PDA

View Full Version : The Butterfly Lane



Pages : [1] 2 3 4

ande
April 25th, 2010, 11:15 AM
Butterfly, beautiful to watch, difficult to train.
We SDK off every wall.
We're most likely to smack hands with each other and those beside us.
Fly's fun to sprint but no fun when the piano comes down

What did you do in practice today?


the breastroke lane


The Middle Distance Lane


The Backstroke Lane


The Butterfly Lane


The SDK Lane


The Taper Lane


The Distance Lane


The IM Lane


The Sprint Free Lane


The Pool Deck

SolarEnergy
April 25th, 2010, 11:48 AM
Yesterday I did
2x 12x50 butterfly on 1:05
- First block was done with a lot of surface kicking
- Second block full stroke

That Guy
April 25th, 2010, 12:17 PM
Yesterday I did a short workout so I could be on time for my son's baseball game. Total workout was only 1600 yards, but 675 of that was full-stroke fly. Main set, all fly, focus on EVF throughout:

4 x 75 on 1:45 @ 200 pace. I think I went 50,51,50,51
4 x 50 on 1:15 25 pace, 25 sprint w/ big kick. 32,31,31,31?
4 x 25 on 0:45 sprint. 14's and 15's.

This is a good fly set because it hits different pace levels, it doesn't break me down too much, and of course it totals 600 fly. If I'm feeling good after the 4th 75, I can always just keep doing 75's instead of the shorter distances. That didn't happen yesterday though.

I log my swim workouts with 3 key numbers: total swim yards, total fly yards, and time of the workout. The fly numbers are more important to me than the others, by far.

swimmj
April 25th, 2010, 12:29 PM
I'm working on developing a fast, medium, and slow speed in fly. For slow fly, I don't kick much. My goal is to swim a 200 fly where the piano doesn't fall on the 3rd 50.

So yesterday, working on pacing a 200 IM and saving the legs for the second half of the race, I did 6 x 200 IM SCM and went out in :40, :41, :42, :41, :41, :41. Unbelievable how slow and easy a :41 can feel....

That Guy
April 25th, 2010, 12:33 PM
The fun part about the Butterfly Lane is other people's reactions. I had hecklers one time. It was awesome. No really, it was! Here's what happened: a few years ago, I went to my gym at around 8:30 pm, which is a very unusual workout time for me. I didn't recognize any of the people in the pool. In one lane, there were three women circle-swimming a workout together. By the time I finished my warmup, they had finished their workout and adjourned to the warmer therapy pool to shoot the breeze. My main set that night was 20x25 fly on :30. I did the first 25 in 15 seconds and heard cat-calling from the therapy pool: "oooo-OOOO-oooo!!! He did a 25 flyyyy-YYYY-yyyy!!!" I thought, "oh...kay" and continued my set. After the 2nd 25 (another 15), I could see in my peripheral vision that they were still laughing at me. After the 6th, they weren't smiling anymore. After the 12th, I heard one of them ask the others dejectedly, "wanna go in the hot tub?" I did 15's for all 20 25's... I guess they weren't expecting that. :D

swimmj
April 25th, 2010, 12:38 PM
The fun part about the Butterfly Lane is other people's reactions. I had hecklers one time. It was awesome. No really, it was! Here's what happened: a few years ago, I went to my gym at around 8:30 pm, which is a very unusual workout time for me. I didn't recognize any of the people in the pool. In one lane, there were three women circle-swimming a workout together. By the time I finished my warmup, they had finished their workout and adjourned to the warmer therapy pool to shoot the breeze. My main set that night was 20x25 fly on :30. I did the first 25 in 15 seconds and heard cat-calling from the therapy pool: "oooo-OOOO-oooo!!! He did a 25 flyyyy-YYYY-yyyy!!!" I thought, "oh...kay" and continued my set. After the 2nd 25 (another 15), I could see in my peripheral vision that they were still laughing at me. After the 6th, they weren't smiling anymore. After the 12th, I heard one of them ask the others dejectedly, "wanna go in the hot tub?" I did 15's for all 20 25's... I guess they weren't expecting that. :D

That is funny. I guess they thought you were showing off for them....

That Guy
April 25th, 2010, 12:48 PM
That is funny. I guess they thought you were showing off for them....

I guess it slowly dawned on them that "Behold, as I do the exact same thing over and over again, without ever looking in your direction!" is not a typical showoff strategy.

Calvin S
April 25th, 2010, 01:46 PM
my favorite sets are very similar

it's what we call "add-on" fly.

12x100 @ 1:30
1-75fr/25fly
2-50fr/50fly
3-25fr/75fly
4-100fly
(3x) descend 1-4

or 8x200 @ 2:45
1-150fr/50fly
2-100fr/100fly
3-50fr/150fly
4-200fly
(x2) descend 1-4

sometimes on the 8x200, we will do 12 instead, and stick in 4x200 free @2:20 in between the 2 fly rounds for some extra aerobic swimming

SolarEnergy
April 25th, 2010, 02:13 PM
My God. Bllllloody fast, even SCY. Congrats.

waves101
April 25th, 2010, 05:58 PM
Nice little fly set today:
8 x 75 @ 1:30 Evens - fly/free/fly, Odds - free/fly/free
Good effort on 1st & last length, middle ez.

michaelreed77
April 26th, 2010, 08:39 AM
So I just finished my first year of competition after two years of solo lap swimming. I'd like to swim more fly since I got 5th at State with a 33 low 50 fly (age 55-59). I know my form has opportunity for improvement & I think my coach can help me with that. Any thought on cross-training or my solo workout swims? I die in the last 10-15 yards. I'm averaging 12-13k per week in practice.

tjrpatt
April 26th, 2010, 04:28 PM
Here is some fly sets that I did in the last 6 months, all fly:

2 x 250s on 3:30

this set was 4x, odds free, evens stroke but I did the last round all fly
200 3:00
175 2:40
150 2:15
125 1:55
100 1:30
75 1:10
50 :45
25 :25

tjrpatt
April 26th, 2010, 04:33 PM
Last year, I did 2 laps of fly in Long course just training. some woman, "Wow, that is pretty amazing. Did you tightened up at all?" Ah no, it is not that hard to swim two laps of fly when you are in decent swimming shape.

the worst is when you tell people that you swim the 200 fly, they act like you are running the Boston Marathon. Seriously, it is just swimming 8 laps, 4 laps in LCM.

born2fly
April 26th, 2010, 04:41 PM
Tom, nice fly sets. those 2 x 250 is kinda similar to one of my favorite fly sets. which is 5x300's on 4. 1st hundred fly good pace, 2nd hundred free moderate, 3rd hundred fly faster than the 1st hundred. Definitely helps with the 2fly and bringing it home that last 100!

tjrpatt
April 26th, 2010, 05:45 PM
Tom, nice fly sets. those 2 x 250 is kinda similar to one of my favorite fly sets. which is 5x300's on 4. 1st hundred fly good pace, 2nd hundred free moderate, 3rd hundred fly faster than the 1st hundred. Definitely helps with the 2fly and bringing it home that last 100!

nice set there and a set right up my "weak last 100 of my 200 fly" alley. After seeing some of your 200 flys, you really know how to bring it home. :bow:

SolarEnergy
April 26th, 2010, 07:13 PM
Seriously, it is just swimming 8 laps, 4 laps in LCM. On the other hand, fly is the only stroke where you can technically end up not being able to finish the race. If unable to recover the arms after 125m, game over.

I think that is what keeps people away from the 200. They fear ending up going under the shame of quitting by the sides, trying to avoid being crashed by those that kept flying.

We were only 4 in our age group at the last Provincials. Sad, especially for the one who came last ;-)

On the other hand, people are fascinated by the stroke. Paradox.

Very nice fly threshold sets BTW. I can't think of any better way to train for this stroke. Kilo long sets with very little rest.

tjrpatt
April 26th, 2010, 09:40 PM
On the other hand, fly is the only stroke where you can technically end up not being able to finish the race. If unable to recover the arms after 125m, game over.

I think that is what keeps people away from the 200. They fear ending up going under the shame of quitting by the sides, trying to avoid being crashed by those that kept flying.

We were only 4 in our age group at the last Provincials. Sad, especially for the one who came last ;-)

On the other hand, people are fascinated by the stroke. Paradox.

Very nice fly threshold sets BTW. I can't think of any better way to train for this stroke. Kilo long sets with very little rest.

Someone got DQed in some fly event at Colonies Zones, "stating arms not moving simultaneously". I never heard that before.

Calvin S
April 26th, 2010, 11:04 PM
i definitely think it is more beneficial (and less suicidal) doing free/fly mixed sets than doing straight fly. when i was in high school especially, it was all fly (think 12x200 fly LCM at least once a week in the summer). the longer distances (200/300) with fly and free mixed in has really helped improve my fly while also improving my endurance (without sacrificing my shoulders).

too bad i didnt sign up for any fly at nationals : (

swimmj
April 26th, 2010, 11:33 PM
So I just finished my first year of competition after two years of solo lap swimming. I'd like to swim more fly since I got 5th at State with a 33 low 50 fly (age 55-59). I know my form has opportunity for improvement & I think my coach can help me with that. Any thought on cross-training or my solo workout swims? I die in the last 10-15 yards. I'm averaging 12-13k per week in practice.

1) work with your coach to work on your form, and then especially, try to hold good form and tempo when tired.

2) sets where you swim some fly/some free are really nice to get stronger. One doesn't want to train fly when your stroke is falling apart - it doesn't help.

3) if the end of a 50 is starting to hurt, do 25's in practice and start with getting at least as much rest as you take to swim it. So, if a 25 of fly takes :15, do them on the :30. If you start to lose your ability to maintain good form, then it's time to rest more or you have done enough repeats.

4) slowly build up to doing more and more fly in practice and then add some 50's in - 25 free/25 fly to start and then 12.5 free/37.5 fly, etc.

5) training alone gives you more space and the ability to swim as much fly as you want - take advantage of it!

Have fun!

Thrashing Slug
April 26th, 2010, 11:34 PM
I've been getting into fly lately. I'm really starting to enjoy swimming it, now that I can still feel strong at the end of the 50, and do repeats along with those swimming free in practice.

The other day I did a 1000 continuous warmup, done as 150 free, 50 fly. I enjoy swimming fly as part of a distance set so I can relax and work on technique.

I'm still pretty new at swimming fly. This was a difficult set for me. (all done at a fairly hard effort):
4 X 100 fly on 2:00
4 X 50 fly on 1:10
4 X 25 fly on :30

I also once did a ladder that looked something like this:
25, 50, 75, 100, 125, 150, 125, 100, 75, 50, 25 .. all fly. That 150 was the longest fly I've swum to date. (There was plenty of rest in between some of those, LOL)

That Guy
April 27th, 2010, 12:28 AM
12x200 fly LCM at least once a week in the summer

:afraid: !

:roids:?

Calvin S
April 27th, 2010, 08:35 AM
that was high school...a different type of training (one I am thankful I don't have to endure as much anymore). you won't catch me doing 12x200 LCM fly at all this summer!

Chris Stevenson
April 27th, 2010, 10:49 AM
1) work with your coach to work on your form, and then especially, try to hold good form and tempo when tired.

2) sets where you swim some fly/some free are really nice to get stronger. One doesn't want to train fly when your stroke is falling apart - it doesn't help.

3) if the end of a 50 is starting to hurt, do 25's in practice and start with getting at least as much rest as you take to swim it. So, if a 25 of fly takes :15, do them on the :30. If you start to lose your ability to maintain good form, then it's time to rest more or you have done enough repeats.

4) slowly build up to doing more and more fly in practice and then add some 50's in - 25 free/25 fly to start and then 12.5 free/37.5 fly, etc.

5) training alone gives you more space and the ability to swim as much fly as you want - take advantage of it!

Have fun!

This is an excellent post. People shouldn't be discouraged by descriptions of long fly sets in this thread; they aren't the norm in masters.

Even if you never intend to swim (say) 200 fly in a meet, I think that doing fly in workouts gives you the most "bang for your buck" in terms of conditioning and building fitness in limited time. That's assuming your shoulders can handle it, of course.

And it IS a beautiful stroke; when it comes together, nothing beats it. (The opposite is also true, as most people know: when you die, nothing hurts quite so badly. "Reach for the sky," and all that.)

Doing fly/free is a great way to build endurance fly; I particularly like the set described earlier about the 300s done as 100 fly/100 free (active recovery)/100 fly (try to go faster). This sort of thing can be easily modified based on your abilities:

-- 200s done as 75 fly/50 free/75 fly
-- 100s done as 50 fly/25 free/25 fly sprint
-- etc.

You can also do broken swims.

About the only part where swimmj and I disagree is the last point. It is true that you have more room by yourself...but I often lack the self-discipline to do hard fly sets when training alone. If I announce to my lane-mates or coach that I am doing a set fly, I feel some pressure to complete the task even as the pain comes. When I am by myself, it is too easy to rationalize cutting the set short or decreasing the amount of fly ("my HR sure is pretty high, I think I've already done a lot today, I think this should be more of a recovery workout, etc"). But others may be less wimpy than I.

Calvin S
April 27th, 2010, 10:55 AM
About the only part where swimmj and I disagree is the last point. It is true that you have more room by yourself...but I often lack the self-discipline to do hard fly sets when training alone. If I announce to my lane-mates or coach that I am doing a set fly, I feel some pressure to complete the task even as the pain comes. When I am by myself, it is too easy to rationalize cutting the set short or decreasing the amount of fly ("my HR sure is pretty high, I think I've already done a lot today, etc"). But others may be less wimpy than I.

I agree that having people in your lane helps a lot more on a fly set. It's even better if your lane mates are also having to struggle through the same set. I think all the difficulties in swimming fly sets in a lane full of people (the choppy wake, lapping slower swimmers, banging arms on your outsweep, etc) all make for a "worst case scenario". I just think to myself, at least in the 200 fly I wont have all these damn waves to swim through!

Jimbosback
April 27th, 2010, 12:37 PM
So I just finished my first year of competition after two years of solo lap swimming. I'd like to swim more fly since I got 5th at State with a 33 low 50 fly (age 55-59). I know my form has opportunity for improvement & I think my coach can help me with that. Any thought on cross-training or my solo workout swims? I die in the last 10-15 yards. I'm averaging 12-13k per week in practice.

Great advice above. I am just getting back into swimming (several months) and have been working a lot on Fly (I am working on all strokes to hopefully swim 200 IM, but I swim some fly every day and I'll be racing 50 fly). My point is, I have a beginner's perspective.

I like to swim a 200 drill, resting a little each 50 of: 50 kick, 50 right arm, 50 left arm, 50 L, L, R, R, full, full. Doing this every workout for the last three months, one thing I learned is that fly requires a really strong core. (ie what burns in these sets is my abdomen, from ribs right through to backside) Another thing I learned is that you can improve your fly without doing a ton of full stroke work, at least until you are in 'butterfly shape'.

(This set is combination of things I remember from my youth and SolarEnergy's posts here)

I have gone from almost dying on a 25 to being able to do a clean 75 maintaining my stroke rate (pretty close anyway).

FlyQueen
April 27th, 2010, 01:21 PM
And it IS a beautiful stroke; when it comes together, nothing beats it. (The opposite is also true, as most people know: when you die, nothing hurts quite so badly. "Reach for the sky," and all that.)



