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Jimbosback
April 21st, 2010, 01:58 PM
So I am fine tuning my stroke for my first meet. I am noticing that my hands during the underwater recovery really drag, and I can't figure out a hand position that will stop it.

I take a big pull (how I was taught), way deeper on my chest than my regular pull, so the hands have a long way to go along my body. Am I still supposed to do this?

Any general comments regarding starts and turns welcome, too.

Luckily, my meet is LCM, so I only have to worry about it on the start next week.

Thanks for any help. BTW, swam a 36 (50Y) from the wall at the end of practice today, which is great for me, so thanks again to everyone who has helped me out. :chug:

Allen Stark
April 21st, 2010, 07:07 PM
Your pull on the pullout should be very similar to your pull in fly,except you bring your hands all the way back below your hips.Make sure you shrug your shoulders for streamlining.As soon as you begin to slow down begin to creep your hands up your abdomen and then chest with your palms facing your body and touching or nearly touching your body.Keep your elbows locked against your sides as long as possible.When your hands get up to about your face accelerate and shoot them forward as you kick.

Ahelee Sue Osborn
April 21st, 2010, 07:24 PM
As soon as you begin to slow down begin to creep your hands up your abdomen and then chest with your palms facing your body and touching or nearly touching your body.

Rigid straight hands here - so they feel like they're slicing!

The Fortress
April 21st, 2010, 08:30 PM
Keep your elbows locked against your sides as long as possible.When your hands get up to about your face accelerate and shoot them forward as you kick.

I'm apparently doing this all wrong ... You start kicking before you've surfaced? Do you get any air that way? In my evilstroke sequence, I shoot my arms forward into a streamline position and then pull and kick.

Ahelee Sue Osborn
April 21st, 2010, 08:40 PM
Hands begin to move up the body first, then the kick begins right after and shoots the hands forward to streamline.

Then start your evilstroke madness!

The Fortress
April 21st, 2010, 08:44 PM
Hands begin to move up the body first, then the kick begins right after and shoots the hands forward to streamline.

Then start your evilstroke madness!

OK, I went through my sequence standing here and I think I am doing it right. It's one thing to visualize and another to do. Whew, close call.

Still think I need to work on keeping my hands under and close to my body.

Allen Stark
April 21st, 2010, 09:24 PM
OK, I went through my sequence standing here and I think I am doing it right. It's one thing to visualize and another to do. Whew, close call.

Still think I need to work on keeping my hands under and close to my body.

I've seen your pullout and it is fundamentally right.Originally you were allowed one stroke underwater(really originally you could swim as far underwater as possible,but the rule was changed as that was too dangerous.)Now with rule changes you get 2 kicks(one dolphin,one whip) and 1 1/2 pulls.Your head must break the surface before the insweep of the second pull.You definitely want to start that pull underwater so that you accelerate into the breakout.

Jimbosback
April 21st, 2010, 10:23 PM
Rigid straight hands here - so they feel like they're slicing!

Thanks Allen -- just what I needed -- and thanks for this point, too. My hands are kind of flopping downward, and I feel the drag on the back of my hands. :applaud:

ande
April 22nd, 2010, 03:01 PM
breastroke pull outs
after you pull down and your hands are by your hips,
move your hands from your hips back to above your head,

first turn your hands & forearms sideways & slice them through the water like knife blades.

once your hands are near your shoulders, stab them forward like a daggers
till you are in an unlocked streamline then start breastroking.

glide far on your push offs & you pull outs but never stop or stall out, begin moving your hands forward while you still have some momentum.

Calvin S
April 22nd, 2010, 03:07 PM
what do you other breaststrokers think?

fly kick right after the arms split from streamline (i.e. before the down stroke) or after the downstroke as the arms come to the side?

i have always done the latter, but i see some of the fastest breaststrokers in the world do the former. which do some you guys prefer?

Snillor84
April 22nd, 2010, 03:21 PM
Fantastic thread!

I have been playing around with this since we have been allowed to do it. You can go farther faster by doing the dolphin kick after your hands have split. According to my understanding of the rule, all the hands have to do is move before you do the kick, so even if they have not separated, if they have moved then you are good to go.

As far as the rest of the pullout goes, a wide out-sweep of the hands really sets up for a powerful pull. You gotta use those big swimmer muscles (lats) to force the water back past your feet. Squeeze everything together when you are in your "slowest" position. This is when your hands are at your side and you have your head exposed. There was a quote before saying that when you start to slow down you need to bring your hands up, but you dont want to slow down. You will have to play with it to realize when you are losing speed. You want to shoot your hands up to a streamline before you slow down. Right as your kick is coming to a snapping finish you want to start your first stroke on the surface. That first stroke sets up the rest of the length. Make sure you are getting as much of your body out and over the surface of the water as possible to make it as easy as possible.

I could probably go on for days on how to improve your pullout. But, as I am sitting here sipping on my coffee :anim_coffee: (I love that icon!) I realize that it could get a little confusing. The main thing to remember is that a pullout is different for everyone. You need to play with it and feel for yourself which is best for you. Dont lose speed, and carry your momentum over the surface on your first stroke.

Best of luck!

Dave:anim_coffee:

knelson
April 22nd, 2010, 03:30 PM
One thing I find myself doing a lot is lifting my head too early. I get close to the surface and want to lift my head instinctively, even though I know this is creating extra drag. I think some breaststrokers even choose not to breathe on the first stroke, thus keeping their momentum going from the pullout.

