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gull
October 12th, 2009, 08:31 PM
So I have decided to focus on the 1500/1650, partly because I seem to have misplaced the three fast twitch fibers I once owned, and partly because guys named Smith are now swimming the 500 and even the 1000. Geek suggested that I build my endurance with dryland work, but unlike him I have a job and limited time to train, and I don't really want to give up pool time. Any suggestions?

ande
October 12th, 2009, 08:48 PM
come swim with Longhorn Masters as much as you can
join us for fast friday, saturday and sunday practices

i stand by the advice in Last 150 of my 500 falls off

first post


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So I have decided to focus on the 1500/1650, partly because I seem to have misplaced the three fast twitch fibers I once owned, and partly because guys named Smith are now swimming the 500 and even the 1000. Geek suggested that I build my endurance with dryland work, but unlike him I have a job and limited time to train, and I don't really want to give up pool time. Any suggestions?

knelson
October 12th, 2009, 11:48 PM
I did a set last year that I thought really helped with distance pacing. The first week I did both 4x50 on :45 trying to hold my 500 pace and 4x100 on 1:30 trying to hold my 1650 pace. Then the following week I did 6x50 on :45, and the week after that 6x100 on 1:30. I kept adding two repeats until I got up to 20x50 and 20x100. Then I skipped a week, then the final week (probably two weeks out from Nationals) did both 10x50 and 10x100. So the only weeks you do both the 50s and the 100s are the first and last weeks. All the other weeks you just do one or the other. The sendoffs worked out for me to give very close to a 2:1 swim to rest ratio.

That first week you'll think to yourself "there's no way I'm ever going to make 20 of these," but by the time you get there you'll realize you can. That was the beauty of this progression to me: it helped both physically and mentally.

Other than that I recommend trying to do a set of 3,000 yards or more without much rest at least once per week. Personally I'm not a fan of long swims in workout. I think pace stuff is more rewarding and far less boring. I also do very little dryland. Not to say dryland can't help, but I don't think it's essential.

elise526
October 13th, 2009, 12:30 AM
I did a set last year that I thought really helped with distance pacing. The first week I did both 4x50 on :45 trying to hold my 500 pace and 4x100 on 1:30 trying to hold my 1650 pace. Then the following week I did 6x50 on :45, and the week after that 6x100 on 1:30. I kept adding two repeats until I got up to 20x50 and 20x100. Then I skipped a week, then the final week (probably two weeks out from Nationals) did both 10x50 and 10x100. So the only weeks you do both the 50s and the 100s are the first and last weeks. All the other weeks you just do one or the other. The sendoffs worked out for me to give very close to a 2:1 swim to rest ratio.

That first week you'll think to yourself "there's no way I'm ever going to make 20 of these," but by the time you get there you'll realize you can. That was the beauty of this progression to me: it helped both physically and mentally.

Other than that I recommend trying to do a set of 3,000 yards or more without much rest at least once per week. Personally I'm not a fan of long swims in workout. I think pace stuff is more rewarding and far less boring. I also do very little dryland. Not to say dryland can't help, but I don't think it's essential.

Kirk - I give a few private lessons to some triathletes training for Olympic distance tris. As you know, the swim is 1500 meters. Curious to know your thoughts on this set:

10 x 100 on 1:30
2 minutes rest
10 x 100 on 1:25
2 minutes rest
10 x 100 on 1:20

Also, I used to train with a triathlete that enjoyed this set:

80 x 25 on :25.

This was actually pretty fun and would go by fast.

Bobinator
October 13th, 2009, 08:38 AM
Starting about now when I swim solo I do 16 X 100 on descending intervals grouped in 4's starting at 1:50/1:45/1:40/1:35. I try to keep the repeat time at my goal 1600 pace time. You were have to speed your intervals up I'm sure but the concept might work. I usually do 4 X 200 warm-up with various stroke/drill combinations.
I finish up with 50's and 25's stroke too.

geochuck
October 13th, 2009, 09:24 AM
I still like evenly paced 100s with 10 or 15 sec rest periods. The rest periods can be decreased as low as 5 seconds when you a ready to do this. 2 sets of 15 with a 5 or 6 min rest between these 2 sets. They should be done at a little faster time then race pace if you want to be faster then you are now. Once or twice a week is good of course do your regular training the other days and don't forget your warmups and cool down swims..

aquageek
October 13th, 2009, 10:17 AM
Since you are apparently terraphobic and have a job, I will suggest that you do exactly what Kurt says, it's a good program.

I also think descending interval sets are great for this type of training, which echos Elise.

knelson
October 13th, 2009, 10:31 AM
Curious to know your thoughts on this set

I like it. I do plenty of stuff on descending intervals, too. If the intervals are right you might be able to push the first set pretty hard, then just try to make the final group.

George's set is good, but I wouldn't expect to be able to be able to hold your goal mile pace with only 10-15 seconds rest between repeats. I can barely do it with 30 seconds rest.

Iwannafly
October 13th, 2009, 10:32 AM
So I have decided to focus on the 1500/1650, partly because I seem to have misplaced the three fast twitch fibers I once owned, and partly because guys named Smith are now swimming the 500 and even the 1000. Geek suggested that I build my endurance with dryland work, but unlike him I have a job and limited time to train, and I don't really want to give up pool time. Any suggestions?

Having spent a little time in Austin, I remember the great running around Town Lake (I seem to remember there being lighted paths, but I could be wrong). I also remember visiting Barton Springs for a 'cool down' swim after a couple of our longer runs. Running is a great endurance booster and a 45 minute run will certainly get (and keep) your heart rate up.
Damn Smiths swimming 500s and 1000s!

SolarEnergy
October 13th, 2009, 11:57 AM
Geek suggested that I build my endurance with dryland work, but unlike him I have a job and limited time to train, and I don't really want to give up pool time. Any suggestions? I already have a huge endurance base built dryland, it just does not transfer to swimming. So I'd probably suggest - if like you're training time is limited - to avoid taking this path.

My cycling / cross-training endurance level is such that if it was transferring to swimming, I'd expect a 1500 well under 20m. Trust me, I don't get anywhere near this at the moment.

Your question is simple and calls for a simple answer. The main fitness component involved in performing the 1500 is anaerobic threshold. This component, as you already know, is best developed when training at threshold pace.

For me, intervals should be favored but they have to be designed in a way that favors threshold development. And for this, you just need to make sure that the rest periods are short enough so that your body can't really notice that you actually stop.

Half life of several physiological processes involved in maintaining threshold pace is ~30s. If you make your rest periods equal or shorter than let's say 20sec you should be ok. Then the rule is simple: the avg intensity including the rest has to match the threshold level. If so, you're working at threshold.

Now, for determining the intensity, I would strongly suggest that you use swim pace instead of HR. It is much easier to monitor and is also much more reliable. The scientific literature often recommend simple endurance tests to establish what your target threshold pace should be. It ranges from T1000 to T3000. Personally, I don't pay much attention to these standards. Any distance that belongs to the threshold spectrum is fine.

As a reminder, there's this good old Critical Swim Speed concept that would allow you to build smart sets. Based on two inputs, it can guide you in determining what target pace should be for any (longish) distance. For instance, you supply the 200 and the 400, you get the 3000. So you can tune a set of 15x200 on precise pace using this old principle.

And if you really want to get scientific, you may try to compute Skiba's Swim Scores. That allows for the whole season to be monitored the same way you'd do with TRIMPS. I am currently putting an Excel Spreadsheet to compute these as I intend to use this concept this year.

- - -
Ref
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0162.htm explanation of the concept
http://www.swimsmooth.com/training.html calculator (in the middle of the page)
http://www.physfarm.com/swimscore.pdf Skiba's Swim Score

Ken Classen
October 13th, 2009, 12:31 PM
I think most of suggestions here are good. One of my favorite set's (not really as it hurts) is 11x150's (SCY) or 10x150 (SCM) on a tight interval :10 to :15 seconds rest. Focusing hard on that pace clock and trying sustain the same pace at the end of set as at the beginning.

djacks
October 13th, 2009, 01:07 PM
One of my favorite set's (not really as it hurts) is 11x150's (SCY) or 10x150 (SCM) on a tight interval :10 to :15 seconds rest. Focusing hard on that pace clock and trying sustain the same pace at the end of set as at the beginning.

Ken (or others),
How close are you to your goal 1650 pace when you do a set like this? I'd be about 4-5 seconds per 100 slower than my goal 1650 pace. Note that this would be a "jump in and do it set" and not one where I'd mentally or physically prepare or wear a racing suit.

Given the short rest interval, I find it hard to get closer to my goal pace. Am I not pushing hard enough?

knelson
October 13th, 2009, 01:20 PM
Given the short rest interval, I find it hard to get closer to my goal pace. Am I not pushing hard enough?

No, I agree with you. If I started out a set like this on my goal pace I'd make the first one and then fall off. I think sets like this with maybe ten seconds rest are great for building your endurance, but I don't think you can realistically do them at your mile pace. At least that's my experience. And maybe if you can make your goal pace, your goal pace isn't fast enough!

jim thornton
October 13th, 2009, 01:56 PM
My best season for distance swimming was when we did a ton of 500s and 200s in practice. I personally prefer sets of 100s, but if I really want to get into good distance shape, I find the minimum repeat unit needs to be 200s.

Don't get me wrong: 100s are good, too. But 200s are long enough so that you really are simulating distance mentality here. For me, knowing I only have to swim 4 lengths of the pool and get at least a tiny rest (albeit sometimes just a breath on the wall and a break from a flip turn), well, it's just not the same distance mentality somehow.

