PDA

View Full Version : Help dropping time in the fly



kschwab14
January 30th, 2010, 12:27 PM
Hi everyone. I have been swimming for three months now after starting to swim for the first time in a while.

My best stroke so far (yet the most exausting) is the butterfly. I have lowered my 100 time (SCY) to a 1:07.08 just recently. I am really trying to drop it down lower than a 1:03.50 at my championship meet on tuesday.

My splits have been about 30 38 or 29 39 for the two 50's. Although it seems like a big drop in time i feel like if i can kick more on the second 50 (my legs often drag behind because i forget to kick when im tired) i should be able to pull it off.

Does anyone have any other suggestions on how I can improve my chances?

no200fly
January 31st, 2010, 08:56 AM
Richard Quick used to say that the fastest swimmers were the ones who slowed down the least over the course of the race. Butterfly is especially problematic because when you get tired, your stroke can really fall apart.

Long term, I think the most important thing is to get stronger.

Short term, for your meet on Tuesday, I would try to think about 3 things -

1) stay flat - try to keep flat and long in the water in the last 50 - especially the last 25. Many times when people get tired swimming butterfly, their arms shorten and knees bend and their stroke becomes more vertical. Use your legs to keep your body flat in the last 50.

2) breathe - butterfly would be much easier to swim if you didnít have to breathe, but restricting your breathing in the first 50 will really affect the end of your race. It is important to breathe enough on the first 50 that it does not significantly affect your second 50.

3) splits Ė you do have a fairly large gap between splits, but you will need to go 29 or so to go a 1:03. I always try to work the 3rd 25 and then give whatever is left in the last 25.

Good luck in your race

Jimbosback
January 31st, 2010, 09:07 AM
This close to the meet, I think the best things you can do are relax, eat right, and visualize yourself swimming the best possible 100 fly.

My coaches always put me in 100 fly, even though I didn't really like it. I would think of it as two 50 sprints -- 75% the first and all out the second. It would really hurt to not fall apart in the last 15 yards or so, but I'd usually do OK. YMMV -- find a mentality that works for you.

Good luck.

rtodd
January 31st, 2010, 09:39 AM
no200fly has awesome advice for improving chances in the short term.

It looks like you are having trouble coming home with those splits. Take advantage of that first 25 with a long breakout and as mentioned, play with your breathing. Try two up one down. A one minute effort is not completely anaerobic and there is a significant aerobic energy component. Getting air will not hurt. Of course Phelps breathes evry stroke in fly, but he also does this in the 100free which should be telling you something about needing air in a one minute effort.

I would also say that in the long term, to race fly you need to swim fly. That means doing alot of it in practice to get strong. I always look for opportunities to fly. Sometimes if an interval is easy I modify the set and do the first or last length or two fly. Try building fly volume into your workout.

TexasAggies
January 31st, 2010, 11:23 AM
Well, these guys are right for the most part. There's not much you can change between now and then technique wise to drop 4 seconds. There's a chance that any changes you make will hurt you rather than help. Therefore, the only thing you can do is to change raise strategy.

I don't know if I've seen this in the other responses (I only skimmed them), but the #1 key is to work your walls! Look at your quads, and then look at your biceps/triceps. Which are going to give out first, do you think? Probably your arms. Although you said you tend to "drag your legs", I feel as though if you were focusing on the underwater portion of your race, you wouldn't. Extending your underwaters would be more beneficial than trying to not breathe every stroke.

Also, on your first 50, just cruise, and "ride the wave" so to speak. You will add less time by cruising through the first 50 and going into the turn fresh than you will lose by having that energy to come home, especially if you're working your walls.

Good luck, let us know how it goes!

SolarEnergy
January 31st, 2010, 12:16 PM
Not crazy about your splits.

What's your strategy in these areas?

- Breathing
- Underwater dolphin kick

What's your best time over 25 fly full stroke when you start swimming immediately?

What's your best time over 25 underwater dolphin kick?

Normally, you should aim at keeping a delta of 4-5 sec between the 2 50s. 10second delta may suggest accumulated o2 deficit that goes to high. A lot of fly specialists often try to swim like pros, in extending the underwater dolphin kick portion. In my case for instance, it's a bad deal. I'm faster when I swim than when I kick. On top of that, I manage the o2 deficit much better when I breathe. Therefore extending the UWDK too long for me in a 100m simply doesn't work!

funkyfish
January 31st, 2010, 08:01 PM
You're looking to drop approx. 3.5 seconds on the 100, which averages to just under a second per length. How slow are your turns? Do you glide in and chill, or do you get off the wall as fast as possible? How strong is your push off? How good is your streamline and dolphin kick? The main thing regarding turns at this point is that you want to touch the wall and get off it as fast as you can.

