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__steve__
November 2nd, 2009, 07:56 PM
Got a camera in Guam last week to record some fish and stuff. Now that I'm back home I can put it to better use and try to improve my style. Here are several clips, two from yesterday and one from today.

My left hand crosses into my right side and my right hand goes way outside at mid-stroke. Not sure if this is a balance compensation but I havent been able to correct it yet

2009_1102i0007.flv video by C6C6CH3vo - Photobucket

qbrain
November 2nd, 2009, 08:14 PM
Steve,

You are crossing over on the left, and you are over rotating on your breath. I am not sure which one is causing which, but try the one goggle technique for breathing, and try widening your entry on the left side. You want your mouth to be touching water, one goggle to be completely submerged, but I think your right cheek is feeling air when you breath which is bad. As for the entry, try entering at about 10 o'clock. When you video tape it, it will probably be a good, right in front of the shoulder hand entry. Overcompensate mentally to accomplish what you actually want physically.

Technique critique is not my strong suit, so if someone contradicts me... :blush:

SolarEnergy
November 2nd, 2009, 10:01 PM
Hi mate, thanks for the clips

There are good things with your stroke. I tried to find faulty undisciplined kicks, couldn't find much of these. You use a 6beat that is relatively compact and seems efficient.

My focus went immediately, well on the first clip, on this left hand cross over distraction. To me, the fact that you cross is a distraction more than anything else. On the third clip, you almost corrected it and I am not sure that it had any impact on SR or DPS (therefore no impact on speed).

OK. So where did my focus go. Not that easy to explain. OK. Let me try.

The mission given to each of your arm (that includes the hand) is to be careful in taking a significant catch, then accelerate the hand so that most of the power or torque or strength be put during the second half of the pulling. Right now, that just doesn't seem to happen. Often we look at world class swimmer footage and think that they glide in the front doing nothing. It's often a false impression. They do starting preparing their catch very slowly.

What I mean in using the word *Careful* is that upon entry, you hand HAS to carefully find the ideal catch position, that is well aligned relative to the shoulder, with the elbow slightly bent. Bare in mind that you want to use both the big lats muscles AND your own body weight to pull harder when you're ready to apply force (torque or power -- whatever).

This picture here shows your right hand path upon entry.
First: http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1290/4581967/13217567/377199209.jpg
So far, not that bad although by the look of your it, arm over extended, I'd say you're already late in preparing for the high elbow catch. But it ain't so bad so far.

Now look at this one:
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1290/4581967/13217567/377199144.jpg
Too wide. Instead of being regrouped along with the core body/lats etc (similar to a group of US Marines ready to attack), your right arm ends up isolated far out in the right field. Being alone like this, he can't count on heavy artillery support (power coming from the lats and body rotation). I believe you may be doing this to counter balance your breathing action.

The left hand.

GBrain has mentioned cross over so I won't comment this. First it's worth nothing that your two arms show different flaws. It's normal since you always breathe the same side (or so it seems). On your left arm pulling, you're late on catch. I see 2 dimensions only (one is missing). First a glide in the front then a sudden (way too sudden) acceleration. This is what I call being late on catch. Too long of a glide, no more time to be *Careful* in performing a your catch. The missing dimension is therefore this acceleration that should begin very slowly upon hand entry.

You're a very good swimmer already. This problem is common to a lot of master swimmers, it probably comes from the will to swim best possible distance per stroke. This will often translate into wait time in the front.

1-arm drill with the other arm on the side is amazingly efficient in improving this. If I was you, especially if you've been swimming this way for long, I would book kilos of this. Often, going 100m per arm is not overdoing it. Then gradually your brain will connect little more with the only arm pulling. The absence of contribution from the other arm will FORCE you to find a smarter pulling pattern.

Also, you should consider breathing both sides. I am not talking about bilateral breathing here. Just to breathe sometimes left, sometimes right. One arm drill should be done breathing sometimes same side, sometimes opposite side of the arm that is pulling.

chaos
November 2nd, 2009, 11:08 PM
i concur with g. the left crossover is the most obvious thing i would work to change. here are a couple of ideas:

breathe both sides equally. any pattern that is comfortable but put in equal time on both sides.

enter your hand with fingertips down (not thumb down, as your left hand does). let your wrist and forearm follow your fingers through the hole they punch in the water's surface.

swim holding a golf ball in each hand (it may help to extend your index finger)
focus on your finger following a line parallel to, and outside of the line at the bottom of the pool (shoulder width)

a six beat kick is great, but it has to be in sync with your stroke to be effective. it was hard to tell if your arms and legs are working together.

__steve__
November 3rd, 2009, 10:39 AM
I almost feel like I'm cheating with all the tips (one thing good about the web), thank you for the suggestions qbrain, solar, and chaos!




Plan:
Do at least 100 one-arm drill each side
Do at least 500 of breathing to both sides each day
Concentrate on having one eye under water for breathing to minimize rotation
Find and develop a catch (golf ball drill)
Focus on 10:00 position for left arm so it will catch at least shoulders width
Keep them coming.

okoban
November 3rd, 2009, 01:11 PM
Two things I've noticed:

you do not complete your strokes properly (you do not push at the end of the stroke). I've had the same problem, you can improve it.
your kick is too large and spread. It could be more compact and hard.
Your stroke rate is comparatively high and stroke length is short. Most probably you swim sprint races.

__steve__
November 3rd, 2009, 01:19 PM
This is what I did this morning:
- 25M SDK from wall
- 100M one-arm free (left)
- 100M one-arm free (right)
- 100M bilateral
- 50M bilateral
- 50M roll-over drill (stroke on sixth kick)
- 50M bilateral
- 50M boardless flutter-kick from wall
- 500M with 2-beat (could not keep up bilateral breathing)
- 50M boardless flutter-kick from wall
- 100M with 2-beat
- 25M without kicking, head under, concentating on hand entry position and catch
- 25M bilateral at about 90% effort (about 4 breaths)
- 25M head-up free (kayak) with 4-beat
- 25M SDK

This is a typical distance for my workouts, rarely over 1500M at a time. However, I'm just now starting to include kicking sets so I actually feel like I worked hard today. Nevertheless, I might get another swim in this evening.

Another thing, the one-arm free really stressed my left shoulder supporting muscles. Not only did they burn, but they ached. This shoulder has been through hell (numerous full dislocations) and this might be a clue as to why my there's such unsymmetry to my style. I have learned to naturally protect this shoulder with whatever I do to prevent injury and I am wondering if my stroke style makes perfect sense for this.

If this is the case I will have to cautiously see how much I can correct the stroke without placing the shoulder in a vulnerable position and keep it there. One thing I really fear for my first meet is starting from the block and having it dislocate in the first meter of a 50 then crawling out the pool to shock bystanders from the sight. I would hate to ask the referee if I can start off the wall:cane:. But on the other hand - there's nothing like living on the edge.

Anyhow, I will get some more footage in a week or so to see if I improved ... and maybe edit the footage before posting this time.

qbrain
November 3rd, 2009, 02:17 PM
This shoulder has been through hell (numerous full dislocations) and this might be a clue as to why my there's such unsymmetry to my style. I have learned to naturally protect this shoulder with whatever I do to prevent injury and I am wondering if my stroke style makes perfect sense for this.


Ok, wow. That was important information.

I think you need to find someone local to work with you on your left arm. If it is really a possibility that you can dislocate it from racing, you need to develop a stroke that is going to work for you and I don't think you can do that via the forum.

A few hours over a month or two with someone who understands swimming and how the shoulder joint works should be able to help you. You need to have a discussion that involves lots of demonstration by both parties. Arm waving if you will.

SolarEnergy
November 3rd, 2009, 04:35 PM
Another thing, the one-arm free really stressed my left shoulder supporting muscles. Not only did they burn, but they ached. This shoulder has been through hell (numerous full dislocations) and this might be a clue as to why my there's such unsymmetry to my style. Steve, next time you attempt one-arm drill, could you try slowing down the pace and unloading the pull as much as possible? Slow down as much as possible and report back about any burning/aching sensations.

