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ande
April 25th, 2010, 10:51 AM
D Men & Women Unite
you're a sick bunch
The longer the better
your sprints are 200's, 400's, 500's, 800's, & 1000's
You barely get going on 1,500's & 1,650's
You love 2Ks, 3K's, 5K's, 10K's, & some of you love 25K's.

Talk to each other, I have no clue what you do over there.

What did you do in practice today?


the breastroke lane


The Middle Distance Lane


The Backstroke Lane


The Butterfly Lane


The SDK Lane


The Taper Lane


The Distance Lane


The IM Lane


The Sprint Free Lane


The Pool Deck

Couroboros
April 25th, 2010, 10:57 AM
I just did my first 1650 yesterday! Dropped my time from a 24:30 last week to a 22:09.31.

Here are my 33 50s:

35.72
37.96
42.83
41.22

41.08
40.40
40.76
40.20

41.02
40.17
40.44
40.18

40.21
40.53
39.95
40.03

41.26
40.21
40.17
40.71

40.09
40.84
40.61
41.13

40.74
40.61
41.10
40.88

40.63
40.34
40.58
40.24

36.47

Calvin S
April 25th, 2010, 01:35 PM
monday was distance day:

8x150 @ 1:45
1x100 @ 1:05
6x150 @ 1:45
1x100 @ 1:05
4x150 @ 1:45
1x100 @ 1:05
2x150 @ 1:45
1x100 @ 1:05

6x100 kick @ 1:45
1x50 kick @ :40
4x100 kick @ 1:45
1x50 kick @ :40
2x100 kick @ 1:45
1x50 kick @ :40


the goal was to work on switching from aerobic swimming to fast and back to aerobic (no breaks until after the first set before the kick started)

chaos
April 25th, 2010, 01:48 PM
yesterday... 1st OW swim of 2010 in NY for me.

hudson river north of beacon 57 degrees.... 30 mins north; 30 minutes south

.... with rondi and willie.

ViveBene
April 25th, 2010, 02:02 PM
monday was distance day:

...

the goal was to work on switching from aerobic swimming to fast and back to aerobic (no breaks until after the first set before the kick started)

This is a more formal, pool-oriented way to get at an approach frequently recommended for OW: pick up the pace (sprint*) for 1/4 to 1/3 of the total time. Different applications of the principle are possible: for a shortish, 1- or 2-mile swim, 9 sprint strokes, 30 regular, say; but for a Channel crossing it might be sprint 15 minutes out of the hour.

It helps to be able to turn on and off the sprint pace for long pool swims as well. I did two consecutive 1000 yds and used the sprint technique mindfully on the second (totally forgot about it on the first!), dropping my time by 5%, even though I was tired.

*Note: "Sprint" in such cases probably means something different to distance people. For example, we still breathe.
:)

ViveBene
April 25th, 2010, 02:05 PM
yesterday... 1st OW swim of 2010 in NY for me.

hudson river north of beacon 57 degrees.... 30 mins north; 30 minutes south

.... with rondi and willie.

An hour! how nice! Lake Michigan is hovering around 51; no one-hour swims yet.

Chaos, do you sprint episodically in OW swims, as described in my above post?
Thanks.

chaos
April 25th, 2010, 02:28 PM
An hour! how nice! Lake Michigan is hovering around 51; no one-hour swims yet.

Chaos, do you sprint episodically in OW swims, as described in my above post?
Thanks.

i often apply fartlek techniques during long swims... like: 20 strokes cruise, 10 strokes fast, 20 strokes cruise, 20 strokes fast, 20 strokes cruise, 30 strokes fast.... etc to 100 strokes fast and then back down. to differentiate between speeds (and help me keep count) i'll change my breathing pattern between cruise and fast speeds.

yesterday, we started with the current (the hudson flows both ways) and finished against, so in effect, the first 30 minutes was cruise, and the way back was fast (but not faster!)

djacks
April 25th, 2010, 02:28 PM
I'm aiming for a good 1500 LCM in July.

I find that 50s and 100s don't provide the mental discipline I need. I like to keep my repeats in the 200-500 range.

