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View Full Version : SUITS - again!



gray
August 10th, 2009, 09:19 AM
OK, supposing the FINA dosn't change their ruling again, can someone explain down to the suit name what will be allowed for men and women. I am under the impression that we are going back to the FSII style suit fabircs and the Tyr tracer light type suits. For both men and women we can still wear the full body type suit.

True or not true??

thewookiee
August 10th, 2009, 09:34 AM
Simple...if FINA doesn't say definitly for masters, everyone on the men's side can wear either traditional briefs or jammers. FS Pro style jammers and before. No lzr jammers.

The tyr tracer light jammers will probably be ok. Not shoulder to knee/ankle suits for men right now.

Women...shoulder to knee suits are ok.

No suits with any rubber type material. Think 2007 and before material for suits.

gray
August 10th, 2009, 09:44 AM
that's what I thought, but call me a radical. the knee/ankle for men should be allowed in ghe FSII and tyr type suits that do not have any neoprene/rubber additions hence the pre 2007 suit. If anything, now we are going backwards. Given the Jaked and Arena x glide have no lycra/nylon in the suit, they should never have been allowed in the first place (but that's another story). The lazr and tyr rise were probably as far as I would have taken it.

gull
August 10th, 2009, 10:17 AM
If anything, now we are going backwards.

That's the point. FINA should have intervened when the first body suits and leg skins appeared on the market.

Allen Stark
August 10th, 2009, 10:23 AM
As it stands right now the tech suit ban will not apply to Masters.That may change when the FINA Masters committee meets.I understand that committee has many new members and what they will decide cannot be predicted at this time.

swimcat
August 10th, 2009, 10:33 AM
speedo flipturns (women) came out with a two piece with a skirt on it. LMAO maybe that will be the female suit of choice

lefty
August 10th, 2009, 10:38 AM
I think to be fair to vendors, the ban on the masters level should be much slower. Like 2011 or even 2012. We can be the last market palce for these suits!

At a tri this weekend I saw a whole lot of people wearing LZR's...

DPC
August 10th, 2009, 01:35 PM
Simple...if FINA doesn't say definitly for masters, everyone on the men's side can wear either traditional briefs or jammers. FS Pro style jammers and before. No lzr jammers.

So if FINA says the rule doesn'tapply to Masters - we are still only allowed to use Jammers & briefs for men? Will the FS-Pro stay alive? Isn't it coated to repel water? This is so frustrating. I was going to get an FS-Pro legskin, but that's out from almost everyone's guidlines - and if I'm putting down $100 I don't want to buy a suit that I can't use beyond this December. Maybe I'll stick with the aquablades I have, or perhaps I'll go with an FSII at this point.

Redbird Alum
August 10th, 2009, 01:39 PM
UNless you are going for a record or personal best under current conditions (such as they are), I would refrain from buying a newer suit until after the complete picture is in place. Otherwise, you may be able to wear something in Masters that USS or Fina would disallow.

In the near term, alot depends on if you swim outside the Masters venue.

orca1946
August 10th, 2009, 01:44 PM
I agree with Redbird, hold off on buying any suit till they, masters, makes it's ruling on suits for next year !!:confused:

thewookiee
August 10th, 2009, 01:49 PM
So if FINA says the rule doesn't apply to Masters - we are still only allowed to use Jammers & briefs for men? Will the FS-Pro stay alive? Isn't it coated to repel water? This is so frustrating. I was going to get an FS-Pro legskin, but that's out from almost everyone's guidlines - and if I'm putting down $100 I don't want to buy a suit that I can't use beyond this December. Maybe I'll stick with the aquablades I have, or perhaps I'll go with an FSII at this point.

If FINA says the tech suit ruling do not apply to masters, then we can wear any of the suits out there.

If they DO apply the ruling, I would be the fs pro jammer will be legal. I haven't heard of any coatings on it.

ande
August 10th, 2009, 02:11 PM
If FINA's rules apply to masters, I believe men will be back in FS PRO jammers.

the B70's Xglide, & jaked have fabric too, it's just covered with a stretchy rubbery compound.