Ah also, like GBrain mentioned, this is crucial information that you just revealed. Given this new fact, please start by distances that don't exceed 25m at the time per arm. Overloading the distances (durations) would apply only if you don't have a pre-existing condition/weakness.

Thanks - this input is very interesting.

__steve__
November 3rd, 2009, 10:37 PM
Ok, wow. That was important information.

I think you need to find someone local to work with you on your left arm.
It has been more than 5 years since my last dislocation. Weight training, therapy, and caution has been the factor of success. For instance fly and back will be strokes I won't attempt.

One thing good is I can feel when the shoulder is in a vulnerable position and can recover position to safety in time like for instance, in the stroke, therefore allowing safe corrective movement changes. Unfortunately, the block dive wont allow any time to recover the shoulder to a safe position and if it decides to go, it will go out hard. Now I tried a couple dives off the side and everything is good but there would be no room for error. I can always dive with my left hand clutched to my right forearm for support, might not be streamlined but it will allow me to swim meets (haven't attended a meet yet). Perhaps surgery might be an option. But like you said, find someone knowlegable with swimming and shoulder problems.


Steve, next time you attempt one-arm drill, could you try slowing down the pace and unloading the pull as much as possible? Slow down as much as possible and report back about any burning/aching sensations.

Ah also, like GBrain mentioned, this is crucial information that you just revealed. Given this new fact, please start by distances that don't exceed 25m at the time per arm. Overloading the distances (durations) would apply only if you don't have a pre-existing condition/weakness.

Thanks - this input is very interesting.
Sure thing, I will take it easy on the left but continue on for the right. BTW, the right is my non-breather side so that will help learning to breath bilaterally.

I really enjoyed the OAD (one-arm drill:D) and will definately incorperate this activity into my daily routine. It also worked my upper legs termendously. One question, it's causing my front half to porpoise above and below the surface considerably, is this a sign of doing it incorrectly or is it typical? I'll see if unloading will stop this.

Thanks so much.

SolarEnergy
November 4th, 2009, 08:55 AM
It also worked my upper legs termendously. One question, it's causing my front half to porpoise above and below the surface considerably, is this a sign of doing it incorrectly or is it typical? Action/reaction principle applies 100% here.

This is a sign that too much power is being applied - probably downward instead of backward. Believe me Steve, this progressive acceleration of the hand in FreeStyle is easier to understand than to feel/integrate. I am personally very aware of these things but still need to put some thoughts to it, especially when I become tired in a set. This is why OAD comes in so handy. It allows for optimal focus to be put in this crucial learning.

When there's a little too much wait in the front followed by a sudden acceleration, some of this sudden acceleration results into power (or torque whatever) to being applied too early in the pulling - when the hand is still traveling downward instead of backward.

Note that at this early stage, your shoulder is still in a weak/vulnerable position. So the consequences of this flaw can be chronic injuries (in some cases) as well as drop in speed.


I'll see if unloading will stop this. I am encouraging you to 1) unload upon arm entry/catch and 2) learn to apply more power to the second half of your pulling path.

Please for the next couple of weeks, be careful to keep the speed low while working on it. I know it's stressful to feel slow in a lane but by doing so you reduce the risk of irritating your left shoulder and allows for the learning to take place more rapidly.

Gd Luck!

__steve__
November 9th, 2009, 02:14 PM
Relearning stroke from scratch with slow swimming and camera. I see some improvement.
2009_11090018.flv video by C6C6CH3vo - Photobucket

qbrain
November 9th, 2009, 02:42 PM
Wow Steve, that looks a ton better. I just changed my stroke 3 weeks ago, and swimming daily it is just now starting to feel normal again.

I don't know if you are doing this because of your shoulder, but you are entering thumb down. It is usually easier on the shoulder to enter fingertips first. Hold your arm out, then rotate your thumb from up to down, and feel the rotation in the ball of the shoulder. For me, thumb down creates a little pressure in the joint, where thumb neutral or thumb up does not create any pressure.

SolarEnergy
November 9th, 2009, 03:19 PM
Relearning stroke from scratch with slow swimming and camera. I see some improvement. Dear Steve, may I ask you how it feels swimming like this?

mj_mcgrath
November 10th, 2009, 10:09 AM
Steve: See this front-view video of Ian Thorpe:

YouTube- Thorpe Front View Underwater

Notice that his arm in the catch position is always bent at the elbow--never fully extended and that his hands are always under his body. Compare that to your catch position (esp. right side) fully extended and hand outside your body line.

Try experimenting with Thorpe's catch position and your catch position and see for yourself which is more powerful. -mjm

__steve__
November 10th, 2009, 11:47 AM
Try experimenting with Thorpe's catch position and your catch position and see for yourself which is more powerful. -mjmYes, this is one of the things I've been trying to change. It's not as easy easy as it sounds or thorpe makes it look, especially after swimming incorrectly for 1.5 years.



But on the same thorpe reel I noticed Gustavo's technique and his left arm.
http://www.youtube.com/v/XHjJUJvjzDg&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&feature=player_embedded&fs=1"></param><param

Even though it's not clean like thorpe, that boy makes some serious power with his stroke

SolarEnergy
November 10th, 2009, 04:44 PM
Steve, what have you tried to change in your stroke and how does it feel to swim like this?

__steve__
November 10th, 2009, 05:50 PM
Steve, what have you tried to change in your stroke and how does it feel to swim like this?Honestly, the only real things changed are less catch-up movements, and keeping my recovery arm tighter. It feels more natural, does not bother my shoulders, and they're less fatigued. The recent footage to me shows there's still work to do though.

SolarEnergy
November 11th, 2009, 08:59 AM
Honestly, the only real things changed are less catch-up movements, and keeping my recovery arm tighter. It feels more natural, does not bother my shoulders, and they're less fatigued. The recent footage to me shows there's still work to do though. Good because although the rate of execution on the last footage is lower than that of the first few clips, you managed to integrate this crucial element I was referring to as being immediate progressive unloaded catch.

This is wonderful. Now when you accelerate the rate, try to keep your catch progressive and unloaded and increase the acceleration of the hand to pull the water backward in an explosive way and you should normally see some short term improvement in your swim speed. If not report back.

Congratulations

__steve__
November 11th, 2009, 02:15 PM
Stroke started feeling more natural and relaxed, unfortunately it was after recording was done and camera was put away. But everything seems to fit together much better when I wasn't thinking about my movements and just swimming not worrying about the camera. Felt a smooth, but powerful sensation throughout with my hands. Wish I had footage at that moment though, I think I was experiencing what you described as "progressive and unloaded" with smooth acceleration.

About the left hand going too far inside, I think it might be related to two things. First, my arm is not extended all the way. This was a shoulder-related precautionary habit I developed when I first started swimming last year. Seems fine when fully extended but old habits are hard to break. Second, it looks like I fishtail the feet right when this (left) hand enters. Not sure it's cause-effect relationship but it seems to be happening and this is not streamlined.


2009_11110002i.flv video by C6C6CH3vo - Photobucket

It is tough trying to relearn how to swim.

SolarEnergy
November 11th, 2009, 02:19 PM
I don't like this last clip as much as the previous one.

Basically, when I look at your hands, I am happy if you seem to be preparing the catch immediately, and unhappy when I feel that there's a dead spot during which your hand does nothing but wait (to be late).

Would this last clip be filmed prior the previous one?

Here. I took an arbitrary clip of Ian Thorpe performing a 200 (or a 400) I am not sure. Look closely at the underwater angles. Most unaware eyes would mistakenly think that there's a dead spot preceding the catch, but there's none.

1- The hand/arm enters
2- The arm slowly sink along with body rotation
3- The hand immediately starts preparing the catch by pointing fingers down. This is systematic.
4- As soon as the hand finishes her positioning game (pointing fingers down) the arm continues sinking to catch.