Our coach, the locally legendary Bill White, was superb at subtly increasing the pressure over the course of the season. I think we started off doing sets of 4 x 200s on 2:45. Then he threw a few in at 2:40 and 2:35. Like Knelson said about his own approach, what would have seemed inconceivable at the beginning of the season slowly became just barely doable several months into it.

The crowning touch was when we swam 10 x 200 on 2:30, rested two minutes, then swam another 10 x 200 on 2:30.

For me, that workout was then, and remains today, the hardest practice of my life. And the best confidence booster ever.

When we went to a meet, I knew I could swim with quite a bit of endurance.

elise526
October 13th, 2009, 02:06 PM
Since this thread has the attention of the distance gurus, want to ask a few questions about pace based on the last time I swam the 500 (Actually, the next to last time as the last time was just a warm-up.). I consider myself a sprinter, but wouldn't mind improving on this event. Based on my last 50, could I have held a faster pace? Any ideas on how I can improve my pace and suggested intervals?


_____________________36 CVYS-SE 5:47.94
31.64 34.92 35.14 35.87 35.31 35.40 35.53 35.86
35.36 32.91

knelson
October 13th, 2009, 02:38 PM
That looks like a well split race to me. Your first 250 was 2:52.88 and your second was 2:55.06. I don't think your final 50 suggests you could have held a faster pace overall, but maybe you could have picked it up earlier. I like to consciously pick up my pace when I see 13 on the counter. Unless I'm really dead my final 50 is always the second fastest 50 (you do get to finish to your hand rather than your feet, after all), but I like the second to last to be faster than the 50s from the middle of the race, too.

Based on this maybe you should try pace sets where you try to hold either 50s at :34 or 100s at 1:08. As I've said in other posts, I can't hold a goal pace like this with short rest. Figure you need 15 seconds rest for 50s and 30 for 100s. If you try this and it's easy for you, then maybe you should try pushing it a little harder next time you swim a 500.

elise526
October 13th, 2009, 02:53 PM
That looks like a well split race to me. Your first 250 was 2:52.88 and your second was 2:55.06. I don't think your final 50 suggests you could have held a faster pace overall, but maybe you could have picked it up earlier. I like to consciously pick up my pace when I see 13 on the counter. Unless I'm really dead my final 50 is always the second fastest 50 (you do get to finish to your hand rather than your feet, after all), but I like the second to last to be faster than the 50s from the middle of the race, too.

Based on this maybe you should try pace sets where you try to hold either 50s at :34 or 100s at 1:08. As I've said in other posts, I can't hold a goal pace like this with short rest. Figure you need 15 seconds rest for 50s and 30 for 100s. If you try this and it's easy for you, then maybe you should try pushing it a little harder next time you swim a 500.

Thanks, Kirk! Sounds like I should set my interval around 1:40 to hold the 1:08 pace. For the 500, would sets of 10 be sufficient, or is it wise to do sets of 20?

Is there any benefit in doing a set of 10 x 100 on 1:20? On a REALLY good day, I might be able to make this set. I'm sure after three, I would be getting just a few seconds (2 or 3) of rest. In training for the 500, is there any benefit in doing a set of 10 with this little rest?

P.S. Sorry to gull for getting a little off the subject.

gull
October 13th, 2009, 03:00 PM
Thanks for the great responses. A couple of questions:

How much aerobic (En1) swimming should I be doing outside of the warm up and warm down? And how long should the anaerobic threshold (En2) sets be?

SolarEnergy
October 13th, 2009, 04:25 PM
Thanks for the great responses. A couple of questions:

How much aerobic (En1) swimming should I be doing outside of the warm up and warm down? And how long should the anaerobic threshold (En2) sets be?
One immediate question that pops in my mind is : Do you really want to turn yourself into a distance swimmer? (or do you - just like me - want to keep and maintain a sprint edge as well)

A second question would be : Out of curiosity, have you ever heard about the SweetSpot training principle? (It has been discussed over and over in the cycling world)

gull
October 13th, 2009, 04:41 PM
One immediate question that pops in my mind is : Do you really want to turn yourself into a distance swimmer? (or do you - just like me - want to keep and maintain a sprint edge as well)

A second question would be : Out of curiosity, have you ever heard about the SweetSpot training principle? (It has been discussed over and over in the cycling world)

Not familiar with the Sweet Spot training principle.

I never have been a sprinter; I have always considered myself a middle distance swimmer (swam the 500 and the 1000 in college). My coach, who was himself a miler, called the 500 a sprint.

geochuck
October 13th, 2009, 04:43 PM
Sweet Spot Training here is a graph

Betsy
October 13th, 2009, 06:06 PM
Like you, I started training for distance last year after years of avoiding it. It turned out I had a very successful year in the 1000, 1650, 800 and 1500. I'm 68 and do not swim as many yards as you might, but I found my training was right on. I did lots of sets of 1500-1800. I was amazed that my race pace duplicated my training pace. My favorite sets:
(1) 400, 2 x 200, 4 x 100, 8 x 50
(2) 5 x 100, 4 x 100, 3 x 100, 2 x 100, 1 x 100. Sometimes I descended within each set. Sometimes I descended the interval.
(3) 100, 200, 300, 400, 300, 200, 100. Sometime this was all swim, sometimes I mixed in some pull. I always concentrated on holding the pace.
As I got closer to the meet, I was amazed at how my pace improved. I swam a 500 in Feb at 7:50+. When I swam 1000 at zones, my splits were 7:30 and 7:33!
(4) A week before one of my mile swims, I did 18 x 100 on 2:00. It was a lot of rest, but I was not worried about cardio; I was worried about muscle fatigue. It was amazinig. I swam all 18 at 1:35. I thought I was exhausted, but I was able to swim the same pace for each 100. It was a neat feeling that I had gone into automatic pilot. It gave me a lot of confidence for the meet.

ehoch
October 13th, 2009, 08:45 PM
I am seeing way too many 100 sets being suggested -- this is a mile, you can do 15-20 race pace 100 sets closer to the meet - but in general, I would suggest some longer distance sets - 200s to 500s or ladders.

Threshold - twice a week 35-40 min set - go for best average, no big descending - if you do nothing else, do those 2 sets.

En1 - as much as possible as long as you are fresh for the 2 threshold sets.

Dryland - great to lose weight, but nothing else

Walls / Turns - if you are going short-course, make sure you work on your turns and transitions. I don't train for the mile - but I did one 10 days ago - my legs were actually the first thing getting tired from trying to get good streamline push-offs.

Mile speedwork - sounds a little strange, but also keep in mind your 500 time "required" to go fast in the mile -

geochuck
October 13th, 2009, 08:58 PM
I think you are only seeing 100s. When I swam in the marathon races I did not only do 100s. The 100s were only one part of training as I said, do them once or twice a week. I did the 100s twice a week. Never did 200s or 400s but lots of 1, 2, and 3 hour swims. sometimes twice a day. 100s were easy to hold at race pace.

SolarEnergy
October 13th, 2009, 09:09 PM
Not familiar with the Sweet Spot training principle. OK. Let me then refer to this nice description here

Basically the entire premise of SST is to work hard enough to stress metabolic systems and to encourage your body to adapt but easy enough that you can finish the intervals, sessions and you can keep on track through your weekly schedule and rack up a lot of quality time.

Now I'll come back shortly to further explain what it means.

While the 400m Free belongs to the Vo2max spectrum, the 1500 belongs almost exclusively to the anaerobic threshold spectrum. It basically means that the more volume you could do at this intensity level, the better it is.

That being said, this intensity - which represents the max swim velocity you can hold on a 20-30min duration - is very intense. Depending on your recovering ability, your time spent at this intensity within a workout may be limited. The number of workouts per week having main sets at this target intensity may be limited as well.

The Sweet Spot Intensity level represents the best compromise between *being able to book a lot of volume* and *working near threshold intensity level*.

With this explained, let me now try to answer your questions:

How much aerobic (En1) swimming should I be doing outside of the warm up and warm down? Euh ... if you're referring to basic low level endurance, I'd say none (except for drill and technical work as well as recovery swim between hard sets). The SST intensity should be the lowest intensity level to compose your main sets. An exception to this rule would occur if you really train a lot of hours per week. But if you're limited to say 6-10 hours per week, I'd say save the basic low level endurance for wup/wdown/drill/technical swim/recovery.


And how long should the anaerobic threshold (En2) sets be? The minimal duration of a Threshold segment is 10min. It is very hard to imagine being able to stay at this intensity for more than 40min. Remember that it is near some 1500 race pace. Say that you're worth 21 min over 1500 (at the moment), that would could something like 14x200 off 2:55 - try to hold a 2:40-2:45 pace. Feasible but not easy.

And when you're worth 20min flat, then this set becomes 15x200 off 2:45 - try to hold 2:35-2:40. Not easy neither. Sweet Spot intensity is far easier to hold, and still contributes a lot to threshold development. This could translate into something like 15x300 off 4:30 - holding a 4:15 (1:25/100m pace). Assuming you're worth 20min over 1500m, this is very reasonable and gives you little over 60min at targeted intensity.

So at threshold intensity, 15-30min is a very good set duration. At SST intensity you could double or triple this duration depending on the energy available.

gull
October 13th, 2009, 09:31 PM
The minimal duration of a Threshold segment is 10min. It is very hard to imagine being able to stay at this intensity for more than 40min. Remember that it is your 1500 race pace.

I thought that race pace (even for a 1500) was faster than threshold; isn't threshold (En2) derived from a T-3000?

ehoch
October 14th, 2009, 12:52 AM
It is very hard to imagine being able to stay at this intensity for more than 40min. Remember that it is near some 1500 race pace. Say that you're worth 21 min over 1500 (at the moment), that would could something like 14x200 off 2:55 - try to hold a 2:40-2:45 pace. Feasible but not easy.

