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ande
April 25th, 2010, 10:45 AM
The Sprint Free Lane

If you could be a sprinter, you would.
We get more rest.
We don't train as far but we go faster.
Every move matters.
We're fast twitch. We're strong. We're fierce.
It's adrenalin
We get the glory

50's & 100's are our thing, we wish we could race 25's & 75's, we think of 200's as distance & tend to split longer races quite badly because we have no sense of pace. But it proves to ourselves, our coaches & friends that we have absolutely no business in any race over a 100.

100m Freestyle world record, Cesar Cielo Filho - YouTube

What did you do in practice today?


the breastroke lane


The Middle Distance Lane


The Backstroke Lane


The Butterfly Lane


The SDK Lane


The Taper Lane


The Distance Lane


The IM Lane


The Sprint Free Lane


The Pool Deck


Women's Locker Room


Men's Locker Room

funkyfish
April 25th, 2010, 02:31 PM
Recently I've been stringing my 25yd sprints into 100yd swims. First 25 is all out, then use the remaining 75yds as a recovery swim. Will do sets of 3s on a 2:00 interval, rest 1 minute, then start the next set. I'll also change things up by doing the 1st 25 no breath, hit the turn, and try 3 sdks + 2 strokes before my 1st breath.

As an aside, I find sprint training tougher than workout swimming. It's shorter, but hurts much more (at least for me).
:banana:

Allen Stark
April 25th, 2010, 05:23 PM
Recently I've been stringing my 25yd sprints into 100yd swims. First 25 is all out, then use the remaining 75yds as a recovery swim. Will do sets of 3s on a 2:00 interval, rest 1 minute, then start the next set. I'll also change things up by doing the 1st 25 no breath, hit the turn, and try 3 sdks + 2 strokes before my 1st breath.

As an aside, I find sprint training tougher than workout swimming. It's shorter, but hurts much more (at least for me).
:banana:

I do something very similar on my sprint days,except I do the 1st 25 BR(because I'm a breaststroker.)

Speedo
April 27th, 2010, 03:31 PM
Recently I've been stringing my 25yd sprints into 100yd swims. First 25 is all out, then use the remaining 75yds as a recovery swim. Will do sets of 3s on a 2:00 interval, rest 1 minute, then start the next set. I'll also change things up by doing the 1st 25 no breath, hit the turn, and try 3 sdks + 2 strokes before my 1st breath.

As an aside, I find sprint training tougher than workout swimming. It's shorter, but hurts much more (at least for me).
:banana:We often do something similar to this, called Popov 100s. We do between 8 and 12 of them on 1:50 or so. Swim the first 35 all out, and the last 65 slower but with a strong 6-beat kick. Sometimes you have to switch strokes between the 35 and 65. This is definitely painful and probably not pure speed work, but similar to what you are describing. If you like what you are doing, give these a try.

FlyQueen
April 27th, 2010, 04:05 PM
Tonight I am supposed to do a threshold set of: 8 x 100 on 2:00 BPA (Best Possible Average)

Then two all out 100s straight and two all out 50s straight both with lots of rest ... does anyone but a sprinter whine about a 1,000 yards?

Chris Stevenson
April 27th, 2010, 06:21 PM
Tonight I am supposed to do a threshold set of: 8 x 100 on 2:00 BPA (Best Possible Average)

Then two all out 100s straight and two all out 50s straight both with lots of rest ... does anyone but a sprinter whine about a 1,000 yards?

You're in the wrong lane...middle-distance is another thread.:)

Nothing easy about that set.

FlyQueen
April 28th, 2010, 11:44 AM
You're in the wrong lane...middle-distance is another thread.:)

Nothing easy about that set.

Sprinters don't just do "easy sets". I actually didn't get around to this last night. I was fried after training and there was a major lack of pool space.

I might do 5 x 100 on 2:00. I like threshold sets. I die like a dog and it hurts, but I like it. I have a tiny bit of the masochistic mid-d/distance mentality but can only go all out for 75-100 yards.

Chris Stevenson
April 28th, 2010, 12:16 PM
Sprinters don't just do "easy sets".

My comment was in response to you wondering whether only sprinters would whine about 1000-yard sets.

FlyQueen
April 28th, 2010, 12:29 PM
My comment was in response to you wondering whether only sprinters would whine about 1000-yard sets.

Gotcha! Chris, is there a set that makes you whine? Lots of breaststroke perhaps?

qbrain
April 28th, 2010, 12:32 PM
Gotcha! Chris, is there a set that makes you whine? Lots of breaststroke perhaps?

A forced warm down longer than a 100. I don't think Chris could handle a nice ez 300 without the use of colorful language.

KEWebb18
May 12th, 2010, 09:42 PM
I had to search through several pages of this forum to find this thread.
I figured it is to do the fact that the sprint free swimmers don't have time to post on the forums, with all of our sprinting that is tiring us out.

I tried to do a sprint-oriented workout with our group today. I think from now on that I will keep those workouts for my solo swimming days.

One of my favorite sets is 50 repeats (not sure on the interval) going under your second 50 of your goal 100 on each one from a push.

fmracing
May 13th, 2010, 08:21 AM
One of my favorite sets is 50 repeats (not sure on the interval) going under your second 50 of your goal 100 on each one from a push.

As a sprinter one of my favorite sets in college was 20 x 10yard sprints on 2:00 while the distance people got to do 6x800's :) For some reason they didn't seem to have appreciation for all the hard work we were doing in those 10 yards. :D

orca1946
May 13th, 2010, 11:34 AM
I used to have 7 fast twich fiber, but now I only have 3 - so I do distance !

pwolf66
May 13th, 2010, 12:11 PM
Well, I'm starting to feel a little sprinter-ish lately. Hopefully that will call thru Sunday afternoon.

It's all about that feeling, true sprinters know that feeling, right at edge when you're thundering down the pool and you're feeling good and then BOOM, Captain Lactic Acid drops on you with both feet from a height of 6 feet.

Sure, distance folks have to deal with the Captain but it's more like the He grabs ahold of you and slowly pulls himself up your body.

The difference between distance and sprinting with regards to the Captain is the difference between analog (slowly climbs) and digital (one moment you're fine and the next you're a thrashing slug)

swimshark
May 13th, 2010, 02:34 PM
Well, I'm starting to feel a little sprinter-ish lately. Hopefully that will call thru Sunday afternoon.

It's all about that feeling, true sprinters know that feeling, right at edge when you're thundering down the pool and you're feeling good and then BOOM, Captain Lactic Acid drops on you with both feet from a height of 6 feet.

Sure, distance folks have to deal with the Captain but it's more like the He grabs ahold of you and slowly pulls himself up your body.