Today's key set: 8 x 300 on an interval that gave me about 10 seconds rest.

ViveBene
April 25th, 2010, 03:03 PM
I'm aiming for a good 1500 LCM in July.

I find that 50s and 100s don't provide the mental discipline I need. I like to keep my repeats in the 200-500 range.

Today's key set: 8 x 300 on an interval that gave me about 10 seconds rest.

There was a good discussion in past year on how to train for 500s. As I recall, the basic unit was around 125 yd, with short rest. I'll try to find it in next day or so and post a link (deadlines now).
Do you have a goal pace for the 8 x 300, or a specific way of splitting them?

djacks
April 26th, 2010, 08:34 AM
There was a good discussion in past year on how to train for 500s. As I recall, the basic unit was around 125 yd, with short rest. I'll try to find it in next day or so and post a link (deadlines now).
Do you have a goal pace for the 8 x 300, or a specific way of splitting them?

I remember the 500 thread. There was some good info that can be applied to training for the 1650/1500.

I have a goal in mind depending on where I am in my training and how I feel. I had wanted to hold 3:36/1:12 on the 3:50 (SCY). That wasn't happening yesterday. I averaged ~3:40/1:13.3.

I seem to do better with either descending very slightly into the set or holding a goal time. I'm not too good at big descending sets.

sjstuart
April 26th, 2010, 01:00 PM
Interesting discussion on fartlek or episodic sprinting during open-water training.

It took me a long time (a few years) of lake swimming to realize that I shouldn't be just swimming at cruise pace the whole time. So I started modeling my lake swims after distance running workouts -- some easy, some tempo, some intervals. I know nothing about recommended open-water training approaches, so I'd love to hear what other people do.

My intervals are usually something like N strokes fast, then N or 2N strokes slow. N is 10 to 100.

rodon
April 26th, 2010, 01:54 PM
Any good set recommendations for training for the 1500/1650? I have a couple races coming up and would like to get my time down to a sub 19min

jbs
April 26th, 2010, 02:07 PM
Any good set recommendations for training for the 1500/1650? I have a couple races coming up and would like to get my time down to a sub 19min

This thread had some good discussions about training for the 1650:

http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?t=15315&highlight=1650

Calvin S
April 26th, 2010, 08:47 PM
today's 4/26 distance work out was:

4x50 DR/SW @ 1:00
500 pull @ 6:00/5:45/5:30 (by round)
4x150 @ 1:45/1:40/1:35 (by round)
(x3)

jgale
April 27th, 2010, 08:49 AM
Building distance for the Chesapeake race in June. Did 8,000 yards on Sunday as my long swim of the week. Other days range between 3,600 and 4,200 yards. My plan is to increase my long swim by 1,000 yards until I hit 10,000.

Sunday's workout was a long warm up with some pace and technique work, a main set of 6,000 and an EZ cool down. Main set as follows

8 x (300 moderate, 200 strong, and 100 sprint) with a brief rest between swims and a slightly longer rest at the end of each set

4 x (100 kick moderate X 50 kick sprint) with fins

2 x 100 kick recovery


16 x 25 :10 seconds rest(every 4th 25 SPRINT) IM order

tjrpatt
April 27th, 2010, 10:43 AM
this was home back in my age group days. We would warmup and then, I would have to head over to the distance lane. :( But, I do like training distance stuff nowadays.

Calvin S
April 27th, 2010, 10:58 AM
this was home back in my age group days. We would warmup and then, I would have to head over to the distance lane. :( But, I do like training distance stuff nowadays.


Swimming distance definitely grew on me. In high school I hated it. When I got to college and the coach talked with us about where he saw us training, I wished fervently that I would be put int he sprint group (which did next to nothing). Turns out, the sprint group couldn't hold it together for more than 75 yards, and since I love the 200s, I found my niche in the upper mid distance/distance group and realized putting int he long yards wasn't all that bad, as it paid big dividends at Conferences.

