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ande
March 15th, 2010, 04:15 PM
the order for IM is
fl bk br fr

but if you could change up the order of the IM
there are 24 stroke order combinations to choose from

They are:

fl bk br fr IM order
fl bk fr br
fl br bk fr
fl br fr bk (i think this is the fastest order)
fl fr bk br
fl fr br bk

bk fl br fr medley order
bk fl fr br
bk br fl fr (this is probably the slowest order, because you get no flip from fly to free)
bk br fr fl (this might be the most painful order)
bk fr fl br
bk fr br fl

br fl bk fr
br fl fr bk (tyler thinks this is the fastest order)
br bk fl fr
br bk fr fl
br fr bk fl
br fr fl bk

fr fl bk br
fr fl br bk
fr bk br fl
fr bk fl br
fr br bk fl
fr br fl bk

If normal stroke rules apply:

Which order is the fastest?
Why?

Which order is the slowest?
Why?

Which order is most painful?

if you moved breastroke to first or second in order would breastrokers have less of an advantage in IMs than they do with the traditional order?


a pretty easy work out would be

24 x 100 IM doing each stroke order sequence once


More challenging might be

24 x 200 IM doing each stroke order sequence once


seriously challenging would be

24 x 400 IM doing each stroke order sequence once

Daaaave
March 15th, 2010, 04:38 PM
Which is the fastest?
Why?

Simply switching bk & br might be faster than the standard. It would be for me, I think, and this would be my preference. I'm guessing that having the slowest stroke (br) as the third leg, where fatigue is peaking and the adrenaline for the last leg has yet to kick in might be slower than building through the backstroke as the third leg into the free. Plus you could argue for a back-to-free flip, and that there's some benefit for going short axis x2, then long axis x2.



Which is the slowest?
Why?
bk br fr fl

I'm just thinking of the delta between each legs' splits versus those of the standard order. Back and breast splits might not be too different in this order (bk a bit faster, br probably about the same). Then you'd have to be conservative on free (more so than going ba**s out at the end) and you'd be dead on the fly, way way slower than a first-leg fly.



Which is most painful?
bk fr br fl

I was thinking about something similar the other day in the context of making swimming more exciting. What if the IM order was selected at random and announced while the heat was behind the blocks? Different winners each time (take that, breastrokers), re-thinking strategy on the fly, needing to know your competitors really well, and new, exciting lead changes. Who would the coach enter in the IM given a 25% chance fly would be last?

chowmi
March 15th, 2010, 05:03 PM
Ande,

There is no need to wonder -in about a year from now, enter the

2011 Republic of Texas SCY World Championships and Shootout (formerly almost sponsored by Blueseventy who still hasn't come through)!

I agree in part with Tyler on the "fastest" order

Breast first - you gain so much more from the dive and you are freshest;
Fly second - you are used to a double hand touch and turn;
whether free or back 3rd or 4th - we were not allowed flip turns from free to back; I think it is more relative - are you a better backstroker than the person next to you to hang on during the 2nd 50.

The breastroke girls were NOT happy with breast being first - they thought they would lose a lot of competitive advantage.

Whether you actually swim faster depends on who you are racing and can you still swim fast while giggling, and if you are mentally tough enough to remember the order of strokes and how you have to do the turns, which is harder than you might think! The order of events was announced during the last 15 minutes of warmup.

Since your sets are more than my total daily yardage, I would do this set as:

10 x 100's as follows:
Every third ALL OUT!!! Not workout all out, not a set of 4 all out but really decending, but ALL OUT!! Start with 1, 4, 7, and 10
So you are only doing 4 but a very fast 4.
Right before each one, have the coach randomly give you the order - it can be any order EXCEPT traditional IM order.
Every 2, 3 is easy free.
Optional dive.
Generous interval

I would immediately decide to take the next day off after hearing the set, as part of my motivation to really do it ALL OUT!

knelson
March 15th, 2010, 05:04 PM
Anything with back first is going to be slower just because a backstroke start will be slower than a forward start from the blocks. I like your pick of fly, breast, free, back as the fastest. You get a forward start, you get fly done with first, and you get the advantage of a flip going from free to back.