And when you're worth 20min flat, then this set becomes 15x200 off 2:45 - try to hold 2:35-2:40. Not easy neither. Sweet .

Those times are even harder to imagine and for sure not feasible.

SolarEnergy
October 14th, 2009, 03:35 AM
I thought that race pace (even for a 1500) was faster than threshold; isn't threshold (En2) derived from a T-3000? Well that's a very good question.

I used Threshold spectrum as an expression because that's really what threshold is. To further qualify all that, let's use scientific words if I may since it would be a reasonable reference.

This spectrum begins with Lactate Threshold (aerobic threshold), which is commonly defined as an accumulation of 1mmol per L of blood, over your baseline, which is often 1mml (or less). That, you can hold for real long durations. Main limitation becomes the glycogen pool really. One step over that and you reach the onset of blood lactate accumulation (OBLA) which is defined at fixed lactate level (labs love that one). It corresponds to 4mmol per liter. That when fit some may hold for little under, little over an hour. Then at the higher end of threshold spectrum you get to MAXLASS, stands for maximal lactate steady state. This is the last inflection point over which the accumulation becomes drastic. That some hold near 20-30 but more reasonably 10-20.

Any work done anywhere within this spectrum should contribute to improve performances over 1500. But since this event correlates in duration and intensity with MAXLASS, work done at this level is more specific to the event.

Those times are even harder to imagine and for sure not feasible. They may or may not. 2:45 is little under 1500 race pace. 7 of them appears more realistic. These interval choices were made to illustrate that holding a hard threshold set over 20 or 30min duration may be difficult to achieve.

Forgot to mention that this SST intensity is kind of a spectrum (although somehow narrower) in itself. For instance, putting those 300 on 4:45 would still match this intensity. Some call that tempo. The idea is not to kill yourself so depending on what was done in previous days ect.

gull
October 14th, 2009, 09:22 AM
Great discussion. A coach of mine (Frank McGrath in New Bern, NC) refers to anaerobic threshold (En2) as "pay as you go" meaning that you are clearing the lactate as it accumulates. I always thought of En3 as being roughly equivalent to race pace, although perhaps that is too fast for a 1500. Two weeks ago I did a set of 15 x 100 @ 1:30 (scm) holding 1:18-1:19, which would be my ideal 1500 race pace, but I don't think I could hold that same pace on a set of 200s in practice without more rest.

qbrain
October 14th, 2009, 09:44 AM
I always thought of En3 as being roughly equivalent to race pace

En3 is when you are swimming as fast as you can without going into oxygen debt. The pain comes from not being able to get enough energy to the muscles later in the set and that you barely have enough oxygen to keep away lactic pain.

I think you are right that the 1500 race pace is En3, probably ending in SpWhateverYouHaveLeft, but it wouldn't be race pace for anything shorter.

SolarEnergy
October 14th, 2009, 09:49 AM
Correlations between commonly used terminology and the semantic used by lab operators kind of fluctuates. It sometimes take few adjustments in order make sure we're talking about the same things. I am not too crazy about bugging people with OBLA/MAXLASS etc sort of terminology but like I said, it is sometimes handy to refer to these to clarify communication.

The pay as you go expression you used very well depicts what's happening when training anywhere within the threshold spectrum (even at MAXLASS). The limiting factors however kind of varies. At lower end, the glycogen availability tends to be the primary cause of fatigue.

At the other end though (MAXLASS), the same remains true but you add on top of that an increased accumulated o2 deficit along with drop in blood's PH along with more muscle tissue damage on top of fatigue of nervous system (central/peripheral).


meaning that you are clearing the lactate as it accumulates. We now know that when training at threshold level, you allow your body to be more efficient in not only clearing lactate, but using it. It is (among other things) used as a metabolic fuel and to restore glycogen levels in the liver.

Two weeks ago I did a set of 15 x 100 @ 1:30 (scm) holding 1:18-1:19, which would be my ideal 1500 race pace, but I don't think I could hold that same pace on a set of 200s in practice without more rest. Not at this point in the season, but later on I have very little doubt. I think you are probably on for a sub 20m 1500.

Let us mutually hope this (it's my target over 1500 this year).

If you're already worth it though (sub 20) then no doubt you can swim on a 2:45 per 200 interval assuming you are properly rested.

knelson
October 14th, 2009, 10:16 AM
Threshold - twice a week 35-40 min set - go for best average, no big descending - if you do nothing else, do those 2 sets.

En1 - as much as possible as long as you are fresh for the 2 threshold sets.


I think this is good advice and I agree on the descending part. If you are able to swim much faster at the end odds are you aren't putting in enough effort up front. You should be struggling just to hang on.

geochuck
October 14th, 2009, 10:17 AM
How do we know this. Is it threshold or what. It depends on consumption of oxigen and what is left in the blood. Does the body float or are you a sinker? Does your stroke technique count? I once did 30X100yards on 1:25 and felt great.

The only way you will know you are doing a threshold workout is a blood test.

gull
October 14th, 2009, 12:11 PM
Threshold - twice a week 35-40 min set - go for best average, no big descending - if you do nothing else, do those 2 sets.

I will definitely try that. Typically we have been descending these kinds of sets, which obviously achieves different results. I guess the Sammy Save-Ups on our team will be blowing by me on the last repeat.

SolarEnergy
October 14th, 2009, 01:42 PM
How do we know this. Is it threshold or what....
... The only way you will know you are doing a threshold workout is a blood test Well, we don't care much about blood testing anymore.

You like simple stuff? If you swim your best avg speed over a 20min long duration you are definitely training at threshold. The Vo2Max level, which is the next floor after MAXLASS just can not be hold for 20min. To give you a better idea, the 400m is swam at Vo2Max level. Start a 400 All Out and try to continue up to 1500 at that pace without slowing down ;-)

So really, blood testing isn't required.

And even so. Even in perfect controlled lab conditions, two technicians may argue on where your MAXLASS occur. These curves on graphs are not as easy to interpret as some might think.

It doesn't matter that much to know exactly where you sit between OBLA (4mmol/L) and MAXLASS. Swimmers don't need to know these things in order for the training to be efficient.

pwb
October 14th, 2009, 02:40 PM
I did a set last year that I thought really helped with distance pacing. The first week I did both 4x50 on :45 trying to hold my 500 pace and 4x100 on 1:30 trying to hold my 1650 pace. Then the following week I did 6x50 on :45, and the week after that 6x100 on 1:30. I kept adding two repeats until I got up to 20x50 and 20x100. Then I skipped a week, then the final week (probably two weeks out from Nationals) did both 10x50 and 10x100. So the only weeks you do both the 50s and the 100s are the first and last weeks. All the other weeks you just do one or the other. The sendoffs worked out for me to give very close to a 2:1 swim to rest ratio.

I do like Kirk's suggestion and will try that when I next train for a mile, but ...


My best season for distance swimming was when we did a ton of 500s and 200s in practice. I personally prefer sets of 100s, but if I really want to get into good distance shape, I find the minimum repeat unit needs to be 200s.

... Jim and others are right. You need some longer distance swims.

Here are a couple of workouts I've done recently that I think are good for 1000/1650 training:


http://forums.usms.org/blog.php?b=5496
http://forums.usms.org/blog.php?b=4952

Chris Stevenson also frequently does broken miles and I think that is good.

I have no clue what En1, 2 or 3 stand for, but, for me, I think a lot of work on longer distance sets (300 to 600) over 2K to 3K continuously with relatively little rest (e.g., 5 or so seconds per 100) on as fast an interval as you can hold is great for building endurance.

For me, if I ultimately wanted to hold 1:00 per 100 in a mile (a goal not yet achieved as a Masters swimmer, but hopefully next SCY season), I'd want to be doing these distances aiming for a 1:05 pace on a 1:10 interval earlier in the season when aiming for most endurance work. However, YMMV as I tend to swim a lot faster come taper time pace-wise than I can hold in workout.

Chris Stevenson
October 14th, 2009, 11:03 PM
I have no clue what En1, 2 or 3 stand for, but, for me, I think a lot of work on longer distance sets (300 to 600) over 2K to 3K continuously with relatively little rest (e.g., 5 or so seconds per 100) on as fast an interval as you can hold is great for building endurance.

I highly recommend Maglischo's "Swimming Fastest" for lots of great ideas for distance training (and other types too, of course). V brief summary here, but go to the source.

Maglischo definitions:

En-1 -- what he terms "basic endurance training" -- is somewhere between aerobic and anaerobic threshold. Anaerobic threshold is where LA production/removal are equal; aerobic threshold is described as "the minimum speed that will produce an improvement in the aerobic endurance of slow-twitch and some low-threshold FTa muscle fibers."

Recommended set length are 2000 yd; rest intervals are fairly short (5-10 sec for short repeats; 10-20 for middle-distance; 20-60 sec for longer repeats).

Maglischo recommends that distance swimmers spend a lot of time in En-1 "most of the endurance training that distance swimmers do should be in the basic endurance category (En-1)."

En-2 is at anaerobic threshold ("threshold endurance training"). Example sets are 20-40 x 100 or 10-20 x 200 with approx 10 sec rest between repeats. Keep in mind the point is NOT to be at race pace; the point is to be at LT. He likes repeat distances of 200s or longer.

Maglischo says "Distance swimmers can and should swim more of their repeats near threshold speeds (En-2) than other swimmers." He goes on to recommend 1-2 sets of En-2 per week in the early season, increasing these in the middle season, and then tapering off later in the season as more training is done in En-3.

