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taruky
March 12th, 2010, 03:39 PM
Do most of the in-swimming-shape and experienced swimmers among you go all out for a whole 50 yards or is there some pacing? In other words are you going top speed the whole time? The reason I'm asking is that right now I can do 25 yards from a standstill in 13 seconds, but my best 50 yard time from a standstill is 33 seconds. (I'm a horrible diver at this point, but once I get my stroke in order I'll start working on that). Anyhow, is it reasonable for me to shoot for a 26 second 50 by just improving my endurance and flip turns, or is it like comparing 50's and 100's where a 50 time will always be less than half a hundred. Thanks for your thoughts.

I don't do a lot of sprinting, but once in a while give it a few shots just to see where I am. Unfortunately I'm unable to do a master's class because I work in shifts and would miss half of them, so I'm pretty much on my own trying to get better. :badday:

RJCurwen
March 12th, 2010, 03:49 PM
Do most of the in-swimming-shape and experienced swimmers among you go all out for a whole 50 yards or is there some pacing? In other words are you going top speed the whole time? The reason I'm asking is that right now I can do 25 yards from a standstill in 13 seconds, but my best 50 yard time from a standstill is 33 seconds. (I'm a horrible diver at this point, but once I get my stroke in order I'll start working on that). Anyhow, is it reasonable for me to shoot for a 26 second 50 by just improving my endurance and flip turns, or is it like comparing 50's and 100's where a 50 time will always be less than half a hundred. Thanks for your thoughts.

I don't do a lot of sprinting, but once in a while give it a few shots just to see where I am. Unfortunately I'm unable to do a master's class because I work in shifts and would miss half of them, so I'm pretty much on my own trying to get better. :badday:

My guess (fairly wild) is that your turns are costing you time.

But yah. 50 sprints are all out. I'd be surprised if anyone disagrees with that. But your 25 time should be less than half your 50 time, because the turn will always take time, but your dropoff is fairly significant. Work on your turns!! I bet you can get that 50 down below 30 in no time!

taruky
March 12th, 2010, 03:58 PM
Thanks. I don't know how I missed it, but there is another thread that touches a little on that topic. Sorry for some of the redundancy. Yeah, you're right I do need to work on my turns. That's interesting, though, what you said about turns slowing you down. So I guess a good push off a wall doesn't make up for that? The short course world record is 20.30 (Schoeman), the long course record is 20.91 (Cielo). It may be that mortals like ourselves lose some time with flip turns while the pros cut time?

SolarEnergy
March 12th, 2010, 07:54 PM
A 50m should be unpaced hard all out effort. Starting slower would probably end up in an overall slower 50m.

That said, the first 15sec or so of any effort at any sport is kind of magic. It's normal to have more speed during this sweet 15sec than during the remaining of the event.

With dedicated sprint training though, you should improve your 2nd 25.

If you like or know about physiology, the first 10-15sec of an effort is done on ATP/CP (very very rapid muscle fuel) whereas the remaining is done on sugar, which produces lactic acid as a by product which indirectly causes your body to slow down. Sprint training will improve your ability to maintain speed in presence of lactic acid.

If you know nothing about physiology and don't care about it, just don't pay attention of the previous paragraph and just train hard. You will make it to 26s with some time! You may need kick though, so don't neglect training and *testing* your 50kick as well.

taruky
March 12th, 2010, 10:30 PM
A 50m should be unpaced hard all out effort. Starting slower would probably end up in an overall slower 50m.

That said, the first 15sec or so of any effort at any sport is kind of magic. It's normal to have more speed during this sweet 15sec than during the remaining of the event.

With dedicated sprint training though, you should improve your 2nd 25.

If you like or know about physiology, the first 10-15sec of an effort is done on ATP/CP (very very rapid muscle fuel) whereas the remaining is done on sugar, which produces lactic acid as a by product which indirectly causes your body to slow down. Sprint training will improve your ability to maintain speed in presence of lactic acid.

If you know nothing about physiology and don't care about it, just don't pay attention of the previous paragraph and just train hard. You will make it to 26s with some time! You may need kick though, so don't neglect training and *testing* your 50kick as well.

You mean doing sprint kicks with a kickboard? I do know and care a little about physiology, but it's a good reminder, thanks.