Ken Classen
April 27th, 2010, 11:16 AM
Any good set recommendations for training for the 1500/1650? I have a couple races coming up and would like to get my time down to a sub 19min

Did a Davis Mile (total 1650 short course yards) the other day.


1x275 (11 lengths) :10 Rest
1x250 (10 lengths) :10 Rest
1x225 (9 lengths) :10 Rest
1x200 (8 lengths) :10 Rest
1x175 (7 lengths) :10 Rest
1x150 (6 lengths) :10 Rest
1x125 (5 lengths) :10 Rest
1x100 (4 lengths) :10 Rest
1x75 (3 lengths) :10 Rest
1x50 (2 lengths) :10 Rest
1x25 (1 length)


1. Keep pace smooth/steady through out.

2. Make a mental note of your start time*

3. Always rest :10 seconds between, not :08 or :13 but :10

4. *At the end subtract a 1:40 or a 100 seconds from your over all time for your base 1650 time.

knelson
April 27th, 2010, 04:13 PM
Thanks for posting the Davis Mile. I don't think I've done this before, but I like the idea. Pretty cool this all adds up to 1,650 yards!

That Guy
April 27th, 2010, 06:56 PM
Thanks for posting the Davis Mile. I don't think I've done this before, but I like the idea. Pretty cool this all adds up to 1,650 yards!

I've never heard of it either. Cool stuff. I might repurpose it for the Butterfly Lane as a see-how-far-through-this-I-can-get type of set... I'd need far more rest, of course...


:bitching: :bitching: :bitching: :bitching: :bitching:

OK, I'M GOING, I'M GOING!!!

tjrpatt
April 27th, 2010, 07:14 PM
I've never heard of it either. Cool stuff. I might repurpose it for the Butterfly Lane as a see-how-far-through-this-I-can-get type of set... I'd need far more rest, of course...



OK, I'M GOING, I'M GOING!!!



Make sure you don't take the easy way out and start with the 25 fly! :)

Gosh, I have no desire to do that set in fly but I have done that here and there but had no idea that it was called the Davis Mile.

sjstuart
April 28th, 2010, 09:08 AM
I have done that set, too, but hadn't heard it named the Davis mile. We just call it a broken mile.

One way to do that set is with the odd reps done pull and the even ones swim. Not only does it conveniently add up to 1650, but the pull buoy is magically where you need it every time.

Swimmy83843
April 28th, 2010, 05:37 PM
[QUOTE=That Guy;212677]I've never heard of it either. Cool stuff. I might repurpose it for the Butterfly Lane as a see-how-far-through-this-I-can-get type of set... I'd need far more rest, of course...
QUOTE]


We do this set quite a bit, I usally it it where i'm doing at least the last 25 of each distance fly. I am working toward a lot more fly, but it is hard to work in, I are trying not to affect lanemates too much and/or I just get lazy sometimes.

knelson
April 29th, 2010, 03:51 PM
I did the Davis Mile last night. I screwed up somewhere because I thought I finished in 19:30. That would make my swimming time 17:50 and I don't think I was going that fast. It's possible I miscounted a 50 in there somewhere.

Doing the entire thing fly would be challenging, for sure.

chaos
May 8th, 2010, 12:30 PM
couple of fun workouts this week:

wed: 90 min 6500yds
3000 on 40 min (hold 2/3/2 breathing pattern)
10x 150 pull on 2:00 (buoy only)
10x 200 on 2:50 (100 fr / 50 bk / 50 fr)

fri: 60 min 4000yds

1000 wu on 13:30
10x 150 on 2:00 (keep under 1:50)
10x 100 on 1:15 (keep under 1:10)
10x 50 on :35 (just make 'em)

Calvin S
May 11th, 2010, 10:23 AM
yesterday 5/10 was as follows:

10x100 @1:10
300 FAST
100 smooth

8x100 @1:10
400 FAST
100 smooth

6x100 @1:10
500 FAST
100 smooth

4x100 @1:10
600 FAST
100 smooth

the 100s were hold a pace minimum of 5 seconds faster than the interval, while the 300, 400, 500, and 600 were fast holding a pace faster than that held on the previous 100s.

ande
August 24th, 2010, 10:43 AM
Since we're at the beginning of a new season
I thought I'd bump all the lanes to see which one is winning

couldbebetterfly
September 7th, 2010, 02:17 PM
Well it looks like I'm on my own here....

