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swimbody
October 22nd, 2009, 07:13 AM
I know there have been numerous threads posted about this and I've read the USMS Masters statement, thanks Ande.

Nevertheless,

I have never swam with these magic suits that has FINA in such a tizzie. I never will swim with them as I joined masters swimming just this year. I guess I missed an era :(. I would like to know how many folks are still racing with the suits (did Rowdy use one in his world record swims this weekend)? In addition, how many folks who set masters world records this year, used the high tech suits?

I know it would be fun to wear one of those suits and easily pull out a time I have no business going at 38 years old. I guess if I went some insane time in the 100 free, I'd have a hard time getting myself back into the mental state to swim knowing that the marks I set will never be attainable by me if I can no longer wear the suit. I think we are going to be very surprised at the swim times produced around the world come January 1, 2010. I think it will be a devastating blow to the sport IMHO. FINA will have to deal with that when that occurs.

So I'm curious how many swims are going to be swum in Atlanta next spring with the tech suits? I bet I'm the only one on the blocks without one like I was at my first meet this year.

I thought it was funny to be rather old school and beat all these guys with the full body batman outfits.

Am I a little envious, sure. I wish I could have worn one when the suits weren't in a state of speculation and then showed people my best times and said, "oh, of course not I wasn't wearing one of those tech suits, no, that was from my honest to goodness hard work"... But I never will if the ruling continues to hold.

I won't ever have an asterisk next to my name.

Calvin S
October 22nd, 2009, 02:22 PM
As long as they are legal, I will use them. I mostly swim USA-S anyways and have to abide by their new set of rules, but if USMS keeps the suits around until the end of SCY season, you can count on me breaking out my b70 for the meet. if the meet were prelims/finals, i would probably swim in a "purist" suit for prelims and put on my tech suit for finals, but since its all timed finals, the b70 will suffice.


I won't ever have an asterisk next to my name.

neither will i. why should i care about an asterix anyways? as long as i swam within the bounds of the rules, I have nothing to be ashamed of.

ande
October 22nd, 2009, 02:42 PM
Hi Graham,

At the 2010 USMS SC Nats in Atlanta most swimmers will wear the fastest legal suits that they can. Many hope that FINAs suit rules from June 1, will be in force, but winds of change are blowing. The issue isn't settled for masters swimmers yet.

If USMS follows USA Swimming & FINA

Men will wear suits like the:
Speedo FS PRO Jammers ( http://tr.im/fsprojammer)
or
TYR Tracer Light Jammer (http://tr.im/tracerlightjammer)

Women will wear suits like the:
Tyr Tracer Light Short John (http://tr.im/tracerlightshort)
or the
Speedo FS Pro Recordbreaker Kneeskin (http://tr.im/fsprokneeskin)

Right now it's a wait and see situation for USMS swimmers. The issue is settled for USA Swimmers & the above suits are legal for USS meets.

Ande

thewookiee
October 22nd, 2009, 02:48 PM
Hi Graham,

At the 2010 USMS SC Nats in Atlanta most swimmers will wear the fastest legal suits that can. Winds of change are blowing but the issue isn't settled for masters swimmers yet.

If USMS follows USA Swimming & FINA

Men will wear suits like the:
Speedo FS PRO Jammers ( http://tr.im/fsprojammer)
or
TYR Tracer Light Jammer (http://tr.im/tracerlightjammer)

Women will wear suits like the:
Tyr Tracer Light Short John (http://tr.im/tracerlightshort)
or the
Speedo FS Pro Recordbreaker Kneeskin (http://tr.im/fsprokneeskin)

Right now it's a wait and see situation.

