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Allen Stark
March 22nd, 2010, 10:58 PM
It is with some trepidation that I start this thread as I expect that many if not most Forumites will approach this issue with initial antagonism to my position in favor of butterfrog as explicated in the "both sides of the lane line" article in the current issue of SWIMMER but I ask Y'all to approach it with an open mind.(I expect antagonism as even my friends refer to my beloved and beautiful breaststroke as"evilstroke so I shudder at the initial reaction to butterfrog.)But look at the argument:George argues against it on historical and aesthetic grounds where as my argument is more practical.As to the aesthetic argument,what is uglier,both to the spectator and the participant than going vertical on butterfly.
George you are a great swimmer and an inspiration,but when is the last time you swam a 200 fly at a meet?

no200fly
March 23rd, 2010, 09:13 AM
I have been trying to figure out a way to incorporate a whip kick with dolphin kick. Maybe at turns or if I go vertical. It is a hard transition for me but I would think there is somewhere that a whip/frog kick could fit into the stroke without using it the whole race. Anyone ever experimented?

Chris Stevenson
March 23rd, 2010, 09:30 AM
I don't have the magazine so I can't comment on the arguments. But if you are arguing in favor of keeping it legal for masters, I don't have a problem with that. As long as "true" butterfly is still legal, of course.

But maybe George will persuade me otherwise.

Banning "evilstroke," on the other hand... :)

thewookiee
March 23rd, 2010, 10:00 AM
I don't have the magazine so I can't comment on the arguments. But if you are arguing in favor of keeping it legal for masters, I don't have a problem with that. As long as "true" butterfly is still legal, of course.

But maybe George will persuade me otherwise.

Banning "evilstroke," on the other hand... :)


I am in favor of banning freestyle too. Just have back and fly.

That Guy
March 23rd, 2010, 10:10 AM
I have no problem with butterfrog. It's not typically faster than butterfly, so it'd be hard to make an argument that it's cheating. For me, butterfly stops being butterfly when the arms aren't getting out of the water on recovery. Allen, I've seen you swim butterfrog, and your arms recover fully out of the water. No grief here. :)

Side note: Lately I've been noticing lap swimmers that from a distance seem to be swimming breaststroke, but when I see up close what they're doing underwater I think "wait, is that supposed to be butterfly???" I've decided to refer to such swimming as "short axis" since I really can't tell what it is, but it's definitely short axis... :confused:

__steve__
March 23rd, 2010, 01:38 PM
The way I look at it, arguing against the modified fly kick (bullfly) would be no different than arguing against any other kick pattern for free but a 4-beat. In free you can kick whatever you like, including dolphin.

Allen Stark
March 23rd, 2010, 02:03 PM
I have been trying to figure out a way to incorporate a whip kick with dolphin kick. Maybe at turns or if I go vertical. It is a hard transition for me but I would think there is somewhere that a whip/frog kick could fit into the stroke without using it the whole race. Anyone ever experimented?

In a 100 fly I change to butterfrog when/if I start to lose timing on fly.I find the transition easy.My tips for learning butterfrog were cut from the column due to space considerations.I think the easiest way to learn is to start swimming BR then begin using a fly pull after a few strokes.Since the pull is longer than in BR it is easy to begin to add a dolphin kick at the point the second dolphin would be in fly so that you retain 2 kicks,one whip and one dolphin.Especially on a 200 fly use the momentum from the whip kick to "ride the glide."

SolarEnergy
March 23rd, 2010, 02:08 PM
It is with some trepidation that I start this thread as I expect that many if not most Forumites will approach this issue with initial antagonism to my position in favor of butterfrog as explicated in the "both sides of the lane line" article in the current issue of SWIMMER but I ask Y'all to approach it with an open mind.(I expect antagonism as even my friends refer to my beloved and beautiful breaststroke as"evilstroke so I shudder at the initial reaction to butterfrog.)But look at the argument:George argues against it on historical and aesthetic grounds where as my argument is more practical.As to the aesthetic argument,what is uglier,both to the spectator and the participant than going vertical on butterfly.
George you are a great swimmer and an inspiration,but when is the last time you swam a 200 fly at a meet?
I would lie if I was saying that I understood your intro. So pardon me if I end up *far in the left field*.