En-3 training is above LT and produces acidosis; Maglischo also calls this "overload endurance training." This would include most of what we have been calling "race pace" training...as long as the set lengths are fairly long and the rest intervals are not too generous. (For example, doing mile race-pace on a couple 50s with lots of rest is not very challenging and won't produce much acidosis.)

En-3 set lengths are somewhere between 500 and 2000 yards. Rest intervals can be somewhat longer than En-1 or En-2 but still not real long. Example sets are 6-10 x 200 with 10-30 sec rest. But he also includes as an example 10-20 x 100 on the shortest possible sendoff. I believe the point is to be producing reasonably high lactate levels for a relatively long period of time, not necessarily always swimming right at race pace.

Maglischo cautions about doing too many En-3 sets. In the early season there is little En-3: maybe some descending sets would dip into this area. In mid-season he calls for 1-2 per week, and 2 per week late in the season.

This is all very general, and he gives lots of examples (I notice that Kieren Perkins and Janet Evans seemed to do a little more than two En-3 sets per week; more like 3-4 per week). But some key points for distance swimmers are: longer set distances and repeat lengths, not a lot of rest, and the fact that more time should be spend below LT than at or (especially) above it.

qbrain
October 15th, 2009, 08:44 AM
It is worth pointing out that these to quotes from Maglischo are different than the race pace that is often discussed on the forums:

"This would include most of what we have been calling "race pace" training"

"an example 10-20 x 100 on the shortest possible sendoff."

The race pace defined above is completely different than the race pace in Performance or Pace-time? thread.

gull
October 15th, 2009, 09:21 AM
As a reminder, there's this good old Critical Swim Speed concept that would allow you to build smart sets. Based on two inputs, it can guide you in determining what target pace should be for any (longish) distance. For instance, you supply the 200 and the 400, you get the 3000. So you can tune a set of 15x200 on precise pace using this old principle.

So my CSS is faster than my "En2/anaerobic threshold" pace (derived from a T-1000) but slightly slower than my goal 1500 pace. You are saying that once or twice a week I should be doing sets like 10 x 200 with 20 seconds rest swimming at my CSS, correct?

geochuck
October 15th, 2009, 10:49 AM
Do we need codes?

I prefer to keep it simple.

I suggest you pick the time you want to swim, a 100, 200, 1500, for the 100 if you want to swim it in 1 min, that means 15 sec per 25 then start swimming it in 15 sec with a rest of 15 sec then reduce rest peiods, So on 200s could be done the same way using 25s or 50s, 1500s you can use 25s, 50s, or 100s.

djacks
October 15th, 2009, 10:49 AM
This has been a very timely thread for me as I just did a T-30 swim and I'm trying to develop a training plan around it. I'd welcome any critique on what I've got so far.

I created the attached spreadsheet based on the White, Red, Purple color system developed by retired University of Michgan coach John Urbanchek.

To create the spreadsheet, I used Coach Urbanchek's presentation found here...www.utswimcoach.com/MD_2005_final.ppt

My training paces are based on a T-30 test done at 1:13 pace (2,466 SCY):

White: EN-1 Aerobic Training
Intensity: Low
Short Rest, 5-15 Seconds
:10 Heart Rate = 17-20 bpm, 60-70% of 170 Max

100s Target Pace = 1:13.8
200s Target Pace = 2:29.5
500s Target Pace = 6:18.1

Example Sets @ T-30 = 1:13
12 x 100 @ 1:20, holding 1:14, :06 Rest
6 x 200 @ 2:40, holding 2:30, :10 Rest
3 x 500 @ 6:35, holding 6:18, :17 Rest

Red: EN-2 Anaerobic Threshold Training
Intensity: Hard but Tolerable
Short Rest, 10-20 Seconds
:10 Heart Rate = 21-24 bpm, 75-85% of 170 Max
Optimal Intensity for Endurance Improvement

100s Target Pace = 1:10.2
200s Target Pace = 2:22.1
500s Target Pace = 5:59.2

Example Sets @ T-30 = 1:13
12 x 100 @ 1:25, holding 1:10, :15 Rest
6 x 200 @ 2:40, holding 2:22, :18 Rest
3 x 500 @ 6:20, holding 5:59, :21 Rest

Purple: EN-3 VO2 Max Training
Intensity: Hard and Uncomfortable
Longer Rest, :30 - 1:30
:10 Heart Rate = 26-27 bpm, 90-95% of 170 Max
Ideal for 400-1500 Race Pace Training

100s Target Pace = 1:05.3
200s Target Pace = 2:15.1
500s Target Pace = 5:45.7

Example Sets @ T-30 = 1:13
12 x 100 @ 1:50, holding 1:05, :45 Rest
6 x 200 @ 3:00, holding 2:15, :45 Rest
3 x 500 @ 6:45, holding 5:46, :59 Rest

SolarEnergy
October 15th, 2009, 11:02 AM
So my CSS is faster than my "En2/anaerobic threshold" pace (derived from a T-1000) but slightly slower than my goal 1500 pace. You are saying that once or twice a week I should be doing sets like 10 x 200 with 20 seconds rest swimming at my CSS, correct?

Hmmm not quite.
1) I absolutely can not issue any recommendation as to how many times a week etc without getting involved little deeper into your planning as a whole. Some have issued recommendations that modulate based on the time of year, I think it is very smart.
2) I don't mind or care about the CSS pace as much as the CSS concept as a whole as a tool to find most accurate pace given the sets you'd like to compose (see note at the bottom)

I tried (hopefully I was successful) to attach an excel spreadsheet. Have a look and you'll understand what I meant (see at the very bottom of this post).

- - -
Note

Composing tight threshold or distance sets
I agree with every sets that were suggested so far in this thread as long as they meet these two principles:
1) AVG intensity of the segments [ 2 x (10x100 off 1:30) are considered as two segments ] remains in the zone you want to address
2) The little short recoveries between the intervals are under 30s (ideally 20s and less) so that your body barely notice about these recoveries
** btw, same principle for Maglischo's overload intensity sets, which very often will end up being Vo2Max sets.

Sample Threshold set based on CSS
Say you want to compose a set that is one 3k long segment. You pick the Excel Sheet (attached), look at the pace you should hold over 3k and build the set accordingly. In the Excel Sheet, the two data point used are 400m=5:40; 1000=14:15.
If you look at the row corresponding to 3000, you'll see that the suggested pace is 1:25.7. The set could be built around this.

Since 1:25.7 is the target pace, an interval of 1:25 may be little short. 1:30 may be little to long. In such a case, your best option is to see if you get a nice match with 200s. 2:55 would still be little short maybe. But if you think in term of 300s, then it's easy to find a suitable interval.

10x300 off 4:25 may be totally appropriate in this example scenario

Or even better here:
10x300 @ 4 off 4:30 / 3 off 4:25 / 2 off 4:20 / last one faster than 4:15. This gives a descending time edge to the set. That's an example of how to use the CSS concept to establish target pace for distance training.

hope this clarifies things a bit.

Chris Stevenson
October 15th, 2009, 11:39 AM
It is worth pointing out that these to quotes from Maglischo are different than the race pace that is often discussed on the forums:

"This would include most of what we have been calling "race pace" training"

"an example 10-20 x 100 on the shortest possible sendoff."

The race pace defined above is completely different than the race pace in Performance or Pace-time? (http://www.usms.org/forums/showthread.php?t=15287) thread.

The quote about race-pace training (bolded above) was mine, not Maglischo.

It seems clear (to me, anyway) that En-3 includes race-pace efforts. In fact, it is not TERRIBLY difficult to do mile race pace if the set length is short and/or there is adequate rest.

That of course changes as the set gets longer and the intervals more challenging. While some of the sets Maglischo gives as examples of En-3 training can be done at or near mile race-pace, not all of them can. Given the way he describes the goals and physiological adaptations to En-3 training, I can only assume that it is the elevated lactate levels -- and for a relatively prolonged period of time -- that is important to him.

But attribute any errors of interpretation to me, not him. :)

knelson
October 15th, 2009, 12:25 PM
While some of the sets Maglischo gives as examples of En-3 training can be done at or near mile race-pace, not all of them can. Given the way he describes the goals and physiological adaptations to En-3 training, I can only assume that it is the elevated lactate levels -- and for a relatively prolonged period of time -- that is important to him.

Yeah, this seems pretty clear to me now. En-2 means swimming at your AT pace. Anything faster that that (other than sprints) can be considered En-3. This could either be race pace swims or short rest swims that you really have to push it. If you aren't huffing and puffing when you stop at the wall you're probably working at En-2 rather than En-3.

How about this for layman's terms:
En-1 - Your basic, bread-and-butter aerobic sets. "Cruise speed."
En-2 - Hard aerobic sets. What would generally be considered a "hard" aerobic set.
En-3 - When given by the coach will elicit an audible groan by the swimmers :) "How deep can you dig?" type of sets. Both mentally and physically challenging.

qbrain
October 15th, 2009, 01:07 PM
But attribute any errors of interpretation to me, not him. :)

My mistake. Sorry Maglischo.

I agree En-3 can be mile race pace.

I do not think En-3 can be race pace for middle distance or sprints.

In general, En-3 cannot be defined as race pace.

Now that I know who was really behind the confusion, I am not surprised :)

bamueller
October 15th, 2009, 06:52 PM
Here are two of my recent favs, feel free to alternate times.

Total = 2000
4 x 50s on 1:00
4 x 100s on 1:15
4 x 150s on 1:55
4 x 200s on 2:35

Total = 1050, so you would need to do this multiple times, or keep adding to it.
50 on 1:00
100 on 1:30
150 on 2:00
200 on 2:30
250 on 3:00
300 fast 3:30
rest optional

I like some of the sets othes have posted so far.

