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swim4me
October 12th, 2009, 06:57 PM
My masters coach, who used to coach high schoolers, insists that we do (lately all) kick sets with running shoes (all stroke kicks, usually 5 sets of 100 or 2 hundred). I absolutely hate it! I can't feel the water on my feet, I feel like it's way too much effort to make any positive forward movement, and don't see how it will make me a faster swimmer. :bitching: So, am I just a big whiner, or do any of you see any benefit from a masters swimmer swimming with running shoes?

aquageek
October 12th, 2009, 07:04 PM
Yes, there's tons of benefits, like, for instance, you may get on the way back time machine and end up in the 1970s, when last this method was popular.

On the other hand, maybe Fort and I have finally discovered something worse than kicking with Zoomers.

JimRude
October 12th, 2009, 07:05 PM
It's a great way to blow out your knees...

__steve__
October 12th, 2009, 07:16 PM
It's a great way to blow out your knees...
Or ruin a good pair of running shoes.

Not an advanced swimmer yet but I like to do timed 25's without a kick board from a dead start next to the wall without a push. This is on my own since I don't practice with a team regularily. 25M is 34 seconds but as this improves then my kick must improve too.

smontanaro
October 12th, 2009, 07:19 PM
I seem to recall seeing some coverage a few years ago that Bob Bowman had Michael Phelps do kick sets with tennis shoes. Can't find anything with Google or Bing though.

tomtopo
October 12th, 2009, 07:24 PM
Here's one famous coach that uses shoes and tells you why he likes them.

http://www.swimmingcoach.org/articles/swimming_with_randy.asp

swim4me
October 12th, 2009, 07:26 PM
I use al old pair of running shoes, and I agree that it seems like an outdated training method. We did dolphin kicks today, so no strain on the knees, but I did tell him that one twinge on my knees and they were coming off. I am trying to decide if it is more agravating to wear the shoes or argue with him, which I do a lot of anyway (I am the most serious and experienced swimmer on the team - small team). :argue:

swim4me
October 12th, 2009, 07:37 PM
Here's one famous coach that uses shoes and tells you why he likes them.

http://www.swimmingcoach.org/articles/swimming_with_randy.asp

Good article, Coach T. So I guess my coach is not crazy or delusional (at least not as much as I thought he was). I still don't think I will look forward to shoe sets, but I will try to remember that if they don't kill me, they will make me stronger.:fish2:

JimRude
October 12th, 2009, 07:50 PM
At Cal in the early and mid 1980s, we used to kick with running shoes, crawl on our hands (with our feet supported by "wheels") up puke-covered ramps in the football stadium, etc etc. We also pulled with paddles the size of refrigerator doors, FWIW.

I'd like to think that just because some great coaches use(d) certain training techniques, doesn't mean they're still "best practices" or applicable to athletes of all ages and abilities...

swim4me
October 12th, 2009, 08:07 PM
At Cal in the early and mid 1980s, we used to kick with running shoes, crawl on our hands (with our feet supported by "wheels") up puke-covered ramps in the football stadium, etc etc. We also pulled with paddles the size of refrigerator doors, FWIW.

I'd like to think that just because some great coaches use(d) certain training techniques, doesn't mean they're still "best practices" or applicable to athletes of all ages and abilities...

By the dates, we are close to the same age. Would you like to do that kind of workout now? :cane:

qbrain
October 12th, 2009, 08:11 PM
Good article, Coach T. So I guess my coach is not crazy or delusional (at least not as much as I thought he was). I still don't think I will look forward to shoe sets, but I will try to remember that if they don't kill me, they will make me stronger.:fish2:

I don't think mental toughness should be a required part of Master's practice.

I have done kick sets with shoes, and I never saw any benefit. It certainly would make me look for another team if the coach thought they should be a regular part of practice.

JimRude
October 12th, 2009, 08:19 PM
By the dates, we are close to the same age. Would you like to do that kind of workout now? :cane:

Yes and no. I was in the best shape of my life then, and was actually able to swim a 200 breast without dying. I still incorporate certain elements of the training we did then into my workouts now - speed-assisted swimming, running stadium steps, core work, drills, hypoxic work, etc etc.

But swimming 15,000+ meters a day was not the best thing for me personally. So I think that I train "smarter" now, in my old age.

swim4me
October 12th, 2009, 08:53 PM
I don't think mental toughness should be a required part of Master's practice.

I have done kick sets with shoes, and I never saw any benefit. It certainly would make me look for another team if the coach thought they should be a regular part of practice.

The thing is that the pool, the location and the time work real with the rest of my life during the week. Not a lot of choices where I live. I practice with another team on Saturday and that coach leads workouts more tailored to master swimmers. I am one of the fastest (probably cause I am one of the youngest), but the coach is able to give attention to every swimmer as they need it. She usually gives us a drill and then a set that will focus on the thing we just practiced in the drill. She also give us aerobic sets and calls me out when I am not giving my best, or when I am doing something that needs correction.

The tennis shoe coach focuses his attention on his faster swimmers (also me, here I am one of the oldest, but I have the most experience). The days that I was protesting the shoe kick and not bringing my shoes, he put me on a rope and I made me do the stroke like that. He has never done that to other swimmers who 'forget' their shoes. Other swimmers comment about how much attention (usually yelling) he gives me and they are glad it is not at them. Both teams have about the same number of swimmers.