I think masters are in a wait and see mode

Here's what FINA has decided PR59 - FINA BUREAU MEETING (http://www.fina.org/project/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2543&Itemid=108)




The FINA Bureau met today in Rome (ITA) and approved the final list of FINA Commissions and Committees for the period 2009-2013. For each of the technical committees of the five FINA aquatic disciplines, the number of members was increased from 12 to 15. This new composition is aimed at supporting the development of FINA sports in the five continents and is due to the improvement of the number of affiliated FINA National Federations worldwide, which is actually of 201.

These new technical committees will meet before the end of the year to establish their four- year plan of activities, to be presented at the next FINA Bureau meeting on January 15-16, 2010 in Bangkok (THA).

Moreover, the Bureau reconfirmed its position in relation with the requirements for swimwear approval, reinforcing the decision of the Congress on July 24, 2009. These rules include the following conditions for swimwear approval:

Surface covered: Men swimsuit shall not extend above the navel nor below the knee and for women shall not cover the neck or extend past the shoulders nor shall extend below the knee.

Type of material: The material used for swimsuits can be only "Textile Fabric(s)" defined for the purpose of these rules as material consisting of, natural and/or synthetic, individual and non consolidated yarns used to constitute a fabric by weaving, knitting, and/or braiding.

Surface treatment of the textile fabric: Any material added on to the surface of the textile fabric (e.g. coating, printing, impregnation) shall not close the original open mesh structure of the base textile fabric. The treated material shall further comply with all requirements in particular in regard to thickness, permeability and flexibility. This part of the rule does not apply to logos and labels. This applies to both the manufacturing level and the actual use of the swimsuit.

Flexibility: the material shall be flexible and soft-folding.

Regular flat material: The material shall be regular and flat. The material shall not form outstanding shapes or structures, such as scales.

Outside application: No outside application shall be added on the material.

Variety of materials: Different materials may be used in one swimsuit provided they are textile fabrics as defined above and they comply with all other criteria including notably thickness and permeability (measures to apply to total layers). Combination of materials shall further not create outstanding shape(s) or structure(s). Layered materials must be completely attached/bound/stuck together except where required to protect sensitive parts ("privacy layers").

Thickness: The material used shall have a maximum thickness of 0.8mm. It is clarified that this maximum thickness does not apply to seams as far as they are functional and their thickness and width result from their natural function.

Buoyancy: The swimsuit shall not have a buoyancy effect above 0.5 Newton measured after application of vacuum.

Permeability: Material(s) used must have at any point a permeability value of more than 80 l/m2/second. Permeability values are measured on material with a standard multidirectional stretch of 25 %. However, measure on material which cannot be significantly stretched will be effected on unstreched flattened material.

Construction: No zippers or other fastening system is allowed. Seams shall be limited to functional systems and shall not create outside shapes.

External stimulation or influence: Swimsuits which include any system providing external stimulation or influence of any type, including pain reduction, chemical/medical substance release, electro-stimulation etc. are prohibited.

Consistency: Swimsuits effectively manufactured and used shall correspond to and be fully consistent with submitted samples. Any modification before use (including impregnation) is prohibited.

Customisation: There shall be no variation/modification for individual swimmers from the models corresponding to the samples submitted for approval.

The new requirements for swimwear approval will be enforced from January 1, 2010. The list of approved swimsuits by FINA Executive on June 19, 2009 and published on the FINA website, is valid until December 31, 2009.

Approval of swimwear in the future will be done at least 12 months before the next FINA World Championships (50m) or Olympic Games. Moreover, the manufacturers will have the responsibility of making those models available on the market (available on sale to Federations and competitors) at least six months prior to the next coming FINA World Championships or Olympic Games.

As announced by FINA President Dr Julio Maglione, the Bureau appointed a Commission led by Prof. Jan-Anders Manson (from EPFL in Lausanne, SUI) and formed by scientific experts and an athlete’s representative to control the swimwear approval process and to monitor the development of the swimsuit industry based on the rules established by the FINA Bureau and the measurable scientific tests on buoyancy and permeability.