UGH! The dying part being why the 100 and I are still on hiatus ... :censor:

That Guy
April 27th, 2010, 01:58 PM
This is an excellent post. People shouldn't be discouraged by descriptions of long fly sets in this thread; they aren't the norm in masters.

About the only part where swimmj and I disagree is the last point. It is true that you have more room by yourself...but I often lack the self-discipline to do hard fly sets when training alone. If I announce to my lane-mates or coach that I am doing a set fly, I feel some pressure to complete the task even as the pain comes. When I am by myself, it is too easy to rationalize cutting the set short or decreasing the amount of fly ("my HR sure is pretty high, I think I've already done a lot today, I think this should be more of a recovery workout, etc"). But others may be less wimpy than I.

I agree, great post swimmj!

I do train alone and I seem to do more fly than most people. Motivation is why I measure how much fly I do. I have weekly, monthly, and yearly targets, and knowing how much I need to do each day to hit those goals keeps me from slacking. Case in point: this morning. I felt tired and sluggish in the pool and I had noodlers wandering around in my lane (they started doing this around 25 minutes before their class time... I've decided that this is called "pre-noodling"), but I knew that I set a goal to do at least 4000 fly this week, and already I took Sunday off. So I grinded out the main set and got in a total of 725 fly for the workout. My times were slow but my form did not break down.

An explanation of scale: 4000 yards of fly per week is heavy but sustainable volume; I'm done with SCY season and I'm loading up for LCM. 3000 is more reasonable mid-season volume when meets are coming up. 2000 is more like an early taper amount (or maybe a mini-taper). 1000 is what I might do in the last week of a full taper. I've found that at least for my shoulders, 5000+ is serious peak fly volume and is not sustainable for more than 1-2 weeks without detrimental effect. I went nuts last September and did something like 23000 fly for the month (a training PR... yes I keep track of stuff like that :blush:) but honestly I think it did more harm than good.

Karen Duggan
April 27th, 2010, 02:04 PM
Hmmm, so this is what a fly lane is like. Nice.

This is the first, and last, time I will visit a fly lane :D :D :D

Back to my happy place, the IM lane
:bliss:

Nichole
April 27th, 2010, 02:05 PM
Thanks to Ande for starting this thread and to all the contributors. There are many good recommendations and sets here. I started swimming again 10 months ago and am working to build my fly speed and endurance. Initially I found that running helped shed the few pounds I needed to lose and build my core strength that is necessary for fly and swimming in general. Now that I am increasing my swimming conditioning, I have found running to help less, but I still do it for fun. The longer fly sets still intimidate me, so I sprint fly whenever I can, 25s/50s. I also do a lot of fly kick sets and kick fly whenever I have the opportunity. When I kick fast fly I swim fast fly.

Question for the fliers – do you ever use fins when doing longer fly sets? Have you found them to help your endurance?

Chris Stevenson
April 27th, 2010, 02:12 PM
[FONT=Arial]Question for the fliers – do you ever use fins when doing longer fly sets? Have you found them to help your endurance?

Fins mess up my timing in fly, and they don't even make me go that much faster. I don't use them; but your mileage may vary.

Another possible way to increase fly endurance is to do what my coach calls the "Nemo" drill. Do a normal fly stroke but dive slightly deeper and kick 3 times underwater, then surface to take another stroke and repeat, breathing every stroke. It is easier than regular fly -- though not easy -- and I think it also helps with timing.

Ahelee Sue Osborn
April 27th, 2010, 02:19 PM
Not long ago I posted a call out to my Facebook friends to post their best "simple butterfly tip" for a Butterfly 101 Clinic I was coaching on the upcoming weekend.

Here is a collage of them - tips for all levels I would say from retired flyers to World Record Holders, Olympians, coaches and swimmers. This was fun!

CVMM 101 Butterfly


Some simple tips from Butterflying Friends of Ahelee’s


(no particular order)

Allison Wagner (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1061638314&ref=mf): Get your head down quickly after breathing!

Cheryl Kupan:
I'm a big fan of one arm fly… well, these days that's all I can do (literally) is just 1 arm. ;)

"a friend sent it to me this AM as he knows my love of FLY... not! RL ain't so bad to watch either”
Ryan Lochte butterfly
YouTube- Ryan Lochte butterfly technique "
Mo Begley Chambers: "Hi Ahelee - simple, but basic, for butterfly. Keeping your head/neck/spine in alignment, press and then release your chest so it slips just under and then over the water. Work from your core! OK, short enough?

John Robert Morales:
"Butterfly tip: try to swim perfect butterfly in practice. It may be just a 25 or 50, but practicing a bad butterfly stroke only results in a bad butterfly stroke.

Jim McCleery: "Ahelee, I like two drills for butterfly. 1) 1 arm with dolphin kick, 2) dolphin kick with a snorkel and arms at your sides. Both enhance the rhythmic nature of the stroke. "

Jeri Marshburn (Tom Shields’ development coach):
Unless I am fine tuning a stroke there are 2 things I always say 1) “the fastest way to swim butterfly is underwater” ......and 2)"your legs are not useless appendages - your arms appreciate it when you use them!"

Ethan Yotter: "timing. timing. timing. If your arms are recovering, your head should be down. Also, the "wave" motion of butterfly- it starts at your head and goes
all the way to your toes."

Michael Heather: "Dive into each stroke. Lots of core strength=speed and endurance in butterfly."

Keith Dennison: "Butterfly is all about getting on top of and "flying" across the water. This is all technique, core strength and endurance. I would watch the YouTube videos from Phelps in 2008 at the Olympics and 2009 at World in Rome. For a clinic, I'd focus on sculling out in front and directly underneath the shoulders. One arm drills, breathing every other (focusing on keeping as high in the water as possible. Lastly, I'd do fly kick on your back in a perfect streamline.

For advanced swimmers, vertical kicking, also in a streamline position. It can't be mastered in a weekend, but you can improve significantly in a matter of a few months.

In the weight room; back, shoulders, triceps and core are the most critical. Bottom line, if you can do 3 sets of 10 pull ups unassisted, you have the tools to be an amazing flyer!!!

Tyler Clary (http://www.facebook.com/tyler.clary): Work on shoulder and wrist flexibility. the better that is, the more efficient you will be which is especially helpful in long course events.

Lucy Johnson (http://www.facebook.com/lucy.johnson47) Face in the water before the hands, follow your hands with your eyes (and therefore your head) until eyes are looking at the bottom of the pool right under your face (not looking forward at this point); and lift your hips.

Jessica Hardy (http://www.facebook.com/jessicahardy) all I think about doing is trying to make it as much like breaststroke as possible...high catch underwater, low breath, and fast turnover!

(below is 1 conversation of tips)