Chris Stevenson
October 15th, 2009, 08:11 PM
My mistake. Sorry Maglischo.

I agree En-3 can be mile race pace.

I do not think En-3 can be race pace for middle distance or sprints.

In general, En-3 cannot be defined as race pace.

Now that I know who was really behind the confusion, I am not surprised :)

Now that I'm home and have more time to look again at Maglischo -- hereafter referred to as the bible -- here is some more.

He defines 3 additional levels of (sprint) training:

Sp-1: Lactate tolerance
Sp-2: Lactate production
Sp-3: Power training

The following are all examples of lactate tolerance sets:
Long intervals: 6 x 100 on 7 min or 3 x 200 on 10 min
Medium intervals: 12 x 50 on 1 min, 8 x 100 on 2 min, 6 x 200 on 3-4 min
Short rest: 3 sets of 4 x 50 with 10-15 sec rest

He also specifically discusses "race pace training" as a separate category, saying that repeat distances will need to be 1/2 to 1/4 of race distance for events 200yd or less, and 1/4 to 1/16 of race for distance swimmers.

"For middle distance and distance swimmers, race-pace training will produce the same adaptations as overload endurance training (En-3). When sprinters engage in race-pace training, the adaptations are more like those produced by lactate tolerance training (Sp-1)."

Despite the overlap, he likes to have race-pace as a separate category because it:
(1) "more closely simulates actual metabolic conditions of competition"
(2) improves a swimmers' sense of pace
(3) "helps swimmers discover the best combination of stroke length and rate for swimming at those speeds."

Of course, the converse is true, too: the physiological adaptations that are produced by race-pace training can also be achieved by swimming slower than race pace as long as LA levels are high enough (ie in En-3 or Sp-1 training).

I'm not trying to devalue race-pace training; the benefits Maglischo cites are very real. However, I have heard too many people dismiss or downplay the value of a set like 8 x 100 on 2 min simply because you cannot quite achieve race pace in it.

gull
October 15th, 2009, 08:45 PM
So let me summarize some of the key points of the discussion:

-The 1500 = anaerobic threshold, so I need to adjust my training accordingly;

-My training should include sets lasting 20-30 minutes with < 20 seconds rest between repeats while maintaining an anaerobic threshold or SST intensity;

-The pace for these sets can be determined by CSS,a T-1000, or a T30;

-Race pace sets can be constructed with 50s or 100s, performed sparingly early in the season and more often later in the season.

ehoch
October 15th, 2009, 08:52 PM
I'm not trying to devalue race-pace training; the benefits Maglischo cites are very real. However, I have heard too many people dismiss or downplay the value of a set like 8 x 100 on 2 min simply because you cannot quite achieve race pace in it.

I can for sure agree with that -- I think a good season should basically have a progression of race pace sets. This season, I am looking for a good 100 and 200 combo - in that order. Last year, I only focused on speed work and my 200 time was rather poor (but if you only want a fast 100, that would be all you need)- so this season, I am taking a more traditional season approach.

I can really only swim 2 hard workouts per week - the other workouts have some fast swims but not any all out main sets + I am doing 2 resistance speed work sets - which kick my behind like nothing else...

So I did:

3 weeks of Mile pace sets
3 weeks of 800 pace sets
3 weeks of 400 pace sets
3 weeks of 200 pace sets (that's right now)
3 weeks of 100 pace
3 weeks of pure speed

I really should have had 4-6 weeks of aerobic threshold work before - but I did not have the time (3 seasons a year is too many !!!!). At the meet ten days ago, my mile was just ok - but I had a really strong in season 400. Which makes sense - we shall see how the rest goes ...

qbrain
October 15th, 2009, 08:52 PM
-Race pace sets can be constructed with 50s or 100s.

100 to 400 for the 1500/1650.

SolarEnergy
October 16th, 2009, 09:04 AM
So let me summarize some of the key points of the discussion That's pretty much it.

I had a look at Maglischo's book this morning. I don't use his classification terminology (En1, En2 etc). Much earlier in the thread, I interpreted En1 as being an intensity level that'd be below LT (or aerobic threshold as Maglischo and some others call it). I was wrong.

Maglischo's En1 = Sweet Spot. It represents, like others have suggested, an intensity spectrum that sits in between aerobic threshold and anaerobic threshold.

Now I understand little better why Maglischo recommends that as much volume as possible be done at this intensity level especially for distance swimmers.

gull
October 20th, 2009, 07:39 PM
OK, so this was my main set today:

8 x 300 (scm) @ 4:30, holding 4:07s (right at my En2 pace)

Definitely a change from how I had been training; before I would have descended a set of 5 on a slower interval. I was able to maintain the same pace throughout, with the same stroke rate, but the last few were uncomfortable.

SolarEnergy
October 21st, 2009, 10:47 AM
Hmmm, these are actually very good results, fairly consistent (so far) with our calculations (CSS model is very strong and reliable. It is derived from the well known Critical Power Model applied to Cycling).

In fact, you could have done them on 4:25 instead. In case you fear of swimming on x.25, or x.05, these are the best possible intervals you can think of (in term of managing the number of reps). Because you can use the interval to count the number of reps.

First rep starts at .25, second .50 third .15 4th .40 and so on.

The pyramid might have been fun to. In fact, you'd probably have a ball trying it. It has a challenging flavor to it. 4 on 4:30 / 3 on 4:25 / 2 on 4:20 / the last one try to touch the wall faster than 4:15. In order to succeed in it though, it would be safer to touch 4:20 (instead of 4:07) for the first 4(off 4:30), between 4:15 and 4:20 for the other 3(off 4:25), little under 4:15 for the following 2(off 4:20) and as hard as possible for the last one.

That being said, the set you did was perfect. Rest was little longer than 20s but shorter than 30s which is good.

At this point, it's worth remembering that the choice of interval should be (in part) driven by the exact pace you want to maintain. In the case of a 3000m long segment, we remember that your CSS target pace was 1:25.7

Putting you on a set of 100s off 1:30 may not be challenging enough, a set of 200 off 2:55 (which is equivalent to a set of 100s off 1:27.5) may by too hard. The choice of 300m as an interval distance is much better in this case. Putting 'em on a 4:25 interval is equivalent to performing a set of 100m interval off 1:28.2 (which would be impossible to manage of course).

Conclusion, any interval duration works for En2 training. 50 and over. The idea is to find an interval duration that gets you closer to the overall average pace you want to maintain over the total duration of the set.

Well done!

gull
October 21st, 2009, 12:04 PM
On the basis of a long course workout this summer which included a timed 400 (5:15) and a timed 200 (2:35), I calculated a CSS for lcm of 1:20 which I believe is slightly faster than En2 (consistent with what Maglischo writes). My En2 for scy is 1:15 on the basis of a T-1000, and 1:18 on the basis of a T-3000. So I figure my En2 for scm is around 1:22-1:23, which is the pace I held for the set of 300s.

SolarEnergy
October 21st, 2009, 01:39 PM
On the basis of a long course workout this summer which included a timed 400 (5:15) and a timed 200 (2:35), I calculated a CSS for lcm of 1:20 which I believe is slightly faster than En2 (consistent with what Maglischo writes). My En2 for scy is 1:15 on the basis of a T-1000, and 1:18 on the basis of a T-3000. So I figure my En2 for scm is around 1:22-1:23, which is the pace I held for the set of 300s.
hmmm we may be talking about two different ways of using CSS though.

Did you use the Excel Spreadsheet I attached previously in an earlier post?

Like I said earlier, I don't care about CSS speed (your 1:20) as much as I care about the ability to predict time over any duration other than the two data input. IOW, you can, using CSS model (my spreadsheet), get prediction over any duration.

gull
October 21st, 2009, 04:21 PM
Did you use the Excel Spreadsheet I attached previously in an earlier post?

Yes. The suggested pace (according to the spreadsheet) is too fast for a set of a repeats on short (20 sec) rest.

chaos
October 21st, 2009, 05:37 PM
some great 1650 training: 3 or 4 days of 2-4 mile OW racing starting tomorrow...
http://64.177.90.244/asa/highlandlakes/index.html

tjrpatt
October 21st, 2009, 09:52 PM
Here is my suggestions:

doing a pull set of 400s, 5 x 400s

Here is another set from my vault of workouts, modify as you like:

800 free on 10:20
4 x 200 pull on 2:55
600 free on 7:45
6 x 100 kick on 1:45
400 free on 5:10
4 x 100 IM on 1:30
200 free on 2:35, did 2:10
4 x 50s fly on :50,
100 free on 1:10, did low 1:05
100 IM on 1:20

SolarEnergy
October 22nd, 2009, 09:01 AM
Yes. The suggested pace (according to the spreadsheet) is too fast for a set of a repeats on short (20 sec) rest. I probably got lost in the y-to-m / sc-to-lc conversion somehow.

You may try using some more conservative inputs maybe in order to rely on this chart, but anyway, you built and booked a great set so you certainly got the idea.

jackieg
October 22nd, 2009, 12:00 PM
This thread is very technical and intimidating, but to throw in my two cents ...

I do a lot of long sets because I am usually training for distance and open water. These can get pretty boring (and I tend to zone out and slow down), so I pretty regularly do the following (mixed in with some 100's and 50's):

It's a continuous 1500, but I break it down (in my head) into:

1x500, sprint the last 50
1x400, sprint the last 50
1x300, sprint the last 50
1x200, sprint the last 50
1x100, sprint the last 50 (all of this without stopping)

This way you never have to think about the fact that you are swimming a 1500. The beginning of the set is spread out enough that I have to keep my focus and keep my speed up, and the end is compressed enough that I have to really work on my speed and endurance. You can get a lot of distance out of the way quickly, and it gets more fun as the sprints get closer together.