No dead spot.

While Thope's fingers point down upon hand entry, yours are pointing slightly up (left hand). I'd venture in assuming that if you were simply pointing fingers down upon left hand entry to prepare for the catch, you'll kill several birds with one stone.

Like I said previously, I am not overly concerned with the fact that your hand crosses the mid line (not at all in fact). I am concerned by the fact that it doesn't do its job. If it was pointing forward (thus not crossing any line), it'd still create a dead spot followed by some emergency disorganized late catch, and I would still be unhappy.

__steve__
November 11th, 2009, 02:40 PM
Yes, I see it now. The clip from several day's ago shows active catching compared to today's clip where my hand just sit's there doing nothing as I slow down. Something just didn't feel right today in front of the camera, and I bet after filming the catch was more active like before because it felt better.

Relapses will happen, thanks for pointing this out!

My goal is to get a feel for the hand sinking upon entry with both arms, shoulder flexing, high elbows all at once naturally. Using the high elbow recovery arm to assist and transfer energy to the catching hand's movement downward. This is my goal but finding it will take some practice

SolarEnergy
November 11th, 2009, 03:53 PM
Work on it Steve, and like I said previously, if you get this done right, your performances should improve, or else there's something wrong.

As a homework, whenever you look at some high level swimmers footage - especially from underwater view - pay attention to what they do with their hands upon entry. It look *still* (very often) but by taking a closer look at the fingers you often see that there's not dead spot.

__steve__
November 12th, 2009, 12:58 PM
Is this any better than yesterday's?

If so then there must be something else I'm doing wrong, lack of EVF maybe? Seems like I spend an enormous amount of effort for lack of speed. At 90% -95% effort 35-38 sec 50M is all I can get.


2009_11120005i.flv video by C6C6CH3vo - Photobucket

tomtopo
November 13th, 2009, 08:51 AM
I watched both videos and noticed two things that could help you. Coaches, tell me what you think. First, your feet look like they're nearly flat (45 degrees at best) and your kick is way too deep (acts like an anchor). I think your time would get better if you increased your ankle flexibility (not easy) or simply didn't kick (quick fix) and tried to keep the legs on the surface. If you want to increase ankle flexibility, pull your foot to stretch front tendon (8 seconds each foot) as often as you care to.

I've heard great coaches yell kick, kick, kick to their swimmers when some of them have terrrible kicks. If your kick negatively effects your time, why do it until it starts becoming a positive to your stroke. Coach T.

__steve__
November 13th, 2009, 09:23 AM
Interestingly, kicking doesn't really help my time too much -lol.

Today I made tighter, and even 4-beat at times, kicking. It felt better. The best feeling occurs with my legs being dragged just under the surface so indeed the kick is a partial speed brake for me.

I also practiced the OAD but without breathing every stroke and this helped. But most of all I spent about an hour last night in the mirror mimmicing EVF and it felt good today. Hopefully the nect clip might show some good improvement

SolarEnergy
November 13th, 2009, 07:10 PM
I agree 100% with your observation CoachT. True on all counts.

I don't know about you but for me, I always recommend to swimmers to only address issues one at the time. Not sure if this real kicking flaw should get #1 priority, possibly if performance is the main goal.

I thought maybe that Steve should make sure about his shoulder health first by fixing the catch, but hey, kicking is a huge element of Freestyle so...

And besides, he seems to have started addressing it already.
---

So Steve really you got something to chew on. Again, I'd venture to state that more than half of Master swimmers not coming from a competitive background suffer from one or both of these flaws. Dead spots resulting from wanting to feel long in the water, and a kick that causes some form of drag due (very often) too poor ankle flexibility or some other restriction to efficiency.

For the kick, you already started to address it that's great. For the catch well look at some footage, pay attention to how slow catch is made. We may sometimes get the impression that the hand is gliding in the front, I know. But the key thing to look at: Look at how the hand sinks pretty much following the body rotation rhythm. And when you think about it. If body rotates bringing down the shoulder, and that the hands still reaches for the front, it's very risky to drop the elbow. And if you wait too long, then the level of pressure you need to apply on catch to catchup for being late on timing relative to body rotation (the clock) is such that it is barely impossible not to drop the elbow.

It takes great concentration to learn to integrate the notion of acceleration from very slow to max power output. Modulate all this appropriately. Slow first is very important. Then sets of 25m buildup on speed from slow to fast.

__steve__
November 21st, 2009, 08:06 PM
Narrowed the kick. Still week and lacking flexibility, and my left leg seems to kick better.

This clip is at easy pace so there's naturally a dead point at the beginning of the catch.

2009_11210001.flv video by C6C6CH3vo - Photobucket

Practiced dive starts of side of pool today. My 25M is 1 second slower with a dive than push:bitching:.

qbrain
November 22nd, 2009, 11:35 AM
Steve,

I like your right arm better than your left on entry. Your right arm is entering in front of your shoulder and your left is entering in front of your head. The first thing you have to do with your left hand is scull out to put it in a more powerful position, then bring it into position to pull, then pull. If you enter further out, you can skip the scull step, and for some people, this wider entry position is easier on the shoulders.

To make a 4" correction, it will probably feel like you are entering at 10 o'clock. I am working on this myself, and have the same problem where one arm is better than the other, and I think to myself "I am swimming at the Y" to remind myself to make my entry wider.

Disregard this if what you are currently doing is for the benefit of your shoulder.

__steve__
November 22nd, 2009, 03:07 PM
Viewing the left hand entry bugs me. If the arm was straigt the hand would be in proper position. This is how I learned so reversing it is tougher than I thought.

SolarEnergy
November 22nd, 2009, 03:31 PM
This clip is at easy pace so there's naturally a dead point at the beginning of the catch. I wouldn't qualify it as being a dead spot, especially if you do feel that something is still happening. It's border line.

Right hand behaves little better. The left one is still cheating just a little bit. But the improvement is such that hey. I can only congratulate you.

Now. If you want this to hold the road for when you want to increase the rate (the speed), try flexing the wrist little earlier. Just little bit earlier.

So instead of what you call the dead spot (at this particular point in the pulling), gently flex the wrist and orient the palm of the hand backward.

I can see that you're doing it, but a bit too late.

** edit **
just gave it another look. Gees is it borderline. But I see no counterproductive dead spot. All you have to do is point fingers down little earlier and then you'll be ready to move to another aspect of your stroke.

If you want to understand better what I mean just pay close attention to the slight difference there is between right and left hand behavior. On right hand entry, you can see your fingers pointing down earlier. On left hand entry, the hand is hesitating a bit. It's as if it wanted to point up toward the surface then down. Just a little hesitation, a left over from your previous flawed technique.

tomtopo
November 22nd, 2009, 04:58 PM
Narrowed the kick. Still week and lacking flexibility, and my left leg seems to kick better.

This clip is at easy pace so there's naturally a dead point at the beginning of the catch.

2009_11210001.flv video by C6C6CH3vo - Photobucket (http://s49.photobucket.com/albums/f264/C6C6CH3vo/?action=view&current=2009_11210001.flv)

Practiced dive starts of side of pool today. My 25M is 1 second slower with a dive than push:bitching:.

The kick is noticeably improved. I did notice something that you might want to look at. Your hand when travels toward the mid-line almost touches your body. The eddy currents around your body as you move forward should be avoided. When you move your hand into moving water you will lose drag (the good kind your hand produces). Anyway, I think you should look into it. What do you guys think? Coach T.

Stevepowell
November 28th, 2009, 02:42 PM
If you don't mind a slightly off topic question: What kind of camera did you use and how did you attach it to the wall?

__steve__
November 28th, 2009, 04:51 PM
If you don't mind a slightly off topic question: What kind of camera did you use and how did you attach it to the wall?No Problem.

