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View Full Version : Should Masters Hold a Short Course Meters National Championship?



Rob Copeland
July 3rd, 2003, 05:36 PM
As a follow-up to a thread in progress: Should Masters Hold a Short Course Meters National Championship?

Bert Petersen
July 3rd, 2003, 06:36 PM
Rob......it says LC Yards. SC Yards maybe ?

Paul Smith
July 4th, 2003, 06:12 PM
Rob, thanks for getting this set up. Bert, we're still on for our own SCM fly championship if w can't get this thing going!

Backstrokers not invited, backstroke is very, very bad!!!

Bert Petersen
July 5th, 2003, 01:36 AM
Paul; it isn't so much that backstroke is "bad", it is just that backstroke is so far down the list...........
You see, there is a natural hierarchy in swimming strokes which many are not aware of.
The bottom feeders are, of course, breast-strokers; since it isn't a real stroke anyway. In Europe and Asia, that is what they teach children who cannot master any other stroke. Next up are those poor devils, the backstrokers. I've heard it said that men are from Mars, women from Venus and backstrokers are from Uranus. Whatever that means..... Next come distance freestylers, with a sub-grouping of 200 flyers and 400 IM'ers included. Up another rung and you find the freestyle sprinters........and, naturally, at the apex - the creme-de-la-creme of swimming, sprint flyers.
So now you know the ranking system.
I don't make this stuff up, you know ! ;)

Leonard Jansen
July 7th, 2003, 10:14 AM
Bert -

Since you've obviously hit your head on the edge of the pool too often, your confusion is understandable. At the apex are Open Water swimmers. I have two masters degree in science so you can trust me on this.

-LBJ

Matt S
July 7th, 2003, 02:28 PM
Ladies & Gentlemen,

I ah, harrump, have devised a scientifically reproducable index that takes into account all the REALLY significant factors contributing to TRULY great swimming. It includes things like length and quality of workouts, VO2 Max Uptake stats, mean lactic acid load and standard deviation, a comparison of a representative sampling of swimmers with idealized stroke mechanics demonstrated in the TI video tapes, median IQ measurements of coaches, normed for nationality, a measurement of aesthetic pleasingness while wearing competitive swimming attire ... {WHO PUT THAT IN THERE?! WILBER!! Where are you hiding?} ...

Anyway, the numbers are in, and they clearly demonstrate that distance freestylers and butterflyers rule, and the shorter the races and less butterfly content in them, the more the alleged participants drool. It's scientifically reproducable; just look for our infomercial on the Botox Channel.

M. Graham Shirley, BA, MA, JD
Dept. Head, Bovine Eschatology
Watsamatta U.

swimr4life
July 7th, 2003, 05:16 PM
:rolleyes: Gentlemen!.... Why can't we all get along?! ;) Are we straying a bit from the topic?

Paul Smith
July 8th, 2003, 08:02 AM
And now back to the subject! As the poll shows, this is clearly an event worth consideration by USMS. Thanks to Mr. Copeland a proposal is going to be submitted!

By the way, although the numbers are small I'd be curious to hear why anyone would not want to have a 3rd national championship held in SCM format?

Phil Arcuni
July 8th, 2003, 03:48 PM
OK Paul, I'll bite. I was one of the few (the proud . . .) who voted SCM or SCY but not both.

First, I know myself best, and generalize to others from that. I am not able, because of family and work and money, to travel to more than one national meet a year. If I am at all typical that means that many swimmers will have to choose which meets to attend, and which meets to not attend. This will reduce the number of swimmers at the meets and reduce the competitiveness of the current two national championships. That would make all of the meets less attractive and less fun to attend. It would also reduce my justification when I brag at the company lunch table. "Well yeah, there were only four swimmers in the event . . ." In that scenario the top ten list becomes even more a measure of 'how well' one is swimming. And while I like the top ten list, it is pretty impersonal and not as fun as a competitive championship.

There are lots of good SCM meets already. For me these have/could include the SPMA meet, Pacific championships, and the IGLA world championships, all of which are relatively close to where I live. It think it is valuable to have quality local meets and a championship would reduce their importance and competitiveness. These meets are a good opportunity to get new swimmers involved, and mixing with 'elite' swimmers, without qualifying times.

There is no way I could attend a meet in December. Work and family are just too intense at that time. I find it difficult to figure out when the meet could be held outside of that time. I like to work out hard, when I get a chance to work out, and more big meets would force taper on me more than I would like. A third meet would interfere with some team activities in the winter that I find enjoyable.

I do not have the time to run one of these championship meets, and find it difficult to ask another person to do the work for me. We have already heard how difficult it is to get hosts for these meets. Going back to my first point, for the hosts it is not clear if a smaller meet (more feasible, less work) is better or worse than a larger meet (more income), so a third meet may make it easier or harder to get the other two hosted - that is a big unknown.

