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cathykohn
August 10th, 2009, 07:01 PM
It is obvious that the new team scoring rules for National Championships has not achieved the purposes for which it was designed. At 2009 LC Nationals, many relatively small teams were classified as "regional teams" because their LMSC is so small that they all compete together at Nationals (ie., MOVY with 25 members), and many huge teams were not classified as "regional" teams because there were multiple teams in their LMSC (ie., IndySwimfit with 125 members). If the intent of the new rule was to prevent large teams from overpowering small teams in team scoring, the current rule has produced a ridiculous result.

I don't know why USMS abandoned the concept of Large Team/Small Team scoring years ago, but this concept would seem to work much more equitably. Some might argue that it is difficult to draw the line between large and small teams, but I think it becomes pretty obvious if you look at the Team Rosters from this year's meet. If the Championship Committee made this determination prior to each Nationals after the entries closed, which is the way they used to do it, if I remember correctly, we would minimize the potential problems with setting an arbitrary immutable limit for all Nationals.

Muppet
August 11th, 2009, 10:22 PM
If the intent of the new rule was to prevent large teams from overpowering small teams in team scoring, the current rule has produced a ridiculous result.

The rule was changed so that "Regional Teams" who can pull participants from their entire LMSC - a pool of thousands of swimmers in some cases - aren't competing against "Club Teams" who can only pull participants from only one team.

What happens every Nationals is that the host club and the host LMSC's teams ALWAYS have a lot of people because it is easy to just show up and swim - and that gives them a huge advantage against other clubs, especially in relays. That is a fact of life, and really, the only way to beat the hosts is to bring as many people.

I know that this setup doesn't always work out perfectly, but a lot of the way the teams break down depends on the location of Nationals - and any team's placement can vary from meet to meet. For a regional team from a smaller LMSC like MOVY, I understand your gripe - but let's face it, even with Large/Small scoring, there are still going to be plenty of dissatisfied folks.

Ahelee Sue Osborn
August 13th, 2009, 08:42 PM
My team had 15 swimmers and finished in the Top 10.
I was really happy about that and actually never looked at the different team sizes.

Think most all of the California teams were limited in size like we were, because of the travel distance.

Even with the relative small size of our National Team, we all had a great time and seem to have grown closer with the experience.
Relay day was definitely a part of that process.

I love the energy at workouts now as the National Team tells their stories about the INDY trip!
Seems many swimmers are already committing to traveling to Atlanta in the Spring and don't want to miss all the excitement :)

Mel
August 29th, 2009, 08:32 PM
Just as FYI....Indy SwimFit is a "Club" Team...We have hosted 5 US Masters Swimming National Championships, this was the first year we won a championship.....

Paul Smith
August 29th, 2009, 11:46 PM
Just as FYI....Indy SwimFit is a "Club" Team...We have hosted 5 US Masters Swimming National Championships, this was the first year we won a championship.....

Mel, please share with us all how many teams Indy SwimFit "controls" and how many other masters teams are in Indy that you compete with for members? A city of what size?

No disrespect but bottom line is there are a number of teams who are classified as "clubs" who are in a gray area...IMHO.

pwb
August 30th, 2009, 11:30 AM
The rule was changed so that "Regional Teams" who can pull participants from their entire LMSC - a pool of thousands of swimmers in some cases - aren't competing against "Club Teams" who can only pull participants from only one team.

What happens every Nationals is that the host club and the host LMSC's teams ALWAYS have a lot of people because it is easy to just show up and swim - and that gives them a huge advantage against other clubs, especially in relays. That is a fact of life, and really, the only way to beat the hosts is to bring as many people.

I know that this setup doesn't always work out perfectly, but a lot of the way the teams break down depends on the location of Nationals - and any team's placement can vary from meet to meet. For a regional team from a smaller LMSC like MOVY, I understand your gripe - but let's face it, even with Large/Small scoring, there are still going to be plenty of dissatisfied folks.