If you're asking for our opinion on alternate ways of performing the butterfly, then I am for it 100%. Butterfrog is one of them. Fortress once mentioned about the idea of performing kicking during fly events. This is also very smart.

Last meet (last weekend), among the 80males that were there, only 4 attempted the 200m fly. Anything that can help increasing the participation to fly events should be considered in my humble opinion.

sjstuart
March 23rd, 2010, 02:24 PM
Someone mentioned that using a frog kick is slower, which doesn't surprise me, of course.

But is it true in all cases?

Example: I'm a breaststroker. I have a strong breaststroke kick, which is faster than all of my other kicks, including dolphin kick. My 200 BR (2:33 SCY) is faster than my 200 FL (2:36). The difference is even bigger in LCM where I don't get as many walls.

I'm sure the best way to improve my 200 FL in the long term is to learn to swim it better (cf. the video thread in which I am trying to do so). But now I'm curious: would I be faster in the short term with a frog kick?

That Guy
March 23rd, 2010, 03:27 PM
Someone mentioned that using a frog kick is slower, which doesn't surprise me, of course.

But is it true in all cases?

My anonymity kung fu is strong! :bliss:

What I meant is that the typical butterfrogger's breaststroke kick is slower than the typical butterflyer's dolphin kick. So the butterfrogger is not gaining an unfair advantage over the butterflyer. This is a generalization of course.

Allen Stark
March 23rd, 2010, 04:50 PM
Someone mentioned that using a frog kick is slower, which doesn't surprise me, of course.

But is it true in all cases?

Example: I'm a breaststroker. I have a strong breaststroke kick, which is faster than all of my other kicks, including dolphin kick. My 200 BR (2:33 SCY) is faster than my 200 FL (2:36). The difference is even bigger in LCM where I don't get as many walls.

I'm sure the best way to improve my 200 FL in the long term is to learn to swim it better (cf. the video thread in which I am trying to do so). But now I'm curious: would I be faster in the short term with a frog kick?

My butterfly is faster than my butterfrog for about 75 yd.After that I am better with a whip kick.Test it out for yourself.

no200fly
March 23rd, 2010, 05:08 PM
I think the easiest way to learn is to start swimming BR then begin using a fly pull after a few strokes.Since the pull is longer than in BR it is easy to begin to add a dolphin kick at the point the second dolphin would be in fly so that you retain 2 kicks,one whip and one dolphin."

Thanks - I have not received the magazine yet and I will read it when it comes. I started thinking about adding a whip kick into the turns or out of the turns when I was trying to figure out how to change from the level hand touch to a split touch in a way that would make a meaningful difference. I don't know if it is just old habits, but whip kick with butterfly stroke feels kind of like trying to pat my head and rub my tummy.

I will try again and see what happens.

osterber
March 23rd, 2010, 05:12 PM
I think that your 200 butterfrog time should only count for a 200 butterfly time if you make the request in writing to the meet referee before the end of the meet. :-)

-Rick

knelson
March 23rd, 2010, 05:38 PM
The way I look at it, arguing against the modified fly kick (bullfly) would be no different than arguing against any other kick pattern for free but a 4-beat. In free you can kick whatever you like, including dolphin.

I disagree with this. Freestyle is just that: free style. Butterfly, on the other hand isn't a free style. It originally diverged from breaststroke as a separate stroke due to the over the water recovery. You can do whatever you want in freestyle. You can do whatever you want in backstroke, as long as you stay on your back. Butterfly and breaststroke are much more stringent in what is and what is not allowed. So, having a different kick requirement doesn't seem strange to me. That said, I still think using a frog kick in fly should continue to be legal in masters.

