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qbrain
August 12th, 2009, 11:41 AM
I was reading up on training, and I came across a training methodology that goes like this.

Take your target event, for me the 200 free. Training speeds are dictated by your times two distances lower, for me the 50 and the 100, and two distances higher, 400/500 and the 800/1000. Warm up and cool down fall outside of this.

Compared to traditional training, this would be low yardage, high rest for most people.

Has anyone played around with this? Using my 100 split from my 1000 as my endurance pace would be much faster than what I am currently doing.

I like the concept because it gives so much guidance for training efforts, and retesting the levels is trivial.

That's it, I don't have much more detail than that. I can't find the article I read this in, but apparently this is a common training method for track.

pwb
August 13th, 2009, 11:08 AM
Michael -- the concept related to what affects your speed makes some sense, though I doubt a 1000 pace has that much influence on your 200. My question, though, is how this concept translates into workouts / sets?

ehoch
August 13th, 2009, 11:34 AM
I think it is a step in the right direction ...it will teach you to swim closer to race pace AND become more aware of what that means. Depending on your endurance level 1000 pace will be about 6-8 sec slower than 200 pace. You will need to adjust your intervals (more rest) or swim more easy stuff in between.

mctrusty
August 13th, 2009, 11:48 AM
Are you using the avg 100 from your 800/1000 as your threshold pace or as your "fast" training pace?

My A/T pace is usually pretty close to my in-season mile pace.

qbrain
August 13th, 2009, 02:12 PM
Michael -- the concept related to what affects your speed makes some sense, though I doubt a 1000 pace has that much influence on your 200. My question, though, is how this concept translates into workouts / sets?

I think I did a poor job explaining it. The T1000 would be my basis pace for endurance like work. For me, LCM, that would be 1:24s, and I currently do my endurance pace (En-1/2) at a 1:30 pace, so that would be quite a bump in effort.

The way I see this translate into workouts: there are two over distance, two under distance and two target event times. The two target event times are your current time and your target time. Endurance work would be done at greater than target event distance on the T1000 pace. Threshold work would be done at the T500 pace at the target distance. Tolerance would be done at the target current pace at the target distance, or the goal pace at sub target distance. Sprint (theshold and tolerance) work would be done at the T100 and T50 pace for 50/25 or 25/12.5 distances respectively.


I think it is a step in the right direction ...it will teach you to swim closer to race pace AND become more aware of what that means. Depending on your endurance level 1000 pace will be about 6-8 sec slower than 200 pace. You will need to adjust your intervals (more rest) or swim more easy stuff in between.

It is more than 6-8 seconds, but this method would require a lot more rest than I am used to, and a lot more 200s and 50s/25s. Seems like my training is made up of mostly longer stuff and 100s.


Are you using the avg 100 from your 800/1000 as your threshold pace or as your "fast" training pace?

My A/T pace is usually pretty close to my in-season mile pace.

It would replace my endurance pace. My T3000 pace would obviously be slower which, according to Maglischo, is a good way to determine A/T without blood testing.

What it boils down to, is a lot more "fast" work and a lot less over distance endurance work. I think this just throws out En-1 and En-2 work for the most part. Slow stuff is recovery.

It is worth noting that this is for training one target event, not trying to be ready to swim 800 races in 3 days. If you are training for a 2 minute race, how much time do you need to spend swimming long slow sets.

knelson
August 13th, 2009, 02:21 PM
It is more than 6-8 seconds

I'd say anything under 6 seconds is a pretty extreme distance swimmer. For me it's about a 6-7 second difference in pace. I'd imagine someone who considers themselves more of a middle-distance swimmer could easily be 8 seconds or more.

qbrain
August 13th, 2009, 03:10 PM
I'd say anything under 6 seconds is a pretty extreme distance swimmer. For me it's about a 6-7 second difference in pace. I'd imagine someone who considers themselves more of a middle-distance swimmer could easily be 8 seconds or more.

I am about 15 seconds difference between my T100 and T1000.

Maybe I should focus on endurance :)

Red60
August 13th, 2009, 04:05 PM
I am about 15 seconds difference between my T100 and T1000

Sorry to pose a dumb question. But can you define T100 and T1000?

SolarEnergy
August 13th, 2009, 04:24 PM
I am not sure if I'd use T1000 as a basis for establishing threshold swim pace. I might favor the good old Critical Swim Speed concept which has been tested quite a lot over years http://www.swimsmooth.com/training.html (locate *Lactate Threshold, Threshold and CSS* in the middle, there's even a handy calculator).

That being said, for a sprinter that doesn't matter very much. T1000 is still within the Threshold spectrum.

Now, as for your suggestion to increase rest time for sprint workouts :applaud: :applaud: :applaud:

If there's one thing with which master swimmer's coaches in general tend to have a lot of difficulty with, it's with Work/Rest calibration for sprint workouts. They never give you enough time to properly rest, and very often, what they which would be a sprint set turns out to be an other Vo2Max or Threshold set due to lack of rest.

mctrusty
August 13th, 2009, 04:49 PM
Sorry to pose a dumb question. But can you define T100 and T1000?