The Fortress
March 15th, 2010, 06:17 PM
Anything with back first is going to be slower just because a backstroke start will be slower than a forward start from the blocks. I like your pick of fly, breast, free, back as the fastest. You get a forward start, you get fly done with first, and you get the advantage of a flip going from free to back.

That might be the fastest, but it would still be my second choice. My first choice would be breast-fly-free-back. The more time underwater in evil the better! And I like having my best/easiest stroke last. Easier to breathe when you need oxygen too.

Chris Stevenson
March 15th, 2010, 06:24 PM
I've always thought they should just leave the order up to the competitor. You could choose what you want and wouldn't have to specify the choice beforehand (but if you started with backstroke you could do a dive start and flip over on your back).

IM races are often the most fun events to watch anyway due to lead changes but this would make it even better.

The Fortress
March 15th, 2010, 06:28 PM
I've always thought they should just leave the order up to the competitor. You could choose what you want and wouldn't have to specify the choice beforehand (but if you started with backstroke you could do a dive start and flip over on your back).

IM races are often the most fun events to watch anyway due to lead changes but this would make it even better.

Totally agree!

And I agree with the other poster that back-free-breast-fly would be most painful for me.

chowmi
March 15th, 2010, 06:29 PM
I've always thought they should just leave the order up to the competitor. You could choose what you want and wouldn't have to specify the choice beforehand (but if you started with backstroke you could do a dive start and flip over on your back).

IM races are often the most fun events to watch anyway due to lead changes but this would make it even better.


This would be fun! I'd even bring a camera to tape -no, not the swimmers, but all the funny outtakes of the stroke/turn judges and see how they are able to watch 4 lanes each and keep track of who swam which strokes in what lane.

Just think if they ever applied that to the 200 and 400 IM - any order, as long as you do 2 lengths or 4 lengths of each stroke SOMEWHERE in that 200/400 IM, tee hee!!

My sister is taking classes to become a swimming official! It's actually very interesting!!!

Atlantic
March 15th, 2010, 06:42 PM
I'd like FL-BR-BA-FR. I love fly, but you just have to get it out of the way first. Breast next because I'm numb after the fly - and might as well be numb on my worst stroke. Back and free to follow. I agree with the above post about open turns and flip turns being together.

Or, we could just completely remove BR from the IM - swimmer chooses the stroke to replace it.

;)

knelson
March 15th, 2010, 06:49 PM
whether free or back 3rd or 4th - we were not allowed flip turns from free to back

I think they should allow flips in free. I know it's their meet and all, and can make up their own rules, but the rules in IM now dictate that you must finish each stroke legally. The freestyle rules only state that "some part of your body" must touch the wall on the turns and finish.

orca1946
March 15th, 2010, 06:57 PM
BR fly bk then free is my choice

aquageek
March 15th, 2010, 07:20 PM
That might be the fastest, but it would still be my second choice. My first choice would be breast-fly-free-back. The more time underwater in evil the better! And I like having my best/easiest stroke last. Easier to breathe when you need oxygen too.

This is #2 for me, would like breast - fly - back - free. Getting that extra breathing on the back would make for some explosive final lap free. I do agree with breast being first especially since I could mitigate my horribleness with a good start and a good turn while still fresh.

Karl_S
March 15th, 2010, 08:07 PM
... My first choice would be breast-fly-free-back. The more time underwater in evil the better! And I like having my best/easiest stroke last. Easier to breathe when you need oxygen too.

Agreed. Breast is the slowest so you want the dive there. Back last so you can breathe, (but on the 200 IM the final turn would hurt).

The Fortress
March 15th, 2010, 09:04 PM
Back last so you can breathe, (but on the 200 IM the final turn would hurt).

That's why I've retired from that event after one attempt.

Allen Stark
March 15th, 2010, 10:23 PM
I'm fine with the current order,but better would be-fly,BR,BR,free.