Others have already commented on your splitting. Your 50s should be closer. I'd try and take the 1st 50 out relaxed but strong, envision keeping your stroke flat and forward, not up and down. Break the second 50 into 2 25s, continue the "long and strong" approach on the 3rd 25, then apply as much effort while maintaining form on the last. Your breathing pattern should be consistent throughout, find a pattern that works for you and stick to it. You'll be tempted to not breathe much on the 1st 25-50yds, but force yourself to take breaths, it'll help you on the second half.

Be sure and get enough rest, eat well, and drink lots of fluids. Many athletes wind up training/competing while not hydrated enough, and this affects performance (I'm guilty of this as well, especially in the morning). Keep telling yourself that you're going to have a good swim and you should do well. Good luck.
:banana:

kschwab14
February 1st, 2010, 06:06 PM
Thank you guys for all the great tips. I will definitley let you all know how it goes.

@TexasAggies
Walls are certainly my weak point in the race. I try not to but I almost always cruise the turns because i'm so tired and just concentrating on getting to the finish. I will really try to get a good SDK underwater on my turns. Thanks for the advice.

@SolarEnergy
Yeah the splits aren't very good and it is definitley because of being tired at the end of the race. I haven't been timed in a 25 underwater dolphin but off the wall i do about 13.8 in a 25 fly. As for the long SDK's like I said above I really don't do them a lot but I always try not to breath on the first stroke off the wall so doing less SDK's lets me do that better.

@funkyfish
Like I said I'm going to try and make the turns a lot faster. Also I think the relaxed approach would help me more. I always take the fly out at about 85 to 90% which is probably why i'm getting so drained at the end. I noticed once that i swam the first 50 (fly) of a 200IM in about 30.7 and that was very relaxed. When I did the medley relay my fly split was a 29.1 which frustrated me because i gave so much more effort. So i guess if i let myself take it out easy and breathe on the first 50 i should be better off for the second 50.

Once again thanks for all the great advice guys.

orca1946
February 1st, 2010, 07:34 PM
The walls are your friend !! HARD push off will keep the speed up for the stroke. Good luck.

Typhoons Coach
February 1st, 2010, 10:24 PM
no200fly is spot on for the short term. I would also be concentrating on your arm turnover. A lot of people starting out in fly have a lag time between strokes. Instead, try to get into that catch as soon as humanly possible and start generating thrust from your arms as early as possible.

P.S. the 50 breathing, 50 little breathing is exactly how I plan out my swims and coach my swimmers to swim their 100 fly events.

kschwab14
February 2nd, 2010, 06:30 PM
Once again everyone thanks for all the advice but i'm sorry to report that i didnt make the time i was looking for.

I took out the first 50 in 29 but ended up with a 1:09 so I basically really died on the last 25.

The Fortress
February 2nd, 2010, 06:41 PM
There are lots of great training tips in this thread:

Training for the 100 fly? - U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums


My best advice is really work on your dolphin kicking and SDKs. You may find using fins and/or a monofin will help in this regard and help build strength. I have also found that, when I have long SDKs, I need more air and should breathe more than just every other stroke.

no200fly
February 3rd, 2010, 05:42 PM
Once again everyone thanks for all the advice but i'm sorry to report that i didnt make the time i was looking for.

I took out the first 50 in 29 but ended up with a 1:09 so I basically really died on the last 25.

You did pretty well for just swimming for 90 days. I think you will find that your stroke will get faster with a longer time to prepare.

SolarEnergy
February 4th, 2010, 07:35 AM
@SolarEnergy
Yeah the splits aren't very good and it is definitley because of being tired at the end of the race. I haven't been timed in a 25 underwater dolphin but off the wall i do about 13.8 in a 25 fly. As for the long SDK's like I said above I really don't do them a lot but I always try not to breath on the first stroke off the wall so doing less SDK's lets me do that better.
All right then, breathe on every stroke during your hundred.

Since I absolutely have no idea about how you swim (your technique), I have to stick to fitness. Your splits suggest that there's room for improvement. Make sure you perform enough sets on short intervals. Train for longer distances on a regular basis (150/200).

Start as fast, and of course, during the second 50 bring your mental focus down to the legs and body undulation since you seem to forget this when becoming tired.

Hope this helps.