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ande
April 25th, 2010, 10:37 AM
The Breastroke Lane, This is a place for breastrokers Unite
some call it EVIL STROKE,
It's a weird stroke, Inspired from frogs
lot's of resistance, takes strength & technique
it helps to have strong legs & feet that turn out
you get slower intervals & have a built in advantage in IMs
figure out your order and make the sets
you spend much of your time underwater, holding your breath while your lungs are about to burst.
chat some between sets and on easy kicks

talk to each other

What did you do in practice today?


the breastroke lane


The Middle Distance Lane


The Backstroke Lane


The Butterfly Lane


The SDK Lane


The Taper Lane


The Distance Lane


The IM Lane


The Sprint Free Lane


The Pool Deck

Allen Stark
April 25th, 2010, 11:10 AM
It's only called evil stroke by those who can't do it.My favorite BR quote was from a coach in an article on how to swim the 400 IM.Of the BR leg he said most should focus on tempo because"only the few,BLESSED BY GOD,are allowed to glide."(my capitalization)Are you one of the "blessed" who can do the kick right? Isn't it great?

androvski
April 25th, 2010, 11:21 AM
I concur with Allen. This a quote I had laying around on my computer.

"Many years ago, I was very very fortunate to spend a little time with former world record holder,
Olympic gold medal winning coach and outstanding breaststroke technician Terry Gathercole.
One morning we were on deck at the Australian Institute of Sport watching some elite level breaststrokers
when all of a sudden he said “Shhh – listen to that”. I said “what?”
Again he said, “Listen to that”. Again I said “what – I can’t hear anything”. Terry smiled and replied, “That’s why
breaststroke is the best stroke. It takes finesse. It’s a peaceful and gentle stroke. It takes real skill. It takes the best
swimmers to swim it well. It is an art form”."

dolu
April 25th, 2010, 12:41 PM
hi guys,
is here someone who can swim 50 BR SCM under 30 sec? or LCM under 31? if so, how fast you kick in practice? 25, 50, 100 ?

thanks

mpmartin
April 25th, 2010, 12:53 PM
Breaststroke is the best, it ROCKS!

ElaineK
April 25th, 2010, 03:01 PM
Yeah, I found a "home" in this thread! :D:banana::bliss:

Breaststroke was my specialty in high school and is the ONLY stroke I'm competing in as a new Masters swimmer (31 years later...).

Hey Ande, I got through EVERY SINGLE ONE of your tips and took a lot of notes! There are so many I will be referring back to often. THANKS AGAIN! :applaud:

Your tips are helping. I think "Ride the Glide" all the time, now, and it worked at today's developmental meet in Atlanta. I took 1+ second off my 50 breast and almost 2 seconds off my 100 breast and 200 breast. And, I split my 200 as you suggested. Your advice has been a great help! :D

PLEASE, breaststrokers, keep this thread alive!:cheerleader: We have to stick together! And, if I can give any advice at all, read Ande's Tips!!! :applaud:

ElaineK
April 25th, 2010, 06:11 PM
Are you one of the "blessed" who can do the kick right? Isn't it great?

Hey Allen, I've seen your posts all over the forums, including the threads I have started. I appreciate your support and pro-breaststroke spirit! And, of course, I like your avatar.:D

Just for the heck of it, I decided to look you up in the "Swimmer Lookup" for Nationals and see where you are seeded for your breaststroke events. WOW!:applaud:

Then, I checked out your ranking for 50 breaststroke. :applaud::applaud::D

Good luck at Nationals. I hope you WIN! :cheerleader:

gobears
April 25th, 2010, 07:29 PM
Breaststroke RULES :applaud:

Allen Stark
April 25th, 2010, 09:02 PM
Hey Allen, I've seen your posts all over the forums, including the threads I have started. I appreciate your support and pro-breaststroke spirit! And, of course, I like your avatar.:D

Just for the heck of it, I decided to look you up in the "Swimmer Lookup" for Nationals and see where you are seeded for your breaststroke events. WOW!:applaud:

Then, I checked out your ranking for 50 breaststroke. :applaud::applaud::D

Good luck at Nationals. I hope you WIN! :cheerleader:

Thanks,I love breaststroke.Nationals should be fun,but "the Man" Bob Strand is the number one seed.It's great to swim with him though as you have to love swimming with the best.
Good Luck to you at Nats,your are bound to get some PBs.
Breaststroke Forever!!!!:banana::banana::banana:

ElaineK
April 25th, 2010, 09:06 PM
Thanks,I love breaststroke.Nationals should be fun,but "the Man" Bob Strand is the number one seed.It's great to swim with him though as you have to love swimming with the best.
Good Luck to you at Nats,your are bound to get some PBs.
Breaststroke Forever!!!!:banana::banana::banana:

I saw Bob Strand up there as the top seed, but your times are close. You can BEAT him, so I'm hoping you do! :cheerleader:

Here's to the breaststroke! :chug: :bliss:

Thanks for your words of encouragement! :)

The Fortress
April 25th, 2010, 11:17 PM
Breaststroke Forever!!!!:banana::banana::banana:

I swam 2 breaststroke events this weekends and was way too deep on all my pullouts. How do I fix this? My push off angle must be all wrong ... ??

I did PR my 50 breast, but literally had to float to the top on the first 25, which cause me to jerk my head up to get to the surface. :(

I also got the most bogus DQ on my 100 evil. It makes me leery to swim it again.

Allen Stark
April 25th, 2010, 11:35 PM
I swam 2 breaststroke events this weekends and was way too deep on all my pullouts. How do I fix this? My push off angle must be all wrong ... ??

I did PR my 50 breast, but literally had to float to the top on the first 25, which cause me to jerk my head up to get to the surface. :(

I also got the most bogus DQ on my 100 evil. It makes me leery to swim it again.
Proper depth just takes practice.You may be pushing off too deep or angling down on the pulldown.I'd have to see to be sure.What happened in the 100?

Allen Stark
April 25th, 2010, 11:39 PM
I saw Bob Strand up there as the top seed, but your times are close. You can BEAT him, so I'm hoping you do! :cheerleader:

Here's to the breaststroke! :chug: :bliss:

Thanks for your words of encouragement! :)
Thanks.It's going to be fun.
Let me know what heat you are in so I can watch.

Chris Stevenson
April 26th, 2010, 12:11 AM
I also got the most bogus DQ on my 100 evil. It makes me leery to swim it again.

I saw that on the results, a real bummer. (I know the feeling, though... :))

Looks like you had a good meet, though.

pwolf66
April 26th, 2010, 09:30 AM
Proper depth just takes practice.You may be pushing off too deep or angling down on the pulldown.I'd have to see to be sure.What happened in the 100?

What I do is assume a slightly downward angle as I begin my pull, then use the force of the pull to bring me to tilt upward slightly, then as I snap the end of my pull that will place me in a rising angle of attack for my recovery and kick.

The issue here is that the depth of entry that works for you on free, fly and back because of your ability to dolphin kick is working against you slightly in breast as you end up about a foot too deep.

A way too fix also is to pause for about half a beat more before you start the pull, before you start your breast kick and before you start the second pull. But that method will create 'dead' spots where your speed goes to almost zero.

psyncw
April 26th, 2010, 09:39 AM
the dolphin kick also helps you to re-orient your depth and direction headed to the surface, especially when you do it as you do your underwater pull rather than before it.

__steve__
April 26th, 2010, 10:03 AM
feet that turn out

Feet that naturally point outwards actually have a specific purpose in swimming?

ande
April 26th, 2010, 10:33 AM
hey Elaine-iaK,

thank you for your kind words about Swim Faster Faster.
The tips work, they've worked for many who tried & applied them. They've also worked for me, I'm my own guinea pig, they've helped me swim faster now than I did 5 years ago. Some provide instant gratification with instant improvement, (especially for beginners & rebeginners, those who are back after a long hiatus) some take a while, but they work.

I hope to turn them into a book. I decided to put the info on the web, so folks could use it, rather than just let it sit on my hard drive for just me & the few I talk to.

I want you to swim faster faster, even breastrokers.

Ande




Hey Ande, I got through EVERY SINGLE ONE of your tips and took a lot of notes! There are so many I will be referring back to often. THANKS AGAIN! :applaud:

Your tips are helping. I think "Ride the Glide" all the time, now, and it worked at today's developmental meet in Atlanta. I took 1+ second off my 50 breast and almost 2 seconds off my 100 breast and 200 breast. And, I split my 200 as you suggested. Your advice has been a great help! :D

And, if I can give any advice at all, read Ande's Tips!!!

ViveBene
April 26th, 2010, 11:04 AM
Feet that naturally point outwards actually have a specific purpose in swimming?

Yes, in BR. Feet are flexed outward from ankle during propulsive phase of kick; the side of the foot catches and pushes back on water.
:)

The Fortress
April 26th, 2010, 11:20 AM
I saw that on the results, a real bummer. (I know the feeling, though... :))



The S&T judge (who unfortunately was also doubling as the deck ref) said I took "two complete breaststroke stroke cycles underwater before surfacing" and he wrote "pull, kick, pull, kick." I can guarantee you I did not take 2 breaststroke cycles underwater; I'm not an 8 & Under. I think he must have confused by my scull hands out, dolphin kick, pull down and kick up. I went very far underwater, so he probably assumed something was wrong. Had I actually done something wrong (flutter kicked to the surfaced, been nailed for undulation looking like a second dolphin kick), I wouldn't have said a word. But I was fairly steamed on principle; there is simply no way I did what he described and wrote up in the DQ. He was dead wrong. And he also did not write to the rule on his DQ slip.

I've tried doing what Wolfy describes on my pull outs, but I still end up way too deep. I guess I shouldn't angle down at all since my dolphin kick leaves me too deep.

Jeff Commings
April 26th, 2010, 11:52 AM
The S&T judge (who unfortunately was also doubling as the deck ref) said I took "two complete breaststroke stroke cycles underwater before surfacing" and he wrote "pull, kick, pull, kick." I can guarantee you I did not take 2 breaststroke cycles underwater; I'm not an 8 & Under. I think he must have confused by my scull hands out, dolphin kick, pull down and kick up. I went very far underwater, so he probably assumed something was wrong. Had I actually done something wrong (flutter kicked to the surfaced, been nailed for undulation looking like a second dolphin kick), I wouldn't have said a word. But I was fairly steamed on principle; there is simply no way I did what he described and wrote up in the DQ. He was dead wrong. And he also did not write to the rule on his DQ slip.

I've tried doing what Wolfy describes on my pull outs, but I still end up way too deep. I guess I shouldn't angle down at all since my dolphin kick leaves me too deep.

He might have been referring to something a lot of people do when they are too deep on their pullouts.

If you are too deep after your breaststroke kick after your pullout, sometimes you start your outsweep while you are too deep, and if you start your insweep before your head breaks the surface, you will get disqualified:

Form the rule book:
After the start and after each turn, the swimmer may take one arm stroke completely back to the legs. The head must break the surface of the water before the hands turn inward at the widest part of the second stroke.

Ahelee Sue Osborn
April 26th, 2010, 12:16 PM
He might have been referring to something a lot of people do when they are too deep on their pullouts.

If you are too deep after your breaststroke kick after your pullout, sometimes you start your outsweep while you are too deep, and if you start your insweep before your head breaks the surface, you will get disqualified:

Form the rule book:
After the start and after each turn, the swimmer may take one arm stroke completely back to the legs. The head must break the surface of the water before the hands turn inward at the widest part of the second stroke.

I don't know what Fort's pullout looked like since I wasn't there and underwater looking at it... but -

Jeff - this is a GREAT rule for everyone to keep in mind. Very easy to be in a rush to get going fast and start pulling out for the stroke too soon.

Fort, I am wondering if your head is dipped down in the brute force of your dolphin kick. This is hard to see or even feel if you aren't aware of it or watching from the side underwater.

Your head has to be straight on your spine as you pull-down.
I like to think there is a very subtle feeling of a lift of the chest as you are surfacing - but the head stays locked straight on the spine.

Watch the fast breaststrokers surface for the first stroke/breath. Chin is nicely tucked in...

I'm not a breaststoker - but I did just drop over a second off my 100 breast time this weekend.
Zero training for it - just a lot of chatting here about technique!
Awareness counts. Thanks guys.
:)

ande
April 26th, 2010, 12:29 PM
thanks jeff, good to know



Form the rule book:
The head must break the surface of the water before the hands turn inward at the widest part of the second stroke.

Karen Duggan
April 26th, 2010, 01:05 PM
the stroke is spelled: b-r-e-a-s-t-s-t-r-o-k-e

I have seen:
beaststroke (it's really not that beastly!)
beststroke (debatable)
breastroke

any other???

hofffam
April 26th, 2010, 01:10 PM
I swam 2 breaststroke events this weekends and was way too deep on all my pullouts. How do I fix this? My push off angle must be all wrong ... ??

I did PR my 50 breast, but literally had to float to the top on the first 25, which cause me to jerk my head up to get to the surface. :(

I also got the most bogus DQ on my 100 evil. It makes me leery to swim it again.

One thing I find is that most competition pools are deeper than my practice pool. So I am often a bit too deep racing since I calibrate my trajectory based at least partly on the bottom of the pool.

You may also have a good trajectory, but with a racing suit on and the adrenaline of racing it simply carries you farther and deeper than you want.

The Fortress
April 26th, 2010, 02:39 PM
He might have been referring to something a lot of people do when they are too deep on their pullouts.

If you are too deep after your breaststroke kick after your pullout, sometimes you start your outsweep while you are too deep, and if you start your insweep before your head breaks the surface, you will get disqualified:

Form the rule book:
After the start and after each turn, the swimmer may take one arm stroke completely back to the legs. The head must break the surface of the water before the hands turn inward at the widest part of the second stroke.

Jeff,

I'm a stroke & turn judge, so I'm aware of the wording of the rule. I specifically asked him if this is what he meant to call. He said no. He said he saw me do 2 breaststroke kicks and that is flat out BS and wrong. It was a bad call.

Karen Duggan
April 26th, 2010, 02:53 PM
Blame it on the red suit.
He was so distracted by your athleticism and beauty, his eyes temporarily glazed over, thus the double pulldown.
:bow:

The Fortress
April 26th, 2010, 03:07 PM
Blame it on the red suit.
He was so distracted by your athleticism and beauty, his eyes temporarily glazed over, thus the double pulldown.
:bow:

lol. I was wearing my black B70 all day. Saving my Fred Bousquet suit for Nats.

The Fortress
April 26th, 2010, 03:09 PM
I
Fort, I am wondering if your head is dipped down in the brute force of your dolphin kick. This is hard to see or even feel if you aren't aware of it or watching from the side underwater.

Your head has to be straight on your spine as you pull-down.
I like to think there is a very subtle feeling of a lift of the chest as you are surfacing - but the head stays locked straight on the spine.



I think you may be right. I will focus on this when I swim tomorrow. Thx.

And congrats on your 100 breast PB. :)

jroddin
April 26th, 2010, 03:22 PM
I'm a stroke & turn judge, so I'm aware of the wording of the rule. I specifically asked him if this is what he meant to call. He said no. He said he saw me do 2 breaststroke kicks and that is flat out BS and wrong. It was a bad call.

First, I'll say a DQ can put quite a damper on a meet (unless you are Wally - when he gets DQd he just shrugs his shoulders and says it makes up for the times when he didn't get caught!).

I agree you didn't take 2 full pulls and 2 full kicks. But would it have made you feel any better if he responded to your question with, "you are right - you only took one kick but you took two pulls so the DQ still stands." I'm not sure I understand what your intention was with protesting the wording on the DQ slip.

Whether you did an illegal pullout or not, it was certainly suspicious to go almost to the (second) flags with your pullout so that's probably a lesson learned to not draw that kind of attention in the future. I'm sorry about the DQ but glad it didn't ruin your meet.

Jeff

The Fortress
April 26th, 2010, 03:30 PM
First, I'll say a DQ can put quite a damper on a meet (unless you are Wally - when he gets DQd he just shrugs his shoulders and says it makes up for the times when he didn't get caught!).

I agree you didn't take 2 full pulls and 2 full kicks. But would it have made you feel any better if he responded to your question with, "you are right - you only took one kick but you took two pulls so the DQ still stands." I'm not sure I understand what your intention was with protesting the wording on the DQ slip.

Whether you did an illegal pullout or not, it was certainly suspicious to go almost to the (second) flags with your pullout so that's probably a lesson learned to not draw that kind of attention in the future. I'm sorry about the DQ but glad it didn't ruin your meet.

Jeff

I did not do an illegal pullout. And I didn't take 2 pulls either. I was up by the widest part of the second pull. What's wrong with long pullouts anyway? Plus, when I grilled him, he said it was on the second length, not the first. I didn't make it to the second set of flags on the second length. I'm not changing my pullout b/c of a bad DQ call, so no lesson learned. I will persevere; however, I will try to eliminate the depth of the pullout and the dead spots.

Officials are supposed to write DQs to the wording of the rules. The meet ref could have overturned the DQ on this basis if he was inclined to. I didn't expect him to however.

And, no it didn't ruin my meet.

You're talking about Wally? The guy who at Y Nats was DQ'd on the 200 breast, said "are you f-ing kidding me?!" and was ejected from the rest of the meet after his first event? lol Neill told me he usually gets the one handed deeks. But he has those lightening fast evil turns that I don't have.

Allen Stark
April 26th, 2010, 03:45 PM
Fort,reading how you described your pullout on your blog I wonder if the ref saw your out scull you did to make the Dolphin legal and counted it as the first pull,the dolphin as the firs kick,then the pulldown as the second pull and the frog kick as the second kick.He would still be wrong,but it would be logical.
That got me wondering:question to you turn judges,if you are going to dolphin before the pulldown the hands must start moving before the dolphin kick,but then they stop during the kick,so could this slight outsweep accurately be considered a separate pull?

ElaineK
April 26th, 2010, 03:48 PM
Thanks.It's going to be fun.
Let me know what heat you are in so I can watch.

Uh, well, hmmmm... :blush: Do a "Swimmer Lookup" under "Krugman" and you will see how bad it really is! You'll find me in the outside lane in the slowwwwest heats... :blush::blush:

But, I have to start somewhere, right? I just joined in February and had not competed for 31 years, until my first Masters meet in March. I have a long way to go to get anywhere near my 1:19.6 PB for the 100 yd. breaststroke, in high school!

I can't pass up Nationals, though; it's only 45 minutes away from my house! :D And, it will be FUN! :bliss:

So, Allen, I appreciate your interest to watch my races, but I can't guarantee it will be a pretty sight! :afraid:

pwolf66
April 26th, 2010, 03:49 PM
I'm not sure I understand what your intention was with protesting the wording on the DQ slip.

Jeff,

The responsibility of the official who writes up the disqualification, be it the Stroke and Turn or the Referee is to 'write to the rule'. There should be no ambiguities with regards to what rule the swimmer failed to adhere to. And to make it clear, *I* was the one who suggested to take a look a the DQ slip and *I* was the one who viewed the write up as ambiguous as it relates to the breaststroke stroke rules. If you have a problem with that, please take it up with me and we can further discuss the rules and how they are intended to be applied.

ElaineK
April 26th, 2010, 03:55 PM
hey Elaine-iaK,

thank you for your kind words about Swim Faster Faster.
The tips work, they've worked for many who tried & applied them. They've also worked for me, I'm my own guinea pig, they've helped me swim faster now than I did 5 years ago. Some provide instant gratification with instant improvement, (especially for beginners & rebeginners, those who are back after a long hiatus) some take a while, but they work.