Lisa Ward (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1269998129) Do drills instead of broken down fly. That's all I do :) Leslie Livingston (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=797920051): Metoo Ahelee Sue Osborn (http://www.facebook.com/ahelee): Me too... And Finz. Always! Leslie Livingston (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=797920051): I haven't swum a single length of fly without fins in years. Keeps the shoulders healthy and legs strong. Lisa Ward (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1269998129): I only use my zoomers for fast kick sets doing fly on my back. Since I'm starting to do 200 fly I will drill to keep up my endurance. When I only did 50 fly I rarely swam fly in practice. Leslie Livingston (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=797920051): I never use zoomers, only the regular speedo fins. I drill a ton of fly as well. I never swim more than a 50 fly in practice, usually AFAP. I use fins for all fly swimming. But I kick regularly without fins and practice my shooters without fins. I like using my monofin for an endurance dolphin kick set, or a super zippy speed set. In short, I kick a lot of fly and don't swim much. Fly is a very kick driven stroke. Now, if you're doing a 200, I have no advice, as I am strictly a sprint flyer.

~~~~~~~
(http://www.facebook.com/anderasmussen)
Ande Rasmussen (http://www.facebook.com/anderasmussen): Anything you do & measure, Improves,

SDK faster,

Keep your head down, when not breathing

Move your arms fast

Fly is a flat stroke with a slight undulation
Andrea Block (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=668038756) stay flat, press the chest and keep the hips high!

Bill Brenner (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1087149931) For beginners, drop your chin towards your chest after each breath. Others, put one foot on top of the other when bringing the feet to the wall on the turns.

Michael Mann (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1537510593) Hands under hips when pushing the stroke to finish

Rob Dumouchel (http://www.facebook.com/rob.dumouchel): Remember that the more you can bear to kick underwater the less you have to actually swim on top of it :)

Nichole Talbot (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1136164295): One of the things I focus on is to keep my head low when taking a breath. If the head is too high, the body becomes more vertical which reduces momentum.

Mj Caswell (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1050395058): Press your chest down every time your arms come to the front and remember to enter the water with soft hands.

Ouida Liu (http://www.facebook.com/ouida.liu): I always tell people to learn swim fly correctly and they'll be able to swim without getting tired.

Laura Val (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000629913535): For me I need to breathe every other to keep my rhythm. Otherwise I go up and down. Also I think about keeping my hips up and head down.

Gary Hall, Sr.: "Wow! tough one. Get your legs strong. When your legs go in fly, so do you. Good legs will keep you horizontal in fly...the only way to be. If you front breathe, lift the neck only; not the shoulders. Otherwise try breathing to the side like I now do.


Bridgitt Welge (http://www.facebook.com/bridgitt.welge): It's always been a rule with me that there's NO breathing "off the wall" with fly. Beginners (and some non-beginners) lose their rhythm with that first breath and just can't get it back. You have to take a couple of strokes before your first breath...even if those couple strokes have to start out as 1-arm fly.(training)
Oh, psychology. I thought it was a LOT easier to do fly AFTER I was told that it should feel like I was going "downhill" than to simply learn that it feels "uphill" a lot of the time until you do it right.

Jessica Cole-Crawford (http://www.facebook.com/jessicacolecrawford): kick "UP" as well as down...
Another one: take your time at the top of the stroke when placing your hands in the water... allow yourself to catch and grab rather than slip through (no rushing the top of the stroke)...
Another: be sure to power through all the way to the bottom of the pull and "push" the water all the way through to your fingertips past your hips/thighs. this will help ease the recovery and allow your arms to naturally recover over the water will less effort on your part... it will help save the shoulders and preserve your upper body strength and endurance... I always found doing chin dips to be very helpful for this as well as working with the overhead pull-down in the weight room... get those triceps strong! lats and shoulders too... (and, of course the core- but I am focusing on upper body in this particular comment). core strengthening will help immensely with the kick, making sure it is equally strong on the up as well as on the down motion. kicking on your back is GREAT for this, as is vertical kicking... u should be able to work your way to being strong enough with your kick to be able to lift your body up out of the water at least to your ribcage...

Hermine Terhorst (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1291420993): 4 count fly drill.....under body to front for 1 out to sides for two breaths for 3 and push back for 4.....under body to front for 1...to begin again..... keeps them flat, teaches rhythm and makes them learn to wait to breathe (must do 2 before breath)

Michelle Chow (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=545404663): "Hide the cookie" or thumb drag drill. If you "hide a cookie" from me, then your palm with face more backwards than frontwards, the latter causing you to sink and go vertical. For breastroke, you "take a cookie, put it in your mouth!” More geared for little kiddies. Obviously, to break the habit of "putting the cookie in your pocket"!

Therese O'Rourke (http://www.facebook.com/therese.orourke): I think the best way to swim fly is with a smile!
After Clovis I decided to STOP doing one arm fly drills being that I almost lapsed into it on the last 50 of the 200 due to fatigue.
Doing fly at the END of 200 frees and at the end of practice has really helped me with strength and endurance... which seems to help my whole stroke....When I teach kids fly, I usually have them do extra "up and outs" to build their upper body strength.

The Fortress
April 27th, 2010, 05:03 PM
Question for the fliers – do you ever use fins when doing longer fly sets? Have you found them to help your endurance?

I don't do long fly sets for the 50/100 fly. I never swim fly without fins, and then it's usually fast or easy speed. And I do a ton of fly drills. I prefer to kick for endurance on fly (fly is a leg driven stroke). My fav device for this is my monofin, but I kick without it as well.

Whew, good to be out of the breaststroke lane ...

Chris Stevenson
April 27th, 2010, 06:29 PM
I prefer to kick for endurance on fly (fly is a leg driven stroke).

It is true that, once your legs are gone, you are toast in fly. But lately I've been thinking that---more than in the other strokes---in (distance) fly you really are only as good as your weakest link. For example:

If you can't lift your arms above the water at the end of the race, you're done.

If you can't finish your stroke at the end of the race, you'll be going up/down instead of forward and you're done.

That Guy
April 27th, 2010, 06:49 PM
I don't use fins for a few reasons:

I bike to the gym. I don't have a permanent locker there so the fins would be an extra thing to lug with me. No thanks.
Fins take the skin off the top side of my 2nd and 3rd toes. (I don't know why... so I'll go with "it's because I kick incredibly hard!!!") To prevent that I'd have to wear socks or something. Another no thanks.
It's fun to pass people who ARE wearing fins. :banana:
I do swim faster with fins... maybe if my pool were LCM it would be worth it, but it's SCY. I've never tried a monofin.

LindsayNB
April 27th, 2010, 08:05 PM
Ahalee: thanks for the tip compilation!

At the start of this year I got a pair of the aquasphere fins and they weigh almost nothing compared to most fins, so are more convenient to lug around, and they are made of a very soft almost foam like material and are the first fins I've had that I haven't had any problems with abrasion with. For anyone with fin abrasion problems these are worth a try.

Last week I was in Montreal and met "SolarEnergy" from this forum and learned quite a bit. One thing I was amazed by was how flexible ankles can be, and how inflexible mine were! It made me wonder whether differences in kicking technique might be caused by differences in ankle flexibility, and whether fins might be a different experience for those with and without flexible ankles. It seems logical that good ankle flexibility provides forward propulsion with a much smaller kick amplitude. Basic physics would say that the downbeat of the kick stops being propulsive once there are no surfaces with a backward facing component, so unless you can point your feet past 180 degrees your downbeat stops giving forward propulsion when it reaches horizontal, and in reality the forward component becomes very small well before that. Perhaps this is why swimmers with inflexible ankles, when given a kickboard naturally gravitate toward a large from-the-knee dolphin kick?

Nichole
April 28th, 2010, 03:10 PM
Ahelee, as always, you rock. Thanks for sharing the tips with us!

Thanks to those who shared if/how/when you use fins. I've always been of the mind to modify workouts until I can swim or kick them without equipment, but maybe I will give fins a try and test the results.

swimmj
April 28th, 2010, 04:44 PM
Ahelee, as always, you rock. Thanks for sharing the tips with us!

Thanks to those who shared if/how/when you use fins. I've always been of the mind to modify workouts until I can swim or kick them without equipment, but maybe I will give fins a try and test the results.

When you use fins with fly, make sure you work on driving forward and don't use them to get out of the water much further than you need to. You don't need to have your belly button out of the water to breath - and for many, that is a temptation.

I use fins with fly some, but find they will support some lazy habits that swimming fly without will not. So I recommend some of each.

FlyQueen
April 28th, 2010, 05:19 PM
Question for the fliers – do you ever use fins when doing longer fly sets? Have you found them to help your endurance?

I'm with Chris & Fort on this one ... Like Chris I NEVER use fins with fly. I do not like that it changes my timing. I do kick fly with fins on occassion. Like Fort I do not do long fly sets. Usually not more than a 75 straight and rarely more than 200 at a time (as in 4 x 50 fly). I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE the 50 fly. I am on hiatus from the 100. I pretend the 200 does not exist.

My favorite tool for fly is the snorkel. I use it for drills all the time. That way I can focus on the drill and not worry about the breath. I do a ton of kicking with the snorkel LCM in the summer ... good stuff.

ElaineK
April 28th, 2010, 07:04 PM
Ahelee, I'll be living in the Breaststroke Lane :bliss:, but dropping in on the Butterfly Lane for future reference. I'm focusing just on breaststroke for now, but plan on adding butterfly in competition, next year. So, thanks for taking the time to post all those great tips! :applaud: I pasted them into a Word Doc to refer back to on a regular basis. :D

THANKS!
Elaine

no200fly
April 28th, 2010, 10:40 PM
If you have not read it, a short story about Greg Shaw's training for his 200 fly world record, can be read here:

http://www.masters-athlete.com/public/487.cfm?sd=33

I have started doing more sets with different amounts of drill/fly and I think it has helped. I will know more after Atlanta.

born2fly
April 30th, 2010, 11:51 AM
Here is practice I had this morning. Did the faster interval. Obviously I am not on taper just yet!

#1 Friday, April 30, 2010 AM



WARMUP
400 FREE SMOOTH SWIM
4 X 100 IM DRILL OR SWIM @ :10 REST
4 X 50 KICK WITH A BOARD DESCEND 1-4

600 PULL BREATHING 3/5 BY 100, DESCEND YOUR 200s



Flyers



100 LAST 25 IS FLY @ 1:10/ 1:20
300 LAST 50 IS FLY @ 3:30/ 4:00
500 LAST 100 IS FLY @ 5:50/ 6:40
700 LAST 200 IS FLY @ 8:10/9:20
800 FIRST AND LAST 100 ARE FLY, MAKE LAST ONE FASTER @ 9:40 / 10:20
600 FIRST AND LAST 100 ARE FLY, MAKE LAST ONE FASTER @ 7:20 / 8:00
400 FIRST AND LAST 100 ARE FLY, MAKE LAST ONE FASTER @ 5:00 / 5:20
200 BUTTERFLY SWIM FAST TRY TO GO 2:08 OR FASTER

ande
April 30th, 2010, 12:02 PM
YES

this is what we're hoping to avoid.


Greg Shaw will never forget the first time he tried to set a world-record pace in the 200-meter butterfly during a national Masters meet in Cleveland. The 56-year-old was far ahead of the other swimmers in the Olympic-sized pool and had just flip-turned to complete his last 50-meter lap.

"Suddenly, my whole body turned into a lead weight," he says. "I couldn't even lift my arms out of the water. After that I looked like the most pitiful swimmer trying to perform the butterfly. It was so bad everyone clapped when I got out of the pool."




If you have not read it, a short story about Greg Shaw's training for his 200 fly world record, can be read here:

http://www.masters-athlete.com/public/487.cfm?sd=33

I have started doing more sets with different amounts of drill/fly and I think it has helped. I will know more after Atlanta.

no200fly
April 30th, 2010, 07:26 PM
YES

this is what we're hoping to avoid.

Been there - done that.

That Guy
April 30th, 2010, 07:44 PM
200 BUTTERFLY SWIM FAST TRY TO GO 2:08 OR FASTER

That's a very impressive set. I would be on the slower interval, no doubt. What did you go for that last 2fly?

ande
May 5th, 2010, 08:42 PM
here's a decent 50 fly

YouTube- Milorad Cavic, 50 m Zlatna Medalja ,Rim 2009.

That Guy
May 5th, 2010, 09:54 PM
here's a decent 50 fly

YouTube- Milorad Cavic, 50 m Zlatna Medalja ,Rim 2009. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j240iwobE0E)

Michael Phelps: height: 6'4", wingspan: 6'7"
Milorad Cavic: height: 6'6", wingspan: not listed on Wikipedia, clearly large
That Guy: height: 5'8", wingspan: no

so one of my training goals this year is to get 8 inches taller

swimmj
May 5th, 2010, 09:58 PM
Michael Phelps: height: 6'4", wingspan: 6'7"
Milorad Cavic: height: 6'6", wingspan: not listed on Wikipedia, clearly large
That Guy: height: 5'8", wingspan: no

so one of my training goals this year is to get 8 inches taller

Too darn funny! Let me know how well you do at this goal. There are many, many fast flyers who are not tall. You among them.

tjrpatt
May 5th, 2010, 10:08 PM
Michael Phelps: height: 6'4", wingspan: 6'7"
Milorad Cavic: height: 6'6", wingspan: not listed on Wikipedia, clearly large
That Guy: height: 5'8", wingspan: no

so one of my training goals this year is to get 8 inches taller

The guy that got 2nd at the 2008 Olympic Trials in the 200 fly might have been your height.

Heck, I have a T-Rex wingspan and I was able to do a 2:13 200 LCM fly(1995) in my age group days.

That Guy
May 5th, 2010, 10:27 PM
Another Masters swimmer who trains at the same gym I do told me that he doesn't like swimming fly there because the lanes are narrow and he can hit both of his hands on lanelines at the same time. Although the lanes are indeed narrow, hitting both hands on lanelines is not a problem that ever even would have occurred to me.

MJ: It's going great, I've already gotten 20 inches taller! Wait... scratch that, I was standing on a table... subtract the difference... I'm 10 inches shorter??? There's gotta be a silver lining here. If I shave down for every meet, I can enter as 12&U! :banana:

sjstuart
May 6th, 2010, 09:16 AM
That's a great idea: instead of using age groups, we should compete in height categories.

It wouldn't work well for me, though: I'm over 6 feet tall, and have monkey arms, but am definitely not a fast butterflyer.

no200fly
May 7th, 2010, 08:54 AM
Here is an interesting video about the Spitz/Russell 100 fly duel at the 68 Olympics:

http://www.tsdhof.org/video-doug%20russell.html

born2fly
May 7th, 2010, 12:39 PM
I cant believe the butterfly lane is getting their a$$ kicked by the breaststroke lane. They have 2,000 more views and here I thought that was the evil stroke.

Time for the fliers to catch up, we cant let breaststrokers beat us!

That Guy
May 7th, 2010, 01:20 PM
I cant believe the butterfly lane is getting their a$$ kicked by the breaststroke lane. They have 2,000 more views and here I thought that was the evil stroke.

Time for the fliers to catch up, we cant let breaststrokers beat us!

Meaningless thread stats do not concern me! As noted in the SDK thread, I've entered breaststroke events and beaten some of them at their own game, even though anyone can plainly see that I do not have a feel for the water with that stroke. (Someday I'll figure it out... maybe... :badday:) Other than Allen Stark, I don't see breaststrokers regularly throwing down in the fly events. I'm planning to swim the 200 LCM breast this summer to see if I can steal a top 10. No one from the mainland will be able to drive to LCM Nationals so I'm guessing attendance will be lower than usual and LCM top tens will be easier to get than they were last year. Also, it's been 4 years since I last swam the 200 SCM breast... might have to swim that in the fall in case enough of the fast breaststrokers are afraid to swim it... seriously, how funny would it be if I manage to get a breaststroke top ten?

no200fly
May 7th, 2010, 02:09 PM
I'm planning to swim the 200 LCM breast this summer to see if I can steal a top 10. No one from the mainland will be able to drive to LCM Nationals so I'm guessing attendance will be lower than usual and LCM top tens will be easier to get than they were last year. Also, it's been 4 years since I last swam the 200 SCM breast... might have to swim that in the fall in case enough of the fast breaststrokers are afraid to swim it... seriously, how funny would it be if I manage to get a breaststroke top ten?

I started swimming some breaststroke a year ago when I thought my shoulder problems were going to keep me from swimming fly. While I didn't get top 10, I was in the top 15 and in the top 10 at nationals. I think it has a lot in common with fly since I really don't train much breaststroke.

Chris Stevenson
May 7th, 2010, 03:28 PM
