swim.

So if you want Kirk you can forward this around or not, I am ready to come home, where ever that is,

Take care,
Mike

Fight media mediocrity and forward this to your world.

--- On Sat, 8/16/08, kirk wrote:

Mike,

How does it feel to be described as a Serbian official? Do you even know where Serbia is located? At least you finally got your name mentioned during the Olympic swimming events. Anyway, congratulations on being named the Michigan coach. It is definitely an opportunity you earned. So my one peice of advice - don't blow it. Looking forward to talking with you when you get back.

knelson
August 5th, 2009, 05:26 PM
By the way, I'm not Kirk quoted in Warren's post.

Seems to me Mike Bottom agrees that Phelps touched first.

I've never seen a single still photo of video where Cavic appears to touch first. Show me that and then we can start discussing sensitivity of the touchpad.

ehoch
August 5th, 2009, 05:56 PM
So you guys are basically saying:

- The Omega representative is making the whole thing up to make Omega look bad ????

- Even if he touched the wall first, he did not deserve to win because he was gliding into the wall and had a poor finish and he is not American and his name is not Phelps

The reason for the timing system requiring 3 pounds is so that water splash will not cause the timing system to go off. Obviously he lost the race -- but I think his fingertips were at the wall first -- In the SI picture where they claim he did not touch wall - it seems that his right hand fingertips are actually at the wall.

They lost the protest, because the rules are clear - the timing system determines the winner - but if they were using track rules of a photo finish, we may have a different answer

gobears
August 5th, 2009, 06:03 PM
So you guys are basically saying:

- The Omega representative is making the whole thing up to make Omega look bad ????

- Even if he touched the wall first, he did not deserve to win because he was gliding into the wall and had a poor finish and he is not American and his name is not Phelps

The reason for the timing system requiring 3 pounds is so that water splash will not cause the timing system to go off. Obviously he lost the race -- but I think his fingertips were at the wall first -- In the SI picture where they claim he did not touch wall - it seems that his right hand fingertips are actually at the wall.

They lost the protest, because the rules are clear - the timing system determines the winner - but if they were using track rules of a photo finish, we may have a different answer

Are you going to argue that every other swimmer in the world who has lost a (touchpad-timed) race by hundredths of a second might have actually "touched first" and, therefore, might have won? What is the point of this argument???

lefty
August 5th, 2009, 06:09 PM
I've never seen a single still photo of video where Cavic appears to touch first. Show me that and then we can start discussing sensitivity of the touchpad.

I think the NY Times photo (not the SI photo) shows Cavic touched the wall first. As I said, I think that photo was taken .01 or .02 before the SI photo.

ehoch
August 5th, 2009, 06:13 PM
What is the point of this argument???

The point is that "whoever touches the wall first should win" - not whoever triggers some touchpad mechanism. Isn't that the point of racing ? You against me - first one to the wall wins.

knelson
August 5th, 2009, 06:18 PM
I agree with ehoch that whoever touches first should win. I just don't see any photos that show Cavic touching first. To me it doesn't look like Cavic is touching the wall in the NY Times photo.

quicksilver
August 5th, 2009, 06:19 PM
Didn't everyone from across the globe stare at these photos and agree that Phelps' fingers touched before Cavics?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/0808/oly.phelps.sequence/content.5.html

gobears
August 5th, 2009, 06:20 PM
The point is that "whoever touches the wall first should win" - not whoever triggers some touchpad mechanism. Isn't that the point of racing ? You against me - first one to the wall wins.

Good luck with that. I'd much rather rely on touchpads than the human eye when it comes to close finishes.

knelson
August 5th, 2009, 06:26 PM
Good luck with that. I'd much rather rely on touchpads than the human eye when it comes to close finishes.

We wouldn't need to rely on the human eye--we could rely on high speed cameras. Perhaps for any finish less than .02 or something they should automatically go to the cameras. Sort of like replay cameras in other sports, the cameras would have to show irrefutable evidence of one swimmer touching first to overrule the timing system.

edit: The cameras would also need to be triggered to record one frame every .01 second since that's the agreed upon resolution for timing in swimming. You definitely wouldn't want to use the cameras to break ties, for example.

ehoch
August 5th, 2009, 06:30 PM
I am a little puzzled how the Omega rep seems so convinced - but I am somewhat speculating that he would not make this up unless he had clear evidence. The pictures we have seen simply can not tell you clearly ...they do a photo finish with high speed cameras in track - you trust the "eye" in a sport that is a lot faster than swimming.

ehoch
August 5th, 2009, 06:32 PM
Since we are just talking and all that - any speculation on what would be in place already if Phelps would have been the one "maybe touching first, but not triggering the touch pad" ....

knelson
August 5th, 2009, 06:35 PM
they do a photo finish with high speed cameras in track

Of course track finishes are harder to judge because any part of your body could cross the line first. Same technically goes for swimming, but for all intents and purposes it's your fingers that touch first 99.9% of the time.

KeithM
August 5th, 2009, 06:41 PM
The same man in the interview said several months ago there was no way to tell from the visual evidence available who touched first. He only presented a scenario where Cavic could theoretically have touched first. Where is the evidence that he did?

Allen Stark
August 5th, 2009, 06:41 PM
In that NY Times photo I see space between Cavic's fingers and the wall.

Warren
August 5th, 2009, 07:33 PM
Keep in mind these photos came out like a week after the race.

Justin Ritter
August 5th, 2009, 07:59 PM
Of course track finishes are harder to judge because any part of your body could cross the line first. Same technically goes for swimming, but for all intents and purposes it's your fingers that touch first 99.9% of the time.

For some twisted reason the mental image of track using touchpads on a wall to judge finishes made me chuckle. Could you imagine the finish of the 100 meter dash into a brick wall :)

Mark Savage
August 5th, 2009, 08:19 PM
Phelps touched first and this photo is indisputable proof:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/0808/oly.phelps.sequence/content.5.html

Zero in on Cavic's fingers with photoshop and you can see he has yet to touch the wall.

thewookiee
August 5th, 2009, 09:09 PM
Phelps touched first and this photo is indisputable proof:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/0808/oly.phelps.sequence/content.5.html

Zero in on Cavic's fingers with photoshop and you can see he has yet to touch the wall.