I hope to turn them into a book. I decided to put the info on the web, so folks could use it, rather than just let it sit on my hard drive for just me & the few I talk to.

I want you to swim faster faster, even breastrokers.

Ande

Well, I suggested in the past that you write a book and I still hope you do. I will be your first customer; but I want an autographed copy, OK? ;)

P.S. Breaststroke may be the slowest stroke, but it's mighty! Right Allen??? :applaud:

The Fortress
April 26th, 2010, 03:57 PM
Fort,reading how you described your pullout on your blog I wonder if the ref saw your out scull you did to make the Dolphin legal and counted it as the first pull,the dolphin as the firs kick,then the pulldown as the second pull and the frog kick as the second kick.He would still be wrong,but it would be logical.
That got me wondering:question to you turn judges,if you are going to dolphin before the pulldown the hands must start moving before the dolphin kick,but then they stop during the kick,so could this slight outsweep accurately be considered a separate pull?

No, that wasn't it either. I also specifically asked the S&T/Ref if this was what he was calling. He said no. I think one has to be careful when separating the hands, but I was.

Karen Duggan
April 26th, 2010, 03:58 PM
Leslie- your 2nd pullout was almost to the second flags in a 100 breast?
If you could, would you get someone to video that next time you swim it? I am curious to see this. :agree:
Thanks!

The Fortress
April 26th, 2010, 04:00 PM
Leslie- your 2nd pullout was almost to the second flags in a 100 breast?
If you could, would you get someone to video that next time you swim it? I am curious to see this. :agree:
Thanks!

No, definitely not. It was my first length with a dive. Someone did video my 50 breast where I did the same thing. I'll put it up on my blog at some point. I'm not sure it was really quite that far though. Maybe more like 18 meters?

Karen Duggan
April 26th, 2010, 04:05 PM
18 meters? That's why you got DQd. The rule is 15 meters :D

SwimStud
April 26th, 2010, 04:05 PM
OK I watched Leslie's pullout as I had a vested interest in beating her down.
She didn't do anything wrong except for the ugly head pop up that has been done by all breaststrokers at some point...

Dive. Hands parted SDK. Pulldown, slow hand recovery to streamline and kick...then the jerked up head.

From the block side of the pool it looked fine...possibly Les could have not broken the surface before the insweep, but that is not what was said, and only the bare tip of the head needs to break not the face. Leslie threw her head up to avoid that and it was noticeable.

Her pullout was wicked long and the one off the turn not that much shorter.

She got ripped off and 1st, 2nd WR, NR, ZR or DFL. It was the wrong call. Leslie has no choice but to accept it. Of course it's one of about 3 events that nobody taped.

The Fortress
April 26th, 2010, 04:09 PM
18 meters? That's why you got DQd. The rule is 15 meters :D

Not in breaststroke!

jroddin
April 26th, 2010, 04:11 PM
You're talking about Wally? The guy who at Y Nats was DQ'd on the 200 breast, said "are you f-ing kidding me?!" and was ejected from the rest of the meet after his first event? lol

It sounds like you heard this story passed down through too many tellings. It wasn't Y Nats (it was USMS Nats in 1997). It wasn't after his first event (it was on the last day after his last ind event). He was ejected for cursing, however, so that part is true. In my post I was referring to him getting DQd two or three times at the Albatross over the years and just shrugging those off.

I'm sorry for assuming the alleged infraction took place on the first length. I never heard any details of the DQ but I did see your first length so that is what I thought happened. That's what happens when you make assumptions I guess! My apologies.

Wolfy - it really doesn't matter to me who made the protest, that wasn't my question. I was simply asking Fort how she would have felt if the judge said she took one kick and two pulls and then edited the DQ slip accordingly. Would that have made her feel any better?

Poor Ande's thread has been completely hijacked!

poolraat
April 26th, 2010, 04:13 PM
I'm not sure I understand what your intention was with protesting the wording on the DQ slip.

As an official, I have seen many instances where a DQ was protested and overturned on the basis of an incorrectly written DQ slip. Therefore it is always worth the effort to protest on this basis. Especially if the swimmer is sure that he/she did a legal swim.

The Fortress
April 26th, 2010, 04:14 PM
It sounds like you heard this story passed down through too many tellings. It wasn't Y Nats (it was USMS Nats in 1997). It wasn't after his first event (it was on the last day after his last ind event). He was ejected for cursing, however, so that part is true. In my post I was referring to him getting DQd two or three times at the Albatross over the years and just shrugging those off.

I'm sorry for assuming the alleged infraction took place on the first length. I never heard any details of the DQ but I did see your first length so that is what I thought happened. That's what happens when you make assumptions I guess! My apologies.

Wolfy - it really doesn't matter to me who made the protest, that wasn't my question. I was simply asking Fort how she would have felt if the judge said she took one kick and two pulls and then edited the DQ slip accordingly. Would that have made her feel any better?

Poor Ande's thread has been completely hijacked!

I heard it from his wife!

Ande's thread is not hijacked. We're discussing evil pulldowns and how to do them properly and also now to avoid DQs.

Uh, if an S&T judge says the DQ is for X and then changes his/her mind and says the DQ was for Y (and, oh, yeah, I guess maybe I didn't see X), a Ref tosses out that DQ slip. They have to be certain and specific on a call. The S&T didn't even indicate what length it was on on the DQ slip, which you are supposed to. I had to ask him. He messed up; it happens.

Yes, Floyd, the meet ref could have done that if he was so inclined.

Karen Duggan
April 26th, 2010, 04:44 PM
Not in breaststroke!

A thousand pardons great one. I keep forgetting that!

The Fortress
April 26th, 2010, 04:47 PM
A thousand pardons great one. I keep forgetting that!

This rule make me very happy. I wish there was no 15 meter rule for any stroke actually!

Chris Stevenson
April 26th, 2010, 05:22 PM
This rule make me very happy. I wish there was no 15 meter rule for any stroke actually!

I'll go on the other side of this: I wish there was a 15m rule in breaststroke but that they allowed as many dolphin kicks as a person wants. Since the judges can't seem to call this correctly.

I guess I just need patience: if Kitajima is in the next Olympics, I'm sure they'll relax the rules again.

Failing that, I wish they didn't allow ANY dolphin kicks (and were strict about it).

That Guy
April 26th, 2010, 05:54 PM
I'll go on the other side of this: I wish there was a 15m rule in breaststroke but that they allowed as many dolphin kicks as a person wants. Since the judges can't seem to call this correctly.

I'd like that since I'd be much more competitive in breastroke events. Well, short course anyway...



:censor: :censor: :censor: :censor: :censor:

Oh. I see. Chris, they want us to leave their thread now. We've overstayed our welcome. Hey, we can post stuff in the Women's Locker Room instead! :banana:

pwolf66
April 26th, 2010, 06:52 PM
18 meters? That's why you got DQd. The rule is 15 meters :D

No, Karen, it's not. Breaststroke is the only stroke that does not have a 15m rule.

pwolf66
April 26th, 2010, 07:17 PM
Wolfy - it really doesn't matter to me who made the protest, that wasn't my question. I was simply asking Fort how she would have felt if the judge said she took one kick and two pulls and then edited the DQ slip accordingly. Would that have made her feel any better?

Editing a DQ slip? Are you serious?

If there is any doubt about the veracity of a call then that DQ should get pocketed by the ref 10 out of 10 times. And I have done just that on many occasions.

With regards to reviewing the slip and portesting based upon how the slip was written, you are missing the point which was that '2 complete cycles underwater' does not outline which of the defined (and this is THE key here) stroke rules were violated.

There are rules for all strokes but there are also rules on how those stroke rules are enforced.

jroddin
April 26th, 2010, 08:35 PM
Paul - I have no experience with DQs - either from an officiating standpoint or receiving them. So that is why I was asking naive questions. My analogy is let's say you get caught speeding. The cop says you were going 70 in a 55 zone and you ask, "are you sure I wasn't going 65?" If he says, "ok, yes, my mistake you were only going 65." You're still busted so why ask the question? I guess I got hung up with why Fort asked if the official wasn't confused and perhaps it was only one kick but two pulls (since two pulls is still illegal). But now I see you are saying if they change their story it is grounds for dismissal. I did not know that but now I do. Thanks for the clarification.

Jeff

The Fortress
April 26th, 2010, 08:41 PM
Paul - I have no experience with DQs - either from an officiating standpoint or receiving them. So that is why I was asking naive questions. My analogy is let's say you get caught speeding. The cop says you were going 70 in a 55 zone and you ask, "are you sure I wasn't going 65?" If he says, "ok, yes, my mistake you were only going 65." You're still busted so why ask the question? I guess I got hung up with why Fort asked if the official wasn't confused and perhaps it was only one kick but two pulls (since two pulls is still illegal). But now I see you are saying if they change their story it is grounds for dismissal. I did not know that but now I do. Thanks for the clarification.

Jeff

I shouldn't have been DQ'd on your hypothesized subsumed basis either.

And in this case it is irrelevant since the official stuck with his story that I took 2 breaststroke kicks.

pwolf66
April 26th, 2010, 08:51 PM
Paul - I have no experience with DQs - either from an officiating standpoint or receiving them. So that is why I was asking naive questions. My analogy is let's say you get caught speeding. The cop says you were going 70 in a 55 zone and you ask, "are you sure I wasn't going 65?" If he says, "ok, yes, my mistake you were only going 65." You're still busted so why ask the question? I guess I got hung up with why Fort asked if the official wasn't confused and perhaps it was only one kick but two pulls (since two pulls is still illegal). But now I see you are saying if they change their story it is grounds for dismissal. I did not know that but now I do. Thanks for the clarification.

Jeff

It's more like, you get caught speeding but the officer doesn't fill out the ticket correctly, say by putting the incorrect street or time of day or incorrect day of the week. You go to court and it will get thrown out if the error in filling out the ticket is identified. It's goes to reasonable doubt and even more so in swimming, it's benefit of the doubt to the swimmer.

Midas
April 26th, 2010, 10:25 PM
All of this is why I have gone back to doing my dolphin kick near the end of my pulldown. There are judges out there that seem to have it in for anybody that appears to benefit from doing the dolphin kick at the beginning of the pulldown. It's not worth it.

This is also a reason why I'm happy to see the speed suits go. Nobody will be going 18 meters underwater on their second length pulldown without one of those suckers on (unless they are going VERY slowly).

The Fortress
April 26th, 2010, 10:44 PM
All of this is why I have gone back to doing my dolphin kick near the end of my pulldown. There are judges out there that seem to have it in for anybody that appears to benefit from doing the dolphin kick at the beginning of the pulldown. It's not worth it.

This is also a reason why I'm happy to see the speed suits go. Nobody will be going 18 meters underwater on their second length pulldown without one of those suckers on (unless they are going VERY slowly).

One person's caution is another person's risk taking ... I choose the latter course.

And I didn't go 18 meters on the second length, as you would have seen if you had read the prior posts more carefully. It was the first 25. But are you so sure of your assertion? I swam 2 50s frees this weekend at the end of each day, one in a B70 and one in a kneeskin. Only .1 difference. The pre-kick in evil makes a difference for risk taking dolphin kickers.

Calvin S
April 26th, 2010, 11:16 PM
I always scope out the officials ahead of time to see if I am seeded nearest the official who doesn't seem to be paying attention (I swim at a lot of USA-S meets with younger kids, and the officials a lot of times are busy watching their kids race and not the lanes they are in charge of). If i draw the official with his/her head in the clouds, I will work in a second (I have been known to sneak in a third on a few occasions) just for the extra speed.

Yes, I guess since it is against the rulebook, it is "cheating", but I always see "cheating" in our sport is more using performance enhancing drugs (and, dare I say it, "suits"). I see myself bending an already ludicrous rule which was better left alone. Lets see, an olympian does an illegal pullout, wins gold, and then FINA turns around and legalizes what the swimmer did. I was fine without the dolphin kick.

Allen Stark
April 26th, 2010, 11:23 PM
I always scope out the officials ahead of time to see if I am seeded nearest the official who doesn't seem to be paying attention (I swim at a lot of USA-S meets with younger kids, and the officials a lot of times are busy watching their kids race and not the lanes they are in charge of). If i draw the official with his/her head in the clouds, I will work in a second (I have been known to sneak in a third on a few occasions) just for the extra speed.

Yes, I guess since it is against the rulebook, it is "cheating", but I always see "cheating" in our sport is more using performance enhancing drugs (and, dare I say it, "suits"). I see myself bending an already ludicrous rule which was better left alone. Lets see, an olympian does an illegal pullout, wins gold, and then FINA turns around and legalizes what the swimmer did. I was fine without the dolphin kick.
I'm sorry,but deliberately breaking the rules to gain an advantage is wrong.The fact Olympic officials are gutless and FINA is complicit doesn't make it right.

ViveBene
April 27th, 2010, 07:03 AM
Allen, I think you posted links to some good-form BR videos in other threads. Could you please repost the links here, so I can find them again?
Thanks, Marjorie
:)

aquageek
April 27th, 2010, 08:21 AM
Editing a DQ slip? Are you serious?

If there is any doubt about the veracity of a call then that DQ should get pocketed by the ref 10 out of 10 times. And I have done just that on many occasions.

With regards to reviewing the slip and portesting based upon how the slip was written, you are missing the point which was that '2 complete cycles underwater' does not outline which of the defined (and this is THE key here) stroke rules were violated.

There are rules for all strokes but there are also rules on how those stroke rules are enforced.

I agree. I actually had a DQ slip I wrote rejected because the DQ slip on top of it "bled through" (they are carbon) thus making the DQ slip a bit confusing.

The rules are pretty clear on strokes. If it takes some sort of editing or re-explanation or nuanced call, it probably shouldn't be a DQ.

Calvin S
April 27th, 2010, 08:33 AM
I'm sorry,but deliberately breaking the rules to gain an advantage is wrong.The fact Olympic officials are gutless and FINA is complicit doesn't make it right.

don't worry I will be playing by the rules at Nats!

pdjang
April 27th, 2010, 09:01 AM
From the USMS Rule book 101.2.3 breaststroke kick:

"After the start and after each turn, a single butterfly (dolphin) kick,
which must be followed by a breaststroke kick, is permitted during or at the completion of the first arm pull, following which, all movements of the legs shall be simultaneous and in the same horizontal plane without alternating movement."

Interestingly the rule allows for some variation in sequence. For the start and the turn, it does not state when the arm pull takes place.

Question: are the following sequences legal?

a. arm pull, dolphin kick, breaststroke kick
b. dolphin kick, arm pull, breaststroke kick

Thanks,

ElaineK
April 27th, 2010, 10:04 AM
I'm sorry,but deliberately breaking the rules to gain an advantage is wrong.The fact Olympic officials are gutless and FINA is complicit doesn't make it right.

I agree- it's cheating :bitching: !! It's not fair to those you're competing against who are doing it by the book- even if it's a non-Nationals meet...

Chris Stevenson
April 27th, 2010, 10:38 AM
Question: are the following sequences legal?

a. arm pull, dolphin kick, breaststroke kick
b. dolphin kick, arm pull, breaststroke kick

Thanks,

Yes, both are legal...sort of. For option B, you need to START the arm pull before you do the dolphin kick. "Starting the arm pull" might just mean letting go of the hand-on-hand streamline position and letting your hands separate a little bit.

I agree with Midas that option B might make a DQ call a little more likely (though I disagree with him that judges "have it in" for anybody...I just think it is a hard call to make, and some judges pull the trigger more easily than others). You also might forget to separate your hands before the dolphin kick, or you might have a little "recoil" on the pull-down that is mistaken for a second dolphin kick.

It may well be that that "recoil" is the reason that they began allowing the single dolphin kick in the first place: it was too hard to distinguish it from an true/intentional kick.

pdjang
April 27th, 2010, 11:33 AM
Yes, both are legal...sort of. For option B, you need to START the arm pull before you do the dolphin kick. "Starting the arm pull" might just mean letting go of the hand-on-hand streamline position and letting your hands separate a little bit.

I agree with Midas that option B might make a DQ call a little more likely (though I disagree with him that judges "have it in" for anybody...I just think it is a hard call to make, and some judges pull the trigger more easily than others). You also might forget to separate your hands before the dolphin kick, or you might have a little "recoil" on the pull-down that is mistaken for a second dolphin kick.

It may well be that that "recoil" is the reason that they began allowing the single dolphin kick in the first place: it was too hard to distinguish it from an true/intentional kick.

Would you think there would be a difference in efficiency between the sequences?

I did not - but my simple experiments (with sample size of 1) seems to point to a substantial difference in the distance traveled between the two sequences. I have not measured time to a point but I think the result would be non-intuitive.

Chris Stevenson
April 27th, 2010, 11:56 AM
Would you think there would be a difference in efficiency between the sequences?

I did not - but my simple experiments (with sample size of 1) seems to point to a substantial difference in the distance traveled between the two sequences. I have not measured time to a point but I think the result would be non-intuitive.

I did some informal experiments on my own, and didn't find a big difference. (Not worth what I see as the increased risk of DQ, anyway.)

The other issue is that doing the dolphin first may extend the time underwater by delaying the initial arm pull. Since I only swim breaststroke during an IM, that's not always desirable for me by that point in a race. The additional oxygen debt may cut down any extra effectiveness of the dolphin first pullout.

But, look: I am as far from a breaststroke expert as it is possible to be. :) About the only thing I have going for me is that all of it is rather new to me, and I'm game for trying anything. Others may have different (and better) opinions.

aztimm
April 27th, 2010, 12:26 PM
don't worry I will be playing by the rules at Nats!

Shouldn't you be, "playing by the rules," whenever you swim in any meet? Hearing things like this disgust me to the point of canceling my USMS membership--if I didn't need it just to swim with my team.

Yes I can see the occasional mishap, even I dove in once or twice and almost went into freestyle before remembering it was a breast event. Pushing the rules is one thing, but deliberately breaking them (multiple times) is another.

Just another reason to add to my long laundry list of why I don't swim in meets anymore.

tjburk
April 27th, 2010, 12:42 PM
That is how some people can get DQ'd...they separate the hands to start the pull...then dolphin kick...then put hands almost back together...and start their pull again...some have observed this as a double pull...even though it could be only one...once the hands separate and start the pull they should continue in one motion...that is why the rule says "during or at the end of..." if you stop your pull to dolphin kick...you have completely one cycle of pull and kick...

Which is why I agree with you on this Chris...get rid of the Dolphin kick and the tech suits and let's swim...


Yes, both are legal...sort of. For option B, you need to START the arm pull before you do the dolphin kick. "Starting the arm pull" might just mean letting go of the hand-on-hand streamline position and letting your hands separate a little bit.

I agree with Midas that option B might make a DQ call a little more likely (though I disagree with him that judges "have it in" for anybody...I just think it is a hard call to make, and some judges pull the trigger more easily than others). You also might forget to separate your hands before the dolphin kick, or you might have a little "recoil" on the pull-down that is mistaken for a second dolphin kick.

It may well be that that "recoil" is the reason that they began allowing the single dolphin kick in the first place: it was too hard to distinguish it from an true/intentional kick.

Thrashing Slug
April 27th, 2010, 01:56 PM
Shouldn't you be, "playing by the rules," whenever you swim in any meet? Hearing things like this disgust me to the point of canceling my USMS membership--if I didn't need it just to swim with my team.