T1000 = timed 1000, in theory swum at the fastest pace you can hold for that distance.

Jazz Hands
August 13th, 2009, 10:51 PM
I don't get it. Train faster and slower but not at race speed? Mixing up paces is a fine idea, but I wouldn't just skip the target. What's the rationale?

psyncw
August 13th, 2009, 11:10 PM
I didn't understand it either. Can you explain it by using examples? what the set what be, the interval, and what time you should go? thanks

Chris Stevenson
August 14th, 2009, 07:10 AM
I don't get it. Train faster and slower but not at race speed? Mixing up paces is a fine idea, but I wouldn't just skip the target. What's the rationale?

I think the two bracketing races give upper and lower limits for training speeds on most sets. Target race pace would be included.

qbrain
August 15th, 2009, 12:38 PM
I think the two bracketing races give upper and lower limits for training speeds on most sets. Target race pace would be included.

Yes, Chris is right. The 5 timed swims just setup 5 goal times for practice.


I didn't understand it either. Can you explain it by using examples? what the set what be, the interval, and what time you should go? thanks

I am going to make up some times for easy math.

T50: 25
T100: 58
Target 200: 1:56 (split 28, 29.5, 29.5, 29)
T200: 2:00 (1:00)
T400: 4:40 (1:10)
T800: 9:52 (1:14)

Example sets
10x100s on 1:30 hold T800
10x100s on 2:00 hold T400
10x100s on 5:00 hold T200
10x50s on 1:00 hold 29 to touch or 29.5 to feet (race pace)
10x25s on 1:00 hold sub 12 to touch

Obviously, I am not going to be writing an interesting book of workouts any time soon.

Now, I have no idea how to combine these levels together into intelligent workouts and an intelligent season. I am really still kicking this idea around in my head and since competitive swim training theory isn't a popular topic at dinner parties, I dumped out some poorly formed thought here to see what kind of feedback I would get.

psyncw
August 15th, 2009, 02:48 PM
Thanks for the examples! The team I swim with will do the first set, or 200's on 3, or 300's on 4:30. It would be great to do the next two sets, but my teammates would say that it is too easy, ie too much rest. We do some 50's sometimes but usually on a faster interval as well. I would have to work out on my own to do the sets with more rest.

Chris Stevenson
August 15th, 2009, 03:27 PM
So I guess if you want to target the 200 fly as a focus event you'll need to be doing a timed 500 and 1000 fly at least once. Oh rapture.

qbrain
August 15th, 2009, 04:07 PM
So I guess if you want to target the 200 fly as a focus event you'll need to be doing a timed 500 and 1000 fly at least once. Oh rapture.

That brings up an interesting point. In traditional training, we don't have any problem doing over distance free, but rarely does anyone do any over distance stroke.

Instead of doing a T500 and T1000 fly, you could do a timed 30 minute fly to get your threshold pace as Maglischo suggests, and base your training around that :)

quicksilver
August 15th, 2009, 06:09 PM
That brings up an interesting point. In traditional training, we don't have any problem doing over distance free, but rarely does anyone do any over distance stroke.



Ande has a mean 500 backstroke.

qbrain
August 15th, 2009, 06:22 PM
Ande has a mean 500 backstroke.

Are you trying to tell me that Ande is typical? :)

quicksilver
August 15th, 2009, 09:28 PM
Nope. He's got a very decent 1,000 yard back too. :)

Yep pretty ordinary. How about that Baker fellow who swims a mean 1,650 butterfly.

Sam Perry
August 15th, 2009, 11:54 PM
One year 4 of us did a 4 X 1 hour medley relay. Our butterflier swam an hour of butterflier, never stopping or breaking stroke. I think he went between 4,200 and 4,300 yards. I swam backstroke (imagine that) and had one wicked sundburn with goggle eyes on my face.

SolarEnergy
August 16th, 2009, 09:44 AM
Instead of doing a T500 and T1000 fly, you could do a timed 30 minute fly to get your threshold pace as Maglischo suggests, and base your training around that :) It's exactly what I do, and it works fine. I train for 200 butterfly, I do a lot of base mileage at this stroke.

Let me tell you though, you don't need complex testing protocol. Energy expenditure can be so great while swimming butterfly that you very quickly get to know what your critical swim speed (threshold pace) is. Currently, I can swim forever (1k, 2k, whatever) on a 2min per 100m pace, I can hold a 1:45 per 100m pace for 200-400m. My high range threshold speed is around 1:55/100m pace. At this speed, given that I am well rested, I could perform a T1000 test.

marksman
August 17th, 2009, 10:50 PM
This thread just makes me realize how I really am avoiding doing any race pace training. I used to love max effort swims.