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qbrain
September 22nd, 2009, 02:54 PM
Anyone have any good suggestions for increasing turnover other than the obvious?

swimmieAvsFan
September 22nd, 2009, 03:07 PM
two words: tempo trainer

finis makes the one i have, and it's very easy to use. i used it this summer training for the 200 back, and i managed to go a masters best (previous masters PB was from 2005). the only thing i did differently this summer that i can figure was use the tempo trainer...

ande
September 22nd, 2009, 03:32 PM
The obvious: "move your arms faster, but maintain feel for the water"

somewhat obvious "don't pause out front"

somewhat obvious "get stronger"

somewhat obvious "improve your kick"

somewhat obvious "if you are slightly overweight, lug less lard"

subtle: "improve your head & body position"

How: Do bursts short very fast swimming


Anyone have any good suggestions for increasing turnover other than the obvious?

Couroboros
September 22nd, 2009, 04:15 PM
I see I need to update my swimming vocab.... what's turnover?

pwolf66
September 22nd, 2009, 04:23 PM
Otherwise known as stroke rate.

Q,

Why do you feel you need to increase your turn over/stroke rate? What is your stroke rate now? Do you even know?

I'm on the opposite side. I'm trying to reduce from 68 SPM (strokes per minute) to around 58 without losing overall speed.

SwimmieAvs is dead on the money. Get a tempo trainer. And use it.

Speedo
September 22nd, 2009, 04:28 PM
Try this: Next time you are swimming freestyle at a fast pace, kick shallower and faster 6 beat kicks- the arms will speed up as well. Then you have to decide is a stronger kick or a faster turnover more valuable to you until you add strength to the loser in that decision.

SolarEnergy
September 22nd, 2009, 04:47 PM
Anyone have any good suggestions for increasing turnover other than the obvious?
well that kind of depends where the bottleneck is at the moment.

- What leads you to think that increasing the turnover would be desirable?
- What happens when you try to do so?

james lucas
September 22nd, 2009, 05:06 PM
Take a look at the last 15 meters of this summer's 100 fly race in Rome:

YouTube - Michael Phelps New World Record and Wins 100m Butterfly Final Rome 09 08 01

Phelps and Cavic are swimming stroke for stoke as they approach the wall. The difference is that Phelps, turning over his strokes at essentially the same rate at Cavic, is going faster.

Am I wrong in concluding that today's coaches seem to emphasize distance per stroke over turnover?

quicksilver
September 22nd, 2009, 06:13 PM
"Too many swimmers focus on pushing their hand back at the end of the stroke, which just delays getting it back to the power position.

For freestyle, one of the best drills I know to get the arms recovering quickly is the freestyle pull with dolphin kick. One arm stroke for each dolphin kick will force your tempo and stroke rate up higher than you are used to. It forces you to swim on the freeway. Try it, but don't slow your kick down. Speed up your recovery to keep up with your legs, but use one stroke per one kick. Once you have the tempo right, switch back to flutter kick with the same tempo."

http://www.theraceclub.net/columns/2008/04/swimming-on-freeway.html

ehoch
September 22nd, 2009, 07:26 PM
I also like this drill
For freestyle, one of the best drills I know to get the arms recovering quickly is the freestyle pull with dolphin kick.

I am not even sure why it works so well, but I can maintain a high turnover much easier doing this than regular Free.

I second the tempo trainer recommendation - it is a very good tool.

You have to actually measure your turnover / stroke rate and go from there. It's an individual thing - but from observing our team:

- the slow group has poor distance per stroke and a low turnover
- the middle of the pack lanes usually don't have good distance per stroke, but can maintain a pretty high turnover
- the fast lane is faster, because they get better DPS or distance per stroke.

qbrain
September 22nd, 2009, 08:31 PM
I will try to respond to everything brought up.

Tempo trainer: Thank you, I need to finally press the buy now button. I think this is one sure way to know I am picking up my turn over and maintaining it without having someone stand on the side of the pool timing and counting strokes.

Short bursts of fast swimming: I added this as a serious part of my training last month.

Why do I need to increase turnover: I have always been made fun of for my slow turn over. After a 50 free last November, my wife told me I needed to stop swimming the event, I looked too slow. She has been swimming competitively since she was a little kid and she wasn't joking. I got second in my heat.

What is my current stroke rate: I will let you know after I get my tempo trainer.

Kick shallower to kick faster: That is a good idea, I will have to see if I can pull it off. Right now when I start kicking faster, I start kicking harder, but developing more fine control of my kick should be beneficial.

Freestyle pull with dolphin kick: Quick, I think you are trying to drown me. I will give it a shot, but freeway speed is not how I would describe anything I pair with dolphin kick. Oh no, ehoch is trying to drown me too...

Several people seem concerned that I am working on my turnover. It is something I need to work on. It is a weak part of my swimming, but I promise not to forget about DPS and kick.

funkyfish
September 22nd, 2009, 09:43 PM
I'm in a similar if not same boat. I can achieve a decent spl, but it's at the expense of some speed (maybe it's not that decent after all). I've been told by folks here and those watching me at meets that I need to have a faster turnover. This is a critical issue for me as I like to think of myself as a sprinter (mainly because I die off on the second 50 of a 100). I too shall stimulate the economy and purchase a tempo trainer, but probably after I try the dolphin-kicking drill.
:banana:

geminidragonizer
September 22nd, 2009, 09:44 PM
Amen, Ande. My first post asked basically the same question. After applying your prior suggestions and reading your tips, I'm achieving great results.


The obvious: "move your arms faster, but maintain feel for the water"

Instead of focusing on minimizing the number of strokes/lap, I've found a balance between increased stroke rate and power, which has had a profound effect on my overall times and general feeling in the water. Still a work in progress.


somewhat obvious "don't pause out front"

Getting better by the day.


somewhat obvious "get stronger"

After going heavier with the weights, my power per stroke has greatly improved.


somewhat obvious "improve your kick"

I always hated kick sets but getting much faster with greater endurance. My leg muscles are looking ripped, which is probably a good thing.


subtle: "improve your head & body position"

Still working on better head and body position, but so far has made a big difference. Accordingly, I discovered that I my breathing was terrible. When I focused on fully expelling air underwater and taking deep fresh breaths, my muscles felt terrific.


How: Do bursts short very fast swimming

Will do.


Thanks!

__steve__
September 23rd, 2009, 12:57 AM
"Too many swimmers focus on pushing their hand back at the end of the stroke, which just delays getting it back to the power position.
First practice I attended (last Saturday) the coach took time watching my me. He said my hands crossover (bad), and that may hand's aren't pushing back far enough (O K). I paid attention to the first correction (crossover) but kinda dismissed the "hand's aren't pushing back far enough" knowing it was obsolete - good thing.

I look at turnover as if it was a gear, and the gear your in is effective leverage. You can decrease your leaverage to increase spm and not go faster. Or you can increase the horsepower (stated above) while keeping the leverage and then go faster. But for me, I'm still learning the basics so I can't put any power to use yet - lol.

I saw a video of Klim and Popov. By the 25M mark on the rope klim had almost one stroke on Popov but Klim was slowly fading.

SolarEnergy
September 23rd, 2009, 03:47 AM
Why do I need to increase turnover: I have always been made fun of for my slow turn over. After a 50 free last November, my wife told me I needed to stop swimming the event, I looked too slow. She has been swimming competitively since she was a little kid and she wasn't joking. I got second in my heat. All right, now I see.

Do you think your kick/stroke pattern is a true 6Beat kick or is there a possibility that you actually end up over kicking? During the full stroke execution I mean?

Because if you are indeed using a 6Beat kick pattern, then it is either of the following two things: Your kicking rate is too slow, or it is being slowed down by your pulling action. If you are indeed overkicking then you probably found your problem. In this case I'd add the 6beatkick to 1 arm progression to the list of drill, putting emphasis on the respect of the 6beat clock. YouTube - Freestyle 6beat kicking to 1arm progression

Note how the kid on the clip is catching very early, almost immediately after the arm entry? This is because not having the other arm to help, this drill forces him to do so in order to lessen the dead spot in propulsion. This is where this drill comes in handy, that combined with the opportunity to properly time the stroke kick relative to pull (6beat).

Note also that the first part is just like one arm but without any arm. Body roll kick breathing, all the same. Say you manage to master it (it's not easy I'm telling you) then if you can 6Beat/Body roll fast enough this becomes your new turnover given that your pulling action doesn't slow down this 6tick clock.

The worst cases on earth in term of turnover rate can sometimes add the fist pulling as a drill. Full stroke 6beat while pulling with fists instead of open hands. It's like a kick in the butt, a wakeup call with a full bucket of icy water.

__steve__
September 23rd, 2009, 08:29 AM
I'll have to try those one arm and fist drill's.


When I watch videos from 10 years ago it looks to me sprinting has changed considerably, namely turnover. Like in the Popov days. When they sprinted back then, it looks like the style doesn't change much from longer races. But when I watch the resent sprinting it looks like it's a totally different style than longer races altogether. Is this true?

qbrain
September 23rd, 2009, 09:24 AM
Do you think your kick/stroke pattern is a true 6Beat kick or is there a possibility that you actually end up over kicking? During the full stroke execution I mean?


By over kicking you mean that my amplitude is larger than optimal right? I am sure my frequency is correct, but I could be kicking outside the bucket.



Because if you are indeed using a 6Beat kick pattern, then it is either of the following two things: Your kicking rate is too slow, or it is being slowed down by your pulling action. If you are indeed overkicking then you probably found your problem. In this case I'd add the 6beatkick to 1 arm progression to the list of drill, putting emphasis on the respect of the 6beat clock. YouTube - Freestyle 6beat kicking to 1arm progression (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GoXAD8s_Pk)

Note how the kid on the clip is catching very early, almost immediately after the arm entry? This is because not having the other arm to help, this drill forces him to do so in order to lessen the dead spot in propulsion. This is where this drill comes in handy, that combined with the opportunity to properly time the stroke kick relative to pull (6beat).

Note also that the first part is just like one arm but without any arm. Body roll kick breathing, all the same. Say you manage to master it (it's not easy I'm telling you) then if you can 6Beat/Body roll fast enough this becomes your new turnover given that your pulling action doesn't slow down this 6tick clock.

The worst cases on earth in term of turnover rate can sometimes add the fist pulling as a drill. Full stroke 6beat while pulling with fists instead of open hands. It's like a kick in the butt, a wakeup call with a full bucket of icy water.

The drill from the video is the kind of stuff I am looking for. Thanks.

Fist drill certainly gets my arms around faster. I feel like I am just slinging my arms around totally out of control. Maybe if I slinged in a more controlled fashion it would be more beneficial?

qbrain
September 23rd, 2009, 09:25 AM
When I watch videos from 10 years ago it looks to me sprinting has changed considerably, namely turnover. Like in the Popov days. When they sprinted back then, it looks like the style doesn't change much from longer races. But when I watch the resent sprinting it looks like it's a totally different style than longer races altogether. Is this true?

It is worth remembering that Popov is still the fastest swimmer recorded without a tech suit. I would be happy to have Popov's turn over or SPL.

aquaFeisty
September 23rd, 2009, 09:48 AM
Wow, that kid makes the one-arm freestyle drill look easy. I feel like I am about to drown when I do it.

Thanks for explaining the turnover aspect of the drill, SolarEnergy. I never knew that... thought it was merely a body rotation type drill. Sigh, guess I will have to give it another try.

bkbain
September 23rd, 2009, 11:13 AM
We did a couple drills in college for turnover. One was called spin drill. Which was a fist drill but try to spin arms as fast as possible with no technique. We did it like 6 x 25 (12.5 spin/12.5 ez)
The other thing we used alot for turnover was the long belt stretch cord. We swim to the other side of the pool. Rest. Push off and its all out sprint and the cord is pulling you so fast that you have to learn to speed up the turnover or the cord will start to pull you under. Other swimmers can be up by the block pulling the cord back faster if you do not have a high tension cord.

ande
September 23rd, 2009, 11:57 AM
video yourself swimming freestyle at different stroke rates
it helps to actually see yourself swim

Seems many people recommend using a Tempo Trainer (http://tinyurl.com/tempotrainer)

SolarEnergy
September 23rd, 2009, 11:59 AM
By over kicking you mean that my amplitude is larger than optimal right? I am sure my frequency is correct, but I could be kicking outside the bucket. Good good. We're getting down to serious business here. By overkicking, I actually meant giving more than 6 beat per full cycle, or more than 3 beat per arm stroke.

The thing with stroke rate, especially in the context of FreeStyle sprinting (hence the fact that I asked you for clarifications prior issuing any recommendations) is that it is part of a Clock. The smallest component of this clock is a foot kick. You have 6 of them per cycle. So we can not really discuss on how to increase turn over without this consideration.

Slow turnover in sprint situation is likely due to more than 6 kicks being done per cycle (which of course slows down the turnover) or the kick (the clock) to be slowed down by the pulling action.

To be honest with you I see the later being a common cause more often than the former. Now, you mentioned about amplitude of the kick. An amplitude that is too wide could expect why the kick slows down the whole rate of execution. This is a possibility.

One thing is sure though, the drill showed earlier in the clip can be included in a very fun technical progression which always pay off.

You go 25m kick only (focus on kick), 25m one arm (focus on kick), 25m the other arm (focus on kick), 25m sprint focusing on kick (making sure that its rate doesn't slow down).

The bit with the kick only, like I previously said, is hard to get to grip. But I am telling you, it is very rewarding when you finally get it.

Although the kid on the clip is extraordinary talented (1:53 over 200m age 15), when I first approached him to do the clip, he had never performed this drill before (matter of fact, I invented this drill for myself. Other coaches have probably invented this before but it is not well documented). His execution isn't perfect.

I will post a clip soon that clearly shows how it should be done. Your ability to execute it fast should immediately translate into higher turnover given that the pulling doesn't slow down this vital 6 beat clock.

orca1946
September 23rd, 2009, 12:44 PM
Do not too concerned without putting the whole stroke in context.

ehoch
September 23rd, 2009, 01:09 PM
Although the kid on the clip is extraordinary talented (1:53 over 200m age 15), when I first approached him to do the clip, he had never performed this drill before (matter of fact, I invented this drill for myself. Other coaches have probably invented this before but it is not well documented).

I am sorry - I must be missing something. You "invented" the one arm free drill with the resting arm staying at the side ???

SolarEnergy
September 23rd, 2009, 01:34 PM
I am sorry - I must be missing something. You "invented" the one arm free drill with the resting arm staying at the side ???
Nop, I invented the 0arm drill though (Full Stroke without any arm).

I heard that there was another coach somewhere in the US who is also using this drill, but I failed to find any documentation (written or video) on it.

And again, I am sure that several other coaches have invented it. We all face the same challenges, it is only logical to end up finding the same solutions.

YouTube - Free Style 0 arm drill

That drill can solve a whole bunch of issues, covers most level of swimmers. Newbies learn how to breathe correctly, sprinters learn to properly time their 6beat clock, flat swimmers learn to better rotate etc......... And, like I said, it can easily be implemented in a bunch of sets since it doesn't involve using a kick board. My favorite progression is 25m of this drill, 25m 1 arm, 25m the other and 25m sprint.

Myself, I remember having done 1kilo/1kilo/1kilo/1kilo. After this, rotation was sorted out.

Here's the progression itself
YouTube - Free Style 0 arm to 1 arm to Full Stroke progression

Again, the execution isn't perfect but it gives you an idea. One thing I found interesting with this kid, is that he naturally added a little scull twist with the resting arm, that can be used to improve the timing between push of one arm relative to catch of the other arm.

Herb
December 31st, 2009, 08:52 AM
somewhat obvious "don't pause out front"



I'm pretty sure this is where my problem is. Is this pause even supposed to be a fundamental part of the stroke? because it is for mine.

Is this a fundamental technical flaw or partly just being out of shape or not trying hard enough? I fool around with increasing stroke rate in the middle of a set and I initially feel lighter in the water and my times improve slightly, but then it makes me tired and I revert back to my slower stroke.

Georgio
December 31st, 2009, 10:08 AM
"Too many swimmers focus on pushing their hand back at the end of the stroke, which just delays getting it back to the power position".

""hand's aren't pushing back far enough" knowing it was obsolete "

One of my favorite freestyle instructional videos of Lindsay Benco stresses "completing the stroke all the way past your hip".

Has emphasis on this phase of the stroke become obsolete, and a quicker recovery considered more efficient?

Also the coach yells, "Thumbs down your sides!" Does this still apply?

Thanks,

Georgio :drown:

__steve__
December 31st, 2009, 11:39 AM
In sprinting 50M I think there's less time to fully complete the push back of the stroke.

For me I can only maintain a good sprint for about 11 seconds, after that my body just runs out of steam and moves slow. I wish there were 25 Meter events

SolarEnergy
December 31st, 2009, 12:04 PM
Anyone have any good suggestions for increasing turnover other than the obvious? Just a different voice here. I like your turn over, have seen several good swimmers adopting your style and having massive success with it. The best of all (unfortunately no footage available, it dates back to early '90s) is called Stephan Hebert. 49 something over 100m free, 1:47 over 200. Missed the Olympic qualifiers not because of his potential to perform, but due to an inherent lack of potential to perform under extremely high pressure.

It needs to be improved since speed is function of DPS * Turnover but it doesn't have to be drastically improved in order to allow you to meet your goals.

One other way to simply put it. Preserve your stroke count. Period. Then any improvement made on speed will be the result of progressively improving turnover as a result of pure fitness improvement (as opposed to resulting from a full revolution in your technique). If you preserve your stroke count though, increasing turn over dramatically would translate into increasing your speed dramatically. And that would only come as a result of drastic improvements in your fitness.

(just my two cents).

orca1946
January 1st, 2010, 12:28 PM
As a mostly distance swimmer in all stroke, I can't seem to increase turnover without getting way tired !

SolarEnergy
January 1st, 2010, 04:58 PM
As a mostly distance swimmer in all stroke, I can't seem to increase turnover without getting way tired ! That's probably because you're good enough technically to do so without loosing water (DPS).

Given a glide time of 5sec followed by 18 strokes per 25m (scm), a 1500 is done in 24min flat at 60spm, and almost 23min flat at 63.

So if one's pb over 1500 is close to 24, just increasing the rate by 1 or 2 stroke without scarifying any DPS should feel much harder.

Increasing turn over isn't like I don't know, recovering the arm with finger close to the surface or kicking from the hips. For someone that already swims relatively well, increasing turnover is more affected by fitness than by technique per se. It's not something you'd go like hey! Today I will increase my rate turnover by 5-10strokes per minute and my performances should improve.

I think that when one gets close to the ideal balance between rate and length, the improvement in turn over can be better done with a pacing tool such as SwimSmooth's wetronome (or any other device that allows you to precisely set the desired rate at which key sets should be swam).

It's also possible to modify the balance between rate and lengths though. Based on how I feel, I sometimes begin sets adding one stroke per 25 (deliberately that is) in order to make room for an increased rate. I'd do this to make the set little more cardio, little less muscle intensive. Overall performances may benefit from this "reconfiguration". However, well, you do it with a stroke or 2 per 25, that doesn't leave that much room for more turn over.


"Too many swimmers focus on pushing their hand back at the end of the stroke, which just delays getting it back to the power position". I'd tend to agree here, especially if the goal is to increase turnover.


One of my favorite freestyle instructional videos of Lindsay Benco stresses "completing the stroke all the way past your hip". Too bad this video has been removed from Youtube due to copyrights violation. It was indeed one of the best freestyle clip available there.


Has emphasis on this phase of the stroke become obsolete, and a quicker recovery considered more efficient? To a certain extent yes. It's very easy though to aim for a balance here. If you loose DPS as a result of this (cutting on final pulling push), then you may have cut too much. Therefore the idea here is to constantly asses both DPS and time (as well as rate if possible but this is more complicated especially without a pacing device)


Also the coach yells, "Thumbs down your sides!" Does this still apply? If this is to favor recovering the arm whilst keeping the shoulder "unlocked" yes. It still applies. I like to evaluate this on a case per case basis though.