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cherteck
November 1st, 2009, 11:29 AM
Hi,everyone,i am new to this forum...
My name is CherTeck, just learning swimming less than two years.
I started train competitively three months ago. My 50m personal best is 31s.

I have no coach and train myself in school's pool. I do dry land training three times per week ( medicine ball, stretch cord, ab .roller,crunches, sit up) but i don't go gym . I swim 6 times per week and each session last about 1.5 hour. I think i was born as sprinter as i don't like long distance swimming. Currently, i train freestyle only but i will swim IM during warm up.

I always find the best workout for me but still cannot find the best one.
But i think the folllowing mainset are good
1) 4 x100m, 4 x 75m, 4 x 50m, 4 x25m ( build to 80 % on last lap for 25m pool)
2) 25m 50 75 100 150 200 rec 200 150 100 75 50 25 m ( start from 25m then slowly increase the distance, on the way back, increase the speed)
3) 8 x 75m on 1: 15 , 20 x 50 m ( des 1-4 )
4) Sprinting set:4 x ( 20 fast 30 slow, 30 fast 20 slow, 50m recovery, 50 m all out)
5) Speed kick: 2 x ( 1 x 100,2 x 50, 4 x25) fast kick

But i always use up my energy after speed kick and cannot move on to next main set.For sprinting set, i also die in last round. For normal 50m interval swimming, i tend to swim fast and then must rest 1-2 mins . I am eager to bring my time down...i want to know what's wrong in my stroke.Why can't i swim faster despite i try very hard.

Opps, i got a pair of red zoomer and a parachute. I also use them in my swimming training.I am 21 years old and hope that my 50m freestyle will hit 27s by February next year.

Here are some confusion when i do the sprinting:
1) Should we pull all the way back to hips in sprinting ?
2) Should we catch the water like Popov?YouTube - Popov vs Klim 50m Perth 1998
or just pull back without high elbow?
3) i feel that the water is heavy to hug during the catch,is it the good thing because i feel my turnover will slow down by pulling back that heavy water.
4) I saw Cesar Cielo slapping his arms quickly during sprinting but Popov still maintain very nice stroke. Which is better?

I would like to ask how to race 50m freestyle. Will you go all out hard during first 25m? How about the breathing frequency? i would like to try breathing at 20m and 35m in long course or 20,30,40 .Is it ok?:coffee:

Debugger
May 18th, 2011, 04:45 AM
Hi. Any replies to this post? I have same result for 50m free - 31sec. Though till this point I was training 3 times a week for 1 hour. I work pretty fast with my hands but it looks like I have problem with catch during such tempo.
As far as I know general swimming preparation cycle includes the following basic phases: endurance phase, threshold endurance/overload endurance, sprint and tapering. Making sprint sets during endurance phase can lead to too early peak and then breakdown.
My question is how sprinter should train should he keep same phases? For instance, should sprinter do some sprint sets during endurance phase? Or another situation - the swimmer has poor kick and wants to burst it. Should he wait till the threshold endurance and sprint phases to work on speed kicking or to work on it during endurance phase as well?
Damn, all these books and articles are for middle and long distance swimmers, couldn't find any info about training cycles planning for sprinters. Could anyone show an example of the preparation plan for sprinter?

In my case I have 3 and a half months to prepare to the next event - European Masters Championship in September so I would like to plan preparation for 2 distances 50m Free and 50m Breast. I will increase trainings periodicity to 5-6 times a week and a bit later gonna add gym but I'm not sure what exactly I should do on the water for sprint.

qbrain
May 18th, 2011, 09:30 AM
NOTE: This is all theory. I am not a coach, I have a very short training history and I don't swim fast.

You are focusing on 2 short events at a large meet so you will have plenty of rest and this really simplifies things (kinda).

The 4 part training progression you cited really is a progression. Step one is needed to be successful at step two, etc, etc. This model is designed for swimmers who are going to compete in several events a day, which isn't you, so feel free to throw this out the window. You don't have to be able to warm up, race, cool down, warm up, race, cool down, repeat 3 more times every day.

There are two training focuses, optimal warm up for racing a 50 and racing a 50. What are conditions going to be like in the warm up pool at Champs? Make sure your warm up will work in these conditions, but experiment with it. 500 ez, 1500 ez, 400ez+4x100 strong+4x25 sprint, nothing, 400ez+4x10M sprint kick? How do you know what a good warm up is? Do the warm up then time trial, keep copious notes on how you felt before the warm up, after the warm up, during the race and of course the time. You should see a pattern pointing you toward what works and once you have found it, stop tinkering and stick with it for the rest of the season.

Season progression? Sprint-taper. You need a normal season progression with your focus, there are a few here doing non-traditional training and are successful with it. Sprint train about 2/3rd of your workouts with the remainder being easy, kick and technique.

If you never did a flip turn outside of warm up and cool down, it should be fine, but you need to devote about a quarter of your time to starts and you want to do lots of awesome, forceful, perfect starts each time. Reaction time, launch, entry, kick out, break out... that should be 30-40% of the race by distance.