Doesn't look indisputable.

ehoch
August 5th, 2009, 09:11 PM
Quote from the Omega rep "it is for sure, the video also shows it, that Cavic touched the pad before Phelps" ... this is a pretty clear statement and what possible reason could he have to make this up ??

I also looked at the SI picture number 5 of 8 and enlarged it ... I think Cavic's finger is already touching the wall .. but I am not sure.

pwolf66
August 5th, 2009, 09:59 PM
So how does would using photographic evidence work? Cavic would get the Gold but his official time would be .01 slower than Phelps? Add .01 to Phelps' time and apply a tie-break? Subtract .02 from Cavic's time? Add .02 to Phelps' time?

What a can of worms. Using track is an apples/oranges argument. Track finish rules are any part of the head or torso crossing OVER the finish line thru the air in any manner. That would not work for swimming. Swimming has specific finish rules for each stroke and because of this requires a defined, finite barrier. Ain't nobody swimming thru the wall. Until some sort of laser timing system is created, touchpads are the best system we have.

knelson
August 5th, 2009, 10:17 PM
Frame six is a blowup of frame 5 and it doesn't look like Cavic has touched to me
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/0808/oly.phelps.sequence/content.6.html
I'm not sure what people are seeing here that I'm not. I realize it's difficult to tell, but it certainly looks like he hasn't touched yet. Even if it did show Cavic touching it certainly doesn't show he touched before Phelps since Phelps is clearly touching the wall in that same frame.

As far as the Omega guy, who knows? Maybe he's a crackpot? If he's seen video showing Cavic touching first I'd like to see it. Seems to me the Serbians delegation that filed a protest was satisfied Phelps won when they were shown the tape after the race. Again, if there's evidence that Cavic touched first, let's see it.

gobears
August 5th, 2009, 10:50 PM
So how does would using photographic evidence work? Cavic would get the Gold but his official time would be .01 slower than Phelps? Add .01 to Phelps' time and apply a tie-break? Subtract .02 from Cavic's time? Add .02 to Phelps' time?

What a can of worms. Using track is an apples/oranges argument. Track finish rules are any part of the head or torso crossing OVER the finish line thru the air in any manner. That would not work for swimming. Swimming has specific finish rules for each stroke and because of this requires a defined, finite barrier. Ain't nobody swimming thru the wall. Until some sort of laser timing system is created, touchpads are the best system we have.

Agreed. I just don't see swim clubs all over the world installing underwater cameras to judge finishes by photograph anytime soon...

gshaw
August 6th, 2009, 12:01 AM
If you watch the Omega guy's video, about 2/3 through it be ready to hit to pause button. Cavic is on the left, Phelps on right; it's an underwater view. This will help show why there are those (including this Omega guy) who think Cavic's fingers touched first. Visual perspective with underwater is tricky but it sure looks like Cavic is there first.

By the way, when we watched it the first time live I suspect every reader of the Forum thought Cavic won. It was an utter shock when they said Phelps won. I accept entirely the explanation that it takes a certain amount of pressure to activate the touch pad. Phelps won. But this video image sure "looks" like Cavic got there first. Watch it.

knelson
August 6th, 2009, 12:22 AM
I've attached a screen capture from the video. I'm assuming this is the one Greg is talking about. It certainly looks like Cavic is very close, but certainly isn't conclusive that he is touching. In fact it just illustrates how deceptive perspective can be. Phelps' arms are still recovering, yet it looks like Cavic is very close to touching. We know the finish was very close so there's no way Cavic has actually touched the wall at this point or else the difference would have been significantly more than .01.

Here's an underwater view of the race and the finish visually looks simultaneous
YouTube - men's 100 butterfly final Beijing 08 - cavic vs phelps - UNDERWATER VIEW

Mark Savage
August 6th, 2009, 01:17 AM
1625Pic of the finish

If you click on the photo, you can see how Cavic's fingers haven't touch the T, but Phelps has clearly hit the wall. Case closed.

Fishy
August 6th, 2009, 06:08 AM
I'm with Ande on this one. The current generation of touch pads require a specific force level to be triggered. If it's the same for everyone (i.e all the pads are operating in identical manner) then the finish requirements are the same. Since the race is decided by times derived from the pads, then it doesn't matter when someone touches the wall, it matters when they trigger the pad.

A lot of discussion has occurred around the concept that Cavic's fingers contacted the wall first. Looking at all the photos and slow speed footage, I have absolutely no trouble believing that Cavic's fingers were in contact with the wall first.

But to quote Bill Murray: It just doesn't matter!!!!

In Olympic Swimming the winner is determined by the swimmer who triggers the electronic timing system first NOT who touches the wall first.

Even my 8 yo swimmers know to drive into the touch pad hard.

Get over it, so you touched the wall first? Other than you and your coach, who really cares, you didn't finish hard so you came up .01 seconds short.

And had ANOTHER chance to prove you were faster and didn't get it done.

Let it go, just let it go.


Yes, the winner is determined by a machine, which is much more accurate, than human.This is the way it should be.
But the idea behind is that the machine never fails...
The Olympic Winner should be the one who wins, and in this case who finishes the distance first - it was Cavic.

"then it doesn't matter when someone touches the wall, it matters when they trigger the pad."

"In Olympic Swimming the winner is determined by the swimmer who triggers the electronic timing system first NOT who touches the wall first. "

I hope you don't belive in those two sentences. Because they are simply not true.
It should be the other way around. Your name is shown at the top of the display, because you were the fastest, and not because you pused hard enough the pad. Cause-effect.
Until the Men's 100 Butterfly Beijing 2008 everybody thought that the system is flawless...
They thought 'if someone touches the wall first they will be named first in the race.'

Let's exaggerate a little bit. What if the system brakes down so much,that even though the winner wins by - let's say - 2 seconds, yet his toch pad does not trigger somehow, but it does for the guy behind? You still tell for your swimmers that the second guy is the winner?? I hope not...

KeithM
August 6th, 2009, 07:13 AM
The Olympic Winner should be the one who wins, and in this case who finishes the distance first - it was Cavic.
Evidence?

quicksilver
August 6th, 2009, 07:31 AM
Maybe new Olympic tie breaking rule is in order?

Any swims within .01 require an immediate re-do of the race. No warm down.
Just get up on the blocks and do a swim off. First one to the finish regardless of time is the winner.