He cheats at Masters swimming. A true loser, who has now dishonored himself publicly in an attempt at I don't know what - gloating? What an idiot. I wouldn't waste any extra brain cycles on him, just keep your membership and enoy swimming with your team.

Karen Duggan
April 27th, 2010, 02:01 PM
I know of someone of great renown in our sport who swam an entire 50 br LCM and did fly kick the entire way. He was in the middle lane, and there was a bet beforehand whether he would get DQd or not. I bet him a beer he'd get DQd b/c there was no way an official could miss that.
I owed him a beer.

He won. Afterwards he went to the officials and told them what he did, so the guy who got 2nd would get 1st. The officials told him to go away.

It's lame to intentionally cheat in the first place, but even worse when the officials are that bad.

(BTW, I do appreciate the time officials devote to our sport- not the point).

aquageek
April 27th, 2010, 02:06 PM
Just another reason to add to my long laundry list of why I don't swim in meets anymore.

What are the rest of the items on that list, out of curiosity.

ElaineK
April 27th, 2010, 03:25 PM
Which is why I agree with you on this Chris...get rid of the Dolphin kick and the tech suits and let's swim...

:applaud::applaud::applaud:

Muppet
April 27th, 2010, 11:51 PM
Not a breaststroker, but in the 100 breast, I've gone from 1:15 (Apr '09) to 1:12 (Sept '09) to 1:11 (Apr '10) in the last year. I will confess I hadn't really swum much breaststroke in meets until the last 18 months, but practice times had been pretty stagnant up until that point. One of our coaches (a breaststroker himself) noticed I sucked and after he spent a bit of time tinkering with it, we started seeing some time improvements. Plus, recent infatuations with IM necessitated more work on the BR.

Biggest thing I'd like to share with the group is head position. Since I've always kinda sucked at this, I've tinkered with several head positions over the years, but keeping my head in line with my spine, always looking down really helped my wave-like motion and helped keep my hips up, thus creating less drag and more speed in my stroke.

Allen Stark
April 28th, 2010, 12:32 AM
Not a breaststroker, but in the 100 breast, I've gone from 1:15 (Apr '09) to 1:12 (Sept '09) to 1:11 (Apr '10) in the last year. I will confess I hadn't really swum much breaststroke in meets until the last 18 months, but practice times had been pretty stagnant up until that point. One of our coaches (a breaststroker himself) noticed I sucked and after he spent a bit of time tinkering with it, we started seeing some time improvements. Plus, recent infatuations with IM necessitated more work on the BR.

Biggest thing I'd like to share with the group is head position. Since I've always kinda sucked at this, I've tinkered with several head positions over the years, but keeping my head in line with my spine, always looking down really helped my wave-like motion and helped keep my hips up, thus creating less drag and more speed in my stroke.
After years of swimming BR with my head facing forward before the 1986 rule change I find keeping my head neutral requires constant attention,but it is one of the key parts of the "modern breaststroke".I consider the other key to be recovering the feet without bending at the hips.If you do both it fairly automatically leads to undulation.
The other points I focus on in every practice and before a race are keeping my elbows in front of my shoulders at all times,getting my feet up to my rear on the kick recovery,getting my feet turned out so my toes face the side of the pool at the catch,and getting my deltoids pressed tightly against my ears through the kick/glide to maximize streamlining.
Another important tip is to accelerate the pull from catch through the recovery so that it is a continuous movement.I like to say that BR doesn't have a recovery as the recovery is a continuous part of the pull.I see many Masters swimming BR pause at the end of the insweep before the recovery getting them caught in the dreaded"prayer position" which just stops your momentum.

knelson
April 28th, 2010, 01:58 AM
Yes, I guess since it is against the rulebook, it is "cheating", but I always see "cheating" in our sport is more using performance enhancing drugs

Sorry, but you don't get to decide which rules are the important ones and which are not.

pdjang
April 28th, 2010, 10:24 AM
After years of swimming BR with my head facing forward before the 1986 rule change I find keeping my head neutral requires constant attention,but it is one of the key parts of the "modern breaststroke".I consider the other key to be recovering the feet without bending at the hips.If you do both it fairly automatically leads to undulation.
The other points I focus on in every practice and before a race are keeping my elbows in front of my shoulders at all times,getting my feet up to my rear on the kick recovery,getting my feet turned out so my toes face the side of the pool at the catch,and getting my deltoids pressed tightly against my ears through the kick/glide to maximize streamlining.
Another important tip is to accelerate the pull from catch through the recovery so that it is a continuous movement.I like to say that BR doesn't have a recovery as the recovery is a continuous part of the pull.I see many Masters swimming BR pause at the end of the insweep before the recovery getting them caught in the dreaded"prayer position" which just stops your momentum.

Breaststroke is my slowest and weakest stroke (for my IM) so it is something that I always work on. Alan makes excellent points.

A great web resource is Wayne McCauley's breaststroke guide:
http://www.breaststroke.info/

ElaineK
April 28th, 2010, 02:24 PM
After years of swimming BR with my head facing forward before the 1986 rule change I find keeping my head neutral requires constant attention,but it is one of the key parts of the "modern breaststroke".I consider the other key to be recovering the feet without bending at the hips.If you do both it fairly automatically leads to undulation.
The other points I focus on in every practice and before a race are keeping my elbows in front of my shoulders at all times,getting my feet up to my rear on the kick recovery,getting my feet turned out so my toes face the side of the pool at the catch,and getting my deltoids pressed tightly against my ears through the kick/glide to maximize streamlining.
Another important tip is to accelerate the pull from catch through the recovery so that it is a continuous movement.I like to say that BR doesn't have a recovery as the recovery is a continuous part of the pull.I see many Masters swimming BR pause at the end of the insweep before the recovery getting them caught in the dreaded"prayer position" which just stops your momentum.

Allen, your tips are going on my dive slate right next to my workouts, so I can review them during each session. I keep my slate right next to my water at the edge, so I can review it throughout my swim. These are all great things to remember- thanks! :applaud:

mpmartin
April 28th, 2010, 11:57 PM
Since we're discussing breaststroke. I have a question about repeat times:
If I want to do a 1:10 in a 100 yard race, what time do I have to swim in repeats? Right now I can't get under 1:30 for 100's on 2:00.

Ahelee Sue Osborn
April 29th, 2010, 01:55 PM
Since we're discussing breaststroke. I have a question about repeat times:
If I want to do a 1:10 in a 100 yard race, what time do I have to swim in repeats? Right now I can't get under 1:30 for 100's on 2:00.

Chris The Great has a "Practice Pace" sheet posted on his blog that addresses this question well according to his coach. I like it too.

http://forums.usms.org/blog.php?b=842

Karen Duggan
April 29th, 2010, 03:11 PM
Chris- I hope to God that your pace chart is right! Looking at my goal for my 200 I have been doing it right according to your chart, thankfully. Someone told me I needed to be 2 seconds faster per 50 in w/out and I haven't been able to do it yet!
Time (ha ha) will tell.
:afraid:

thewookiee
April 29th, 2010, 03:27 PM
Shouldn't you be, "playing by the rules," whenever you swim in any meet? Hearing things like this disgust me to the point of canceling my USMS membership--if I didn't need it just to swim with my team.

.

Just another reason to add to my long laundry list of why I don't swim in meets anymore.

One should also be looking at just how far the rules can be pushed too. Find the breaking point, then step back just a bit from it.

You can swim on your own, then you wouldn't need a membership.

Karen Duggan
April 29th, 2010, 03:56 PM
That being said, now all of the officials will probably make sure to watch Calvin's swims a little more carefully. :D

thewookiee
April 29th, 2010, 04:04 PM
That being said, now all of the officials will probably make sure to watch Calvin's swims a little more carefully. :D

Naw, he will still try to sneak in some extra kicks. The tech pool is wider than most pools, deep, and big lane lines. He will be able to cheat in the middle of the pool.

:angel:

Chris Stevenson
April 29th, 2010, 04:50 PM
Chris- I hope to God that your pace chart is right! Looking at my goal for my 200 I have been doing it right according to your chart, thankfully. Someone told me I needed to be 2 seconds faster per 50 in w/out and I haven't been able to do it yet!
Time (ha ha) will tell.
:afraid:

I have found it to be pretty accurate. I find it pretty useful for training for the 200, you need to be confident that your "cruising speed" is at the desired pace. (Otherwise I tend to get nervous and take it out too fast.)

Karen Duggan
April 29th, 2010, 04:57 PM
Yea, confidence is at an all time low for me w/breaststroke right now.
I guess I took for granted a natural feeling for it (used to go 35-36s and thought nothing of it). I'm thinking something of it now! If I go a 39 I'm thrilled. :badday:

I'm just waiting for something to click again. I have had so many people trying to help me, unfortunately they can't help me "feel" the water...

Ahelee Sue Osborn
April 29th, 2010, 05:19 PM
they can't help me "feel" the water...

Karen!

I listened to Jon Urbanchek yesterday describe this as "being one with the water".

I know you guys all laugh at me about meditation and all my hippie - Northern California - San Francisco stuff, but I do think there is a difference.

A lot of junk and dirty business have to fall away to let yourself be one with the water. No easy task, but the great swimmers do it.

Karen Duggan
April 29th, 2010, 05:27 PM
Yep, no one has ever called me great. :agree:

ElaineK
April 29th, 2010, 07:30 PM
After years of swimming BR with my head facing forward before the 1986 rule change I find keeping my head neutral requires constant attention,but it is one of the key parts of the "modern breaststroke".I consider the other key to be recovering the feet without bending at the hips.If you do both it fairly automatically leads to undulation.
The other points I focus on in every practice and before a race are keeping my elbows in front of my shoulders at all times,getting my feet up to my rear on the kick recovery,getting my feet turned out so my toes face the side of the pool at the catch,and getting my deltoids pressed tightly against my ears through the kick/glide to maximize streamlining.
Another important tip is to accelerate the pull from catch through the recovery so that it is a continuous movement.I like to say that BR doesn't have a recovery as the recovery is a continuous part of the pull.I see many Masters swimming BR pause at the end of the insweep before the recovery getting them caught in the dreaded"prayer position" which just stops your momentum.

Hey Allen, YOUR TIPS WORKED OUT GREAT! :applaud: Like I said I would do, I wrote your tips on my slate and read them before a timed 200 breaststroke (in pool start). Not only did I take 3 seconds off my time; I felt like I had more energy left in the tank. Keeping my elbows in front of my shoulders made it feel like it was taking LESS EFFORT. Between that and keeping my head neutral I could feel my body position change in the water for the better.

The entire remainder of my workout went better, because of the changes I made in my stroke. I had more energy, because my stroke was more efficient. :banana: :bliss:

THANKS!!! :D

Allen Stark
April 29th, 2010, 08:35 PM
Here is another tip:Shoot your hands FORWARD on the recovery ,not up and especially not down.It doesn't matter if your hands are above the surface,at the surface or under it,the important thing is that they are in line with the body as you streamline.Many people(myself included all too often) angle their arms down to increase undulation.Just like moving the arms up and down in SDK to increase undulation it is not only unnecessary it breaks streamline and slows you down.

ElaineK
April 29th, 2010, 09:40 PM
Here is another tip:Shoot your hands FORWARD on the recovery ,not up and especially not down.It doesn't matter if your hands are above the surface,at the surface or under it,the important thing is that they are in line with the body as you streamline.Many people(myself included all too often) angle their arms down to increase undulation.Just like moving the arms up and down in SDK to increase undulation it is not only unnecessary it breaks streamline and slows you down.

Allen, thanks for another tip! I think this is one I don't have too much problem doing, though. I just can't seem to get the wave style breaststroke going; mine is quite flat. So, I think my arms are going straight forward, because of this.

One thing I've been wondering about, though: Due to past MAJOR shoulder surgery and nerve damage from thoracic outlet syndrome, I've been advised to avoid a wide outsweep to save my shoulders for the long haul. And, I do hope to be one of those old gals still competing into my 90's! :cane::D So, my "outsweep" is more like an oval shape, keeping my forearms inside my elbows throughout the entire stroke. It's either swim this way or not at all... So, how limited do you think I will be with this style of breaststroke? I would like to work my way back up to the equivalent of where I was in high school. At the time, I swam a 1:19.6, 100yd breasstroke with no stroke coaching (My coach was a P.E. teacher who didn't know how to swim! :afraid:) In the current Motivational Times chart, that would put me between "AA" and "AAA". So, that is my goal now, for my current 45-49 age group classification. At last weekend's meet, my 100 breaststroke was 1:31.89. I have a long way to go to make my goal category for each breaststroke event, but it's my goal and I'm sticking to it! :D Will a narrow stroke hold me back? I'm working on getting everything else right!

I would appreciate anybody's opinion on this, so fire away. Just be nice! :D

swimmj
April 29th, 2010, 09:45 PM
Yea, confidence is at an all time low for me w/breaststroke right now.
I guess I took for granted a natural feeling for it (used to go 35-36s and thought nothing of it). I'm thinking something of it now! If I go a 39 I'm thrilled. :badday:

I'm just waiting for something to click again. I have had so many people trying to help me, unfortunately they can't help me "feel" the water...

Sculling is great for developing a feel for the water. Scull with fingertips down, arms above the head while laying on your tummy, kick lightly if needed to keep a neutral body position. Also, mid point sculling - elbows under shoulders, again fingertips down. Relax and don't worry about going slow - if you are going slow you will feel it better when you "catch" the water.

Allen Stark
April 29th, 2010, 10:19 PM
Allen, thanks for another tip! I think this is one I don't have too much problem doing, though. I just can't seem to get the wave style breaststroke going; mine is quite flat. So, I think my arms are going straight forward, because of this.

One thing I've been wondering about, though: Due to past MAJOR shoulder surgery and nerve damage from thoracic outlet syndrome, I've been advised to avoid a wide outsweep to save my shoulders for the long haul. And, I do hope to be one of those old gals still competing into my 90's! :cane::D So, my "outsweep" is more like an oval shape, keeping my forearms inside my elbows throughout the entire stroke. It's either swim this way or not at all... So, how limited do you think I will be with this style of breaststroke? I would like to work my way back up to the equivalent of where I was in high school. At the time, I swam a 1:19.6, 100yd breasstroke with no stroke coaching (My coach was a P.E. teacher who didn't know how to swim! :afraid:) In the current Motivational Times chart, that would put me between "AA" and "AAA". So, that is my goal now, for my current 45-49 age group classification. At last weekend's meet, my 100 breaststroke was 1:31.89. I have a long way to go to make my goal category for each breaststroke event, but it's my goal and I'm sticking to it! :D Will a narrow stroke hold me back? I'm working on getting everything else right!

I would appreciate anybody's opinion on this, so fire away. Just be nice! :D

Watch some video of Rebecca Soni.Her pull is not narrow like yours has to be but she has practically no insweep and is blazing fast.If she can do it so can you,just really focus in getting everything from your pull that you can without hurting yourself but also use your kick and timing and you'll be fine.

Midas
April 30th, 2010, 01:10 AM
Watch some video of Rebecca Soni.Her pull is not narrow like yours has to be but she has practically no insweep and is blazing fast.If she can do it so can you,just really focus in getting everything from your pull that you can without hurting yourself but also use your kick and timing and you'll be fine.

I never noticed that before. You're absolutely right. She outsweeps and then lunges. I gotta try that!

Knightswimmer2
April 30th, 2010, 09:37 AM
Question out there for anyone that could have some good advice. My breaststroke has kind of fallen apart since December, my timing feels off and I cant get a good tempo going. I know a major part of it is my pullouts which I need to work on big time. But one thing I really want to work on right now is fixing the timing of my stroke, so if anyone knows any good drills for this that would be very helpful. I know about fly kick, br arms...Just wanted to see if there was anything else out there that I could use during practice.

Peter Cruise
April 30th, 2010, 12:45 PM
Matt, I always find a 2 kicks 1 pull drill useful for timing, don't know exactly why it works but it does for me.

jonblank
April 30th, 2010, 01:05 PM
P.S. Breaststroke may be the slowest stroke, but it's mighty!Right???:applaud:

Agree that breaststroke is mighty, but disagree that it's the slowest stroke. You've obviously never seen my backstroke. JB

Jimbosback
April 30th, 2010, 03:00 PM
Question out there for anyone that could have some good advice. My breaststroke has kind of fallen apart since December, my timing feels off and I cant get a good tempo going. I know a major part of it is my pullouts which I need to work on big time. But one thing I really want to work on right now is fixing the timing of my stroke, so if anyone knows any good drills for this that would be very helpful. I know about fly kick, br arms...Just wanted to see if there was anything else out there that I could use during practice.


Try swimming underwater breaststroke for 25s. I forget who suggested it to me here, but it has really helped my stroke. You can feel the dead spots in your stroke and see yourself slow down by watching the tiles go by. I count my pulls to measure improvement, and I am now doing the 25s in half the pulls from when I started.

Justin Ritter
April 30th, 2010, 04:50 PM
Matt, I always find a 2 kicks 1 pull drill useful for timing, don't know exactly why it works but it does for me.

Yes! When my breaststroke starts feeling off and like I'm swimming uphill and out of whack I switch to alternating 25s of double-kick breast and breast pull with dolphin kick. Doing that for a couple hundred usually makes it easier for my regular breast to come together.

The key I find with the 2 kick 1 pull drill is to treat it as taking a regular breaststroke pull/kick timing followed by an additional kick-only while in streamline. For the drill to be really useful you want the pull and first kick to be your normal timing. Basically I find the drill allows you to really stretch out your breaststroke without slowing down so much during the long streamline that it's hard to follow with a proper pull. The other often-used drill of "stretch-out breast" where you glide for a few seconds after the kick always screws me up, you slow down too much during the glide and your body position gets out of whack and makes the next pull awkward.

Probably used way too many words for something so simple. But I love this drill, it's also my favorite drill to warmup breast before a race. It always makes my stroke feel fast after doing a 50 of double-kick followed by a 25 of fast regular breast.

Allen Stark
April 30th, 2010, 11:01 PM
2 kicks on pull is a great drill.I also like the BR pull with dolphin kick with fins for timing better than just dolphin kick.I find I need big fins as I can't keep the timing right with short fins.

swimmj
May 1st, 2010, 12:49 PM
Another good breaststroke timing drill is to do vertical breaststroke, but it's best done with someone watching you. The goal is to stay at the top of apex as long as possible - straight up and straight down means you are kicking too early, and up and then up again means you are kicking too late. Up and then pause means your timing is perfect.

TRYM_Swimmer
May 1st, 2010, 01:13 PM
Agree that breaststroke is mighty, but disagree that it's the slowest stroke. You've obviously never seen my backstroke. JB

Or mine! Third leg of IM faster than second for most of my life!

ElaineK
May 1st, 2010, 07:09 PM
Agree that breaststroke is mighty, but disagree that it's the slowest stroke. You've obviously never seen my backstroke. JB
Point well taken! Not only have you NOT seen my backstroke; my fly and back are BOTH slower than my breaststroke! :afraid:

ElaineK
May 1st, 2010, 07:25 PM
Watch some video of Rebecca Soni.Her pull is not narrow like yours has to be but she has practically no insweep and is blazing fast.If she can do it so can you,just really focus in getting everything from your pull that you can without hurting yourself but also use your kick and timing and you'll be fine.
Thanks, Allen! I just finished watching every Rebecca Soni video on You Tube and saved one to my playlist. What a beautiful stroke! I wish I could watch it in slow motion to see the fine points of her stroke. Can you recommend anything like that?

pwolf66
May 1st, 2010, 09:49 PM
Here is another tip:Shoot your hands FORWARD on the recovery ,not up and especially not down.It doesn't matter if your hands are above the surface,at the surface or under it,the important thing is that they are in line with the body as you streamline.Many people(myself included all too often) angle their arms down to increase undulation.Just like moving the arms up and down in SDK to increase undulation it is not only unnecessary it breaks streamline and slows you down.

