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lefty
November 2nd, 2009, 12:29 PM
I think it is going to end up that anything goes in terms of material, but coverage will be regulated. There is too much ambiguity in the definitions of permeable and textile.

I think it will be jammers for men and short-johns for women....

If I could go back I would have load up on $25 FINIS amphibians...

Dolphin 2
November 2nd, 2009, 12:37 PM
I think it is going to end up that anything goes in terms of material, but coverage will be regulated. There is too much ambiguity in the definitions of permeable and textile.

I think it will be jammers for men and short-johns for women....

If I could go back I would have load up on $25 FINIS amphibians...

After all the mess that tech suits have created, it will be hard to "Get all the worms back in the can" -and the lid sealed shut. But, FINA and USMS is going to have to start someplace.

By the way, I was told by a local fisherman that a spatula works quite well for scraping up worms. :bump:
D2

aquageek
November 2nd, 2009, 03:21 PM
Enough already D2, we all know how you feel on the subject. Saying the same thing over and over and over doesn't really add anything to the coversation.

Calvin S
November 2nd, 2009, 03:23 PM
Enough already D2, we all know how you feel on the subject. Saying the same thing over and over and over doesn't really add anything to the coversation.

sounds an awful lot like Craig Lord

thewookiee
November 2nd, 2009, 03:26 PM
sounds an awful lot like Craig Lord

While Lord is against tech suits, at least he has done things to promote swimming and has tried to back up his arguements with facts. While I disagree with his take on tech suits, he does defend his position with carefully and thoughtfully written articles

Leonard Jansen
November 2nd, 2009, 03:27 PM
A while back, in another thread, I basically said something similar to what you did. Namely, that FINA has only two realistic choices:

1) Either clamp down completely. (Basically, what they have done - at least in today's version of the rules) or
2) Allow almost any material, etc.

The problem with the "regulated technology" middle-ground approach is that there are too many variations of materials and construction for FINA to be able to afford (yes, it's about money) to test every possible current and future permutation. This means that "passive" mechanical advantages such as reduced drag suits are too subtle (i.e. numerous) for exhaustive testing. It is, as you have pointed out, easier to regulate the form-factor mechanical advantages (length of suit, etc) as well as the active mechanical advantages (e.g. fins, gloves, etc).

-LBJ

Dolphin 2
November 2nd, 2009, 04:00 PM
sounds an awful lot like Craig Lord

In case any newcomers to the field have not heard of Craig Lord, he’s a correspondent & journalist in the field of swimming and a strong proponent of "Cleaning Up" the sport -including getting rid of PEDs ........ and tech suits:

http://www.swimnetwork.com/blogs/blog/20090915/what_to_do_with__technical_suit__world_records_-5671.html

http://www.ishof.org/news/craig_lord.htm

http://www.swimmersworld.com/News/view/6448

D2

aquageek
November 2nd, 2009, 04:03 PM
In case you’ve not heard of Craig Lord, he’s a correspondent & journalist in the field of swimming

This stands in direct contrast to D2's qualifications which are listed as follows:

The Fortress
November 2nd, 2009, 04:09 PM
A while back, in another thread, I basically said something similar to what you did. Namely, that FINA has only two realistic choices:

1) Either clamp down completely. (Basically, what they have done - at least in today's version of the rules) or
2) Allow almost any material, etc.

The problem with the "regulated technology" middle-ground approach is that there are too many variations of materials and construction for FINA to be able to afford (yes, it's about money) to test every possible current and future permutation. This means that "passive" mechanical advantages such as reduced drag suits are too subtle (i.e. numerous) for exhaustive testing. It is, as you have pointed out, easier to regulate the form-factor mechanical advantages (length of suit, etc) as well as the active mechanical advantages (e.g. fins, gloves, etc).

-LBJ

This makes good sense.

But the suit manufacturers already have suits in production. B70 just announced it was releasing new suits in Nov. and Speedo has the new LZR Pro. Will these new suits, which make an attempt (I guess) to be "permeable" be history if Lefty's prediction is accurate?

Any predictions on how quickly FINA will issue a ruling/statement after it meets in Jan.?

thewookiee
November 2nd, 2009, 04:13 PM
This stands in direct contrast to D2's qualifications which are listed as follows:

Geek, did you forget to list his credentials? No, I see them right where you put them.