The difference between distance and sprinting with regards to the Captain is the difference between analog (slowly climbs) and digital (one moment you're fine and the next you're a thrashing slug)

Paul, I've had that twice in the last week. Huge shakes and feeling like I was going to pass out for a long time after a fast sprint. Not a good feeling. I'll go back to the distance lane, thank you.

pwolf66
May 13th, 2010, 03:33 PM
Paul, I've had that twice in the last week. Huge shakes and feeling like I was going to pass out for a long time after a fast sprint. Not a good feeling. I'll go back to the distance lane, thank you.

Sprinting can be scary. I had the same thing happen this morning after I blasted out a very surprising 50.

KEWebb18
June 1st, 2010, 07:31 PM
Ok, I pretty much know only 2 "sprint" sets to do for my workouts, 50's free on 3:00 all out and 25's on the 1:00 all out.
I am trying to get my 50 and 100 free times down, so over the next few months that is going to be my focus. I am looking for some good sets (I have read a few from Fort's blog) to incorporate into my training. FYI, I do most of my training solo due to my work schedule.
What are your favorite sprint sets?

Chris Stevenson
June 2nd, 2010, 01:46 PM
What are your favorite sprint sets?

If you haven't already done so, I recommend you check out the Rich Abrahams thread:

Rich Abrahams on Swimming World Morning show... - U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums

Rich says he was inspired by Erik Hochstein, who started a sprint-based thread which is languishing a bit but still useful:

Speed Zone - U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums

Good luck!

fmracing
June 2nd, 2010, 04:51 PM
Not related to the set questions...


Breakouts.

It's been probably 10 years since anyone has talked to me about breakouts on sprint races. What is the goal and how is it best executed? How much different is it from the normal race pace 50 sprint stroke? If different, how many strokes to the breakout before returning to the sprint strokes? Do you breakout on starts and turns or just starts. How much does one stand to gain if they have a good breakout versus a poor one? Tenths? Hundreths? How important is it to a 50 free race to have an excellent breakout?

I only vaguely remember working on this one day way back but I don't remember any of it and i never really analyzed things enough back then to ask these questions. Figured i'd ask here among sprinters :)

nhc
June 2nd, 2010, 06:25 PM
The best occasion for a sprinter to use his skills is when escaping from a shark. :D

__steve__
June 2nd, 2010, 10:13 PM
How many breaths do you take for a LCM 50? Do you endure most of it without air then take a couple breaths the rest of the way, or do you use a consistant but lean, breathing pattern going from the start?

Also, do you count strokes during the race? Have my first ever LCM this weekend, doing 50, 100, and 200 fr events. Cant wait:D, but I haven't spent too much time in LCM.

fmracing
June 3rd, 2010, 08:28 AM
How many breaths do you take for a LCM 50? Do you endure most of it without air then take a couple breaths the rest of the way, or do you use a consistant but lean, breathing pattern going from the start?

I try to take as few breaths as possible. Haven't swam it in a long time but i have a 50 lcm free coming up in about a week and a half. It's my intention to do it without breathing. I n actual execution however, I suspect it'll be one breath somewhere around the 3/4 pool mark. Way back I used to do it all the time without a breath. This is for a 50 only. In a 100 race I breath every 4th stroke and go every 3rd or 5th if i need to see people in the lanes next to me.

It's funny about stroke numbers. Before I came to this forum, I can count on one hand the amount of times i ever heard anyone talk about how many strokes per length they take. This is between high school, 4 years of college, and 3 USA-S club teams. Not one coach I ever had focused on number of strokes per length. It surprised me to come on this forum and see how obsessed people are with it. Not saying it's not important either, maybe it's just something they don't teach younger swimmers? I still don't know how many strokes per length i take in a race. Too many things going on during a sprint race to be concentrating on that.

KEWebb18
June 3rd, 2010, 09:44 AM
If you haven't already done so, I recommend you check out the Rich Abrahams thread:

Rich Abrahams on Swimming World Morning show... - U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums (http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?t=16845)

Rich says he was inspired by Erik Hochstein, who started a sprint-based thread which is languishing a bit but still useful:

Speed Zone - U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums (http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?t=12744)

Good luck!

Chris, thanks for the tips. I have started on my quality focused training, and I am now tracking my distance per practice that I do fast stuff. Now I only need to convince my husband to let me go to LCM zones this summer to test out my training methods...:bolt:

KEWebb18
June 3rd, 2010, 09:47 AM
How many breaths do you take for a LCM 50? Do you endure most of it without air then take a couple breaths the rest of the way, or do you use a consistant but lean, breathing pattern going from the start?

Also, do you count strokes during the race? Have my first ever LCM this weekend, doing 50, 100, and 200 fr events. Cant wait:D, but I haven't spent too much time in LCM.


I take as few as possible. I am probably around the 3-5, depending on how I am feeling. I can usually do the first 25 comfortably with one breath, but I find that the last 25 I need more air.

I have never counted my strokes during a race. You just don't have time in a 50 to be thinking about stuff like that. I just put my head down and go as fast as I can.

Good luck in the meet.

fmracing
June 14th, 2010, 11:56 AM
i have a 50 lcm free coming up in about a week and a half. It's my intention to do it without breathing. I n actual execution however, I suspect it'll be one breath somewhere around the 3/4 pool mark.

Did this 50 LCM this weekend. I tried really hard to do it no breath... at about the 1/2 pool mark I had to take a breath to keep the turnover going, it seemed to help me to keep the rate going, but i felt the arms start to slow once again at about the 3/4 mark. Took a quick second breath but still couldn't keep the same rate I started with. Not sure if it was lack of O2 or just fatigue for someone that's used to training SCM. Kinda disappointed that I couldn't keep the rate the same throughout the swim but the time was better than I expected (26.9). I think there's more to drop there if I could just keep the rate up and only one breath.

funkyfish
June 14th, 2010, 05:35 PM
How many breaths do you take for a LCM 50? Do you endure most of it without air then take a couple breaths the rest of the way, or do you use a consistant but lean, breathing pattern going from the start?

Also, do you count strokes during the race? Have my first ever LCM this weekend, doing 50, 100, and 200 fr events. Cant wait:D, but I haven't spent too much time in LCM.

The last 50m lcm free race I did was two days ago. I had been working on limiting my breath count because, after doing some timed 25yd sprints, I've found that breathing slows me down a bit. I gradually built my breath capacity to where I could tolerate a 1 breath 50yd freestyle, moderate effort (includes not breathing on the turn). I tried to see how far I could get from a push in a lcm pool, and found that at every attempt I was taking 2-3 breaths. In my race however I was able to go 3/4 of the length without breathing, and then took one quick breath and finished the race. The first 3/4 seemed fine in that the desire to breathe seemed to sneak up on me. The last 1/4 was a bit painful but not unbearable.

I would not worry about counting strokes during a race, your focus should be on the race, swimming as fast as you can. The stroke counting occurs in practice, where you work on technique and how modifications can help you reduce your spl while maintaining the same speed. This in a general way will help you gauge whether your modifications are having a positive effect. I tend to focus on spl in practice, but know that to swim fast (sprints) then your spl will increase, possibly dramatically.