If anything, I would prefer getting rid of SCY championships altogether, and replace them with a SCM meet. That would get us in line with the rest of the world and increase the quality of the world records. But I am not much of a traditionalist.

Finally, I swim both sprint and distance fly, *and* backstroke. Both the high and the low, I suppose. I never did like to be stereotyped.

seltzer
July 9th, 2003, 08:37 AM
I'll chime in to support Phil's position. I don't believe that under the current national championship format that USMS can support three quality national championships per year. Having said that, I think there is great merit in giving bidders for SCY Championships the option of offering the SCM (we would then rename then Short Course Championship). I believe that quite a few swimmers (me included) would welcome the chance to swim SCM head-to-head against fellow SCM competitors--at a national meet.

Add New England to the regions that currently offer a high quality SCM regional meet. Last year, we had 300+ competitors and our SCM meets are growing at better than 10% a year. And it just so happens that in my age group (50-54) the regional competiton is very intense--so I can't really complain about lack of head-to-head competition.

Matt S
July 9th, 2003, 02:04 PM
Phil,

Just a quick response, and I don't think we disagree on too many points. I see the basis for your concern about too many National meets sucking dry our volunteer base. I have several observations:
1st, for the near term I am willing to bet that "SCM Nationals" will in fact be one of the many good regional SCM meets you mentioned, with the label of "USMS SCM Championships" stuck on it. Same meet, same people running it, new gloss for the pre-meet publicity, moderately increasing number of swimmers as SCM Nationals are taken more seriously with each passing year. It will be a while before we see a substantial difference.
2nd, I agree a third USMS National meet might siphon off swimmers from the other two. At least in the case of SCY Nationals, I view that as a good thing. I'm with you, I like LCM. But, let's face facts, most Masters swimmers love SC formats. I can go to LCM Nationals, and not feel like Rodney Dangerfield dropped into the middle of the PGA Championships, but if I go to SCY Nationals, I know the field will bury me. I can swim my heart out, finishing 38th out of 44, or swim my usual, and finish 40th, or show-up sick, sleep-deprived and hung-over, and finish 42nd. I know that is not representative of my ability; I know where I stack-up among Masters swimmers in general. But, lots of people my speed (i.e. not meeting NQT's) do not bother with SCY Nationals because there is no meaningful competition for us. If some of the middle of the pack competition gets spread out among three USMS Nationals, it may make these events more accessible for more swimmers.
3rd, I do not agree that a smaller meet is just as hard to run as a full-blown, USMS Nationals extravaganza. If it was, why are there some many regional meets and Zone Championships which are middlin' large run at the same places every year? These meets are not burning out the local volunteer base. Why should one more middlin' large meet that rotates location burn out the national volunteer base?
4th, I do, however, share your concern that we not burn-out our volunteer base. At some point SCM Nationals could get big enough to be a burden comparable to the other two Nationals, and will we be able to find three groups of suckers, er... heroes willing to take on this task? Let me humbly suggest that if USMS gets big enough to run three annual events the size of LCM Nationals or bigger, we will probably be generating enough revenue to hire professionals to do some of the labor intensive drudgery behind a Nationals meet.

As far as the December time frame is concerned, I see your point. But, let me suggest that there is no time frame anywhere in the calendar that does not conflict, at least a little, with other major life commitments. In May, the kids are still in school, or if they are in college taking Finals or moving out of the dorms, and there are potential conflicts with Easter or Mothers' Day. August is prime-time family vacation time, and some schools start up again well before Labor Day. Early December ain't great, but what is? Looking at this purely from a swimming point of view, Dec is just about perfect if you prefer metric formats. The big problem with doing SCY and LCM both, is that the late finish for SCY really compresses the LCM season. If in contrast you can do LCM followed by SCM, you get a two-fer benefit. First, you get a nice long 7+ month season to prep for LCM's, and then, while you are still in shape, before the Holidays really bite (or before you bite them, as the case may be), you get to take a run at SCM, AND all you have to give up is SCY Nationals. This is a really good deal if you like meters!

So, I follow what you are saying, mostly agree with it, but differ as to whether the "problems" you see are good things, or bad.

Matt

laineybug
July 9th, 2003, 03:02 PM
Just one other word about the December time frame. I don't know how many educators are master swimmers, but I'm betting there are quite a few. If their systems are anything like mine a meet held in the middle of December would be impossible to attend as employees are not allowed to take personal leave before a scheduled holiday. The week after Christmas would probably be perfect for educators as most have not returned to work then. Of course there will never be a 'perfect' time for every masters swimmer.

Bert Petersen
July 9th, 2003, 03:02 PM
Matt......you nailed it !

MetroSwim
July 9th, 2003, 04:38 PM
Here's a thought - what if USMS were to hold a single short course National championship, alternating each year between SCY and SCM?