LindsayNB
March 23rd, 2010, 05:58 PM
What was the original justification for Masters not using the same butterfly rules as everyone else?

ViveBene
March 23rd, 2010, 06:44 PM
Speedy or not?

Some swimmers are faster with frog/whip kick in every stroke.
My backstroke is much faster with a whip kick and double arm stroke.

It all depends on the swimmer.

George Park's basic argument is that "swimming has evolved into four distinct strokes," and there is no need to accept a variation of a stroke (butterfrog). Furthermore, "why should Masters be allowed to change the rule to suit themselves?"

orca1946
March 23rd, 2010, 06:48 PM
Let butter frog go , then I can do Dolfin - breast !!! :applaud::banana:

Allen Stark
March 23rd, 2010, 08:18 PM
What was the original justification for Masters not using the same butterfly rules as everyone else?
when Masters started(1970) whip kick was still legal at all levels.Some Masters swimmers had only learned fly with whip kick and it seemed unfair to require them to learn a new stroke.

Peter Cruise
March 23rd, 2010, 09:04 PM
Every so often I decide to venture a 400im (if I am in any sort of shape); doing the butterfrog forces me to not go out too fast and as it is not that strenuous I usually come back on most people in the race. That can be very satisfying. I have seen Mr Stark crush people who go out fast on 200fly as he waltzes by looking very relaxed.

The Fortress
March 23rd, 2010, 09:06 PM
when Masters started(1970) whip kick was still legal at all levels.Some Masters swimmers had only learned fly with whip kick and it seemed unfair to require them to learn a new stroke.

"It's not fair" is a horrible rationalization for butterfrog.

I had to learn to do evil with a whip kick, and that didn't seem fair. The current IM order isn't fair. Bulkheads aren't fair. Event order at meets is never fair. It's not fair that the 15 meter rule doesn't apply to evil, but does to backstroke. Given the rampant unfairness in our sport, butterfrog should go!

Grappledunk
March 23rd, 2010, 09:21 PM
In my day, "Butterfrog" was what we called an all butterfly workout... i.e., Fly till you croak.

Good times.

SolarEnergy
March 23rd, 2010, 09:46 PM
What was the original justification for Masters not using the same butterfly rules as everyone else? A fair assumption would be that some masters actually learned to swim butterfly this way at the first place. That is no longer the case for elites, even seniors.

It became irrelevant to even bother about writing rules about something no one would ever use anyway.

Allen Stark
March 23rd, 2010, 11:26 PM
"It's not fair" is a horrible rationalization for butterfrog.

I had to learn to do evil with a whip kick, and that didn't seem fair. The current IM order isn't fair. Bulkheads aren't fair. Event order at meets is never fair. It's not fair that the 15 meter rule doesn't apply to evil, but does to backstroke. Given the rampant unfairness in our sport, butterfrog should go!
Et tu Fort.
I just want to clarify the fairness rationale is what I understood was the thinking in the early 70s.My argument is practical,it is a good thing to do when you would otherwise be crashing and burning.I like the idea that it may increase participation in fly events,especially the 200 fly.My point is knowing butterfrog lets you swim a 200 fly knowing you can finish it,even if you start it with regular fly.

aquaFeisty
March 24th, 2010, 08:19 AM
I have not used butterfrog in a meet or practice.

However, I would likely NOT have ever attempted either the 400 IM or the 200 fly without the knowledge that I *could* switch to a breast kick if death was imminent. I've told other folks like myself, who don't any or hardly any age group/past swimming background to give those events a try, knowing that you can switch kicks and still finish. So I believe that butterfrog has increased participation in some of the 'scarier' events.

:)

some_girl
March 24th, 2010, 10:42 AM
Et tu Fort.
I just want to clarify the fairness rationale is what I understood was the thinking in the early 70s.My argument is practical,it is a good thing to do when you would otherwise be crashing and burning.I like the idea that it may increase participation in fly events,especially the 200 fly.My point is knowing butterfrog lets you swim a 200 fly knowing you can finish it,even if you start it with regular fly.