:banana:

ande
August 24th, 2010, 10:47 AM
Since we're at the beginning of a new season
I thought I'd bump all the lanes to see which one is winning

fmracing
August 24th, 2010, 11:35 AM
I dunno if there's gonna be much reply in this lane... after the "50's arent real races" thread it would seem there's more people against 'us' than I ever imagined.

Chris Stevenson
August 24th, 2010, 11:42 AM
I dunno if there's gonna be much reply in this lane... after the "50's arent real races" thread it would seem there's more people against 'us' than I ever imagined.

I think there were more people "with" you than against you.

Anyway, this SHOULD be a lively thread. Since sprinters apparently spend so little time training, think of all the time you have to post! :bolt:

bzaks1424
August 24th, 2010, 01:36 PM
I think there were more people "with" you than against you.

Anyway, this SHOULD be a lively thread. Since sprinters apparently spend so little time training, think of all the time you have to post! :bolt:

Wait - you mean there's more to it than just jumping in, swimming and getting out of the pool exhausted? :D

Anyone have any fun exercises for me to build my arm speed in the water? I'm working on my kick stuff anyway - but I think my biggest bottleneck in my stroke right now is my ability to push the water by me faster.

It'll come with time, but I'd rather make it happen faster.

fmracing
August 24th, 2010, 02:02 PM
Wait - you mean there's more to it than just jumping in, swimming and getting out of the pool exhausted? :D

Anyone have any fun exercises for me to build my arm speed in the water? I'm working on my kick stuff anyway - but I think my biggest bottleneck in my stroke right now is my ability to push the water by me faster.

It'll come with time, but I'd rather make it happen faster.

Closed fist free allows for training a higher turnover but you obviously can't feel the water or work the rest of the stroke that way. :)

qbrain
August 24th, 2010, 02:47 PM
Closed fist free allows for training a higher turnover but you obviously can't feel the water or work the rest of the stroke that way. :)

Oh? Does a closed fist prevent EVF or feeling the water with your forearm? I think those are two good things to focus on during fist drill.

fmracing
August 24th, 2010, 04:09 PM
Oh? Does a closed fist prevent EVF or feeling the water with your forearm? I think those are two good things to focus on during fist drill.


Well ok, I should've elaborated what I meant. To me there's two ways to use closed fist. Slowly, to train feel for the water on the forearms, and quickly for turnover. I use it frequently as a meet nears to get used to a high turnover stroke without as much risk of pulling muscles in the upper body. This helps me get a better feel for the adrenaline of a sprint race when my arms are flailing faster than they can in just plain practice sprints.

Using closed fist slowly is certainly a decent tool to train for forearm feel and evf... though I don't really find it to be as good a evf tool as much as some other drillwork.

qbrain
August 24th, 2010, 04:41 PM
Well ok, I should've elaborated what I meant.

That might have been the reason I was poking fun at you :angel:

ande
October 28th, 2010, 11:55 AM
Tip of the Week: Freestyle Stroke Analysis with Eddie Reese (http://tv.swimmingworldmagazine.com/shows/the-morning-swim-show/morning-swim-show-tip-of-the-week/6720)

__steve__
October 28th, 2010, 01:23 PM
kick 50M faster

fmracing
October 28th, 2010, 03:41 PM
How does one know when their kick is essentially as good as it can get for sprint freestyle events? Is there an upper bound or end goal for working on one's flutter kick?

ande
October 28th, 2010, 09:06 PM
keep doing the "help my flutter kick is horrible" program until
you can flutter kick 50 yards with a board
under 27 if you're male or
under 30 if you're female

everybody can improve their kick and it's well worth your time to improve it



How does one know when their kick is essentially as good as it can get for sprint freestyle events?
Is there an upper bound or end goal for working on one's flutter kick?

fmracing
October 28th, 2010, 09:34 PM
keep doing the "help my flutter kick is horrible" (http://www.usms.org/forums/showpost.php?p=133004&postcount=240) program until
you can flutter kick 50 yards with a board
under 27 if you're male or
under 30 if you're female

everybody can improve their kick and it's well worth your time to improve it


Thanks ... I'll do this next practice and see where i'm at :)

Speedo
October 28th, 2010, 09:43 PM
keep doing the "help my flutter kick is horrible" (http://www.usms.org/forums/showpost.php?p=133004&postcount=240) program until
you can flutter kick 50 yards with a board
under 27 if you're male or
under 30 if you're female

everybody can improve their kick and it's well worth your time to improve itCrikey- 8 more seconds...?!? I know you dive and flip w/the board sometimes Ande- what about from a push and one stroke at the turn?

Don't say 27 or I'm drivin' to Austin.

ande
October 29th, 2010, 10:01 AM
I don't kick with a board very often,
i usually sit on them between sets.

Last scy season I did a few fast 50 flutter kicks
with a board,
from a belly flop dive from the side,
one stroke into the wall open turn
wearing a full B70,
think I went 27 on my best ones

in college i went 28.0 a few times for a 50 kick from a push with a board

Eddie Reese told me
Ian Crocker kicked a 50 scy in 24.6 from a push and
Garrett Weber Gale during 2008 Olympic Training Camp after trials kicked 50 LCM in 27.3 believe it was with a board, not sure how he started or what sort of suit he wore.

Shaun Jordan did a 50 kick with a board from a dive in 23.3 right before or after NCAAs in the early 90's

Gary Hall was a very fast kicker and could kick a 100 scy around 55, think Crocker did a 100 in 54




Crikey - 8 more seconds...?!? I know you dive and flip w/the board sometimes Ande -
what about from a push and one stroke at the turn?
Don't say 27 or I'm drivin' to Austin.

fmracing
October 29th, 2010, 10:06 AM
So what's the goal for SCM? I don't have a scy pool to work out in... 30? 33?

ande
October 29th, 2010, 10:23 AM
your goal is AFAP
world class male swimmers or kickers can flutter kick a 50 SCM with a board under 30



So what's the goal for SCM?
I don't have a scy pool to work out in... 30? 33?

__steve__
October 29th, 2010, 10:24 AM
So if you can't kick sub 30(33)'s scm then there's probably more sprint speed on the table with kick improvement alone?

fmracing
October 29th, 2010, 10:33 AM
your goal is AFAP
world class male swimmers or kickers can flutter kick a 50 SCM with a board under 30


AFAP: so the answer to my original question is... there is no upper bound or end goal for flutter kick?

Speedo
October 29th, 2010, 11:30 AM
AFAP: so the answer to my original question is... there is no upper bound or end goal for flutter kick?I think what he's saying is that you'll need to set your own goals, and he's given you an upper bound (the elite swimmer reference).