FUJIFILM finepix Z33WP, good for 10 feet of H2O pressure for 2 hrs. They are about $167 now and walmart has them. For another $15 I purchased a bending tripod to strap around a 5lb dumbell that I usually place on the pool entrance stairs or bottom.

Other than being waterproof it's a dandy little camera.

Back to the topic, I think I'm finally getting my form correct now. I'll have to check back later next week and see with one final video clip.

__steve__
December 15th, 2009, 02:15 PM
Recorded a 50m following my workout to see areas where fatigue attacks my form. That left hand crosses way over. I did correct the problem not too long ago but the end result was the bad type of pain so I decided to take a less aggressive approach to correction.

I'm not sure I'll be able to fix this problem so I'm asking how bad is it to have one hand crossing in front?

sloppyfromfatigue.flv video by C6C6CH3vo - Photobucket

qbrain
December 15th, 2009, 03:08 PM
I'm not sure I'll be able to fix this problem so I'm asking how bad is it to have one hand crossing in front?


Crossing over causes some people shoulder pain, but your problem is the opposite, so no big deal.

The path you end up taking with your left hand is less powerful compared to your right. But if that works with your shoulder, then that works.

Can you point your finger tips toward the bottom of the pool, or does that bother your shoulder too? You are loosing a good chunk of the front of your stroke, but if you can rotate more, you might be able to catch the water sooner and pull yourself past your left hand. I don't know what it is, but pointing your fingers at the bottom of the pool seems to help get a better grasp on the water.

Your right hand looks much better than your left, but I think you know this.

__steve__
December 15th, 2009, 04:11 PM
I'll try this, thanks!:)

SolarEnergy
December 15th, 2009, 09:56 PM
Which one of your shoulders hurt?

__steve__
December 15th, 2009, 11:34 PM
Left shulder hurt when I corrected by entering the left hand about 4-6" left of center.

SolarEnergy
December 16th, 2009, 02:09 PM
Left shulder hurt when I corrected by entering the left hand about 4-6" left of center. That's odd. Not supposed to be the case. There's something else you might have done that resulted in this pain, or something else has caused the pain in the same time you attempt to fix the cross-over issue.

How are things when you swim slower?
How are things when you focus on that arm alone (OAD)?

qbrain
December 16th, 2009, 03:00 PM
That's odd. Not supposed to be the case. There's something else you might have done that resulted in this pain, or something else has caused the pain in the same time you attempt to fix the cross-over issue.

How are things when you swim slower?
How are things when you focus on that arm alone (OAD)?

SolarEnergy, you are totally forgetting that Steve has had multiple dislocations of that shoulder.

__steve__
December 16th, 2009, 04:48 PM
As qbrain mentioned my left shoulder has been through some trauma.

OAD does not bother it much, but my catch still seems very different than when I do this drill. Maybe I should do more OAD's. As far as swimming slow, if I go any slower I would sink. But honestly, when I slow things down (like less than 0.92 m/sec) I get to a point where swimming doesn't feel right.

Pointing the hand down earlier seemed to help, thanks. I also noticed that maybe my left shoulder should be deeper in the water before the catch with more shoulder rotation.

tomtopo
December 16th, 2009, 04:54 PM
I watched your last video. Your left hand crosses the mid-line of your body and that causes the waggle of your hips. The amount of air behind your hand show me that your entry is either choppy or your hand is flat as you enter. You don't seem very streamlined (little roll and reach). I forgot if you told us your goals (something that will make you happy).

So, tweak your pulling pattern, smooth out your entry (with a thumb and pointer-finger) and reach / roll> I think it'll feel better. Happy Holidays, Coach T.

SolarEnergy
December 16th, 2009, 05:26 PM
SolarEnergy, you are totally forgetting that Steve has had multiple dislocations of that shoulder. Not at all. It's a constraint that needs to be taken into account, but still. I found that a little odd that a comment aimed at fixing an issue would be identify as a probable cause for keeping this pain alive.



OAD does not bother it much, but my catch still seems very different than when I do this drill. Maybe I should do more OAD's. Yes. You should definitely use this drill as a means to perform your rehab. To a large extent, that means that you should try to increase the rate (and the level of pressure) on left arm through this drill first, making sure you got no pain, before attempting to swim fast full stroke.

Here Steve. I updated my clip library after having recorded the full no-arm-to-full-stroke progression. It clearly shows this thing about gradually taking an immediate catch as opposed to maintaining a dead spot.
YouTube- Free Style Drill : 0-Arm-to-Full-Stroke Progression

Then, in an attempt to demonstrate the relation between pure speed and endurance based durations, I created these two clips. Both use the same technique. Immediate but progressive catch with the acceleration of the hand. Most of the power that gets you to move forward should be generated during the second half of the pulling path. First, a little 100m fast but controlled (pace of a 200/400) then a 100m easy warm up pace. This 100m was swam in 1:07, 14 strokes on the 1st 25 then 16 strokes all the way to the end, unloaded catch.

YouTube- 100m Free fast but controled

The purpose of all this was to demonstrate to some triathletes that pure speed development was a good way for increasing basic endurance pace. The relevance for you once again lies in this principle of unloading the catch.
YouTube- Free style early warm up pace

And finally, I don't know if I mentioned it already here on this forum, but I like to build pulling power working backward from final push up to front catch. First things first, this very simple and well known drill here, which I call pulling-pushes can be use after your main set to empty what's left in the tank. It should help you reprogram your pulling in a way that helps you engaging your triceps and lats whilst unloading the deltoids (given that you can unload this catch).

On the 1st 25, I focus more on the final push (triceps) then on the way back, I extend the range to include more lats.

YouTube- Free style Butterfly Pulling Pushes

Conclusion, my feeling is that you're still asking too much from this left shoulder. That's because when you swim fast, you may be still geared in a way to generate too much power too early in the pulling pathway. This last drill should help. Abuse. Push real hard for prolonged periods of time. You have to replace front-quadrant driven pulling by rear-quadrant (so to speak) pulling power.

tomtopo
December 17th, 2009, 10:17 AM
I really enjoyed the drills. Thanks! Coach T.

__steve__
January 13th, 2010, 10:10 AM
edited:afraid:

SolarEnergy
January 13th, 2010, 12:13 PM
so much better I find.

What do your shoulders think about all this?

__steve__
January 13th, 2010, 12:24 PM
Thank You

Shoulders feel great, but I don't do hard workouts.

I can confidently say my shoulders do dislike inproper form though. Probably because of efficiency. My left shoulder is the bad one, but it naturally has more EVF.

SolarEnergy
January 13th, 2010, 03:04 PM
My left shoulder is the bad one, but it naturally has more EVF. Probably because you breathe left.

EVF is easier to achieve on the breathing side.

__steve__
January 13th, 2010, 03:44 PM
OAD 25M times are usually 1-3 seconds faster with my left too. Speaking of OAD, I get more benefit doing the drill with the snorkel.

SolarEnergy
January 14th, 2010, 01:33 PM
OAD 25M times are usually 1-3 seconds faster with my left too. Speaking of OAD, I get more benefit doing the drill with the snorkel. That's an innovation. I see more and more swimmers working with these. It seems to be a very efficient tool indeed.

Out of curiosity, do you know if their use is officially forbidden during a race? Probably I guess...

__steve__
January 14th, 2010, 02:00 PM
Using a better vid server now

slow

YouTube- w1.WMV

kinda fast (I'm not the noodler there:))

YouTube- w2.WMV


I still need some critique. There's got to be some suggestions, I know because I'm still very slowww:).

I notice my entire axis rotates on the same plane to the same extent looking at my feet orientation compared to shoulders. Should I twist at the waist in order to lessen lower (hip) rotation with respect to shoulder?

SolarEnergy
January 16th, 2010, 01:05 PM
I still need some critique. There's got to be some suggestions, I know because I'm still very slowww:). How slow are you?