Ande

Did anyone notice on the FINA approved list that the Speedo FS Pro jammers were not listed? Wonder why??

ande
October 22nd, 2009, 03:03 PM
Not sure why, possible oversight, here's the

Reference List for Allowable Swimsuits Under USA Swimming Rule 102.9 (10/16/2009) (http://tr.im/listallowablesuitsusa)

Fina's 2010 list (http://www.usms.org/forums/showpost.php?p=196897&postcount=1285)


Did anyone notice on the FINA approved list that the Speedo FS Pro jammers were not listed? Wonder why??

thewookiee
October 22nd, 2009, 03:18 PM
Not sure why, possible oversight, here's the

Reference List for Allowable Swimsuits Under USA Swimming Rule 102.9 (10/16/2009) (http://tr.im/listallowablesuitsusa)

Fina's 2010 list (http://www.usms.org/forums/showpost.php?p=196897&postcount=1285)

According to the speedo site, they are working with fina to gain approvel for the fs pro jammer and kneeskin for women. Yet, the recorder breaker is approved. All the same material.

knelson
October 22nd, 2009, 03:58 PM
I think we are going to be very surprised at the swim times produced around the world come January 1, 2010.

Why do you think anyone will be surprised? Most people know how fast they swam before the suits, so they can use that as their baseline.

The only think surprising (and I wouldn't be too surprised!) would be if people's times don't drop off as much as some seem to think they will.


I won't ever have an asterisk next to my name.

Great. Maybe you can come off your moral high horse sometime, too.

Dolphin 2
October 22nd, 2009, 04:30 PM
People will use whatever it takes so they can be the first one to get to the red light and stop. :bump:
D2

orca1946
October 22nd, 2009, 07:08 PM
I already purchased my new jammers for the upcoming season.

waves101
October 23rd, 2009, 08:31 AM
Half of the FS Pro is actually 2 layers. This could be why FINA has not approved it yet.

gull
October 23rd, 2009, 08:46 AM
I know it would be fun to wear one of those suits and easily pull out a time I have no business going at 38 years old.

Which suit exactly would allow you to do this?

thewookiee
October 23rd, 2009, 09:09 AM
Half of the FS Pro is actually 2 layers. This could be why FINA has not approved it yet.

"FINA has also approved the Speedo® FS Pro recordbreaker, Speedo® Fastskin FSII® and Speedo® Aquablade™ suits. We are seeking further guidance from FINA to gain approval of the Speedo® FS Pro jammer and recordbreaker kneeskin."


But this is what I don't get...if the fs pro recordbreaker is approved, then why would the jammer and kneeskin? Aren't they all made out of the same materials?

swimbody
October 23rd, 2009, 09:56 AM
Hey folks I didn't mean to sound like a pompous ass, really, I had no intention, that's the problem with anonymous boards.

I summarized at the end that I would wear one if they were legal. I also stressed that if I pulled off a 44 or 45 in the 100yd free with the suit on and then went a full second slower without it, I'd be a little difused.

Look at the men's 50m free world record progression. It's quite staggering to see the effect of the new suits.

# Time Name Nationality Date
1 23.86 Jonty Skinner South Africa August 14, 1976
2 23.74 Joe Bottom United States July 3, 1977
3 23.72 Ron Manganiello United States July 29, 1978
4 23.70 Klaus Steinbach West Germany July 23, 1979
5 23.66 Chris Cavanaugh United States February 2, 1980
6 23.12 Chris Cavanaugh United States April 10, 1980
7 22.96 Rowdy Gaines United States April 10, 1980
8 22.83 Bruce Stahl United States April 10, 1980
8= 22.83 Joe Bottom United States August 15, 1980
9 22.71 Joe Bottom United States August 15, 1980
10 22.54 Robin Leamy United States August 15, 1981
11 22.52 Dano Halsall Switzerland July 21, 1985
12 22.40 Tom Jager United States December 6, 1985
13 22.33 Matt Biondi United States June 26, 1986
13 22.33 Matt Biondi United States July 30, 1987
14 22.32 Tom Jager United States August 13, 1987
15 22.23 Tom Jager United States March 25, 1988
[1] 22.18 Peter Williams South Africa April 10, 1988
16 22.14 Matt Biondi United States September 24, 1988
17 22.12 Tom Jager United States August 20, 1989
18 21.98 Tom Jager United States March 24, 1990
19 21.81 Tom Jager United States March 24, 1990
20 21.64 Alexander Popov Russia June 1, 2000
21 21.56 Eamon Sullivan Australia February 17, 2008
22 21.50 Alain Bernard France March 23, 2008
23 21.41 Eamon Sullivan Australia March 27, 2008
24 21.28 Eamon Sullivan Australia March 28, 2008
25 20.94 Frédérick Bousquet France April 26, 2009

Everything is progressing normally until 1990, ten years later Popov finally breaks Jager's record, then nothing until 4 swims in the spring of 2008. I guess FINA said something had to be done to keep the sport interesting. my.02.