SwimSister
March 16th, 2010, 05:39 AM
I'm a sworn fan of 'tripley': FLY-BACK-FREE (or fly-free-back)
300 tripley LC/SC and 150 SC - great swims! :applaud:

SwimSister
March 16th, 2010, 05:44 AM
Just realised how much FLY-BACK-FREE sounds like an airline advert!

ande
March 16th, 2010, 09:59 AM
That would be very interesting
having to do 2 or 4 lengths of each stroke somewhere in the race.
but leaving you the choice of changing strokes on each 25

like a 200 IM where you go:
1) fl
2) fl
3) br
4) fr
5) br
6) fr
7) bk
8) bk



Just think if they ever applied that to the 200 and 400 IM - any order, as long as you do 2 lengths or 4 lengths of each stroke SOMEWHERE in that 200/400 IM, tee hee!!

aquageek
March 16th, 2010, 10:04 AM
It would be fun to have a meet where the IM order was at the choosing of each swimmer.

ande
March 16th, 2010, 10:09 AM
on the fastest combo, I picked fl br fr bk because:

1) I get fly out of the way, my worry about putting fly anywhere else is I'm likely to I'd tie up or go vertical

2) I get the breast out of the way while relatively fresh

3) I can flip the fr to bk turn instead of doing a hand touch which is slower

tyler says br fl fr bk
because you get more streamlining and gliding from your dive

now if you could mix up strokes and pick each 25 in a 200 IM
it might help to mix free in with back or breast, but I still think it's good to get fly done and move on

carlos_fernandez
March 16th, 2010, 11:59 AM
tyler says br fl fr bk
because you get more streamlining and gliding from your dive

I agree w/ Tyler. The opening dive eliminates more of the slowest stroke, fly is early enough that fatigue doesn't drag down the fly and the free-back exchange takes full advantage of an extra flip turn.

david.margrave
March 18th, 2010, 01:38 AM
In my case, I would absolutely do breaststroke first, to get the most out of the start and turns before getting tired. Then fly, to get that out of the way before exhaustion sets in, otherwise I might not finish. After that, probably backstroke, which I'm rotten at, so might as well use it to rest up for the final freestyle leg.

lefty
June 2nd, 2010, 10:06 PM
It is a logic puzzle. Here is what we know (assumes swimmer is elite level):

1. Breaststroke has to be first because it is the slowest stroke and thus the benefit of the start is maximized

2. Either breaststroke or butterfly has to be last because the two handed touch turn is the slowest.

3. Backstroke should be done before butterfly because the additional breathing will maximize the underwater dolphin kick on the fly leg.

If these are true then the optimal order is:

Breast, Free, Back, Fly

Karl_S
June 2nd, 2010, 10:27 PM
It is a logic puzzle. Here is what we know (assumes swimmer is elite level):

1. Breaststroke has to be first because it is the slowest stroke and thus the benefit of the start is maximized

2. Either breaststroke or butterfly has to be last because the two handed touch turn is the slowest.

3. Backstroke should be done before butterfly because the additional breathing will maximize the underwater dolphin kick on the fly leg.

If these are true then the optimal order is:

Breast, Free, Back, Fly

Your logic is fine, but I think there are some higher-order terms in the optimization that may be important. For example, does the "fatigue factor" associated with doing fly last cost more time than is saved by eliminating one 2-hand-touch turn?

lefty
June 3rd, 2010, 10:27 AM
Your logic is fine, but I think there are some higher-order terms in the optimization that may be important. For example, does the "fatigue factor" associated with doing fly last cost more time than is saved by eliminating one 2-hand-touch turn?


Not with an elite swimmer which is why I stipulated that. But for me(!) yes that is sadly something to consider.

Rykno
June 4th, 2010, 07:14 AM
The freestyle rules only state that "some part of your body" must touch the wall on the turns and finish.

But since it states freestyle in an IM can only be crawl and not any other stroke, wouldn't you be prevented from duing a flip turn since you are on your back or side before you hit the wall and are no long swimming freestyle??

I think the advantage I would get with a Breast start is too great not to lead off with that.

BR - FL - FR - BA

if we are allowed to do a flip turn FR to BA. that way I can breathe all I want/need on the last 25.

But if we could do a flip turn BA to FR then I would want to have free last, so I could catch my breath on the 3rd leg.