That would settle everything.

thewookiee
August 6th, 2009, 07:59 AM
1625Pic of the finish

If you click on the photo, you can see how Cavic's fingers haven't touch the T, but Phelps has clearly hit the wall. Case closed.

Looks like Cavic has at least 3 fingers on the wall. You pic doesn't prove anything.

KeithM
August 6th, 2009, 08:01 AM
Maybe new Olympic tie breaking rule is in order?

Any swims within .01 require an immediate re-do of the race. No warm down.
Just get up on the blocks and do a swim off. First one to the finish regardless of time is the winner.

That would settle everything.
Yeah I'll get Matt Biondi and Anthony Nesty on the line!

Problem is where does it end? Why stop at .01?

Those that assert (somehow with confidence) that Cavic touched first are in effect claiming a .02 discrepancy between when they believe Cavic finished and what the touch pads registered.

Timing systems are not infallible. The problems with Seiko in Fukuoka in 2001 demonstrated this. However then the problems were obvious and indisputable. In this case all parties seem to agree that the pads functioned as intended. But people are speculating about a scenario where the pads don't pick up touches and insufficient force being applied. Problem is we haven't been shown any evidence that this occurred in the first place. Not that it could not have transpired that way but we haven't seen any proof that it did.

I understand the speculation given how far Cavic had been ahead, how the race appeared live in real time from over the pool, and the gravity of the 8th gold medal. Those unique circumstances make it different than any other previous finish that came down to one hundredth of a second. The extra scrutiny was inevitable. But whatever the hypotheticals and limitations of the timing system I will trust it more than all the subjective theories and suppositions. It doesn't have bias. I believe that before one asserts that the official result was merely a product of the system's limitations they should support this view with evidence to confirm it.

Chris Lowe
August 6th, 2009, 08:56 AM
What's wrong with declaring a TIE?

The finish order will continue to be defined by the limits of the technology/equipment. Let them split the time, hell, give each one-half of the medal, and await the rematch.

Before touchpads, the place judge called the order of finish which overruled the hand held analog stopwatches. I know an NCAA All-American who won a 50 free and admitted he never touch the wall, and I survived a protested 1st with a time :0.1 secs slower than 2nd.

Maybe the first swimmer to push the button that sets off the Rube Goldberg device that releases 1000's of endorsement dollahs is the winner?

You learn more from your losses than your wins.

geochuck
August 6th, 2009, 09:32 AM
It is not who touched first it is who has the Gold Medal.

Who has the fastest time or who has the gold medal.

It happenned to me twice.

Judged first I had a slower time.

Judged second I had the faster time.

This was when each lane had timers, no touch pads.

knelson
August 6th, 2009, 10:28 AM
Evidence?

Yeah, I'm beginning to believe those who say Cavic touched first are just doing this to irritate the rest of us. It does NOT look like Cavic touched first in any photo or video I've seen. Please show me a picture where it looks like Cavic touched first! Unless someone can do this how can you possibly doubt the timing system? Some yahoo from Omega claiming Cavic touched first is not evidence.


What's wrong with declaring a TIE?

The finish order will continue to be defined by the limits of the technology/equipment.

But it wasn't a tie. Phelps won by .01!

dwlovell
August 6th, 2009, 11:07 AM
Maybe new Olympic tie breaking rule is in order?

Any swims within .01 require an immediate re-do of the race. No warm down.
Just get up on the blocks and do a swim off. First one to the finish regardless of time is the winner.

That would settle everything.

I like this solution a lot.

DPC
August 6th, 2009, 11:26 AM
The race is over, Phelps triggered the pad .01 before Cavic. The photos conclusively show Phelps hand on the touchpad - look at the angle of his hand - where Cavic does not show the same hand angle. And, like shots in tennis there looks to be daylight between his fingers and the pad. Camera angles are tough, but Phelp's camera angle is the same as Cavics and his hand has squarely hit the pad. Does anyone remember if they had back up timers on the deck in Bejing? If so - and I would imagine there were - what if anything did that show on the time?

Did Cavic touch the pad first and not set it off? - then why is it only a .01 difference, it would seem that the time difference would be longer. As somone said - for a 200 pound adult swimmer - even on a glide - the pad would most certainly trigger at that impact. Touch pads are not perfect but if Cavic was to have won that 2008 race the same way Phelps won the Rome 2009 race, and the pads malfunctioned the controversy is non-existent.


Before touchpads, the place judge called the order of finish which overruled the hand held analog stopwatches. I know an NCAA All-American who won a 50 free and admitted he never touch the wall, Were some people ever taught, especially on relays, to make a big splash at the end of their leg - masking the touch/takeoff on a relay. I know swimmers in dual meets that would , especially in close races with no touch pads (I know a long time ago) essentially actually jerk back, as though they had touched and "bounced" back from the wall. If they touched first or not, or if they won any races with the tactic I don't know. It seems awfully stupid to try that it if you are that close. - it would be too close to call, but I would guess they were relying on that action to trigger the timers response. We all thought Cavic had won and if we were hand timing, I bet that the stopwatch would have had Cavic winning based on the anticipation of the timers (just human nature).

Then again why stop at the second digit beyond the decimal - why not go 3 or 4 digits. Ties are so messy.

knelson
August 6th, 2009, 11:37 AM
Then again why stop at the second digit beyond the decimal - why not go 3 or 4 digits. Ties are so messy.

Because these digits are insignificant. Pool tolerances aren't that tight so you might be swimming up to an inch less per length than the guy next to you.

bekalc
August 6th, 2009, 01:32 PM
Yeah, I'm beginning to believe those who say Cavic touched first are just doing this to irritate the rest of us. It does NOT look like Cavic touched first in any photo or video I've seen. Please show me a picture where it looks like Cavic touched first! Unless someone can do this how can you possibly doubt the timing system? Some yahoo from Omega claiming Cavic touched first is not evidence.


It looks like Cavic probably touched before. I remember the last time I watched the clip (on the Worlds coverage) I saw Cavic with his hands oustretched not moving, and then Phelps moving in and touching. It's hard to tell completely if Cavic is touching. But it looks like he really could be touching. And for Cavic to not be touching already would mean that he would have been just floating still. Which to me isn't possible or likely.