Its no wonder swimming was so damn fast and difficult in the late 80s and 90s. The suits give everyone the edge to just simply erase those amazing years where 10-20000m a workout were the norm.

I have no moral high horse, my past dictates that. I shouldn't have put out the asterisk comment, sorry. But seriously if this is considered a mistake, then it should be noted and it will be evident 50 years from now that the suits were the cause of such incredible feats.

Calvin S
October 23rd, 2009, 10:11 AM
according to that list, the WR dropped a greater amount in a 5 month period from feb 2, 1980 to august 15, 1980 (.95 sec) than it did from feb 17, 2008 to april 26, 2009 (.62), a 14 month period. in another 6 months with the suits that were out, we would have seen another leveling of times (i believe).

The Fortress
October 23rd, 2009, 12:02 PM
Its no wonder swimming was so damn fast and difficult in the late 80s and 90s. The suits give everyone the edge to just simply erase those amazing years where 10-20000m a workout were the norm.


Really? That was "amazing"? Did it occur to you that deviating from those "amazing" years with race pace training and less yardage has actually improved sprinting times? And decreased burnout and injury? Suits are fast, yes, but swimmers are just as amazing with the suits as without.

Ahelee Sue Osborn
October 23rd, 2009, 01:01 PM
Totally agree with Fort on this issue of more specialized sprint training showing results... finally - after years of overtraining these athletes.
I'm not denying a role by the tech-suits, but it certainly is not the entire explanation.

If anyone can see it demonstrated it should be masters swimmers. They have busy hectic lives with little time to train. If they're serious about swimming faster they make it specific.
Often they resist racing early on thinking they could never hit times close to those swum without the thousands of meters trained. A light bulb goes off unexpectedly in a timed workout swim...

But they do hit times and some times are even faster than ever!
On very little but very specific training.

I come from the 70s where we trained 15-20,000 as drop-dead sprinters. And as a 80s & 90s triathlete - more is better.
Last year, under strained circumstances, I trained my a** off and incorporated dozens of new found technique improvements.
But oh well, all will be chalked up to "the suit".
I know better.

If anything, regardless of the allowed fabric/rubber, I appreciate that "the suit" holds in the jiggles and the deck strutting is bearable to watch :)

stillwater
October 23rd, 2009, 01:51 PM
QUOTE]But oh well, all will be chalked up to "the suit". [/QUOTE]

Not "all", a lot though.


Last year, under strained circumstances, I trained my a** off and incorporated dozens of new found technique improvements.


I remember doing that in the 70's. I also remember during meets that my mega-yardage gave me an anger to not get beaten in a tight race. It didn't always work, but it was something to rely on when the going got tough.

Besides, as an adult (age only), I think it was pretty cool that I did swim 15,000+ meters a day when I was child.

racinbugs
October 27th, 2009, 07:25 PM
I'm just getting back into this swimming deal after a 20 year "lay off".And have been watching this suit debate because I dont want to buy something I cant use next year. So what I am seeing from the people who are defending these suits are saying. It isnt the suit. Its better training techniques that are producing these faster times. So why would you want to spend $500 on a suit that isnt faster? I'm having a hard time justifing $130 for a pair of Jammers for racing only!

Calvin S
October 29th, 2009, 10:05 AM
I'm just getting back into this swimming deal after a 20 year "lay off".And have been watching this suit debate because I dont want to buy something I cant use next year. So what I am seeing from the people who are defending these suits are saying. It isnt the suit. Its better training techniques that are producing these faster times. So why would you want to spend $500 on a suit that isnt faster? I'm having a hard time justifing $130 for a pair of Jammers for racing only!

some of the speed IS due to the suit, the same way if you were a pair of trunks in practice and then wear a speedo in a meet you will swim faster. for me, its that i don't think its right to stifle technological advances in a sport, that and the fact that FINA is totally imcompetent when it comes to dealing with this issue. their knee-jerk reaction to send swimming back 20 years was (again my opinion) not the way to go about curbing the tech suit "arms race".

knelson
October 29th, 2009, 10:39 AM
So what I am seeing from the people who are defending these suits are saying. It isnt the suit.