RJCurwen
March 13th, 2010, 09:51 AM
Thanks. I don't know how I missed it, but there is another thread that touches a little on that topic. Sorry for some of the redundancy. Yeah, you're right I do need to work on my turns. That's interesting, though, what you said about turns slowing you down. So I guess a good push off a wall doesn't make up for that? The short course world record is 20.30 (Schoeman), the long course record is 20.91 (Cielo). It may be that mortals like ourselves lose some time with flip turns while the pros cut time?


I don't know, I'm not a sprinter! Yah i guess those guys actually push so much off the wall that they gain some speed. Pretty interesting comparison, thanks for bringing that up. I'm sure someone else can explain the difference better than i can.

I know my problem in the second 25 is related to rhythm and kick. Like the above states practicing sprint kicking, i would do it with a board, but also swimming. I had that problem last year in the one 50 free event i did. My second 25 felt all out of rhythm, because i wasn't used to kicking hard while pulling.

SolarEnergy
March 13th, 2010, 10:29 AM
It may be that mortals like ourselves lose some time with flip turns while the pros cut time? Your turn would have to be very very wrong for SC performances to be slower than LC performances.

Even an open turn is faster than no turn at all. All strokes usually benefit from a turn, breast and fly included.

If it can give you some clue. I've seen master newbies having a strong talent for sprinting. This talent is mostly explained by the fact that they are fast twitched. These masters can swim very fast with a perfectible technique. This poor technique means that their swim efficiency is rather limited. Typically, these guys can be bloody fast over 12.5m, fairly fast over 25, but their technique doesn't allow them to maintain that speed over 50m.

for these fast twitched newbies, duration/velocity curve (personal best times) from 25m to 100m could easily look as follow:
025m = 12.2
050m = 32.5
100m = 1:13.something

These times would not make sense for a swimmer having an efficient sprinting technique.

Not saying it's your case since we haven't seen any of your footage yet.

stillwater
March 13th, 2010, 10:37 AM
There is pacing in a 50.

There is pacing in the 100 in track, which lasts 9 seconds. You can't go 100% for 18 seconds, much less 26. That being said, it sure feels like 100% the entire time, but that is an impossible feat.

Lump
March 13th, 2010, 10:45 AM
There is pacing in a 50.

There is pacing in the 100 in track, which lasts 9 seconds. You can't go 100% for 18 seconds, much less 26. That being said, it sure feels like 100% the entire time, but that is an impossible feat.

Semantics.

Yes, a 50 free is ALL OUT, Run what you Brung, 1/4 Mile Drag, lay it all out there, etc. There is no pacing. Some don't even take a breath.

SolarEnergy
March 13th, 2010, 10:54 AM
To further add to this.

I made the mistake of comparing swim with track cycling once, I won't make it twice.

In swimming, a 50m all out begins with a dive. That dive doesn't require that much energy and immediately after the dive, the body flies in the air then enter the water at peak velocity. Most energy that the swimmer expand consists of maintaining as much velocity as possible.

A running or cycling track event begins with a traditional start. A tremendous amount of energy must be expanded there just to reach peak velocity.

That said, I don't believe that a 100m run is paced. Slight slow down may occur near the end but this is a consequence of having emptied the ATP/CP pool. Again, the runner does need to allocate much more of this fuel upon start, compared to the swimmer.

Pacing an event involves keeping some reserve during the first half in order to finish stronger during the second half. I don't believe that runners *save some* during the first 50m. In fact they need to accelerate during the first half. As a result, they probably expand more energy there, not less.

If by some magic, a runner could start his event at full speed after having invested minimal energy expenditure (similar to that a swimmer has to invest on a dive), the splits over 100 would probably be very even.

stillwater
March 13th, 2010, 12:11 PM
100% is not semantics. You (or anybody else for that matter) can't expend 100% for longer than a few or more seconds, much less than 26.

Elite runners save some in the 100. The goal is to maintain speed at the finish, not drop off. To accomplish this they must hold back just a bit. That is why the 100 is an interesting race. It is just a bit longer than a human can hold a 100% effort.

