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swoomer
August 21st, 2009, 11:08 PM
Do lead off free relay splits count for everyone, or do they just count for TT if they qualify? I'm waiting for these to show up in my personal data base, and so far, they haven't. These were PB's for me and I'd like to see them on my resume. Do I have to do anything else to make this happen? In light of the many relays at Indy, I can understand if this sort of thing may be taking extra time.

Frank Thompson
August 22nd, 2009, 12:53 PM
Swommer:

I believe the Indy meet has already been submitted to the Top Times data base. I believe the data base can only pick up times from completed events in the meet and does not pick up splits unless a special section in the meet results has that set up and then it could pick it up.

Meet times from completed events get picked up automatically and since relay splits are not completed events and only relay times would be picked up as the completed event. There are no relays in the Top Times data base so I don't know how the splits of the relays plus the final time would get in there.

On page 17 of the 2009 LC Meet program book it states that all relay leadoff split requests will be submitted on behalf of the swimmers automatically for Records and Top Ten. This excludes backstroke events were a split is not the finish of the actual stroke race. It said nothing about submitting them to the Top Times data base, which is not an official USMS Top Ten data base but a meet data base that Meet Directors turn in there results.

The only way I see those times getting into the top times data base is for someone to set up a meet file and submit the times individually to the data base. I organized and coached 42 relays that swam in the meet and of those relays I think about 50% wanted there relays splits to count for Top Ten. We had one World Record split that has been automatically picked up for a record and was .05 faster than the individual event time, which missed the WR by .01 and the slower individual event time is the time currently in the top times data base. The swimmer I am discussing here is Kevin Doak, who set a WR leading off the 200 Medley at :26.64 and going :26.69 the next day in the actual event of 50 back to miss his one day old record and the current FINA record before the meet at :26.68 and the :26.69 time is the one in the top times data base.

orca1946
August 22nd, 2009, 01:31 PM
Thanx for the info!

Chris Stevenson
August 22nd, 2009, 02:31 PM
Do lead off free relay splits count for everyone, or do they just count for TT if they qualify? I'm waiting for these to show up in my personal data base, and so far, they haven't. These were PB's for me and I'd like to see them on my resume.

Skip gave a great explanation but just to be clear:

-- the relay leadoff splits were official times (assuming no DQ). I checked on this at the meet and was told I didn't need to fill out the split request form. So they "count" in any sense of the word as part of your swimming resume.

-- the relay leadoff times will be submitted for TT consideration

-- the relay leadoff times are not currently part of the Meet Result Database which (in case it wasn't clear from Skip's explanation) is a totally separate database from TT times.

The consequence of this latter fact is that your leadoff times won't show up when you click on "My USMS" or do something similar. Hopefully they will show up at some point but it is not trivial to do, especially with as many relays as we had at nationals.

I am constantly frustrated by the lack of connection between the two databases, but the basic source of the disconnect is that the results in the Meet Results Database are not subject to the same level of verification/scrutiny as Top Ten submissions (eg to check if someone was a USMS member at the time of the swim, to check the age, or spelling of the name, or ID number...all things that routinely have mistakes in typical meet results with manual entry). At some point in the (distant?) future there will be only one database and this will all go away, but we aren't there yet.

swoomer
August 22nd, 2009, 03:17 PM
Chris, so what you are saying is that I'm out of luck again. This question was specifically asked on my behalf at the general meeting prior to the meet because these swims were important to me. The answer was that lead off freestyle relay splits would count as individual swims automatically, no paperwork necessary. Was anyone else there and did they hear the same thing?

I feel cheated.

Chris Stevenson
August 22nd, 2009, 04:11 PM
Chris, so what you are saying is that I'm out of luck again. This question was specifically asked on my behalf at the general meeting prior to the meet because these swims were important to me. The answer was that lead off freestyle relay splits would count as individual swims automatically, no paperwork necessary.

They do count, they are just not in the Meet Results database yet. I am not connected to the meet officials and don't know if they have plans to submit them. I seem to recall in the past that, after a few weeks, the times would appear.

From my understanding, the software that adds the times to the database automatically discounts splits and leadoffs. When I submit such a meet, when there is a split request then I add that split as a separate event (a time trial) before submitting the file. If the nationals people do something similar (there are probably other ways), it will take them some time to do, given that there were more relays at this meet than the typical nationals.

swoomer
August 22nd, 2009, 06:55 PM
Thanks, Chris, for further clarification. I can't imagine the data that has to be mined, considering the sheer numbers of relays. The delay is understandable if it has to be done basically manually. I guess I need to be patient......never easy.

fatboy
August 22nd, 2009, 07:18 PM
Swoomer
Congratulations on your PB's. Hope they make it into your resume.

Frank Thompson
August 22nd, 2009, 07:40 PM
Swoomer:

I am going to find out if the relay splits will be included in the top times data base. According to the Top Times data base, there were 559 relays entered in the meet with 26 DQs and 24 scratches/no shows. So from this 509 times have to be entered and if it has to be done manually I don't know if it will get done. Chris made an interesting point that the Top Ten data base and the Top Times data have a lack of connection and Top Ten data base is much more scrutinized for verification then the top times data base which picks up the full meet results and lists them even if names are misspelled, times might not be correct, and there may not be current year registration numbers. The Top Ten Recorder basically reviews all of the meet data and makes sure the USMS requirements are checked where the Meet Results data base is not checked for these same things.

If no one from the meet submitted the times, I am thinking the only way they will get in to the data base is for someone to create a meet file with the splits and submitting them. I am thinking of doing that for the swimmers in the Michigan Relays that wanted there splits to count but I will find out if I am allowed do that because this is a National meet and maybe only the national personal are allowed to do that.

What is interesting is that there are a lot of swimmers that use the Top Times data base to keep track of how they did in the Top XXX. Some swimmers can't make the Top Ten and this is there way to see how close they came and where they stack up in there age group in all the events they swim. Plus, like you said, once you are in there it becomes part of your swimming history in your personal USMS swimming resume.

matysekj
August 23rd, 2009, 01:07 PM
The meet results database tools that run your individual results listings and the current event rankings on this site do not yet pick up lead-off relay splits as individual swims. The relay split data IS stored in the database so when tool updates are done, we WILL be able to add lead-off relay splits as individual swims also. This update has not yet been scheduled, but it will be done when resources become available.

The plans are to add the ability to blanket add all relay lead-off splits as individual swims for a selected meet. I don't believe this is possible under our rules for all meets, as relay lead-off splits must be explicitly requested for a given meet or swim. As someone said before, the blanket authorization has been provided for recent nationals, so they will be covered.

In addition to this, we will be adding the ability for a swimmer to request an individual lead-off split to be added as a separate swim. This will apply to intermediate distances in either individual or relay events. Such requests will need to be approved before showing up as individual swims in the public displays.

Regarding Chris' statement about the top 10 and meet results database data being completely separate, well that's not entirely true for all LMSC's. I personally submit the top 10 data for two LMSC's and it comes entirely from the meet results database. I know that some other LMSC's do this also. We are currently in a pilot program allowing a number of LMSC's to use the tools for this. There are more features needed in the tools prior to this program becoming the de facto method of creating top 10 lists, but it is much closer than Chris' writing implied in my opinion. For instance, his examples of "eg to check if someone was a USMS member at the time of the swim, to check the age, or spelling of the name, or ID number" -- these features are ALL in place in the meet results database.