I guess I am rebelling, because at this stage of my life, I want to swim for swimming's pleasure. And if I choose to compete, I do it for the pleasure, not to make the olympics (I am older than Dara). The coach wants to train us for 'Worlds', but none of us are that competitive. I will do what the coach says, but being frustrated (by having to swim with shoes) at 5:00 in the morning when I got up to swim to get the 'good feelings' of starting the day by swimming, is making me not have the 'good feelings'.:rant3:

ande
October 12th, 2009, 09:03 PM
at UT we did a little some kicking and swimming while wearing shoes
not sure how much it helped.

We also did a lot of swimming and pulling while wearing tubes around our ankles.

Now, I don't use any equipment other than suits, goggles and caps.

I sometimes use kick boards to sit on during breaks in practice.

I do see a value to using fins in practice to work on speed and streamlining. BUT when you're in a meet you don't get to use any equipment

Chris Stevenson
October 12th, 2009, 09:19 PM
The thing is that the pool, the location and the time work real with the rest of my life during the week. Not a lot of choices where I live. I practice with another team on Saturday and that coach leads workouts more tailored to master swimmers. I am one of the fastest (probably cause I am one of the youngest), but the coach is able to give attention to every swimmer as they need it. She usually gives us a drill and then a set that will focus on the thing we just practiced in the drill. She also give us aerobic sets and calls me out when I am not giving my best, or when I am doing something that needs correction.

The tennis shoe coach focuses his attention on his faster swimmers (also me, here I am one of the oldest, but I have the most experience). The days that I was protesting the shoe kick and not bringing my shoes, he put me on a rope and I made me do the stroke like that. He has never done that to other swimmers who 'forget' their shoes. Other swimmers comment about how much attention (usually yelling) he gives me and they are glad it is not at them. Both teams have about the same number of swimmers.

I guess I am rebelling, because at this stage of my life, I want to swim for swimming's pleasure. And if I choose to compete, I do it for the pleasure, not to make the olympics (I am older than Dara). The coach wants to train us for 'Worlds', but none of us are that competitive. I will do what the coach says, but being frustrated (by having to swim with shoes) at 5:00 in the morning when I got up to swim to get the 'good feelings' of starting the day by swimming, is making me not have the 'good feelings'.:rant3:

This doesn't sound very healthy -- or masters-like -- to me. My opinion: lose the shoes, as long as it doesn't cause a problem for your lanemates. (Maybe lose the coach, too...:))

Sorry for saying so, but Randy Reese's opinions on this are ludicrous. Kicking/swimming with tennis shoes proves how tough you are? Oh please; the only thing it proves is how domineering the coach is. There may be legitimate reasons for using them occasionally, but that isn't one of them.

ehoch
October 13th, 2009, 11:46 AM
There may be legitimate reasons for using them occasionally, but that isn't one of them.


Agreed -

I am a very fast kicker and I have tried it -- there no risk of any damage - well at least a LOT LESS than any zoomers may have.

You do feel the extra weight on the feet on the up kick and don't have any feel for the water. I was amazed how much it slowed me down. I think the real benefit comes when you take the shoes off - you actually feel like you are wearing zoomers.

qbrain
October 13th, 2009, 12:31 PM
Agreed -

I am a very fast kicker and I have tried it -- there no risk of any damage - well at least a LOT LESS than any zoomers may have.

You do feel the extra weight on the feet on the up kick and don't have any feel for the water. I was amazed how much it slowed me down. I think the real benefit comes when you take the shoes off - you actually feel like you are wearing zoomers.


That would be a great reason to wear them... for a 25.

swim4me
October 13th, 2009, 06:03 PM
I have decided with everyone's input, to permanently rebel and no longer bring my shoes to practice. This is swim practice, not track practice. I don't enjoy it and have decided that I will not benefit from it. Thanks for the input.:fish2:

bamueller
October 15th, 2009, 06:13 PM
Is it better than cowboy boots?

swim4me
October 15th, 2009, 06:55 PM
Is it better than cowboy boots?

Haven't tried it. Decided no more shoes in the pool!! :fish2:

Chris Stevenson
October 15th, 2009, 08:15 PM
Why is Joe Cocker running through my head...?

Allen Stark
October 15th, 2009, 08:29 PM
I heard Scott Thompson,who is one heck of a good Masters coach ,say"you should listen carefully to what your coach says,and then do what you think is right."I did kicking with shoes in HS in the 60s.They are very bad for breaststrokers.

__steve__
October 16th, 2009, 12:41 AM
What type of shoes? Steel-toe combat boot's, loafers, my unused running shoes, flip-flops... I would have to purchuce a specific pair of shoes for swimming if requested of me.

swim4me
October 16th, 2009, 05:40 PM
The evil side of me does some running - 1 marathon, several 1/2s and now social running with buddies on weekends to keep up the conditioning and maybe do duathlons or tri's. I used a worn-out pair of running shoes. Some others used canves type shoes, they had a much easier time of it than I did. Everyone hates or hated it, but now that I have really rebelled, the coach is not assigning as many sets and he no longer fights me when I don't bring them, he just shortens my interval - I'd much rather have a shorter interval!!:fish2:

sydned
October 16th, 2009, 07:24 PM
None of this sounds good to me.
Your coach yelling at you continually, and sets you not only don't enjoy, but feel like you have to "rebel" against? What about this program feels good?

Good for you for doing what seems right to you!

setjore
May 3rd, 2013, 05:55 AM
I'd like to think that just because some great coaches use(d) certain training techniques, doesn't mean they're still "best practices" or applicable to athletes of all ages and abilities:cane:

splacke
May 3rd, 2013, 12:38 PM
When confronted with similar situations, I always evoke the "over 55 rule" which basically states that any workout can be changed/modified/adapted at any time for any reason.