Here's an idea- maybe this would help. Ian Crocker went a 21.44 in the scm 50 free- that converts to a 19.21 in scy. If he's kicking a 50 scy free in 24.6, then his best kick time is approximately 28% slower than his best swim time. Let's say he met his goal here.

Another data point. I went a 22.44 in the scy 50 free recently, and I've been hovering around 35 for my best kick time. So my best kick time is approximately 55% slower than my best swim time. Clearly, there is some room for improvement in my kick. If I had as good of a kick relative to my freestyle, I should be going a 28.7 for a 50 kick. So there's one way to set a goal based on your specific ability. :2cents:

fmracing
October 29th, 2010, 12:31 PM
I think what he's saying is that you'll need to set your own goals, and he's given you an upper bound (the elite swimmer reference).

Here's an idea- maybe this would help. Ian Crocker went a 21.44 in the scm 50 free- that converts to a 19.21 in scy. If he's kicking a 50 scy free in 24.6, then his best kick time is approximately 28% slower than his best swim time. Let's say he met his goal here.

Another data point. I went a 22.44 in the scy 50 free recently, and I've been hovering around 35 for my best kick time. So my best kick time is approximately 55% slower than my best swim time. Clearly, there is some room for improvement in my kick. If I had as good of a kick relative to my freestyle, I should be going a 28.7 for a 50 kick. So there's one way to set a goal based on your specific ability. :2cents:

Sweet, i'll use that formula then. I don't think i'm too far off the 28% goal at present, but then again i never time 50 sprint kicks either so we'll see.

fmracing
October 29th, 2010, 02:17 PM
Ok... since i rarely do sprint flutter kicks, i started with a sprint 25 flutter to see where i'm at and took about 2 min rest and kicked the 50 sprint.

Both from a push
25m sprint flutter with a board was 17 sec
50m sprint flutter with a board (hand touch turn) was a 37-38 but I could tell the last quarter of the 50 was legs going numb hehe. Based on the 28% i should be at 29.5ish 50scy so 37-38 scm isn't too far off. I kinda wish i had a LCM pool to try this in since i ate my own huge waves on the turn. I'll start the flutter kick workout once a week and see where it goes from there. I can't help but think if i had taken more rest i could've gone 35-36 today... plus i was wearing two drag suits :)

Where is the optimal depth for sprint kicks? It's really hard to keep the feet completely submerged. I've always been told the heels can be out but feet under the surface. Is this still correct?

I say still because all of this stuff seems to change. Same with that video earlier... I thought the "S curve" pull on freestyle was old school?

Rob Nasser
October 31st, 2010, 08:49 AM
I can't help but to reply to this thread!! Around here, sprinting and masters swimming are a total contradiction in terms!

I've been blessed to have coached some amazing sprinters (5'8" M - 20.4/44.8; 6'0" F 23.0/50.7 - Both in the 1990's), and one of the things that was the most successful was a bit I "borrowed" from Richard Quick called a sprint circuit. At the time, we had the luxury of having a 6 lane pool and a diving well. We would do 4 stations that we would focus on trying to transition power on land to power on water.

4 minutes per station, 2 or 3 X thru depending on time of the season:
Station 1: Vasa swim bench - High as possible and max # of reps - :45 on; :15 off; :45 on; switch stations
Station 2: Sprint widths (~15yd) - No-breathers (If fly or free) on :30. If Breast, no underwater pullouts
Station 3: Stretch cords on land - stroke specific. Max Correct Reps per :30 - :30 on/ :30 off
Station 4: Long Strech cords in the water - Resisted/Assisted 50's on 1:00. If you can't make it to the wall in :25, turn and sprint back!

I've seen a few variations that some of my former swimmers who are now coaching have made to this...

Sprinting with Ankle Weights
Sprinting with Snorkels
Sprinting with Boxing Gloves
Sprinting with Buckets or Full Milk Jugs tied to ankle bands
Sprinting with small paddles

I think with each of these, an important component would be to tie back to the idea of what it feels like to go "au Natural" and with no gear again.

Another concept I am taken with is the work that Mike Bottom and his crew have been doing for the past several year at Michigan/Race Club/Cal. I am just recently starting to take a deeper dive into the straight arm free and the dryland ideas they use. Seeing the way that Nathan Adrian uses that as a weapon over and over, it's hard to deny something very positive about it. Might want to take a look at what they're doing at Club Wolverine...

FB: http://www.facebook.com/ClubWolverine
Site: http://www.clubwolverineelite.com/Club_Wolverine_Elite_Team/Home.html

Me personally, I am still trying to channel my inner sprinter after numerous youth years at a yardage warehouse as a mid-distance freestyle/IM'er. I have possibly bulked up a bit too much, but I still think I can translate it to speed since I can still hit a low 22/high 21 at the tender age of 41. :cane:

The piece that I very loudly agree with Ande on is the emphasis on Kicking. Notice that there is no "FINS" in "KICKING". I admit that there is a place for it with OCCASIONAL use, but most all masters swimmers I see are unable/unwilling to develop a solid kick without fins, and then have the audacity to be stunned when their times stagnate or go slower... duh!

Don't forget to REST! Let your body build back up after breaking it down between workouts.. Go do a few easier distance workouts between sprint sessions so you have enough endurance to handle more sprinting!

What other ideas are out there that people find helpful towards a faster sprint time???

qbrain
October 31st, 2010, 09:53 AM
Where is the optimal depth for sprint kicks? It's really hard to keep the feet completely submerged. I've always been told the heels can be out but feet under the surface. Is this still correct?


Whatever makes you go fastest FM. Experiment during the kick sets.

I am much faster when my entire foot is out of the water vs staying entirely submerged. Not being a good kicker and not being good at regularly doing kick sets, I have not found out if there is a more optimal kick height.

Rob Nasser
October 31st, 2010, 11:15 AM
Whatever makes you go fastest FM. Experiment during the kick sets.

I am much faster when my entire foot is out of the water vs staying entirely submerged. Not being a good kicker and not being good at regularly doing kick sets, I have not found out if there is a more optimal kick height.

This is actually a tough question.. My traditional rule of thumb is to get the tip of the heel at or just above the surface where you hear a "ripping" sound effect. I would agree that you kick "faster" with your feet out of the water - less resistance, but also less water to apply force to and propel yourself against.. Of course, a lot of this may just go right out the window when race time comes. Many sprinters have a VERY high kick that I question a bit for those exact reasons. All ties to body positioning.. If the kick is to low or high, then the body is likely in an incline or decline, and resisting position - not cool.

On those same lines - I believe that there is propulsive force in both stages (upbeat and downbeat) of the kick and that equal importance should be paid to it. Put an equal amount of effort and force on both top and bottom (upward and downward) of the foot movements. If you're doing it right, you'll feel it in your butt, hamstrings, and calves, as well as the traditional quad stresses.

qbrain
October 31st, 2010, 12:34 PM
I would agree that you kick "faster" with your feet out of the water

By faster I mean the time it takes to get from one wall to the other, not tempo.