I agree ... and find it kind of amusing that people get so worked up over team scoring at Nationals. I think teams are great for camaraderie and certainly relays, but the team scores are bogus given the numerous factors (outside of swimming strength in the pool) that contribute in a far greater way to scores.

Mel
August 30th, 2009, 12:02 PM
First and foremost, I nor YMCA Indy SwimFit DO NOT "Control" teams/workout groups or clubs. YMCA Indy SwimFit is a YMCA sponsored program, with 2 Full Time Coaches and 8 Part Time Coaches, and all of the coaches are employees of the same YMCA. We use 3 YMCA facilities, 1 high school, and a university pool to accommodate the fitness swimmer, triathlete, and competitive masters swimmers who are members of our program. We offer 8 workouts a day Monday thru Friday and 2 on Saturday, with a coach on deck at all times. The workouts are provided by our Head Coach, and are the same at each location. It is not uncommon to have 30-40 swimmers in each of the two Saturday practices. We are a true "Club" by any one's definition, at this years LC Championship we had 17 swimmers who swam in their first Nationals and 23 swimmers who swam the relay day only. There are 5 other clubs in the Indianapolis area, three of them I have been working to develop Masters Programs for their membership within their facility. These clubs and their facilities see the value of having an adult aquatic fitness program for their members who have chosen aquatics as a means of exercise for a healthier lifestyle. Additionally, it has created an additional revenue stream for them during these tough economic times. Individual clubs create new membership and develop new leadership. In Indiana today we have 17+ Clubs, when we only used to have one and the US Masters Swimming membership growth in the LMSC is in direct correllation with number of new clubs. When it comes to club scoring everyone knows in a "Age Group" meet, the more swimmers you bring the more points you score. For example if Illinois Masters brought 200+ swimmers out of their 1500 membership there would be no way ISF could win...They didn't and we did...

NKMD
August 30th, 2009, 02:45 PM
For example if Illinois Masters brought 200+ swimmers out of their 1500 membership there would be no way ISF could win...They didn't and we did...


I wish we could have brought more swimmers. Illinois Masters only had 72 and got second to Michigan with 20 less swimmers. A few years ago, Illinois Masters brought a huge team and beat INDYSwim Fit the meet host. Illinois Masters has approx 1500 members, approx 52 workout groups, approx 70 coaches.

I fully support the separate recognition for CLUBS; they deserve it. At least their coach deserves it. More power to the coach if he/she is a good recruiter

FYI-The Illinois LMSC (ILMSA) had Academy Bullets, Elgin Blue Waves and a couple unattached swimmers.

Another FYI: even without relays INDYSwim Fit would have still won Nationals. Congratulations INDYSwim Fit.

Frank Thompson
August 30th, 2009, 04:43 PM
I wish we could have brought more swimmers. Illinois Masters only had 72 and got second to Michigan with 20 less swimmers. A few years ago, Illinois Masters brought a huge team and beat INDYSwim Fit the meet host. Illinois Masters has approx 1500 members, approx 52 workout groups, approx 70 coaches.

Nadine:

Michigan Masters had 45 swimmers that scored in the meet from the start of the meet team roster. We had 52 swimmers sign up so we had 7 no shows. Illinois Masters had 68 swimmers that scored in the meet from the start of the meet team roster. You had 72 swimmers sign up with 4 no shows. This information was taken from the LMSC results summary.

Of the 52 swimmers that signed up, only one swimmer was from outside the borders of the Michigan LMSC and he happened to be a brother of one of our swimmers. We had entered 42 relays and scored in 41 of them with one DQ. Michigan Masters scored more points on relay day, with the exception of Indy Swim Fit than any club or team that was entered in the meet. 40 swimmers out of 45 swam the maximum of 4 relays on relay day contributing to the relay scores.