Chris Stevenson
August 10th, 2009, 03:32 PM
I think to be fair to vendors, the ban on the masters level should be much slower. Like 2011 or even 2012. We can be the last market palce for these suits!

I feel a little sorry for them...but I don't think it is our job to worry about the vendors. They'll be fine.

orca1946
August 10th, 2009, 04:28 PM
Venders will have something else to sell us !

gray
August 10th, 2009, 04:37 PM
Well overall, I think that the men's suits not being allowed to go below the knee is taking it way back to the dark ages. I agree with the tech suits to a point, which is why FINA is in place to regulate the sport. That being said, they did a very bad job and it has hurt our sport. Going back to just briefs or jammers is not the ideal ruling, to me this was a political statment becasue of the negative press and the backlash that FINA was taking so they just in a stike of the pen eliminated the problem....they just do not, as any political organization, know how to manage or lead.

Now that that is off my chest, I plan on buying a jaked or B70 suit off of ebay to use in masters meets till at least December. I used the Tyr rise in zones and loved it. Mostly for me it was a psychological boost.

Allen Stark
August 10th, 2009, 07:04 PM
Again,we need to see what the FINA Masters committee says.The last I heard they did not have suits on their agenda,though I suspect that will change.

meldyck
August 10th, 2009, 07:48 PM
I feel a little sorry for them...but I don't think it is our job to worry about the vendors. They'll be fine.

You may be a bit naive here, Chris. One of the originators of the new kinds of suits was The Victor (where I purchased my first knee-to-shoulder length suit in 1999). They are no longer in business. If some of the current, small, vendors have a big investment in suits that cannot be sold, there may be some paring of the number of suit providers. But, perhaps you're right, maybe we shouldn't worry about that - it's just good Capitalism.

Ian Smith
August 10th, 2009, 08:35 PM
If some of the current, small, vendors have a big investment in suits that cannot be sold, there may be some paring of the number of suit providers. But, perhaps you're right, maybe we shouldn't worry about that - it's just good Capitalism.

Actually Mel, it has struck me that, if any manufacturer goes under it will be due a rather Communist dictate that all swimmers shall be equal and no advantage be allowed to the innovative. This doesn't seem to be Capitalism at work.

Last year when Speedo had the lead with the LZR and their competition reacted - that was Capitalism.
Ian.

djacks
August 10th, 2009, 08:58 PM
I'm happy to see things revert back and no, I'm not a Luddite. I bought a FS-Pro full body at the beginning of this summer thinking that, since it was a "textile" suit, it would likely survive any potential ban to the super-fast suits... it didn't. And, I'm happy things are going back to jammers. I really don't like futzing with putting the stupid thing on and being super careful with it. I'll gladly buy a new pair of jammers and pull them on with no fuss right before my race.

psyncw
August 10th, 2009, 09:02 PM
Remember it was the U.S.A. swimming community that submitted the suit proposal to FINA to limit the men's suit to briefs or jammers. I find it very ironic that members of the USA masters community would suggest or recommend that masters not follow the FINA suit policy.

Chris Stevenson
August 10th, 2009, 09:09 PM
You may be a bit naive here, Chris..

Probably. But I think companies like B70 and Jaked got a lot of exposure and name recognition. If they make a legal suit in the future I will cerainly give a B70 v strong consideration.

But come convention-time I will be thinking primarily of the needs of 3 types of swimmers:
-- those who compete and love the suit who will be unhappy if they are gone
-- those who compete but have been turned off by the suits, perhaps even to the point of (say) competing less
-- those who haven't competed but might be considering it in the future.

That's enough to worry about for now!

gray
August 11th, 2009, 09:38 AM
I guess that we need to have technology to a degree, I am all for it. Given the development of tennis rackets for instance. Without the composite makeup of the racket frame today, players like Roddick, etc wouldn't have a chance because the racket develops so much power off the serve and groundstrokes. What about the new "track" style starting blocks whcih you can see at the US open. Why should this be allowed, it will give a swimmer more leverage on the start?