I cant believe the butterfly lane is getting their a$$ kicked by the breaststroke lane. They have 2,000 more views and here I thought that was the evil stroke.

Time for the fliers to catch up, we cant let breaststrokers beat us!

Butterfly does not require endless commentary and analysis and sob stories, it stands on its own merits. Butterfliers are the toughest swimmers around and everyone knows it. End of story.

tjrpatt
May 7th, 2010, 03:39 PM
I started swimming some breaststroke a year ago when I thought my shoulder problems were going to keep me from swimming fly. While I didn't get top 10, I was in the top 15 and in the top 10 at nationals. I think it has a lot in common with fly since I really don't train much breaststroke.

The sad thing is that I could have place higher in the 200 LCM breast at Indy Nationals than the 9th place I got in the 100 fly. Yeah, next Nationals I do, I might do the 200 breast instead and just use the 100 fly split from my 200 fly or 400 IM. They are all about the same times anyway.

tjrpatt
May 7th, 2010, 03:41 PM
Butterfly does not require endless commentary and analysis and sob stories, it stands on its own merits. Butterfliers are the toughest swimmers around and everyone knows it. End of story.

You mean butterfliers who do the 200 fly. I don't think that you can really call yourself a butterflier unless you do the 200 fly. Otherwise, you are just a sprinter. :2cents:

swimmj
May 7th, 2010, 04:06 PM
You mean butterfliers who do the 200 fly. I don't think that you can really call yourself a butterflier unless you do the 200 fly. Otherwise, you are just a sprinter. :2cents:

I actually think the 100 fly is a very good test for folks. I had to swim the 200 fly at every meet in college and I never, ever enjoyed it. The piano always fell on the 3rd 50. I'm planning to tackle it soon as a masters swimmer, on my own terms, and plan to make peace with it.

As an aside, I started swimming more breast after realizing that in a 200 IM, a fellow competitor that got 5th at nats that year and I stayed even on the breast leg. So I dabble in breast, in IM's and in mid distance free. It's more interesting to swim more things - why limit yourself? Breast and fly do have much in common - they are both short axis strokes and take more energy to swim than back and free.

tjrpatt
May 7th, 2010, 04:38 PM
I actually think the 100 fly is a very good test for folks. I had to swim the 200 fly at every meet in college and I never, ever enjoyed it. The piano always fell on the 3rd 50. I'm planning to tackle it soon as a masters swimmer, on my own terms, and plan to make peace with it.

As an aside, I started swimming more breast after realizing that in a 200 IM, a fellow competitor that got 5th at nats that year and I stayed even on the breast leg. So I dabble in breast, in IM's and in mid distance free. It's more interesting to swim more things - why limit yourself? Breast and fly do have much in common - they are both short axis strokes and take more energy to swim than back and free.

breast and fly have alot in common but it is weird how people are fly/backstrokers or back/breaststrokers. I finally met some fly/breaststrokers and felt like I saw the ocean part or something. I swim the 200 back and breastroke to help out my IMs. I haven't had the desire to do a 100 back lately. The breaststroke is just a fun/no pressure event for me.

The Fortress
May 7th, 2010, 05:15 PM
I don't think that you can really call yourself a butterflier unless you do the 200 fly. Otherwise, you are just a sprinter. :2cents:

Seriously?!

And the 100 fly is a "sprint"? That's an endurance event, dude. :D If you can do a good 100 fly, you are not just a sprinter. :2cents:

50 fly question: Does anyone do this as a no breather? Pros and cons?

no200fly
May 7th, 2010, 06:44 PM
The breaststroke is just a fun/no pressure event for me.

Same here.

no200fly
May 7th, 2010, 06:50 PM
I actually think the 100 fly is a very good test for folks. I had to swim the 200 fly at every meet in college and I never, ever enjoyed it. The piano always fell on the 3rd 50. I'm planning to tackle it soon as a masters swimmer, on my own terms, and plan to make peace with it.


I made a solemn promise to myself, as I turned on the last 50 of my last 200 fly in college, that if I would finish with all I could manage - I would never swim another 200 fly. I feel like I owe it to myself to keep that promise. The 100 is plenty far for me.

swimmj
May 7th, 2010, 07:34 PM
I made a solemn promise to myself, as I turned on the last 50 of my last 200 fly in college, that if I would finish with all I could manage - I would never swim another 200 fly. I feel like I owe it to myself to keep that promise. The 100 is plenty far for me.

I can understand that completely. I have taken a :05 - :10 break at the 3rd turn on my first 100 fly as a master - and finished 2nd and got the team points I was going for. I'm in far better shape now, but my first 200 fly might vary well resemble 8 x 25 with :05 - :10 - and I think that's fine. I really enjoy being able to pick what races I want to swim and approach them in the way that I want to. I also saw someone set a state record in the 200 fly after taking a :15 pause at the 150. He finished. Legally.

In college I swam the 100 & 200 fly and 500 free pretty much every duel meet, with the 200 free, 1650 free or 400 IM mixed in at other times. I still haven't done a 1650 in a race. I plan to though, as I'm doing the checkoff challenge this year.

SolarEnergy
May 7th, 2010, 09:20 PM
Seriously?!

And the 100 fly is a "sprint"? That's an endurance event, dude. :D If you can do a good 100 fly, you are not just a sprinter. :2cents:

50 fly question: Does anyone do this as a no breather? Pros and cons?
With a mere 0.1 delta between my 50 breathing a few times and 50 breathing every stroke, for me, it's kind of a no brainer. I prefer to breathe a few times, probably allows me to finish harder.

no200fly
May 8th, 2010, 10:00 AM
In college I swam the 100 & 200 fly and 500 free pretty much every duel meet, with the 200 free, 1650 free or 400 IM mixed in at other times. I still haven't done a 1650 in a race. I plan to though, as I'm doing the checkoff challenge this year.

I apparently made my coach mad before one college dual meet. He came into the team meeting before the meet and said the he was thinking of a number between 1 and 10,000 and began asking people to guess his number. I as the third person he asked and as soon as I gave my answer, he announced that I had guessed correctly. My "prize" was swimming the 1,000 the 500 and the 200 fly in the meet. I still don't know what I did to make him mad.

swimmj
May 8th, 2010, 11:29 AM
I apparently made my coach mad before one college dual meet. He came into the team meeting before the meet and said the he was thinking of a number between 1 and 10,000 and began asking people to guess his number. I as the third person he asked and as soon as I gave my answer, he announced that I had guessed correctly. My "prize" was swimming the 1,000 the 500 and the 200 fly in the meet. I still don't know what I did to make him mad.

If punishment is supposed to prevent you from doing the wrong thing again, that one wasn't very effective. I mean, if you didn't even know what you did.... I swam all the long stuff as no one else on the team was as good at it as I was. I'm actually best in the 100/200 distances but can grind out more if I need to. I had many, many meets like the one you describe as punishment. I *love* being able to pick my own events. And respect the effort that is takes to swim longer distances.

That Guy
May 8th, 2010, 12:15 PM
I apparently made my coach mad before one college dual meet. He came into the team meeting before the meet and said the he was thinking of a number between 1 and 10,000 and began asking people to guess his number. I as the third person he asked and as soon as I gave my answer, he announced that I had guessed correctly. My "prize" was swimming the 1,000 the 500 and the 200 fly in the meet. I still don't know what I did to make him mad.

I swam that combo many times. It wasn't until late in my junior year that I figured out the correct mental approach for it. You have to actually want to do it. Otherwise that short-rest 500 just becomes a survival race. Although I conquered that mental hurdle, I'm glad I don't have to swim that combo anymore :)

no200fly
May 9th, 2010, 08:59 AM
If punishment is supposed to prevent you from doing the wrong thing again, that one wasn't very effective. I mean, if you didn't even know what you did.... I swam all the long stuff as no one else on the team was as good at it as I was.

There were probably a lot of things it could have been for - it was the early 70s and a different time.

I have added the 500 or 1,000 to a few recent meets and I think it is kind of fun to plan a longer race.

no200fly
May 9th, 2010, 09:15 AM
I swam that combo many times. It wasn't until late in my junior year that I figured out the correct mental approach for it. You have to actually want to do it. Otherwise that short-rest 500 just becomes a survival race. Although I conquered that mental hurdle, I'm glad I don't have to swim that combo anymore :)
Luckily, that was my only time. At that time, people swam fewer events (at least I did).

There is a longer FlowSwimming interview with Doug Russell about the 1968 100 fly race with Mark Spitz. Doug was also a world class backstroker, but he says in the video that the 100 fly and back were considered to be an "impossible double" in 1968. Imagine that.

rdeclercq
May 11th, 2010, 09:12 AM
Too darn funny! Let me know how well you do at this goal. There are many, many fast flyers who are not tall. You among them.

A friend from high school a few years younger than I was the state's #8 finalist in Fly. She was 5' tall and looked like Smurfette next to the other girls when getting their medals. You do not have to be super tall or built to swim fly well.

debaru
May 13th, 2010, 12:06 PM
Vladimir Putin swimming fly in a lake:

http://punditkitchen.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/political-pictures-vladimir-putin-loch-ness.jpg?w=500&h=383

slowfish
May 13th, 2010, 04:51 PM
i'm far behind all of you in that my goal is to be able to race a 50 fly versus just survive it. i also agree with the poster who said that it's a great bang for the buck when it comes to workout intensity.

on using fins - i have the aquasphere fins and think that using them helps to gain endurance. i started doing 100 with fins and then the 50 without started getting easier but i still flail a bit towards the end and i'm definitely tired.

someone mentioned that if you do fly correctly, you won't tire out. true?

also, will the fins be a bad thing in the long run (uh, swim) where i'm messing up the timing?

one of my long term goals would be to swim the 400 IM. i just need to be able to master the fly.

no200fly
May 13th, 2010, 05:00 PM
I will answer one of them:



someone mentioned that if you do fly correctly, you won't tire out. true?


No.

hedgehog
May 16th, 2010, 04:56 PM
I think fins take away so much from swimming butterfly. I just zoom over the water with hardly any effort- but i love butterfly.
I have heard fins will help beginners with the rythm and keeping the hips up, but how long do you want to be dependant on them?
If your stroke is flawed using fins to make the practice easier isn't going to correct your stroke. Because the fins make the sets easier how can you really build up endurance?

No matter how good your stroke is you will eventually get tired swimming fly. I train for the 200 by swimming fly when I am tired. In a lot of ways it is easier because I can only focus on my technique in order to survive. I can just keep going. It doesn't mean I am not tired, but I work on training myself to perform good technique when I am tired. I guess now I just know what it feels like so it isn't so overwhelming.

rdeclercq
May 17th, 2010, 08:32 AM
At first I wasn't sure if I agreed with hedgehog, but the latter part of the post swayed me. I think fins (as well as paddles) are good tools to help with stroke, technique but should not be used as aids to get through practice.

On a personal example, I like fly, but my technique isn't cohesive (or smooth). It needs a lot of work but I think over the next year, it could be great (with the assistance of my great coaches). We had the "opportunity" at practice last week to do a 1000 m set of IM.
250 IM (25 Fly, 50 Back, 75 Breast, 100 Free)
5 x 100 IM
250 IM (25 Fly, 50 Back, 75 Breast, 100 Free)

Going into it, my confidence was very low (how the he|| am I going to get through the Fly by the time I get to that last 250 IM?). "Take it slow and easy," I told myself and that I did. By the end of the set, I was a little tired but by no means did I allow my fly technique to suffer. I was pleasantly surprised with how I got through the set with much success.

So, to echo hedgehog, you will only get better by practice and the fins should not be used to get through a workout (your technique will not improve).

The Fortress
May 17th, 2010, 11:59 AM
I think fins are good tools to help with stroke, technique but should not be used as aids to get through practice.


This is conventional wisdom. Everyone in the world repeats this like a mantra. How are you so sure it's true?

Ahelee Sue Osborn
May 17th, 2010, 02:00 PM
Originally Posted by rdeclercq:
"I think fins are good tools to help with stroke, technique but should not be used as aids to get through practice."


This is conventional wisdom. Everyone in the world repeats this like a mantra. How are you so sure it's true?

I DEFINITELY DO NOT believe its true!
Despise this old school thinking...

SolarEnergy
May 17th, 2010, 02:15 PM
I will answer one of them:

someone mentioned that if you do fly correctly, you won't tire out. true?
No. My opinion, Yes.
But it will be some very slow butterfly, certainly slower than breaststroke for same energy expanded.

LindsayNB
May 17th, 2010, 05:09 PM
There's an annual meet someplace that involves a 1500 or 1650 fly, and there's the guy that swims the 5k Big Shoulders race butterfly, so it is possible to swim butterfly in a way that allows you to go a lot further than typical, but whether that is "correct" butterfly style in the sense that you would want to swim a 50 or a 100 or a 200 in that style is open to debate.

Taking a step back, even "correct" freestyle will tire you out as you pick up the speed.

So, I would suggest the first question is whether there is a style of butterfly that can be swum slow enough that you can swim it long distance, and the answer is clearly yes based on the Big Shoulders guy and the 1500m fliers.

The second question is whether the same style can also be suitable for shorter distances. Solar says yes. I'm still working on it.

hedgehog
May 17th, 2010, 07:03 PM
I believe I misunderstood the word "correct"
i see how you could swim fly and keep going and going if you had the right pace and focus.

SolarEnergy
May 17th, 2010, 08:41 PM
The second question is whether the same style can also be suitable for shorter distances. Solar says yes. I'm still working on it. Hi Lindsay!!

For the record, I would say that there's a significant difference in stroke mechanics between slow and fast fly. But like you said, there's also a huge difference between recovery or warm up paced free style and full blown 6beat kick 50m sprint.

Just my :2cents:

Mark Savage
May 18th, 2010, 06:18 PM
Here is an interesting video about the Spitz/Russell 100 fly duel at the 68 Olympics:

http://www.tsdhof.org/video-doug%20russell.html

Thanks for posting- very interesting

rdeclercq
May 20th, 2010, 10:25 AM
I will go on a tangent here with a similar scenario...medication/drugs. At the first onset of a headache (and I'm talking of a simple head ache, not a deper migrain progblem), do you immediatelyl pop a couple extra-strength pain relievers or do you wait it out to see if the head ache goes away and then maybe take one?

When you say, "I need fins in order to swim fly," you are no longer using fins as a tool but an aid.

Now, I'm not saying if you disagree with my "conventional wisdom" then you have a drug problem! :)

Good luck to everyone swimming this weekend. I'm flying up tonight and will (only) be swimming the 50 Fly on Saturday morning.

-Rob

That Guy
May 20th, 2010, 01:10 PM
I will go on a tangent here with a similar scenario...medication/drugs. At the first onset of a headache (and I'm talking of a simple head ache, not a deper migrain progblem), do you immediatelyl pop a couple extra-strength pain relievers or do you wait it out to see if the head ache goes away and then maybe take one?


If you want to swim in the butterfly lane, you need to be able to ignore stuff like this. The other day I tweaked my neck somehow, but swam right through it, and then lifted, and then biked to work. The tweak figured out that it wasn't welcome, and went away on its own.

tjrpatt
May 21st, 2010, 12:29 PM
here is a good/short fly set that I do solo and I have the room to do it.

Yards
4 x 50s fly on :40

That Guy
May 23rd, 2010, 01:45 AM
Tough set today. It wasn't super-tough physically since it's not very dissimilar from what I do regularly, but tough mentally.

150 fly on 4:00 (went 1:44)
125 fly on 3:30 (went 1:26)
100 fly on 3:00 (went 1:07)
75 fly on 2:30 (went 48)
50 fly on 2:00 (went 30-high or 31-low)
25 fly AFAP (went 13-high or 14-low from a push. 12 SDK's, 7 strokes, no breaths)

Mentally, it was tough to sprint at the end of the 100 and the 75, with the 150 and 125 already weighing on my shoulders. Internal dialogue, minus expletives: "The intervals are long so you can go fast, NOW GO FAST!" I should have been quicker on that 50 too. I see lots of room for improvement the next time I do this set. I think I can and should finish 46-29-13. Then again, the next time I try something like this, I might start at 175 or 200...

bud
May 23rd, 2010, 12:59 PM
...I have taken a :05 - :10 break at the 3rd turn on my first 100 fly as a master - and finished 2nd and got the team points I was going for....
My first real "Ah-Ha!" moment for fly came before I was bold (or healthy) enough to really even try it (in my 40's). It certainly was one of the sparks. It came during a local USMS LMSC LCM championship (my first LCM meet ever).

