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ande
September 21st, 2009, 11:38 PM
USMS Suit Rules

Saturday, September 19, 2009
Suit Debacle - USMS Convention Edition
**UPDATE: Click here for a scan of some of what was voted on

Ok so I just got out of the final meeting of this year's house of delegates. The last action item was, dun dun dun.... swimsuits. It finally happened. Up until this point hardly anyone mentioned it, it was like bringing up religion or politics in casual conversation... not a good idea. Once the floor opened up the comments got pretty hot for a little while.

2 major things went down here but I will forewarn you that all this may be completely meaningless depending on how things go down next week with the FINA Masters Technical Committee.

1st off, the USMS rules committee proposed suit restrictions. THIS IS A RECOMMENDATION NOT A RULE!!! The short version is men and women get the same suits, shoulder to knee in textile (the definition of which is tbd). Zippers and drawstrings are allowed. Modesty suits are still ok and taping is only allowed for medical reasons.

2nd we voted on how long to keep suits in regards to short course yards season. In case you forgot we're the only country that bothers with SCY. The 2 choices that people were voting for were:
1. dropping the tech suits as soon as the FINA Masters swim wear rule is adopted
2. Keep tech suits for SCY until June 1st (when SCY season ends) or later if FINA adopts no standard.

The vote was much closer than I would have expected. 101 to 93 in favor of dropping the suits earlier rather than later. Boo. I still think FINA has plenty of flip flop left in it and this was probably a whole lot of fighting for nothing. We'll see how it goes down. From what I understand we still get to ride out the rest of SCM season in techsuits.

More info will be coming out on this in the next couple of weeks, but I want to remind you all again that this still doesn't mean anything per se. There are a lot of variables floating around, but I wanted to share what's gone down so far.

Argue amongst yourselves, I have a banquet to get to!

from
http://www.robaquatics.com/2009/09/suit-debacle-usms-convention-edition.html

rodent
September 22nd, 2009, 10:54 AM
I think it's a fair compromise!

orca1946
September 22nd, 2009, 11:30 AM
This is what I have said for a whule. Both genders wear the same amount of material!

ande
September 22nd, 2009, 11:48 AM
I hope
1) USMS suit rules for LCM & SCM match FINAs &
2) we get to wear full body B70's all SCM season

carlos_fernandez
September 22nd, 2009, 12:11 PM
Ok. Now I'm thoroughly confused.

I could have sworn I read on these boards yesterday or Sunday that USMS was going to ban the tech suits on 10/1/09, that we could only wear jammers to the knees.

The Fortress
September 22nd, 2009, 12:15 PM
Ok. Now I'm thoroughly confused.

I could have sworn I read on these boards yesterday or Sunday that USMS was going to ban the tech suits on 10/1/09, that we could only wear jammers to the knees.

Chris S. gave a very thorough explanation of what was decided at convention on the "what should usms do about the suits" thread.

I think you're referring to USA-S.

jim clemmons
September 22nd, 2009, 12:15 PM
Ok. Now I'm thoroughly confused.

I could have sworn I read on these boards yesterday or Sunday that USMS was going to ban the tech suits on 10/1/09, that we could only wear jammers to the knees.

One thing I learned early on re: some posts on this board, Carlos, is that they may not be correct. I saw the same one you're referring to and decided to let it pass. Some folks get USMS and USAS confused.

jim clemmons
September 22nd, 2009, 12:46 PM
I hope
1) USMS suit rules for LCM & SCM match FINAs &
2) we get to wear full body B70's all SCM season

I think Masters should conclude both SCM and SCY seasons in current suits as some swims have already taken place with them in various parts of the country regardless of what's decided by other governing bodies. That would be the end of December, 2009 for SCM and end of May, 2010, for SCY.

ande
September 22nd, 2009, 12:53 PM
here's links chris' posts:


Okay, I have an update from Convention about the suits.
The FINA Masters Technical Committee is meeting Sept 25-26. USMS decided to send a recommendation (thru our umbrella organization USAS) and it was due this morning. The recommendation was, I believe, crafted by the USMS Rules Committee. To sum up:
-- textile only (to be defined later, I guess)
-- same coverage for men and women: knees to shoulder, no sleeves or neck
-- zippers allowed
-- limits of thickness (0.8mm) and buoyancy (0.5N) and permeability of material (80L/m^2/s)

U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums - View Single Post - What should USMS do about the suits?