You should see your times steadily improve on like sets. If they steadily get worse, you need to spend more time on technique and recovery and less time sprinting. Unless you can't handle the monotony, I would come up with 5 or 6 basic workouts that you plan to do for 12 weeks, then taper those exact workouts down to just the meet warm up during a 3 week taper. By repeating the same sets, you will be able to tell from your times alone if you are breaking down and need to insert a recovery day. Unlike most training programs, you will do a lot of starts pre-taper and then taper back the number of starts to match the number of pre-race starts you want to do at the meet.

2trax4me
May 18th, 2011, 09:49 AM
Lot of Spice in those sets. I have always been a distance and mid distance guy but our sprinters did a lot of the same workouts as me until late in the season. IMO you need to simplify a bit and not be scared about throwing some longer stuff in like some 200s and broken 200s in. If your new and still going 31 then your stroke alone will get more efficient and drop your times with more swimming. Yards can be your friend.

warmup
2 main sets
1 kick set
cooldown

You might also want to google some stroke drills and see what you can do to make your stroke better. Also breathe control is going to help you out, see about doing some breathe 3,4,5 50s and 100s.

The 50 is all about the start and turn (SC) so anything you can do there can drop your time a lot. Are you using a dolphin kick?

EDIT: one of my favorite was always the 50 under/over with the over being a sprint. Works your Under water kick, streamline and breathe control all rolled into one.

Jazz Hands
May 18th, 2011, 09:52 AM
1. Go to a weight room at least three times a week and get seriously strong on pull-ups, rows, deadlifts, squats, and presses.

2. Swim all out 25s and 50s with several minutes of rest between them.

__steve__
May 18th, 2011, 10:20 AM
NOTE: ... I don't swim fast.
53 seconds for a 100, I say you do swim fast, just my opinion.



1. Go to a weight room at least three times a week and get seriously strong on pull-ups, rows, deadlifts, squats, and presses.

2. Swim all out 25s and 50s with several minutes of rest between them.
I do all of this, except for deadlifts and too heavy of squats, but I'm very strong for my scrawny 160 lb frame too. I cant get under 14 seconds for 25M (push). Been trying for well over a year. My 3 year career of swimming, thus far, has resulted in a peak in speed achieved at about the 1.5 year point. Since then it seems no matter mow much or little I train, or how pretty I make my form, low 14 s it all I can bust for a 25M push.

qbrain
May 18th, 2011, 12:01 PM
Also breathe control is going to help you out, see about doing some breathe 3,4,5 50s and 100s.

I do not like general breath control sets. A breath control set that will actually help you during your race is doing the same breathing pattern during your long rest sprints that you plan to do during the race.

fmracing
May 18th, 2011, 12:43 PM
you need to devote about a quarter of your time to starts and you want to do lots of awesome, forceful, perfect starts each time. Reaction time, launch, entry, kick out, break out... that should be 30-40% of the race by distance.

This is great advice for 50 sprints. Too many people dismiss their start and start sequence as "good enough" whereas they may be leaving valuable tenths of a second or more on the start. Any time drop gained on the start or underwater is free time found. The same can be said for the turn in a short course race but it sounds like that doesn't apply here.

Breathing for a 50... as little as possible :)

ande
May 18th, 2011, 03:52 PM
hi CherTeck

your 50 fr is 31
no coach you train alone
dry lands 3x per week ( medicine ball, stretch cord, ab .roller,crunches, sit up)
no gym or weights (ADD WEIGHTS!!!)
swim 6x per week for 1.5 hour (you might not need that extra 30 min)
think you're a born sprinter
you are eager to bring your time down

you want to know what's wrong in your stroke
have a friend film you with an IPhone and load the HD Vid on youtube then give us a link

you asked
Why can't i swim faster despite i try very hard.
There's 4 Ways Swimmers Improve


you have red zoomers and a parachute
you're 21 years old
you hope to go 27 in the 50 fr

1) Should you pull all the way back to hips in sprinting ?
YES

2) Should we catch the water like Popov?
YES

3) i feel that the water is heavy to hug during the catch,is it the good thing because i feel my turnover will slow down by pulling back that heavy water.
you want an awesome catch, its good that water feels heavy

4) I saw Cesar Cielo slapping his arms quickly during sprinting but Popov still maintain very nice stroke. Which is better?
both swam very fast, Cesar is a bit faster, figure out what's best for you
Both are excellent kickers

how to race 50m freestyle
Will you go all out hard during first 25m?
go almost all out the whole way

How about the breathing frequency?
most world class male sprinters breath twice in a 50
Once before or in the air as they dive in and
Once after they touch the wall at the end ot their race.
so really 0 during the race.
but if you need a breath during the race consider
1 breath: take it at the far 15 meter mark
2 breaths: 1 at the 25 & 1 with 10 meters to go
When you Breathe
BREATHE IN AS MUCH AIR AS YOU POSSIBLY CAN AND HOLD IT, you want your lungs to be FULL

if you really want to get faster and you're ONLY FOCUSED ON THE 50

DO SHORT FAST STUFF ON PRACTICE WITH LOTS OF REST
mostly fast 15's, 25's & an few fast 50s
swimming freestyle and kicking flutter and SDK
don't get broken down from your swimming training

DO some 50's where you cruise the first 25 or 35 then sprint the last 25 or 15.