There was this guy who looked to be in his 70's, possibly older, rather frail, and did not move too fast anywhere, even on deck. I was stunned to see him start the 100 fly. It was nothing spectacular at all to look at, but it was legal. When he reached the turn he clung to the wall a bit, and pushed off for the finish. I turned to my coach at the time and asked quite surprised, "Can you do that?" she calmly looked me square in the eye and said, "Yes. And that was probably the difference between him finishing that event, or not." I bet he scored a 1st, and a bunch of points for his team. Definitely got me to thinking.

That Guy
June 8th, 2010, 03:17 PM
I'm at peak training until it's time to taper for NW LCM Zones July 10-11. Here's the set I did this morning:

3x100 fly on 2:30 @ 200 pace (went 1:09, 1:08, 1:08)
4x75 fly on 2:00 @ 200 pace (went 51, 50, 50, 50)
5x50 fly on 1:30 sprint 2nd 25 (went 33, 32, 32, 31, 31, 31) OOPS I did an extra 50 :blush:
6x25 fly on 1:00 sprint (went 14's and 15's)

The first three 50's, I wasn't really sprinting the 2nd 25 like I was supposed to. But I eventually got there. I was happy to be able to sprint at all at the end of such a long fly set, especially after doing similar-length sets on Sunday and Monday.

So the set was supposed to be 1000 fly total but I did 1050. Didn't realize it until I was walking out of the building.

swimmj
June 8th, 2010, 04:53 PM
I'm at peak training until it's time to taper for NW LCM Zones July 10-11. Here's the set I did this morning:

3x100 fly on 2:30 @ 200 pace (went 1:09, 1:08, 1:08)
4x75 fly on 2:00 @ 200 pace (went 51, 50, 50, 50)
5x50 fly on 1:30 sprint 2nd 25 (went 33, 32, 32, 31, 31, 31) OOPS I did an extra 50 :blush:
6x25 fly on 1:00 sprint (went 14's and 15's)

The first three 50's, I wasn't really sprinting the 2nd 25 like I was supposed to. But I eventually got there. I was happy to be able to sprint at all at the end of such a long fly set, especially after doing similar-length sets on Sunday and Monday.

So the set was supposed to be 1000 fly total but I did 1050. Didn't realize it until I was walking out of the building.

Okay, and I was feeling like I had a good day going 650 meters of fly, mixed up with free and in a 400 IM. I bow to the north and am impressed.:banana:

That Guy
June 8th, 2010, 06:15 PM
I had a good day going 650 meters of fly, mixed up with free and in a 400 IM:banana:

Great job swimmj!

Herb
June 8th, 2010, 08:47 PM
When I do the 50 fly I feel like I am going really fast, but I am actually going slow. I finally have the endurance to go all out (and put my head down for 3 or 4 strokes - I am faster that way) yet my time is only 31. My kick is very weak - is it possible that could be four seconds or so?
This was by far my best stroke as a kid and I can't believe I suck so bad now. My other theory is that most of butterfly development occurs in high school or beyond after more muscle development?

That Guy
June 8th, 2010, 11:13 PM
When I do the 50 fly I feel like I am going really fast, but I am actually going slow. I finally have the endurance to go all out (and put my head down for 3 or 4 strokes - I am faster that way) yet my time is only 31. My kick is very weak - is it possible that could be four seconds or so?
This was by far my best stroke as a kid and I can't believe I suck so bad now. My other theory is that most of butterfly development occurs in high school or beyond after more muscle development?

Keep working on that kick. It's the locomotive in fly. I do see some people swim fly seemingly with nothing but their arms. I once watched in amazement as an Olympian swam the fly leg of a 400 LCM IM that way. His DPS was terrible and his stroke count was astronomical, but nevertheless he was moving reasonably fast. I have no desire to swim fly that way though. Dolphin kick!!!

orca1946
June 8th, 2010, 11:53 PM
I at 64 , have mastered the slow be sure method of 200 fly.

BillS
June 9th, 2010, 01:21 PM
I at 64 , have mastered the slow be sure method of 200 fly.

I, at 49, have mastered nothing at all. But I do keep trying. :)

debaru
June 10th, 2010, 01:22 PM
I, at 55, have finally begun to "master" butterfly, thanks to the expert coaching I received at SwimFest '10 last weekend. :bliss:

Prior to last weekend, I had never been able to swim an entire pool length of butterfly, but that is no longer the case. Now that I'm back home, I plan on swimming at least one length during my twice weekly workouts, and building from there. I have a long way to go, but at least I've finally begun the journey.

hedgehog
June 10th, 2010, 02:18 PM
I got this from my old coach. He made a couple of his own add-ins.
He was a butterflier and the one who got me into the 200.

For the Athlete Who Has It All
By KEVIN HELLIKER
Like many fitness swimmers, I can go mile after mile of freestyle without stopping. But a single lap of the butterfly stroke leaves me gasping.
Of the four strokes swum in competition, butterfly is almost universally regarded as more exhausting than freestyle, breaststroke or backstroke. And therein lies its allure. In an age of ultramarathons, Ironman triathlons and crowds chugging up Mount Everest, long-distance butterfly swimming is becoming a new and less-crowded frontier for fitness fanatics. It's also hugely advantageous, because fly swimming, as it's known, requires enormous strengthening of every muscle in the body, particularly the core muscles in the abdomen and back.
The butterfly is a notoriously difficult stroke, but Tom Boettcher is one of a growing number of fanatics who are learning to swim it for miles. He gives WSJ reporter Kevin Helliker some tips for improving his stroke.
Tom Boettcher, a high-tech entrepreneur in Chicago, recently swam butterfly from Alcatraz Island to San Francisco, a distance of 1.5 miles, across choppy waters. And summer after summer he competes in the Big Shoulders 5K—a 3.1-mile race in Lake Michigan—swimming every stroke butterfly. "There are times when I'm utterly wasted at the end, and times when I could swim an extra mile or two, depending on how choppy and cold the water is," says the 45-year-old.
Swimming 500 meters or more of non-stop butterfly can place an athlete in a truly elite, if unofficial, club. For context, consider that while the longest Olympic freestyle event is 6.2 miles, the longest stretch of butterfly performed in the Games is 200 meters, or one eighth of a mile.
Nobody knows how many swimmers are flying for distance these days, and there's no distance-flying regulatory body to set standards such as whether wetsuits can be worn in open-water swims. But the mere sight of a swimmer doing mile after mile or lap after lap of butterfly in competitions otherwise teeming with freestylers garners attention of the sort that merely finishing an Ironman triathlon no longer generates. Dan Projansky has won publicity in half a dozen newspapers and magazines for his long-distance open-water races swimming butterfly. "Everybody seems to think I'm a kook," says Mr. Projansky, 52, an insurance salesman in northern Illinois. It is also said that he gets lucky far more often he did before.
People who swim freestyle, the most popular stroke in the U.S. which is also known as the front crawl, are taught to glide through the water in a fashion that creates the sensation of swimming downhill. In the butterfly, however, both arms come forward simultaneously and pull the chest above the top of the water while the feet perform typically a two-beat dolphin kick. More than any other stroke, the butterfly feels akin to swimming uphill.
"There's a huge surge of propulsion as the arms pull you forward, then a deceleration during the recovery," says Steven Munatones, a former coach of U.S. Olympic distance swimmers. "Compared with the consistent acceleration of freestyle, fly is like giving a vehicle the gas and then the brakes, gas and then brakes. It's very taxing."
As hard as it can be to swim butterfly over long distances, the fundamentals of the stroke can be mastered in a single lesson with a good coach. Swim instructors highly recommend it because the butterfly burns more calories and strengthens more muscles than any other stroke. Fifteen minutes of butterfly can provide similar benefits to 30 to 45 minutes of freestyle, says Mr. Boettcher.
Also, so few adults master the butterfly that swimming a single length of it can confer a certain status upon a swimmer. "In a lap pool full of fitness swimmers, one lap of butterfly will turn heads," says Mr. Munatones. "It gives people the impression that you're a more-talented swimmer." An instant legend so to speak....
Helping to inspire today's distance fly swimmers is a recent fitness-world emphasis on strengthening the body's core muscles. Great butterfly swimmers have always boasted powerful torsos. As a world-record-setting teenage girl, "I had such a strong core that I had to wear boy's pants," says Mary T. Meagher, who won three gold medals swimming butterfly at the 1984 Olympics. Now a 45-year-old mother outside Atlanta, Ms. Meagher garnered the nickname Madam Butterfly for having held two world records for nearly 20 years—an achievement that ranks among the greatest in sports history.
To strengthen his core, Mr. Boettcher, the distance flyer, says he spends two hours training on dry land for every hour he spends in the pool. The author of a book called Core Training, Mr. Boettcher uses tai chi, ballet and Pilates, as well as exercises such as sit ups, "in order to swim the butterfly optimally." In the water, he trains for hours underwater, propelling himself forward like a dolphin, arms at his side.
A different strategy for distance fly has been developed recently by Terry Laughlin, the 59-year-old founder of Total Immersion, a national swim-improvement program. Mr. Laughlin, who has been a competitive swimmer since childhood, says he found early on that he could swim mile upon mile of freestyle, but barely muster more than 50 yards of butterfly. Frustrated, he spent hours in the pool performing drills that he hoped would expand his fly range. But "that goal eluded me for 40 years," he says.
Five years ago, Mr. Laughlin says he was studying video footage of Olympics champion Michael Phelps when he noticed that after the young man's chest hit the water, "he simply held a streamline, for a nanosecond, while allowing himself to sink." Employing a similar technique, Mr. Laughlin found that it reserved his strength. Accepting that his torso was less flexible than when he was younger, he also began substituting the frog-like kick of the breaststroke for the butterfly's dolphin kick, even though this movement would be outlawed in college or Olympic competitions. Now, Mr. Laughlin swims butterfly "with no fatigue nor any reason to stop other than a desire to do something else," he says

That Guy
June 10th, 2010, 08:52 PM
I, at 55, have finally begun to "master" butterfly, thanks to the expert coaching I received at SwimFest '10 last weekend. :bliss:

Prior to last weekend, I had never been able to swim an entire pool length of butterfly, but that is no longer the case. Now that I'm back home, I plan on swimming at least one length during my twice weekly workouts, and building from there. I have a long way to go, but at least I've finally begun the journey.

Great stuff! Track how much fly you swim each workout and try to improve it over time. As your conditioning for the stroke improves, you will be able to do more distance per fly swim (25's, 50's, etc) and more fly per workout.

debaru
June 11th, 2010, 12:10 PM
Great stuff! Track how much fly you swim each workout and try to improve it over time. As your conditioning for the stroke improves, you will be able to do more distance per fly swim (25's, 50's, etc) and more fly per workout.

Thanks, That Guy! I swam a 25 both mornings this week. It's the last thing I do before warming down, but I was wondering whether it would be better to do my butterfly practice after my initial warm-up, when I'm fresher? Also, by how much per week should I realistically increase my distance during my workouts?

I'm in pretty good swimming shape, so I'm thinking at the very least I need to add more SDKs to my kicking workouts (my group swims freestyle exclusively) and butterfly drills to help with conditioning my "fly" muscles.

I appreciate the encouragement and any tips you can share.

That Guy
June 11th, 2010, 03:52 PM
Thanks, That Guy! I swam a 25 both mornings this week. It's the last thing I do before warming down, but I was wondering whether it would be better to do my butterfly practice after my initial warm-up, when I'm fresher? Also, by how much per week should I realistically increase my distance during my workouts?

I'm in pretty good swimming shape, so I'm thinking at the very least I need to add more SDKs to my kicking workouts (my group swims freestyle exclusively) and butterfly drills to help with conditioning my "fly" muscles.

I appreciate the encouragement and any tips you can share.

When to swim different parts of a workout (warm-up, main set, drills. kicking, race pace swim, etc) seems like a personal preference thing to me. Do what works for you. As for the rest, take a long term and conservative view. Set a goal to improve by some reasonable % in the next year, two years, five years, etc. If you get there sooner than expected, then that's a great problem to have, and you then get to recalibrate your goals for the better. The flip side of that is that on this forum, typically when I see people post that they think they can improve something by X% in the next Y weeks, it generally doesn't happen because the timeframe was too short and/or the % improvement was unrealistic.

laminarman
June 17th, 2010, 06:41 PM
Had an idea last week to try some long distance fly as a personal challenge and a great way to cross train for the finswimming and freediving competition that I do (core strength, efficiency).

Thought I'd give a 10k open water race with fly a go next summer. Did the 10k two years ago freestyle.

Here in Vancouver, we have a 137.5m pool. On Wednesday I tried to see what I could maintain, and managed only 50-60m of fly at a stretch, before lapsing into freestyle. I think the lack of walls is definitely a factor as they do give you rest and the chance to reset your stroke. I did this over 1000m and felt rather discouraged.

Last night after coaching, I jumped into the pool and without really much fuss on my part swam 500m fly non-stop in the pool.

After last night's swim, I am quite excited. It is definitely a different style of fly that got me through the 500m without much difficulty. Long glide in streamline and the smallest head tilt to get air. And crucial was getting my chest lower than my shoulders (ie. arching the upper back) on every stroke. It wasn't particularly fast, but encouraging.

The long glide seems especially important for letting your muscles stay out of the red zone as even a second helps to recharge them for the next stroke.

But given the small margin for error on breathing (head lift/hips falling), swimming in chop sounds grueling!

I've found this thread after searching for others who have trained in long-distance fly. Some helpful stuff on this thread. Thanks to everyone.

Anyone try longer swims? Anyone stumble across long-distance fly training and technique experiences on the web?

If you've heard of any references that I could look up beyond what is here, that would be a great help.

Thanks!
Pete

tjrpatt
June 17th, 2010, 07:04 PM
Had an idea last week to try some long distance fly as a personal challenge and a great way to cross train for the finswimming and freediving competition that I do (core strength, efficiency).

Thought I'd give a 10k open water race with fly a go next summer. Did the 10k two years ago freestyle.

Here in Vancouver, we have a 137.5m pool. On Wednesday I tried to see
Pete

People who play golf have their golf destinations trips. This pool would count as a swimming destination trip. Gosh, I have to swim at this pool one day!

arthur
June 17th, 2010, 08:16 PM
People who play golf have their golf destinations trips. This pool would count as a swimming destination trip. Gosh, I have to swim at this pool one day!
The Kitsilano pool is an outdoor pool and the longest in Canada. It is on the beach and definitely worth visiting if in Vancouver in the summer.
http://insidevancouver.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/img_1379.jpg

That Guy
June 18th, 2010, 12:13 AM
I've found this thread after searching for others who have trained in long-distance fly. Some helpful stuff on this thread. Thanks to everyone.

Anyone try longer swims? Anyone stumble across long-distance fly training and technique experiences on the web?

If you've heard of any references that I could look up beyond what is here, that would be a great help.

Check this out: http://www.thomasboettcher.org/RecordFly/default.htm

That Guy
June 21st, 2010, 12:28 AM
I've posted some long fly sets, and some medium fly sets, so here's a short one that I swam today. I'm tapering for NW LCM Zones so I'm pushing myself to swim at race pace every workout.

100 fly on 4:00 (went 1:06)
75 fly on 3:00 (went 47)
50 fly on 2:00 (went 29)
25 fly AFAP (went 13)

As you can see, I didn't really get to race pace until the 50. I've got room for improvement, but it wasn't bad. I will encounter and get through the "dead spot" in my taper within the next 7-10 days and then nail this set.

Couroboros
June 21st, 2010, 03:00 AM
On Saturday, I finished my first ever butterfly race. It was a 100. The meet was also my first LCM meet ever. So, a double-whammy: fly AND LCM. All in all, I did pretty good. Came in at 1:37. My coach said I kept my form the whole time. I have to admit, though, at the end of that race, I was so glad it was just 100. I still want to do the 200 fly, eventually, though. Maybe in August.

That Guy
June 21st, 2010, 09:42 AM
On Saturday, I finished my first ever butterfly race. It was a 100. The meet was also my first LCM meet ever. So, a double-whammy: fly AND LCM. All in all, I did pretty good. Came in at 1:37. My coach said I kept my form the whole time. I have to admit, though, at the end of that race, I was so glad it was just 100. I still want to do the 200 fly, eventually, though. Maybe in August.

Good job!

tjrpatt
June 21st, 2010, 09:46 AM
The Kitsilano pool is an outdoor pool and the longest in Canada. It is on the beach and definitely worth visiting if in Vancouver in the summer.
http://insidevancouver.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/img_1379.jpg

very cool! I am in awe! and great view!