If you're doing it right, you'll feel it in your butt, hamstrings, and calves, as well as the traditional quad stresses.

If you are doing it right than you are faster than if you are doing it wrong. It is and should be that simple.

fmracing
November 1st, 2010, 08:17 AM
I can't help but to reply to this thread!! Around here, sprinting and masters swimming are a total contradiction in terms!
The more i read posts here, the more I feel like sprinters are the outsiders. Granted I'm still stuck on the USAS side of competition.


Notice that there is no "FINS" in "KICKING".
Totally agree. I gave up the zoomers like 10 years ago because imo, fins do nothing but enforce bad habits... same with paddles.

Speedo
November 1st, 2010, 08:20 AM
The more i read posts here, the more I feel like sprinters are the outsiders. Granted I'm still stuck on the USAS side of competition.


Totally agree. I gave up the zoomers like 10 years ago because imo, fins do nothing but enforce bad habits... same with paddles.Release the Kraken. :bolt:

fmracing
November 1st, 2010, 08:49 AM
Release the Kraken. :bolt:

Nah... I think all the sprint hata's stay out of threads with sprint in the name ::angel:

__steve__
November 1st, 2010, 04:03 PM
Nah... I think all the sprint hata's stay out of threads with sprint in the name ::angel:
I've seen some talented sprinters avoid this stigma by calling themselves "mid-distance".



:bolt:

fmracing
November 1st, 2010, 04:13 PM
I've seen some talented sprinters avoid this stigma by calling themselves "mid-distance".


I always preferred "long sprints" :P

fmracing
November 16th, 2010, 03:54 PM
Update:

Inconclusive so far.

Two weeks with one sprint kick workout each week and I timed a 50 scm sprint flutter from a push (one hand touch turn) with board last night at the same 37-38 seconds as two weeks ago. Should I be sprint kicking laying with elbows on the board? Does it matter how you hold the board for sprint kick speed? Seems unnatural to do hold it only with the hands extended out and the head down.

djacks
November 17th, 2010, 10:20 AM
This is actually a tough question.. My traditional rule of thumb is to get the tip of the heel at or just above the surface where you hear a "ripping" sound effect. I would agree that you kick "faster" with your feet out of the water - less resistance, but also less water to apply force to and propel yourself against.. Of course, a lot of this may just go right out the window when race time comes. Many sprinters have a VERY high kick that I question a bit for those exact reasons. All ties to body positioning.. If the kick is to low or high, then the body is likely in an incline or decline, and resisting position - not cool.


I'm a distance swimmer trying to have some fun sprinting and I'm struggling with trying to increase my stroke rate. I've seen comments from sprinters claiming that their kick helps establish their stroke rate. Could it be that a high kick (while less efficient from a purely technical view) is preferred by sprinters because it allows for a higher stroke rate?

TrentRichardson
November 17th, 2010, 12:10 PM
Technically, kicking is a very simple motion. If you don't have flexible ankles and large feet however, you might struggle with it.

Want to know if you have "flexible" ankles? Point your toe as much as you can. Is the angle created by the top of your foot and your lower leg greater than 180 degrees, equal to 180 degrees or less than 180 degrees? If you can get it past 180, congratulations you have flexible ankles. If you can get to 180 you have slightly flexible angles, certainly not stiff. If you can't get your toe point to 180 degrees you are going to have a lot of trouble kicking fast. A former gymnast friend of mine has such terrible ankle flexibility she can't do a full squat without almost falling over. She has trouble getting much past maybe 120 degrees.

What can you do to make your ankles more flexible? First of all this stuff should be done with great care, you can do serious damage to ligaments when you stretch your ankles. The simplest way to stretch ankles is to sit down with your knees bent and toes pointed, so that your heels are under your butt. The weight of your body will do the work for you.

If you have flexible ankles already and try adding in a foam roller. Place the foam roller under your toes and the end of your foot and again let your body do the work.

Another method that I personally used my freshman year of college is to soak your feet and ankles in hot water for 10 minutes or so prior to stretching. If you do this be gentle with the stretches, I have seen a swimmer sprain an ankle doing this stuff.

fmracing
November 17th, 2010, 03:16 PM
Technically, kicking is a very simple motion. If you don't have flexible ankles and large feet however, you might struggle with it.

Want to know if you have "flexible" ankles? Point your toe as much as you can. Is the angle created by the top of your foot and your lower leg greater than 180 degrees, equal to 180 degrees or less than 180 degrees? If you can get it past 180, congratulations you have flexible ankles. If you can get to 180 you have slightly flexible angles, certainly not stiff. If you can't get your toe point to 180 degrees you are going to have a lot of trouble kicking fast. A former gymnast friend of mine has such terrible ankle flexibility she can't do a full squat without almost falling over. She has trouble getting much past maybe 120 degrees.

What can you do to make your ankles more flexible? First of all this stuff should be done with great care, you can do serious damage to ligaments when you stretch your ankles. The simplest way to stretch ankles is to sit down with your knees bent and toes pointed, so that your heels are under your butt. The weight of your body will do the work for you.

If you have flexible ankles already and try adding in a foam roller. Place the foam roller under your toes and the end of your foot and again let your body do the work.

Another method that I personally used my freshman year of college is to soak your feet and ankles in hot water for 10 minutes or so prior to stretching. If you do this be gentle with the stretches, I have seen a swimmer sprain an ankle doing this stuff.

When measuring: do you go off of the top of the foot where it meets the ankle or the top of the foot nearer the toes (or maybe an averatge of the two). When i point my foot out, i get different angles depending on how far down my foot you'd measure. I'd take a pic for you, but posting pictures of feet is scary lol.

TrentRichardson
November 18th, 2010, 12:39 PM
Try this, grab your lower leg so your index finger and thumb are just above the the bottom of your tibia, the medial malleolus. Measure from that spot just above your ankle to the first joint of your big toe, the one that is closest to your ankle. That should give you a good idea of the angles I was referring too.

ande
December 1st, 2010, 05:25 AM
thought I'd bump all the lanes to the front page to encourage folks to comment in their lanes

ande
February 6th, 2011, 10:04 AM
phelps freestyle streamlines & dolphin kicks
YouTube - Michael Phelps-Freestyle-Multi Angle Camera


ian crocker streamline dolphin kicking
YouTube - Phelps Rallies Past Crocker in 100-fly


cavic dolphin kick
YouTube - Phelps takes down Cavic again, from Universal Sports


phelps turn dolphin kick
YouTube - Michael Phelps turn


cielo 100 fr
YouTube - 100 Free NCAA 2008 Cesar Cielo 40"92


Amaury Leveaux - WR- 44.94 -100scm Freestyle
YouTube - Amaury Leveaux - WR- 44.94 -100m Freestyle - Rijeka


cesar cielo 100 fr world record
YouTube - 100m Freestyle world record, Cesar Cielo Filho


cesar cielo 50 fr wr
YouTube - C├ęsar Cielo - Recorde Mundial 50 livre - 20.91


Paul Biedermann world record
200 free style Rome 2009 time 1.42.00
YouTube - Paul Biedermann world record 200 free style Rome 2009 time 1.42.00