- Currently, given a set of 10x100 off 2min, what would your times be?
- What's your current 50meter push time?
- What's your current 50meter kick sprint?

Most important of all. When performing a 100m free style fast but controlled, what's the time and stroke count per 25?

As a modest example, here's my 100m fast but controlled (race pace between 200 and 400m basically). It's 14 strokes, then 16/16/17 (bad touch).
YouTube- 100m Free fast but controled

How about yours?

The only little critic I have about your footage at the moment, given the view (Underwater) and the angle (front), you should flex the wrist to point fingers down earlier upon hand entry. For more speed, we'll have to look at the second half of your pulling pathway. This is where most power should be generated. You feedback on stroke count vs speed will tell me a lot about this aspect.


I notice my entire axis rotates on the same plane to the same extent looking at my feet orientation compared to shoulders. Should I twist at the waist in order to lessen lower (hip) rotation with respect to shoulder? My opinion? No.

__steve__
January 16th, 2010, 02:00 PM
How slow are you?

- Currently, given a set of 10x100 off 2min, what would your times be?
- What's your current 50meter push time?
- What's your current 50meter kick sprint?
Even though I haven't really started conditioning sets or workouts yet because most of my time is still spent in the water learning proper form. For a set like that I would revert to sloppyness and get slower. But for 100M set on 2:00, between 1:30 - 1:40, even slower as I tire.

200M is even much slower, about 3:00 minutes and I don't have the courage to post my 500M time. I know I'm doing something wrong because I tire too quickly.

Haven't tested recently so they might be faster
50SCY (pushed) 29.XX
50SCM (pushed) 33.XX

Haven't timed a 50 kick but,
25M kick - 21.13
25Y kick - just under 18



Most important of all. When performing a 100m free style fast but controlled, what's the time and stroke count per 25?
I'll get back to you tomarrow on this one, I'll do one controlled and one at WOT, I'll also kick a 50M, but to tell you the truth I'm good for about 25M of fast and controlled.

Maybe I'm a little impatient and a have poor anerobic threashold foundation, but somethings dragging. There are times however for about 4-5 strokes that everything feels smooth, downhill, easy and fast and this is what I'm trying to find.

qbrain
January 16th, 2010, 02:23 PM
Even though I haven't really started conditioning sets or workouts yet because most of my time is still spent in the water learning proper form.

Your form is good enough that you should spend most of your time conditioning. Once you are conditioned, there won't be a separation between working on conditioning and working on form, you will be able to work on your form all the time during your workout.

Most people spend one set a practice doing drills to work on a flaw in their form at most, and spend the rest of the time working at aerobic or faster pace.

The issues you are seeing with speed are not form related, they are conditioning related. You can be in really good shape and be a slow swimmer, because you body is not in really good shape to swim a lot, but instead to do something else.

Now is the time to start stealing workouts from the workouts forum and get into swimming shape.

SolarEnergy
January 16th, 2010, 02:41 PM
I tend to agree with Mike here.

Based on your expectations over this set of 100 on 2min, I'd expect your stroke count to be 18-19 possible 20 strokes. Let us wait for your confirmation on that.

We'll tailor a viable approach to get you to swim faster.

Now, in the mean time though, it is extremely important that you continue working on unloading this darn catch though. Otherwise, as soon as you'll start improving fitness, this recurring shoulder injury will come back.

Form isn't bad, but in your case this little detail about flexing the wrist earlier is extremely important.

Given your fragility (shoulders), you're going to need to learn to rely on the second half of your pulling effort to generate most of the power.

Oh one more thing. It seems that 0-arm and 1-arm drills have paid. Your kick timing relative to the full stroke is superb. That is a nice and steady 6-beat kick right there.

__steve__
January 16th, 2010, 04:12 PM
Thanks gentlemen!

I'll get back with some fast and controlled 100 stroke count/time data, and if I'm physically able, an all out 100 effort.

In several months I'd like to have an aerobic base that would allow the AT test Mr. Thorton posted last week. I'm just not fit enough now to get an accurate workout from a 2000 time.

Nevertheless, in 14 days I have meet and will be prepping for a 50 and 200. I'm not worried about the 50, I'll hold back on the first, maybe breath about 4 times, then swim for my life on the second split. For the 200, with my lack of experience and conditioning it will have to be a negative split all the way to the last 50.

qbrain
January 16th, 2010, 05:37 PM
Thanks gentlemen!

I'll get back with some fast and controlled 100 stroke count/time data, and if I'm physically able, an all out 100 effort.

In several months I'd like to have an aerobic base that would allow the AT test Mr. Thorton posted last week. I'm just not fit enough now to get an accurate workout from a 2000 time.

Nevertheless, in 14 days I have meet and will be prepping for a 50 and 200. I'm not worried about the 50, I'll hold back on the first, maybe breath about 4 times, then swim for my life on the second split. For the 200, with my lack of experience and conditioning it will have to be a negative split all the way to the last 50.

Jimi must have posted that in another thread, but aerobic can be built in weeks if you have the desire, not months. Speed on the other hand, takes a little longer than whatever you think it will take.

SolarEnergy
January 16th, 2010, 09:24 PM
I'm not worried about the 50, I'll hold back on the first, maybe breath about 4 times, then swim for my life on the second split. Steve, holding back during a 50m is strictly forbidden. No matter how hard you go from start to finish, you may probably have the impression that you could have gone even harder. At least, this is the feeling I get especially with the kicking. You can never kick hard enough in a 50. Unfortunately, energy and focus spent on the pull makes it difficult to deliver full blown kick in the same time. My best effort over 50 kick brings me to the other end under 40sec. But if you'd isolate the kicking done during a 50, not sure I even go under 55.

A 50 is done all out, and it is not very technical too. Just try to save some distance per stroke but even there.

Breathe once or twice during the first 25 (which favors both the dps and the rate), and no more than once during the second one.

+1 on negative split for your 200.

fritznh
January 16th, 2010, 10:28 PM
Thanks gentlemen!

I'll get back with some fast and controlled 100 stroke count/time data, and if I'm physically able, an all out 100 effort.

In several months I'd like to have an aerobic base that would allow the AT test Mr. Thorton posted last week. I'm just not fit enough now to get an accurate workout from a 2000 time.

Nevertheless, in 14 days I have meet and will be prepping for a 50 and 200. I'm not worried about the 50, I'll hold back on the first, maybe breath about 4 times, then swim for my life on the second split. For the 200, with my lack of experience and conditioning it will have to be a negative split all the way to the last 50.

Though it is not that easy to see from the video, it looks like you are collapsing at the end of your stroke. As your arm is passing about your belly button, your elbow comes very close to your body. Have you tried to keep your elbow away from your body for the entire duration of the freestyle pull?

I'd suggest trying to start your pull about four inches or so away from your midline so that your hand lines up with your shoulder during the start of the pull. Go for early vertical forearm, then keep your elbow away from your body as you pull. Keep playing with the catch (towards and away from your centerline) and try to minimize your stroke count at a constant effort level. You can use some of the longer sets to do this efficiency stuff as you are conditioning. I'd guess you'll get as much gain from stroke efficiency as you will from conditioning.

One more thing, though. You've got to go for a 50! Don't hold anything back. Best of luck...

__steve__
January 17th, 2010, 12:32 AM
...your elbow comes very close to your body. Have you tried to keep your elbow away from your body for the entire duration of the freestyle pull?Thanks fritznh, I'll experiment a little now and fully examine this after the meet. I am aware my elbows habitually shift inwards late mid-stroke, if good swimmers don't do this then it's something I definately need to unlearn. Only if it's an easy fix though being so close to an event.


Best of luck...Thank you


Breathe once or twice during the first 25 (which favors both the dps and the rate), and no more than once during the second one.
I'll see what I can get away with. Keep in mind I don't practice with a team and haven't followed any workout plan yet, just my own laid back version - so I'm out of shape and I will need all the O2 I can get. I just realized this today from the help on this thread believe it or not. Was in denial I guess.