To tell someont to go ALL OUT for a 26 second race isn't good advice. Hence the 13 second first lap coupled with the agonizing 20 second, second lap. That is a pretty tough way to swim a race.

Pace yourself. You'll have a faster time, and it won't be so miserable.

Allen Stark
March 13th, 2010, 01:12 PM
100% is not semantics. You (or anybody else for that matter) can't expend 100% for longer than a few or more seconds, much less than 26.

Elite runners save some in the 100. The goal is to maintain speed at the finish, not drop off. To accomplish this they must hold back just a bit. That is why the 100 is an interesting race. It is just a bit longer than a human can hold a 100% effort.

To tell someont to go ALL OUT for a 26 second race isn't good advice. Hence the 13 second first lap coupled with the agonizing 20 second, second lap. That is a pretty tough way to swim a race.

Pace yourself. You'll have a faster time, and it won't be so miserable.

I totally disagree.As was pointed out in swimming you have the start and in a 25 yd or M pool the turn which is almost free speed.Also,yes you can only go at max speed for 9-15 sec on CP,but ATP is still very efficient except for the lactic acid build up.Because of the physiological changes from sprinting you can increase you lactic acid tolerance so that it is not an issue in a 30-40 sec race.Aerobic metabolism(Krebs cycle) doesn't really become primary in trained athletes until 30-40 sec,hence the fact some swimmers swim the 50 without a breath.If you are well trained for sprinting there is no reason to not go all out on a 50.I don't follow the latest thinking in track,but since CP is good for 9-15 sec I'd be stunned if elite sprinters paced the 100.100s in swimming are definitely paced as they take over 40 sec.That was part of the tech suit issue ,as with the fastest suits swimmers were getting close to making the 100 an anaerobic event.

fritznh
March 13th, 2010, 01:42 PM
100% is not semantics. You (or anybody else for that matter) can't expend 100% for longer than a few or more seconds, much less than 26.

Elite runners save some in the 100. The goal is to maintain speed at the finish, not drop off. To accomplish this they must hold back just a bit. That is why the 100 is an interesting race. It is just a bit longer than a human can hold a 100% effort.

To tell someont to go ALL OUT for a 26 second race isn't good advice. Hence the 13 second first lap coupled with the agonizing 20 second, second lap. That is a pretty tough way to swim a race.

Pace yourself. You'll have a faster time, and it won't be so miserable.

There may be something to that, however I do not pace my 50 free at all. It is 100%: explode from the start, 7 to 8 hard underwater kicks, breath once before the flags, 3 to 4 hard SDKs, hammer it to the far wall as fast as you can go, breath twice. Keep your head down, maintain streamline, core tight, pull and kick for all you're worth. And it is a tough way to swim it, but I haven't found a faster way to get down and back. Just because it is short doesn't mean it should be easy ;-).

orca1946
March 13th, 2010, 03:13 PM
Turns are your friend ! The 2nd fastest part of the swim is your speed off the wall. Try to get someone to help you with those turns. Good luck.

stillwater
March 13th, 2010, 04:12 PM
To me, a good turn is exhausting.

I justify my not taking that extra stroke by telling my self that I'll put my reserved energy into the last lap. Lazy pacing if you will.


Mr. Stark, I think I understand what you are saying, yet, anerobic metabolism is much much (two muches) more explosive than aerobic. I also know that there isn't a quick switch from one to the other, and everyone is different. However my contention is that the 50 free isn't an anerobic event. ALL OUT can't be sustained for that long.

Lump
March 13th, 2010, 04:41 PM
Good luck with "pacing" your 50 free.:blah:

arthur
March 13th, 2010, 05:46 PM
I don't think you should pace a 50. The mechanisms that give the muscles energy change during the race but at each moment you should put in as much effort as possible while maintaining proper form. It looks the the pros don't even really pace 100s:

" The fastest sprinters in the world do not really pace the 100. The first 50 split is within a second of their best 50 time. When you take away the time it takes to turn you are looking at only a couple tenths of a second slower. That means the first 50 is approximately 98% effort so you definitely need endurance to finish off the race." - Jason Lezak

If you look at the 2009 world championships, Cesar Cielo Filho's 100m free 50 split was 22.17 seconds and his 50 free was a bit over a second faster at 21.08.

http://www.omegatiming.com/swimming/racearchives/2009/Roma2009/C73A1_Res1Heat_127_Finals_1_Men_50_Free.pdf

http://www.omegatiming.com/swimming/racearchives/2009/Roma2009/C73A1_Res1Heat_119_Finals_1_Men_100_Free.pdf

stillwater
March 13th, 2010, 06:37 PM
Good luck with "pacing" your 50 free

Thank you. A well thought out plan has served me fine.