No, you're wrong. No one is saying the suit isn't a factor.

racinbugs
November 3rd, 2009, 04:19 PM
So If I beat you in a Jammer and you go out and buy a $500 "tech suit" and you beat me, and I go out and buy a $500 "tech" suit and beat you back. Whats the difference? The only "winner" is the place that sold the suits. I just dont see a reason for being against the ban for that reason alone. Maybe I'm just crazy but, I cant afford that kind of suit. So does that mean I get to get my butt kicked buy guys who can, just because they can afford one? Like I said I'm just getting back into this deal and trying to understand the reasoning. Not trying to ruffle any feathers here.:^)

Chris Stevenson
November 3rd, 2009, 04:55 PM
So If I beat you in a Jammer and you go out and buy a $500 "tech suit" and you beat me, and I go out and buy a $500 "tech" suit and beat you back. Whats the difference? The only "winner" is the place that sold the suits. I just dont see a reason for being against the ban for that reason alone. Maybe I'm just crazy but, I cant afford that kind of suit. So does that mean I get to get my butt kicked buy guys who can, just because they can afford one? Like I said I'm just getting back into this deal and trying to understand the reasoning. Not trying to ruffle any feathers here.:^)

But in the meantime you've both gone faster. Possibly youve equalled or bettered times that you did when much younger. Even though intellectually you know that the suit helped, (a) you're not sure how much and (b) it is exciting to see the faster time, regardless.

Imagine you had gone (say) 51.0 in jammers and 49.5 with the suit. Doesn't the 2nd time make you happier, even though you knew it was tech-aided? Kind of fun to break 50 seconds, isn't it? And maybe you haven't gone that fast since (say) college. Not quite such an old fart anymore, right? And you look cooler (and thinner), too.

At least, that's part of what I think happens. Other reasons I've heard: not having to shave (for men), and being able to swim fairly fast in-season. And some people are just gear-oriented.

racinbugs
November 3rd, 2009, 08:46 PM
I just cant see the money. I'm pretty gear headed myself(build my engines for my cars :blah: )and I can buy a whole lot of razor blades for $500:), or a couple high po. engine parts! Now the thinner thing, you may have somthin' there! I just figure if were racing and I beat you and I keep getting better, the times will be what they'll be. As long as I (or you, or who ever) Keeps beating up on the compitition, Who cares what suit we're in. Well, maybe not old school speedos!:afraid:

knelson
November 3rd, 2009, 11:59 PM
Also don't totally discount peer pressure. If you go to a meet and nearly all the swimmers are wearing full-body suits it's hard not to want one for yourself. I'm sure there are many, many swimmers who uttered "I'll never wear one of those" who later ate their words! And it's not just about fitting in. People swim fast in the suits. Presumably if you're competing you want to swim as fast as possible and the suits allow you to do that.

Dolphin 2
November 4th, 2009, 11:00 AM
Also don't totally discount peer pressure. If you go to a meet and nearly all the swimmers are wearing full-body suits it's hard not to want one for yourself. I'm sure there are many, many swimmers who uttered "I'll never wear one of those" who later ate their words! And it's not just about fitting in. People swim fast in the suits. Presumably if you're competing you want to swim as fast as possible and the suits allow you to do that.

"Presumably if you're competing you want to swim as fast as possible and the suits allow you to do that" ......... and you should also strive to be the first person to get up to the red light and stop. :confused:

D2

knelson
November 4th, 2009, 11:41 AM
and you should also strive to be the first person to get up to the red light and stop. :confused:

There are no stoplights in swimming, Galen.

racinbugs
November 4th, 2009, 02:26 PM
If they take 'em away, everyone will still be swimming just as fast to the stop light to stop.Only difference is I dont have to buy a $500 suit, and the people who have them times will be a little slower now. Thats the way I see it anyway?

mattson
November 4th, 2009, 05:48 PM
There are no stoplights in swimming, Galen.