Rob Copeland
July 9th, 2003, 05:26 PM
As our rules stand today, Short Course national can be either 25 Yards or 25 Meters and must be conducted between April 15 and May 31.

The suggested time frame of mid-November through December was presented so that it wasn’t too close to either of the existing nationals and to coincide with the 12/31 Top 10 submission deadline for SCM.

Allen Stark
July 12th, 2003, 10:52 PM
First to Bert,just because some people can't whip kick is no reason to cast aspersions on the most elegant stroke!
Second, I don't think december is a good time to have a SCM Championship. It is too close to the holidays, for me at least, to plan to travel across country.Perhaps between october 15 & november 10 would work. I'd certainly like to see another big meet where swimming was more important than turning.

Paul Smith
July 14th, 2003, 05:58 PM
Although there are no perfect scenarios, it appears that there is quite a bit of support/interest in adding a third national championship to USMS's calender.

I'm sure there are more challenges and headaches than can be imagined (thanks for sharing that with me at the end of a painful 100m free Michael!), but I like to look at this with a "glass is half full" mindset and see if we can do it vs. rule it out because of its challenges!

cjr
July 17th, 2003, 05:36 PM
Greetings-

One thought why it might be a good idea to have a SCM Champinship would be it may encourage more participation. Not many people have the opportunity to swim in SCM, so this might be an incentive to have it.

Just one man's opinion.

Thanks,
CJ:D

DocG
July 17th, 2003, 08:11 PM
For what it's worth, I personally would like to see the SCM and SCY seasons switched. This would allow people an opportunity to age up and swim SCM while still underage and allow them to go for records, and would allow more people to age up by SCY season. It would also get us in sync with SCM seasons in other countries and be an easier transition than going from SCY to LCM.

Beards247
July 28th, 2003, 10:02 AM
I didn't vote, But think having three nationals in three different time slots is not realistic.

For those of you pointing a finger at the poll results saying "there is a desire" are only looking at popularity side of the equation. LC Nationals in Rutgers deadline was delayed b/c they needed more swimmers to pay for the meet. We do not need yet a third event to dillute this pool further.

I have a separate idea which I am posting in its own thread. Click Here (http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1615) to read about my suggestion to hold SCY and SCM Championships at the same time.

allswims
September 2nd, 2003, 10:39 PM
I voted for the SCM National Championship between 11/15 and 12/31 because I think it would be a good opportunity for swimmers who want to go to a National meet at that time or who do not have a local meet they can or want to attend. There are good quality SCM meets all over and I don't think having a SCM National meet will change that. There are also good quality SCY meets too. People will go where they can when they can and may not go every year - regardless of whether we are talking about SCY, LCM or SCM. I think it's a good idea to have more choices for people regarding meets. The zone, LMSC championships and other great meets vary in timing from mid-October to mid-December now. Leave the timing as is. I like swimming SCY in the winter/spring (the only pools open here are SCY - and a few SCM but not many), LCM in the summer (the only time when LC pools are open here in the chilly Northeast) and SCM season in the fall/winter (as discussed above, a few pools are SCM but you are also still working off the LCM base you built in the summer).

lefty
September 3rd, 2003, 01:28 PM
Holding the meet from November 15th to December 31st? Man that would be one long meet.

Peter Cruise
September 3rd, 2003, 11:55 PM
Nothing could seem longer than Baltimore LCNATS (existentially speaking)...

realAlbertan
October 6th, 2014, 09:59 PM
Bump.

Undeniable
October 7th, 2014, 12:11 AM
As long as it wouldn't siphon resources away from the SCY and LCM national meets, I would say go ahead and do it. We do seem to get along fine without a SCM national meet, though.

Or instead of a third USMS national meet, maybe try something different: maybe coordinate with Canadian Masters to have a bi-yearly North American championship meet in SCM? Have it in the fall at a time that doesn't interfere with thanksgiving or Christmas, and have it in even years so it meshes nicely with pan ams. Also include Mexican Masters...I'm assuming Mexico has a masters swimming body?

Just a thought...I have no idea how these things are actually put together!

orca1946
October 7th, 2014, 12:04 PM
I think that time frame would attract less swimmers because of work/holiday timing.

Karl_S
October 7th, 2014, 03:32 PM
...
Or instead of a third USMS national meet, maybe try something different: maybe coordinate with Canadian Masters to have a bi-yearly North American championship meet in SCM? Have it in the fall at a time that doesn't interfere with thanksgiving or Christmas, and have it in even years so it meshes nicely with pan ams. Also include Mexican Masters...I'm assuming Mexico has a masters swimming body?

Just a thought...I have no idea how these things are actually put together!
like this idea.

sunruh
October 7th, 2014, 03:44 PM
As long as it wouldn't siphon resources away from the SCY and LCM national meets, I would say go ahead and do it. We do seem to get along fine without a SCM national meet, though.