The first 50 split is within a second of their best 50 time. When you take away the time it takes to turn you are looking at only a couple tenths of a second slower. That means the first 50 is approximately 98% effort so you definitely need endurance to finish off the race." - Jason Lezak


This is my point. By golly I'm not talking about a 1500. Why not go 100% on the first 50?
Because you are going to meet Mr. Piano.

The same rule applies to the 50.

LindsayNB
March 13th, 2010, 07:19 PM
It would be interesting to compare the number of breaths in the first 50 of the 100 versus the 50 for the elite swimmers.

SolarEnergy
March 13th, 2010, 08:08 PM
However my contention is that the 50 free isn't an anerobic event. ALL OUT can't be sustained for that long. Stillwater, please do not miss this great occasion to update your knowledge of exercise physiology.

The only reason why the human machine slows down during a 50m swim event is because there's a switch from ATP/CP to anaerobic mebabolism. Then once the anaerobic metabolism kicks in, a huge bunch of H+ are being released in the blood altering his PH. Then the body slightly slows down.

The aerobic contribution to a 50m event is next to null. It is absolutely not significant. Of course, like it is always the case when the anaerobic metabolism is operating at max rate for a significant period of time, O2 accumulated deficit goes up. But the rate at which the energy needs to be delivered is just way to high for any of it to be metabolized in presence of oxygen. In other words, 02 accumulated deficit always climb parallel to blood lactate accumulation. That doesn't mean that the effort is aerobic.

A 50m even must be swam as hard as one can from top to finish. If you are not fit enough to perform this, it just means you lack training (although I know nothing about your age, gender, training habits and past record).

Apples to apples. Running performance can not be compared to a swimming performance. These are two very different animals.

stillwater
March 13th, 2010, 08:55 PM
Solar,

I kind of understand your message.The anaerobic to aerobic isn't a switch, and the 50 uses both. However:


Then the body slightly slows down.

As I have said, it's a 50. Slightly is, to some a blink of an eye, or to others a medal.

Delaying the inevitable slow down till the end might be a good thing for a competitor.



A 50m even must be swam as hard as one can from top to finish. If you are not fit enough to perform this, it just means you lack training (although I know nothing about your age, gender, training habits and past record).

Agreed, as must a 1650. I am old, male, lazy, and slower than I used to be (which wasn't too fast).


Apples to apples. Running performance can not be compared to a swimming performance. These are two very different animals.


Sure they can. I am a big proponent of specificity of sport yet the human body still reacts in the same way. Or perhaps you can educate me.

How long can a human perform at 100%? 26 seconds? 18 seconds? Or about five to six seconds?

LindsayNB
March 13th, 2010, 11:22 PM
How long can a human perform at 100%? 26 seconds? 18 seconds? Or about five to six seconds?

You seem to be in danger of confusing various meanings of 100%. It may well be that you perform at a higher level for some period less than the length of the race, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you get any finish time benefit from holding back in the early part of the race.

Perhaps someone will chip in with whether there is some level of fitness or speed below which 100% effort doesn't apply. Perhaps when people get to the age of 95 or their 50 goes over a minute pacing is a good idea? If so, I wonder where the line is drawn.

Allen Stark
March 14th, 2010, 01:39 AM
As long as you are in CP dominated metabolism you can go at maximum effort.This lasts 9-15 sec.After that the most efficient metabolism is ATP/anaerobic.This is depleted in 30-40 sec depending on many factors.There is no subjective difference between all out in CP vs ATP metabolism.In ATP metabolism lactic acid builds up,but if you have been doing the sprint work to develop the buffer systems the effect will be trivial in a race of less than 30 sec.so you should go all out.Also remember in a SCY 25 you are not expending much energy from the time you leave the block until you slow down to swimming speed and the again after you push off on the turn until you again slow to swimming speed which in a 26 sec race it is really sprinting about 11 sec and then sprinting about 13 sec with the rest gliding.