Paul Smith
August 30th, 2009, 08:07 PM
First and foremost, I nor YMCA Indy SwimFit DO NOT "Control" teams/workout groups or clubs. YMCA Indy SwimFit is a YMCA sponsored program, with 2 Full Time Coaches and 8 Part Time Coaches, and all of the coaches are employees of the same YMCA. We use 3 YMCA facilities, 1 high school, and a university pool to accommodate the fitness swimmer, triathlete, and competitive masters swimmers who are members of our program. We offer 8 workouts a day Monday thru Friday and 2 on Saturday, with a coach on deck at all times. The workouts are provided by our Head Coach, and are the same at each location. It is not uncommon to have 30-40 swimmers in each of the two Saturday practices. We are a true "Club" by any one's definition, at this years LC Championship we had 17 swimmers who swam in their first Nationals and 23 swimmers who swam the relay day only. There are 5 other clubs in the Indianapolis area, three of them I have been working to develop Masters Programs for their membership within their facility. These clubs and their facilities see the value of having an adult aquatic fitness program for their members who have chosen aquatics as a means of exercise for a healthier lifestyle. Additionally, it has created an additional revenue stream for them during these tough economic times. Individual clubs create new membership and develop new leadership. In Indiana today we have 17+ Clubs, when we only used to have one and the US Masters Swimming membership growth in the LMSC is in direct correllation with number of new clubs. When it comes to club scoring everyone knows in a "Age Group" meet, the more swimmers you bring the more points you score. For example if Illinois Masters brought 200+ swimmers out of their 1500 membership there would be no way ISF could win...They didn't and we did...

Mel that is probably the most words you have written in one sitting in years...got your attentuon eh?

So let's talk some more...I think your organization is outstanding and a model for others to look at. However the debates that have raged here for YEARS about team scoring always go back to one distinction between combined teams and clubs...and that is a "true" club (others definition) is one that trains together at ONE facility.

So how "fair" is it that you have multiple satellite pools "combining" to swim at a club against someone like Walnut Creek?

By the way, who are the other masters teams that train in Indianapolis again?

GReater INdiana (GRIN)
State of Indiana
GRIN is not only the name of the LMSC, but it is also one of the registered clubs. Swimmers who join the GRIN club can swim for their local workout group within the GRIN LMSC boundary, but outside the GRIN LMSC boundary swimmers swim for the GRIN Club. The GRIN LMSC officers provide guidance for those swimmers who join the GRIN registered club. Local workout groups may have their own fees to cover expenses. If a swimmer wonders if there is a workout group near them, contact Babs Larsen, the GRIN LMSC Registrar for a contact.

Healthplex
Indianapolis, IN
Eileen Davis is the Healthplex Masters Swim Coach. To learn more about the program, contact Eileen at 560 West Poplar Street, Zionsville, IN 46077. She can also be reached by phone at 317-873-2367 or by email at edavis2@indy.rr.com.

Mel
August 30th, 2009, 09:30 PM
Okay, so let me get this straight...We have a 4 lane 25 yard pool at the Y, and we are servicing 25 members, and there are others who would like to participate, but we can not accommodate them...The HS across the street builds a 10 lane 50 M indoor pool and invites us to have our program in their facility, this then becomes a satellite pool and we are no longer a "club"...This becomes unfair to Walnut Creek because we have multiple pools...You gotta be kidding...We unfortunately do not have one pool owned by the city parks department where we could have multiple practices each day... While I realize you work out in the same pool every day... The YMCA has other programs that do not allow multiple scheduled Masters practices...The GRIN website is out of date (very unfortunate)...Franklin, Carmel, Greenwood, and Noblesville all have programs, these are small communities in and around Indianapolis....What many don't seem to understand, individual clubs build membership and leadership...If you have only 3 people on your team and are competitive and need 4th for a relay you will find one...Its not all about winning its about competing with people you workout with on a daily basis... We do that, all members of our program can go to any location at any time based on their work and family committments...A case in point...We provided 10 team banners for each of the two divisions "Club" and "Regional"....Interesting fact, all of the Club banners were picked up, only 3 Regional banners were picked up...The Regional Clubs have no definitive leadership and no one really wants the team award, because there is no place to put the banner or plaque or whatever...

Frank Thompson
August 31st, 2009, 11:01 AM
The Regional Clubs have no definitive leadership and no one really wants the team award, because there is no place to put the banner or plaque or whatever...