U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums - View Single Post - What should USMS do about the suits?


U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums - View Single Post - What should USMS do about the suits?


U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums - View Single Post - What should USMS do about the suits?


U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums - View Single Post - What should USMS do about the suits?


U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums - View Single Post - What should USMS do about the suits?


U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums - View Single Post - What should USMS do about the suits?


U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums - View Single Post - What should USMS do about the suits?


U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums - View Single Post - What should USMS do about the suits?

Midas
September 22nd, 2009, 01:31 PM
I just want this whole issue behind us. I'm proud that our House of Delegates came to such a reasonable compromise. I understand Jim's perspective to keep the tech suits legal through the SCY season (so that people can really get their money's worth from suits bought in the last year) but on the other hand people have known for a long time now that a suit ban was likely.

People are very passionate about this issue and I have personally engaged in meaningless debates with people who hold their views strongly and will not be convinced by my arguments any more than I will be convinced by theirs. I've decided I'm giving up tilting at that particular windmill.

Most of all, I look forward to discussions on this board and the broader swimming community returning primarily to swimming (technique, training, etc.) and getting away from the heavy focus on swim suits.

The Fortress
September 22nd, 2009, 01:36 PM
People are very passionate about this issue and I have personally engaged in meaningless debates with people who hold their views strongly and will not be convinced by my arguments any more than I will be convinced by theirs. I've decided I'm giving up tilting at that particular windmill.

Most of all, I look forward to discussions on this board and the broader swimming community returning primarily to swimming (technique, training, etc.) and getting away from the heavy focus on swim suits.

Yes, it's unlikely that purists and techies (or techy-purists, according to Geek) can agree, as their views have fundamentally different premises.

If you want more technique and training, you need only glance at the blogs where there are often avid discussions of such things and virtually nothing about suits.

I agree with Jim's point. It's not about knowing that there may be an upcoming ban. (And did we really know that to a certainty, as FINA said it wouldn't apply to masters?) Jim's suggested timing is more about fairness. Some have already swum SCM times and SCY times in their tech suits. If the suits are subsequently banned, the season end results would be somewhat skewed.

jim clemmons
September 22nd, 2009, 01:40 PM
I understand Jim's perspective to keep the tech suits legal through the SCY season (so that people can really get their money's worth from suits bought in the last year) but on the other hand people have known for a long time now that a suit ban was likely.



It has nothing to do with the upcoming ban or to get money's worth from the suit. It has everything to do with the timing of the ban, however.

Banning them, once the season has started (both SCM and SCY have commenced, btw), means some people get swims in with the suit that count and some won't. I don't see any fairness in that scenario.

TRYM_Swimmer
September 22nd, 2009, 01:43 PM
It has nothing to do with the upcoming ban or to get money's worth from the suit. It has everything to do with the timing of the ban, however.

Banning them, once the season has started (both SCM and SCY have commenced, btw), means some people get swims in with the suit that count and some won't. I don't see any fairness in that scenario.

Absolutely agree.

gull
September 22nd, 2009, 02:00 PM
People are very passionate about this issue and I have personally engaged in meaningless debates with people who hold their views strongly and will not be convinced by my arguments any more than I will be convinced by theirs. I've decided I'm giving up tilting at that particular windmill.

"Meaningless"? You have hurt my feelings. And I was ready to concede that the Blue Seventy Nero Comp bodyskin is really just an ultrathin wetsuit. But it sure is fast.

The Fortress
September 22nd, 2009, 02:15 PM
"Meaningless"? You have hurt my feelings. And I was ready to concede that the Blue Seventy Nero Comp bodyskin is really just an ultrathin wetsuit. But it sure is fast.

He's hurt my feelings too ...

If the current USMS proposal is for suits to be .8 mm in thickness and the B70 is less than .4, I guess we can look forward to fat textile suits instead of ultra thin tech suits? (Unlike you, having just swam in a squashy wetsuit, I just cannot classify a B70 as anything but a swim skin ... Sorry in advance for hurting your feelings.)

Chris Stevenson
September 22nd, 2009, 02:25 PM
Banning them, once the season has started (both SCM and SCY have commenced, btw), means some people get swims in with the suit that count and some won't. I don't see any fairness in that scenario.

IMO the only fair scenario is to have a concrete date that is known well in advance (though it doesn't necessarily have to coincide with the end of the season). That gives people who want rested swims in the suits a chance to get them, to match those who already have done so. This is the reason I voted for the third option presented at the USMS convention (with the June 1 date, though I personally would prefer an earlier date).

