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View Full Version : New LCM breast stroke WR:s age group 35-39...



Superfly
October 25th, 2009, 11:03 AM
...by the russian Vladislav Bragin (Club: Duck's Creek, born 1971)
50 breast LCM 28.47
100 breast LCM 1.02.72
At the Open Nordic Masters Championship in Finland 24-25 October

impressive stuff...
YouTube - Vladislav Bragin WR 28.47 50m br LCM Age 38 Nordic Masters 20091024

YouTube - Vladislav Bragin WR 1.02.72 100m br LCM Age 38 Nordic Masters 20091025

All results from the meet here:
http://www.poseidon.fi/nordicmasters09/en/html/kilpailut/index.shtml

Allen Stark
October 25th, 2009, 11:46 AM
Great swims,thanks for the tapes.Masters must be pretty big in Russia.I remember at the World Masters Games in Portland in 1998 there was a large Russian contingent and their breaststrokes were fast.

BillS
October 26th, 2009, 08:04 PM
Great swims,thanks for the tapes.Masters must be pretty big in Russia.I remember at the World Masters Games in Portland in 1998 there was a large Russian contingent and their breaststrokes were fast.

Allen, what do you make of this guy's stroke? He's got so much undulation going it looked like he was swimming fly when I saw it the first time. Is his drive from the kick? I'd like to hear your analysis and thoughts.

Midas
October 26th, 2009, 08:36 PM
Allen, what do you make of this guy's stroke? He's got so much undulation going it looked like he was swimming fly when I saw it the first time. Is his drive from the kick? I'd like to hear your analysis and thoughts.

I would too, but this looks like textbook modern breaststroke to me (other than almost no glide under water between strokes but he certainly doesn't need that for the 50 and hangs on nicely in the 100). What a swim!

Allen Stark
October 27th, 2009, 04:56 PM
He does have a little more up and down motion than I think is optimal,but not so much as to be a stroke flaw.It seems to work for him.He has a very strong pull which seems to be his big strength.Since he seems pull dominant the lack of glide in the 100 makes sense(except he died at the end and mistimed his touch.Maybe with more glide he would have finished stronger.)Look at the guy next to him in the 50,he got an amazing start.I'd really like underwater shots to do stroke analysis.

JimRude
October 27th, 2009, 05:13 PM
These are frighteningly fast swims. :applaud:

Superfly
October 27th, 2009, 06:06 PM
Look at the guy next to him in the 50,he got an amazing start.I'd really like underwater shots to do stroke analysis.

This is "that guy next to Vladislav" = me :) breaking the WR SCM March this year. This time old school start and not track start

YouTube - Per Svanberg WR 50 br SCM 28.63 Swedish Masters 20090321


Starts and turns are my strengths. I only hope I learn how to swim like a russian before the World Masters Championship next summer :)

Here is an underwater shot start:
YouTube - Per Svanberg start underwater 091010

And here is an underwater swimming shot. Unfortunately I dont have any footage of me underwater when tapered so the swimming in the film is a little bit slow ...and deep.
YouTube - Per Svanberg swim underwater 091010

Really greatful for all tips and advice on how to improve my technique but also what to improve...maybe I havent identified all my mistakes yet! I for sure need it if I want to stand on top of the podium next year...

Best regards
Per

Allen Stark
October 27th, 2009, 07:11 PM
It looks REALLY good.On the start as you begin your kick you are raising your head slightly,not much,but it is slightly out of streamline.On the stroke I have seen some very fast swimmers with a stroke like yours(including you.) There are a couple of differences between your stroke and my mental picture of perfect.First is that I think you could get a little more power if you emphasize the insweep more.That seems the weakest part of your pull.Some coaches teach a strong insweep and some don't so if your coach disagrees consider me wrong.Similarly,while I recommend a relatively flat stroke,yours is flat even by my standards.I think if you kick slightly down more and flex your hips very slightly more(both up and down) you will get a better flow.Play with it and see how it feels.

That Guy
October 27th, 2009, 10:28 PM
He's got so much undulation going it looked like he was swimming fly when I saw it the first time.

His breast times are faster than my fly times. I guess that makes him the Second Commings. Ha. Ha ha. Ha. OK, I admit it, that wasn't very funny. As compensation for my bad joke, I offer a nonsensical barrage of smilies: :banana::bump::bolt::cheerleader::chug::bouncing:

orca1946
October 28th, 2009, 12:24 AM
WOW what a fast kick !!

Superfly
October 28th, 2009, 04:21 AM
Allen,
Thx a lot for your comments! First of all - Since I donīt have a coach you are now the closest to having one :). We are a couple of masters swimmers in the northern part of Stockholm, Sweden trying to coach each other by looking, filming, analyzing and commenting each others strokes and comparing with DVDs of the great ones like Denniston and Hansen, and YouTube clips of Kitajima, Dale Oen, Van Den Burg etc. It may sound silly to compare us mere mortals with these stars, but from a learning perspective it is very interesting to see what they do well and different from us. Not an easy and fast process, but it is better than nothing. Again thanks for your input. I have a couple of questions on your comments:


First is that I think you could get a little more power if you emphasize the insweep more.That seems the weakest part of your pull.Some coaches teach a strong insweep and some don't so if your coach disagrees consider me wrong.