Nathan Adrian upsets Cesar Cielo
YouTube - Nathan Adrian upsets Cesar Cielo - from Universal Sports


Pan Pacs '10: Men's 4x100m Free Relay
YouTube - Pan Pacs '10: Men's 4x100m Free Relay (Swimnetwork)

Jamesmap2
September 17th, 2011, 12:36 AM
Seeing as starts are so important in a 50 and 100, i was wondering what kind of training you guys do for them, in the pool and for dry land training

jaadams1
September 17th, 2011, 12:41 AM
Seeing as starts are so important in a 50 and 100, i was wondering what kind of training you guys do for them, in the pool and for dry land training

I usually wait till the short blast of whistles...then the command "take you mark", and at the BEEP, I react as fast as possible. :D

Reaction time, explosive legs, streamlined body position into the water, and SDK like mad till you're ready for breakout. Just practice quite a few starts on a command, timing if possible.

shannalee80
September 17th, 2011, 12:58 PM
I usually wait till the short blast of whistles...then the command "take you mark", and at the BEEP, I react as fast as possible. :D


My reaction time is pretty good but my problem is my entry, period. I need to seriously work on my starting block entries but I can't at my pool. The only place I "practice" team is at a meet. I don't go too deep in my entry but it still feels like to much of a belly flop...YIKES!

jaadams1
September 17th, 2011, 01:34 PM
My reaction time and technique just come naturally...but I've been doing it since I was 7 as well.

The Fortress
September 17th, 2011, 01:47 PM
My reaction time is pretty good but my problem is my entry, period. I need to seriously work on my starting block entries but I can't at my pool. The only place I "practice" team is at a meet. I don't go too deep in my entry but it still feels like to much of a belly flop...YIKES!

I have had this same problem for years. I'm a sprinter with no place to practice starts -- very frustrating. And I have had the same flat dive flaw. What helps me fix it somewhat is to use a neutral starting position (not too far forward or back like a slingshot) and just reach for the water making sure the hands are together before I hit the water.

As for drylands, plyos (box jumps, squat jumps, altitude drops) help build explosiveness off the start and walls. Other weights to strengthen the legs should help as well (squats, lunges). For quick hands on the start, try some med ball slams.

funkyfish
September 17th, 2011, 01:52 PM
Seeing as starts are so important in a 50 and 100, i was wondering what kind of training you guys do for them, in the pool and for dry land training
I like working on power and explosiveness for the legs, which hopefully translates to better starts and pushoffs from the walls. Lately I've been doing pistols and one-leg romainian deadlifts.

Pistols:
Hardest Kettlebell Exercise, PISTOL , from Elite Kettlebell - YouTube

One-leg romainian deadlift:
1-leg Romanian deadlift - YouTube

I also will do box hops and jumping in general. The box hops are done by squatting down and jumping onto a platform. When just jumping, I'll jump to either touch the ceiling at my gym (10') or a basketball rim (10'). I'll do these because where I swim diving is not allowed, and there's no starting blocks. Ideally, if you've got access, practicing starts is the way to go, but I think what I do is a good dryland substitute.
:banana:

Karl_S
September 17th, 2011, 02:27 PM
I have had this same problem for years. I'm a sprinter with no place to practice starts -- very frustrating.

Maybe a bit off-topic, but this problem of having no place to practice starts is a major issue for masters swimmers and someting I would like to see USMS lobby to change.

jaadams1
September 17th, 2011, 04:36 PM
Maybe a bit off-topic, but this problem of having no place to practice starts is a major issue for masters swimmers and someting I would like to see USMS lobby to change.

But in a public pool, with the pool's rules governing, this could be hard to do.

Karl_S
September 17th, 2011, 05:37 PM
But in a public pool, with the pool's rules governing, this could be hard to do.
I'd guess that in nearly all cases this is a "rule" that is dictated to the pool by an insurance company. Maybe USMS could sell "insurance" to its members that would cover them when swimming in any pool >X feet deep. Or maybe pools could offer tiered rates, if you want to pratice starts, you have to pay y$ per year for an insurance rider on your membership. Really, USMS needs to be creative an lobby for it's members to be able to practce starts.

shannalee80
September 17th, 2011, 09:19 PM
I bet there is some insurance reason why there isn't usually any diving block training available during masters swimming. Perhaps the insurance that is covered by our USMS registration doesn't cover that. Although usually when I am at lap swim or masters swim there is the diving board available in an "open area" of the pool, anyway.

Maybe a good compromise would be for us to encourage our own individual pools/teams to offer a "starts" clinic where we could pay for an extra lesson and they would have the starting blocks for us to practice. We would have to make sure there enough swim committed for them to offer it.

All I know if that the only time I EVER get to practice going off on diving blocks is at MEETS and I feel embarrassed (especially at a relay) that I even after I finish a 100 I still feel my "strawberry" from my entry. Good thing the relays are usually meant for fun and (usually) guaranteed points at a meet.

ElaineK
October 30th, 2011, 06:15 PM
Hey, sprint freestylers, I have some new videos I have posted in my home lane (The Breaststroke Lane) and The Butterfly Lane. I am hoping to make NQT's in 50 free, so I have a few videos I would like to include here for some constructive feedback. The 50 free is slow (my PB is :33 from the blocks); it's a 37 from a push off, however, this was done right after filming my 50 and 25 breaststroke with no rest. (And, the morning after a Halloween party...:blush: ). OK; no more excuses- except one: Open turns are required for me, due to Meniere's (inner ear disorder) and not being able to do flip turns without getting disoriented and seasick!

1. http://youtu.be/gzg8Csnk17c - 50 free

2. http://youtu.be/bKCJ4zmMKFw - 25 free

3. http://youtu.be/iOwbKbMAHEk - Freestyle open turn- HELP!

4. http://youtu.be/VIelJi4ygAg - Freestyle open turn- side view. HELP! It feels so much slower than my breaststroke turn. Any advice would be MUCH appreciated!

THANKS!
:chug:

orca1946
October 31st, 2011, 03:53 PM
To stop landing "flat"on starts try to push harder with your quads - calfs & toes. The last feeling from the blocks should be your toes pushing off hard. All of these along with a good upper body entry should help in a better start. And yes using blocks more often with some coaching will also help.

ande
November 30th, 2011, 04:26 PM
when the going gets tough
the sprinters get tougher

ElaineK
November 30th, 2011, 05:59 PM
when the going gets tough
the sprinters get tougher

Hey, Ande, nice job bumpin' all of the lanes. :agree: But, did you notice there was one lane you didn't have to bump? :D

FROGS ROCK! :banana:

gaash
November 30th, 2011, 06:05 PM
Any suggestions on how to practice a 'shoulder driven' freestyle slowly? I find it very difficult to practice slowly when every stroke should be immediately beginning the pulling cycle upon entry...