Midas
September 22nd, 2009, 02:31 PM
"Meaningless"? You have hurt my feelings. And I was ready to concede that the Blue Seventy Nero Comp bodyskin is really just an ultrathin wetsuit. But it sure is fast.

Alas... :doh:

ande
September 22nd, 2009, 02:34 PM
Makes more sense to impose bans at the end of seasons

ie:
SCM on 1/1/10 since swims have to be done on 12/31/09 or sooner
SCY on 6/1/10 since swims have to be done on 05/31/09 or sooner

seems reasonable




It has nothing to do with the upcoming ban or to get money's worth from the suit. It has everything to do with the timing of the ban, however.

Banning them, once the season has started (both SCM and SCY have commenced, btw), means some people get swims in with the suit that count and some won't. I don't see any fairness in that scenario.

Midas
September 22nd, 2009, 02:53 PM
It has nothing to do with the upcoming ban or to get money's worth from the suit. It has everything to do with the timing of the ban, however.

Banning them, once the season has started (both SCM and SCY have commenced, btw), means some people get swims in with the suit that count and some won't. I don't see any fairness in that scenario.

Got it. But to be clear, the slight majority voted against this. Looking at the USMS meet result database (and I understand that database doesn't always reflect EVERY meet) there have been a grand total of two SCY swim meets in the 2010 season. http://www.usms.org/comp/meets/index.php?CourseID=1

At one of those meets, there were 25 total swimmers and 69 total "splashes". At the other, there were only 18 total swimmers, but a whopping 102 splashes.

Who knows why those who voted for the immediate ban did so, but if I were voting my vote would have been based on the view that I can live with "inequity" of these 170 or so outlier swims rather than compound the tech suit "problem" for thousands more swims during our biggest and arguably most important season. (My view stands even if there were more meets that have occurred and are not yet in the database--the simple fact of the matter is that the vast majority of the meets are yet to come.)

I'm more sympathetic to your view on SCM but just want to rip the bandaid off here.

Sigh. I can't even believe I'm doing it again! Look, I'm not trying to argue and I understand your perspective. I have now tried to explain at least one reason for holding the opposite one (which is the one that appears to have won the day). I don't really want to argue. OK, I'm out of here.

psyncw
September 22nd, 2009, 03:06 PM
Another reason against prolonging the ban until the end of the scy season is suit availability. If at our championship meet in May, the lzrs and x-glides are still legal, but those companies are no longer making them/ran out of the common sizes, then only those swimmers that still have them can use them. That doesn't seem to make for a level competition.

It's one thing to compare times from october to may in the top ten, but you'd hope that at our championship meet everyone would have the same suit advantage whatever that turns out to be.

The Fortress
September 22nd, 2009, 03:10 PM
I'm more sympathetic to your view on SCM but just want to rip the bandaid off here.

opposite view ... (which is the one that appears to have won the day).

Yeah, the rest of the world has been swimming SCM and holding SCM championship meets, so it's no big deal to us US swimmers ... I'm not as worried about SCY (an admittedly long season) as SCM.

A tech suit is not a "bandaid." These are the types of words purists use that contribute to your, now admitted, moral self righteous image.

Well, you haven't "won" yet. To date, FINA doesn't care about masters. It is quite possible of course that FINA will change its mind. And, if it does, I think it will be for the reasons Jimby previously stated -- bureaucratic need to exert dominion and jurisdiction over every conceivable regulatee.

stillwater
September 22nd, 2009, 04:00 PM
That doesn't seem to make for a level competition.


I have been told many times that there is no level playing field in sports. One needs to stop whining work on technique, and train harder. Or so, I've been told.

jim clemmons
September 22nd, 2009, 04:01 PM
Another reason against prolonging the ban until the end of the scy season is suit availability. If at our championship meet in May, the lzrs and x-glides are still legal, but those companies are no longer making them/ran out of the common sizes, then only those swimmers that still have them can use them. That doesn't seem to make for a level competition.

It's one thing to compare times from october to may in the top ten, but you'd hope that at our championship meet everyone would have the same suit advantage whatever that turns out to be.

You could be proactive and buy one now. They're very inexpensive. If you buy the right one (I'd suggest B70 as you can get 50+ swims in it) it would be available for Spring Nat's (assuming it can be worn and isn't on the banned substance list :)) I have two, a short and a full length so between them and an FSII I last used in Texas, I should (might, who knows?) be covered.