The Fortress
April 22nd, 2010, 03:35 PM
what do you other breaststrokers think?

fly kick right after the arms split from streamline (i.e. before the down stroke) or after the downstroke as the arms come to the side?

i have always done the latter, but i see some of the fastest breaststrokers in the world do the former. which do some you guys prefer?

I'm not a breastroker; more of a flyer. As such, I always pre-kick, i.e., take a strong dolphin kick before the pulldown. From what I've gleaned, if you have a good dolphin kick and streamline, that is faster. If you don't, it's likely better to incorporate the kick in the down stroke. Also, there is a slight risk of a DQ with the pre-kick. When you pull down really hard, there is undulation that can potentially be perceived as a dolphin kick even though it is not. But I gotta take this risk.

I tend to do the same thing with my head, Kirk. I think it relates to the primal desire to breathe. But it does create big time drag.

The Fortress
April 22nd, 2010, 03:39 PM
As far as the rest of the pullout goes, a wide out-sweep of the hands really sets up for a powerful pull.

What do you mean exactly by this? Placing your hands wide before you begin the pull down or using a wide keyhole type pull down? I didn't think we were supposed to have a sculling motion in the pull down but pull straight like in a fly pull? But what do I know? :)

Snillor84
April 22nd, 2010, 04:20 PM
I was thinking more of the key-hole type pull. I know that in butterfly (and this is what I teach my swimmers too) it is better to do a straight back pull, but what I have found on pullouts is that you can get a little more pull on the water with a wide sweaping pull and a big push at the end of the pull.

But then again, like I said before it is different for everyone. That is just works for me :)

Allen Stark
April 22nd, 2010, 05:34 PM
I do the dolphin with the pullout.Doing it early I go further underwater,but not faster to the 15 Yd mark(I don't have a great dolphin kick.)Being underwater longer is not necessarily an advantage for me as I am more likely to feel oxygen starved and raise my head for the first breath,especially on the last turn of the 200.Also there is a greater chance of DQ with the early kick,but if you have a great dolphin kick it may be worth it.I suspect there will be less advantage to the early kick without tech suits as tech suits really help the glide,we will see.

Ahelee Sue Osborn
April 22nd, 2010, 05:58 PM
I was thinking more of the key-hole type pull.

We call it a "LOLLIPOP"

The beginning or top of the pull is round - the SUCKER -
Hands almost coming together under the body then the push downwards is the STICK.

Finish by sneaking the hands up from the same place they finished the STICK straight into the streamline.

Ande, have you tried this? I think it is better than pulling the hands down and finishing outside the hips.
More aero...

swimsuit addict
April 22nd, 2010, 06:32 PM
When I went to a clinic with an Olympic swimmer many years ago, he explained how he shrugged his shoulders up really hard right at the end of his armpull on his breaststroke pullouts, in order to make himself more streamlined in that hands-by-the-sides position. When he demonstrated this on dry land, he went from looking like someone with a normal neck and head to looking more like a torpedo-shaped object, with his shoulders tucked right up near his ears.

Since that demonstration made sense to me, I shrugged my shoulders up at the end of my pull for years, until one day I was swimming outdoors and noticed my shadow on the bottom of the pool. I didn't look anything like a torpedo; instead, shrugging my shoulders merely brought them up from their normal sloping position to a squared-off one, probably unstreamlining me, if anything. I don't think I have enough leeway in my shoulder movement to look torpedo-like when I shrug my shoulders, no matter how forcefully I do it.

So while the shrugging thing doesn't work for me, it might be beneficial for those with more shoulder flexibility. Does anyone do this?

Allen Stark
April 22nd, 2010, 07:14 PM
When I went to a clinic with an Olympic swimmer many years ago, he explained how he shrugged his shoulders up really hard right at the end of his armpull on his breaststroke pullouts, in order to make himself more streamlined in that hands-by-the-sides position. When he demonstrated this on dry land, he went from looking like someone with a normal neck and head to looking more like a torpedo-shaped object, with his shoulders tucked right up near his ears.

Since that demonstration made sense to me, I shrugged my shoulders up at the end of my pull for years, until one day I was swimming outdoors and noticed my shadow on the bottom of the pool. I didn't look anything like a torpedo; instead, shrugging my shoulders merely brought them up from their normal sloping position to a squared-off one, probably unstreamlining me, if anything. I don't think I have enough leeway in my shoulder movement to look torpedo-like when I shrug my shoulders, no matter how forcefully I do it.

So while the shrugging thing doesn't work for me, it might be beneficial for those with more shoulder flexibility. Does anyone do this?

YES,YES,YES!!! It is much more streamlined for me.

Midas
April 22nd, 2010, 08:49 PM
what do you other breaststrokers think?

fly kick right after the arms split from streamline (i.e. before the down stroke) or after the downstroke as the arms come to the side?

i have always done the latter, but i see some of the fastest breaststrokers in the world do the former. which do some you guys prefer?

Nobody seems to DQ the elite swimmers for this, but there are definitely USMS judges that will DQ you unless your arm movement is quite pronounced. I used to do it first and thought it was faster, but went back to doing the kick at the end of my pulldown after getting DQ'd for it. Be careful.