Great point, Allen.


What helps me is to do 'thumb drill'. Since I recover with my palms facing each other, I extend my thumbs so that they break the surface of the water. If they don't then I know my hands are not going forward in a straight line towards the opposite wall.

One thing to be careful of tho. This drill should only be used during the intial (approx the first 50%) forward 'pop' of recovery. Do not attempt to keep the thumbs at the surface of the water all the way to full extension as this will cause you to be too shallow in your glide position. It is perfectly natural for your hands to end up 4-6 inches under the water at full extension as this is a result of your head and shoulders dropping under the surface of the water. Remember, during your glide the back of your head should be under approximately 2 inches of water.

Allen Stark
May 2nd, 2010, 04:52 PM
Re: turns,1st ,this should go without saying,but always turn with 2 hands,this is a corollary to the"train like you race or you'll race like you train" rule.
2nd,while I know some really fast swimmers grab the gutter I recommend that the average masters swimmer not.The most common turn error I see is grabbing and twisting to try and get back on your stomach faster.This just slows you down.You want to get into a ball and roll backwards with the only twisting motion from jerking back the elbow on your leading arm which is followed by recovering the other arm out of the water near your head(as I have heard coaches say"elbow the robber,call the cops."It is of course OK to use the gutter for leverage to speed the rotation of your turn as the trailing arm pushes to help you spin around,just don't grab and don't twist(as I say,"roll like a ball,don't twist like a screw."

ElaineK
May 2nd, 2010, 06:42 PM
Great point, Allen.


What helps me is to do 'thumb drill'. Since I recover with my palms facing each other, I extend my thumbs so that they break the surface of the water. If they don't then I know my hands are not going forward in a straight line towards the opposite wall.

One thing to be careful of tho. This drill should only be used during the intial (approx the first 50%) forward 'pop' of recovery. Do not attempt to keep the thumbs at the surface of the water all the way to full extension as this will cause you to be too shallow in your glide position. It is perfectly natural for your hands to end up 4-6 inches under the water at full extension as this is a result of your head and shoulders dropping under the surface of the water. Remember, during your glide the back of your head should be under approximately 2 inches of water.

I tried this today and it helped- thanks, Paul!! :agree:

ElaineK
May 2nd, 2010, 06:48 PM
You want to get into a ball and roll backwards with the only twisting motion from jerking back the elbow on your leading arm which is followed by recovering the other arm out of the water near your head(as I have heard coaches say"elbow the robber,call the cops."It is of course OK to use the gutter for leverage to speed the rotation of your turn as the trailing arm pushes to help you spin around,just don't grab and don't twist(as I say,"roll like a ball,don't twist like a screw."

Another great tip! :applaud: Thanks, Allen! You have been so helpful on this thread, so I'm glad Ande started it! :D

The first time I heard, "elbow the robber, call the cops" was when I read Mastering Swimming. I cracked up, but I have never forgotten it! On a Go Swim video, the "call the cops" arm is referred to as, "saluting the referee". Hey, whatever helps to remember! :D I have an entire list of them now that I think about when I'm swimming and it seems to help, because I feel my breaststroke is improving. My favorite one though is yours: Elbows in front of shoulders. Thanks, Allen! :D

sjstuart
May 3rd, 2010, 08:17 AM
while I know some really fast swimmers grab the gutter I recommend that the average masters swimmer not.

This is especially important when the pool doesn't have a gutter!

I am (or was) a gutter-grabber. But then I swam in the St Nick's meet (in the GA Tech pool where Nationals will be held) and discovered that my breaststroke turns were very slow in a pool that has no gutters! Since then, I have been intentionally not using the gutter in my home pool. It's a very different turn if you can't count on using your arms for some leverage, but now that I'm used to it, it's not much slower.

Allen Stark
May 5th, 2010, 12:15 AM
Another problem I see frequently is with the kick.What I like to see is recover the feet by bending the knees only ,keeping the knees about 1-2 fists apart at all times until the finish of the kick when they get even closer.Bring the feet up as close to the rear as possible.Externally rotate the ankles as far as possible for the catch(ideally pointing to the edge of the pool.)Then kick back and simultaneously internally rotate the ankles so that you finish with your soles nearly facing each other and your ankles touching.The kick should almost feel like you are kicking straight back,but since your feet start out outside your knees the path is actually curved.What you don't do is to kick out and then in,nor do you recover with your knees outside of your hips.It is OK to bend slightly at the hips just before the catch for more power,but if you do too soon it breaks your streamline too much.

Lee Rider
May 5th, 2010, 01:43 PM
Good discussion. All points are important, especially turns in short course races and staying in a streamline position at all times, along with timing.

Turns: I really don't swim faster than most of the people I compete against, but win races because I turn better than most of them (and I pretty much suck at long course). I do sets just working on turns; build towards a turn, touch 2 hands, drop elbow in turn direction towards opposite wall. The biggest mistake I see is "climbing the wall", getting too high out of the water on a turn. Stay low and rotate on your side while turning. Explode off the wall and STREAMLINE. Underwater streamline is more important in breaststroke than any other stroke.
Then comes breath control. It is essential to extend the streamline as far as possible at race speed, which is actually easier than swimming other than having to hold your breath. To work on breath control I do a set of 10 x 50yds on 1:15, 1st lap under water (no intermediate breath if possible), do a fast turn with one breath, then do your underwater pull and strong breakout, swimming the balance of the 25 at a moderate speed. Do your underwaters exactly as you would do them as a pull down and note your speed during the pull, recovery and kick by watching the bottom of the pool. You will see that when you recover your legs you may just about stop during that phase which means you may need to alter your timing or reduce drag by keeping you knees more inside of your streamline envelope (more behind the buttocks). This, along with abalone diving, helps me stay under on a streamline on that last turn while everyone else is on the surface swimming burning glycogen needed for those last few yards.

Streamline: If I can streamline at 260 lbs, anyone can do it. Streamlining during the stroke is most important. Swimming is basically gliding between powerful strokes, so the better you are at gliding (streamlining), the faster you will swim. This means avoiding disturbing the "streamline envelope" that your body produces during swimming. Bending your knees behind your buttocks rather than below your body is a big advantage. The water behind your buttocks is already disturbed, so it makes sense that bending your knees in that area rather than letting them drop either down below your body or out to the sides reduces drag and helps you glide. Hands and elbows together on recovery also help with the streamline, as does getting under the surface tension of the water.
Lastly, timing is strongly related to gliding. It takes much more energy to accelerate a body from a stalled position than it does from a moderate speed, so the goal is to maintain a moderate speed at the least propulsive stage of the stroke. Make sure that your kick recovery is fairly brisk and doesn't languish. Recover the kick during the insweep of the arms so that you are "loaded" when arm recovery begins. Watch the bottom of the pool or the lane rope to determine velocities during the stroke and try to "flatten" those velocity curves.

Also: I always count strokes and do stroke count sets to remind me to get as much out of a streamline as possible. I'll do a set of 100's doing the first 25 with one more stroke than my lowest possible stroke count on a 25, then add a stroke for the next 25, then add another for the next 25, then go back one stroke for the final 25 to get help glide when you are tired. My lowest stroke count is 3 un-tapered and without the body suit, so I'll do 4 strokes, then 5, then 6, then 5 on these sets. It really helps get your stroke more efficient.

Hope this helps

Allen Stark
May 5th, 2010, 05:12 PM
Good discussion. All points are important, especially turns in short course races and staying in a streamline position at all times, along with timing.

Turns: I really don't swim faster than most of the people I compete against, but win races because I turn better than most of them (and I pretty much suck at long course). I do sets just working on turns; build towards a turn, touch 2 hands, drop elbow in turn direction towards opposite wall. The biggest mistake I see is "climbing the wall", getting too high out of the water on a turn. Stay low and rotate on your side while turning. Explode off the wall and STREAMLINE. Underwater streamline is more important in breaststroke than any other stroke.
Then comes breath control. It is essential to extend the streamline as far as possible at race speed, which is actually easier than swimming other than having to hold your breath. To work on breath control I do a set of 10 x 50yds on 1:15, 1st lap under water (no intermediate breath if possible), do a fast turn with one breath, then do your underwater pull and strong breakout, swimming the balance of the 25 at a moderate speed. Do your underwaters exactly as you would do them as a pull down and note your speed during the pull, recovery and kick by watching the bottom of the pool. You will see that when you recover your legs you may just about stop during that phase which means you may need to alter your timing or reduce drag by keeping you knees more inside of your streamline envelope (more behind the buttocks). This, along with abalone diving, helps me stay under on a streamline on that last turn while everyone else is on the surface swimming burning glycogen needed for those last few yards.

Streamline: If I can streamline at 260 lbs, anyone can do it. Streamlining during the stroke is most important. Swimming is basically gliding between powerful strokes, so the better you are at gliding (streamlining), the faster you will swim. This means avoiding disturbing the "streamline envelope" that your body produces during swimming. Bending your knees behind your buttocks rather than below your body is a big advantage. The water behind your buttocks is already disturbed, so it makes sense that bending your knees in that area rather than letting them drop either down below your body or out to the sides reduces drag and helps you glide. Hands and elbows together on recovery also help with the streamline, as does getting under the surface tension of the water.
Lastly, timing is strongly related to gliding. It takes much more energy to accelerate a body from a stalled position than it does from a moderate speed, so the goal is to maintain a moderate speed at the least propulsive stage of the stroke. Make sure that your kick recovery is fairly brisk and doesn't languish. Recover the kick during the insweep of the arms so that you are "loaded" when arm recovery begins. Watch the bottom of the pool or the lane rope to determine velocities during the stroke and try to "flatten" those velocity curves.

Also: I always count strokes and do stroke count sets to remind me to get as much out of a streamline as possible. I'll do a set of 100's doing the first 25 with one more stroke than my lowest possible stroke count on a 25, then add a stroke for the next 25, then add another for the next 25, then go back one stroke for the final 25 to get help glide when you are tired. My lowest stroke count is 3 un-tapered and without the body suit, so I'll do 4 strokes, then 5, then 6, then 5 on these sets. It really helps get your stroke more efficient.

Hope this helps

Really good tips.I forgot to mention counting strokes.I count strokes every length.If my stroke count is getting less at the same speed or my speed is getting better at the same stroke count then I know I am improving.Also doing stroke count all the time means I'll do it in the race without thinking which can help cue me if I am spinning my wheels or going out too slow.

ElaineK
May 6th, 2010, 03:26 PM
If my stroke count is getting less at the same speed or my speed is getting better at the same stroke count then I know I am improving.
Case in point, Allen: Thanks to your advice (and the others, too), I have decreased my stroke count from 12-13 to 10-11 on the 200 breaststroke AND decreased my time (in practice) by 3 seconds. Looking at the video my husband shot, though, I have a long way to go to get my stroke to resemble what you describe in your tips! :afraid:
My streamline isn't as good as I would like it to be, because of my prior shoulder surgery. I was left with stubs for a first rib, so my left side can't streamline as well as my right side.

The other obvious deficiency in my stroke is my kick being too wide. But, keeping my knees narrower than my hips is another RSI (repetitive stress injury) waiting to happen. I am THE most vulnerable person I know to getting RSIs! (I've had plenty and it runs in the family...) :badday:

So, another question goes out to you and my fellow breaststrokers: I have to keep my kick wider than I would like (just like I have to keep my pull narrower than I would like...) to stay in this sport for the long haul. Otherwise, I will be an RSI mess. :bitching: How much will a wider kick slow me down, all else being equal? I just wonder how much I can reasonably expect my times to improve with my physical limitations... I don't know if this question is even possible to answer, but I thought I would give it a try! :D

Allen Stark
May 6th, 2010, 03:37 PM
Case in point, Allen: Thanks to your advice (and the others, too), I have decreased my stroke count from 12-13 to 10-11 on the 200 breaststroke AND decreased my time (in practice) by 3 seconds. Looking at the video my husband shot, though, I have a long way to go to get my stroke to resemble what you describe in your tips! :afraid:
My streamline isn't as good as I would like it to be, because of my prior shoulder surgery. I was left with stubs for a first rib, so my left side can't streamline as well as my right side.

The other obvious deficiency in my stroke is my kick being too wide. But, keeping my knees narrower than my hips is another RSI (repetitive stress injury) waiting to happen. I am THE most vulnerable person I know to getting RSIs! (I've had plenty and it runs in the family...) :badday:

So, another question goes out to you and my fellow breaststrokers: I have to keep my kick wider than I would like (just like I have to keep my pull narrower than I would like...) to stay in this sport for the long haul. Otherwise, I will be an RSI mess. :bitching: How much will a wider kick slow me down, all else being equal? I just wonder how much I can reasonably expect my times to improve with my physical limitations... I don't know if this question is even possible to answer, but I thought I would give it a try! :D
Having to keep your legs wide for the kick to avoid injury is not a disaster,especially if you don't need to do so during the recovery and can wait until the catch.Also make sure that you don't kick out as that won't decrease the strain,it will only slow you down.You have already dropped 3 sec,I expect you will drop much more.It will be fun to find out how much.

ElaineK
May 6th, 2010, 04:17 PM
Having to keep your legs wide for the kick to avoid injury is not a disaster,especially if you don't need to do so during the recovery and can wait until the catch.Also make sure that you don't kick out as that won't decrease the strain,it will only slow you down.You have already dropped 3 sec,I expect you will drop much more.It will be fun to find out how much.

Ooops, wrong lingo! :blush: When I said "kick", I was referring to the legs part of the breaststroke. So, it would be the recovery and catch where the "whip kick" causes the problems for me. I need to keep my knees apart EXCEPT for the glide, where I make a point of touching my feet together, so I know I'm as streamlined as I can get. And, I was advised by another swimmer to not start my outsweep on the pull until my feet have touched, to make sure I don't rush my glide. What do you think?

THANKS, ALLEN! :D

ElaineK
May 6th, 2010, 04:31 PM
P.S. Allen, I'm hoping to watch you at Nationals, but it's going to be tough. For the 50br., you are in heat #8 and I'm in #11. For the 100br., you are in heat #7 and I'm in #3 (a possibility there, depending on how the two pools are running). Then, for the 200br., we're both in heat #8. Oh well...

matysekj
May 6th, 2010, 04:46 PM
P.S. Allen, I'm hoping to watch you at Nationals, but it's going to be tough. For the 50br., you are in heat #8 and I'm in #11. For the 100br., you are in heat #7 and I'm in #3 (a possibility there, depending on how the two pools are running). Then, for the 200br., we're both in heat #8. Oh well...


It won't be a problem, Elaine. The two courses at Ga Tech will be designated as an even heats course and an odd heats course. All of the women's heats in one event will be run in those two courses followed by all of the men's heats. So you'll have lots of time to warm down after swimming and will then be able to watch any of the men's heats.

The only exception to this is the 1000 and 1650 Freestyle where the men's and women's events are combined into a single event for each of these two events. So for these we will seed all the men and women together in the 1000 and swim them in the two courses, even and odd heats. Then we'll seed all the men and women together in the 1650 and swim them in the odd and even courses.

Allen Stark
May 6th, 2010, 05:33 PM
Ooops, wrong lingo! :blush: When I said "kick", I was referring to the legs part of the breaststroke. So, it would be the recovery and catch where the "whip kick" causes the problems for me. I need to keep my knees apart EXCEPT for the glide, where I make a point of touching my feet together, so I know I'm as streamlined as I can get. And, I was advised by another swimmer to not start my outsweep on the pull until my feet have touched, to make sure I don't rush my glide. What do you think?

THANKS, ALLEN! :D
I have another thought.I have twitchy shoulders and knees so I do relatively little actual BR during workout.Could you do maybe 200 total full stroke in workout and get your form right without hurting yourself?Then spend the rest of your workout doing drills and free for conditioning and feel for the water.I recommend against doing much if any BR kick by itself.It puts too much strain on the knees.I do lots of eggbeater kick,either vertical or horizontal with a snorkel.I find it gives me a great leg workout of the appropriate muscles with much less knee strain.

ElaineK
May 6th, 2010, 06:07 PM
It won't be a problem, Elaine. The two courses at Ga Tech will be designated as an even heats course and an odd heats course. All of the women's heats in one event will be run in those two courses followed by all of the men's heats. So you'll have lots of time to warm down after swimming and will then be able to watch any of the men's heats.

The only exception to this is the 1000 and 1650 Freestyle where the men's and women's events are combined into a single event for each of these two events. So for these we will seed all the men and women together in the 1000 and swim them in the two courses, even and odd heats. Then we'll seed all the men and women together in the 1650 and swim them in the odd and even courses.

That's great news, Jim, thanks! :applaud: Hey, by the way, you sure are a nice hubby to Anna Lea. :agree: (If you didn't catch her comment about you, she'll have to fill you in... :D)

At least I KNOW I won't have any problems catching up with Anna Lea at the meet, since we're in the same heat! :D

ElaineK
May 6th, 2010, 06:12 PM
I have another thought.I have twitchy shoulders and knees so I do relatively little actual BR during workout.Could you do maybe 200 total full stroke in workout and get your form right without hurting yourself?Then spend the rest of your workout doing drills and free for conditioning and feel for the water.I recommend against doing much if any BR kick by itself.It puts too much strain on the knees.I do lots of eggbeater kick,either vertical or horizontal with a snorkel.I find it gives me a great leg workout of the appropriate muscles with much less knee strain.

OK, let me see how it goes in the pool tomorrow. Thanks for the suggestion! I don't have a snorkel and our pool is only five feet deep, but I'll see what I can do. I will have to experiment with the knees. I feel it immediately if they are in too close, so at least I'll get instant feedback!

Jimbosback
May 6th, 2010, 11:13 PM
Also: I always count strokes and do stroke count sets to remind me to get as much out of a streamline as possible. I'll do a set of 100's doing the first 25 with one more stroke than my lowest possible stroke count on a 25, then add a stroke for the next 25, then add another for the next 25, then go back one stroke for the final 25 to get help glide when you are tired. My lowest stroke count is 3 un-tapered and without the body suit, so I'll do 4 strokes, then 5, then 6, then 5 on these sets. It really helps get your stroke more efficient.

Hope this helps

Wow, three strokes is awesome. I have gotten down to six, both full stroke and underwater, after pullout. I guess I have a ways to go. Pull buoy, I am down to 12, and I go 9 kicks per 25. These are all way down, but I still feel like my streamline needs work, as does the timing of my pullout.

Tough keepping the head neutral and the legs flat when fatigue sets in. I find it helps to rotate my knees inward at the start of the kick.

ElaineK
May 11th, 2010, 10:51 AM
I have another thought.I have twitchy shoulders and knees so I do relatively little actual BR during workout.Could you do maybe 200 total full stroke in workout and get your form right without hurting yourself?Then spend the rest of your workout doing drills and free for conditioning and feel for the water.I recommend against doing much if any BR kick by itself.It puts too much strain on the knees.I do lots of eggbeater kick,either vertical or horizontal with a snorkel.I find it gives me a great leg workout of the appropriate muscles with much less knee strain.
Hey Allen, I took another 2 seconds off my 200 breaststroke for a total of 5 seconds off, since I started taking your advice. :D THANK YOU!!!