Leonard Jansen
March 14th, 2010, 07:40 AM
If you like or know about physiology, the first 10-15sec of an effort is done on ATP/CP (very very rapid muscle fuel) whereas the remaining is done on sugar, which produces lactic acid as a by product which indirectly causes your body to slow down. Sprint training will improve your ability to maintain speed in presence of lactic acid.


Solar -

I haven't being keeping up on the latest in training theory WRT this issue, but last I heard there was some thought that lactic acid wasn't an inhibiting factor. What is the latest thinking along these lines? By your response I take it that it's back to lactic acid as inhibitor, but perhaps there are some new wrinkles as well.

Thanks,
LBJ

Chris Stevenson
March 14th, 2010, 11:21 AM
I haven't being keeping up on the latest in training theory WRT this issue, but last I heard there was some thought that lactic acid wasn't an inhibiting factor. What is the latest thinking along these lines? By your response I take it that it's back to lactic acid as inhibitor, but perhaps there are some new wrinkles as well.

Maybe there is something newer out there, but LA is not a direct inhibitor according to this:

http://www.drmirkin.com/fitness/lactic_acid.html

My understanding of this is: the old-old thinking was that LA was inherently bad news. The new-old thinking was that LA wasn't bad, but the associated drop in pH was bad, and that "lactate tolerance" was (among other things probably) your body becoming better at buffering the pH drop.

The above link seems to suggest that it is potassium ion accumulation that is the problem.

Anyway, back to the original question...

I certainly sprint a 50 "all-out," or pretty darn close to it. Sometimes it takes a 25 before I feel I get my technique under control and I'm not flailing, but I am not consciously saving up and I don't die at the end. It is a little different in LCM, where the last 5-10m do hurt a little but still there is no conscious pacing involved. Again, maybe the first 1-2 strokes I concentrate a little on getting my technique under control so I'm not just spinning my wheels.

Regardless of whether you think you should hold back a smidge on the first 25 or whatever, I hope everyone can agree on one thing: if you can do a 13 for a 25, then you ought to be able to go faster than 33 for a 50. That's too much of a drop-off. It is hard to tell from the OP whether this disparity is due to poor start/turn technique or lack of sprint/strength training.

__steve__
March 14th, 2010, 12:07 PM
The new-old thinking was that LA wasn't bad, but the associated drop in pH was bad, and that "lactate tolerance" was (among other things probably) your body becoming better at buffering the pH drop.
Is NaHCO3 still used by sprinters? I remember
cycling sprinters used sodium bicarb before an event long time ago.

SolarEnergy
March 14th, 2010, 12:29 PM
How long can a human perform at 100%?

100% RPE (Rate of perceived effort)? or 100% Peak Velocity? or 100% of peak anaerobic capacity?

Here. I think I have an answer for you.

The rate of ATP recycling by the process of anaerobic glycolysis is about half the rate of the ATP-CP system. (...) Estimates are that a person's power output will decrease by approximately 35% after the first 5 sec of exercise when anaerobic glycolysis becomes the principal source of energy for ATP recycling (Hultman and Sjoholm 1986).

If you fail to deliver max power for reaching peak speed very early in the event, you loose those 5-6 seconds. You just spoiled 'em. Because your ATP-CP system will empty itself anyway, and you won't be able to generate this level of torque later into your race.

Your ability to sustain effort anaerobically is called your anaerobic capacity. It is also often called Lactate Tolerance. Human body, when carefully trained can operate at peak anaerobic capacity power for at least 30-40sec.

For any event lasting around this duration, the goal isn't to try to delay fatigue by pacing yourself, but rather to try to delay fatigue by training to increase your anaerobic capacity, or lactate tolerance, whatever.

Finally (once again) the rate at which the various metabolisms need to operate during a 50m makes it impossible for aerobic metabolism to contribute. Its only contribution in my opinion will be to help reducing the O2 Deficit. And that will occur after the event was swam. That is why some swimmers can book a full 50 LCM no breathing. Aerobic metabolism still contributes, but after the event is finished.