We can look at videos until we are blue in the face, and well people can make pictures say whatever they want it to see. In the end, I didn't then, and I don't now really care who won that race.

gobears
August 6th, 2009, 02:02 PM
It looks like Cavic probably touched before. I remember the last time I watched the clip (on the Worlds coverage) I saw Cavic with his hands oustretched not moving, and then Phelps moving in and touching. It's hard to tell completely if Cavic is touching. But it looks like he really could be touching. And for Cavic to not be touching already would mean that he would have been just floating still. Which to me isn't possible or likely.

We can look at videos until we are blue in the face, and well people can make pictures say whatever they want it to see. In the end, I didn't then, and I don't now really care who won that race.

I find it very hard to believe people think they can clearly see something that took .01 seconds. :confused:

Justin Ritter
August 6th, 2009, 02:05 PM
Does anyone remember if they had back up timers on the deck in Bejing? If so - and I would imagine there were - what if anything did that show on the time?

If they used the same system as US Olympic Trials, which I believe they did, there were no human backup timers but high speed cameras above each lane to capture times if the pads fail. Those would be the interesting photos to see as they're the official finish photos. I believe that was what the timing officials were reviewing when Cavic filed the protest immediately after the race. Too bad Omega probably will never release those photos.

But yes, the race is over, Phelps is the winner, and we'll probably never be absolutely certain 100% exactly what happened.

knelson
August 6th, 2009, 02:57 PM
And for Cavic to not be touching already would mean that he would have been just floating still.

No it doesn't. It just means his hands were moving forward slower than Phelps' were.

I base my argument that Phelps won on three major facts:
1. The pad recorded his touch .01 second before Cavic.
2. The photo series published by SI shows Phelps clearly touching the wall while Cavic appears not to be yet. Some people disagree and suggest Cavic is also touching in this photo. If so--at best--this is only evidence of a tie, not a victory for Cavic.
3. Serbia protested, but withdrew their protest after seeing the official video.

dwlovell
August 6th, 2009, 03:45 PM
No it doesn't. It just means his hands were moving forward slower than Phelps' were.

I base my argument that Phelps won on three major facts:
1. The pad recorded his touch .01 second before Cavic.
2. The photo series published by SI shows Phelps clearly touching the wall while Cavic appears not to be yet. Some people disagree and suggest Cavic is also touching in this photo. If so--at best--this is only evidence of a tie, not a victory for Cavic.
3. Serbia protested, but withdrew their protest after seeing the official video.

I dont want to keep stirring it up, but there are easy respsoses to each of these:
1) No one is doubting that Phelps activated the pad first. The entire dispute is wether the pad functioned correctly when *some* believe the photos/video show Cavic touching first.
2) I dont think anyone can conclusively say anything from the photos on either side. The cameras aren't close enough and they appear one way to some people and another way to others. No one produces a photo that convinces everyone.
3) The omega official states that everyone who saw the video agreed that Cavic touched first, but were satisfied that he didn't push it hard enough to activate it first. He claims they withdrew protests not because they believed Phelps touched first, but because he activated the pad first and thus there was no other legal result possible.

The bottom line is Phelps is the legal winner and you can debate the true winner forever until someone produces proof that convinces EVERYONE who sees it. The only other standard fans can use right now is performance in subsequent races.

knelson
August 6th, 2009, 03:56 PM
1) No one is doubting that Phelps activated the pad first. The entire dispute is wether the pad functioned correctly when *some* believe the photos/video show Cavic touching first.

Apparently *some* do, but so far no one has shown any evidence showing Cavic touching first in this thread. Really, I'd love to see it. And, just for the record, I'm not trying to argue with you, David. I keep hearing there's evidence showing Cavic touched first, but no one seems to have it.

dwlovell
August 6th, 2009, 04:52 PM
Apparently *some* do, but so far no one has shown any evidence showing Cavic touching first in this thread. Really, I'd love to see it. And, just for the record, I'm not trying to argue with you, David. I keep hearing there's evidence showing Cavic touched first, but no one seems to have it.

I didn't think you were being argumentative, but I appreciate you clarifying it regardless. :) I am not either. I also agree with you there is no proof Cavic touched first.

lefty
August 6th, 2009, 05:20 PM
Apparently *some* do, but so far no one has shown any evidence showing Cavic touching first in this thread. Really, I'd love to see it. And, just for the record, I'm not trying to argue with you, David. I keep hearing there's evidence showing Cavic touched first, but no one seems to have it.


Kirk, I showed you the NY times picture which was taken .01 or .02 before the SI photo. I think Cavic's finger appears on the wall and Phelps does not. Of the two photos, in my opinion the NY times/ Phleps photo is the clearest one of the swimmers hand not being on the wall. But I don't think it is clear!

knelson
August 6th, 2009, 05:59 PM
Kirk, I showed you the NY times picture which was taken .01 or .02 before the SI photo. I think Cavic's finger appears on the wall and Phelps does not.

See, I think that one appears to show neither one quite to the wall yet. Cavic certainly looks closer, but it doesn't look to me like he's touched yet.

fatboy
August 6th, 2009, 06:21 PM
What a great race! Cavic and Phelps both deserved Gold - but it doesn't work that way.

I think that the winner is the one who touches the finish line first. Cavic supporters are claiming that the outside edge of the pad is the finish line. If you are using touchpads the finish line is a bit further - that very small distance that the pad must move to trigger the timing system.

orca1946
August 6th, 2009, 06:38 PM
I agree Frank! We all learned how to hit the pad as we were instructed to & learned by trial & error. I have had new swimmers hit the top all the time.

knelson
August 6th, 2009, 06:46 PM
In my experience, hitting the top of the pad is about the only way you won't trigger it and that's taken out of the equation with these FINA events where the pad extends out of the water. As geek said, maybe an 8 and under won't trigger the pad on the finish, but it's hard to believe a 200 pound man swimming at work record speed won't!

pwolf66
August 6th, 2009, 10:32 PM
Yes, the winner is determined by a machine, which is much more accurate, than human.This is the way it should be.
But the idea behind is that the machine never fails...
The Olympic Winner should be the one who wins, and in this case who finishes the distance first - it was Cavic.

Who said machines never fail? I work in Information Technology, things fail all the time.

Then point to clear proof that he touched first. Because there seems to be a lot more proof/analysis for the other conclusion. And without clear proof then the results from electronic timing stand. And as I pointed out, unless there was clear evidence of a malfunction the results must be accepted as accurate. I did clearly point out that the operation of all timing must be the same for all competitors.