GET SUPER STRONG


RACE in a SPEEDY JAMMER



Do: Help my Speed is Horrible
(http://www.usms.org/forums/showthread.php?t=11814) & Help My Flutter Kick is Horrible!


Read & apply a few ideas from Swim Faster Faster

for sprinters, a good SFF Tip that combines many tips is Build a Fortress of Speed & Strength


only train in the The Sprint Free Lane,
The SDK Lane, & the The Taper Lane

Debugger
May 18th, 2011, 04:05 PM
That looks very tempting to do a lot of sprint work BUT doesn't it lead to overtraining?

ande
May 18th, 2011, 05:09 PM
1. Go to a weight room at least three times a week and get seriously strong on pull-ups, rows, deadlifts, squats, and presses.

2. Swim all out 25s and 50s with several minutes of rest between them.

AMEN

Debugger
May 18th, 2011, 05:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazz Hands http://forums.usms.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?p=243262#post243262)
1. Go to a weight room at least three times a week and get seriously strong on pull-ups, rows, deadlifts, squats, and presses.

2. Swim all out 25s and 50s with several minutes of rest between them.

AMEN Should I train this way during entire 3 months? :confused:

The Fortress
May 18th, 2011, 06:02 PM
Should I train this way during entire 3 months? :confused:

I train much the way Jazz and Ande suggest. But I don't typically do hard sprint workouts more than 2 days in a row. You have to add recovery/technique workouts to allow your body to recover from the hard stuff. And your sprints shouldn't be all swim; do fast kicks as well. Use equipment.

I usually do a 3 week taper, dropping weights first.

I never do breath control sets. Those aren't really for sprinters. I do, however, do hypoxic kicking. But that is because I spend a large % of my races doing underwater SDK.

aquageek
May 18th, 2011, 06:11 PM
I never do breath control sets. Those aren't really for sprinters..

Cullen Jones said his breath control was a key factor in him winning the 50 free versus Schneider last week. I'll have to ask around if he or the other sprinters here do breath control.

The Fortress
May 18th, 2011, 06:19 PM
Cullen Jones said his breath control was a key factor in him winning the 50 free versus Schneider last week. I'll have to ask around if he or the other sprinters here do breath control.

I just mean it seems somewhat silly to do those 3-5-7 breathing patterns. Now, practicing sprints using the number of breaths you want to use in the race makes sense.

From the video I saw, it looked like Jones came up with a lead after the start + breakout.

Allen Stark
May 18th, 2011, 07:19 PM
That looks very tempting to do a lot of sprint work BUT doesn't it lead to overtraining?

As Fort said,don't do it every day.Start with once a week for 3 weeks then go to twice a week.Rich Abrahams suggested having one day a week where you go ultra slow for 30 min.to aid recovery.

funkyfish
May 18th, 2011, 08:38 PM
These are a few things that seem to have helped me:

Weightlifting, focusing on overall strength, lactic acid generation for growth hormone production, and explosive movements for force generation. I also like various jumping movements and similar exercises to help with starts and turns. Core work is good as well, crunches, leg lifts, twists, side bends, etc.

Sprint work. Stuff like what was mentioned above, working on breakouts, quick turns, 15s, 25s 50s and 75s. I'll swim with drag (warmups with the legs cut off at the knees) and racing suits. I also concur with breathing how you want to breathe in the race. And the only thing I can't do year-round is work on starts because we don't have blocks where I swim.

Technique refinement/drills. For me I feel this has been crucial. I've seen many beefy dudes "swim," and if you don't have good technique then you'll always get the beat down from someone who does, even if they're heavier, skinnier, taller, shorter, etc. I also use the drills and ez swims as a means of recovering, that way I keep a feel for the water but I'm not wearing myself down.

Kicking. I'll kick with a board (old school), without a board, flutter and dolphin, on my front, sides and back. Recently I've had some mild shoulder problems and had about 2 months of 85% kicking coupled with 15% ez swim/recovery. I think this has improved my kick for my sprint while my shoulder was getting better. I also try to devote about 500yds to practicing streamline dolphin kicking, because I believe this gets me off the start/walls faster than flutter kicking. It's different with different folks, but if it works…

Just a few things that have helped me. Good luck.:banana:

Debugger
May 19th, 2011, 03:54 AM
Ok, that is not what I used to do when I was at school. Most trainings were volume trainings >=5km each but I didn't get any dramatic change in my results. Once my results were on the same place for more then 1 year and that was really annoying. So if something doesn't work there's sense in trying smth new.
Thanks for all advices.