I really like this comment since I feel that my pull is the one thing I am in most control of. I can change it as I want. (in opposite to my kick which is very hard to change I have found). So if I only can get a mental picture on how I should do it instead that would be great. Do you have any example videos or pictures where I can see the difference between my stroke and your suggested change? Do you by "stronger insweep" mean only "faster" or "more powerful/better grip" or maybe both?


Similarly,while I recommend a relatively flat stroke,yours is flat even by my standards.I think if you kick slightly down more and flex your hips very slightly more(both up and down) you will get a better flow.Play with it and see how it feels.

I thought that my kick was already pointing downwards too much, not creating the push in the most ideal direction. You are suggesting to kick downwards even more to lift my hips? Correct? Do you think I am too flat also in the SCM WR race? I am wondering if the underwater footage of me might be a little bit misleading since it is from a heavy workout period and the WR race SCM is fully tapered...

Best regards
Per

Allen Stark
October 28th, 2009, 12:40 PM
Re: insweep,I don't have any good videos,but I suggest you look at videos of Rebecca Soni vs Kitajima or Hansen.Both Kitajima and Hansen are getting a lot of power from the insweep and accelerating through the pull right in to the recovery and getting pressure the whole way.Soni doesn't and is getting all her thrust from the outsweep and pulling back.I believe this is a stroke flaw of hers,but I have heard some say they think it is better.Your pull is not as exaggerated as Soni's,but I think more like Kitajima's is preferable.
As to the kick,I didn't get as good a look in your WR as in the other video so you may be right.I am constantly tinkering with my kick as it seems always either too shallow or too deep.Instead of thinking about the kick try thinking about your hip motion and see if that makes a difference.
My situation is about like yours,mostly self coached,but the are a couple of coaches I trust enough to have look at my stroke every chance I get.(I don't know about there,but here there are a lot of coaches who have no real idea what breaststroke should look like.)

Ahelee Sue Osborn
October 28th, 2009, 02:29 PM
Allen -
Have you analyzed Jessica Hardy's newest breaststroke since she has been back?

I'm not sure if there is any underwater footage of her records so perhaps not... guess I should search the forum before asking :)

JimRude
October 28th, 2009, 03:31 PM
While one can make some very basic generalizations about proper technique from watching elite swimmers in the water, I would be reluctant to say that any one particular stroke "type" is the best.

For example, if you watch some of the very fast women breaststrokers swim, it appears that they are very much leg-driven, and that the arms generate relatively less propulsion.

If you watch Kitajima swim - particularly a 200 - you will think that the key is to have a very long glide phase (watch a video of him next to almost anyone else, and count the number of (fewer) strokes he takes). This while swimming 2:08 for 200m(!).

If you watch others, it will appear that the key is a much higher turnover rate, with little or no glide.

The same holds true for "flatness" of a stroke. The men generally tend to look flatter (though the above videos belie this), and the women look more like they're rearing up and back. This may be because, relatively speaking, they do not generate the same lift from their pull as the men, and therefore need to use their backs more(?).

I think the generalizations that one can apply are:

- timing is everything
- coordination of the kick with the pull is critical
- the initial outsweep of the arms should not be too wide, and the hands should pitch inward and down fairly quickly
- try to eliminate dead spots in the arm motion, and maintain acceleration throughout
- a streamline phase (no matter how brief) is important
- the kick should come relatively late in the stroke cycle, when the arms are almost forward
- the kick should be relatively narrow
- for the kick, the feet should be brought up, as opposed to the knees forward

I had my stroke analyzed in Indy by Dr. G. After taping me, he asked me my times. I told him, and his jaw dropped. I confirmed that these were current times and not lifetime bests. My thoughts were, (1) he's amazed that I can swim this fast with such crap technique :censor: , and (2) I can swim a lot faster if I can successfully incorporate his recommendations. Only time will tell.

Jeff Commings
October 28th, 2009, 04:34 PM
His breast times are faster than my fly times. I guess that makes him the Second Commings. Ha. Ha ha. Ha. OK, I admit it, that wasn't very funny. As compensation for my bad joke, I offer a nonsensical barrage of smilies: :banana::bump::bolt::cheerleader::chug::bouncing:

I seriously appreciate the name dropping, but I am nowhere in his league. He has officially given me a reason to take a break in summer 2010. I cannot go 1:02 in the 100 breast.

And while all of you are oooohing and ahhhhing at his 50 breast swim from above, he did go faster at the World Masters Games in Australia a couple of weeks before that:

Men 35-39
1 Bragin, Vladislav 38 RUS 28.02

Interestingly, he only went a 1:05.62 in the 100 at the same meet.

Congrats to Vladislav. When I swam a 28.51 last May, I had a feeling that wouldn't last long as the world record.

Superfly
October 28th, 2009, 05:30 PM
He has officially given me a reason to take a break in summer 2010.

Jeff, is that a promise?
;)
That would mean one place closer to the podium for me...

Seriously it would be great to see you both in the water in Gothenburg next year. A little bit like the old times... US vs RUS :)

BR
Per

PS Strange about the World Masters Games in Australia time. Vladislav himself said this weekend 28.47 was the world record...hmmm... DS