About an event lasting between 20 and 30sec: "Training should focus on improving stroking power and the rate of anaerobic metabolism. Improving buffering capacity or the rate of aerobic metabolism is not important". (E.W. Maglischo, 2003).



I haven't being keeping up on the latest in training theory WRT this issue, but last I heard there was some thought that lactic acid wasn't an inhibiting factor. What is the latest thinking along these lines? By your response I take it that it's back to lactic acid as inhibitor, but perhaps there are some new wrinkles as well.
Thanks,
LBJ I think it is wrong to assume that muscle lactic acid is the cause of muscle fatigue.

First, lactic acid which is produced within the muscle cell rapidly gets converted to lactate when it enters the blood stream. Your body actually loves lactate. It finds a lot of useful things to do with it. One major thing is to turn it back to pyruvate where it could (at threshold speed) be metabolized in presence of O2 by entering inside mitochondria. That process takes place at threshold speed though, certainly not at anaerobic capacity speed.

The problem is that parallel to the increase in blood lactate concentration is the increase of hydrogen ions (H+).

Since you make it explicit in your question that you'd like to know what is the latest thinking... I'd say that the highest profile and most competent physiology experts do insist on the parallel changes that occur along with blood lactate accumulation. That still makes lactate monitoring somehow important. Fatigue do occur whilst lactate level is increasing. Very few actually venture in qualifying the role of blood lactate in regard to muscle fatigue.

The whole issue is still under investigation. New theories are being tested. That probably explains the discrepancy that exists between some of these theories.

qbrain
March 24th, 2010, 08:12 PM
I have been thinking about stillwater's comment about pacing.

The windmill stroke takes more energy than regular freestyle. If you can race at 100% for an entire race, then you can do windmill the entire race. To date, I have only seen the windmill reserved for the final 10-15 yards of a race, which would imply reserving the hardest effort until the end.

That Guy
March 24th, 2010, 10:14 PM
I have been thinking about stillwater's comment about pacing.

The windmill stroke takes more energy than regular freestyle. If you can race at 100% for an entire race, then you can do windmill the entire race. To date, I have only seen the windmill reserved for the final 10-15 yards of a race, which would imply reserving the hardest effort until the end.

YouTube- Women's 400 Free-1988 Olympic Games

qbrain
March 25th, 2010, 11:27 AM
Phelp's at Ultraswim windmill, not Janet Evans windmill.

ande
March 29th, 2010, 04:54 PM
Very well conditioned swimmers go pretty close to all out
yet they manage to keep their 25 splits pretty close to each other like the winner had a 0.39 diff,
0.25 to 0.50 is ideal
0.50 to 0.75 is pretty good
0.75 to 1.00 is not so hot

you might also need to multiply the splits proportionate to your speed

0.39/18.93 = X/30

Much of the 50 is about hitting your:
start to breakout: dive, streamline, SDK, breakout &
turn to break out: turn, push off, streamline, SDK & breakout.