Allen Stark
May 11th, 2010, 08:45 PM
Hey Allen, I took another 2 seconds off my 200 breaststroke for a total of 5 seconds off, since I started taking your advice. :D THANK YOU!!!

:cheerleader::cheerleader::cheerleader::cheerleade r::cheerleader:,one cheerleader for each second.

ElaineK
May 11th, 2010, 10:06 PM
:cheerleader::cheerleader::cheerleader::cheerleade r::cheerleader:,one cheerleader for each second.

:bliss::bliss::bliss::bliss::bliss:

Lee Rider
May 13th, 2010, 03:18 AM
Wow, three strokes is awesome. I have gotten down to six, both full stroke and underwater, after pullout. I guess I have a ways to go. Pull buoy, I am down to 12, and I go 9 kicks per 25. These are all way down, but I still feel like my streamline needs work, as does the timing of my pullout.

Tough keepping the head neutral and the legs flat when fatigue sets in. I find it helps to rotate my knees inward at the start of the kick.

Jim: You are doing real good at 6 strokes and 9 kicks is great (I do mostly 8 but can stretch it to 7 if I really glide between kicks).

What you need to look at is the relationship between stroke count and time for a 50. There will be a point where you don't go any faster adding more strokes, so working that stroke count down while maintaining that same pace is the goal. Also take into account your "perceived effort" rating on a scale from 1 to 10 along with heart rate. All of these factors give you feedback on stroke efficiency.

I do most of my training alone, so these concepts play a big part of how I work on my stroke efficiency.

Tapered, shaved and wearing my 2000 "farmer john" type short body suit, I do 6 x 50 on a minute and have done a pullout, 2 strokes, turn, pullout, 2 strokes and finish in about 33 seconds from a push. That's when I know my stroke is really efficient. Mid season I'm usually doing 4 strokes at about 38 seconds for the same set. It is real easy to tell when things are really working.

Anyway, good luck.

Robert Strand
May 13th, 2010, 10:58 AM
I think a lot of you breastrokers don't know or have never seen Lee Rider. #1 when healthy he is one of the world's best #2 he has a beautiful stroke. Reminds me of my late friend and competitor Olympic gold medalist Don McKenize #3 Biggest, strongest guy I have ever swam against #4 He has fantastic turns and wall work #4 wish he was going to be in Atlanta for two reasons A. so other breastrokers could see him swim and B. I could go to any bar, get as crazy as I want, and believe me Lee would get me out of any trouble. Not many people would want to fool with this guy. Seriously Lee hope to see you soon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Chris Stevenson
May 13th, 2010, 11:54 AM
Not many people would want to fool with this guy.

He must have a tattoo (http://www.swimnetwork.com/News/Swimming/Blogs/Mike-Gustafson/2009/12/Stereotyping-Swimmers.aspx).

I like this one (http://www.swimnetwork.com/News/Swimming/Blogs/Casey-Barrett/2010/05/Swimming-Stroke-Horoscopes.aspx) too.

Jimbosback
May 13th, 2010, 12:24 PM
Breaststrokers:
The most eccentric and idiosyncratic of all the signs, er, strokes. Breaststrokers are a breed apart, marching to the beat of their own drummer. Or in the case of Tennessee's Jeremy Linn, one of the finest breaststrokers in NCAA history, the beat of Phish drummer Jon Fishman. Back in the mid-90's, Linn was the prototype eccentric breaststroker: head in the clouds, frog-leaping behind the blocks... and then breaking records and rushing off to follow Phish on the road. Need a few more examples? How about the guys who raced to breaststroke gold in 1992 in Barcelona? Nelson Diebel and Mike Barrowman. Two guys who couldn't be more different, but both, well, just a bit out there... On every team I've ever known, that was the breaststrokers - off in their own world, and proud of it.

:banana:

Karen Duggan
May 13th, 2010, 01:23 PM
I totally agree, unless they're an IMer too!

Glider
May 13th, 2010, 01:26 PM
I was looking forward to meeting Lee and racing him.

Lee: What's your secret on wall work? My walls suck. Need help...


I think a lot of you breastrokers don't know or have never seen Lee Rider. #1 when healthy he is one of the world's best #2 he has a beautiful stroke. Reminds me of my late friend and competitor Olympic gold medalist Don McKenize #3 Biggest, strongest guy I have ever swam against #4 He has fantastic turns and wall work #4 wish he was going to be in Atlanta for two reasons A. so other breastrokers could see him swim and B. I could go to any bar, get as crazy as I want, and believe me Lee would get me out of any trouble. Not many people would want to fool with this guy. Seriously Lee hope to see you soon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lee Rider
May 14th, 2010, 07:36 PM
I think a lot of you breastrokers don't know or have never seen Lee Rider. #1 when healthy he is one of the world's best #2 he has a beautiful stroke. Reminds me of my late friend and competitor Olympic gold medalist Don McKenize #3 Biggest, strongest guy I have ever swam against #4 He has fantastic turns and wall work #4 wish he was going to be in Atlanta for two reasons A. so other breastrokers could see him swim and B. I could go to any bar, get as crazy as I want, and believe me Lee would get me out of any trouble. Not many people would want to fool with this guy. Seriously Lee hope to see you soon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks Bob. Wish I could be there to swim but not to bar hop!

Wish I could have records that last for 10 years like you and Don. That is the real accomplishment. Hope you are well and swim fast at Atlanta. Warren Schenstrom could stand in for me at the bar!

Lee Rider
May 14th, 2010, 07:41 PM
Lee: this is an interesting workout set, for sure.

What are the reasons you are so much faster
with the two-stroke set, late in the season,
as opposed to the 4-stroke set, early on ?

Scott

Scott: The suit, the shave and the taper. Basically later in the season we all should be gliding better.

I'm basically a lazy guy so I like to glide as much as possible!

Lee Rider
May 14th, 2010, 08:04 PM
I was looking forward to meeting Lee and racing him.

Lee: What's your secret on wall work? My walls suck. Need help...

I think that having short legs helps. I am almost 6'-1" and have a 31" inseam. Leg press and toe raises in the weight room also helps (but, strangely, hasn't really helped my start which really sucks).

Pick a spot mid pool to start from, swim 12.5 yds, turn and pull-out. Time yourself to that spot and work the turn. Maintain momentum going into the turn and use that momentum when you reverse direction. They are like free throws: The more you do consecutively, the better they will be.

All of the aspects of a good wall are in this section of the forum

ElaineK
May 16th, 2010, 10:29 AM
I have another thought.I have twitchy shoulders and knees so I do relatively little actual BR during workout.Could you do maybe 200 total full stroke in workout and get your form right without hurting yourself?Then spend the rest of your workout doing drills and free for conditioning and feel for the water.I recommend against doing much if any BR kick by itself.It puts too much strain on the knees.I do lots of eggbeater kick,either vertical or horizontal with a snorkel.I find it gives me a great leg workout of the appropriate muscles with much less knee strain.

Allen, I see exactly WHY you do relatively little actual breaststroke during workout. I've been working on keeping my knees narrower on the kick and it didn't take many workouts before I felt it in my knees and had to back off. So, I decided to give the knees a break and concentrate more on my streamline; keeping my elbows closer together and getting my hands in a better position to start the outsweep. Yikes! Add "twitchy" elbows to my mix, in addition to the shoulders and knees... :bitching: Like I said, I'm a walking R.S.I. So, I backed off, started my taper on May 11th, and cut down on my breaststroke, so I can rest up my aching joints and everything else...

After Nationals, I'll be tapping "The Breaststroke Lane" on in-pool training advice for breaststroke. The goal will be to swim with the best form possible, but keep it easy on the joints (and everything else), so I can be in this sport for the long haul (90's??? :cane: ) I'll have to save my best form for meets, I guess. :agree:

Jimbosback
May 17th, 2010, 01:38 PM
Jim: You are doing real good at 6 strokes and 9 kicks is great (I do mostly 8 but can stretch it to 7 if I really glide between kicks).

What you need to look at is the relationship between stroke count and time for a 50. There will be a point where you don't go any faster adding more strokes, so working that stroke count down while maintaining that same pace is the goal. Also take into account your "perceived effort" rating on a scale from 1 to 10 along with heart rate. All of these factors give you feedback on stroke efficiency.

I do most of my training alone, so these concepts play a big part of how I work on my stroke efficiency.

Tapered, shaved and wearing my 2000 "farmer john" type short body suit, I do 6 x 50 on a minute and have done a pullout, 2 strokes, turn, pullout, 2 strokes and finish in about 33 seconds from a push. That's when I know my stroke is really efficient. Mid season I'm usually doing 4 strokes at about 38 seconds for the same set. It is real easy to tell when things are really working.

Anyway, good luck.

Thanks for the advice. I also train alone.

I tried out my new Aquablade jammers this morning and went 25y in 5 strokes full stroke, 7 kicks (no board), and 10 pulls with the buoy. Not sure how much of that is the suit and how much is the work I'm putting in, but I'll take it. I'll see on Wednesday when I get back to my old suit. I only swim for time on Fridays, so I'll experiment with time vs. stroke count then.

swimshark
May 19th, 2010, 07:18 AM
Originally Posted by Casey Barrett
Breaststrokers:
The most eccentric and idiosyncratic of all the signs, er, strokes. Breaststrokers are a breed apart, marching to the beat of their own drummer. Or in the case of Tennessee's Jeremy Linn, one of the finest breaststrokers in NCAA history, the beat of Phish drummer Jon Fishman. Back in the mid-90's, Linn was the prototype eccentric breaststroker: head in the clouds, frog-leaping behind the blocks... and then breaking records and rushing off to follow Phish on the road. Need a few more examples? How about the guys who raced to breaststroke gold in 1992 in Barcelona? Nelson Diebel and Mike Barrowman. Two guys who couldn't be more different, but both, well, just a bit out there... On every team I've ever known, that was the breaststrokers - off in their own world, and proud of it.

Hey, that's my coach- Jeremy! He's still a bit that way but is so awesome to have as a coach. I'm still trying to convince him to swim in a masters meet again. One of these days....

Lee Rider
May 22nd, 2010, 04:22 PM
Just took a look at the real time results at Nationals. Breaststrokes look real fast.

At some point in my life I would like to swim faster than one second every year I have been alive in the 100 yard breaststroke. I don't know if anyone has ever done it, but Bob Strand came darn close and could be the first to do it in the next couple of years.

Wish I could have been there to see it.

SurfAndSwim
May 24th, 2010, 07:37 PM
hi guys,
is here someone who can swim 50 BR SCM under 30 sec? or LCM under 31? if so, how fast you kick in practice? 25, 50, 100 ?

thanks

When I'm kicking I usually don't do too many 25's, but when I do them 17-19 is a target for a 25. For 50's, 37-39, and for 100's 1:17 - 1:22 is my target. For 200 yard kick I try to be around 2:45-2:50 depending on how many. Intervals should be about 1:00 per 50 depending on the intensity of the sets.

SurfAndSwim
May 24th, 2010, 08:00 PM
I had a great battle with KEN FROST yesterday in the 50 Breast at Nationals.

The thing that was most impressive, as I sat behind the blocks,
trying to look like I was catching my breath, was watching
Mark Gangloff, 27 break the national 25-29 age group
50 yard breastroke national record
with an eye-popping 23.87 seconds time.

23.87 for 50 breast !

Mark was so fast, he made the next three finishers look slow,
even though they were in the 25's !

Here's part of my question:
Is this the fastest 50 yard breastroke on record, from a flat start ?
By that I mean, not a relay split, but from a gun.
Either as a straight 50, or the first 50 of a 100 ?

Basically, I am asking:
1) Did we just see the fastest 50 Br of all time ?
2) Was that time set by a masters swimmer ?

Mark's swim was absolutely spectacular, 23.8 in 50 BR is insanely fast. I am not sure if this was the fastest 50, since the American Record in the 100 is 50.8, I would imagine that the first 50 of that race was probably under 24. But that said, there probably have been very few 23's from a flat start by anyone ever!

JoeBob
May 24th, 2010, 08:03 PM
[QUOTE=Scott Guthrie;214950
Here's part of my question:
Is this the fastest 50 yard breastroke on record, from a flat start ?
By that I mean, not a relay split, but from a gun.
Either as a straight 50, or the first 50 of a 100 ?

Basically, I am asking:
1) Did we just see the fastest 50 Br of all time ?
2) Was that time set by a masters swimmer ?[/QUOTE]

Cal's Damir Dugonjic took his 100br out in 23.45 at last year's NCAAs when he went 50.86.
He could have probably broken a minute towing my entire family.

SwimStud
May 24th, 2010, 10:02 PM
Originally Posted by Casey Barrett
Breaststrokers:
The most eccentric and idiosyncratic of all the signs, er, strokes. Breaststrokers are a breed apart, marching to the beat of their own drummer. Or in the case of Tennessee's Jeremy Linn, one of the finest breaststrokers in NCAA history, the beat of Phish drummer Jon Fishman. Back in the mid-90's, Linn was the prototype eccentric breaststroker: head in the clouds, frog-leaping behind the blocks... and then breaking records and rushing off to follow Phish on the road. Need a few more examples? How about the guys who raced to breaststroke gold in 1992 in Barcelona? Nelson Diebel and Mike Barrowman. Two guys who couldn't be more different, but both, well, just a bit out there... On every team I've ever known, that was the breaststrokers - off in their own world, and proud of it.


Hey I'm not at all like that...

SwimStud
May 27th, 2010, 07:18 PM
OK--Top BR'ers out there please check out my vids.

100 BR
YouTube- SwimStud Rich 100 BR

200 BR
YouTube- Me 200 BR


Got some input that my hips come up to high on the undulations and I should keep them flatter. Curious what you think.
I was beat in the 200 and I feel proud to hang on to go within a second of my best...but I think on a rested day I can go faster.

Feel free to post here or msg me.

Thanks

Stud

Allen Stark
May 27th, 2010, 10:10 PM
Your stroke is muck better than when you first posted.There is a lot of glare so I couldn't see the fine points.I thought your hips were OK,you bring your head up a little high sometimes ,especially off the pullout in the 200.I was surprised how well paced your 100 was as you seemed to die at the end(34.31,38.76)The 200 was not well paced and you really died.Most of the stroke faults the 2nd 100 were related to fatigue.Maybe it was mostly due to the end of the meet factor,but I also thought you went out too fast.Your splits were 36.21,41.35,43.96,44.85.That means your 1st 50 was only less than 2 sec slower than your 1st 50 in the 100.I think if you had gone out 1/2-1 sec slower you'd have finished faster.Gutsy swim though!!

SwimStud
May 27th, 2010, 10:56 PM
Your stroke is muck better than when you first posted.There is a lot of glare so I couldn't see the fine points.I thought your hips were OK,you bring your head up a little high sometimes ,especially off the pullout in the 200.I was surprised how well paced your 100 was as you seemed to die at the end(34.31,38.76)The 200 was not well paced and you really died.Most of the stroke faults the 2nd 100 were related to fatigue.Maybe it was mostly due to the end of the meet factor,but I also thought you went out too fast.Your splits were 36.21,41.35,43.96,44.85.That means your 1st 50 was only less than 2 sec slower than your 1st 50 in the 100.I think if you had gone out 1/2-1 sec slower you'd have finished faster.Gutsy swim though!!

Thanks Allen...I didn't intend to go nuts on the front 100 but I think I'm a bit of a sprinter and it may take a bit of mental control to hold off going too fast. Check out my splits from last year and then the 200 from Nats...you're dead on with the analysis. I went out a 1:19 and came home in 1:25 last year. This year's race I think overall meet fatigue was a slight factor but I brought that small piano on myself... :D

Zones 09
Leg Cumulative Subtractive
1 37.90 37.90 2 1:19.05 41.15
3 2:02.92 43.87 4 2:45.47 42.55

Zones 10
Leg Cumulative Subtractive
1 36.21 36.21 2 1:17.56 41.35
3 2:01.52 43.96 4 2:46.37 44.85

With the 100BR I definitely tried to keep it long in the last few strokes...it wasn't fatigue...just a bad idea, so maybe next time I'll just keep up the tempo. I liked the first 75 of the swim though...

So if you think the hip undulation is OK, then I will not worry too much...but maybe not try to make it happen...and focus on getting my hips forward clean to lift the torso which should help the head position. Thanks for input...most useful.

Peter Cruise
May 27th, 2010, 11:20 PM
Stud- I echo Allen's comments about your improvement from watching the 100br; you've come a long way. However, the 200 was a different matter esp, as the camera angle allowed more isolation on you. In both races you need to attack your turns and get more out of your pullout and on the 200 it was obvious that you're not getting the propulsion that you should from your legs. You are appearing to have your arms doing too much of your work; they will tire and tie up faster than leg muscles. Plus you are initiating your glide from your arms and undulation (it seems) rather than from a strong leg kick which should be the genesis of a brief streamlined glide. As I said, you have already come a long way, Roque Santos should beware!

__steve__
May 27th, 2010, 11:43 PM
You were under water more than everyone else. Maybe less O2 also played a role in the splits?:)

rdeclercq
May 28th, 2010, 07:03 AM
All related to the 100 Br:
The initial start is great; the further you can go in the streamline position, the better off you are! I echo a couple comments about the glide/kick. When making that kick, try to "snap" your backside (up), which will give that little extra umph going into the glide. I agree that you seem to be a bit underwater (which is great if you're gliding).

I don't know if its worth considering to not bring your hands out so far; instead keep them to the width of your body. Otherwise, you're powering the side of you and not, well, you. A tighter pull might also provide for a quicker movement into the glide. Think of it like the chain link on a bike: that smaller gear takes greater input but the power output has a much greater ratio.

And yes, keep the head down! Great swim!

SwimStud
May 28th, 2010, 07:20 AM
You were under water more than everyone else. Maybe less O2 also played a role in the splits?:)

Maybe all that hospitality food I'd been eating all weekend played a role in the underwater bit too?

Hehe Steve, I do try to max my pullouts and normally, I am fine. I think I was physically done by the 200...It was my 4th event of the day including a relay & it was a rough swim. Plus I just did the 50 FR too.
That said to have a bt of a piano and still be 1 sec off my previous best...I'm not to disheartened...I just have to go easier next time.
Do you see anything in the stroke (probably more in the first 100 of the 200) to work on?

Peter and Rob
Thanks for the comments. I'll be tinkering with leg and kick and seeing if I can get some improvement in power by not over doing that undulation. I think everyone is seeing the same thing and expressing it slightly differently. I wish I had my 50 on tape.

sjstuart
May 28th, 2010, 08:42 AM
Hey Stud, I was in that same heat of the 200 breast. (You can see the ref on the way to DQ me for a false start on your 4th lap...) I'll post my video too, but I haven't managed to find time to upload it yet.

I'll be looking for stroke advice, too, and I'm probably not qualified to offer much to you. But I'll point out that in the 200 your stroke count faded from ~7 at the start of the race (5 on the first lap!) to ~9 at the end of the race (10 on your 7th lap).

I had some piano issues in that race, myself, with a 7-second difference between my front and back 100s. The 200 BR is definitely a tough race to swim last.

SwimStud
May 28th, 2010, 09:05 AM
Hey Stud, I was in that same heat of the 200 breast. (You can see the ref on the way to DQ me for a false start on your 4th lap...) I'll post my video too, but I haven't managed to find time to upload it yet.

I'll be looking for stroke advice, too, and I'm probably not qualified to offer much to you. But I'll point out that in the 200 your stroke count faded from ~7 at the start of the race (5 on the first lap!) to ~9 at the end of the race (10 on your 7th lap).