As a side benefit for those interested in open water, this set also gives me a lot of confidence for unpredictable races, because I know that I can sprint through any currents I encounter and then get back into a comfortable distance groove.

Sorry for not using any acronyms in this post :)

geochuck
October 22nd, 2009, 12:17 PM
Acronyms and codes are not necessary, learn to use the clock and know how your body feels. These codes were developed by triathlete coaches in order to cash in on the suckers. I read this info 15 years and filed it in file thirteen.

If you don't know what file 13 is - it is the garbage pail.

SolarEnergy
October 22nd, 2009, 09:03 PM
Your comments are sometimes very entertaining fellow Canadian. Should I throw the whole Maglischo's book in file 13 also you think? It's too big and heavy. Guys will refuse to pick it up the truck

geochuck
October 22nd, 2009, 09:32 PM
Maglischo's book wiil have the same thing happen as Doc's book on the "S" stroke. It will be irrevalent.

$$$$ The money making book.

I am sure he did not write the book to be distributed free. What I would like to see is knowledge passed on free.


Your comments are sometimes very entertaining fellow Canadian. Should I throw the whole Maglischo's book in file 13 also you think? It's too big and heavy. Guys will refuse to pick it up the truck

Herb
October 28th, 2009, 11:39 AM
What about active rest sets? In Janet Evans' book, the entire section on anaerobic threshold training seems to be based on sets of varied intensity and active rest - sets like 1x100 at 80% effort with little rest, followed by 1x50 at low effort.

There seems to be very little mention of this type of training in Mag's book, although I haven't read through all 10,000 pages yet.

gull
November 22nd, 2009, 02:01 PM
DNF. That's what the final results will record for my first 1500 in three decades. Here's what happened. I was tapered and wearing a B70. I had planned to split it 5:15, 10:35 (5:20), 15:55 (5:20), 19:55. My first 400 was a 5:12 and felt easy, like a warm up. I was breathing every third and taking one SDK off of the wall on every turn. I was in lane 3; the guy in lane 2 was way out in front in 5:01, but the girl in lane 4 was even with me. The second 400 felt very good, and I established a significant lead over lane 4. I lost track of lane 2 but found out later that I was reeling him in (he finished in 19:20). I thought lane 4 had faded, but actually I had begun splitting 1:16s for a 5:06 for the second 400. Too fast. At the 900 I realized it was over, that I could not swim another 600, and I stopped at the 1000. My time, 12:52, converts to 11:35 (5:51/5:44) in yards, a Masters best, nearly 20 seconds faster than my planned pace. While the three hour drive to Dallas, the late start for the event (6:30 pm), and only one decent meal (breakfast) beforehand didn't help, my biggest problem was inexperience with this event. I have only swum the 1500 once before in competition, and that was back in the summer of 1978.

On Saturday I swam the 400 free and went 4:47.14, a Master best by 0.6 seconds, splitting :34, :36, :36, :36, :36, :36, :36, :34 (2:23/2:24), finishing second overall and getting touched out by the 35 year old who had been in lane 2 for the 1500. The over distance training I have been doing definitely helped; I was able to sprint the last 50 and swam the whole race breathing every third.

I plan to swim at least one 1650/week in practice and continue the anaerobic threshold training. Next time I will pace the mile correctly.

SolarEnergy
November 22nd, 2009, 03:23 PM
...my biggest problem was inexperience with this event. I have only swum the 1500 once before in competition Funny how your targeted threshold pace feels incredibly easy early in the event. Especially when well rested.

I can't help but thinking that by slowing down the pace, you could have done a solid overall performance over 1500 but I also understand your reaction. When you write that you didn't think it would have been possible to sustain this effort for 600 more meters. What happened exactly. Your O2 accumulated deficit was too high?

Question. Are you sure breathing every 3 early in this event is a good strategy for you?

Again, it's possible that an uncontrollable accumulated o2 deficit be the cause of your problem. If it's the case then there's even a chance that you could have sustain this aggressive pace throughout the event.

The great feelings you experimented early in the race suggest that your training had allowed you to handle lactate level very well.


On Saturday I swam the 400 free and went 4:47.14, a Master best by 0.6 seconds, splitting :34, :36, :36, :36, :36, :36, :36, :34 (2:23/2:24), finishing second overall and getting touched out by the 35 year old who had been in lane 2 for the 1500. Very well done.

Given your 4:47.14 and the fact that you train specifically for distance, I think you could have done U20 for sure. You may have expected to go as low as 19:30 (1:18).

But keep in mind that elevated acidosis is one thing you want to stay away from since it can slow you down. You train to improve this. But high accumulated o2 deficit is also a major show stopper. It gets you to panic. So be very careful with your breathing strategies.

qbrain
November 22nd, 2009, 04:26 PM
DNF. That's what the final results will record for my first 1500 in three decades. Here's what happened. I was tapered and wearing a B70. I had planned to split it 5:15, 10:35 (5:20), 15:55 (5:20), 19:55. My first 400 was a 5:12 and felt easy, like a warm up. I was breathing every third and taking one SDK off of the wall on every turn. I was in lane 3; the guy in lane 2 was way out in front in 5:01, but the girl in lane 4 was even with me. The second 400 felt very good, and I established a significant lead over lane 4. I lost track of lane 2 but found out later that I was reeling him in (he finished in 19:20). I thought lane 4 had faded, but actually I had begun splitting 1:16s for a 5:06 for the second 400. Too fast. At the 900 I realized it was over, that I could not swim another 600, and I stopped at the 1000. My time, 12:52, converts to 11:35 (5:51/5:44) in yards, a Masters best, nearly 20 seconds faster than my planned pace. While the three hour drive to Dallas, the late start for the event (6:30 pm), and only one decent meal (breakfast) beforehand didn't help, my biggest problem was inexperience with this event. I have only swum the 1500 once before in competition, and that was back in the summer of 1978.

On Saturday I swam the 400 free and went 4:47.14, a Master best by 0.6 seconds, splitting :34, :36, :36, :36, :36, :36, :36, :34 (2:23/2:24), finishing second overall and getting touched out by the 35 year old who had been in lane 2 for the 1500. The over distance training I have been doing definitely helped; I was able to sprint the last 50 and swam the whole race breathing every third.

I plan to swim at least one 1650/week in practice and continue the anaerobic threshold training. Next time I will pace the mile correctly.

Nice 400 Gull, sorry to hear the reasoning behind the early departure from the 1500. There was a lot of speculation on deck about why you got out early, but I had no idea it was you swimming. You were having a very good swim up to that point.

gull
November 23rd, 2009, 10:33 AM
I can't help but thinking that by slowing down the pace, you could have done a solid overall performance over 1500 but I also understand your reaction. When you write that you didn't think it would have been possible to sustain this effort for 600 more meters. What happened exactly. Your O2 accumulated deficit was too high?

Question. Are you sure breathing every 3 early in this event is a good strategy for you?

I have been breathing every third in training so that it now feels more natural than every other, and my stroke is more symmetric with better rotation. But perhaps that pattern contributed to an oxygen debt.

I believe that I could have finished strong if I had split a 5:15-5:20 on the second 400, but for some reason I began splitting 1:16s, totally unaware that I was going that fast. It finally hit me around 900, and by then I had passed the point of no return physically. Mentally it might have helped to know that I was that far ahead of pace (although the voice in my head was pretty loud).

chaos
November 23rd, 2009, 02:54 PM
I have been breathing every third in training so that it now feels more natural than every other, and my stroke is more symmetric with better rotation. But perhaps that pattern contributed to an oxygen debt.


how often do you swim a 1500 or 1650 in training?

try a breathing pattern of 2x right - 2x left.... a small difference (2 breaths per 5 strokes compared to 2 breaths per 6 strokes) but might do the trick.

gull
November 23rd, 2009, 02:58 PM
how often do you swim a 1500 or 1650 in training?

try a breathing pattern of 2x right - 2x left.... a small difference (2 breaths per 5 strokes compared to 2 breaths per 6 strokes) but might do the trick.

Good idea. I played with that pattern a bit today.

I never swim 1500s in practice. I think I need to change that.

geochuck
November 23rd, 2009, 03:23 PM
In a 1500/1650 I breathe on the left side every stroke but rotate enough so my stroke is balanced. Why go short of breath? The shoulders rotate the head follows. If it is in a pool I glance at the right side of the pool during the rotation.

chaos
November 23rd, 2009, 03:26 PM
I never swim 1500s in practice. I think I need to change that.

i never want to be surprised on race day, so for me that means lots of 1000's, 2000's, 2 miles, 5k's etc in practice.
ignore all those shouts of "garbage yardage".....(sprinters can be so cruel)

geochuck
November 23rd, 2009, 03:28 PM
Is it true sprinters are not swimmers they are body builders.

SolarEnergy
November 23rd, 2009, 03:35 PM
It finally hit me around 900, and by then I had passed the point of no return physically. Yeah I know what you mean here.

This is why I think that your issue is more one of breathing strategy than pacing.

Let me clarify. Very simple. I am a triathlon coach (not a swimming coach). In triathlon, like you know, threshold is the most important component. We know from coaching in cycling and running that even at MAXLASS (highest threshold level one may reach) the **bottleneck** to performance is more muscle related than breathing related. A large majority of athletes routinely complain about the fact that they have hard time getting out of breath. Muscles scream first, well before the lungs.

How does this translate? Say you start a cycling threshold set too fast, before running out of breath you gradually slow down the pace. Nothing to bring you to a point where you'd feel like giving up on the remaining of the set though. You just slow down and it pisses you off but nothing to throw away to whole set.