I could swear I see them, right around 75 yards into my 100 fly...

Mswimming
November 4th, 2009, 06:20 PM
I could swear I see them, right around 75 yards into my 100 fly...

:applaud::applaud::applaud:


I swam a hard 100 fly in practice last week for time and pulled a two breath turn at the 75.

Rykno
November 5th, 2009, 02:02 AM
on the latest Worlds newletter there was a little section about suits.

"FINA Masters Committee has recommended the FINA Bureau that the same rules concerning competition swimsuits shall apply for Masters Swimming as it does for other FINA Swimming Events. In January 2010, the FINA Bureau will take the decision whether or not to follow the recommendation by the FINA Masters Committee."

GGS5T
November 5th, 2009, 03:34 AM
Imagine you had gone (say) 51.0 in jammers and 49.5 with the suit. Doesn't the 2nd time make you happier, even though you knew it was tech-aided? Kind of fun to break 50 seconds, isn't it? And maybe you haven't gone that fast since (say) college. Not quite such an old fart anymore, right? And you look cooler (and thinner), too.


When I was in the 55-59 age group I was swimming 2:37 for 200 fly with a full bodysuit. This was much faster than when I was 20 years old.

Everything you've said, Chris, hits the nail on the head.

US masters swimmers should be very careful that they are not disadvantaged in future. FINA have stipulated that the new rules concerning bodysuits do not apply to masters. Masters swimmers in Europe will have a great advantage over you guys across the pond if you make a stand and apply your own rules for wearing suits in competition.

swimbody
December 20th, 2009, 09:51 AM
OK, OK, OK I broke down and bought some crack.

So I wore a suit in a meters meet December 4-6. Yes, a full length long john suit from Finis. I got it for $60.

I dove in for warm up without a taper. I got a deep tissue massage the day before. I only swim a max of 6-7000 meters a week. I only can swim twice a week because of my demanding job.

I don't know who has had this experience but I haven't swam competitively in about 11 years. The moment I dove in with that suit, I felt like I was shaved and tapered. I recognized the feeling immediately. My results also reflected the aid of this suit. I went nearly as fast as the year I swam my last masters meet sometime in 1998.

I am convinced that the suit is a cheating aid. Period. I'm looking forward to seeing what happens with this. Either we move forward with the suits or we go back to the good ole days of greek pickle hammocks where shaving my hairy body every year will be painful as the chest hair pokes into my shirts as it grows back in the first month after a month. I loved not having to shave my body with that suit on.

That is the big plus for me and one of the reasons I like the suits. I'm partial either way in FINA's decision. I liked going that fast. I have a lot more in my tank too. I feel I can go as fast or faster than I ever have once I get used to the suit. We will see.

Ande, any word from FINA lately?

orca1946
December 20th, 2009, 02:44 PM
And now I read that maybe we will have the same suits for male & female ?

geochuck
December 20th, 2009, 05:51 PM
Will they be waist to knee Jammers.

Betsy
December 21st, 2009, 01:17 PM
ORCA 1946 wrote:
And now I read that maybe we will have the same suits for male & female ?

Where did you read this?

ande
December 21st, 2009, 01:33 PM
this is the last comment from USMS:

U.S. Masters Swimming issued a Statement on Swimsuits on 10/11/09



OK, OK, OK I broke down and bought some crack.

So I wore a suit in a meters meet December 4-6. Yes, a full length long john suit from Finis. I got it for $60.
. . .
Ande, any word from FINA lately?

orca1946
December 22nd, 2009, 05:05 PM
Anything to read from USS swimming ? or masters?

geochuck
December 23rd, 2009, 08:16 AM
The approved suit list grew over the last few days. Three styles of YingFa's and a bunch more YingFa's before the Jan 10th deadline.

Fina is testing these Yingfa suits

Male
9402 approved
9205
9102
Female
937 approved
925 approved
955
912
982
929

swim53
December 26th, 2009, 10:03 AM
And George also said in another post:
APPROVED:
Yingfa 925 female aqablade plus
937 female sharkskin neck to knee