I had some piano issues in that race, myself, with a 7-second difference between my front and back 100s. The 200 BR is definitely a tough race to swim last.

Hey...I wish I'd known! That has to be the worst to DQ in that event on the last day...man, I feel for you.

Yeah it was a rough swim last thing...more of a "well I'm here ...so let's do this" kind of deal.

sjstuart
May 28th, 2010, 10:43 AM
That has to be the worst to DQ in that event on the last day...man, I feel for you.

At least I didn't know until I finished. I swam hard and crushed my PR. The time may not be official, but I was very happy with the swim. Now I know I can hit that time again someday.

SwimStud
May 28th, 2010, 10:47 AM
At least I didn't know until I finished. I swam hard and crushed my PR. The time may not be official, but I was very happy with the swim. Now I know I can hit that time again someday.

Way to be positive! Yup watch out next rinky-dink YMCA pool meet!! :D
It's exactly how I feel about my swim..I died horribly but within a second of my best...there's a sure drop in the future for me...and the rest of my meet was awesome.

Glider
May 28th, 2010, 11:58 AM
Steve

Congrats on the PR. What lane were you in? Are you heading to the meet in Athens next weekend? If so, see you there.

Mark


At least I didn't know until I finished. I swam hard and crushed my PR. The time may not be official, but I was very happy with the swim. Now I know I can hit that time again someday.

sjstuart
May 28th, 2010, 01:58 PM
It's not quite a PR, since it doesn't exist on paper...

I was in lane 7. Not visible on SwimStud's video, but I'll post mine soon.

I saw you in passing at the meet a few times, but didn't manage to say hi. I did see you had some very nice swims, including a beautifully paced/split 200 breast.

Edit: I won't be in Athens. I'll be swimming the open-water race in Clemson that weekend.
Edit again: it's actually the open-water race in Charleston that keeps me from Athens.

dolu
June 1st, 2010, 03:56 AM
hi everyone,
lately i worked out more on my legs and probably overloaded them. i feel strain (only) when kicking in water. how do you deal with this? the idea of not swimming a week or so 2 months prior Goteburg is daunting. do you think light streching, working out in the gym (i have no problem doing squats) and swimming everything exept BR can help? what are your experiences with knees? how do you take care of them?
thanks

sjstuart
June 1st, 2010, 09:59 AM
Sore knees are definitely a common problem among breaststrokers. I know I'm often near the border between minor joint pain and actual injury.

Taking a week off now, in the middle of your peak training period, may not sound good. But it's probably better than taking 3 weeks off later, or not being able to race well (or at all) because your knees are too tweaked.

It helps to track how many meters of BR kick you do per workout or per week, and don't increase too quickly. When ramping up distance AND switching to a BR focus you can add too much without realizing it.

Stretching and strengthening can definitely help, for prevention as much as rehab. Focus on exercises that strengthen the stabilizing muscles, like one-legged squats or standing leg abduction with an elastic band.

And working on other strokes, or doing BR drills with flutter or fly kick, can give your knees a rest while you build fitness. You'll still remember how to kick after a week off, don't worry.

sjstuart
June 1st, 2010, 10:13 AM
Okay, here's my 200 BR video from Nationals. Same heat as SwimStud, but across the pool. I'll post the 50 and 100 also. Any feedback is welcome.

Stuff I know about: the DQ for a false start in the 200 is a fair call, although I had no idea I was leaning. I surfaced a little too quickly in all of my breakouts. My 200 wasn't very well paced. My stroke rate faded from ~7 to ~9 too.

Stuff I don't know about: head position? turnover? any other technique advice, if you can see anything from above the water surface.

200: YouTube- Steve's 200 Breaststroke 10-05-23
(lane 7, bright green cap. Splits :31.61, :36.27, :36.85, :38.36)

100: YouTube- Steve 100 BR
(lane 2, bright green cap, splits :30.73, :34.81)

50: YouTube- Steve 50 BR
(lane 2, dark green cap, :29.84)

Glider
June 1st, 2010, 11:54 AM
Steve:

Very nice swim. 2:23 is a great time, over a 5 second drop. Congrats. I don't have any feedback other than what you've already noted. You were out fairly fast. Bet that last 50 really hurt ;-)

You can see my 100 split in lane 10 of the odd pool scoreboard at the end of your race. I split 32.4, 36.4, 36.9, 35.5.


Okay, here's my 200 BR video from Nationals. Same heat as SwimStud, but across the pool. I'll post the 50 and 100 also. Any feedback is welcome.

Stuff I know about: the DQ for a false start in the 200 is a fair call, although I had no idea I was leaning. I surfaced a little too quickly in all of my breakouts. My 200 wasn't very well paced. My stroke rate faded from ~7 to ~9 too.

Stuff I don't know about: head position? turnover? any other technique advice, if you can see anything from above the water surface.

200: YouTube- Steve's 200 Breaststroke 10-05-23 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmPxqGDhUQs)
(lane 7, bright green cap. Splits :31.61, :36.27, :36.85, :38.36)

100: YouTube- Steve 100 BR (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ta5escui6jg)
(lane 2, bright green cap, splits :30.73, :34.81)

50: YouTube- Steve 50 BR (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-hLLGu2h2A)
(lane 2, dark green cap, :29.84)

Allen Stark
June 1st, 2010, 12:19 PM
Steve,I just have a minute now and will look at the swims more later.I have only had a chance to see the 200.Good job,but what I notice is you are not getting your head down between your arms on the glide.Doing so will really help your DPS.More later.

SwimStud
June 1st, 2010, 01:04 PM
Steve and Mark...
We need to do a better job of keeping track of each other. It would have been nice to have watched or at least shaken hands with you guys after the "200BR of Death" at the end of nationals...I guess we'll have to paper trail each other for now:chug:

Steve you're way faster than me so take my input with pinch of salt. It could be the camera being close up but your starting pullout on the 100 looked a bit rushed, but as you noted...maybe my longer one hurt my splits. If you can or want to try a longer one sometime at a less important meet and let me know how you find your time. I found the longer UW worked shave off about 4 seconds over this season wth little else int he way of focused work on the 100...so I'm not convinced that faster breakout means a faster overall swim for me. I'd love to see how it works or doesn't work for you.

BTW...nice tempo to your swim.

Glider
June 1st, 2010, 01:41 PM
Rich: I had 4 different strategies in mind for the 200 BR race, for which I have such a love/hate relationship:

1. Scratch
2. Split a 50 trying for a PB, then cruise
3. Long and strong for 150 then hit the gas
4. Go for it and most likely die the last 100

I ended up choosing # 3 being as this was the last event of the meet and the 6th event for me.

Steve: Looked at all your races. You seem to get better performances in the longer races vs. the sprints. Wondering how much BR speed work you do?


..."200BR of Death" at the end of nationals...

swimmj
June 1st, 2010, 02:48 PM
Steve and Mark...
We need to do a better job of keeping track of each other. It would have been nice to have watched or at least shaken hands with you guys after the "200BR of Death" at the end of nationals...I guess we'll have to paper trail each other for now:chug:


I think the "200BR of Death" is perfectly named. It's exactly how that felt. I was off my best time by 6 seconds (fighting a groin pull and exhaustion) and now have a mental note to check my sanity next time the thought of doing a 200 of stroke at the end of nats crosses my mind.

sjstuart
June 1st, 2010, 04:46 PM
Allen: thanks for the tip. You should have seen my previous head position... I have lowered it quite a bit, but I do need to work on getting even more streamlined. I'll eagerly await any more pearls of wisdom.

Stud: I definitely surfaced too fast. Not just in my 100 start, but I came up too flat off of all of my walls. Maybe practicing in a 3-foot pool has something to do with that. I certainly didn't mean to criticize your pullouts -- a 5-stroke first lap is something I can aspire to. More underwater is definitely good. Especially off the start where I still have some oxygen. I probably just need to slow down a little off the start.

Glider: My last 50 was indeed painful, but not as bad as some that I have swum. I actually thought I had paced it well, until I saw my splits. Your splits were very well done. Speeding up on the last 50 gives me something to shoot for. I am definitely better the longer the race. You're right that I don't do a whole lot of speedwork. But I'm also not a fast-twitch kind of guy. Sprints are definitely my weak point, in every stroke.

SwimStud
June 1st, 2010, 05:39 PM
Stud: I definitely surfaced too fast. Not just in my 100 start, but I came up too flat off of all of my walls. Maybe practicing in a 3-foot pool has something to do with that. I certainly didn't mean to criticize your pullouts -- a 5-stroke first lap is something I can aspire to. More underwater is definitely good. Especially off the start where I still have some oxygen. I probably just need to slow down a little off the start.



Steve, I have no issue with your observations...and criticisms you gave were positive. I died a magnificent death there in Atlanta after the 60yard mark...I just thought if you can go longer underwater with your speed on the surface you'll drop a second or 2 on your 50. Yeah 3 ft pools are bad for deep pushoffs but get good at being 1 inch off the bottom on your streamline and going as far as you can.

On the positive side between us we have a kick ass Breaststroke!:bump:

Allen Stark
June 1st, 2010, 07:40 PM
Okay, here's my 200 BR video from Nationals. Same heat as SwimStud, but across the pool. I'll post the 50 and 100 also. Any feedback is welcome.

Stuff I know about: the DQ for a false start in the 200 is a fair call, although I had no idea I was leaning. I surfaced a little too quickly in all of my breakouts. My 200 wasn't very well paced. My stroke rate faded from ~7 to ~9 too.

Stuff I don't know about: head position? turnover? any other technique advice, if you can see anything from above the water surface.

200: YouTube- Steve's 200 Breaststroke 10-05-23 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmPxqGDhUQs)
(lane 7, bright green cap. Splits :31.61, :36.27, :36.85, :38.36)

100: YouTube- Steve 100 BR (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ta5escui6jg)
(lane 2, bright green cap, splits :30.73, :34.81)

50: YouTube- Steve 50 BR (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-hLLGu2h2A)
(lane 2, dark green cap, :29.84)

The 100 was pretty good at showing your stroke.You are bringing your arms too far back in my opinion and that delays your recovery,keeping you in a less than desirably unstreamlined position too long.Try to keep your elbows in front of your shoulders and see how that works for you.

sjstuart
June 4th, 2010, 08:51 AM
Thanks for the advice, Allen.

I played around some with shortening my stroke some today in practice, and have periodically tinkered with that before upon hearing similar advice. I have to say, it feels totally wrong. It feels as though I'm still getting a significant amount of propulsion when my elbows pass my shoulders. Although I do understand the logic of getting back to streamline faster. Maybe if I manage to improve my head position in streamline, that'll make it even more worthwhile.

What I really need to do is some timed efforts with different stroke styles / turnovers.

Allen Stark
June 29th, 2010, 10:30 PM
I just discovered what seems like a good drill to avoid dead spots in your recovery.With fins on flutter kick fast(I did this with a snorkel,but I suppose you could do it underwater or with regular breathing.Doing it with a snorkel lets me focus more on just my arms.Same for doing flutter kick instead of dolphin,with dolphin I was trying to make the timing work instead of just focusing on the arms.)Then start doing slow breaststroke pulls.If you hesitate in the recovery or don't get your elbows narrow you really notice the drag.You could do faster pulls but I found I could feel the water resistance better doing slow pulls.

swimdoc
July 7th, 2010, 05:52 PM
A shoulder injury has me wondering, reluctantly, into this lane. I once was a NCAA qualifier IM'er, with breast being my worst stroke. I've never known quite what to do with my pull, but now at age 52 with my shoulder problematic, I have time to figure this stroke out.

I have very wide shoulders and very long arms (finger tips to the knees), and all the good breastrokers I come across have much shorter, and powerful arms. It dawned on me that part of my problem may be that my catch is way to wide and my insweep much to prolonged because of my monkey-like upper extremities. Do any of you experts know of long-armed breastrokers and how they accommodate their arms to their pull?

ElaineK
July 7th, 2010, 06:37 PM
Welcome to our world! Nice to have you join us. I can't help you; I just wanted to welcome you. But, if anybody can help you, check out the guy who posted right before you: Allen Stark. He's the man! :applaud: He has given me such great advice on this thread and even watched my events at Nationals, giving poolside advice, as soon as I got out.

Good luck to you! :cheerleader:

swimdoc
July 7th, 2010, 07:19 PM
ElaineK was nice enough to refer me to you for trying to figure a problem (probably one of many) I have with the breastroke pull component.

I have broad shoulders and monkey-length arms (finger tips to the knees), and all the good breastrokers I come across have much shorter arms. When I mimic what I see the shorter-armed (i.e., normal) people do their pull, I get the feeling that part of my problem may be that my catch is way to wide and my insweep much to prolonged because of my long arms.

I've got good feel, catch etc. with the other strokes, but the more I tinker with my breastroke pull, the less I understand it.

Any suggestions? (Anyone?)

Peter Cruise
July 7th, 2010, 08:03 PM
Bruce- you may well have too wide a pull (hint- post us a video of current stroke) and rather than tinker per se, you need to play with the feel of your armstroke esp palms and inside of forearms before you settle on whats right for you. Sculling drills, underwater breastroke are very good for this. Yes you may end up narrowing your pull, but far more people pull too far back before recovery, for which it would be very good for a set of eyes on deck to watch you for that.
Once you have nailed your armstroke pattern then likely there will be some issues of timing between arms & legs...all can be corrected!

Allen Stark
July 7th, 2010, 08:28 PM
A shoulder injury has me wondering, reluctantly, into this lane. I once was a NCAA qualifier IM'er, with breast being my worst stroke. I've never known quite what to do with my pull, but now at age 52 with my shoulder problematic, I have time to figure this stroke out.

I have very wide shoulders and very long arms (finger tips to the knees), and all the good breastrokers I come across have much shorter, and powerful arms. It dawned on me that part of my problem may be that my catch is way to wide and my insweep much to prolonged because of my monkey-like upper extremities. Do any of you experts know of long-armed breastrokers and how they accommodate their arms to their pull?

If you could get a video I'd have a better idea of suggestions.Assuming your idea is right you might try narrowing your pull to just outside your shoulders and see if that is better.On the other hand if your pull is much better than your kick you may want to stay with the wide pull and work on better timing(if it doesn't hurt your shoulder).Since you are 52 I am assuming you learned head up BR.Have you learned head down,undulating BR(the so called "wave".)If not you may find BR easier given your IM background.Please post video's if you can.

swimdoc
July 8th, 2010, 08:59 PM
Thanks, Peter and Allen. My shoulder is a few weeks away from a video performance, but I'll send that along.

I did learn the "old style" of BR, and I get the undulation part of the "wave," which feels great if I do breast pull and fly kick with fins.

I'm really just not sure what I'm supposed to feel on the insweep. I can't figure out if you real breastrokers feel as if you are squeezing the water between your forearms and that naturally pops up the torso, if you feel like the catch sort of locks a spot in the water from which you're able to slide your hips up to the cobra coil position as the arms quickly recover, if the acceleration through the insweep is the real key to it all, or if it's none of these.

I don't really ever feel much with my forearms (just my hands), even if I do a fist drill. Maybe the lack of feel is because I have extremely long, relatively thin forearms (compared to some of the forearms I see on breastrokers).

Anyway, I won't waste more of your time until I produce the video. It really looks like it would be fun to swim it right (and fast). I'm very envious.

Thanks!

Jimbosback
July 8th, 2010, 09:17 PM
Jim: You are doing real good at 6 strokes and 9 kicks is great (I do mostly 8 but can stretch it to 7 if I really glide between kicks).

What you need to look at is the relationship between stroke count and time for a 50. There will be a point where you don't go any faster adding more strokes, so working that stroke count down while maintaining that same pace is the goal. Also take into account your "perceived effort" rating on a scale from 1 to 10 along with heart rate. All of these factors give you feedback on stroke efficiency.

I do most of my training alone, so these concepts play a big part of how I work on my stroke efficiency.

Tapered, shaved and wearing my 2000 "farmer john" type short body suit, I do 6 x 50 on a minute and have done a pullout, 2 strokes, turn, pullout, 2 strokes and finish in about 33 seconds from a push. That's when I know my stroke is really efficient. Mid season I'm usually doing 4 strokes at about 38 seconds for the same set. It is real easy to tell when things are really working.

Anyway, good luck.


Thanks for the advice. I also train alone.

I tried out my new Aquablade jammers this morning and went 25y in 5 strokes full stroke, 7 kicks (no board), and 10 pulls with the buoy. Not sure how much of that is the suit and how much is the work I'm putting in, but I'll take it. I'll see on Wednesday when I get back to my old suit. I only swim for time on Fridays, so I'll experiment with time vs. stroke count then.

Posting here because no one I know in RL would know what I am talking about, and I gotta tell someone. :-)

All of these #s are down even more for me now. I typically do each length of my 200 BR warm-up in 6 or 7 strokes, I go 8-9 strokes per with the pull buoy, and 6-7 kicks per length. I did my underwater drill going four strokes after pullout four times after being stuck at 5 for a while. This is all in my slow Speedo Endurance suit. Times are about the same, but endurance is way up.

I am currently working hard on my head position, as I still pick up my chin too much if I don't focus on it.

Allen Stark
July 8th, 2010, 10:11 PM
Posting here because no one I know in RL would know what I am talking about, and I gotta tell someone. :-)

All of these #s are down even more for me now. I typically do each length of my 200 BR warm-up in 6 or 7 strokes, I go 8-9 strokes per with the pull buoy, and 6-7 kicks per length. I did my underwater drill going four strokes after pullout four times after being stuck at 5 for a while. This is all in my slow Speedo Endurance suit. Times are about the same, but endurance is way up.

I am currently working hard on my head position, as I still pick up my chin too much if I don't focus on it.

Great!!:cheerleader::cheerleader:

Allen Stark
July 8th, 2010, 10:15 PM
Thanks, Peter and Allen. My shoulder is a few weeks away from a video performance, but I'll send that along.

I did learn the "old style" of BR, and I get the undulation part of the "wave," which feels great if I do breast pull and fly kick with fins.

I'm really just not sure what I'm supposed to feel on the insweep. I can't figure out if you real breastrokers feel as if you are squeezing the water between your forearms and that naturally pops up the torso, if you feel like the catch sort of locks a spot in the water from which you're able to slide your hips up to the cobra coil position as the arms quickly recover, if the acceleration through the insweep is the real key to it all, or if it's none of these.

I don't really ever feel much with my forearms (just my hands), even if I do a fist drill. Maybe the lack of feel is because I have extremely long, relatively thin forearms (compared to some of the forearms I see on breastrokers).

Anyway, I won't waste more of your time until I produce the video. It really looks like it would be fun to swim it right (and fast). I'm very envious.

Thanks!

I don't notice my forearms on BR any more than on free.The pressure on the hands is so much greater.2 thoughts:1)focus on accelerating through the pull and into the recovery,2) focus on getting your elbows as close together on the recovery as you comfortably can.

Jimbosback
July 8th, 2010, 11:24 PM
I don't really ever feel much with my forearms (just my hands), even if I do a fist drill. Maybe the lack of feel is because I have extremely long, relatively thin forearms (compared to some of the forearms I see on breastrokers).

I wouldn't worry so much about the long arms. The sixty-something who smoked me in the 50M BR at my last meet had the longest arms I've ever seen. :)

You will find something that works for you.

maxx12345678
July 22nd, 2010, 08:23 PM
hey, are you supposed to shoot your arms out really fast BEFORE you put your face in the water? my friend, who is really good at breaststroke, says to do this, as it creates a current. wat do you guys think?