SolarEnergy
June 21st, 2010, 11:05 AM
100 fly on 4:00 (went 1:06)
75 fly on 3:00 (went 47)
50 fly on 2:00 (went 29)
25 fly AFAP (went 13)

Very well designed simple set. If you got it during a master swimmer club swim, then you should feel blessed to have a master swimmer coach capable of calibrating race pace intervals.

A lot of them don't seem to understand the concept of "fast swimming calls for longer rest". Well it's at least the case for the 2 coaches leading the two different clubs where I sometimes train. But I bet you were alone :D

That Guy
June 21st, 2010, 12:26 PM
Very well designed simple set. If you got it during a master swimmer club swim, then you should feel blessed to have a master swimmer coach capable of calibrating race pace intervals.

A lot of them don't seem to understand the concept of "fast swimming calls for longer rest". Well it's at least the case for the 2 coaches leading the two different clubs where I sometimes train. But I bet you were alone :D

Right you are! I train alone so I get to set whatever intervals I want. :banana: I also never use pull buoys, fins, or paddles, and rarely use a kickboard. "Pulling sets do more harm than good" is another concept that we can add to the list...

ElaineK
June 21st, 2010, 01:02 PM
I, at 55, have finally begun to "master" butterfly, thanks to the expert coaching I received at SwimFest '10 last weekend. :bliss:

Prior to last weekend, I had never been able to swim an entire pool length of butterfly, but that is no longer the case. Now that I'm back home, I plan on swimming at least one length during my twice weekly workouts, and building from there. I have a long way to go, but at least I've finally begun the journey.

Way to go, Deb! :cheerleader: So, that answers one of my questions in the P.M. I posted to you! Glad to hear you enjoyed it! :D

SolarEnergy
June 21st, 2010, 01:25 PM
Right you are! I train alone so I get to set whatever intervals I want. :banana: I also never use pull buoys, fins, or paddles, and rarely use a kickboard. "Pulling sets do more harm than good" is another concept that we can add to the list... I decided to solve this problem by downgrading lane. Tonight will be the first time I try it. If the workout is aimed at working on our specialty (fly in my case), I'll book it with swimmers that are much slower than me, to allow for sufficient recovery time.

Otherwise, it pisses me off waaaay to much. Coaches that do not understand that ultra fast swimming is not compatible with tight intervals.

SolarEnergy
June 21st, 2010, 09:46 PM
Finally, That Guy, this is what I did. Downgraded lane, even downgraded coach :)

Allowed me to do (long course meter):
400 @ 50m Free / 50m Fly
300 Fly
200 kick
100 pull

4x200 Fly (aerobic) with 30sec rest (was probably holding 3:45, not any faster, following some breaststrokers)
4x100 Free descending 1-4 30s rest
4x50 Fly descending 1-4 30s rest (last one in 35 flat, happy with this)

No board (even on the kick)

My goal in performing this volume of fly was to work on a specific thing. Making sure that my bum was breaking the surface on every down beat of the first kick. I tend to neglect kicking at slower speed. I worked on Phelps splashless entries too, but that I always do anyway while performing base mileage at my favorite stroke.

That Guy
June 21st, 2010, 10:21 PM
Finally, That Guy, this is what I did. Downgraded lane, even downgraded coach :)

Allowed me to do (long course meter):
400 @ 50m Free / 50m Fly
300 Fly
200 kick
100 pull

4x200 Fly (aerobic) with 30sec rest (was probably holding 3:45, not any faster, following some breaststrokers)
4x100 Free descending 1-4 30s rest
4x50 Fly descending 1-4 30s rest (last one in 35 flat, happy with this)

No board (even on the kick)

My goal in performing this volume of fly was to work on a specific thing. Making sure that my bum was breaking the surface on every down beat of the first kick. I tend to neglect kicking at slower speed. I worked on Phelps splashless entries too, but that I always do anyway while performing base mileage at my favorite stroke.

Great stuff! Maybe someday I will figure out how to swim fly aerobically. Until then, I don't see how I could complete this set. The 300 and then the 4 200's would be very problematic for me, especially in LCM.

bboyalx
June 21st, 2010, 10:25 PM
Anyone one got a workokout that can help me out, I wanna cut 20 seconds off my 100 fly lol, my best time is 1:26

That Guy
June 21st, 2010, 10:59 PM
Anyone one got a workokout that can help me out, I wanna cut 20 seconds off my 100 fly lol, my best time is 1:26

I don't have enough to go on here so I'll fall back to my standard "kick harder" :D

SolarEnergy
June 22nd, 2010, 03:30 AM
Anyone one got a workokout that can help me out, I wanna cut 20 seconds off my 100 fly lol, my best time is 1:26 How many fast 100s do you perform per week? And for how long have you been doing it?

adsollm
June 22nd, 2010, 10:11 AM
so i found out by not touching fly (or the pool really for that matter) for about 4 1/2 years... my fly has suddenly smoothed out and i now have an upbeat in my kick. weird.

yesterday i decided to do my first fly 'set'... if you could call it that? did 4x25 on the 45. looks like i went between 14-16 on all of them from a push. anyways, my first day of attempting to do butterfly was good i guess. i'll keep building until im able to hold form through a 50 again.

That Guy
June 22nd, 2010, 03:56 PM
Good stuff. You gotta start somewhere. Sounds like you have good speed to build on.

laminarman
June 27th, 2010, 06:52 PM
Update: After a trip out of town and no swimming, I went back to Kits pool (yes, it IS a great place to visit, do come!) and tried my luck swimming fly again.

Managed to do 8 x 137.50m of fly with 10-15 second intervals. Time was roughly 20-25 minutes. I wasn't keeping track of the speed so much as whether I could swum the set without stopping.

It really hit home that fly is really about the core undulation and keeping the hips high.

On that basis, I decided to enter a local 1 km lake swim this Thursday and also a 3km race on August 14th.

I'm pretty excited!!!!!

That Guy
June 27th, 2010, 08:13 PM
Update: After a trip out of town and no swimming, I went back to Kits pool (yes, it IS a great place to visit, do come!) and tried my luck swimming fly again.

Managed to do 8 x 137.50m of fly with 10-15 second intervals. Time was roughly 20-25 minutes. I wasn't keeping track of the speed so much as whether I could swum the set without stopping.

It really hit home that fly is really about the core undulation and keeping the hips high.

On that basis, I decided to enter a local 1 km lake swim this Thursday and also a 3km race on August 14th.

I'm pretty excited!!!!!

Waitjustaminutehere, are you implying that you're going to swim FLY in those OW races? :notworthy:

Regardless, I need to visit that pool. I only live around 3 hours away... I've visited Vancouver twice and have never swum there :sad:

laminarman
June 27th, 2010, 08:31 PM
Yep, that's the plan. We'll see if I need to do a little breaststroke now and then to rest my neck. But hopefully not.

I read the article on Tom's approach. Very cool. I need to know if his breaching photo in the article is with or without fins (!). I once saw a swimmer in Florida (Coral Springs) launching himself up to his knees/maybe shins without fins and was pretty impressed.

And I have seen near full breaches by finswimmers and freedivers. It's like the holy grail for some of us to be able to do that without help from a wave (punching out the back of it).

With the focus on the soles of the feet part of the undulation I'm encouraged...ie. the dolphin debutante. :angel:

knelson
June 28th, 2010, 11:06 AM
OK, That Guy, I entered the 200 fly at the NW Zone meet. What's our gridge going to be? I have a feeling you're going to dust me, especially if you'll be rested. My goal right now is to finish the event legally. :bolt:

That Guy
June 28th, 2010, 11:41 AM
OK, That Guy, I entered the 200 fly at the NW Zone meet. What's our gridge going to be? I have a feeling you're going to dust me, especially if you'll be rested. My goal right now is to finish the event legally. :bolt:

Excellent! Yes, I will be rested. How about this idea for a gridge: whoever posts a difference between 100's closest to +4 seconds wins. So a first 100 of 1:10.00 followed by a second 100 of 1:14.00 means a difference of 4.00 seconds, the ideal outcome.

knelson
June 28th, 2010, 11:53 AM
How about this idea for a gridge: whoever posts a difference between 100's closest to +4 seconds wins.

I like it. You're on.

SolarEnergy
June 28th, 2010, 09:48 PM
My new cycle has begun. In prep for next Spring's Nationals, I resumed Base Fly work.

Today I did 45min of hard cross-training threshold (last 15min @ 95% Vo2Max). Then I jumped in the pool for a 800 fly done as 3 under water SDK, 5 surface SDK and 5 full fly strokes. I'll increase the duration of this workout up to 1500 fly.

laminarman
July 2nd, 2010, 12:16 AM
Swam the 1km today at Sasamat Lake (vowsa.bc.ca) fly. Finished it! Managed a time of 20.59. Pretty pleased with the time as finishing was my main interest.

Felt good in the last 400m, but was pretty tired when I stopped. Swam without a wetsuit and I believe the water was about 17C. Felt like I was suffering from windchill (waterchill?) from moving through the water as my left leg started to shiver in the last third of the swim.

Still trying to figure out exactly how the upbeat kick works in my stroke. Not sure I am really aware of it yet. And whether I like a double kick style or single kick style for open water. I think if my body can handle the double kick style, it feels better and I could benefit from the momentum and higher hips.

SolarEnergy
July 2nd, 2010, 10:50 AM
Wow congratulations! The time ain't bad at all neither. 2min /100 for a full kilo is pretty fast I find.

Well done!

knelson
July 11th, 2010, 11:59 PM
How about this idea for a gridge: whoever posts a difference between 100's closest to +4 seconds wins. So a first 100 of 1:10.00 followed by a second 100 of 1:14.00 means a difference of 4.00 seconds, the ideal outcome.

Just checking the preliminary results I see splits of 1:14.01 and 1:23.48 for me. Pretty bad, but then when I look at That Guy's splits I see 38.53 and 1:46.79. That first 100 does seem a little fast, but who am I to argue with the touchpads? Looks like I win the gridge... :bolt:

That Guy
July 12th, 2010, 01:47 AM
Just checking the preliminary results I see splits of 1:14.01 and 1:23.48 for me. Pretty bad, but then when I look at That Guy's splits I see 38.53 and 1:46.79. That first 100 does seem a little fast, but who am I to argue with the touchpads? Looks like I win the gridge... :bolt:

Yeah I was in lane 4, which malfunctioned all weekend... so although my split difference [appears to have] sucked, I did [appear to] chop 11 seconds off Phelps' 100 fly record, so I've got that [apparently] going for me... oh noes!!! I forgot to submit a split request form :doh: and a urine sample

My mom took some digital video of this race, I will share it when it's available...

Gydra
July 12th, 2010, 04:13 AM
How many world records were set at that meet? That sure was something to see!

That Guy
July 12th, 2010, 10:34 AM
How many world records were set at that meet? That sure was something to see!

Maybe ten? Megan Jendrick set three, I think Charlotte Davis got a couple as well, and there were a few relays. Megan's records were a 31 50 breast, 2:04 200 free, and 1:10 100 breast. She also swam a 28 50 fly that was pretty close to the record for W25-29. That's right, a 2008 Olympian attended a Masters meet that didn't allow tech suits! :banana:

Anyway to keep this post on topic, I barely missed the LMSC record for the 200 LCM fly. 0.22 seconds. Should have kicked harder, as always! Knelson, now that you've swum the event, what are your thoughts?

knelson
July 12th, 2010, 12:32 PM
Knelson, now that you've swum the event, what are your thoughts?

My thoughts are I'm glad it's over!

It's definitely a different animal than a 200 fly short course. I think you can actually swim a good 200 fly short course just by doing lots of 25 flies in training. Not so for the long course event. To do a good long course 200 fly you need a stroke you can hold together for a long time and this means good tempo and a consistent kick. I know for me I fell into survival mode way too early. I hardly ever kick fly in workouts and I think next time I try a 200 fly this is something I'll need to do if I want to swim the race well.

That Guy
July 12th, 2010, 12:55 PM
My thoughts are I'm glad it's over!

It's definitely a different animal than a 200 fly short course. I think you can actually swim a good 200 fly short course just by doing lots of 25 flies in training. Not so for the long course event. To do a good long course 200 fly you need a stroke you can hold together for a long time and this means good tempo and a consistent kick. I know for me I fell into survival mode way too early. I hardly ever kick fly in workouts and I think next time I try a 200 fly this is something I'll need to do if I want to swim the race well.

I agree about the kick. In practice, I often swim the last 25 of a fly swim with the biggest kick I can summon. Yesterday I pushed off the last wall and tried to swim the last 50 with the big kick. Since I was already tired, the big kick only lasted maybe 20 meters before I realized I had to revert to my normal kick or else the piano would drop. It seems stupidly obvious now: if I want to use a big kick for 50 meters, I have to practice it that way! Alternately, I could have waited until 175 meters to start the big kick. That might have worked, though I'm not accustomed to increasing my kick in the middle of a length.

That Guy
July 13th, 2010, 02:09 AM
As promised... Lane 4: That Guy. Lane 5: Knelson. Rich Seibert on the mic, cracking jokes at our expense :)

[COLOR=#0066cc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyDvwOseQ0w[/COLO"]YouTube- 2010-07 Masters Doug 200 Fly

knelson
July 13th, 2010, 11:06 AM
You look great through the 150, but then you can definitely see the fatigue set in. As you mentioned, you had a hard time keeping your arms above the water on the last 50. I noticed neither of us has a kick where our feet come close to the surface. Contrast this with the video of Mary T Meagher YouTube- Mary T. Meagher where her butt surfaces on every stroke cycle and you can at least see the splash from her feet.

Nice video, by the way! That camera did a good job with the low light conditions.

That Guy
July 18th, 2010, 12:33 AM
You look great through the 150, but then you can definitely see the fatigue set in. As you mentioned, you had a hard time keeping your arms above the water on the last 50. I noticed neither of us has a kick where our feet come close to the surface. Contrast this with the video of Mary T Meagher YouTube- Mary T. Meagher (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lmCEjE0if0) where her butt surfaces on every stroke cycle and you can at least see the splash from her feet.

Nice video, by the way! That camera did a good job with the low light conditions.

I've watched this video at least 10 times. My main takeaway is that I have a lazy kick that I have to correct. I've been working on it all week and will continue to drill into it this season. So far, when I kick with greater (but not maximum) amplitude, it pans out like this:

- a 50-second 75 turns into a 48-second 75
- a 32-second 50 turns into a 30-high or 31-low 50
- a 15-second 25 turns into a 14-second 25

How much of that is due to the aftereffects of my recent taper and shave? Too early to say. I will keep up the better kick and see where it takes me this training cycle.

ElaineK
July 18th, 2010, 05:02 PM
Hi guys! Mind if I drop in from The Breaststroke Lane for a visit? After breaststroke, the IM was my other event to round out my high school meet line-up. Then, if the coach needed me, I was thrown into the 100 fly. :afraid:

Since joining USMS, in February, I have only competed in breaststroke, including at Nationals. Now, I'm focusing on the other strokes, as well, to prepare for a pentathlon, where I will be competing in each stroke, as well as the IM. So, I'm bringing more fly into my workouts.

Question: For somebody who has had past neck and shoulder injuries (and major shoulder surgery) unrelated to swimming, what would be a less stressful breathing technique for fly; traditional breathing or turning my head to the side to breathe? I'm more concerned with avoiding injury than being faster. I plan on being in this for the long haul... :D

Cheers!
:chug:

That Guy
July 18th, 2010, 08:46 PM
Question: For somebody who has had past neck and shoulder injuries (and major shoulder surgery) unrelated to swimming, what would be a less stressful breathing technique for fly; traditional breathing or turning my head to the side to breathe? I'm more concerned with avoiding injury than being faster. I plan on being in this for the long haul...

Do whichever feels better for you. In general there's no speed difference between breathing like Mel Stewart or breathing like most everyone else. But there may be advantages for individuals, such as less neck strain if you tend to go vertical. When I swim fly in the ocean, I breathe to my side so I can see the next wave coming and duck under at the appropriate time. There's a guy at my gym who always breathes to his right... in breaststroke! I don't know why he does it but hey, it seems to work for him.

swimflyfast
July 19th, 2010, 06:48 AM
Three of us are swimming the "core set" of this workout within each of our workouts in preparation for 750meter open water fly swim next month.

Warm UP
300 free, 100 fly, 200 kick, 100 fly
2 x (3 x 75 1st 25 fly 50 free, 1st 50 fly 25 free, 75 fly)

2 x 200 odd lengths fly even free

Core Set (we have been putting this in the middle of our workout. We are doing our best to pace ourselves to hold the same time. Typically the first 100 is faster but the rest of them we try to keep within 5 seconds of each other. For the long race it is important that we feel the pace that we want to do for the entire race so we don't go out too fast.) Watch the clock!

8x 100 Fy Fastest Possible Sendoff plus 15
EZ 50 free
Rest 2 min
3 x 100 Fly Fastest Possible Sendoff plus 15
Rest 2 min
Sprint 100 fly Under 1:10

Warm down
6 x 25 kick half way sprint rest of the way odd lengths fly.