look how the final heats of the 2010 mens NCAA's split their 50's

Event 4 Men 50 Yard Freestyle
A - Final ===

1 Schneider, Josh CINC
18.93P r:+0.70 9.27 9.66 0.39 diff

2 Adrian, Nathan CAL
19.02 r:+0.73 9.20 9.82 0.62 diff

3 Brown, Adam AUB
19.03 r:+0.75 9.33 9.70 0.37 diff

4 Feigen, Jimmy TEX
19.08 r:+0.71 9.27 9.81 0.54 diff

5 Louw, Gideon AUB
19.14 r:+0.75 9.39 9.75 0.36 diff

6 Daniels, Joshua CAL
19.41 r:+0.75 9.44 9.97 0.53 diff

7 Dunford, David STAN
19.47 r:+0.78 9.57 9.90 0.33 diff

8 Coville, Alex STAN
19.51 r:+0.70 9.39 10.12 0.73 diff

=== B - Final ===

09 Moore, Graeme CAL
19.29 r:+0.72 9.24 10.05

10 Richards, Micha MINN
19.47 r:+0.66 9.40 10.07

11 Walters, Dave TEX
19.63 r:+0.74 9.55 10.08

12 Krug, Karl AUB
19.64 r:+0.73 9.58 10.06


13 Smith, Jordan ARIZ
19.67 r:+0.69 9.62 10.05

14 Forbes, Alexand UKY
19.76 r:+0.71 9.59 10.17

15 Grobbelaar, War UKY
19.78 r:+0.69 9.67 10.11

16 McGinnis, Eric UKY
19.85 r:+0.63 9.52 10.33





Do most of the in-swimming-shape and experienced swimmers among you go all out for a whole 50 yards or is there some pacing?
In other words are you going top speed the whole time? The reason I'm asking is that right now I can do 25 yards from a standstill in 13 seconds, but my best 50 yard time from a standstill is 33 seconds. (I'm a horrible diver at this point, but once I get my stroke in order I'll start working on that). Anyhow, is it reasonable for me to shoot for a 26 second 50 by just improving my endurance and flip turns, or is it like comparing 50's and 100's where a 50 time will always be less than half a hundred. Thanks for your thoughts.

I don't do a lot of sprinting, but once in a while give it a few shots just to see where I am. Unfortunately I'm unable to do a master's class because I work in shifts and would miss half of them, so I'm pretty much on my own trying to get better. :badday:

stevenwjoe
March 30th, 2010, 02:13 AM
The threshold limit is about 40 secs for a well conditioned athlete to go all out, then the lactic starts to kick in. For most of us that is about 3 lengths in the pool or the first 300 of a 400 meter dash, after that you hit the wall, that is why you have to pace a little in the beginning of both of these events, so you can bring it on home. I am no real expert, but from what I understand even the best conditioned athletes can't break through that 40 sec barrier of all out speed. What they can do is perfect their form to increase speed with less effort as close to lactic threshold as possible without going in debt until the final meters of the race. Stroke form in swimming is where you can really make up the speed, just ask Popov. It always amazes me that the Olympic finalist in swimming generally got there by swimming faster and more efficiently with about 14-20% less wattage than the ones who didn't make the finals. A fifty is well under the threshold and most of us swim fifties all out during speed workouts with little difficulty. But also, maybe what is being implied by some as pacing is perhaps more of a concern with form rather than slapping the water as hard as you can. Moving your arms faster doesn't necessarily equate to a faster 50 free, especially if you are not catching the water. Take a look at Ian Thorpe if you want to see someone who can really combine form and speed, see the link. I don't think he is holding anything back, but he is cycling through a near or perfect stroke, at least for his physique.

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/mens100m-freestlye-semifinal-ian-thorpe-cg-trials-2006/170213568

stevenwjoe
March 30th, 2010, 02:19 AM
Sorry, I think that link show Ian in the 100, but still very good video showing his form. Here is another one of the many out there.

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/ian-thorpe-start/3233582990

Karl_S
March 31st, 2010, 07:44 PM
Do most of the in-swimming-shape and experienced swimmers among you go all out for a whole 50 yards or is there some pacing? In other words are you going top speed the whole time? [] :badday:

I saw this:

"Yesterday I spoke with Shaun Jordan (Shaun swam for the US in the '88 and '92 Olympics.) we were talking about the 50 free and he was telling me how Matt Biondi and Tom Jager taught him to build his 50 meter free race, that he needed to relax on the first 10 strokes and build into the wall. Rather than going all out from the start. This allowed him to swim much faster on the second 25."

in Ande's SFF tip#24
U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums - View Single Post - Ande's Swimming Tips: Swimming Faster Faster

__steve__
March 31st, 2010, 08:46 PM
I still have 3 seconds to shed before I am worthy of sprinting advice, but on the topic of relaxation, if I am relaxed early in the first 25 it's easier to go without breathing all the way to several strokes after the turn. Breathing probably hurts my time about 0.4 sec/breath so I go without as much as possible.

Would love to be able to sprint the entire 50 without breathing:). I did a moderate paced 50 once without, but it made my teeth and something else I wont disclose hurt near the finish.

stillwater
April 1st, 2010, 10:30 AM
"Yesterday I spoke with Shaun Jordan (Shaun swam for the US in the '88 and '92 Olympics.) we were talking about the 50 free and he was telling me how Matt Biondi and Tom Jager taught him to build his 50 meter free race, that he needed to relax on the first 10 strokes and build into the wall. Rather than going all out from the start. This allowed him to swim much faster on the second 25."