Allen Stark
July 23rd, 2010, 06:52 PM
hey, are you supposed to shoot your arms out really fast BEFORE you put your face in the water? my friend, who is really good at breaststroke, says to do this, as it creates a current. wat do you guys think?

Yes,as noted in my reply on your other thread.

maxx12345678
July 23rd, 2010, 07:18 PM
Yes,as noted in my reply on your other thread.
haha,yea thanks cause i was really confused:bow:

maxx12345678
July 23rd, 2010, 07:19 PM
Yes,as noted in my reply on your other thread.
haha,yea thanks cause i was really confused:bow:

Zulu
August 15th, 2010, 10:43 PM
Hooray for Breaststroke!!! I've been away from swimming since college (20 years) and now my daughter is a swimmer. She started off as a backstroker, and moved on to be a champ at breaststroke (yay). watching her has motivated me to get back into the pool and I've learned so much sitting in at her clinics and practices. I told her I would get back into a race this Summer and I did, but it was a parent's relay. So, I told her I'm going to try to get my 100m breast down and go to Summer nationals next year...many laps, turns, starts, and pullouts from now.

She rocks.

ElaineK
August 16th, 2010, 08:39 AM
Hooray for Breaststroke!!! I've been away from swimming since college (20 years) and now my daughter is a swimmer. She started off as a backstroker, and moved on to be a champ at breaststroke (yay). watching her has motivated me to get back into the pool and I've learned so much sitting in at her clinics and practices. I told her I would get back into a race this Summer and I did, but it was a parent's relay. So, I told her I'm going to try to get my 100m breast down and go to Summer nationals next year...many laps, turns, starts, and pullouts from now.

She rocks.

Welcome, Zulu! You have come to the right place! In The Breaststroke Lane, you will find like-minded frogs who won't tease you about breaststroke being the slowest stroke, :blah: :blah: :blah:.

Speaking of frogs, go back to the beginning of this thread and look for any posts with a frog avatar. That's Allen Stark, the king of breaststroke in these forums. :bow: He not only gave great tips on this thread; he watched my breaststroke events at Nationals and gave me immediate feedback and excellent advice. As a result, my times have improved a lot, since joining USMS, in February. And, I hadn't competed since high school, back in 1979.

Another recommendation: Go to www.goswim.tv (http://www.goswim.tv) and watch the video clips on that website. Great stuff! Also search You Tube for videos of races by the best breaststrokers, so you can see how the stroke has changed over the years.

Good luck with your comeback! :cheerleader:

Cheers! :chug:

Allen Stark
August 21st, 2010, 12:39 PM
I have been watching the variations in the pulls of the swimmers at Pan Pacs.Soni for instance is relatively narrow with little insweep whereas Kitajima is relatively wide.At Atlanta I got a velocity analysis and I was losing momentum by setting up my catch too wide.Now I am bringing my hand just slightly wider than my elbows and really focusing on getting my elbows close together in the recovery for better streamlining.Try various things with your pull to see what works best for YOU.

ElaineK
August 21st, 2010, 01:45 PM
I have been watching the variations in the pulls of the swimmers at Pan Pacs.Soni for instance is relatively narrow with little insweep whereas Kitajima is relatively wide.At Atlanta I got a velocity analysis and I was losing momentum by setting up my catch too wide.Now I am bringing my hand just slightly wider than my elbows and really focusing on getting my elbows close together in the recovery for better streamlining.Try various things with your pull to see what works best for YOU.

Well, as you know, with my past shoulder problems and surgery, I've had no other choice but to listen to your advice and my part-time coach's advice and go with a narrower pull. Saving my shoulders for the long haul is much more important than getting faster times. And, having a narrower pull (like Rebecca Soni) definitely puts less stress on the shoulders. Same goes for a low profile recovery on fly (like Michael Phelps) and a 10:00/2:00 backstroke (like Natalie Caughlin). For freestyle, I'll go with Lochte rather than Janet Evans! :D

Allen Stark
August 22nd, 2010, 03:53 PM
Elaine asked me about drills so I thought I'd dispense some,especially shoulder friendly ones
1)Ultra-slow BR with snorkel.It is self explanatory.The Snorkel means you don't have to worry about your head and can focus on every other aspect of your stroke.This is also good as part of the warm up.
2)The 2 inch BR kick(with snorkel or kick board.)Do the BR kick catch ,focusing on getting your feet as close to your rear as possible and turned out as far as possible.Then kick back only 2 inches so you can do the catch again.This is good for helping get the feel of the catch and working on ankle flexibility.
3)Straight leg BR kick.This one is tricky.With a snorkel or kick board swim using only the ankle snap.Turn your ankles as far out as you can and then snap them together.This helps get a better feel for the water with your feet and also helps with flexibility.It also strengthens the muscles in the front of your calves.

Zulu
August 22nd, 2010, 10:18 PM
Thanks for the links. I'm going to try to include many of these drills in my practice sessions. For now, I'm swimming on my own. I hope to find a team with a coach where I can swim soon. I'm trying to get in 4-5 practices a week and I shoot for 2500-3000m per session.

I vary my workouts but I try to get as much breaststroke as I can at each session. Probably 3/4 of my sets involve breaststroke. I'm also working on my backstroke...and I throw in IM sets.

When I swam way back when, I was competitive, but I wasn't given much breaststroke technique. Brute force I guess. Sorta ticks me off that I didn't get better coaching. I've learned so much from watching the kids at clinics and practices.

My goal is to build my swimming endurance while trying to involve all the lessons.

There aren't many meets around here, but I'm on the look out.

Allen Stark
August 23rd, 2010, 02:04 PM
Here are some more drills.If this isn't useful let me know and I'll stop posting them.If anyone else wants to post drill they find useful I'd love it.These are drills to eliminate dead spots in your pull.
1)Head up BR pull.If you have dead spots your face gets wet.This is also a good hand speed drill.WARNING:it can be hard on the shoulders so be careful.
2)Underwater BR.With water all around you it is easier to feel you arms(and body.)
3)Fast flutterkick with fins with slow BR pull.Similar to swimming underwater it lets you get a better feel for the resistance from your arms and shoulders.
4)Full stroke BR with hand paddles without using the straps.If you have dead spots ,they fall off.This can also be hard on the shoulders.
The big thing to make sure of is that there is no hesitation between pull and recovery,especially don't get caught in the "prayer position."

ElaineK
August 23rd, 2010, 02:38 PM
[QUOTE=Allen Stark;224126]Here are some more drills.If this isn't useful let me know and I'll stop posting them.[QUOTE]

Keep posting them, Allen! :applaud: I appreciate it very much; especially the shoulder warnings, so I know which ones to be careful doing. I will do those sparingly...

Zulu: I can relate! The only competition I did until this past March was in high school, 1977-1979. My "coach" was a non-swimmer PE teacher, so the first real coaching I received was right here in The Breaststroke Lane, by Allen. :bow:

I'm in the same situation; swimming 5 x week, but I've backed off the yardage from around 3,000 to around 2,500 each time, because of my shoulders. It was trial and error for the first few months of swimming with USMS, trying to figure out how much swimming and cross-training my body (and past surgeries) could handle. Listen to your body, Zulu, so you can stay out of trouble and stick around for the long haul- if that's your goal. It is mine! :D

Jimbosback
August 23rd, 2010, 03:37 PM
Here are some more drills.If this isn't useful let me know and I'll stop posting them.

No way -- please keep them coming, especially if there's some way to teach me to keep my head from popping up. :bow: <-- my head during BR when tired.

pwolf66
August 23rd, 2010, 03:47 PM
3)Fast flutterkick with fins with slow BR pull.Similar to swimming underwater it lets you get a better feel for the resistance from your arms and shoulders.

Hmm, never thought to use this with a slow pull as our AG program uses this as a way to promote fast hands and a strong 'pop' of the arms forward.

Allen Stark
August 23rd, 2010, 07:38 PM
No way -- please keep them coming, especially if there's some way to teach me to keep my head from popping up. :bow: <-- my head during BR when tired.
The standard drill for that is the tennis ball under the chin drill.I don't like it as it puts my neck in an unnatural position and under tension.What I do is take my center mount snorkel and turn the tube around so the mouthpiece points the wrong way.Then I put it on upside down and backwards so the long end goes down my back.Then if I lift my head is rubs against my back.

Allen Stark
August 24th, 2010, 12:09 PM
This is probably my favorite drill.It isn't even so much a drill as an important part of my sprint workout.
25s sprint eggbeater kick.I do them with snorkel,but you can use a kick board.I find them easier on my knees than regular BR kick.They are great for improving foot speed,give your quads an amazing burn,and since form isn't as important while doing them as it is with full stroke you can really do them to fatigue(feeling like your legs will fall off.) As to the interval,that depends on your speed and pain tolerance.I generally go on the minute or the 45 but sometimes on the 30,depending on how I feel and how close to a meet I am(don't do them on the 30 during the week before a meet if you care about the meet.)Important safety tip,do some recovery swimming after them before any other hard sets or your hamstrings will cramp up(at least mine do.)

Allen Stark
August 25th, 2010, 11:48 AM
Here is the next drill.
The lane line drill.-Standing in shallow water,bend forward over the lane line so it is resting under your armpits.Now do your pull.
This trains you to keep your elbows in front of ,or even with your shoulders throughout the pull.

matysekj
August 25th, 2010, 11:59 AM
Here is the next drill.
The lane line drill.-Standing in shallow water,bend forward over the lane line so it is resting under your armpits.Now do your pull.
This trains you to keep your elbows in front of ,or even with your shoulders throughout the pull.

Sounds good, but you wouldn't be moving due to the lane line being stationary. I wonder if it would have the same effect if you swam using a ... *gasp* ... noodle under your armpits?

TRYM_Swimmer
August 25th, 2010, 12:53 PM
Sounds good, but you wouldn't be moving due to the lane line being stationary. I wonder if it would have the same effect if you swam using a ... *gasp* ... noodle under your armpits?

Oh, no, Jim! Enough people look down on us and now you want us to be subject to more derision by using the most-hated accessory?!?!?!?!

Allen Stark
August 25th, 2010, 01:13 PM
Sounds good, but you wouldn't be moving due to the lane line being stationary. I wonder if it would have the same effect if you swam using a ... *gasp* ... noodle under your armpits?
If you you are alone in the pool you may use a noodle,but if someone sees you you must say"uh,it's not mine,I was holding it for a friend."
Seriously,a noodle is OK (if you can stand the derision,)but,perhaps I was unclear,stay standing leaning forward on the line so your feet hold you in one place.

dolu
August 25th, 2010, 04:27 PM
hi guys,
can someone help me to identify deficiencies noticed on video? I would appreciate any comment or advice for improvement.
thanks
and by the way, I swim in lane 7
swimming 1,5 year after a 18 years of break
now 36 :-)
thanks
take care
YouTube- 50P Martin Hlavatý 31,21 (5.)

ElaineK
August 25th, 2010, 06:31 PM
Sounds good, but you wouldn't be moving due to the lane line being stationary. I wonder if it would have the same effect if you swam using a ... *gasp* ... noodle under your armpits?

Noodle??? :afraid: But, seriously, I couldn't do this drill at our pool, because the Noodlers ripped the lane line right out of the wall of the pool, because they were hanging on it for their noodling classes. It resulted in a big bill for the HOA for repairs AND the pool being closed for two weeks. :badday: So, the new rule: Nobody "disturbs the lane lines" or you break you pay.

Allen Stark
August 25th, 2010, 07:18 PM
hi guys,
can someone help me to identify deficiencies noticed on video? I would appreciate any comment or advice for improvement.
thanks
and by the way, I swim in lane 7
swimming 1,5 year after a 18 years of break
now 36 :-)
thanks
take care
YouTube- 50P Martin Hlavatý 31,21 (5.) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DBNCyPWhpo)

Good pull,good rhythm.Two things I noticed.First on your breakout you start your pull too late and therefore lose momentum.Second,you are bending at the hips too much and too soon in your kick recovery which is greatly increasing your drag.You also finish the kick with your feet fairly deep.I'd suggest you practice recovery by bending at the knees only.A good drill for that is BR kicking vertically holding on to the wall with your chest against the wall so that if you bend at the hips you bonk your knees.

Allen Stark
August 26th, 2010, 08:26 PM
Another drill,this one an easy seeming one.Simply swim a length using the minimum number of strokes.REALLY work on streamlining at all times,but especially on the pull out and after each kick.The pullout part is especially important do those of you with a slow BR.For many swimmers the best way to swim BR is to do as little actual swimming as possible so for yhou the longer the pullout the better.Can you get it down to pullout plus 3 strokes for 25?2? 1?.0?1 stroke after pullout is as good as I can do in a 25 yd pool.
This is a real awareness drill.As you are slowing down really focus on maximum streamlining.

ElaineK
August 26th, 2010, 08:55 PM
Another drill,this one an easy seeming one.Simply swim a length using the minimum number of strokes.REALLY work on streamlining at all times,but especially on the pull out and after each kick.The pullout part is especially important do those of you with a slow BR.For many swimmers the best way to swim BR is to do as little actual swimming as possible so for yhou the longer the pullout the better.Can you get it down to pullout plus 3 strokes for 25?2? 1?.0?1 stroke after pullout is as good as I can do in a 25 yd pool.
This is a real awareness drill.As you are slowing down really focus on maximum streamlining.

Ande, are you out there? Remember your demonstration in the warm-up pool? You showed me what you mean by "Ride the Glide", by demonstrating your breaststroke. You made the 25 yards in one stroke after the pullout!. :applaud: :applaud: :applaud:

Allen, this drill rocks! After Nationals, I really started working on it; especially after you and I talked about my events. I do this drill in EVERY warm-up now! :D

Jimbosback
August 26th, 2010, 09:22 PM
Another drill,this one an easy seeming one.Simply swim a length using the minimum number of strokes.REALLY work on streamlining at all times,but especially on the pull out and after each kick.The pullout part is especially important do those of you with a slow BR.For many swimmers the best way to swim BR is to do as little actual swimming as possible so for yhou the longer the pullout the better.Can you get it down to pullout plus 3 strokes for 25?2? 1?.0?1 stroke after pullout is as good as I can do in a 25 yd pool.
This is a real awareness drill.As you are slowing down really focus on maximum streamlining.

I need to do more of this, though I do a lot of stroke counting in other ways. I haven't done a max dps in months. Curious to see where I am, as I am now going underwater in 4 for 25 yds.

Allen Stark
August 27th, 2010, 09:46 PM
This is kind of like the last one.
1,2,3 sec drill
Swim a length with a 1 sec. glide,then a length with a 2 sec. glide then one with a 3 sec. glide.Time each one and put the same effort into each pull and kick.What do you notice.Is the 3 sec glide OK or much worse.If much worse you need to work on your streamline &/or kick

Allen Stark
August 29th, 2010, 01:57 PM
You probably know about the 2 kick/one pull and 1 pull/2 kick drills.The 1 pull/2 kick is especially good in my opinion as it gets the glide/streamline drilled well,but I have come up with a variation I really like:
200 yd-1st 25 4 pull/1 kick
2nd 3:1
3rd 2:1
4th& 5th 1:1
6th 1:2
7th 1:3 and
8th 1 pull:4 kicks.
I like this because I have to think about what I am doing and I really like that in a drill. The pull heavypart helps me with rhythm and the kick heavy part with streamlining/gliding.

ElaineK
August 29th, 2010, 08:36 PM
I have a question I could have asked Allen in my PM, today, but I wanted to post it here, because I think it would be of general interest to other breaststrokers:

In my meet today, I did a PB in my 50 yd. breaststroke of :39.69, beating my Nationals time (:42.45). :D So, I was happy with that, of course, except for the stroke count. :bitching: I went out 13 (bad!) and came back at 16! :blush: My goal is to keep my stroke count to 11 or 12 on my 50's, but the fastest I have been able to go and keep that stroke count is :44 from a push off start. The faster I go, the more strokes it takes. In my fastest push off start, I did a :42, but my stroke count was 14. So, this leads me to my question: How do I go about getting faster AND keep my stroke count down?

F.Y.I.: I also did PB's in my 100 breaststroke (took 2 seconds off Nats.) and in my 200 breaststroke (dropped 7+ seconds off Nats.), but my stroke count went up on those races, as well. My 200 yd. went from a stroke count of 10-11 up to 12-16, gradually increasing throughout the race. Looking back on the video, was, well, :afraid:.

Any advice from my fellow frogs would be most appreciated! :D

Allen Stark
August 29th, 2010, 10:28 PM
While stroke count is important it is not nearly as important as speed.The 2 problems with fast turnover are fatigue and stroke inefficiency(spinning your wheels.)
To increase DPS work on REALLY streamlining your arms during your kick.Each stroke squeeze your biceps against your head.While there is no real glide in the 50,you want to make sure you get into streamline for every kick.Also do the drills to eliminate dead spots and the 1,2,3,sec drills.Good job though,great time drops:cheerleader::cheerleader:

Zulu
August 30th, 2010, 07:22 AM
I'd say, also try the Separation Drill. Completely separate your stroke and kick. Do not start your kick until you complete your pull and are recovered back into streamline. Do not start another pull until your kick is done and your toes are pointed back behind you. You can focus on the fine points of the pull and kick independently. Gradually, bring the timing closer. I saw it on another site and used it in my Sunday practice (Sunday is drill day).

Zulu
August 30th, 2010, 07:24 AM
...and kudos on the improvement too!!!

ElaineK
August 30th, 2010, 05:33 PM
While stroke count is important it is not nearly as important as speed.The 2 problems with fast turnover are fatigue and stroke inefficiency(spinning your wheels.)
To increase DPS work on REALLY streamlining your arms during your kick.Each stroke squeeze your biceps against your head.While there is no real glide in the 50,you want to make sure you get into streamline for every kick.Also do the drills to eliminate dead spots and the 1,2,3,sec drills.Good job though,great time drops:cheerleader::cheerleader:
Thanks, Allen! Although repetive GOOD streamlining starts to aggravate my left clavicle area* of my shoulder if I do too much during workouts, I have to really concentrate on doing it during the 200 breaststroke "race" I do each day after warm-up, as well as in actual races. I often THINK I am doing it, but I'll look at the video and still see some bend in the elbow, even if I can feel my biceps touching my ears. I worked hard to get great flexibility back after my surgery and I stretch often, but I just really need to concentrate extending my arms. I'll get Bruce to do some more filming and see if I can nail this once and for all...

Thanks for the great advice! I know you told me that at Nationals, but, like I said, looking back over the videos, I'm still not getting it good enough!

*I had Thoracic Outlet Syndrome. The surgeon had to make a 4" incision at the base of my neck, from the front to the back of my clavicle, in order to get to the first rib. The center section of the rib was removed ("First Rib Resection") to open up the space to relieve the crushing of the nerves, veins, and arteries running between the clavicle and first rib, to the thoracic outlet, then down my left arm. Forumites: Although I didn't develop the problem from swimming (I wasn't swimming at the time I developed T.O.S.), I have heard of a few cases of professional baseball players (pitchers) developing it and needing this surgery. Mommas, don't your babies grow up to be pitchers! :afraid:(Or, in my case, don't let your babies who have long necks, long arms, and a slim build grow up and do ANYTHING requiring repetitive lifting of anything with your arm extended!)

ElaineK
August 30th, 2010, 05:35 PM
...and kudos on the improvement too!!!