Steve, holding back during a 50m is strictly forbidden. I'll see if I can hold on to a full effort for 50, last time I checked a few months back I was 6 seconds slower on the second split of a 50.

__steve__
January 17th, 2010, 04:56 PM
100SCY All out from push
1:06
Felt too spent on last 25, breathing every stroke

100 Y controlled
1:11
17, 17 18, 18 strokes

qbrain
January 18th, 2010, 09:39 AM
100SCY All out from push
1:06
Felt too spent on last 25, breathing every stroke

100 Y controlled
1:11
17, 17 18, 18 strokes

That is fine. You want to be conditioned enough and disciplined enough to take a couple strokes off the turn before breathing and then put your head down for the last couple strokes into the finish.

What is probably more important is for you to be able to breath without slowing down your turn over and without losing grip on the water. You have to breath, and you are going to breath a lot, so get good at it. That will have a much bigger benefit to your speed than taking 1 less breath on the last 25 of a 100.

Except for 50s, the last 25 of a race you will always question yourself why you are doing this, if you are going to die, why does it hurt so much, etc. When you don't you didn't go out hard enough.

50s hurt after the race, you don't have enough time during the race to worry about anything.

SolarEnergy
January 18th, 2010, 12:03 PM
All right Steve, thanks.

Now, what would your time over these 100y fast but controlled be given the following stroke count diet: 15-16-16-17? Please test it and report back (time, feeling and perceived effort).

Based on few inputs gathered so far, 33.x and 1.14scm (1:06scy), here are few predictions:
0200scm = 02:45
0400scm = 06:12
which translates into
0200scy = 02:26
0400scy = 05:31

__steve__
January 18th, 2010, 04:37 PM
Alright I'll get back with a stroke diet result.

Might be Wednesday before I can get some data, I feel like crud today and need more rest.

Question, I assume those predictions are based on years of statistical data. Now, if for some reason I fall slow of the calculated expectation proportional to distance (I am confident this is factual), and furthermore if I end up being faster than a 50 prediction (whatever that may be) should I assume the skew to be related poor anerobic fitness/conditioning? Or should I accept the fact I might be better at sprinting?




I did this workout yesterday, I'm exhausted so it was hard for me but what do you think?

100 warmup
100 99% (test)
100 fast, but in control (test)
10X50yd on 0:60 (38 to 41 seconds)
500 or so worth of drills:
roll-over (stay on side for 6 kicks on each stroke)
head-up free with dolphin kick (snorkel)
8-beat kick free with light strokes
OA
Kicking

100 warmdown

SolarEnergy
January 19th, 2010, 11:03 AM
Looks good!

What is this 50x10 exactly? That's 50 times 10y sprint followed by 15y easy on 60sec?

__steve__
January 19th, 2010, 01:52 PM
I edited it, 50 yds 10 times in 38-41 seconds each 50 and go again every minute.

I feel bad, I better not be getting sick.

__steve__
February 8th, 2010, 10:54 AM
Did the 50 and 200Y free at SC SCY championships on Feb 6. I totally messed up the 50 but the start was kinda funny. Did 28.44. First of all, I had ear plugs in. Then there was a delay for the "on your marks" and my legs were starting to tire in this position. I looked over to see what the hell was going on, then the horn goes off. About one second wasted, ha ha.

My turn was also a disaster. I about caught the guy that did 26.7X going in to the wall but wasn't use to the speed and crunched it real bad:afraid:, getting all sideways underwater and popped up near the lane-line with little momentum. I had to work too hard to get on top of the water.

Anyhow, I'm still very happy with the time. Especially now that I think I can easily beat it.

YouTube- Bungled 50 free start and turn.AVI




I should have pushed harder for the 200 (2:44) but I was too much of a wimp to suffer that long so I negative split the very last 25 yards:D. One swimmer was 87 years old in this heet!

YouTube- 200 free.AVI



My goal is doing 26.XX for 50 Y free and 2:35.XX for 200 Y free next weekend in NC.

__steve__
February 14th, 2010, 11:16 AM
Did 27.74 scy 50f.

My dive needs serious fixing.

I need to learn how to do the whole thing without breathing.

Did fine at the turn, although the bulkhead didn't go to the bottom screwing up my depth preception.

YouTube- 50 F 27.7

rtodd
February 14th, 2010, 11:32 AM
Pretty good Steve.

Real generally, a 27 sec 50 should put you around 2:20 for the 200, so you were way to conservative. A 26 sec 50 should put you around 2:10 and a 25 sec 50 should put you at 2:05 and a 24 sec 50 should put you at 2:00.

You need to work on starts and turns. A 200 SCY is all about getting off the walls out past the flags. Don't breathe on the breakout stroke.

Your stroke count was not bad, your turnover was too slow.

__steve__
February 14th, 2010, 05:36 PM
Thanks,

Here is my 200 from yesterday.

YouTube- 200 F 2 38.AVI

For the 50 I'm going to practice with the goal of doing the first 25, turn, breakout + 1 full stroke cycle hypoxic.

For the 200, Like you said, starts, turns, and breaking out streamlined without a breath. But I'm also out of shape cardiovascularally.

rtodd
February 14th, 2010, 06:40 PM
Better dive. looks nice and controlled, but you still need to pick up the tempo and engage your kick. Don't be afraid to get after it. Try doing a 200 where you die in the last 50. This will give you pacing experience. You should wish you never took up swimming in the last 50. Is this how you felt?

Don't forget to sqeeze your head with your arms in the streamline and don't let your legs and feet seperate as much. There needs to be better connectivity with your upper and lower body through your core. This is why your feet are seperating.

pwolf66
February 14th, 2010, 07:30 PM
Steve,

You seem to be improving with each swim, keep it up!!!!

A couple of points:

1) On your start, you should concentrate of driving your shoulders up and out, it seems that it's more down and out so you enter the water at a very steep angle.
2) For your 200, you obviously have more speed available if you are going 27.7 for the 50, so you need to focus on establishing a faster turn over for your arms. In the 27.7sec 50, your stroke cycle rate (the time you took to take 1 pull with each arm) was 1.21 seconds but in the 200 it was a 2.26 seconds. That is 86% slower. Using myself as a comparison, my stroke cycle rate for a 50 is only slightly faster than yours at about 1.1 seconds per cycle but my cycle rate for a 200 is only about 28% slower than my 50 rate at 1.47 seconds per cycle. Now what does all this mean? It means you need to establish a faster turnover rate immediately in your 200. A 27.7 50 free, assuming sufficient aerobic capacity and swim training, should equate to around a 2:20-2:25 200 free. You can do it, you pull good water with each stroke and you maintain a good body line while you swim, just need to move your arms faster and keep everything else the same.

That Guy
February 14th, 2010, 08:12 PM
You should wish you never took up swimming in the last 50.

So I've been swimming the 200 fly correctly all these years? :toohurt:

__steve__
February 14th, 2010, 08:21 PM
RTODD and PWOLF66 thank you very much for the feedback.


Better starts
Swim harder on the 200
Get arms moving faster
From starts/turns, breakout better
Don't breath in/out of turns
Don't know when my next meet is but I'm planning on doing much better. Attached are the results

SolarEnergy
February 15th, 2010, 01:03 PM
Steve, your improvements are amazing. Form is far better than it's never been.

Q. How are your shoulders doing?

I think I saw little bit of a scissor kick during your 200. Not sure though. Have someone looking into it. Scissor kicking may slow you down (instead of favoring propulsion).

__steve__
February 15th, 2010, 02:21 PM
Form is far better than it's never been.
Hopefully it's never been better



Q. How are your shoulders doing?
Fine. But I have to baby the left shoulder giving a terrible streamline position as seen pulling out from a turn. I'm thinking about seeing a Dr. about this now.