I did the Davis Mile this morning and its harder than it sounds. I finished in a collapsing heap in 24.24 so thats 22.44 total swim :cane:.

Any of you know if theis set should be used for regular training purposes, or is it best to do it every couple of months to see how you're progressing (or not)?

geochuck
September 8th, 2010, 07:50 PM
A Davis mile 1650 yards, is it 110 yards short of a mile???

ande
December 1st, 2010, 05:28 AM
thought I'd bump all the lanes to the front page to encourage folks to comment in their lanes

lefty
December 1st, 2010, 10:58 AM
I think it was Kirk who suggested that you best average of 15 x 100's on 20-30 rest is a decent predictor of a timed 1500. I did the set twice and held right around 1:13 (just over), so that puts me around 18:20

I am doing the 1500 this weekend, so I'll report my results to indicate if this is a decent predictor (for myself at least).

My goal is 18:20.

Chris Stevenson
December 1st, 2010, 12:29 PM
I think it was Kirk who suggested that you best average of 15 x 100's on 20-30 rest is a decent predictor of a timed 1500.

One of the coaches of the age-groupers (who share a pool with us masters) does the following as a test set. The interval gives 25-30 sec rest for most of the swimmers in the group.

Three sets of 10 x 100 on 1:30, des 1-3, hold 4-10 for best average.

He would tell them to take their HR at the end of each set, and would give them about 2 min recovery between sets. He records people's averages for each set.

The coach (Brent St. Pierre) thinks this set is a good indicator of aerobic swimming conditioning. He observed that many other coaches use some variation of a timed 3000 as a test but found that many non-D types have trouble with pacing: they either take it out too hard (and stop trying when the "fail" halfway thru the swim) or not hard enough (so that the performance is not a good predictor). He thinks his variation is good for a much wider range of swimmers.

And he gets to yell at swimmers to maintain or improve their average during that painful third set, to get every last drop of effort from them.

I agree with the value of the set. I find myself averaging right around my 1000 pace.

ourswimmer
December 1st, 2010, 01:08 PM
A teammate and I did a set one day last spring that seems also to have been a good reflection of our paces for a 1650 race. The set was 21 x 100: 6 on 1:30, 5 on 1:25, 4 on 1:20, 3 on 1:15, 2 on 1:10, 1 AFAP. We chose the starting interval for the 6 x 100 so that the 2 x 100 would be on an interval that was no more than 5 seconds over the pace we wanted to hold for a 1650, and the goal for the set was to swim each 100 at or faster than the 1650 pace. His target race pace was a few seconds per 100 faster than mine, but on the other hand I was going second so I got some assist from drafting.

jaadams1
February 6th, 2011, 12:20 AM
I almost had a major screw up today at my meet in Olympia. We arrived plenty early, about 8:15am at the pool, warmups were at 8:30, checkin by 8:45, meet starts at 9:00.

400 IM was the first race, 1 heat. I was in heat 2 of the 1650. While heat 1 of the 1650 was swimming, I suddenly realized that I had forgotten the step I was supposed to do by 8:45am (see above). CHECK IN!!! I completely missed this step, as I had entered the pool through an open side door, rather than the front door where I would have seen the check in table. OOPS!! I immediately went to the meet referee to see what was going to happen. He said that since there were only 12 participants in the race, they just left it seeded as it was with the 2 heats of 6 people. I got soooooo lucky. :bliss:
I ended up with the 1650 of a masters lifetime...breaking my age group LMSC record by 6 seconds, and going an 18:07.57!
Let this be a lesson to all of you in the distance races...remember to check in for your events. I was very lucky this time, but it could have been worse!