Thanks Zulu! And, thanks for the suggestion! I'll try it tomorrow. :agree:

swimcat
August 30th, 2010, 06:05 PM
if swimming slow such as warm up I take 8-9 strokes a 25. I havent' swam much breasstroke or fly in 2yrs. (rotator cuff). Anyway, racing I am unsure and i just don't count anymore. I try to get the most out of each stroke. If you want to get stronger. yikes, do weights.(squats for kick, and biceps for pull) and remember breasstroke and fly are lots and lots of core work. (disclaimer not that the other strokes aren;t ). If i slack off on core work like i have been doing and eating the wrong stuff, I cannot swim breasstroke or fly.

ElaineK
August 30th, 2010, 06:51 PM
if swimming slow such as warm up I take 8-9 strokes a 25. I havent' swam much breasstroke or fly in 2yrs. (rotator cuff). Anyway, racing I am unsure and i just don't count anymore. I try to get the most out of each stroke. If you want to get stronger. yikes, do weights.(squats for kick, and biceps for pull) and remember breasstroke and fly are lots and lots of core work. (disclaimer not that the other strokes aren;t ). If i slack off on core work like i have been doing and eating the wrong stuff, I cannot swim breasstroke or fly.

Thanks, swimcat. I do cross train in the gym twice/wk for 11/2 hours doing weights, core work, etc. I'm working on getting stronger. The best I can do is 7 strokes/ 25yd. and I also do that as part of my warmup.

Counting my strokes during a race has been a good wake up call. My stroke count definitely tells me what I'm doing right or wrong! If I can hold 10-11 throughout my 200, I'm a happy camper. But, of course, I would like to be able to do that AND improve my times. I just need to keep working on my streamline... ;)

Allen Stark
August 30th, 2010, 10:32 PM
Next drill.I hate this one but it is a good one if,like me ,you have trouble keeping good form on the last pullout of a 200.
Every turn in a 200(or 100 or 50) take 2 pullouts before you surface instead of one.
Don't rush it,make them both real,full pullouts.If you can't do that don't keep on as it is better to not than to practice bad form,instead go back to 1 pullout per turn and try again later.

orca1946
August 30th, 2010, 11:16 PM
I've been to many clinics ti improve my stroke - I think that you that are good at it are born into it!

Allen Stark
August 31st, 2010, 12:21 AM
There is some truth to that in that the ankle flexibility needed for optimal BR probably has some genetic component and is pretty much the opposite for what is optimal for the other strokes.That said you can always do things to be more efficient and faster.The worse your kick the more important it is to not lose the momentum from your pull etc.

bzaks1424
August 31st, 2010, 10:21 AM
There is some truth to that in that the ankle flexibility needed for optimal BR probably has some genetic component and is pretty much the opposite for what is optimal for the other strokes.That said you can always do things to be more efficient and faster.The worse your kick the more important it is to not lose the momentum from your pull etc.

I know I could just google this - but I'd rather hear it from the "master of breast stroke" as you've been called... What are some great exercises I can do at my desk while @ work to help work on my ankle flexibility? My understanding is that this will increase my abilities in all strokes and not just breast stroke (however, if I'm going to attempt to beat Elaine, I need all the help I can get!)

Allen Stark
August 31st, 2010, 11:01 AM
I know I could just google this - but I'd rather hear it from the "master of breast stroke" as you've been called... What are some great exercises I can do at my desk while @ work to help work on my ankle flexibility? My understanding is that this will increase my abilities in all strokes and not just breast stroke (however, if I'm going to attempt to beat Elaine, I need all the help I can get!)
The easiest and probably safest is to simply work on getting your feet into the BR catch position and holding it,attempting to turn your toes out as far as possible.Do this for about 30 sec. at a time several times per day.

bzaks1424
August 31st, 2010, 11:03 AM
The easiest and probably safest is to simply work on getting your feet into the BR catch position and holding it,attempting to turn your toes out as far as possible.Do this for about 30 sec. at a time several times per day.

During this time, I want to keep my knees as close together as possible, right?

Allen Stark
August 31st, 2010, 11:09 AM
During this time, I want to keep my knees as close together as possible, right?

Not necessarily.During the stroke you want to have your knees about 2 fists apart at the catch,but for the stretch I don't think it matters(I never thought of that and am just playing with it now to see and I seem to get a good stretch regardless of my knee position.)

bzaks1424
August 31st, 2010, 11:17 AM
Not necessarily.During the stroke you want to have your knees about 2 fists apart at the catch,but for the stretch I don't think it matters(I never thought of that and am just playing with it now to see and I seem to get a good stretch regardless of my knee position.)

I suppose I have some work to do .... I took this from my camera phone about 5 minutes ago.

philoswimmer
August 31st, 2010, 12:19 PM
Congrats on the great improvement, Elaine -- that's awesome!

TRYM_Swimmer
August 31st, 2010, 12:57 PM
I've been to many clinics ti improve my stroke - I think that you that are good at it are born into it!

I agree that it is probably a bit genetic. Out of seven kids in our family, six of us swam competitively, at least for four or five years, and all of us were best at Breaststroke, although the coaches thought my youngest sister would be a Backstroker. My feet turn out when my knees are straight.

If I wasn't so lazy, I might do some of those drills and maybe get close to being as fast as Allen, which I was in the mid 70's.

gobears
August 31st, 2010, 01:31 PM
I agree that it is probably a bit genetic. Out of seven kids in our family, six of us swam competitively, at least for four or five years, and all of us were best at Breaststroke, although the coaches thought my youngest sister would be a Backstroker. My feet turn out when my knees are straight..

I do think there is something about genetic hip and leg flexibility that helps with breaststroke. As a natural breaststroke swimmer, I could never comfortably sit "Indian Style" (now more politically correctly called "criss-cross-applesauce") as a kid. I found it much more comfortable to sit with my feet out to the sides (breaststroke style). My oldest son is a natural breaststroke swimmer and when he lays down on his back his feet fall completely flat pointing outward toward the walls.

That said, neither of us can kick freestyle worth a damn. And, I once had a swim coach tell me my "breaststroker" running form was the ugliest he'd ever seen. :afraid:

Thrashing Slug
August 31st, 2010, 01:37 PM
I suppose I have some work to do .... I took this from my camera phone about 5 minutes ago.

Based on that stretch it would seem that I am genetically predisposed to breaststroke. See picture 1. Before you get jealous though, check out picture 2, which shows the bane of my swimming existence - a total lack of ankle flexibility in the other 3 strokes. It may look like my foot is just casually resting there, but in fact I am straining as hard as I can to point my toe.

philoswimmer
August 31st, 2010, 01:57 PM
Wow... following this discussion I wonder whether breastrokers should try to take up ballet, which would work on the turning-out flexibility as well as the toe pointing flexibility.

ElaineK
August 31st, 2010, 02:12 PM
I(however, if I'm going to attempt to beat Elaine, I need all the help I can get!)

:D :D :D

ElaineK
August 31st, 2010, 02:16 PM
Congrats on the great improvement, Elaine -- that's awesome!

Thanks, Philo! I appreciate it! :D

ElaineK
September 1st, 2010, 02:25 PM
While stroke count is important it is not nearly as important as speed.The 2 problems with fast turnover are fatigue and stroke inefficiency(spinning your wheels.)
To increase DPS work on REALLY streamlining your arms during your kick.Each stroke squeeze your biceps against your head.While there is no real glide in the 50,you want to make sure you get into streamline for every kick.Also do the drills to eliminate dead spots and the 1,2,3,sec drills.Good job though,great time drops:cheerleader::cheerleader:

Good news to report, Allen: Today, I did my timed 200 breaststroke, after warm-up, like always, REALLY concentrating on my streamline, as you suggested. I did a PB of 3:20 from a push off (Sunday's PB from the blocks was 3:20.44). I'm getting there! My next goal is 3:16.89, so I can make it to the "A" category on the SCY Motivational Chart. :D

ElaineK
September 1st, 2010, 02:41 PM
I know I could just google this - but I'd rather hear it from the "master of breast stroke" as you've been called... What are some great exercises I can do at my desk while @ work to help work on my ankle flexibility? My understanding is that this will increase my abilities in all strokes and not just breast stroke (however, if I'm going to attempt to beat Elaine, I need all the help I can get!)

Here is a great video I grabbed from the Swim Myth #9 thread:
http://www.goswim.tv/entries/3959/dr...exercises.html

I had a serious case of tarsal tunnel syndrome, a few years ago, so I started doing these same exercises (learned from another source). They are awesome for ankle flexibility, as well as foot problems!

bzaks1424
September 1st, 2010, 03:14 PM
Here is a great video I grabbed from the Swim Myth #9 thread:
http://www.goswim.tv/entries/3959/dr...exercises.html

I had a serious case of tarsal tunnel syndrome, a few years ago, so I started doing these same exercises (learned from another source). They are awesome for ankle flexibility, as well as foot problems!

Unfortunately - Copy and paste is kind of weak here:
http://www.goswim.tv/entries/3959/dryland---ankle-flexibility-exercises.html

ElaineK
September 1st, 2010, 03:55 PM
Unfortunately - Copy and paste is kind of weak here:
http://www.goswim.tv/entries/3959/dryland---ankle-flexibility-exercises.html

Thanks! I should have done it that way, as well...

Allen Stark
September 1st, 2010, 08:48 PM
I said I like drills that make me concentrate and this one really does.
Swim BR,first stroke kick left leg only,next stroke kick right leg only,third stroke both legs,repeat.Focusing on one leg at a time makes it easier to work on leg position,but also you have to really focus on timing or it falls apart.

sjstuart
September 2nd, 2010, 09:52 AM
There is some truth to that in that the ankle flexibility needed for optimal BR probably has some genetic component and is pretty much the opposite for what is optimal for the other strokes.

This is something I wonder about.

Like many on this thread, I am a "natural" breaststroker, with a good BR kick and lousy ankle extension. My BR kick is much faster than my flutter kick. I'm considering working seriously on my ankle flexibility in order to improve my freestyle kick. If I do, will it hurt my breaststroke? Or is it possible to improve in one without damaging the other?

philoswimmer
September 2nd, 2010, 11:32 AM
This is something I wonder about.

Like many on this thread, I am a "natural" breaststroker, with a good BR kick and lousy ankle extension. My BR kick is much faster than my flutter kick. I'm considering working seriously on my ankle flexibility in order to improve my freestyle kick. If I do, will it hurt my breaststroke? Or is it possible to improve in one without damaging the other?

Good question. Am I unusual here in just being a good kicker, period? (as compared to people who swim at the same speed as me, and as compared to my pulling).

Thrashing Slug
September 2nd, 2010, 12:37 PM
This is something I wonder about.

Like many on this thread, I am a "natural" breaststroker, with a good BR kick and lousy ankle extension. My BR kick is much faster than my flutter kick. I'm considering working seriously on my ankle flexibility in order to improve my freestyle kick. If I do, will it hurt my breaststroke? Or is it possible to improve in one without damaging the other?

Nope. Based on my experience with stretching every day and using The Rack, I can say unequivocally that improving flutter kick flexibility will not hurt your breaststroke flexibility.

Allen Stark
September 2nd, 2010, 01:18 PM
Nope. Based on my experience with stretching every day and using The Rack, I can say unequivocally that improving flutter kick flexibility will not hurt your breaststroke flexibility.

I think that is true.
Also-next drill
This is one of my favorites
BR kick on your back.Tilt your chin down a little so you can watch your legs.Your knees shouldn't break the surface and you can see if your knees get too far apart.

sjstuart
September 2nd, 2010, 01:56 PM
Based on my experience with stretching every day and using The Rack, I can say unequivocally that improving flutter kick flexibility will not hurt your breaststroke flexibility.

Good to know.

I have a Rack, too, but keep finding excuses not to actually use it. Strike one excuse off the list.

ElaineK
September 2nd, 2010, 02:50 PM
I think that is true.
Also-next drill
This is one of my favorites
BR kick on your back.Tilt your chin down a little so you can watch your legs.Your knees shouldn't break the surface and you can see if your knees get too far apart.

This is a great one; I do it all the time! :applaud: If I may add to it... Keep your arms straight to the side of each leg and make sure the back of your ankles will fit between your thumbs (which are next to your thighs) and your index fingers. Your knees should be 2 fists apart for this drill. The idea behind the ankles to hands part is to make sure you are keeping your kick narrow enough.

TRYM_Swimmer
September 2nd, 2010, 04:47 PM
I think that is true.
Also-next drill
This is one of my favorites
BR kick on your back.Tilt your chin down a little so you can watch your legs.Your knees shouldn't break the surface and you can see if your knees get too far apart.

I do that one, as I saw it mentioned a number of years ago as a way to keep your knees together.

ElaineK
September 5th, 2010, 05:27 PM
Hey there, fellow frogs!

I would appreciate it greatly if you would take a look at the following clips and provide constructive criticism of my breaststroke. In one, I'm swimming at a slower pace than the other. (Of course, neither are exactly fast when you're a newbie like me. :) )
Allen, I would especially appreciate your feedback, since I have been trying to put your great tips to use in my stroke. Unfortunately, I think this is about as streamline as I can get my arms...

Thank you very much!

Cheers!
:chug:
YouTube- ElaineK-Breaststroke2.MOV

YouTube- ElaineK-Breaststroke.MOV

orca1946
September 5th, 2010, 05:37 PM
It looks like a nice tight , quick kick to me. I would like mine to look like that.

ElaineK
September 5th, 2010, 06:03 PM
It looks like a nice tight , quick kick to me. I would like mine to look like that.

Thanks, Orca! :)

JimRude
September 5th, 2010, 06:17 PM
My :2cents::

Video 2
- knees are too far apart at start of kick
- knees come too far forward during kick - feet up to butt, not knees forward (think hamstrings, not hip flexors)
- elbows come too far back on arm pull
- after initial hand scull out, you need to be far more aggressive with speed and power of arm pull - there is not enough acceleration

Video 1
- much better than Video 2, but you need some streamlined glide after each stroke
- knees still too wide at start of kick

YMMV.

ElaineK
September 5th, 2010, 06:33 PM
My :2cents::

Video 2
- knees are too far apart at start of kick
- knees come too far forward during kick - feet up to butt, not knees forward (think hamstrings, not hip flexors)
- elbows come too far back on arm pull
- after initial hand scull out, you need to be far more aggressive with speed and power of arm pull - there is not enough acceleration

Video 1
- much better than Video 2, but you need some streamlined glide after each stroke
- knees still too wide at start of kick

YMMV.
Yep, I agree with everything you said. When I'm swimming, I feel like I'm doing these things, but, I look at the video after and think :shakeshead: .
Avoiding RSI's (repetitive stress injuries) is HUGE with me, because I have had so many from various other fitness and work-related activities. (My mind is willing but the body, well, ...) So, my kick isn't as narrow as it should be. I'm trying, though, to at least keep my kick narrower in competition. I'll try another video and really concentrate on my kick and see what I can do. I know this is something Allen had pointed out at Nationals, as well.

Thanks for your :2cents:, Jim!

Allen Stark
September 6th, 2010, 05:48 PM
Hey there, fellow frogs!

I would appreciate it greatly if you would take a look at the following clips and provide constructive criticism of my breaststroke. In one, I'm swimming at a slower pace than the other. (Of course, neither are exactly fast when you're a newbie like me. :) )
Allen, I would especially appreciate your feedback, since I have been trying to put your great tips to use in my stroke. Unfortunately, I think this is about as streamline as I can get my arms...

Thank you very much!

Cheers!
:chug:
YouTube- ElaineK-Breaststroke2.MOV (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVel8ksBy2k)

YouTube- ElaineK-Breaststroke.MOV (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2W5zkzfbwpE)


Sorry I'm late,out of town for weekend.First,it looks better than at Nats.I totally agree with Jim,in addition you are really rushing your pullout.In the first one you especially rushed starting the pull.You've got a good push off the wall,use it.In the second,you rushed both the pull and kick and I think you would have been faster to glide more.Also in the first video I really liked your timing,but in the second I thought your pull was rushed and you had some overlap of pull and kick.I know you were sprinting and that some BR sprinters have some overlap,but you have a strong kick and it looked like starting the pull early lost you some momentum.
These are fairly picky points,really good job overall. :cheerleader:

Allen Stark
September 6th, 2010, 06:03 PM
Next drill,
Pullout without the pull.
It's just pushoff,dolphin kick,BR kick,breakout.
The idea is to really focus on the dolphin kick(and the BR kick and the breakout.)The dolphin kick in BR isn't exactly like any other dolphin kick;you only get one so you want to make the most of it.Start it by raising your legs and slightly arching your back to maximize the distance you can kick down.

ElaineK
September 6th, 2010, 06:34 PM
Sorry I'm late,out of town for weekend.First,it looks better than at Nats.I totally agree with Jim,in addition you are really rushing your pullout.In the first one you especially rushed starting the pull.You've got a good push off the wall,use it.In the second,you rushed both the pull and kick and I think you would have been faster to glide more.Also in the first video I really liked your timing,but in the second I thought your pull was rushed and you had some overlap of pull and kick.I know you were sprinting and that some BR sprinters have some overlap,but you have a strong kick and it looked like starting the pull early lost you some momentum.
These are fairly picky points,really good job overall. :cheerleader:
Allen, your apologizing??? You're helping me, AGAIN, and you're not late for anything. THANK YOU!!! :D

Well, it appears I have overcompensated, regarding the pullout. The Athlete Village coach said I took too long on my pullouts (200 breaststroke), so I've been speeding it up- too much! I'll start watching the tiles in the black line and concentrate on slowing it back down- but not too much.

Thanks for your feedback on my timing, too. I'll keep working on it! I'm glad to hear it's looking better than at Nats., though. I'm faster (7 seconds on the 200 and almost 3 on the 50), so I guess some things in my stroke are going better now. But, I know there is room for PLENTY of improvement... :agree:

Thanks for the :cheerleader: !!!

bzaks1424
September 7th, 2010, 09:41 AM
When I do my ankle stretches - do I turn my knees out? or do my best to keep them straight forward? I pretty much try to stretch them whenever I'm just at my desk at work (all the time)

Allen Stark
September 7th, 2010, 06:20 PM
When I do my ankle stretches - do I turn my knees out? or do my best to keep them straight forward? I pretty much try to stretch them whenever I'm just at my desk at work (all the time)

I'd say forward as that is the direction they should face when swimming.

Allen Stark
September 7th, 2010, 06:30 PM
Next drill
Flat wall turns
If that is what you have at your pool you have probably wished for gutters,but turning without using the gutter can help you to turn faster.If you have gutters practice some turns without using them.If you don't use the gutter you can't grab the gutter.Grabbing the gutter isn't of itself bad,it just makes it too easy to twist which slows you down(except for the 1/4 turn that is part of "elbow the robber.")
You want to just push with your trailing arm to rotate you.

rtodd
September 7th, 2010, 08:39 PM
Like others mention, your elbows are coming back too far. Concentrate on high elbows with vertical forearms during the pull and squeeze those elbows together, not letting them get beyond your chest. If you don't have monster power, don't let the outsweep be too big or you will be late recovering. Your recovery should be high and quick with your hands closer to the surface. Try getting at least your thumbs to break the surface on recovery. Try to get recovered and fully extended just prior to dropping your had back in line while keeping those hands and arms near the surface. The momentum of your arms coming to full extension will pull your upper body down into alignment just at the moment of kicking. Ride that glide a bit longer before initiating the outsweep, even a few tenths of a second. Repeat as many times as ecessary untill you reach the touchpad!