Mel:

I resent this statement and not just from by association with Michigan Masters. You managed to insult all these regional clubs such as North Carolina, Colorado, Arizona, Oregon, PNA, Georgia, New England, Wisconsin, Illinois, Minnestoa, SKY and any other Regional team that has competed at Nationals.

The Michigan Masters website is NOT out of date, very fortunate and from this team picture that is linked here http://www.michiganmasters.com/ I would not say that these swimmer really don't care about the team performance and the team banner.

cathykohn
August 31st, 2009, 04:18 PM
I apologize for my initial posting if anyone interpretted my remarks as a criticism of any particular "Club" or "Regional" team. That was not my intent. More power to any organization that can recruit enough members to win the Team Championship in either category.

My comment was strictly about fairness in scoring. I realize that the intent of the most recent attempt to solve this problem was to differentiate between "regional" teams and "Clubs". I have no quarrel with the application of the existing rule. Nevertheless, I think that the issue underlying every attempt to alter the "team Scoring" rules relating to Nationals is the injustice of small teams having to compete with meg-teams, whether they are "regional" or not.

I take no issue with the fact that Indy SwimFit is a "Club" team. Mel did a fabulous job of recruiting an amazing number of competitors for a city the size of Indy which fielded multiple other clubs as well. CONGRATULATIONS, Mel! (I believe that INDY SwimFir would have won the Team award no matter how it was classified.)

My commemts relate solely to the fact that the intent of the Rules, I think, is to prevent large teams from always overshadowing smaller teams. While there may never be a perfect rule, I believe that classifying teams strictly by number of participants is infinitely more fair than the current system.

And, yes, I am sometimes the only member of my Club at Nationals, as I was in Fresno this Spring, so team scoring is seldom an issue for my team to begin with. BUT FAIRNESS IS ALWAYS AN ISSUE...

Let's don't use this discussion as an excuse to pit any one Club against another.

jim clemmons
August 31st, 2009, 04:46 PM
Let's don't use this discussion as an excuse to pit any one Club against another.

Except against Paul's club...then anything goes.

:D

Paul Smith
August 31st, 2009, 05:34 PM
Let's don't use this discussion as an excuse to pit any one Club against another.

Cathy...this forum is all about picking fights and attacking people! :)

In all seriousness this is not piting anyone against another...however there has been a VERY long standing "tradition" if you will to bash "Regional" teams or so called "Super Teams" (such as Team TYR). Having been probably one of the few people who as ever swam with each type (Vail, RMM, TYR & now Arizona) I get a kick out of how some people approach the subject...

At least we haven't seen any coaches contact the meet director and try and to get some swimmers designated as "unattached" so they would qualify as a "small" team under the old system (and was one of the major tipping points that led to the dropping of that system).

Jim...go back to work and be quiet!

michaelmoore
September 1st, 2009, 01:02 AM
It is obvious that the new team scoring rules for National Championships has not achieved the purposes for which it was designed. . . .

I don't know why USMS abandoned the concept of Large Team/Small Team scoring years ago, but this concept would seem to work much more equitably. Some might argue that it is difficult to draw the line between large and small teams, but I think it becomes pretty obvious if you look at the Team Rosters from this year's meet.

. . .

If the Championship Committee made this determination prior to each Nationals after the entries closed, which is the way they used to do it, if I remember correctly, we would minimize the potential problems with setting an arbitrary immutable limit for all Nationals.

As one of the prime movers to get the system changed, I disagree with your premise. The new system is working exactly like it was intended to work. It allows the regional teams to compete with each other and it allows those local teams to compete with each other.

I see the MOVY took fifth place in the regional team division, I think you should have received a banner for your well deserved effort. In the last incarnation of how we computed team awards, MOVY would have taken 11th and received that thanks of the meet director but no banner.

You can go to many of the prior discussion forums about team scoring to get a history of what was liked and disliked about the scoring system that was in use at that time.