So when I read from your post that everything was running relatively smoothly until you rapidly got to a point where you felt like quitting the set I thought that the **bottleneck** you experimented isn't related to some limitation in your Threshold as much as an accumulated o2 deficit that prevented you from fully exploiting this Threshold.

If I was you, I would be very careful with this SDK you give after every flip turn as well as breathing frequency. Otherwise, you may sometimes hit a wall during the event that is not related to a Threshold limitation.

The air you breathe is pure fuel (you already know this). If you have the choice between using more or less fuel, always favor more fuel for longish events. If you ever get to a point where you can nail a 1500 all out and never run out of breath (meaning you don't use all the fuel available) then you'll have the option of using a more restrictive breathing strategy, but I doubt you'll ever reach this point though. And even if you did, the other option would be to add more kick which would burn this extra fuel.

gull
November 25th, 2009, 10:06 AM
Thanks for the suggestions.

Swam a 1650 in practice this morning and went 20:37, holding 1:15s from start to finish. Fought off the demons at 1000. One of my training partners took off fast, splitting 6:00 for the first 500, and I let him go; mentally that was very tough, but he faded and actually stopped at 1000.

__steve__
November 25th, 2009, 10:22 AM
What breathing pattern did you use, same as the race?

gull
November 25th, 2009, 10:28 AM
What breathing pattern did you use, same as the race?

Every third, switching to every other for the last few hundred.

jim thornton
November 25th, 2009, 12:19 PM
Every third, switching to every other for the last few hundred.

I am curious about the bilateral breathing. Do you do this because you can detect actual improvement in your swimming performance, or do you do it based on the theoretical belief that it balances your stroke in some way?

I don't mean to sound flip here, it's just that there are a number of swimming technique aspects that sound good on paper, and make intuitive sense, but don't necessarily work well for every individual.

I had the chance to interview Dara Torres a few years back, and I asked her about breath restriction and SDKs on her 50 and 100. She told me she tried both these things but then, with her coach's backing, abandoned them because they weren't helping her swim faster. She said she breathes every stroke on the 50, which I don't think is technically true, but I know she breathes much more often than the sprinting orthodoxy recommends.

Anyhow, I have never found bilateral breathing to be at all helpful for me at any distance. During practice, maybe, it can be a useful exercise and distraction on occasion. It's not just that I run out of air because of having to wait the extra arm stroke. It's more that I can't breathe as efficiently on my non-normal breathing side. It's actually easier for me to breathe every two complete cycles (4 individual arm pulls) than to bilateral breathe (i.e., every 3 arm pulls.)

Ditto for sneaking a breath after surfacing off the walls. I do try to take the first pull with the arm on my non-breathing side, which delays the pop up slightly. But trying to go much further off the walls without air, especially on 200s and higher, seems to hurt me more than help.

Bottom line: maybe the next time you do a 1650 in practice, try swimming without any bilateral breathing and see if this slows you down, speeds you up, or leaves things unchanged. If either of the latter two prove the case, I say abandon the strategy unless it makes you feel more comfortable during a race.

orca1946
November 25th, 2009, 01:16 PM
I train to hold the pace from 300 thru 1200 & then build up speed if I can.

gull
November 25th, 2009, 01:47 PM
I am curious about the bilateral breathing. Do you do this because you can detect actual improvement in your swimming performance, or do you do it based on the theoretical belief that it balances your stroke in some way?

I started breathing bilaterally a few years ago primarily to deal with impingement problems in my left shoulder. It took quite awhile for it to feel natural. Now it does. My 400 free on Saturday was a Masters best for me, and I was breathing bilaterally the entire way. I think that my stroke may be more efficient because I am more symmetric. But the question about oxygen debt in longer races is a legitimate one. At Beijing all of the swimmers in the final of the 1500 were breathing every other.

Taking one SDK off the wall on every turn was a struggle initially, now my turns don't feel right if I don't.

ourswimmer
November 25th, 2009, 02:10 PM
I started breathing bilaterally a few years ago primarily to deal with impingement problems in my left shoulder. It took quite awhile for it to feel natural. Now it does. My 400 free on Saturday was a Masters best for me, and I was breathing bilaterally the entire way. I think that my stroke may be more efficient because I am more symmetric. But the question about oxygen debt in longer races is a legitimate one. At Beijing all of the swimmers in the final of the 1500 were breathing every other.

You might try always breathing to the same side of the pool, so that you breathe to your own right one way and your own left the other way. I used to breathe every third arm for similar reasons as you, but I am faster with more oxygen.

SolarEnergy
November 25th, 2009, 02:30 PM
You might try always breathing to the same side of the pool, so that you breathe to your own right one way and your own left the other way. This is what I often do.

Recently, I joined a squad - we train in a choppy pool. I usually lead sets or start 2nd or 3rd. I like to breathe on this inside lane side (that would be left hand side) to go then on the rope side (right side) on way back.

Anyway, no matter the pattern, this is how I maintain this crucial ability, which is to be able to see the competition wherever it is. I even think about breathing on the side at butterfly once in a while for the same reason.

As to the balance thing. I see nothing wrong in specializing each arm. The arm on the side you breathe has a different role than the arm on the non breathing side, and there's nothing wrong with that. Indirectly, I guess I am against breathing every 3, unless in certain exceptions (females, 2beat kickers with high turnover etc).

knelson
November 25th, 2009, 03:18 PM
I could be wrong about this, but it seems to me female swimmers are much more likely to breathe bilaterally than males are. My theory is that females are more likely to listen to their coaches' advice and lots of coaches advocate breathing to both sides.

SolarEnergy
November 25th, 2009, 04:48 PM
I could be wrong about this, but it seems to me female swimmers are much more likely to breathe bilaterally than males are. My theory is that females are more likely to listen to their coaches' advice and lots of coaches advocate breathing to both sides. That's funny ;-)

Truth of the matter though is well. Two very simple things:
1.
Females have a higher turnover. Even if they'd breathe every 3 then endup breathing more often than for instance when GBrain is breathing every 3 (given his turnover rate).
2.
Females have a lowerbody that floats better, which means that with a proper technique they can really swim real energy efficient 2 beat kick.

Bring me any coach that advocates restricting O2 intake during a threshold based event, I may have a word or two for him....

Principle is relatively simple. It's a matter of bottleneck. You don't want your performance to be limited by O2 Accumulated deficit for the good reason that at threshold level, the bottleneck should (hopefully) not be there.

Things are different at Vo2Peak or even over this level.

And by the way, same goes with those nicely fashioned push off with dolphin kicking (underwater). Very nice when you see world class athletes performing these, but they can be very harmful for performance over 1500. They can literally kill your event.

gull
February 20th, 2010, 03:14 PM
19:55.13

Swam the 1650 today at, approprately enough, the First Colony Masters "There's a First Time For Everything" meet in Houston.

ande
February 20th, 2010, 03:20 PM
good job
how was it?
what were you hoping for?
splits?

ande


19:55.13
Swam the 1650 today at, approprately enough, the First Colony Masters "There's a First Time For Everything" meet in Houston.

gull
February 20th, 2010, 03:31 PM
good job
how was it?
what were you hoping for?
splits?

ande

My goal has been to break 20:00. Held 1:12s, which was my plan. The last 400 hurt.

Wore a B70, rested a few days this week.

orca1946
February 20th, 2010, 03:58 PM
Nice time, I wish I could do that !

gull
February 20th, 2010, 07:32 PM
Nice time, I wish I could do that !

Thanks. Back in 2003 it did not seem possible.

Regina
February 20th, 2010, 08:49 PM
In my opinion, you need to establish practice sets that are challenging to you AND maintain your interest day to day - week to week-month to month etc., including some that you will use as Test Sets. The reliable Test Set that I utilize is swimming 2000 yards and determining my average pace per hundred . This gives me a solid baseline from which to measure my improvement.
Here are just a few sets I will do to train for the 1500 and Open Water Swims up to 6 miles:
1) 11-10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1 (subract 1:40 from overal time - this = 10 seconds rest per repeat). Goal is to maintain your goal pace depending where you are at for the season.
2) 30x100 maintain constant goal time and interval (resting no less than 5 seconds and no more than 10 -interval established before beginning set) Hold pace - Can descend the last 5 100's.
3) 5x25/5 + 2x50/5 + 100 + 200 + 300 + 300 + 200 + 100 + 2x50/5 + 5x25/5 (choose rest of 5 OR 10, starting after the first 100 )
4) 3x500/60 goal to hold race pace + sprint 100/5 plus sprint 2x25/5.
5) This could be a "Mix-Up Set" such as Pull,K,Fins etc. I chose to do this all kicking with long fins: 1650 holding set pace (get time)/ then 3x500 resting 20 seconds between each 500 + 100/10 + 50 (Get total time). Goal is to hold a set pace faster than the earlier 1650. For me I will do this again to obtain improvement. It was great for leg fatigue and mental concentration.
6) Did this once. Swam for 2 hours in pool hitting established pace. I did "touch and go" open turns at 100's to catch time. However, as a twist, I flipped just a little early every turn so that I did not use wall for push off and had to use legs efficiently to re-establish body position while maintaining pace.
The Best
Regina

Regina
February 20th, 2010, 09:02 PM
In my opinion, you need to establish practice sets that are challenging to you AND maintain your interest day to day - week to week-month to month etc., including some that you will use as Test Sets. The reliable Test Set that I utilize is swimming 2000 yards and determining my average pace per hundred . This gives me a solid baseline from which to measure my improvement.
Here are just a few sets I will do to train for the 1500 and Open Water Swims up to 6 miles:
1) 11-10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1 (subract 1:40 from overal time - this = 10 seconds rest per repeat). Goal is to maintain your goal pace depending where you are at for the season.
2) 30x100 maintain constant goal time and interval (resting no less than 5 seconds and no more than 10 -interval established before beginning set) Hold pace - Can descend the last 5 100's.
3) 5x25/5 + 2x50/5 + 100 + 200 + 300 + 300 + 200 + 100 + 2x50/5 + 5x25/5 (choose rest of 5 OR 10, starting after the first 100 )
4) 3x500/60 goal to hold race pace + sprint 100/5 plus sprint 2x25/5.
5) This could be a "Mix-Up Set" such as Pull,K,Fins etc. I chose to do this all kicking with long fins: 1650 holding set pace (get time)/ then 3x500 resting 20 seconds between each 500 + 100/10 + 50 (Get total time). Goal is to hold a set pace faster than the earlier 1650. For me I will do this again to obtain improvement. It was great for leg fatigue and mental concentration.
6) Did this once. Swam for 2 hours in pool hitting established pace. I did "touch and go" open turns at 100's to catch time. However, as a twist, I flipped just a little early every turn so that I did not use wall for push off and had to use legs efficiently to re-establish body position while maintaining pace.
The Best
Regina

Bobinator
February 20th, 2010, 10:26 PM
Hi gull! Congratulations on a great mile!