I think I saw little bit of a scissor kick during your 200. Not sure though. Have someone looking into it. Scissor kicking may slow you down (instead of favoring propulsion).You are absolutely correct, I scissored pulling out of each turn because I was 2-beat kicking for 150 yds. I will tighten it up, thanks!

__steve__
June 6th, 2010, 03:33 PM
My hands tend to slap the water, you can hear it in the video (lane 1, near the wall). Does it waste energy?

Here is yesterday's lcm 50fr, it was 30. something. Died near the end

YouTube- DSCF0762.AVI

qbrain
June 6th, 2010, 09:24 PM
My hands tend to slap the water, you can hear it in the video (lane 1, near the wall). Does it waste energy?

Here is yesterday's lcm 50fr, it was 30. something. Died near the end

YouTube- DSCF0762.AVI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScmcdridSRQ)

That is a perfect example that there actually is pacing in a 50.

Considering you could hear your entry over the sounds of the rest of the race, you could probably stand to work on you hand entry.

A hand entry that doesn't bring bubbles with it should be quiet. The preference of thumb first, pinky first or finger tips first is going to be something you need to figure out with your shoulders, but any should work. Sprinting will generate more bubbles than when you work on perfect entry, but once it is a habit, you splash will blend in with the background noise.

__steve__
June 7th, 2010, 01:15 PM
Thanks Q,

The faster swimmers also had better starts. I was moving along good until I took a breath at around 28m. I recall I had no success in getting any air so I had to take 2nd. These two breath attempts put me in dept so I had to take more. By then my arms/torso started locking up, felt like I was being shot with poison darts from the stands lol.

Sprint hand entry and LCM hypoxic work in order.:)

__steve__
June 10th, 2010, 12:11 PM
Hand entry changed a little.


YouTube- 25m hand entry.AVI

Herb
June 13th, 2010, 01:38 PM
Steve, I don't understand technical aspects of swimming so please ignore any advice I might try to offer. But I am right at your speed so I might be able to offer a little perspective.

My times are 28 in the 50 and 2:21 in the 200. This tells me that you are a drop dead sprinter and/or could drop a lot of time in your 200 by just going to work on aerobic sets. In one year I went from being able to swim 10 100s on the 2:15 to being able to do 20 on the 1:45. During that time I dropped one second on my 50, 5 seconds on the 100, and 20 seconds on the 200. I don't know if this your idea of fun though. In retrospect, I would have dropped more time on the 50 by just doing 25s and 50s and hanging around working on technique and turns and starts. It also supports the notion that aerobic conditioning might be a waste of time for sprinters. But the 50 will never be my thing while it could be yours. You look like you have some real talent and potential for improvement.

The other thing I find interesting is that your kick time is about 10 seconds faster than mine per 25. My kick power is absolutely horrible. This leads me to believe that your powerful legs are not helping your speed and might even be hurting it. One thing I can naturally do is drag my legs behind to keep me afloat and streamlined. Do you ever use a pull bouy? I hate them myself. I don't know if that would strain your shoulder.

__steve__
June 14th, 2010, 11:58 AM
OK, I ignored your advice as you advised, but thanks. Yeah, my kick is still too wide, and I seem to be better at shorter events, but I think the being drop-dead part about sprinting is partly due to conditioning (lack of) though.

I need to start focusing on longer races and other strokes, one set I plan to use this summer for the 200 is this:

5 sets of 8x50 on 1:00
Set#1 - o=ez, e=200pace+2sec
Set#2 - o=ez, e=200pace+1sec
Set#3 - o=ez, e=200pace
Set#4 - o=ez, e=200pace -1sec
Set#5 - o=ez, e=200pace -2sec

I also did a full length (25M) of fly for the first time and timed it at about 16 sec, so I might have some potential with the stroke, but I also tried back and br. The back, I couldn't even maintain - it made all sorts of part's ache, and the br was 27 sec. I haven't figured out how to breath with fly yet but I plan to do a length more often to get it down since my body does seem to accept this stroke more naturally.

As for training, right now I seem to respond better with about 1500-2000M/Y a day. Comparing to this spring when I bumped my daily distance up to about 3000 without any effect makes me content with a bit more than 1500 a day.

Skill is another thing, I didn't have the typical swimming background so little things like turns, starts, breakouts, pacing, etc have a drastic impact on my performance, and if I'm not rested or nervous I'll screw it up.

One more area that I need to consider is race preparation, not swimming related but planning and organizing. I haven't seemed to get it right yet. I have done 6 meets total, they were all this year, not one did I manage to sleep more than 4 hours the night prior, except Friday night before Atlanta's first event where I got about 7 hours but I had to drive 5 before the event. Some nights before were just 1-3 hours of sleep. For me, sleep effects my performance considerably no matter what I do.

For the 50 fr LCM, I am certain I can do it sub 29 in the right state of mind and a little luck, I just have to prove it to myself.

__steve__
June 16th, 2010, 12:43 PM
Am I doing fly correctly? Looks a little unusual to me

YouTube- DSCF0779.AVI

That Guy
June 16th, 2010, 02:44 PM
Am I doing fly correctly? Looks a little unusual to me

YouTube- DSCF0779.AVI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OI2abvOhY6s)

Your body seems to remain kind of low in the water. I think you need to kick harder so that your shoulders get higher on recovery. Then you won't be fighting against the surface as much, your arms will reach farther forward with less effort, and you'll find breathing comes easier. It's cliche to post Phelps videos, so here's a Cavic video instead. See how these guys all get their shoulders above the surface on recovery so their arms don't have to fight to get forward.

YouTube- Cavic breaks Phelps record, from Universal Sports

__steve__
June 16th, 2010, 06:49 PM
When comparing to the non-cliche clip (thanks), in addition to the kick, might also be related to too narrow of undulation. I also see inward splashes at late recovery in mine, where the pro's show splash later at entry. It really didn't feel that resistive up front, but if I plan to do this event in a 50, I'll definately have to breath and get higher.

Thanks for the input, the vid was resourceful

LindsayNB
June 16th, 2010, 09:47 PM
It probably shouldn't be your #1 priority (I think undulation probably is) but you should try doing the recovery with your palms facing backwards or backwards and in if the wrist is bent, right now, at least with your right arm the palms are facing down and forward, which will tend to result in your elbow bending.

__steve__
June 17th, 2010, 12:18 PM
Rotated hand slightly, undulated a little more, used a little more force and did get out of water a little more but for some reason my head thrusts fwd/dwn on 2nd beat kick during recovery. My head bounces twice instead of once - strange.

YouTube- DSCF0788.AVI

That Guy
June 17th, 2010, 12:46 PM
Rotated hand slightly, undulated a little more, used a little more force and did get out of water a little more but for some reason my head thrusts fwd/dwn on 2nd beat kick during recovery. My head bounces twice instead of once - strange.

YouTube- DSCF0788.AVI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCaUf63JhVc)

There's definite improvement in that clip!

__steve__
June 8th, 2012, 05:29 PM
HI, I suddenly stopped dropping time in free 2 years ago and have been working hard trying to get back. I'm getting close, but perhaps there's something I'm doing wrong. Also started other strokes since then.

Using 50M LC times, though I don't practice in such a course, it makes for a good comparison:

2010/06/05 - 30.87 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScmcdridSRQ) (nearest lane) Despite armslap and early fatigue, this is still my best swim
2011/06/25 - 31.14 (had zero speed)
2012/06/02 - 30.93 (felt good the first half then made the mistake of looking forward twice)

Here are some clips (the pool is turbid but it should work):

fr rt frt side 0.125.wmv - YouTube (free)
To me, my upper body seems OK but my feet are too deep.

6.6.12 kick.wmv - YouTube (kick)
Seems too mechanical?

fly - YouTube (fly)

6.6.12 bk.wmv - YouTube (back)

6.6.12 fr.bk fast.wmv - YouTube
25 free fast and 25 meters back (out of breath)

Please don't hold back on the critisism

Thank you:)

qbrain
June 10th, 2012, 07:24 AM
(free)
To me, my upper body seems OK but my feet are too deep.