Also, a big thanks to That Guy for counting my 66 lengths and not getting stuck on lap 43 as had been planned :applaud: :cheerleader: :chug:

jaadams1
February 6th, 2011, 12:52 AM
Another way of breaking up a 1650 in practice rather than the traditional 11, 10, 9, ......2, 1, is doing like this:

2 x 300 @ 4:15
2 x 225 @ 2:45
2 x 150 @ 2:00
2 x 75 @ 1:00
2 x 50 @ :40
2 x 25 @ :20
------------------
1650 @ 22:00

These are just the intervals I used in doing the set. I just hate counting lengths and taking xx seconds of rest. I'd rather have a set distance and interval time to keep me honest from just swimming slower as I got tired. This really make you get moving at the end of the 1650. :cheerleader:

ElaineK
February 6th, 2011, 09:23 AM
I ended up with the 1650 of a masters lifetime...breaking my age group LMSC record by 6 seconds, and going an 18:07.57!


CONGRATULATIONS!!! :applaud: :cheerleader: :chug:

smontanaro
February 6th, 2011, 11:13 AM
Another way of breaking up a 1650 in practice rather than the traditional 11, 10, 9, ......2, 1, is doing like this:

...

I just hate counting lengths and taking xx seconds of rest. I'd rather have a set distance and interval time to keep me honest...

There was another way one of my previous coaches used to do these longer sets. I'm not sure I'm remembering it correctly, but it was a way to descend when the individual elements of the set weren't the same length. If your set was something like 400, 300, 200, 100, then you'd make an open turn after the first 100 of the 400, note the time for the last 300, then your 300 had to be faster then that. Note the time for the last 200 of the 300, then swim your 200 faster than that, etc.

Skip

That Guy
February 6th, 2011, 11:41 AM
I ended up with the 1650 of a masters lifetime...breaking my age group LMSC record by 6 seconds, and going an 18:07.57!
Also, a big thanks to That Guy for counting my 66 lengths and not getting stuck on lap 43 as had been planned :applaud: :cheerleader: :chug:

Great job James!

Prior to warmups, James asked me if I was going to stop counting at 43 as previously discussed. I said something like "I'm not sure if there are any numbers higher than 43... I'm trying to remember?" :dunno: So then prior to James' heat, I picked up the lap counter, turned it to 43, and just stood there holding it so that it was facing the start end. Eventually James noticed, laughed, and pointed at me. But once the race started, I gave him an honest count. :D

Nixe
February 6th, 2011, 09:55 PM
I almost had a major screw up today at my meet in Olympia. We arrived plenty early, about 8:15am at the pool, warmups were at 8:30, checkin by 8:45, meet starts at 9:00.

400 IM was the first race, 1 heat. I was in heat 2 of the 1650. While heat 1 of the 1650 was swimming, I suddenly realized that I had forgotten the step I was supposed to do by 8:45am (see above). CHECK IN!!! I completely missed this step, as I had entered the pool through an open side door, rather than the front door where I would have seen the check in table. OOPS!! I immediately went to the meet referee to see what was going to happen. He said that since there were only 12 participants in the race, they just left it seeded as it was with the 2 heats of 6 people. I got soooooo lucky. :bliss:


Either I'm blind or someone signed in for you. I had a late entry who wanted to swim the 1650 but I didn't want to create another heat when I had sent out approximate start times based on two heats. She was hanging around hoping that someone wouldn't check-in. The Swim Gods must have been smiling on you yesterday!

jaadams1
February 6th, 2011, 11:38 PM
Either I'm blind or someone signed in for you. I had a late entry who wanted to swim the 1650 but I didn't want to create another heat when I had sent out approximate start times based on two heats. She was hanging around hoping that someone wouldn't check-in. The Swim Gods must have been smiling on you yesterday!

It is very possible that my father who was walking around the aquatic center stumbled across the checkin table and signed me in. If that's the case...whew...or maybe one of my teammates... :angel:

slow
November 7th, 2011, 04:01 PM
I have a question about heart rate monitors. I have only been back in the water for four months after a 20 year layoff. My background was mid-distance but now I want to do 1500/1650 in the pool and plan to do an open water 5k in about six months.

Do any of you train with heart rate monitors? What sort of numbers do you look for when you are trying to build up your endurance and distance?