"then it doesn't matter when someone touches the wall, it matters when they trigger the pad."

"In Olympic Swimming the winner is determined by the swimmer who triggers the electronic timing system first NOT who touches the wall first. "

I hope you don't belive in those two sentences. Because they are simply not true.
It should be the other way around. Your name is shown at the top of the display, because you were the fastest, and not because you pused hard enough the pad. Cause-effect.
Until the Men's 100 Butterfly Beijing 2008 everybody thought that the system is flawless...
They thought 'if someone touches the wall first they will be named first in the race.'


How about you quote the ENTIRE thought instead of just a fragment.

"The current generation of touch pads require a specific force level to be triggered. If it's the same for everyone (i.e all the pads are operating in identical manner) then the finish requirements are the same. Since the race is decided by times derived from the pads, then it doesn't matter when someone touches the wall, it matters when they trigger the pad."

No, actually in the context of races using touch pads, I beleive what I said. Is it the absolutely most accurate way of determining finish order? I don't know but I'm confident it's the best method currently possible. And every competitor KNOWS that they have to apply pressure to the pads to have them register. It's not like it's a complete surprise to any of them.

No actually, the winner is the one who completes the finish requirements of the race first. As I pointed out in Olympic Swimming, the requirements, since touch pads are the timing system used, mean that the swimmer who triggers the pads (from a pure timing aspect, outside of any stroke legality) first wins. In our summer league, it's the middle time of three watches. Puts way too much power in the timers hands as I have many times witnessed a finish were the 2nd place swimmers touches the wall first but the watch times (which have a margin of error of +/- .2 seconds) didn't agree.



Let's exaggerate a little bit. What if the system brakes down so much,that even though the winner wins by - let's say - 2 seconds, yet his toch pad does not trigger somehow, but it does for the guy behind? You still tell for your swimmers that the second guy is the winner?? I hope not...

You must not work meets with electronic timing because this does happen, when the electronic timing system has been determined to have been faulty (you seem to have missed the point about the timing system must be functioning correctly for all swimmers in my post) or the swimmer has missed the pad, then either an adjustment of the electronic timing shall be made or the backup timing system time shall be used as the official time. For most USA-s meets using electronic timing, the secondary timing is the manual buttons for the electronic timing and the backup to that are hand held watches.

For the Olympics if the timing system was determined to have malfunctioned (NOT the case in the 100 Fly final), they would determine times using the high speed cameras.


If you don't like the current system, then I suggest you invent one that's better.

3strokes
August 6th, 2009, 10:32 PM
Of course track finishes are harder to judge because any part of your body could cross the line first.

I could be wrong but I believe that in track it's the chest/torso not any part of the body; the fingers, hands and arms do not count.

pwolf66
August 6th, 2009, 10:37 PM
You're not wrong. Any part of the head or torso.

3strokes
August 6th, 2009, 10:38 PM
For some twisted reason the mental image of track using touchpads on a wall to judge finishes made me chuckle. Could you imagine the finish of the 100 meter dash into a brick wall :)

Actually that gives me an idea.

Very thin rectangles of a material that a) conducts electricity and b) is heavy enough not to flap in a wind and c) upon being touched acts as the touch pad in swimming. One of each such "pads" to be placed as if they were a door at the finish line and the runners could just run through them (like you see in some American Football games when the team (or the cheering-girls) come through whatever screen they use.

Do you think that if they ever had such a system, some runners might "hesitate" to go full bore, fearing that a prankster might have placed a solid and heavy object behind?

3strokes
August 6th, 2009, 10:42 PM
Using track is an apples/oranges argument. Track finish rules are any part of the head or torso crossing OVER the finish line thru the air in any manner. That would not work for swimming. Swimming has specific finish rules for each stroke and because of this requires a defined, finite barrier. Ain't nobody swimming thru the wall. Until some sort of laser timing system is created, touchpads are the best system we have.


Or they could make all the pools 55 meters long and the finish laser would be at 10 meters before the end (55+45=100). For a 50m dash, reposition the laser 5 meters from the end and let swimmers' hands be the part of the body that gets lasered.

3strokes
August 6th, 2009, 10:49 PM
Yeah I'll get Matt Biondi and Anthony Nesty on the line!

Problem is where does it end? Why stop at .01?

I believe that there exists a rule (it's too late in the p.m. for me to go look it up so I'm paraphrasing from—poor—memory) that says that electronic timing equipment can measure down to the 1/1000th of a second but that only
times to 1/100th of a second will be recognized. Somebody else may have seen or read this somewhere; I can't have dreamed it (because I thought to myself "At World and Olympic level meets 'Why not?'")

3strokes
August 6th, 2009, 10:54 PM
It happenned to me twice.

Judged first I had a slower time.

Judged second I had the faster time.

This was when each lane had timers, no touch pads.

Lane timers are humans too (sometimes).
They have different R.T.s (reaction times) to the Starter's signal and for the finish some are expecting the touch and possibly pushing the button at the moment they believe the swimmer will touch (kind of like a relay start) and some other timers might wait until your wrist bends backwards to make sure you touched. And I used to wonder :How can there be one finish judge? How can he see eight finishes almost at once?

3strokes
August 6th, 2009, 10:57 PM
Because these digits are insignificant. Pool tolerances aren't that tight so you might be swimming up to an inch less per length than the guy next to you.

Aren't official pools certified by a surveyor to make sure there no such discrepancies? The stress is on "official" and "certified".

knelson
August 6th, 2009, 11:43 PM
Aren't official pools certified by a surveyor to make sure there no such discrepancies? The stress is on "official" and "certified".

Yes, but there's still a tolerance. Pools are allowed a positive tolerance (i.e., too long) of 3 cm. The negative tolerance is zero (i.e., every lane must measure at least 25 meters or 50 meters, but not to exceed 25.03 or 50.03 meters). I went over this calculation before, but if we assume a 20 second 50 meter swim, that means the swimmer is traveling an average of 2.5 m/s. In .01 seconds they would move forward by 2.5 cm which--curiously enough--is very close to the tolerance value on the pool length.

selkie
August 6th, 2009, 11:58 PM
I believe that there exists a rule (it's too late in the p.m. for me to go look it up so I'm paraphrasing from—poor—memory) that says that electronic timing equipment can measure down to the 1/1000th of a second but that only
times to 1/100th of a second will be recognized. Somebody else may have seen or read this somewhere; I can't have dreamed it (because I thought to myself "At World and Olympic level meets 'Why not?'")