That's exactly why it shouldn't be legal. If you want to swim a 2 fly, train enough and don't be a wuss. Don't be like "ooo, here is a tiny little loophole that works for me because I happen to be an evilstroker." Geez.

Or legalize dolphin kick in breast. Then sure.

Allen Stark
March 24th, 2010, 02:14 PM
That's exactly why it shouldn't be legal. If you want to swim a 2 fly, train enough and don't be a wuss. Don't be like "ooo, here is a tiny little loophole that works for me because I happen to be an evilstroker." Geez.

Or legalize dolphin kick in breast. Then sure.

Ah,the elitist anti-wuss argument!Why not make open turns illegal in free and BK and make starts not from the blocks illegal with the same argument.If you can swim a 200 fly with good form great for you,no butterfrogger will beat you.

thewookiee
March 24th, 2010, 02:36 PM
Ah,the elitist anti-wuss argument!Why not make open turns illegal in free and BK and make starts not from the blocks illegal with the same argument.If you can swim a 200 fly with good form great for you,no butterfrogger will beat you.

Allen,

You must remember that some people don't believe in doing anything but the way they were taught to do so, even if others were taught a different way because of the time when they learned.
Or it could be one of those people that have a corn cob stuck up the arse.

knelson
March 24th, 2010, 03:37 PM
You must remember that some people don't believe in doing anything but the way they were taught to do so, even if others were taught a different way because of the time when they learned.


It seems like this one goes both ways, though. Some people learned to do butterfly using a frog kick, thus refuse to change to a dolphin kick. Likewise, those who learned using dolphin can't see why the other version should be legal. Which side is being obstinate?

some_girl
March 24th, 2010, 03:53 PM
It seems like this one goes both ways, though. Some people learned to do butterfly using a frog kick, thus refuse to change to a dolphin kick. Likewise, those who learned using dolphin can't see why the other version should be legal. Which side is being obstinate?

Compelling and yet, if I can't be obstinate what *can* I ever win in?

Seriously, it's using a loophole meant for old people to avoid doing something the right way. You know in your heart it is wrong; otherwise why the venom?

thewookiee
March 24th, 2010, 04:01 PM
It seems like this one goes both ways, though. Some people learned to do butterfly using a frog kick, thus refuse to change to a dolphin kick. Likewise, those who learned using dolphin can't see why the other version should be legal. Which side is being obstinate?

Kirk, like you, I learned fly with a dolphin kick. It's the only thing I have ever known. But I also know that not everyone has learned fly that way, since I have tried to study the history of the sport.

I don't think too many people that swim butterfrog haven't tried to learn how to dolphin kick on fly. In fact, I would say many, if not most, have tried to learn it to make them faster.

But it seems to be that a number of people who learned fly with a dolphin kick seem to be smug, if not a$$holes to people that swim fly with a breastroke kick, when instead everyone should be happy to see a person out there doing a 50, 100, 200 fly race instead of not participating in the events.

If it takes someone swimming fly events with a breaststroke kick, gets them to be involved in an event, a meet, part of masters, how is that a bad thing?

thewookiee
March 24th, 2010, 04:03 PM
Compelling and yet, if I can't be obstinate what *can* I ever win in?

Seriously, it's using a loophole meant for old people to avoid doing something the right way. You know in your heart it is wrong; otherwise why the venom?

If it is in the rule book, which it is, how is it a loophole? If the "old people" finish a race and don't get disqualified, then they have done it the right way.

knelson
March 24th, 2010, 04:12 PM
If it takes someone swimming fly events with a breaststroke kick, gets them to be involved in an event, a meet, part of masters, how is that a bad thing?

I agree. I already said I think butterfrog should continue to be allowed.

That Guy
March 24th, 2010, 04:56 PM
No grief here. :)

I guess I should have used a larger font and all caps. Let me try again.