Or instead of a third USMS national meet, maybe try something different: maybe coordinate with Canadian Masters to have a bi-yearly North American championship meet in SCM? Have it in the fall at a time that doesn't interfere with thanksgiving or Christmas, and have it in even years so it meshes nicely with pan ams. Also include Mexican Masters...I'm assuming Mexico has a masters swimming body?

Just a thought...I have no idea how these things are actually put together!

this is really cool, but do you hold it before thanksgiving or after (because after makes training through thanksgiving tough) and then there is taking work vacation on top of holiday vacation at basically the same time. good luck explaining that to the family. lol.
still really like the idea. like a North America championships, but without the long pool, however how many scm pools are there in the usa that could handle a big meet? it might have to be in the middle/end of a 50m pool and a bulkhead.

Allen Stark
October 7th, 2014, 04:35 PM
this is really cool, but do you hold it before thanksgiving or after (because after makes training through thanksgiving tough) and then there is taking work vacation on top of holiday vacation at basically the same time. good luck explaining that to the family. lol.
still really like the idea. like a North America championships, but without the long pool, however how many scm pools are there in the usa that could handle a big meet? it might have to be in the middle/end of a 50m pool and a bulkhead.
In 1989 there was a Pan Pacific Masters SCM meet at Indy.It was a great meet that basically rewrote the record book(I was under the WRs in the BRs and got 2 3rds and a 2nd,granted this was the first major SCM meet and the records were soft.) Indy certainly could host this meet.

Swimosaur
October 7th, 2014, 04:41 PM
... bi-yearly North American championship meet in SCM?

There is already a biennial hemispheric LCM Pan American Masters Championships, unfortunately often far away, but held in Sarasota in 2013. Next edition is June 2015 in Medellin, Columbia.

As for an SCM nats, there are currently two fairly big late-season SCM meets on the coasts in December. The NE SCM Championships is in Boston, and the SPMS SCM Championships is in Long Beach (are they always there?). Each meet attracts on the order of 500 swimmers. If you wanna go to a big, exciting SCM in meet in December, there you go.

Karl_S
October 7th, 2014, 05:12 PM
As for an SCM nats, there are currently two fairly big late-season SCM meets on the coasts in December. The NE SCM Championships is in Boston, and the SPMS SCM Championships is in Long Beach (are they always there?). Each meet attracts on the order of 500 swimmers. If you wanna go to a big, exciting SCM in meet in December, there you go.
As much as I think the idea of a NorAm SCM meet sounds great, I think this is a key issue.

Karlene
October 7th, 2014, 10:21 PM
From the USMS National Championship webpage: "U.S. Masters Swimming holds two national championship pool meets each year. The spring championships are held in April or May and are contested in a short course venue." Note that this does not specify short course yards. There doesn't appear to be any reason why our Spring National Championship couldn't be a SCM meet and I think it would be great if a future bid was for SCM.

jpetyk
October 8th, 2014, 12:37 PM
http://dailynews.openwaterswimming.com/2014/10/cold-icy-and-happy-at-winter-swimming.html

Here is a 25 meter alternative....:chillpill:

Karlene
October 8th, 2014, 06:04 PM
I think the reason is that there are very few venues that could provide 2 courses of SCM at the same time.

The primary pools that my team uses are 50m x 25 yards. They could certainly be configured as SCM, but only 1 course, as they are for our small local team meets.

The pools can certainly be configured to have 2 courses of 25 yards at the same time.

As Allen previously mentioned, IUPUI in Indianapolis can run two 25 meter courses. The point I was trying to make is that USMS rules allow for the spring nationals to be either SCY or SCM. And if a viable bid was submitted with two SCM courses, I'd hope that the Championship Committee would seriously consider it as an attractive alternative to the same old boring SCY.

Undeniable
October 10th, 2014, 09:58 AM
http://dailynews.openwaterswimming.com/2014/10/cold-icy-and-happy-at-winter-swimming.html

Here is a 25 meter alternative....:chillpill:

That's COMPLETELY NUTS! (I may have to go!) :D

Bill Sive
October 12th, 2014, 01:10 PM
Rob, what is the motivation for USMS to do this?

amj119
October 16th, 2014, 03:49 PM
I think this is a good idea. Especially, since in certain areas of the country, some pools are just 25 meters. In Wisconsin, we have a SCM State Championships in December. There aren't as many that attend, but it's nice to have the option.

rodent
October 21st, 2014, 09:34 PM
It might not be a well attended National Championship, but you won't know unless we hold it! Maybe it could be held every other year.

mmlr38
October 23rd, 2014, 07:14 AM
Count me as another person who would like to see a SCM National Championship meet.

ande
October 23rd, 2014, 02:05 PM
Should Masters Hold a Short Course Meters National Championship?

Absolutely!