Point is, we need to move forward with technology to a degree just as any sport has evolved over time.

swimshark
August 11th, 2009, 02:57 PM
Women...shoulder to knee suits are ok.

No suits with any rubber type material. Think 2007 and before material for suits.

And no zippers or clips. So even my old material Aquapel's are our since they have a zipper back :(

thewookiee
August 11th, 2009, 03:04 PM
And no zippers or clips. So even my old material Aquapel's are our since they have a zipper back :(

I don't really get the "no zippers or fasteners" restriction.

scyfreestyler
August 11th, 2009, 03:37 PM
I don't really get the "no zippers or fasteners" restriction.

I'm guessing a zipper allows for greater compression in a full body suit, or even just an upper body suit.

thewookiee
August 11th, 2009, 03:51 PM
I'm guessing a zipper allows for greater compression in a full body suit, or even just an upper body suit.

Ok. Thanks. Probably the reason behind it. While I am in favor of keeping the textile bodysuits, I am debating if I should keep using my FS Pro bodysuit or my arena powerskin suit, or if I should go ahead and start using fs pro jammer or tyr tracer jammer

swimshark
August 12th, 2009, 06:44 AM
I don't really get the "no zippers or fasteners" restriction.

I don't get it either. I thought it was the fabric that was the problem, not the closure. My old tech suit is not making me faster yet it's now banned in my USAS meets.

GGS5T
August 12th, 2009, 08:38 AM
I'm guessing a zipper allows for greater compression in a full body suit, or even just an upper body suit.

You are right. It's the compression that's achieved by zips. So no zips in future.

The 'no zippers' or 'fasteners' rule is causing problems already. I coach a couple of swimmers who are already putting 'fasteners' in place of zips on their suits. These are lines of hooks either side, in place of the zip. They are then laced together, just like a shoe. (Hope this is clear).

I've spoken to someone at FINA who has confirmed it will not be accepted. He said, No 'ties' will be allowed.

OK guys, no cord in your Speedos or jammers in future!!

Expect yet another rule change from FINA soon.

thewookiee
August 12th, 2009, 09:07 AM
You are right. It's the compression that's achieved by zips. So no zips in future.

The 'no zippers' or 'fasteners' rule is causing problems already. I coach a couple of swimmers who are already putting 'fasteners' in place of zips on their suits. These are lines of hooks either side, in place of the zip. They are then laced together, just like a shoe. (Hope this is clear).

I've spoken to someone at FINA who has confirmed it will not be accepted. He said, No 'ties' will be allowed.

OK guys, no cord in your Speedos or jammers in future!!

Expect yet another rule change from FINA soon.



Hmmm...didn't they make an exception to the "no fasterners" rule for briefs and jammers? Doesn't make a lot of sense to not have a tie string for guys suits...unless we can swim naked and not be disqualified for not wearing suitable attire.

Muppet
August 13th, 2009, 12:09 PM
OK guys, no cord in your Speedos or jammers in future!!

This is contradictory to what I have read. Unless speedo, tyr, arena, etc are going to custom-fit every single individual swimmer out there, these drawstrings are necessary to keep the suit on the swimmer and thus allowed.

BillS
August 13th, 2009, 03:20 PM
This is contradictory to what I have read. Unless speedo, tyr, arena, etc are going to custom-fit every single individual swimmer out there, these drawstrings are necessary to keep the suit on the swimmer and thus allowed.

The NCAA rule expressly allows drawstrings:


CONSTRUCTION

Any system providing external stimulation or influence of any form (for example, pain reduction, chemical/medical substance release, electro-stimulation, compression of body profile or other performance-enhancing properties) is prohibited.
The swimsuit shall not have any zippers or fasteners other than a waist tie for a brief or a jammer.
The swimsuit shall be composed of no more than two layers, the sum of which shall not exceed .8 millimeters in total thickness (except in the casing/ribbing in the terminal ends of the swimsuit).
Elastic material may be contained within the casing/ribbing in the terminal ends of the swimsuit (for example, shoulder straps, waist opening, leg openings).

The FINA rule does not expressly address the issue.