200 EZ

I have been wearing legskins during most of my practices. I have found that they allow me to hold my stroke together much longer during my workouts and my times are dropping. We will be able to wear them during the race since it is the first leg of a triathlon. I have eliminated "vertical fly" by wearing these and have much less shoulder trouble as well. (Glucosamine helps too)

Charlie

That Guy
July 22nd, 2010, 01:48 PM
Three of us are swimming the "core set" of this workout within each of our workouts in preparation for 750meter open water fly swim next month.

Make sure to let us know how it goes!

I'm continuing to work on my stroke technique. My less-lazy kick has led to a better sine wave each stroke cycle, slower turnover rate, and greater speed. If I can get the kick, the sine wave, and EVF all working in harmony, then I should see some time drops this fall.

That Guy
August 4th, 2010, 12:30 AM
Since my long course season ended on July 11, I've been base-building for the upcoming SCM season. A typical workout runs 2500-3000 yards. A warmup followed by 3 sets of 400-600 yards. The first 2 of these sets are aerobic (backstroke, freestyle, or IM - pick two, rotate daily) and then the third is an anaerobic fly set. One effect of this is that every day, I start the fly set dog tired. Here's what I did today:

800 IM stroke drill on 13:00 (50 left, 50 right, 50 kick, 50 full-stroke. Except breaststroke which is all stroke count - 5 or 6 strokes per 25)
6 x 100 backstroke on 1:30 (fastest 1:13 slowest 1:16; 10+ SDK & 9 or fewer strokes per 25)
100 easy
3 x 200 IM on 3:00 (2:36, 2:36, 2:37)
100 easy
4 x 75 fly on 2:00 (49, 49, 48, 48)
4 x 50 fly on 1:30 (31, 31, 31, 30)
4 x 25 fly on 0:40 (14, 14, 14, 14)
200 easy
(3000 yards, including 800 fly, 55:30, and of course that's only the swimming part of the workout)

I think my fly has changed quite a bit since the Youtube video posted above. I've been focusing on a bigger kick, hands entering shoulder-width apart, and a bigger sine wave. I have no idea what I look like from the pool deck but I do like those times, especially given that I was already tired when the set started.

SolarEnergy
August 4th, 2010, 04:06 PM
Do whichever feels better for you. In general there's no speed difference between breathing like Mel Stewart or breathing like most everyone else. But there may be advantages for individuals, such as less neck strain if you tend to go vertical. When I swim fly in the ocean, I breathe to my side so I can see the next wave coming and duck under at the appropriate time. There's a guy at my gym who always breathes to his right... in breaststroke! I don't know why he does it but hey, it seems to work for him.
Always fun to read, your comments I mean.

Not much to add. Go with what feels best. Side breathing for fly isn't klondike. For a lot of people including me, it's more susceptible to create pain/injuries than to prevent them.

But it works for several fly specialists of all levels.

orca1946
August 4th, 2010, 04:09 PM
I have been side breathing for 15 years. I guess coming from distance free , it made more sense to me.

swimflyfast
August 4th, 2010, 04:13 PM
You are missing all the fun of seeing all the people ahead of you that you are about to pass when you breath to the side!

ande
August 24th, 2010, 10:41 AM
Since we're at the beginning of a new season
I thought I'd bump all the lanes to see which one is winning

bzaks1424
August 24th, 2010, 01:48 PM
I literally just started learning fly last Thursday (08/19)! My coach even says I can perform it legally and better than some! Ha ha ha! Now about that speed part... Are there any fun drills I can do to help increase my speed and confirm proper form?

That Guy
August 24th, 2010, 01:52 PM
I literally just started learning fly last Thursday (08/19)! My coach even says I can perform it legally and better than some! Ha ha ha! Now about that speed part... Are there any fun drills I can do to help increase my speed and confirm proper form?

underwater dolphin kick, dolphin kick with a kickboard, vertical dolphin kick...

swimflyfast
August 24th, 2010, 01:52 PM
Kick 500 yards fly with your hands behind your back 3 times a week.*

bzaks1424
August 24th, 2010, 02:01 PM
underwater dolphin kick, dolphin kick with a kickboard, vertical dolphin kick...

How does one do the vertical dolphin kick?

That Guy
August 24th, 2010, 02:51 PM
How does one do the vertical dolphin kick?

You will need some deep water.

YouTube- Swimming - BUTTERFLY - Vertical Kick

bzaks1424
August 25th, 2010, 09:54 AM
You will need some deep water.

YouTube- Swimming - BUTTERFLY - Vertical Kick (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5pj-zTrXuA)
Since my phone has decided to be a :censor: today. I'll not be able to watch that video until I get home @ 11 tonight :(

ElaineK
August 25th, 2010, 05:59 PM
Since my phone has decided to be a :censor: today. I'll not be able to watch that video until I get home @ 11 tonight :(

I just watched it. :afraid:I have my work cut out for me... :blush:

SolarEnergy
August 26th, 2010, 10:27 PM
Awesome clip.

What I like with these drills is that the constraint becomes the coach.

Could read my newspaper quietly whilst the guys are performing this. I only need 10mins to crawl to sports pages :D

Karl_S
September 2nd, 2010, 12:53 PM
Last evening I was browsing YouTube swimming videos and I noticed something quite remarkable: Mary T. Meagher's winning time in the 200 fly at the 1984 Olympics of 2:06.90 was exactly the same as Jessica Schipper's winning time at the recent Pan-Pacs! We are talking about two very talented swimmers here, separated by 26 years, and that gives a lot to think about.

Here is the link to the video if you want to watch it:
YouTube- 1984 Olympic Women's 200m Butterfly final - Mary T. Meagher


For all of the female butterflyers in their late 40's, you had better hope Mary T. doesn't decide to take up Masters swimming, but wouldn't it be fun to watch!

That Guy
September 2nd, 2010, 03:49 PM
Last evening I was browsing YouTube swimming videos and I noticed something quite remarkable: Mary T. Meagher's winning time in the 200 fly at the 1984 Olympics of 2:06.90 was exactly the same as Jessica Schipper's winning time at the recent Pan-Pacs! We are talking about two very talented swimmers here, separated by 26 years, and that gives a lot to think about.

Here is the link to the video if you want to watch it:
YouTube- 1984 Olympic Women's 200m Butterfly final - Mary T. Meagher (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhDDyCvaEIY)


For all of the female butterflyers in their late 40's, you had better hope Mary T. doesn't decide to take up Masters swimming, but wouldn't it be fun to watch!

Mary T is the greatest flyer ever. It's not hard to see why.

swimflyfast
September 2nd, 2010, 03:54 PM
Mary T is the greatest flyer ever. It's not hard to see why.

No Goggles!!! Remember those days!

thewookiee
September 2nd, 2010, 03:58 PM
When she is swimming fly, it looks as though she circles her arms back into the water, instead of trying to stretch for the wall each time.

I have been told to "reach for the wall, like a finish" on each stroke. Her stroke appears to let the arms just fall back into the water, gracefully, but not to reach.

bzaks1424
September 2nd, 2010, 07:17 PM
Last evening I was browsing YouTube swimming videos and I noticed something quite remarkable: Mary T. Meagher's winning time in the 200 fly at the 1984 Olympics of 2:06.90 was exactly the same as Jessica Schipper's winning time at the recent Pan-Pacs! We are talking about two very talented swimmers here, separated by 26 years, and that gives a lot to think about.

My mind is blown. Quite literally through the wall. That was the most amazing swim I think I've ever seen.

gdanner
September 2nd, 2010, 10:07 PM
I literally just started learning fly last Thursday (08/19)! My coach even says I can perform it legally and better than some! Ha ha ha! Now about that speed part... Are there any fun drills I can do to help increase my speed and confirm proper form?

Check out this link. It's a drill I just started doing a couple months ago. As a flyer, the logic behind it seems pretty sound.

http://www.usaswimming.org/ViewMiscArticle.aspx?TabId=1891&Alias=Rainbow&Lang=en&mid=9432&ItemId=4714

Other drills:

http://www.usaswimming.org/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabId=1891&Alias=Rainbow&Lang=en

Thrashing Slug
September 3rd, 2010, 01:55 PM
That looked... painful. I think I would rather beat myself in the head repeatedly with a rock than swim a 200 fly with no goggles.

orca1946
September 4th, 2010, 12:42 AM
I breathe to the right side when I do fly, it helps me keep chin & chest down.

philoswimmer
September 4th, 2010, 11:49 AM
No Goggles!!! Remember those days!

I noticed that, too! Made my eyes hurt just watching.

philoswimmer
September 4th, 2010, 12:02 PM
When she is swimming fly, it looks as though she circles her arms back into the water, instead of trying to stretch for the wall each time.

I have been told to "reach for the wall, like a finish" on each stroke. Her stroke appears to let the arms just fall back into the water, gracefully, but not to reach.

When I "reach for the wall," it seems to introduce an undesirable pause into my stroke. I like the little rest, but I don't think my times do.

That Guy
September 4th, 2010, 02:52 PM
When I "reach for the wall," it seems to introduce an undesirable pause into my stroke. I like the little rest, but I don't think my times do.

I've recently switched from the "reaching" style (as depicted in the video I posted back in July) to the "circling" style. I didn't have a pause in my stroke but I was reaching as far as I could. Now my stroke feels shorter but my stroke count hasn't changed. I undulate more, and I can breathe every stroke if I want to. Most importantly, the clock does not lie: I'm faster in the practice pool. :banana:

orca1946
September 7th, 2010, 05:01 PM
Time to get back in shape for the upcoming S C season.

swimflyfast
September 7th, 2010, 05:09 PM
Time to get back in shape for the upcoming S C season.

OK then here is a fun little fly kicking drill we do.

Put an elastic cord across the lanes beyond the backstroke flags on the close end and at the flags on the far end.

Kick out under water fly under the cord, when you get to the other end Kick under water, do a turn under water and kick out under the cord. Finish under first cord kicking under water to wall. 8 times 10-15 sec rest.

The person I have been training fly with for the past year has cut 1 second off her turn and I credit it to this drill directly.

Cheers and enjoy the air when you get it!

Charlie
life is short... Swim Fly!

That Guy
September 7th, 2010, 08:06 PM
Speaking of fly turns, check out Nick D'arcy in lane 3 in this video:

YouTube- 200 Butterfly - 2010 Mutual of Omaha Pan Pacific Championships

On his first and third turns, he does not appear to breathe, and on top of that, he takes more SDK's than most of the other guys in that final. (His second turn isn't shown in the video but he probably didn't breathe then either.) Impressive!

sjstuart
September 8th, 2010, 08:21 AM
Impressive, indeed.

Until I watched the video, I didn't know what you meant by not breathing on the turns. I thought maybe you meant not breathing on the first stroke after the turn. It hadn't occurred to me that you could skip the breath while executing the turn.

Even now that it has occurred to me, I'm sure I will never use that trick.

gdanner
September 8th, 2010, 09:08 AM
Speaking of fly turns, check out Nick D'arcy in lane 3 in this video:

YouTube- 200 Butterfly - 2010 Mutual of Omaha Pan Pacific Championships (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4AtwdPO8qM)

On his first and third turns, he does not appear to breathe, and on top of that, he takes more SDK's than most of the other guys in that final. (His second turn isn't shown in the video but he probably didn't breathe then either.) Impressive!

Seems very weird to breathe every stroke, then not breathe on the wall. I can't really see how it is any faster, but impressive lung capacity either way. I'm sure he wouldn't do it if it wasn't timed as being faster for him.

That Guy
September 8th, 2010, 09:47 AM
To me, not breathing off the turn means not taking a breath on your breakout stroke. Not breathing on the turn means doing what D'arcy did. And please note that "impressive" doesn't mean "I think I'll try that!"

sjstuart
September 8th, 2010, 12:27 PM
Your syntax was impeccable -- my mind just refused to consider that such a turn was possible. And my definition of "impressive" matches yours.

androvski
September 8th, 2010, 01:56 PM
Mintenko also did not breathe on his turns:

YouTube- Fly - Mintenko turn

Also, check out his amazing dolphin kick:

YouTube- Fly - Mintenko legs

slknight
September 15th, 2010, 01:27 PM
Today I did 10x100 fly (SCY). The first 5 were on 1:40. Minute break and then the next 5 were on 1:50.

I am wiped out. I am sitting here at work trying to decide if I'm going to pass out or throw up or both. :afraid:I won't be doing that set again. :drown: The rest of the group did 10x100 IM.

debaru
September 15th, 2010, 01:35 PM
Today I did 10x100 fly (SCY). The first 5 were on 1:40. Minute break and then the next 5 were on 1:50.

I am wiped out. I am sitting here at work trying to decide if I'm going to pass out or throw up or both. :afraid:I won't be doing that set again. :drown: The rest of the group did 10x100 IM.

:bow: I am not worthy!! I would be happy to be able to do 4x100 on 2:00.

swimflyfast
September 15th, 2010, 01:52 PM
Today I did 10x100 fly (SCY). The first 5 were on 1:40. Minute break and then the next 5 were on 1:50.

I am wiped out. I am sitting here at work trying to decide if I'm going to pass out or throw up or both. :afraid:I won't be doing that set again. :drown: The rest of the group did 10x100 IM.

You will find that the 2nd and 3rd time you do this will be easier!
Chin up!

bzaks1424
September 15th, 2010, 01:52 PM
Today I did 10x100 fly (SCY). The first 5 were on 1:40. Minute break and then the next 5 were on 1:50.

I am wiped out. I am sitting here at work trying to decide if I'm going to pass out or throw up or both. :afraid:I won't be doing that set again. :drown: The rest of the group did 10x100 IM.

http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/81/notworthy.gif <-- I played the part of both Wayne AND Garth in this instance.

slknight
September 15th, 2010, 01:56 PM
You will find that the 2nd and 3rd time you do this will be easier!
Chin up!

Nah, I don't think there will be a 2nd and 3rd time. Next week, the group is doing 15x100 IM, then 20x100 the following week, and so on until they hit 60. I think I'd better do IM. I did do a 3000 LCM fly for time once in my youth but I am feeling too old for this kind of thing now. :cane:

laminarman
September 15th, 2010, 01:57 PM
Today I did 10x100 fly (SCY). The first 5 were on 1:40. Minute break and then the next 5 were on 1:50.

I am wiped out. I am sitting here at work trying to decide if I'm going to pass out or throw up or both. :afraid:I won't be doing that set again. :drown: The rest of the group did 10x100 IM.

Nice pace!

I had another open water swim experience in August that I forgot to post here. I entered a local 3km open water swim and swam it fly.

Previously, the water was 22C/71F over the days preceding the race. I swam without a wetsuit because it just feels better and I have a better idea of my balance and buoyancy.

There were some wicked current (counter clockwise to the course) so I fought current the whole way. Finished 1.5km in just under 40 minutes and then started on the next loop and realized with sudden dismay that I was really, really cold.

I tried to swim another 100m, but my shivering had overcome me without warning. I went on my back to see if I could regain my composure. No such luck.

I'm a lifeguard and experienced with winter freediving so I knew that to go on wasn't safe. I called over another lifeguard over and got a free ride in the safety boat to shore. In the medical tent, I amused the guard there by shivering so hard that I couldn't drink my hot chocolate!

It was a lot of fun and a shame that the incoming tide churned up pockets of water that were 14-15C. A lot of people who swam without suits also ended up in the medical tent. A shame, because we had such great weather up until then.

I was pretty comfortable with the fly even after 1.5km. No aches or pains. However, with the current I could see how slow I was going. I had done 1km in 20 minutes in July.

Since then I've been experimenting with a faster stroke rate and quicker chest press so that I eliminate "dead spots" in my fly. It's hard to find a stroke rate that you can maintain for long distances, but I guess that's the challenge inherent in this pursuit of open water fly swimming.

Thanks for all the training sets you guys are posting here. It's really inspiring.

I'd love to do 100m reps of fly on 1:40. That would be awesome!

ElaineK
September 15th, 2010, 03:43 PM
Nice pace!

I had another open water swim experience in August that I forgot to post here. I entered a local 3km open water swim and swam it fly.



Now, THAT truly deserves :applaud: :applaud: :applaud: !

thewookiee
October 13th, 2010, 08:55 AM
I have been toying with the idea of swimming more fly. I use to swim fly a lot in hs and some in college.

I got burned out on the stroke in hs because it was forced upon me but after a longtime away from the stroke, I would like to give it another go.

Most of my fly the last few weeks has involved body dolphing, body dolphing working on the the timing of the catch and pull. I don't like one arm drills(even if the lane is crowded) because they put one at an unsual angle for fly.

The problem I am having is with the recovery. I cant seem to find a good point in the stroke to release the water to start the recovery and how the recovery should go.

I see videos of swimmers that look like the recovery is a circular motion from the back to the front, yet read about it being a release to the side and sweeping the arms back to the front.

Fly use to be decent for me but now it a struggle. Any suggestions on how to do the recovery and release point into the recovery?

orca1946
October 14th, 2010, 05:42 PM
To start the S C season, my lower back is sore :cane:from all the drills & kicking. In an odd case , fly feels better than drills ? ! :D