Having been on championship committee for a bunch of years, I have seen the committee and the host come up with demarkation lines for large, medium and small (would you like to tell me the difference between a team of 10 and team of 11. What happens when one swimmer does not show up. And of course as Paul brought up, there is the infamous case of the coach who wanted to have one of his swimmer swim unattached so that team could be in a smaller category).

While nothing is perfect and there is no doubt that there will be a call to tweak the scoring again, I think the current system will work for a few more years, if only because no one want to get to the HOD to try to argue for a different one :-) )

One last thing, the rule is to separate "Regional Teams," those teams that when they compete at local meets or LMSC Championships, compete as workout groups or sub groups from other teams. The nexus is how does the team compete in local/regional meets. Thus Mel can have his Indy Swim Fit as a local team, as it competes as its own team in local and regional meets and Arizona is a regional team as it compete as smaller groups in local meets.

-michael

waves101
September 2nd, 2009, 10:53 AM
All I can say is that I'm proud of our (Michigan Masters) Regional National Championship. All 45 members swam numerous events and relays to accomplish this feat and for that, I thank each and everyone of them.

Allen Stark
September 2nd, 2009, 01:57 PM
I am fine with the scoring as it is.For some reason our team.OREG doesn't travel well.When the meet is here or close we get a huge turn out(I think we had over 300 swimmers at our LCM last year),but there are just a few of us who go to LCM Nats regularly.We were 11th at both Indy and Fresno,If we had been 10th we definitely would have picked up our award.Even though we are spread over the state and don't travel well we are still an amazingly close team.

slowcat
September 2nd, 2009, 03:01 PM
I am fine with the scoring as it is as well. Two days into the meet, figure out where your team (regional, club, whatever) is in the standings. Then rally your teammates and try to improve on that.

carlos_fernandez
September 22nd, 2009, 08:46 AM
So let's talk some more...I think your organization is outstanding and a model for others to look at. However the debates that have raged here for YEARS about team scoring always go back to one distinction between combined teams and clubs...and that is a "true" club (others definition) is one that trains together at ONE facility.

So how "fair" is it that you have multiple satellite pools "combining" to swim at a club against someone like Walnut Creek?
Dude.

WCM has a 50 meter pool and a large diving well (8 lanes, 25m). They have a large program at a large facility.

You can't compare that to a team that uses 3+ pools w/ 6 lanes, sometimes less. I guarantee you that WCM has access to more lanes than some of these "regional" teams you're inventing.

A municipality is NOT a "region".

Brian Stack
September 22nd, 2009, 12:57 PM
Dude.

WCM has a 50 meter pool and a large diving well (8 lanes, 25m). They have a large program at a large facility.

You can't compare that to a team that uses 3+ pools w/ 6 lanes, sometimes less. I guarantee you that WCM has access to more lanes than some of these "regional" teams you're inventing.

A municipality is NOT a "region".
A bit of clarification:
The diving well at WC is a 6 lane 25 M Pool, have you forgotten already? The masters practices at WCM use 10 of the 20 lanes in the 50M pool, the rest of the pool is open for lap swimming all day

carlos_fernandez
September 22nd, 2009, 01:10 PM
A bit of clarification:
The diving well at WC is a 6 lane 25 M Pool, have you forgotten already?
I swam in that diving well once! But I stand corrected.


WC has something like 6 workouts/day. Try getting that many lanes (50? 60?) in one pool in a large urban area. One club = one pool simply doesn't work for every club.

Brian Stack
September 22nd, 2009, 06:57 PM
I swam in that diving well once! But I stand corrected.


WC has something like 6 workouts/day. Try getting that many lanes (50? 60?) in one pool in a large urban area. One club = one pool simply doesn't work for every club.
Actually it's: 5:45, 6:45, 10:30 AM, Noon, 7PM. (no PM on Friday, no regular Saturday or Sunday)
For sure I know what you're saying, you know our situation, but we're making it work!
FWIW, I liked the old system of nat's scoring, your team was who came to the meet for combined, men and women lg, med and small. You always knew that the home team had a big advantage for team honors, but only in one size category.