Omega has a nice 'history of timekeeping' section on their web site:

http://www.omegawatches.com/index.php?id=239&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=1016&tx_ttnews[backPid]=


Spectators in Munich witnessed the controversy of the first and only gold medal in the pool ever to be awarded on the basis of thousandths of a second which forced a change in rules. In the 400-metre medley, Gunnar Larsson, the double European champion from Sweden, and Tim McKee (USA) stopped the clock at 4:31.98. Officials then declared Larsson the champion: 4:31.981 to 4:31.983. Days later, the FINA rulebook was changed to declare that times would only be measured to a hundredth of a second.

Flurpo
August 7th, 2009, 12:31 AM
Apparently *some* do, but so far no one has shown any evidence showing Cavic touching first in this thread. Really, I'd love to see it. And, just for the record, I'm not trying to argue with you, David. I keep hearing there's evidence showing Cavic touched first, but no one seems to have it.

You know...I see the same thing...everything I've looked at shows Phelps touching first...I'm missing something...are there other angles or pics? Wasn't there a tie in the 100 free for the bronze at Beijing? This wasn't a tie..Phelps clearly got the gold....

stillwater
August 7th, 2009, 09:37 AM
What did the back-up timers results show?

geochuck
August 7th, 2009, 11:17 AM
I think they said Cavic seemed to go dead in the water .
Clarke Scholes was ahead of me by half a body length 5 feet from the end of a 100 and I touched him out. He was stationary.

lefty
August 7th, 2009, 12:14 PM
You know...I see the same thing...everything I've looked at shows Phelps touching first...I'm missing something...are there other angles or pics? Wasn't there a tie in the 100 free for the bronze at Beijing? This wasn't a tie..Phelps clearly got the gold....

to me saying you have definitive photo proof that Phelps touched the wall first is as silly as saying you have difinitive photo proof that Cavic touched first. We do have definitive proof that Phelps' touch pad registered him touching first. But that is not the same thing. Anyone who says the photos "prove" anything one way or the other has a preset notion of what they are seeing. If I photo shopped the images to switch who was swimming in what lane, took the body suit off of Cavic and put it on Phelps I bet people would say that it is "Clear" that Phelps (ie Cavic) touched first.

knelson
August 7th, 2009, 12:26 PM
The SI photo shows Phelps touching, though. Obviously it's less clear whether Cavic is touching in the same photo. I don't think he is, but others think it looks like he is. If this was the sole evidence we had for Phelps winning I would say, no, I'm not confident that Phelps won. However, it does serve as great backup evidence to what the touchpad recorded and certainly backs up the fact that it was a very close finish.

I think your Photoshop suggestion is wrong. I think the photo shows whoever the swimmer on the left is finishing before the swimmer on the right, regardless of the identity of those swimmers or any other evidence.

fatboy
August 7th, 2009, 06:43 PM
When you compete in any sport you agree to the rules of that sport. The use of touchpads and automated timing systems are part of the rules to determine the finish order in swimming. It is not a perfect system, but Phelps and Cavic but agreed to be bound by the decision when they entered the race.

pwolf66
August 7th, 2009, 08:30 PM
What did the back-up timers results show?

Irrelevant as the primary timing system was ruled to have been functioning properly. All parties agreed on this.

bekalc
August 7th, 2009, 09:02 PM
No it doesn't. It just means his hands were moving forward slower than Phelps' were.

I base my argument that Phelps won on three major facts:
1. The pad recorded his touch .01 second before Cavic.
2. The photo series published by SI shows Phelps clearly touching the wall while Cavic appears not to be yet. Some people disagree and suggest Cavic is also touching in this photo. If so--at best--this is only evidence of a tie, not a victory for Cavic.
3. Serbia protested, but withdrew their protest after seeing the official video.

It doesn't show that Cavic isn't touching already at all. If you look closely Cavic's fingers could EASILY already be touching.

geochuck
August 7th, 2009, 09:09 PM
I am ordering new glasses because I do not see what bekalc sees. Maybe it is my glasses. Maybe bekalc's glasses are rose colored and he sees only what he wants to see.

Mark Savage
August 7th, 2009, 09:38 PM
1633

Here’s a better enlargement of Cavic's finish:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/0808/oly.phelps.sequence/content.6.html

photo: Heinz Kluetmeier/SI

Flip back to the previous frame on the SI site and you can see by comparison that Phelps has clearly finished ahead of Cavic.
Cavic is reaching out with finger tips while gliding into the wall whereas Phelps fingers are already bent from having hit the wall first.

From Omega Timing: The ends of swimming races are also recorded with OMEGA’s high-speed video cameras which the judges can consult if any dispute should arise.

Photos were also taken by Omega cameras placed directly above the finish line. Serbia coach Kapor Mladen filed an appeal, but accepted the results after reviewing the Omega photos immediately after the race.

http://www.nbcolympics.com/swimming/news/newsid=252336.html

geochuck
August 7th, 2009, 09:48 PM
We must drive all the way to the finish. Cavic just finished poorly.

lefty
August 8th, 2009, 09:36 PM
We must drive all the way to the finish. Cavic just finished poorly.

I think we all agree on that!

gobears
August 8th, 2009, 10:51 PM
1633

Here’s a better enlargement of Cavic's finish:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/0808/oly.phelps.sequence/content.6.html

photo: Heinz Kluetmeier/SI

Flip back to the previous frame on the SI site and you can see by comparison that Phelps has clearly finished ahead of Cavic.
Cavic is reaching out with finger tips while gliding into the wall whereas Phelps fingers are already bent from having hit the wall first.



I'm not sure how else one can see that photo--unless they think Phelps was just angling his hand upward (which would have made his win even less probable). Cavic's fingers appear to either have barely hit the pad or not at all. Phelps has not only hit the pad but his fingers are bent as a result. Again, this whole discussion seems odd to me.

joakimvitriol
August 11th, 2009, 05:56 PM
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii235/joakimvitriol/image.jpg

Are you all blind?

joakimvitriol
August 11th, 2009, 06:09 PM
We must drive all the way to the finish. Cavic just finished poorly.