Your feet are deep because of your body position. You can fix your feet by kicking harder or fixing your body position. One takes thought, the other energy.

Elongate your neck, it should be flat. This will leave you looking even more down than you are now and feel wrong. Do it anyway, and don't swim in lanes without marking on the bottom. Your glute cheeks should be at the waters surface (I think butt is censored).

Work on maintaining your body alignment during breathing. You body is a twisted mess on that breath in the video. The problem starts with your head, which causes you back to twist and your hips to drop. You start looking down at the bottom of the pool, do not look forward, do not raise your head, do not do anything with your neck muscles. Let the rotation of your body bring your mouth to the surface initially. Once you have mastered keeping your neck straight so your body position does not fall apart through the breath, just use your neck to end the breath sooner, but until then just let body rotation dictate breath duration.

I think you are rotating late, but it might be the breath is the best cycle on the video, but just fixing your breathing should make a big difference in your swimming.

__steve__
June 10th, 2012, 02:07 PM
Thank you Mike!

A few years ago you helped me make big improvements with my free, I'll try to add to this.

Why Not
June 11th, 2012, 07:19 AM
Jimi must have posted that in another thread, but aerobic can be built in weeks if you have the desire, not months. Speed on the other hand, takes a little longer than whatever you think it will take.

Hmm, interesting. How can aerobic be improved in weeks?

__steve__
June 11th, 2012, 10:19 AM
6.10.12.free7.wmv - YouTube

Got hips up several inches by pushing down forward of center buoyancy. From this angle I notice there’s an excessive loss of glide after each propulsion (like brakes).

When I look at this angle:

crooked.wmv - YouTube

I can see why.
I think I do swim differently when filmed, and my neck and upper back has been stiff lately which both may be factors. But this has got to stop - lol!


Hmm, interesting. How can aerobic be improved in weeks?
Not certain about a few weeks but Mr. Thornton once discussed a workout targeting 200 duration's, which as far as I'm concerned is aerobic:

5 sets of 8x50 on 1:00
Set#1 - o=ez, e=200pace+2sec
Set#2 - o=ez, e=200pace+1sec
Set#3 - o=ez, e=200pace
Set#4 - o=ez, e=200pace -1sec
Set#5 - o=ez, e=200pace -2sec

qbrain
June 11th, 2012, 12:55 PM
Hmm, interesting. How can aerobic be improved in weeks?

Start from an unfit state, train aerobic for 3 weeks consistently, your aerobic capacity will have increased dramatically.

__steve__
June 11th, 2012, 05:54 PM
Fixed most of it. Thanks for the help.

Bilateral:
http://youtu.be/BnQPJ50SJus

BL every 2:
BL R BL - YouTube


BR every 2:
http://youtu.be/DpRSlQm55Rc

Do 25M then breath afterwards:
http://youtu.be/wmLk7Mg2Z04


Will work on it some more and see in about 6 weeks for my next meet:)

ElaineK
June 11th, 2012, 06:33 PM
Will work on it some more and see in about 6 weeks for my next meet:)

Greenville? :D See you there! And, please introduce yourself, so I can put the :) with _steve_. :agree: (Although, I now know what you look like underwater...)

qbrain
June 12th, 2012, 08:57 AM
Fixed most of it. Thanks for the help.

Bilateral:
http://youtu.be/BnQPJ50SJus

BL every 2:
BL R BL - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI2jN2Ft38M)


BR every 2:
http://youtu.be/DpRSlQm55Rc

Do 25M then breath afterwards:
http://youtu.be/wmLk7Mg2Z04


Will work on it some more and see in about 6 weeks for my next meet:)

You breath to the right better than to the left. When racing breath just to the right.

When you are not breathing, your head should be still, looking straight down. If you watch your bilateral video you can see that you head is rotating with your body some on non-breath strokes.

But you are right, that is much better body position. That was quick work.

Notice your right hand drifts outward as you rotate to your left. The entry position looks good, but you don't really want the hand drifting wide, so as you rotate, try letting your body press your arm deeper instead of wider. This will keep you in a tighter streamline while setting your hand position up for an earlier catch (your shoulder and elbow will rise up as you rotate on the right and initiate your pull, but your hand will be left in a lower position allowing an earlier catch).

If your hand is drifting wide to allow for a comfortable catch position because of your shoulder, discard the above advice.

Your turn over is much slower than the initial videos you posted, so I would guess that your stroke has improved but the slow down in turn over was not offset by the increased distance per stroke. Work on technique and speed at the same time by doing 12.5yd sprints with lots of rest early in your workout.

Also related to your turnover, your kick was too big with your foot coming out of the water quiet a bit. Decrease the amplitude of your kick, which should allow for a faster tempo. Work on this faster tempo kick with your faster turnover on the 12.5s.

__steve__
June 12th, 2012, 11:31 PM
You breath to the right better than to the left. When racing breath just to the right. Interesting, I just started breathing right about a year ago. I learned breathing left to accommodate the left shoulder, but left shoulder these days is happier


When you are not breathing, your head should be still, looking straight down. If you watch your bilateral video you can see that you head is rotating with your body some on non-breath strokes. I noticed that too. I was hurting for air in that shot though, didnít rest before it. :blush:

as you rotate, try letting your body press your arm deeper instead of wider. This will keep you in a tighter streamline while setting your hand position up for an earlier catch (your shoulder and elbow will rise up as you rotate on the right and initiate your pull, but your hand will be left in a lower position allowing an earlier catch). Right as this happens, where you mention setting up for catch, I believe I may also have a kick, rotation, and catch timing issue.

If your hand is drifting wide to allow for a comfortable catch position because of your shoulder, discard the above advice. No, itís the other shoulder. Didnít know this was happening until I saw it, must be counterbalancing something off.


Your turn over is much slower than the initial videos you posted, so I would guess that your stroke has improved but the slow down in turn over was not offset by the increased distance per stroke. I'm not a mathmatician, it would be difficult for me to quantify distance of stroke between the clips of those two days. I canít even remember the effort level, but I think the recent one was less effort because I was concentrating on high hips and feet while keeping everything straight. In fact, I find this part the most challenging and very easy to loose. It's the old-dog, new trick dilemma of not swimming as a kid I guess.

Work on technique and speed at the same time by doing 12.5yd sprints with lots of rest early in your workout. Have a SCM set with this theme? One without fins, buoys, and paddles I donít have.


Also related to your turnover, your kick was too big with your foot coming out of the water quiet a bit. Decrease the amplitude of your kick, which should allow for a faster tempo. Work on this faster tempo kick with your faster turnover on the 12.5s. Got it! Time to rock and roll, thanks for the feedback:):)

qbrain
June 13th, 2012, 10:10 AM
I'm not a mathmatician, it would be difficult for me to quantify distance of stroke between the clips of those two days.

I meant the video you posted 2.5 years ago when you thrashed through the water. You made up for your lack of technique with strong turnover.



Have a SCM set with this theme? One without fins, buoys, and paddles I donít have.

8x25 done as 12.5 sprint, 12.5 ez on 1:00

Do that right after warm up. You want your technique to be perfect, but you want to go max effort for those 4-6 strokes. At the end of the set, you should not feel tired like you would if you had sprinted, so you can take less rest (I think Fort does them on 45), but you want to be completely rested for each one. It is also a waste of time to do the set when you are tired already.

As an aside, I find that set frustrating. Since the goal is perfect all out, if you pay attention, you rarely accomplish the goal. Your streamline might be too short causing a deep breakout, or too long resulting in breaking the surface before starting the breakout, or too much rotation, or too little, or not really getting a good hold on the water, or kick amplitude being too big slowing down tempo of kick and turnover and the list goes on.

I got that set (originally) from ehoch, it is not a qbrain original. Fort uses variants frequently in her workouts thread if you want other ideas.