Dolphin 2
November 2nd, 2009, 04:50 PM
This stands in direct contrast to D2's qualifications which are listed as follows:

Hey Aquageek
Looks like the power suddenly went off just as you were typing.

You need to get a UPS for your computer or maybe just some heartburn pills would do the trick. :)

D2

thewookiee
November 2nd, 2009, 04:53 PM
Hey Aquageek
Looks like the power suddenly went off just as you were typing.

Maybe you need to get a UPS for your computer. :)

D2

His power didn't go off. He listed your qualifications, which are correct as he stated.

lefty
November 2nd, 2009, 05:07 PM
This makes good sense.

But the suit manufacturers already have suits in production. B70 just announced it was releasing new suits in Nov. and Speedo has the new LZR Pro. Will these new suits, which make an attempt (I guess) to be "permeable" be history if Lefty's prediction is accurate?

Any predictions on how quickly FINA will issue a ruling/statement after it meets in Jan.?

Interesting to note that Speedo has really made out like a bandit with the timing of the rules implementations. The big crunch for suits last year was feb/march when the LZR was still the "best" suit. They lost out in the summer to better suits, but again based on the timing of the rules change it seems there will be a vacuum in feb/march that Speedo is prepared to fill. I am glad that B70 is prepared.

Leonard Jansen
November 3rd, 2009, 08:12 AM
But the suit manufacturers already have suits in production. B70 just announced it was releasing new suits in Nov. and Speedo has the new LZR Pro. Will these new suits, which make an attempt (I guess) to be "permeable" be history if Lefty's prediction is accurate?

If the suit manufacturers are smart, they should do their level best to convince FINA that there is a "middle" ground - namely the one suggested by Lefty - form factor regulated, but material not. They could do this by trying to meet the FINA rules head on and not try to circumvent them at all, while still throwing in as many material innovations as the rules allow. This lets FINA not lose face and not feel threatened as the regulating body. At the same time, it opens the way for a dialog about why suit innovation is desirable (and non-threatening) and allows the suit companies to continue production of new (and more expensive) suits. For a suit manufacturer, this new technology is critical to revenue growth since there is only so much you can do with lycra and polyester and you can't count on massive growth in the number of participants as your revenue increase mechanism.
That said, B70 is being clever here. They "get" that open water swimming is a relatively untapped market -and a growing market - and that they have expertise from their wetsuits that cross-markets pretty well. Doubly true in that the open water market is much less regulated WRT to suits, both at the FINA level and at all the other levels where FINA has no jurisdiction. If Speedo, Tyr, etc stay solely focused on the fight over pool suits, B70 will stake a large claim to the OW market before the others wake up to what is going on there.
Fascinating, really.

-LBJ

Midas
November 3rd, 2009, 09:02 AM
This makes good sense.

But the suit manufacturers already have suits in production. B70 just announced it was releasing new suits in Nov. and Speedo has the new LZR Pro. Will these new suits, which make an attempt (I guess) to be "permeable" be history if Lefty's prediction is accurate?

Any predictions on how quickly FINA will issue a ruling/statement after it meets in Jan.?

I had not heard that about B70. I was going to buy myself a LZR Pro jammer but now I'll get the B70 instead (as long as it is of comparable quality). B70 has been great to Masters swimming and my biggest regret with respect to favoring a tech suit ban is that it would force this very swimmer-friendly company back out of our market.

SwimStud
November 3rd, 2009, 11:15 AM
Wow, yet another thread about tech suits!
More prolific and annoying the a host of Disney kids who not content with being on TV all the time..now want to be pop stars too...

Jesus I feel old and grumpy today...:badday:

Moderators: Can we please open up a new section on the forums called "Techsuit Debate"...with a click to ignore/close button...some of us are just not fast or interested enough to care--this way I won't even have to see the regurgitation of the same thread over and over...

PS. It's called Association Football.

The Fortress
November 3rd, 2009, 11:30 AM
Wow, yet another thread about tech suits!
More prolific and annoying the a host of Disney kids who not content with being on TV all the time..now want to be pop stars too...

Jesus I feel old and grumpy today...:badday:

Moderators: Can we please open up a new section on the forums called "Techsuit Debate"...with a click to ignore/close button...some of us are just not fast or interested enough to care--this way I won't even have to see the regurgitation of the same thread over and over...

PS. It's called Association Football.

Grumpy old man! We just want to know what suit to wear and have our own preferences.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125721159786824325.html