Speedo
November 30th, 2011, 06:57 PM
Any suggestions on how to practice a 'shoulder driven' freestyle slowly? I find it very difficult to practice slowly when every stroke should be immediately beginning the pulling cycle upon entry...If you sprint with a 6-beat kick (and a few elites do not), its hard to swim it slow without your legs sinking. Slow shoulder-driven is easier with a 4-beat kick but if you don't plan to race it there's not much of a point to practice that way. You can use fins to keep your feet up and keep swimming downhill with a 6-beat kick.

aztimm
December 1st, 2011, 12:46 PM
I bet there is some insurance reason why there isn't usually any diving block training available during masters swimming.

I can't remember the last time I've swum at a masters practice when the coach specifically said that using blocks wasn't allowed. Nearly every masters team I've ever swum with has blocks available.
Now getting swimmers to actually use the blocks is the problem. The coach usually has to coax them (and me) out of the pool, especially when it is cold outside.

Even when I swim at a local city pool during lap swim that has blocks, I've nicely asked the lifeguards, and been able to use them.

__steve__
August 31st, 2012, 09:25 AM
Does anyone sneak a breath on first stroke at breakout from the block?

I tried it yesterday and found it doesn't really slow me down compared to my breakout without breathing. When I breakout, I pop up high enough to take a full breath, and it seems to be a waste not to take advantage of it, even if it seems early.

fmracing
August 31st, 2012, 09:53 AM
Does anyone sneak a breath on first stroke at breakout from the block?

Never.

Most of my 50 frees are done no breath. One is the maximum I have ever taken and it has always been 3-4 strokes after the turn breakout in the 50.

__steve__
August 31st, 2012, 10:35 AM
I have to breathe. Imagine doing a 60 lcm. That would be equivalent to the required air, duration and effort as my50

fmracing
August 31st, 2012, 11:12 AM
Well in a 100 I breathe every 4th stroke, but never on a breakout because they are critical for the transition from streamline to swimming. If you breathe out of the breakout, it takes an extra stroke or two to get the transition complete... and you're not getting full stroke efficiency in a breakout so why would you want any more strokes than required in this phase?

My breakouts are all power and can be somewhat violent. There is just no time for a breath there with everything else that happens in transition. I suspect that if you're finding there's no difference, perhaps you have weak breakouts and have found something to address with your sprints?

__steve__
August 31st, 2012, 11:29 AM
perhaps you have weak breakouts and have found something to address with your sprints?

I will investigate

During breakout I pop out high enough for breathing to be less significant and thought it to be convenient to breathe. Maybe not and your on to something

Allen Stark
September 4th, 2012, 08:04 PM
I will investigate

During breakout I pop out high enough for breathing to be less significant and thought it to be convenient to breathe. Maybe not and your on to something

Maybe the popping out high is a problem.Ant time you are coming up something must be going down and you are breaking streamline.It sounds like you are coming up at too steep an angle.

__steve__
September 4th, 2012, 08:33 PM
I need to work on that area, especially with turns. The words "breaking streamline" is exactly what I recently noticed was happening on the 1st stroke off the walls. I think it's an old habit I've never looked at before. I should probably get more air prior to the turn and hold more of it, to keep it together just after.

Thanks more making this click

ande
September 5th, 2012, 01:52 PM
Does anyone sneak a breath on first stroke at breakout from the block?

I tried it yesterday and found it doesn't really slow me down compared to my breakout without breathing. When I breakout, I pop up high enough to take a full breath, and it seems to be a waste not to take advantage of it, even if it seems early.

in a 50? in a 100?
this is the SPRINT FREESTYLE LANE not the demented D dude dungeon

It's a BAD idea to breathe on your first stroke off the dive. It's not necessary and it's an error that will add time to your possible best time.

Have a breathing plan for your 50's & 100,
you don't need any to many breaths in a 50
Have a breath plan or breathing zones.
0 breath, as you dive in and after you touch
1 breath, breathe around 40 meters done 10 to go
2 breaths, breathe around 25 meters and 40 meters
3 breaths, 20, 30, 40


Experiment:
Do several free fierce fast 15 meter sprints for time
one with no breath followed by a few minutes REST
then another breathing on your 1st stroke
Repeat several times see if a pattern emerges
What's the difference?

I believe the diff will be one two or a few tenths slower than no breath

__steve__
September 29th, 2012, 10:17 AM
At 3:29 it appears Maksym Veraksa (on right) took a breath on first stroke (and possibly another near 35M) for S12 50M final. Not defending the method, but it worked for him since he has the WR and I thought it was interesting.

2012 London Paralympic Games - 50 Freestyle - YouTube

fmracing
October 2nd, 2012, 02:30 PM
but it worked for him since he has the WR

...Which likely could've been set faster without taking a breath on the breakout.

__steve__
October 2nd, 2012, 07:03 PM
Perhaps he knew he had it bagged and didn't wan't to push since he already has the record.

I did a test and the breath costs me 0.1 - 0.2 when taken at breakout for 25m. I'll have to do another test to see how much a midswim breath hurts me, figure how many for each course I need to optimize my time then decide from there.

What I REALLY need to work on before anything is my streamline into the water and off wall (if any). Those are killing me. Unfortunately I can't hold my hands classic style, locked in a stacked fashion because the angle it places on my trick shoulder. I have to lock my thumbs holding my hands side by side which is OK, but many times the hands dig in or out and ruin the swim. Eventually I'll get a surgeon to fix.

fmracing
October 3rd, 2012, 08:29 AM
Perhaps he knew he had it bagged and didn't wan't to push since he already has the record.

Not taking a breath on the first stroke of the 50 is "pushing" it ?

In a serious 50 free race, there's no room at all to NOT push it. There is no time for rest. No extra padding for purposeful mistakes.

__steve__
October 3rd, 2012, 08:40 AM
What is the method for requesting a split of a greater distance event ? I understand it must be submitted in writing to the referee, but is that it?

fmracing
October 3rd, 2012, 09:46 AM
What is the method for requesting a split of a greater distance event ? I understand it must be submitted in writing to the referee, but is that it?

Ah yes, the 50 free with a 450 cooldown. The perfect way to get those weird distance people all upset about their own inadequecies. :applaud:

That Guy
October 3rd, 2012, 09:48 AM
What is the method for requesting a split of a greater distance event ? I understand it must be submitted in writing to the referee, but is that it?
Page 143 of the Rule Book http://www.usms.org/rules/appb.pdf

__steve__
October 3rd, 2012, 09:59 AM
Thanks That,

MS 2.7.2 just states that it needs to be in writing to ref beforehand, thats it ?