LESS :argue:, MORE :chug:!!!

orca1946
March 24th, 2010, 05:28 PM
All change is not good & all progress is not forward !

chowmi
March 25th, 2010, 10:12 AM
I have been trying to figure out a way to incorporate a whip kick with dolphin kick. Maybe at turns or if I go vertical. It is a hard transition for me but I would think there is somewhere that a whip/frog kick could fit into the stroke without using it the whole race. Anyone ever experimented?

If you are serious about trying this, then I suggest:

1. Read the rules CAREFULLY;
2. It's one thing to read it; you have to actually practice it to understand it;
3. Have one of the officials, not your buddy or lanemate, watch you to see if it's legal. No point misinterpreting it and then getting DQ'd. The officials that volunteer at the NT swim meets are very nice and I asked one to actually watch me during warm up and explain changing kick within a length and on/off the turns. It is a bit tricky.
4. Develop your whip kick style. I used this at a time when I was in poor condition, but wanted to see if I could just finish it. I found it works best to have a really narrow kick and don't bend your knees to bring the feet up as far as in your regular breastroke. You also have to adjust your timeing to fly arms vs. your breast arm cycle. I wasn't going for speed, just for vertical-ness and to finish legally, so the emphasis was on getting as little drag but as much lift as possible. Think "6 inch baby kicks" and in the recovery portion "lift" your legs "up and out" of the way to avoid up/down drag and side/side drag. If I remember correctly, the key words are something like "mirror image" leg movement, or at least that's what I think about rather than an actual breast kick.

I have swum this event both ways. Butterfrog at 2:31 was no less satisfying (squeeked in for a top ten time!) than going 2:15's in my early masters, or 2:06 in college. Times are absolute and unambiguous; interpretation is up to you.

South Central Zones, SCY 2008. Last 100 butterfrog.

North Texas officials? They are the nicest people and really dedicated. They would be HAPPY if swimmers asked them questions - particulary before their swims!! Uh, not right before, ask them during warm ups or in a quiet moment before the meets starts.

I asked Paula Kelley. She swims on DAMM but officiates plenty of our meets as well as swimming the meets herself. She's very friendly and would be happy to explain the rules. Another is the guy who does everything - I think it's Tom Osterber or something like that. Not to be confused with the forumite with a similar name. I think he would actually love to have people ask him about the finer points of legal swimming.

And last, regarding the debate - I have no position. Whatever the volunteers on the rules committee decide is ok with me! And thanks for doing the heavy lifting for the rest of us!

no200fly
March 26th, 2010, 09:27 AM
If you are serious about trying this, then I suggest:

1. Read the rules CAREFULLY;
***
4. Develop your whip kick style. I used this at a time when I was in poor condition, but wanted to see if I could just finish it. I found it works best to have a really narrow kick and don't bend your knees to bring the feet up as far as in your regular breastroke.
***
Think "6 inch baby kicks" and in the recovery portion "lift" your legs "up and out" of the way to avoid up/down drag and side/side drag.
***
And last, regarding the debate - I have no position. Whatever the volunteers on the rules committee decide is ok with me! And thanks for doing the heavy lifting for the rest of us!

Thanks Michelle. I have worked some on the thinner, more streamlined whip kick and it works better than my regular breaststroke kick. What I have been trying to do is to figure out how I could use a whip kick in conjunction with dolphin kick in a race. One thing I have tried is putting in one thin whip kick at the time of my initial arm pull from the start and after each turn. My thought was it might help overcome inertia and maybe decrease fatigue because it used different muscle groups. What I found was that the drag outweighed the benefit. Decreasing the size of the kick helps some, but it still does not feel like there is a benefit.

I have also experimented with a whip kick into the wall. I have the same general feeling about it; however I have not tried it that much and I have seen a glimmer of hope for a whip kick when I have not timed my stroke to reach a wall on a full stroke.

I don't think I am ready to try it out in a meet yet, but your idea of talking to the meet official before the race is a good one. I have the same opinion regarding the rule, whatever the committee decides is okay with me.