How long did it take for your impingement to go away after you started bi-lateral breathing? Did you do anything else to treat the problem?

thanks,

Impinged in Indiana

gull
February 20th, 2010, 11:06 PM
Hi gull! Congratulations on a great mile!

How long did it take for your impingement to go away after you started bi-lateral breathing? Did you do anything else to treat the problem?

thanks,

Impinged in Indiana

It requires constant maintenance. Here is what I did beginning in 2003:
1. Saw a PT and did RC exercises (which I still do regularly). Without my PT I would not be swimming.
2. Used ice and anti-inflammatories (Vioxx was amazing).
3. Modified my workouts, avoiding paddles (which I now use) and fly (which I am swimming again).
Started to see improvement after six months. I switched to bilateral breathing later (2005?), but it took quite awhile to feel natural.

Bobinator
February 20th, 2010, 11:16 PM
Thanks Gull!
I'm going to a Chiropractor, getting Graston Therapy, and starting to get serious about RC exercises. I'm not sure if I have an actual impingement but my left shoulder is constantly stiff and radiates into the neck. It doesn't bother me much when I swim. I'd say driving is where it causes me the most problems.
What exercises did you feel were the most beneficial to you?

jim thornton
February 20th, 2010, 11:36 PM
It requires constant maintenance. Here is what I did beginning in 2003:
1. Saw a PT and did RC exercises (which I still do regularly). Without my PT I would not be swimming.
2. Used ice and anti-inflammatories (Vioxx was amazing).
3. Modified my workouts, avoiding paddles (which I now use) and fly (which I am swimming again).
Started to see improvement after six months. I switched to bilateral breathing later (2005?), but it took quite awhile to feel natural.

Ditto congratulations on an excellent 1650.

In terms of item #2 on your list, what do you--as a cardiologist--think about the following:


Vioxx's link to heart problems (knowingly suppressed for four years) that damaged Merck's once admirable reputation
the idea that plain old generic ibuprofen and naprosen are Cox-2 Inhibitors, though not selectively so--why would Vioxx be any better? Just an individual response on your part?

the idea that shoulder overuse problems (including rotator cuff "impingement" problems) are increasingly viewed by orthopedic researchers as tendonosis rather than tendinitis, and that kiboshing inflammation is exactly the opposite of what you want to do
that most of these problems, unless there is traumatic damage (SLAP lesion, rotator cuff tear, and so forth) are self-limited, and that you might have healed over time without VIOXX, perhaps even faster
and that the RC exercises (and ice) may have been the most valuable elements here by 1. tightening an overly lax capsule, keeping the humeral head stabilized, and 2. providing some pain relief and increased blood flow?


The reason I ask is that it seems to me there really has been a sea change in how swimmers shoulder is being viewed--and yesteryear's idea of attacking inflammation (via NSAIDS or cortisone injections) is more and more emerging as counterproductive (there is no evidence of inflammation, for one thing) and injurious (retarded healing rates and, with cortisone injections especially, evidence of weakened connective tissues.)

gull
February 21st, 2010, 08:30 AM
Ditto congratulations on an excellent 1650.

In terms of item #2 on your list, what do you--as a cardiologist--think about the following:


Vioxx's link to heart problems (knowingly suppressed for four years) that damaged Merck's once admirable reputation
the idea that plain old generic ibuprofen and naprosen are Cox-2 Inhibitors, though not selectively so--why would Vioxx be any better? Just an individual response on your part?

the idea that shoulder overuse problems (including rotator cuff "impingement" problems) are increasingly viewed by orthopedic researchers as tendonosis rather than tendinitis, and that kiboshing inflammation is exactly the opposite of what you want to do
that most of these problems, unless there is traumatic damage (SLAP lesion, rotator cuff tear, and so forth) are self-limited, and that you might have healed over time without VIOXX, perhaps even faster
and that the RC exercises (and ice) may have been the most valuable elements here by 1. tightening an overly lax capsule, keeping the humeral head stabilized, and 2. providing some pain relief and increased blood flow?


The reason I ask is that it seems to me there really has been a sea change in how swimmers shoulder is being viewed--and yesteryear's idea of attacking inflammation (via NSAIDS or cortisone injections) is more and more emerging as counterproductive (there is no evidence of inflammation, for one thing) and injurious (retarded healing rates and, with cortisone injections especially, evidence of weakened connective tissues.)

Excellent points. Vioxx and related drugs are selective Cox-2 inhibitors, unlike Ibuprofen which is nonselective, inhibiting both Cox-2 and Cox-1. I personally found it to be the most effective of the Cox-2 inhibitors and far more effective than any of the other nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory agents. Every drug has potential side effects, including aspirin, which in a large study from Harvard actually increased the risk of intracranial hemorrhage in healthy physicians. Selective Cox-2 inhibition does come at a price which for some reason was not anticipated. Inhibition of Cox-2 without Cox-1 inhibition increased the risk of thrombosis in patients with coronary artery disease; whether a daily aspirin is sufficient to negate this effect is unclear to me. Other Cox-2 inhibitors, like Celebrex, remain on the market but should be used with caution by individuals with CAD.

I am well aware of the concept of tendinosis and the rationale for not treating inflammation. I tried that for awhile and continued to experience pain. I discussed this with my orthopedist who shared my view that pain = inflammation and recommended anti-inflammatory treatment along with PT.

Interestingly, while I was taking Vioxx my migraines completely disappeared. They recurred when I stopped. It was later learned that the drug was very good at migraine prophylaxis.

jim thornton
February 21st, 2010, 09:59 AM
I am well aware of the concept of tendinosis and the rationale for not treating inflammation. I tried that for awhile and continued to experience pain. I discussed this with my orthopedist who shared my view that pain = inflammation and recommended anti-inflammatory treatment along with PT.

Interestingly, while I was taking Vioxx my migraines completely disappeared. They recurred when I stopped. It was later learned that the drug was very good at migraine prophylaxis.

Interesting points. There is no question that shoulder problems are painful, but the link to inflammation seems suspect. I attended the ACSM conference in Indianapolis a couple years ago and there was a presentation on the evidence for treating these kinds of injuries with NSAIDS. If I remember correctly, one of the presenters said that there is no evidence for inflammation in many of these persistent problems (swimmers shoulder, achilles "tendinitis", tennis elbow, and other select areas where the blood supply is not all that great to begin with.) Animal studies seemed to show that NSAIDS could retard healing rates for some injuries, particularly fractures. There was some talk about how Tylenol works as well as NSAIDS in blinded studies for pain control, but without the possibility of weakening tissues. One of the other areas of investigation--and I am not sure if this panned out or not--was to use nitroglycerine patches to promote blood circulation to poorly vascularized areas like the elbow. The use of eccentric exercise here to promote inflammation and expedite healing was also discussed.

As far as migraines go, I used to be a regular sufferer of these, but their frequency has definitely decreased over the years. One headache doc from Chicago I interviewed for a story once told me that this is not uncommon. With age, he said, virtually everyone undergoes some hardening of the arteries, and as the arteries in the brain lose some of their elasticity, their ability to spasm and trigger migraines similarly decreases.

Who would have thought there might be a silver lining to atherosclerosis of the carotids?

In any event, I wrote about my last (knock on wood) migraine for my vlog. As a fellow sufferer, you might find interesting a strategy I developed for myself while in the throes of migraine suffering:

http://forums.usms.org/blog.php?b=3702

Good luck with your shoulders, and again, great time on the 1650!

jim clemmons
February 21st, 2010, 03:04 PM
19:55.13

Swam the 1650 today at, approprately enough, the First Colony Masters "There's a First Time For Everything" meet in Houston.

Good job, Gull. :chug:

Now that you've popped the 20 minute mark, there'll be a bunch more to follow.

jaegermeister
February 21st, 2010, 04:50 PM
Great swim! I'm planning to do my first 1650 in less than 2 months and wish I had seen this thread in October.

Vioxx was a great pain reliever. Many people still get teary eyed when they think of it.

Tendonitis is, as I understand, typically chronic inflammation. There is a difference in how chronic vs. acute is driven, and I'd agree that relying on NSAIDs is not a long term proposition. Injections will work for some because the high steroid dose will quash whatever inflammation is there, provided there is sufficient rest in the short term and accompanying work on the biomechanics in the long term.

gull
February 21st, 2010, 07:20 PM
Absolutely agree, Dr. Jaeger. I believe that in my case Vioxx treated the recurrent bouts of acute inflammation, but the longterm solution was PT and attention to stroke mechanics.