Page142 is altitude adjust table

Rob Copeland
October 3rd, 2012, 11:04 AM
MS 2.7.2 just states that it needs to be in writing to ref beforehand, thats it ?
No. See 103.18.1(B), 105.2.2 and 105.3.6 in http://www.usms.org/rules/part1.pdf

fmracing
October 3rd, 2012, 11:24 AM
All this talk of splits represents too much talk about distance events in the sprint free lane.

__steve__
October 3rd, 2012, 11:59 AM
All this talk of splits represents too much talk about distance events in the sprint free lane.I would enter a 500 if it gave me a second opportunity to get a PB in a 50, even if it means I must swim nonstop for an entire 7 minutes without a Jacuzzi break.

That Guy
October 3rd, 2012, 12:50 PM
Thanks That,

MS 2.7.2 just states that it needs to be in writing to ref beforehand, thats it ?

Page142 is altitude adjust table

I meant 143

__steve__
October 4th, 2012, 09:34 AM
Thank you Rob. Was trying to view the pdf's on my phone which made it difficult. Anyhow, thinking of writing 50 requests for the 100, 200, and 400 frees at my states SCM event in Cola. The reason why is because I get faster with successive all-out attempts when practicing and furthermore screw up something.

Definately not the 1500 though, don't want to delay the meet - lol

Allen Stark
October 4th, 2012, 09:40 AM
What is the method for requesting a split of a greater distance event ? I understand it must be submitted in writing to the referee, but is that it?

The way it works in practice is,when you get to the meet go to the Clerk of the Course.Ask them for the request for split form.Fill it out and hand it to them.
Then it is a good idea to tell the others in your heat what you are going to do.

__steve__
October 4th, 2012, 09:56 AM
Thank you for the specifics, that's exactly what I needed. Makes perfect sense to let adjacent competitors know my plan so I wont distract them

__steve__
October 4th, 2012, 10:12 AM
After I touch in my split, when completing the remaining event on that wall can I push off (double touch) or do I need to start from the dig?

Allen Stark
October 4th, 2012, 11:24 AM
After I touch in my split, when completing the remaining event on that wall can I push off (double touch) or do I need to start from the dig?

Touch with your hand to finish that length.Hang on to the wall for as long as you need to,then push off and finish the race. I did a 100 split in a 200 BR at my last meet and a friend asked why I hung on to the wall so long after the 100 and I said" because I was tired".(He knew I was doing the 100 split,he just thought I'd swim through it.)

dolu
October 25th, 2012, 11:16 AM
hi there,
how much are sprinters slower compared to distance swimmers (for me, everything above 200m :) ) at the beginning of the season when training basic aerobic workout. I am currently in a group like this and its quite frustrating not to keep up with them
thanks

__steve__
November 12th, 2012, 05:49 PM
hi there,
how much are sprinters slower compared to distance swimmers (for me, everything above 200m :) ) at the beginning of the season when training basic aerobic workout. I am currently in a group like this and its quite frustrating not to keep up with them
thanksHaven't discovered if it's from laziness, genetics, or if I'm genetically lazy, but I'm progressively slower than distance people in events from 50 and up. The only thing I'm not much slower than distance swimmers in is perhaps the 25, but I haven't done this one yet.:outtahere:

__steve__
November 30th, 2012, 09:51 AM
This is cool - Biondi vs Jager, again? Old school everything yet very, very fast.

Found this on Fort's blog

http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/Masters/32771.asp?q=Olympic-Legend-Matt-Biondi-To-Make-Masters-Swimming-Debut-in-Long-Beach

__steve__
October 30th, 2013, 11:02 PM
25 M free in 9.28 at 2013 RG Classic!

Eric McGinnis 25 - 29

To put this into perspective, at this year's Worlds Cielo went 21.32 winning the 50 LCM free and his midrace 25m was 9.72. Here is the biomechanical breakdown the race:




surface

15m

25m

35m

45m

50m



Cielo, Cesar

3.92

5.28

9.72

14.28

19.08

21.32



Morozov, Vladimir

3.00

5.24

9.76

14.44

19.24

21.47



Bovell, George

2.60

5.24

9.76

14.36

19.28

21.51



Adrian, Nathan

3.64

5.32

9.92

14.52

19.36

21.60



Manaudou, Florent

4.52

5.24

9.80

14.44

19.44

21.64



Ervin, Anthony

2.56

5.60

10.04

14.60

19.40

21.65



Schoeman, Roland

4.40

5.16

9.72

14.56

19.60

21.85



Bousquet, Frederick

4.76

5.32

9.92

14.64

19.68

21.93





This is as pure as sprinting gets in swimming, I believe it should be recognized as an event.

Current 2013 SCM USMS Times for Men Ages 18-104 (http://www.usms.org/comp/meets/eventrank.php?Season=2013&Sex=M&StrokeID=1&Distance=25&lowage=18&highage=104&How_Many=100&CourseID=3)

So what is the fastest legitimate 25M swim ever recorded?

Fenella
August 26th, 2014, 09:46 AM
Sprinters

I am swimming for 30 mins before work a few days a week in the fast lane of a busy public pool. I find the easiest thing to do is a quick one length sprint when circumstances permit - I cant do them off a regular time due to invading breastrokers, slow bobblers, and those who think the middle of the lane is for the slowest swimmers to stop other overtaking .... nuff said

As a result I am looking at the optimum minor technical changes between swimming a 25m length or 50m , as opposed to say a 100m. There is no easily visible second clock so I am having to go by feel of how I am doing

What beneficial changes have you noticed to your stroke technique when you have sprinted faster ? Ideas please

Increased tempo obviously, but should I maintain the same stroke length as well, which seems difficult? Increased tempo also seems to mean I rotate less - is this an issue ? when I speed up I seem to swim flatter- does this go with the territory ? should I begin the catch a bit earlier ? is there really different ultra sprint stroke?

smontanaro
August 26th, 2014, 12:11 PM
I cant do them off a regular time due to invading breastrokers, slow bobblers, and those who think the middle of the lane is for the slowest swimmers to stop other overtaking .... nuff said

Nah, just incorporate those obstacles into your sprints. Whenever you encounter such people, submerge, dolphin kick past them (on your back, smiling would be a nice touch), surface, then carry on. That'll teach 'em. :D

__steve__
September 7th, 2014, 05:23 PM
From Pan Pacific Championships, Bruno Fratus goes 21.44. I noticed he (lane 3) used an unusual recovery. His right arm does straight arm, but his left arm recovers super fast and almost looks like it goes super wide and straight arm. He also surfaced very early and had the race won off the block (though he wasn't first off)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srz098MP_mQ#t=60

Notice the wake of his kick. Looks like one kick of the cycle would explosively blast water 6 feet up in the air