Poorly or not Cavic touched the wall first. Omega official said litteraly that and we all saw it with our own eyes.

geochuck
August 12th, 2009, 12:56 PM
Then how come Phelps got the Gold medal???

Me sticking up for Phelps that seems strange.

DPC
August 12th, 2009, 01:30 PM
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii235/joakimvitriol/image.jpg

Are you all blind?

No we are all not blind - I would check the order on those in photo bucket as it would be easy to take the pictures out of order and show a different result, because the SI photos and other sources show a much different picture - while extremely close. First the SI photos show Phelps on the left and Cavic on the right also the sequence is odd in the photo bucket and its Phelps, not Felps. Plus Phelps wore a black cap, in the photobucket he appears to be wearing a white cap.

knelson
August 12th, 2009, 01:46 PM
Interesting how the Speedo logo has migrated from the left side of Cavic's chest to the right side in the couple hundredths of a second between those two photos.

Nice hack job. :)

geochuck
August 12th, 2009, 01:53 PM
Photo Shop does wonders this is some work that can be done, click on the pic.

knelson
August 12th, 2009, 02:06 PM
Actually these photos are easy to explain and don't even require Photoshop, so I apologize for my earlier suggestion that these photos have been digitally altered. Cavic and Phelps also swam head-to-head in Beijing in prelims (the final heat, heat 9). In that race Cavic was in lane 5 and went 50.76. Phelps was in lane 4 and went 50.87. In finals their lane assignments were reversed, explaining why the position of Phelps to Cavic is exactly the opposite as in all the other photos we've seen. To summarize, the photos posted by joakimvitriol show the finish of the prelims heat, not finals. QED.

http://results.beijing2008.cn/WRM/ENG/INF/SW/C73A1/SWM021909.shtml#SWM021909

DPC
August 12th, 2009, 02:15 PM
Photo Shop does wonders this is some work that can be done, click on the pic.

I was wondering how she got that close to that croc/gator.

Bottom line is that the photos have been swapped out apparently taking two different races and mixing them together for the "desired" result.

knelson
August 12th, 2009, 02:25 PM
Bottom line is that the photos have been swapped out apparently taking two different races and mixing them together for the "desired" result.

Yeah, I thought they were both shots from prelims, but you're probably right. The top shot is from finals and mirrored (and that's why the Speedo logo is on the wrong side) so that Phelps and Cavic appear in the correct lanes to correspond to the bottom shot, which is a shot from their prelim race where Cavic did win.

joakimvitriol
August 20th, 2009, 12:18 PM
Then how come Phelps got the Gold medal???

Me sticking up for Phelps that seems strange.

easily,he steal and cheat...

joakimvitriol
August 20th, 2009, 12:22 PM
No we are all not blind - I would check the order on those in photo bucket as it would be easy to take the pictures out of order and show a different result, because the SI photos and other sources show a much different picture - while extremely close. First the SI photos show Phelps on the left and Cavic on the right also the sequence is odd in the photo bucket and its Phelps, not Felps. Plus Phelps wore a black cap, in the photobucket he appears to be wearing a white cap.

if you are not blind then you shourly have ear problem,omega(the official sponsor of phelps) says cavic touched first

joakimvitriol
August 20th, 2009, 12:25 PM
Yeah, I thought they were both shots from prelims, but you're probably right. The top shot is from finals and mirrored (and that's why the Speedo logo is on the wrong side) so that Phelps and Cavic appear in the correct lanes to correspond to the bottom shot, which is a shot from their prelim race where Cavic did win.

hahahahahaahahah......this is the good one..

knelson
August 20th, 2009, 12:39 PM
hahahahahaahahah......this is the good one..

Dude, your so-called evidence was debunked in about ten seconds. Maybe you should just give it up.

geochuck
August 20th, 2009, 12:59 PM
If Omega said Cavic won their timming devices should not be used they are very unreliable.

orca1946
August 20th, 2009, 06:19 PM
:dedhorse::dedhorse::dedhorse:

rtodd
August 20th, 2009, 06:24 PM
I don't care who touched first. Who tripped the timing device first? If you are going to touch it like a baby, you don't deserve to win.

joakimvitriol
August 20th, 2009, 07:08 PM
I don't care who touched first. Who tripped the timing device first? If you are going to touch it like a baby, you don't deserve to win.

if you dont care ok ,but a judge on this mach if knowing rules are might be, the name of the sport is swimming,not boxing,not wrestling....it is all about race,and the winer is the one who came on finish first....and in this race that man is cavic

joakimvitriol
August 20th, 2009, 07:27 PM
Dude, your so-called evidence was debunked in about ten seconds. Maybe you should just give it up.

dude,this is not my evidence,this is just opinion the official sponsor of phelps -omega......what are you dont understand about it

rtodd
August 20th, 2009, 09:28 PM
joakimvitriol,

You are right. Your articulate and lucid explanation of the facts has finally sunk in. Your mastery of persuation through written English has so overwhelmed me, I need not be shown any further photo evidence and certainly don't need any links to outside references.

It's clear to me now there was an outrageous cover up of the obvious facts. From this point on, I will tirelessly look to convince others who think Phelps touched first.

Thanks again.

geochuck
August 20th, 2009, 09:44 PM
rtodd

:bouncing::bouncing: I don't want rain on you parade :badday::badday::badday::badday:

M_Tyson
August 20th, 2009, 10:47 PM
What constitutes clear evidence that the timing system malfunctioned? Does anyone here feel that IF THE TIMES WERE REVERSED, that the photos would have been CLEAR evidence that timing system malfunctioned? (That is, do the photos show clearly enough that Phelps touched first such that if the pads had said Cavic one by 0.01, the timing system should have been overruled.) I think most people would believe it would be evidence, but I think most people may also believe it may not be clear enough.

In the Olympics or the Olympic trials, I felt the images from the TV showed two other relative finishes that should have been called differently. I would have to go back and review the races to try to find them. But, if we saw a pattern of questionable calls, how would that affect your confidence of the timing system? (I'm not sure I was right in my impression, but I felt one was pretty clear while the other could have been a Phelps-Cavic type finish.)

Most races are not decided by the 100th of a second where you can see both pads at the same time. It is rare to get a race in which you could distinguish a small difference between one pad and another. 99.99% of the time, one pad *could* measure 0.02 seconds slower than another and we'd never notice. (It seems unlikely that this would be the case, but then I don't know the design well enough.)