Allen Stark
September 22nd, 2009, 06:53 PM
I'd prefer the ban start 1/1/10 for SCM and 6/1/10 for SCY,but I can see some wisdom in 1/1/10 for both.If the ban is before 1/1/10 I will be very irritated and think it just unfair as there have been several SCM meets already in USMS and mostly elsewhere.

hrietz
September 22nd, 2009, 11:14 PM
Another reason against prolonging the ban until the end of the scy season is suit availability. If at our championship meet in May, the lzrs and x-glides are still legal, but those companies are no longer making them/ran out of the common sizes, then only those swimmers that still have them can use them. That doesn't seem to make for a level competition.

AND what is the likelihood that companies will be making kneeskins for men or suits with zippers? Obviously the "do nothing" option and the so-called "compromise" are most advantageous to those currently owning suits!

Chris Stevenson
September 23rd, 2009, 12:40 AM
AND what is the likelihood that companies will be making kneeskins for men or suits with zippers? Obviously the "do nothing" option and the so-called "compromise" are most advantageous to those currently owning suits!

Well, I agree that complying with the "elite" rules would have been for the best...

If you don't own one, knock yourself out (http://www.swimoutlet.com/product_p/11282.htm), zipper and all. Took me all of 30 seconds to find. Buy it and be one of the happy few.

hrietz
September 23rd, 2009, 08:24 AM
Well, I agree that complying with the "elite" rules would have been for the best...

If you don't own one, knock yourself out (http://www.swimoutlet.com/product_p/11282.htm), zipper and all. Took me all of 30 seconds to find. Buy it and be one of the happy few.

I'd rather not since we still may end up following FINA "elite". I'll play it safe and stick with the recordbreaker!

ande
December 17th, 2009, 03:07 PM
who are the USMS reps that are going to the FINA meeting in Mid January?

Glenn
December 17th, 2009, 06:06 PM
I believe Nancy Ridout is the rep from USMS.

rdeclercq
December 18th, 2009, 10:33 AM
Okay, its now almost Christmas (and Hanukkah) and I'm still confused. What I need is clarification to my interpretation of the swimsuit rules:

1. For SC, through May, pretty much anything goes. But no zippers and for the men, nothing above the waist or below the knee.
2. For LC, which really doesn't start until later in 2010, mid-January meeting results will dictate.

Now, it sounds like USMS and/or FINA is challenging Webster on the definition of "textile." So, if it looks legal, it probably is, at least until further notice.

So, if I pick myself up a Nike Swift jammer (which has a silicon gasket but a poly/spandex body), as long as there's no zippers and its above the knee and below the waist, I should be okay for now at least.

Or am I on the wrong page?

Happy Holidays!
Rob

A Thompson
December 18th, 2009, 03:01 PM
The meeting in Jan 2010 is the FINA Bureau.

Nancy Rideout is on the FINA Masters Technical committee that already met in July 2009. They made recommendation to follow the "Swimming" swimwear guideline for Masters Swimming.

It is anticipate the Bureau will approve this recommendations, but often these "rule changes" have 60-day implementation period ( so it could be mid-March or later) or FINA could decide to implement as soom as practical or they could wait for the end of the FINA season (31-Dec-2010).

[FINA could surprise everyone and not apply these new swimwear rules to Masters, then the current swimwear would be allowed ].

Once FINA make a formal decision about Masters swimwear, then USMS will react. First, to comply with FINA rules for swimwear in meters (SCM and LCM) event. Second, they will decide when or if to apply these rules to SCY, as FINA does not recognize this format.

At convention, the house of delegate was split on what makes sense for USMS with SCY ( waiting for the end of a SCY season or implementing quickly).

Hope this does not add to your confusion. Basically, we don't know what will happen until mid-January 2010 nor when/if any swimwear restriction will be implemented.

Anthony Thompson, MOVY Masters

rdeclercq
December 18th, 2009, 03:37 PM
Thank you...though still a little confused, it sounds like its fair game until someone tells us otherwise. It also sounds like half a dozen decisions could reverse themselves over the next 12 months and that any meet should be approached with, "if it looks legal, it probably is...but bring an extra suit just in case."

Happy Holidays!
Rob

orca1946
December 18th, 2009, 06:16 PM
SOOOOO I can swim SCY this season in my 3 yr old FS 11 :confused::confused: