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Georgio
September 27th, 2009, 08:03 PM
How many use the early vertical forearm method?

How many believe it is less prone to shoulder injuries?

I tried it for the first time today and it wore my butt out! I did feel like I had more surface area to pull with and the force felt more horizontally directed toward my feet. I have a lot of work to do if I continue to adopt this stroke method.:bolt:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Eftbn3gwv8&feature=related"][FONT=Times New Roman]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Eftbn3gwv8&feature=related[/FON

qbrain
September 27th, 2009, 08:33 PM
I use it, but I don't think it affects shoulder problems one way or another.

tomtopo
September 27th, 2009, 08:58 PM
I just copied this from a previous post. Hope this helps.

Every swimmer who moves with a hint of decent propulsion is using a vertical forearm position. EVF runs on a continuum from late vertical (a dropped elbow) to the earliest vertical (a high angle rotation like world record distance swimmer Rebecca Adlington). Every swimmer wants to avoid using a late vertical forearm or dropped elbow.

This next statement is for everyone; a cookie-cutter definition of an EVF is simply not possible. Every swimmer wants to improve the early vertical position of their hand / forearm. How early and to what degree your shoulder muscles can achieve that critical propulsive position is dependent upon the swimmers physical limits.

So the continuum of a vertical forearm will vary from swimmer to swimmer. On one end of the continuum is an Alain Bernard stroke and on the other Rebecca Adlington. The key point to improving swimming speed is to find the position that allows you to maintain peak drag force (leveraging or pressing water) for the longest time. The "S" shaped pattern is an iatrical part of maintaining peak drag force but cannot and should not be the focus for coaches of beginning swimmers.

When you time yourself for 25 yards and find that a certain stroke pattern gives you the most bang for the buck (energy expenditure efficiency), youíre on the right track. Less strokes and faster times is the way you'll find your best pulling pattern. Once you've found the best pattern, duplicate the pattern very slowly in drills so muscle memory can be developed (usually 6 to 8 weeks).

You're using a vertical forearm position right now (every swimmer is), how early you can put that forearm vertically is something you'll want to improve without compromising shoulder health. Thereís an EVF position out there for everyone and youíll never have to compromise your body even a little. Good luck and I hope that answers your question.

tomtopo
September 27th, 2009, 09:17 PM
Georgio,
Remember that EVF isn't about pulling, it's about setting up the hand and forearm vertically. If you watch my youtube (type in EVF + Swimming) you'll see some great exercises designed to accelerate an earlier vertical position of the bent or straight arm. Remember, you and every swimmer on the planet that moves forward, uses a vertical forearm/hand to propel themselves. Just how early you set your forearm/hand vertically is the thing you should be trying to improve.

Georgio
September 27th, 2009, 10:17 PM
Yes, I can see that now.....I was dropping my elbow, creating lift, and have been searching for this more efficient :bolt:method. I think it will transform my swimming.

tomtopo
September 28th, 2009, 08:44 AM
Even a small change in your stroke pattern will take time. Try to do isometrics that mimic the change you want and do them for 20 seconds at 80 percent of maximum effort and you'll accelerate your improvement. Good luck.

Georgio
September 29th, 2009, 10:49 PM
OK I have done about 4.5 hours working almost exclusively on using a early vertical forearm technique over the last 3 days. It does feel like I'm learning freestyle swimming over again. I am using different muscles and it takes full concentration just to stroke and keep my elbows up. I already know this is the right thing and makes so much sense. I can't believe I haven't encountered it before now. I believe basic laws of physics apply here and this technique is far superior to the "dropped elbow" and straight arms most, formerly including myself, swim with.

My right arm seems to be learning faster than my left. I use a pull bouy alot, concentrating only on my strokes and only taking a breath when necessary. My motions feel very "robotic" at this stage which I know will smooth out with a rhythm soon. The best way I can describe the freestyle stroke motion I'm making, is my arms feel like a robot spider's legs walking on an imaginary surface, a forearm and hand's depth below the water surface!

Think of yourself standing with one arm fully extended in front of you and how little force it would take for someone to push up on your hand. Now bend your elbow at a 90 deg. angle and imagine how much more force your hand would resist. By measuring my arm motions, the cantilever distance of the hand position alone is cut in half, making application of force much less effort!

I will be in the water at 5:30 am tomorrow and again at 4:30pm to work on it for about 3 more hours. It's supposed to be in the mid 50s tomorrow morning, considered quite brisk here, so it should be a great swim!

Georgio

(Incidentally "spellcheck" doesn't seem to work so I hope there are not too many errors!) :bitching:

Georgio
September 30th, 2009, 07:13 AM
It was about 60 deg. and eerie arriving at the pool this morning with Black Sabbath playing. Got in a good 60 min. more work on new stroke. Right shoulder is complaining a little from the new range of motion. I couldn't imagine trying to gradually work on getting the elbows higher....so I just hiked them all the way up...it's feels a little like paddling a canoe on both sides. Enjoyed swimming with the high school team, although I didn't follow their workout. Coach treated us to some delicious home made cinnamon buns! Hope to go again at 4:30.

I get this message when I try spell check:
vB Spell installation problem, please notify the webmaster.

tomtopo
September 30th, 2009, 07:38 AM
The range of motion from swimmer to swimmer is different and that means you need to use a swimming pattern that fits you. All I'm saying is that you may have to compromise and find a pattern that's suits you. A pulling pattern should never hurt and when you hear sounds, clicking and such, that isn't a good sign. Working on improving your pulling pattern is a never ending story. Good luck!

Georgio
October 1st, 2009, 09:28 AM
My right shoulder shortened my second workout yesterday to 30 minutes. There is no clicking or popping, just a painfull resistance in the joint. I had the same thing earlier this year when I began daily swims/workouts. I only did what didn't hurt and it went away. I'll have to resort to that again, which may mean a lot of kick sets and dry land work for a few days...hopefully no longer. It looks like an overnight transition to the new stroke technique is more than my 58 yr. old shoulder joint will allow me...duh. It looks like I will need to briefly rehab my shoulder, work back slowly to where I was, then gradually introduce a higher elbow stroke in smaller increments. To recover I plan to limit my swimming and weight training to what isin't painfull, ice and advil.

Your comments and suggestions are appreciated. :bow:

__steve__
October 1st, 2009, 10:57 AM
To recover I plan to limit my swimming and weight training to what isin't painfull, ice and advil.

Your comments and suggestions are appreciated. :bow:I'm not an expert by any means on this topic but I do have some personal experience to share in case it may be helpful.

My left shoulder has fully dislocated about a dozen times. First time was in 1993, the last time was in 2002. At one point it was so bad it actually fully dislocated in my sleep. After two emergency room visits, I eventully learned to reset it myself. Never had surgery, but in my experience weight training has helped my left shoulder termendously. "Knocking on wood" no major problems for over 5 years and I started swimming 1.5 years ago. Before, I would never be able to such an activity. I am very cautious with the stroke and movements and probably will never be able to backstroke, but what allowed me to try swimming out were several years of resistance conditioning. Without it I would have never attempted a freestyle stroke.

First, even though weight training is nessesary for my shoulder health, there are several movements I avoid totally - dumbell/barbell military press, and bench press. If I did a set of these, I am certain the next swim would result in shoulder inflammation. For me, shrugs have seemed to keep the shoulder supported, and lateral raises with very light weights are good too as well as other dumbell/cable exercises. I also watch footage of Popov until movements are memorized to the point I recognize them when I get close. I do this in the mirror -shoulder position, rotation, everything but the kick. I think I found an EVF position for me that doesn't hurt or makes noise, but most importantly, as my form developed more (EVF), there was less shoulder irritation. Like it was more natural.

Now this is working for me, my shoulder problem could be very different than yours - needing something else. But you may find it helpful to step back and evaluate what specific movement is aggrivating, lift weights cautiously avoiding bench and upright presses, and get some feedback on your stroke. I also avoid pain medication while working out to keep me from injury, unless something does go wrong and I need to decrease inflammation.

pendaluft
October 1st, 2009, 02:55 PM
I had some shoulder pain last spring, 6 months into my swimming comeback after a 25 year hiatus.

I found the exercises for shoulder injury prevention on the USA Swimming website very helpful:

http://www.usaswimming.org/USASWeb/ViewMiscArticle.aspx?TabId=445&Alias=Rainbow&Lang=en&mid=702&ItemId=700


I still do them -- Take a look and see what you think.

Flounder
October 1st, 2009, 05:35 PM
So here is a little light on the anatomical make up of the EVF stroke. By popping up your elbow before you take your pull, you engage your lats and then use them along with your pecs for your power. This is a great relief for the shoulder since you are using bigger muscle groups in addition to just your deltoids. :applaud:
Continue to practice this technique and you'll find yourself getting stronger and pulling more water.

tomtopo
October 1st, 2009, 10:03 PM
I've been coaching for over 30 years and have inherited swimmers with shoulder problems. One of my distance swimmers had "swimmer's shoulder" so bad that he couldn't swim without pain. Anyway, George Block, the past president of the American Swimming Coaches Association put on a clinic and helped the swimmer alleviate his pain. George told him to exit his hand from the water so he could see his palm. It looked awkward (he could enter it normally) but the pain disappeared. The impingement or pain was created when his hand exited the water and by changing the exit strategy, the pain disappeared. My swimmer had to practice the new exiting strategy and he often lapsed into the old style of recovery that caused the pain but I knew that my swimmer could swim pain free if he desired (sometimes he did, sometimes he didn't???). Think about how your hand exits the water and see if some changes might alleviate the pain totally. No one should swim with joint pain. Good luck!!

Georgio
October 1st, 2009, 11:17 PM
I wasn't sure I would be able to swim today, but after applying hot and cold, 8 advil and this rotator cuff exercise: YouTube - Rotator Cuff Exercises for Pain Relief / Shoulder Pain Relief

I was able to swim very ez without discomfort with a stroke more like I'm accustomed to. I will continue the same routine and gradually over a period of weeks engage an earlier forearm. My theory is the extra load I was applying (added efficiency) with the new forearm position (extreme) was loading up my shoulder more than it was accustomed to. I expect a speedy recovery and don't think I will miss a workout! :bliss:
I will try the palm exit technique and will post later progress. Thank you all for your valuable advice!

tomtopo
October 2nd, 2009, 08:49 AM
Awesome video! I've never seen it done quite like that. I'd like to use this video. Do you think you could get me in touch with the author. Thanks Tom

Georgio
October 2nd, 2009, 09:11 AM
Here you go:

7 Minutes to a Healthy Shoulder and Rotator Cuff by David Wicker at Ko Olina Hawaii.

Owner: whitetigerhawaii (http://www.youtube.com/user/whitetigerhawaii)

I am continuing to do these exercises and combined with alternate heat and cold, and 4 advil 2X 4 hours apart before swim, shoulder is much better. :banana:

Thanks again.

spell_me
October 2nd, 2009, 10:14 AM
I started having shoulder and arm pain last May and had to take some time off. Since returning, I've been making a big effort to avoid the overuse problems. A big part of my strategy is adjusting my stroke. I've been working on my EVF. I believe that one of the main causes of my pain has been related to my position at entry, so EVF goes right along with that. It has taken me a while, but I'm starting to "get" it. For me the key word in EVF is EARLY. I have to focus on the word early, on getting that vertical forearm sooner!

Anyway, it has been helping me a lot as far as avoiding pain as I work to get back into shape!!!!

geochuck
October 2nd, 2009, 10:45 AM
For Tomtopo can - we do EVF if the arm is entered when completely extended. My experiment in the 60's after injuring both shoulders. When the arms were extended I would let the hands go to the catch position with out applying force. I called it dropping in to position. When at the catch I would then apply force with the hand and forearm making sure the elbow did not drop during the catch phase.

orca1946
October 2nd, 2009, 11:09 AM
I tried this at practice wed night, it takes somr thinking as to when to start the pull.

tomtopo
October 2nd, 2009, 11:19 AM
George,
I hope you don't mind me using the phrase "dropping it into position"; itís another way of saying "setting-up" your stroke. I was watching our high school girl's swim team and found that every single swimmer moved either their elbow first or moved their hand toward the midline before dropping their hand into position. The common misconception is that there is an alternate method of dropping your hand into position in the freestyle or any other stroke for that matter. Some swimmers contend that swimming with a straight arm precludes an EVF and nothing could be more false. Alain Bernard has an EVF with a straighter arm but as long as the hand isn't late he obtains the leverage to sprint (and very well).
If swimmers can improve how they drop their hand into position (under the elbow) their times will drop. Thanks George.

geochuck
October 2nd, 2009, 12:02 PM
No problem

Here is how I explain this action in my web site

How the hand enters the water.

It really doesn't matter.

I found it easier to place my hand in the water with the thumb and all of the fingers entering the water at the same time. The elbow is at 90 degrees away from your little finger with a slight bend in your arm. As your hand enters the water and drops down we press the hand and forearm (down about 3 to 5 lbs pressure per sq inch) very gently. Then gradually increase (to 9 to 12 lbs pressure per sq inch) not applying full pressure and take it to the catch point of your stroke.

When you get to the catch point max it (about 25 lbs per sq inch) keep the hand as close to the body as practical and press down to your thigh.

pwolf66
October 2nd, 2009, 12:25 PM
George told him to exit his hand from the water so he could see his palm. It looked awkward (he could enter it normally) but the pain disappeared.

When you say 'he could see his palm' is that so the swimmer could see his palm or the coach could see his palm? If it's the swimmer, I have no idea how that is possible for the swimmer to see his palm on exit if the hand is exiting at or near the hip. I'm very confused by this statement.

Georgio
October 2nd, 2009, 12:28 PM
I guessed it means the palm is facing your head?:argue:

__steve__
October 2nd, 2009, 03:20 PM
I interpreted it as palm facing inboard.

geochuck
October 3rd, 2009, 09:25 AM
If your palm faces the ceiling at the finish you will be able to exit the water easily and cleanly. Too many statements made and not explained properly can compllicate the easy extraction.

marksman
October 3rd, 2009, 04:30 PM
I thought the benko video was great. She has a reasonable EVF but it isn't extreme like Thorpe. Ahd she describes how to start it, namely by getting those fingers pointing to the bottom early and let the rest follow.

After working on my catch a bit, it became clear that it is not something designed to make swimming freestyle *easier* but rather to make you *faster*. I know some of us like to glide rather than start the pull early which is probably a bad habit if we're interested in speed.

tomtopo
October 4th, 2009, 04:34 PM
By rolling on your side more, instead of the swimmer in a position to see their thumb as their hand exits the water, the swimmer turns their hand so they can see their palm. This position allows the larger muscles in the shoulder to become engaged and reduces the chance of impingement to occur. The entry of the hand is no different, just the exiting of the hand. It seems a little awkward at first but it not that difficult to master.

orca1946
October 5th, 2009, 12:15 AM
Tried again today with some better feel. It also seems to put more pressure on my elbow?

Georgio
October 5th, 2009, 11:47 AM
Was able to get in another hour in the pool on Friday swimming ez. (Except kick sets which I'm emphasizing.) Continuing advil, tiger balm, hot & cold and very light weight training exercises. My shoulders are requiring some rehab after attempting to adopt what I would describe as an exaggerated EVF overnight. I equate it to suddenly rotatating a well worn in ball bearing at 90 deg. Based on my experience, most would benefit from gradual introduction of EarlierVF from LVF(?).
It's great, but be carefull.:bump:

tomtopo
October 5th, 2009, 11:57 AM
Please consider a slightly different position that doesn't hurt. Pain in a joint or when there's point tenderness (a specific spot) not related to stress adaptation (increased intensity and/or workload), must be avoided. You could be hurting yourself unnecessarily. If I was your coach we'd be sitting down for a heart-to-heart. Good luck.

Georgio
October 5th, 2009, 12:13 PM
"You could be hurting yourself unnecessarily", I probably did TomT and thanks for your offer. I went too extreme too fast because I was too impatient when I did 6 sessions in 4 days changing my stroke so radically, I could hardly make a length at a time. My stroke looks more like this now:
YouTube - Swim Fast - Freestyle with Lindsay Benko [ 6/2 Beat Kick ]

Georgio
October 6th, 2009, 01:17 AM
Arms worked fine today and was able push again without discomfort for 70 minutes. Got some sprint 50s in. Will continue my exercises, but think I'm out of the woods and will be pushing my EVF harder later in the week. Need to be ready to race my grandson next week!:cane:

tomtopo
October 6th, 2009, 11:27 AM
Good luck, please keep us posted!~

E=H2O
October 6th, 2009, 11:42 AM
"You could be hurting yourself unnecessarily", I probably did TomT and thanks for your offer. I went too extreme too fast because I was too impatient when I did 6 sessions in 4 days changing my stroke so radically, I could hardly make a length at a time. My stroke looks more like this now:
YouTube - Swim Fast - Freestyle with Lindsay Benko [ 6/2 Beat Kick ] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbMIId4imh4)

Great Video

Midas
October 6th, 2009, 03:15 PM
The Benko video made things a lot clearer for me. Today in practice I really felt like I was "grabbing" more water but I knew my hands were not perfectly "vertical". Rather they were slightly angled under my body. Benko does the same thing, despite what she says on the video (check out around 1:30 in the video posted above, and again around 5:15). Maybe this is what everybody meant all along, but for some reason I thought I was trying to keep my full forearm pointing towards the bottom of the pool. Is the key to EVF to get that forearm "paddle" as fully engaged as quickly as possible? That's more a function of the angle of your elbow than the direction you are pointing your hand, right? Or is it a matter of physics that keeping the forearm actually "vertical" is actually more efficient? I found that trying to keep my forearm "vertical" put more strain on my shoulders while angling them slightly under my body didn't. No idea if I'm doing any of this right, but it felt most "right" when I felt like I was trying to "grab" and pull in as much water as possible. Picture the winner of a hand of poker reaching out and "grabbing" all of the chips on the table. Does any of this sound right?

Thanks much!

Allen Stark
October 6th, 2009, 04:29 PM
It is my understanding that the key point is to be using your hand and forearm as a single propulsive surface and to keep it at right angles to the propulsive direction for as long as possible.The exact orientation to the bottom of the pool is not that important except as a visualization tool.

tomtopo
October 6th, 2009, 09:59 PM
The Benko video made things a lot clearer for me. Today in practice I really felt like I was "grabbing" more water but I knew my hands were not perfectly "vertical". Rather they were slightly angled under my body. Benko does the same thing, despite what she says on the video (check out around 1:30 in the video posted above, and again around 5:15). Maybe this is what everybody meant all along, but for some reason I thought I was trying to keep my full forearm pointing towards the bottom of the pool. That's more a function of the angle of your elbow than the direction you are pointing your hand, right? Or is it a matter of physics that keeping the forearm actually "vertical" is actually more efficient? I found that trying to keep my forearm "vertical" put more strain on my shoulders while angling them slightly under my body didn't. No idea if I'm doing any of this right, but it felt most "right" when I felt like I was trying to "grab" and pull in as much water as possible. Picture the winner of a hand of poker reaching out and "grabbing" all of the chips on the table. Does any of this sound right?

Thanks much!

Let's begin with the hand. The area of the hand must be as large as possible and stiff. The hand should not bend when it enters the water. The pressure a bent hand asserts at the beginning of the stroke is lost at the most crucial power phase of the stroke when it returns to a straight position. The ability to drop the hand under the elbow early and vertically is determined by shoulder strength and flexibility. The ability to exert the highest level of drag force (pushing back) for the longest time is the key to power and speed. It is necessary for the hand to move out of a straight line pattern to maintain peak drag force ( a vortex behind the hand forms when pulling straight back).
Everyone's body is different and requires the individual to adapt a pulling pattern that best suits their strengths and weaknesses. This is why a "coaching-eye" can really help you through some tricky nuances that require attention/correction. Get a good coach that can point out one or two things you can do to improve your pulling pattern then use some isometrics and drills to ingrain those new skills and make them a habit. Good luck.

geochuck
October 6th, 2009, 10:31 PM
One of the best tools to help perfect your stroke on land is a full length mirror. They also work wonders on the bottom of a swim in place pool. Many hours I have spent infront of a mirror.

Georgio
October 21st, 2009, 09:09 PM
EVF comming up comfortably now and adding more and more force. Speed is way up. Continue with the 2lb. dumb bell exercises before every swim to warm up shoulders. Will be ready to race soon! Thanks for all the advice. :bolt:

Georgio

swimbody
October 22nd, 2009, 07:29 AM
It is hugely necessary to nurture the shoulders while you are transitioning into this style of freestyle. Good posts on the shoulder exercises. They were the exact exercises I was given from a very expensive, but school sponsored doctor. The one thing to remember throughout this transformation is to keep your kick going. Too many people I talk to about swimming like this, concentrate on the elbow or shoulders and forget the kick.

I liken this concentration of learning the proper fast freestyle technique to learning the golf swing. Good luck.

Georgio
November 3rd, 2009, 12:15 PM
EVF is several weeks along now and working without problems. Body is still adapting and different muscles developing which will probably take several more months. Still doing 2 lb dumbell weight training warmup before swim. Developing a good two beat kick to go along with it. It's incredible to be refining my swimming skills after so many years in the water! Racing the grandson 100yd FS this Friday!

Georgio :bliss:

__steve__
November 3rd, 2009, 12:38 PM
Racing the grandson 100yd FS this Friday!

Georgio :bliss:Look forward to hearing you kicked your grandson's butt:)

bamueller
November 3rd, 2009, 04:12 PM
I tried to do EVF today at practice. I wore me out! I never fully recovered from the warm-up set (6 x 125's descening). We then went into a 2400 distance set, and I was fatigued.

Is EVF this tiring at first?

SolarEnergy
November 3rd, 2009, 04:14 PM
Is EVF this tiring at first? It could yes. For various reasons. A *try* should last several weeks ideally.

Georgio
November 4th, 2009, 11:22 AM
From my experience it isin't an overnight process for the body to adapt. If the purpose is to "load up" each stroke as opposed to doing a lot of "empty" strokes, you exert a lot more resistance on you muscles and in a different maner. It's a radical change for me. I compare it to paddling a canoe with only half the paddle in the water before. Good luck and I would suggest introducing it gradually, either by reducing number of swim workouts, or gradually moving your elbows higher over a period of weeks.

My overnight transition attempt hurt and was a set back for a few weeks. :badday: Good luck with it and post how it works for you.

Georgio

Georgio
November 19th, 2009, 11:24 PM
My Early Vertical Forearm stroke has evolved to my elbows barely below the water surface .....with the forearm at about 5 - 10 deg. to perpendicular to the bottom.....creating some lift. I will concentrate on perpendicular (no lift) to see what the outcome. No pain, all gain......with back, chest and more major muscle groups doing the work......I'm flying through the water! :banana:

Bamiller.......I felt like I was going to drown the first few lengths when I radically changed my stroke.....then discomfort, advil, physical rehab (at home), and 90 min. workouts 5 days a week for a few weeks ......now I'm enjoying refining the most efficient EVF stroke for me.

Georgio
April 21st, 2010, 07:30 PM
I have another EVF question. I have developed what seems to be an early and powerfull EVF stroke. A coach, who I don't think knows what EVF is, commented that I am dropping my elbows after my extension. I can see my elbow drop 1 - 2 inches immediately before my fingertips and forearm rotate to an early vertical position. It feels almost as though the drop elbow is the start of the mechanics to drop my forearm early in the stroke.

I'm experimenting with attempting to keep the elbow at least level prior to rotating elbow to early forearm. Of course it feels awkward, irritates my shoulder a little, throws off my timing and doesn't seem to provide as early a forearm or as much power. Of course with time, that could change and it could be an improvement.

Any input and advice is appreciated.

Georgio

E=H2O
April 21st, 2010, 07:48 PM
I have another EVF question. I have developed what seems to be an early and powerfull EVF stroke. A coach, who I don't think knows what EVF is, commented that I am dropping my elbows after my extension. I can see my elbow drop 1 - 2 inches immediately before my fingertips and forearm rotate to an early vertical position. It feels almost as though the drop elbow is the start of the mechanics to drop my forearm early in the stroke.

I'm experimenting with attempting to keep the elbow at least level prior to rotating elbow to early forearm. Of course it feels awkward, irritates my shoulder a little, throws off my timing and doesn't seem to provide as early a forearm or as much power. Of course with time, that could change and it could be an improvement.

Any input and advice is appreciated.

Georgio


At this point I'd have to see a video of your stroke to offer you any meaningful comment. I'm sure someone here might be able to offer some advice.

taruky
April 21st, 2010, 09:49 PM
I have another EVF question. I have developed what seems to be an early and powerfull EVF stroke. A coach, who I don't think knows what EVF is, commented that I am dropping my elbows after my extension. I can see my elbow drop 1 - 2 inches immediately before my fingertips and forearm rotate to an early vertical position. It feels almost as though the drop elbow is the start of the mechanics to drop my forearm early in the stroke.

I'm experimenting with attempting to keep the elbow at least level prior to rotating elbow to early forearm. Of course it feels awkward, irritates my shoulder a little, throws off my timing and doesn't seem to provide as early a forearm or as much power. Of course with time, that could change and it could be an improvement.

Any input and advice is appreciated.

Georgio

Funny you should mention that because I have the exact same issue with my left arm. We discussed it here; I include some video of myself.
Catch question - U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums

FireRox21
November 13th, 2010, 09:17 PM
So here is a little light on the anatomical make up of the EVF stroke. By popping up your elbow before you take your pull, you engage your lats and then use them along with your pecs for your power. This is a great relief for the shoulder since you are using bigger muscle groups in addition to just your deltoids. :applaud:
Continue to practice this technique and you'll find yourself getting stronger and pulling more water.

By popping your shoulder up, does this mean bringing your shoulder closer to your ear? I have been really trying to work on this EVF/High Elbow thing and am really starting to have problems with my left shoulder making all kinds of clicking and clacking noises, plus some pretty gnarly pain when pulling. I don't have the pain during sprints, but I think I am not focusing as much on EVF then.

FireRox21
November 13th, 2010, 09:23 PM
So here is a little light on the anatomical make up of the EVF stroke. By popping up your elbow before you take your pull, you engage your lats and then use them along with your pecs for your power. This is a great relief for the shoulder since you are using bigger muscle groups in addition to just your deltoids. :applaud:
Continue to practice this technique and you'll find yourself getting stronger and pulling more water.

By popping your shoulder up, does this mean bringing your shoulder closer to your ear? I have been really trying to work on this EVF/High Elbow thing and am really starting to have problems with my left shoulder making all kinds of clicking and clacking noises, plus some pretty gnarly pain when pulling. I don't have the pain during sprints, but I think I am not focusing as much on EVF then.

geochuck
November 14th, 2010, 05:04 AM
By popping your shoulder up, does this mean bringing your shoulder closer to your ear? I have been really trying to work on this EVF/High Elbow thing and am really starting to have problems with my left shoulder making all kinds of clicking and clacking noises, plus some pretty gnarly pain when pulling. I don't have the pain during sprints, but I think I am not focusing as much on EVF then. I suggest if you are having that kind of problem don't do what you are doing. Concentrate on pressing the water rather then pulling, using the hand and forearm. Brushing the ear is good but let the elbow find the comfort spot. There are so many shoulder problems caused by some one interpreting the sequences wrong. Make sure the elbow is pointed at he wall not at the bottom or the sky. Your body roll will determine the positioning of the elbow and this may differ from your interpritation of elbow position and does differ for everyone.

FireRox21
November 14th, 2010, 11:38 PM
That makes sense. Thanks Geochuck. I'll give it a go this week.

Georgio
August 7th, 2016, 07:35 PM
I mastered the stroke and was ready for competition. Then I suffered a torn pelvis musscle. Two surgeries and 6 years later, I've returned to the pool @ 500 yards 1x week from 3500 5x week when injured. I'm beginning to walk normally again and have high hopes for swimming in my life again. Thanks to Dr. Robert Meyers and the Vincera institute, Philledelphia.

renie
August 12th, 2016, 08:05 PM
Georgio,
Remember that EVF isn't about pulling, it's about setting up the hand and forearm vertically. If you watch my youtube (type in EVF + Swimming) you'll see some great exercises designed to accelerate an earlier vertical position of the bent or straight arm. Remember, you and every swimmer on the planet that moves forward, uses a vertical forearm/hand to propel themselves. Just how early you set your forearm/hand vertically is the thing you should be trying to improve.

tomtopo, how can I view your video? I typed in EVT+swimming in Advanced search and a dozen threads came up.