Does each touch pad undergo a test before each big meet to make sure it is functioning properly and promptly responds to the right pressure, across many points across its surface? I assume pads eventually fail. How often do pads fail such tests?

I'll also point out that with perfect equipment, Phelps could have triggered the pad anywhere from less than 0.001 to more than 0.019 before Cavic and yet have a time recorded as 0.01 seconds faster. Conceivably, if both swimmers were each 0.001 seconds faster (or slower), they would have registered the same time (ie, a tie) or the difference might have registered as 0.02. It all depends upon whether the 0.01 tick (or two) comes between their touches or not.

selkie
August 20th, 2009, 10:51 PM
There was no evidence of a Fukuoka-style large scale system irregularity in Beijing, and I suspect after that fiasco that FINA does have some very solid protocols in place to ensure the integrity of the system.

knelson
August 20th, 2009, 11:55 PM
dude,this is not my evidence,this is just opinion the official sponsor of phelps -omega......what are you dont understand about it

You're incorrect. It's just what one man who works for Omega said. In my opinion the electronic timing and photographic evidence is far, far more compelling and these point to Phelps touching first.

geochuck
August 21st, 2009, 12:02 AM
How long will that guy have a job??? Or has he already bit the dust and it is his way of getting back at Omega.

gobears
August 21st, 2009, 08:11 AM
joakimvitriol is a TROLL. His/her message count is revealing (especially considering the deceiving pictures linked). He's now resurrected this thread to continue his baiting. Pretty sad.

swimcat
August 21st, 2009, 10:15 AM
:dedhorse::dedhorse::dedhorse:
why are we still talking about this... did Dara yap yap when she lost by the same margin??? did rebecca soni????????? did others...................
ok so who knows. maybe the touchpad was faulty. hmmmmmmm
what was his excuse in Rome??????????????????////
i am not saying this b/c i am a phelpsfan

joakimvitriol
August 21st, 2009, 11:30 AM
joakimvitriol is a TROLL. His/her message count is revealing (especially considering the deceiving pictures linked). He's now resurrected this thread to continue his baiting. Pretty sad.

YouTube - Pobeda Cavica na usporenom snimku

That Guy
August 21st, 2009, 03:37 PM
How long will that guy have a job??? Or has he already bit the dust and it is his way of getting back at Omega.

Please don't drag me into this, I don't work for Omega.

joakimvitriol
August 21st, 2009, 05:44 PM
joakimvitriol,

You are right. Your articulate and lucid explanation of the facts has finally sunk in. Your mastery of persuation through written English has so overwhelmed me, I need not be shown any further photo evidence and certainly don't need any links to outside references.

It's clear to me now there was an outrageous cover up of the obvious facts. From this point on, I will tirelessly look to convince others who think Phelps touched first.

Thanks again.

i check and the foto is probably fake,i didnt know,my mistake....but all other evidence are sugestions the cavic was first....so sorry for my bad english,i hope you spoke any language but english...

geochuck
August 21st, 2009, 05:54 PM
I know you think he was first and you feel he was cheated. But this could go on forever. Phelps has the gold medal and no matter how hard you try it will not change. Take the complaint to FINA. We cannot solve the problem here.

Personally I am sure that Phelps won the race and the photos that I saw showed me that Phelps won. Phelps is not my favorite person but he is a great swimmer. Cavic is also a great swimmer.


i check and the foto is probably fake,i didnt know,my mistake....but all other evidence are sugestions the cavic was first....so sorry for my bad english,i hope you spoke any language but english...

joakimvitriol
August 21st, 2009, 08:51 PM
I think we can all agree that Omega timekeeper said "...so it's for sure, the video also shows it, Cavic touched the pad before Phelps...".

Question is why Omega did not give us their video in 0.01 second frame by frame (like someone said before) but instead they again gave us some photos that shows nothing. What is the problem with simple truth uncovering?

quicksilver
August 21st, 2009, 09:44 PM
The above water finish was very deceptive. This video shows a different angle.
Cavic glided into the pad. Phelps hammered the finish.

YouTube - Phelps vs Cavic by a finger nail

rtodd
August 21st, 2009, 11:07 PM
Good video Val.

As far as I'm concerned, Cavic had the chance to "clear this all up" in Rome. We know what happened. The video evidence was more conclusive. Phelps nailed the lid on this "controversy".

pwolf66
August 21st, 2009, 11:21 PM
I think we can all agree that Omega timekeeper said "...so it's for sure, the video also shows it, Cavic touched the pad before Phelps...".

Question is why Omega did not give us their video in 0.01 second frame by frame (like someone said before) but instead they again gave us some photos that shows nothing. What is the problem with simple truth uncovering?


Have you read ANY of the previous posts in this thread or could you not be bothered to see if you were, in any way, bringing up material that had already been discussed?

As for truth? Who's truth? Yours? Or the rest of the worlds?

Here's some truths for you:

1) Every olympic swimmer at the 2008 games KNEW that electronic touch pads were being used.
2) Every olympic swimmer at the 2008 games KNEW that it takes a certain level of force to trigger the pad
3) Every olympic swimmer KNEW that it's not who _touches_ the wall first who wins, it's who triggers the touch pad first because the electronic timing system was what was being used to determine order of finish.
4) Unless it was determined that the electronic timing system malfunction, the results of the timing system are the official results. So anything that is revealed thru other means such as high speed cameras is completely irrelevant because the timing system worked.
5) Everyone involved at the time agreed that the electronic timing system was functioning properly.
6) Cavic glided into the finish without even taking a single kick, his body was completely motionless as he reached the finish. And he lifted his head prior to touching the wall.
7) Heck, every elite year round competitve swimmer over the age of 12 KNOWS that you NEVER glide into the finish or lift your head prior to the touch unless you want to risk getting beat.

Now, exactly what truths do you disagree with?

Or what truths do you think that YOU have that countermand the ones above.

If you are a troll, then please go away, if you are not, please take the time to read thru this entire thread and then just let it go.

rtodd
August 21st, 2009, 11:32 PM
Well said Paul,

Yes, swimming is a "contact" sport. I just love the way Phelps punched it in that race. It was violent and angry. I think he left permanent marks on that touch pad.