I measured my max heart rate in water and it was 18 beats lower than on land. So accordingly, I am averaging 70-75% MHR during my long aerobic swims of continuous 4000-5000 scy (open turns). If I mix in some random speedplay, I will see peak rates of 80-85%.

What are some typical numbers so I can gauge how I am doing? Thank you for any feedback.

rxleakem
November 15th, 2012, 09:55 PM
I swam the mile for the first time in the pool this past weekend. Here are the results.

1500 Free: 19:41.94 scm

33.63 36.79 38.35 38.29
39.61 39.65 40.20 40.14 (400 = 5:06.66)
40.67 40.73 39.71 38.62
41.56 40.57 39.59 40.51 (800 = 10:28.62)
37.46 39.64 41.38 41.45
39.75 39.82 40.51 40.59
41.06 39.29 40.08 38.85
40.09 33.35

On the highlighted 50's (#11, 12, 17, 18) I attempted to swim 25 hard then settle back into DPS focus, but the 50's afterwards indicate that it probably was not the best move. My stroke counts per lap were fairly consistent throughout, although I feel that I need to perhaps increase turnover a bit (perhaps an extra SPL or two) in order to drop time.

What say you distance folks - is there a miler in those splits somewhere? Did I get out too fast? Any suggestions for improvement or better splitting? Much obliged.

jaadams1
November 16th, 2012, 01:11 AM
I swam the mile for the first time in the pool this past weekend. Here are the results.

1500 Free: 19:41.94 scm

33.63 36.79 38.35 38.29
39.61 39.65 40.20 40.14 (400 = 5:06.66)
40.67 40.73 39.71 38.62
41.56 40.57 39.59 40.51 (800 = 10:28.62)
37.46 39.64 41.38 41.45
39.75 39.82 40.51 40.59
41.06 39.29 40.08 38.85
40.09 33.35

On the highlighted 50's (#11, 12, 17, 18) I attempted to swim 25 hard then settle back into DPS focus, but the 50's afterwards indicate that it probably was not the best move. My stroke counts per lap were fairly consistent throughout, although I feel that I need to perhaps increase turnover a bit (perhaps an extra SPL or two) in order to drop time.

What say you distance folks - is there a miler in those splits somewhere? Did I get out too fast? Any suggestions for improvement or better splitting? Much obliged.

I can tell that you really had a LOT left over for a "sammy save up" on the final 50. To drop 7 seconds off your 50s pace in the final lap is a lot. I'm sure you can hold a stronger pace throughout, though it will hurt too. I know you don't swim a ton of yardage to really condition greatly for distance swimming, but that may be what you need to do. Or possibly aim for the 1000 distance (which I prefer over the 1650).

The only time I've ever done a "sprint" (or whatever you were doing) in the middle of a 1650 race was at NAIA college nationals my freshman year. I was neck and neck with the winner from the year prior, and decided that I didn't want to wait till the final 100/200 to come down to a "showdown" for the win. I decided to try a "surprise sprint" around the 900 point of the race, and threw down a :54ish 100 when I was holding :57mids already. The other guy wasn't ready for my speed burst, and tried too late, but then blew himself out trying to catch up again. It hurt, but I won. :D

ourswimmer
November 16th, 2012, 09:25 AM
Did I get out too fast? Any suggestions for improvement or better splitting? Much obliged.

Agree with jaadams1: You did not get out too fast, but you may have swum the middle too slow. Ideal splitting for a 1500/1650 has the first 50 a little faster (maybe 1-3s) than the rest, due chiefly to the dive, and then every single 50 after that the same until the last 150-200. Then you build to what feels like all out on the last 50 even though it is really only maybe 1-2s faster than the ones in the middle.

Beginning somewhere around the 500-800 mark you should feel as if you would vomit if you went any harder. It's unpleasant in a completely different way from the burning legs and numb feet of a 100/200, or from the dull pain that sets in about 7K into a 10K. You need some practice racing the 1500/1650 to know just where that line is but I think many inexperienced distance swimmers don't come close enough to it to have their best possible races.