I wonder how many strokes those chaps take in a 50yd. free.? 22 would be my guess.

__steve__
April 1st, 2010, 01:02 PM
I wonder how many strokes those chaps take in a 50yd. free.? 22 would be my guess.
I was lucky enough to film Nick Bernelli close up a couple months back at a meet. I use the footage to study what it takes for chaps like that to do low 19's in a 50 SCY. It took him 12 strokes (including 1st stroke upon breakout) to the bulkhead, and 14 on the way back, and didn't breath once. He got a little off center from the turn which probably hurt him a 1/10th sec, but 24 strokes got him a 19.23

He was very psyched and obnoxious several minutes or more prior to the event but as soon as he approached the block he was very calm and relaxed.

I am curious if any sprinters do 50 SCM or LCM without breathing.

stevenwjoe
April 1st, 2010, 01:16 PM
That is interesting, to build speed over the first 10 meters makes a lot of sense. I have also noticed that if I start out by gradually accelerating I reach a much higher speed and if done efficiently, I can actually attain as fast of a time in the 25 with less energy. I think it has to do with gradually slipping into the friction of the water and turning the tide to flow with you through gradual acceleration as your stroke also comes into streamline and harmonizes with the water. As we know, water is a much thicker medium than air making the environment more interactive, so you really have to make an attempt to feel the water and become one with it. In other words, you are gathering the chi of the water into your own, lol. Or just go with the flow.

A good drill is to start off from the wall very slow and gradually build throughout a twenty five. The key is to see how steady you can gradually build that acceleration, as in a very refined crescendo of speed.

Stevepowell
April 1st, 2010, 01:16 PM
I was lucky enough to film Nick Bernelli close up a couple months back at a meet.


Steve, have you posted the footage anywhere?

LindsayNB
April 1st, 2010, 03:43 PM
Do you really accelerate or do you just pick up effort as you lose your dive/wall speed?

__steve__
April 1st, 2010, 08:25 PM
Do you really accelerate or do you just pick up effort as you lose your dive/wall speed?Accelerating means you had a terrible breakout or missed the wall on the turn



Steve, have you posted the footage anywhere?I posted it right here


YouTube- 19.23.WMV

qbrain
April 1st, 2010, 08:37 PM
I am curious if any sprinters do 50 SCM or LCM without breathing.

Yes and I think 50 LCM would be the easier of the two to do without breathing, considering the turn requires and exhale, while not doing a turn allows the swimmer to decide when to exhale.

I don't have enough experience with LCM to actually say which is easier.

stillwater
April 1st, 2010, 10:28 PM
My guess is that most people that break 22 seconds in the 50 yard free don't gulp in mother air in the first 25. On the back half, well why breathe? You only have 11 seconds left.

Swimming a 26 second 50 is a whole new ball of wax.

__steve__
April 2nd, 2010, 10:30 AM
Swimming a 26 second 50 is a whole new ball of wax.No kidding.

At 22 seconds I start to really need air so I take a breath.
By 24 seconds I need another because the first was mostly water so I take a long one (video shows I pause my stroke).
Few seconds later I finally hit the hall.

BillS
April 2nd, 2010, 11:59 AM
I posted it right here


YouTube- 19.23.WMV (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-kEAQ5RudI)

Wow, what a start...he got an incredible jump on the gun. The guys to his left (on the first 25, to his right on the back half) look to be no slouches, maybe 22ish? And yet the race was over at the breakout.

Thanks for posting. Gives me a lot to think about for my start. I like how he lines his back foot up directly behind the front, think I will give that a try.

aquageek
April 2nd, 2010, 12:13 PM
I was at this meet. A lot of the Team Elite guys from our club participated. It was a USMS meet and they are awesome swimmers and super nice as well. They all hung out with us and were very encouraging.

__steve__
April 2nd, 2010, 02:56 PM
They also whistle very loudly

__steve__
April 7th, 2010, 03:48 PM
Found out the 19.23 above by N Brunelli was a USMS 25-29 record, until the next day when Bousquet went 18.67.