debaru
October 14th, 2010, 06:05 PM
Fly use to be decent for me but now it a struggle. Any suggestions on how to do the recovery and release point into the recovery?

I'm definitely no expert (I learned to swim fly this past June at the ripe old age of 55), but I am taking a stroke class at my local Masters club and last night the entire hour was dedicated to fly.

The way the coach explained it was to use a keyhole-shaped pull after your hands enter the water at shoulder width, and as your hands pass your mid-section (the bottom part of the keyhole), to give a hard push past your hips and make sure your hands are bent at the wrist and pointing backward as you start the recovery (for the hand/wrist position, think of newer jets with the little winglets that point upward on the end of the wings).

I had some pretty good success with this. My biggest issue is getting enough hip rotation and pushing down with my chest to initiate a nice "snap" motion for the kicks. After about 15 yards, my backend starts to sink, which results in my not being able to get my arms completely clear of the water.

Good luck. If you swam it before, I'm sure you'll swim it again. :)

ande
December 1st, 2010, 05:27 AM
thought I'd bump all the lanes to the front page to encourage folks to comment in their lanes

White Lightning
December 1st, 2010, 09:05 AM
I am going to swim my first 50 fly in 26 years on December 4th in Knoxville.:afraid:

I've been splitting 14 high from a push in practice, but I am wondering what I should expect for the 1st and 2nd 25 splits.

How would you handle this race Ande?

fmracing
December 1st, 2010, 09:14 AM
12 1st 25 with a start
14 2nd 25

26.0... a second for every year you were away. Welcome back.


That'd be my goal if I was you anyway. :)

Swimosaur
December 1st, 2010, 10:37 AM
I am going to swim my first 50 fly in 26 years on December 4th in Knoxville.:afraid:

Hey, I will see you there! I might be in the next lane, since I'm also swimming the 50 fly! :duel: Unfortunately it comes right after the 200 back, so I'll be pretty wasted. :whiteflag:

I'm also swimming the 100 fly, for the first time since 1976 (except for the opening legs of a few 400 IMs). I think I've got the first three lengths covered, but I'm intimidated by that last one! The objective is not time (yet) ... it is to finish the race with dignity ... :wine:

ande
December 1st, 2010, 10:39 AM
hey white lighting,

If you're pushing 14's in practice you should be able to go out faster from a dive, FOCUS on the process of swimming a fast 50 fly and don't worry about the outcomes (times or splits) Let your times will fall where they will

have a coach or friend get your 25 split,

have another friend video your race with her Iphone or video recorder


my suggestions to you for your 50 fly are:

1) wear a fast suit 2010 Fina Approved Tech Suit & Aqua V cap


2) SHAVE

3) right before your race, talk with your coach and get psyched to swim fast

4) have a fast start, great dive, skinny streamline, fast SDK (know & do your kick counts) & break out well

4) Swim Fast: move your arms as fast as you can through full stroke cycles

5) hit your turn

5) bring it home

6) Hit your touch

7) keep your head down, breathe as few times as possible
Below are 1, 2 or 3 breath options
a. breathe only at the turn,
b. breathe at the turn & half way back on the 2nd 25
c. breathe at the flags on the first length, the turn, & half way back on the 2nd

Let us know how you swim, good Luck,

Ande


I am going to swim my first 50 fly in 26 years on December 4th in Knoxville.:afraid:

I've been splitting 14 high from a push in practice, but I am wondering what I should expect for the 1st and 2nd 25 splits.

How would you handle this race Ande?

ElaineK
December 1st, 2010, 11:54 AM
Hey, I will see you there! I might be in the next lane, since I'm also swimming the 50 fly! :duel: Unfortunately it comes right after the 200 back, so I'll be pretty wasted. :whiteflag:

I'm also swimming the 100 fly, for the first time since 1976 (except for the opening legs of a few 400 IMs). I think I've got the first three lengths covered, but I'm intimidated by that last one! The objective is not time (yet) ... it is to finish the race with dignity ... :wine:

:chug: Cheers! And, good luck!! :cheerleader:

debaru
December 1st, 2010, 01:25 PM
Every Monday at my Masters group is "Monday IM Madness". Since I am so new to swimming fly, Mondays are always a challenge for me, but after completing a 50 fly in between the 100 IMs, my coach hollered at me "nice fly, Debs". That made my day. :D All of the hard work is starting to pay off.
It's been 5 months since I finally learned (i.e., conquered) swimming fly, and I'm beginning to think I may actaully be able to do a 50 fly in a swim meet this coming April. It won't be a record-breaking time, but just being able to do it is the goal.
Good luck to you White Lightning and Swimosaur in your upcoming races. :cheerleader:

ElaineK
December 1st, 2010, 01:47 PM
And, good luck to you, Deb, with your fly! Congratulations on your success thus far! :applaud: :cheerleader:

White Lightning
December 1st, 2010, 02:16 PM
Thanks everyone.

Ande, thanks for your help.

I will let you know how it goes.

White Lightning
December 5th, 2010, 10:07 AM
I went a 28.54.

Split a 12.5 on the 1st 25, and then died.

I guess not too bad for 26 years off and 2 months of practice--but I have a LONG way to go. My stroke looks really weak and choppy.

The Knoxville pool is perhaps the best facility I have ever seen. The meet director and Knoxville masters were VERY friendly and welcoming. I will keep an eye out for more meets at this venue.

Swimosaur
December 5th, 2010, 10:13 PM
The Knoxville pool is perhaps the best facility I have ever seen. The meet director and Knoxville masters were VERY friendly and welcoming. I will keep an eye out for more meets at this venue.

Thanks for the positive review! The meet was at the Allan Jones Intercollegiate Aquatic Center, a very new (opened in 2008) state-of-the-art indoor 50 meter competition pool with adjacent diving well. The layout is similar to the pool at Auburn, or if you were at nats last spring, Georgia Tech. The photo shows how the pool was set up during the meet. We swam at the far end, close to the diving well, and had the ENTIRE 10 lane, 25 yard section in the foreground available for warmup/cooldown.

The meet director, Jessica Hart, who is also our coach and head of the masters program, did indeed do a spectacular, thorough, and professional job. In the short time she's been here (since last July), she's apparently become quite plugged in with the UT swimming program and had all the logistics with the facility and the officials and the timers and who know what else -- all worked out. Very well done! Jessica is thinking about organizing a masters meet in the spring, but the details are not yet known.

Hilariously, White Lightning and I did indeed draw adjacent lanes in the 50 fly! But if he died on the way back, I died worse! :whiteflag: I'm blaming it on the 200 back ... :blah:

It was a fun meet! Thanks for coming! :chug:

jaadams1
December 28th, 2010, 08:39 PM
:banana:

Now that I'm getting back into good shape my fly is coming back to me (not that it ever left). Last year I had about 1 1/2 hours a week of training and this year about 5+ hours a week. This makes a BIG difference.

I've been doing some amazing fly workouts too, here is one of them:
7 x 300 Fly @ 1:00 rest after each 300
#1-3 - 300 straight (honestly #2 was the hardest part of the whole thing) (I went 3:57, 4:01, 3:58)
#4 - Broken 150s @ :15 rest (1:58, 2:00)
#5 - Broken 100s @ :15 rest (1:14, 1:18, 1:18)
#6 - Broken 50's @ :15 rest (started at :39, got down to :34 on last one)
#7 - Broken 25's @ :15 rest (these ones felt like sprints, I just went fast)

Yes, I'm crazy, but as long as I have the ability to do it, I will. I don't do this kind of stuff day after day, I do need to recover.

I signed up for my hometown meet in about 3 weeks, doing the 50, 100, 200 fly, and capping it off with the 500 Free (as fly of course). Shouldn't be too bad. I've done a few 400s over the past few months in practice.

I just know that the 200 fly will feel like a sprint after a while. :bliss:

TheCaveman
December 29th, 2010, 12:02 AM
I'm rehabbing a torn rotator cuff and I've been staying away from fly altogether. It is, however, my best stroke and a lot of fun (when you're sprinting at least). Has anyone been able to get their fly back after a torn rotator without surgery? I'm trying to stay away from the knife and the six months out of the pool, if possible.

I guess I'm looking for a success story to give me a little hope, if there's one out there.

orca1946
December 29th, 2010, 11:44 AM
800 warm up
16 x 50 IM order kick down & full stroke back
10 x 100 stroke
10 200 ALT free & IM with the last one all fly
cool down

swimdoc
December 30th, 2010, 12:54 AM
I'm rehabbing a torn rotator cuff and I've been staying away from fly altogether. It is, however, my best stroke and a lot of fun (when you're sprinting at least). Has anyone been able to get their fly back after a torn rotator without surgery? I'm trying to stay away from the knife and the six months out of the pool, if possible.

I guess I'm looking for a success story to give me a little hope, if there's one out there.

So far, so good for me. I'm 52, fly is my best stroke, and I had bilateral shoulder pain at Nationals last May. An MRI showed partial tears of the subscapularis (a large tear), supraspinatus, and infraspinatus tendons, and a SLAP II tear in the left shoulder, and partial tears of the supraspinatus and infraspinatus tendons, a SLAP II tear, and bad AC joint arthritis in the right shoulder. I had platelet rich plasma (PRP) injections of each tendon and the labrum in the left shoulder (a single session, under ultrasound guidance) in June, and then had these areas and the AC joint on the right done in July. I primarily kicked most of the summer and did typical rotator cuff physical therapy. I swam fly in a meet at the end of August and started back to usual training in September. I was able to swim 10 events in a 2 day SCM meet (someone dared me to --- I'm usually sane) a few weeks ago, including the 50, 100, and 200 fly.

I never get pain now in my right shoulder, but I still get some muscular pain (trigger points) around the scapula on the left if I try to do too much fly on consecutive days. I'm learning my limits, but considering the extent of my rotator cuff pathology, I'm pretty amazed I've avoided surgery, can train, and swim fly.

There's no great clinical trial evidence yet that PRP works, but I'm pretty certain I wouldn't be as pain free and able to train and compete without having had it done. It's generally not covered by insurance, and I sank about $2500 into having it done, but I'm glad I did.

ande
January 22nd, 2011, 07:11 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSLgDjEaPW

rtodd
January 23rd, 2011, 09:31 AM
If you want to race the 100 fly or 200 fly, then you need to swim that distance in practice. Broken swims are nice, but no substitute for swimming that distance contiuous often in practice.

debaru
January 23rd, 2011, 10:14 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSLgDjEaPW

I'm getting an error message (malformed URL) when I try clicking the link. What's the title of video so I can search it on YouTube?

jaadams1
January 23rd, 2011, 08:26 PM
For all you flyers out there...here is my meet swims from today fly-extravaganza! Crazy/Psycho/!@#$ whatever... I had fun with it.



Sunday, Jan, 23, 2011 Meet Results from Flyapalooza
Posted January 23rd, 2011 at 05:13 PM by jaadams1 (http://www.usms.org/forums/blog.php?u=21038)


My meet felt really good overall. Home meet at Wenatchee, had about 55 people there, but was well spaced out to give everyone plenty of rest (almost) almost...
For being sick most of the week, I really swam quite well.

200 Free Relay here - just swam a 50 (26 sec. or so) moderate speed (relays in our area are of no major importance other than scoring points toward the cumulative LMSC scoring champs for the duration of the season, so our home meet usually gets lots of points.

200 Fly - 2:07.71 = This is the fastest I've gone since college days, and I finally got my age group LMSC record that I've been stalking for a while. The computer had a problem and wasn't able to get the splits posted on results, but I was told I went out in a 1:00 for the first 100. It felt really strong, and after finishing I gave the big fist pump in the air. :) I think I beat all the 200 free entries later in the meet with my time also. :banana::banana::banana:

200 Medley Relay - 50 Fly (25.7)

100 Fly - 57.39 = Also, the fastest I've done in Masters...someone said I was out in a 26.7 at the 50, so I guess it was 30.6 coming home...not bad, wanted to see a 56 though. :)

200 Mixed Medley Relay - 50 Fly (nice and easy 15 meter dolphins off the walls both ways)

50 Fly - 26.19 = This one was tough to get going fast enough over such a short distance. At least I beat the 50 split of my 100 earlier. I also swam it neck and neck with Lincoln Djang (http://www.usms.org/comp/meets/indresults.php?SwimmerID=01MYB&Sex=&StrokeID=0&Distance=&CourseID=0&lowage=&highage=), and it came down to a fingernail at the end where I was 2nd overall, but still a good swim.

100 Free - 56.27 = This was just a throwaway swim for me. It was a few minutes after the 50 fly, and I wasn't cooled down enough, so just swam it easy.

Finally the 500 FLY - 6:11.74 = I was 2:20 at the 200 point. This was a really good swim, much easier than the 100 Free was...YES, I SAID EASIER THAN 100 FREE!!! I know you think I'm crazy, but I just settled into a pace and kept it going. Swam 3 strokes w/ breaths, 1 stroke head down. I only did 2 hand touches on the first 25, and the finish, and this was more so I could come into the walls with a double breath on the turns. BIG help.
I ended up getting 2nd overall in the event to a girl going a 6:10. I was trying to run her down the last 100 since for some reason I was full of energy (not sure from where), but she accelerated also so as to not get beat by someone doing fly!!!

Going to sleep well soon. :bed:

That Guy
January 23rd, 2011, 11:35 PM
Great job James!

That Guy
January 27th, 2011, 11:45 PM
Here's a fly set that I've used different variants of in recent weeks. If you're trying to get in 1000 fly in a workout, this is a good way to do it without allowing your technique to break down. The set by itself is only 900 fly since I get in some fly during warmup and usually some more during an aerobic IM set.

:banana: 4 x 75 fly @ cruising pace on 2:00
:banana: 100 easy
:banana: 6 x 50 fly cruise down, sprint back w/big amplitude on 1:20
:banana: 100 easy
:banana: 12 x 25 fly w/ 12 SDK off every wall, sprint every other 25 on :40
:banana: 100 easy

You can tweak the intervals, the number of reps, and the focus of each set to suit your purposes. This set lets me practice different speeds and practice changing speeds during a swim. There's enough recovery that I can complete this set even when feeling lousy, like I did this morning. :badday:

That Guy
February 9th, 2011, 03:46 PM
Today I had less time than usual to get in a swimming workout. I decided to get in as much fly as I (reasonably) could. So I dropped my usual backstroke, freestyle, and IM work and just did a fly set after warmup. Without all that other stuff to tire me out before the fly set, I figured I would kick things up a notch.

:agree: 3 x 100 fly, sprint the 2nd 50 on 2:30
:agree: 100 easy
:agree: 4 x 75 fly, sprint the 3rd 25 on 2:00
:agree: 100 easy
:agree: 7 x 50 fly, sprint the 2nd 25 on 1:15
:agree: 100 easy

Wow, that seemingly minor change to the set posted above really made a big difference. I found myself loafing the first 25 of each 50. Well... is it possible to loaf above anaerobic threshold? If it is, then I was. :bed:

thewookiee
February 9th, 2011, 03:55 PM
:banana: 6 x 50 fly cruise down, sprint back w/big amplitude on 1:20

:

Why the big amplitude? Seems like too much up and down motion would bad for fly

That Guy
February 9th, 2011, 04:24 PM
Why the big amplitude? Seems like too much up and down motion would bad for fly

"cruise" for me means horizontal fly, breathing every other stroke, trying to conserve energy. "big amplitude" for me means a more vertical fly, big kick, breathing every stroke. The latter is faster for me, but I can't maintain it for a whole 200. I've tried. Twice. Piano, both times. But what I've figured out since then is that I can use both techniques in a 200. I swam a 200 SCM fly a couple weeks ago where I switched from horizontal to vertical at the 150 mark. My splits were something like 34.0, 37.1, 37.9, 36.1. Clearly went out too slow and should have switched earlier than the 150. Last weekend I swam a 200 SCY fly where I switched at the 125. My splits were 30.41, 33.73, 33.46, 33.15. That's better but I was still out too slow. I'm still figuring this out. I've also been messing around in practice with a horizontal fly combined with a big kick. That might be the ultimate winner, but it's too early to say.

jaadams1
February 9th, 2011, 05:14 PM
"cruise" for me means horizontal fly, breathing every other stroke, trying to conserve energy. "big amplitude" for me means a more vertical fly, big kick, breathing every stroke. The latter is faster for me, but I can't maintain it for a whole 200. I've tried. Twice. Piano, both times. But what I've figured out since then is that I can use both techniques in a 200. I swam a 200 SCM fly a couple weeks ago where I switched from horizontal to vertical at the 150 mark. My splits were something like 34.0, 37.1, 37.9, 36.1. Clearly went out too slow and should have switched earlier than the 150. Last weekend I swam a 200 SCY fly where I switched at the 125. My splits were 30.41, 33.73, 33.46, 33.15. That's better but I was still out too slow. I'm still figuring this out. I've also been messing around in practice with a horizontal fly combined with a big kick. That might be the ultimate winner, but it's too early to say.

I'm still all about the "take it out under a minute and see what you're made of" technique. Last time I didn't quite get under a 1:00, but still finished strong at a 2:07. Hopefully I'll look good again at Lake Wash. meet when you can witness it!! :applaud: Breathing on a 3/1 or 2/1 pattern works well for me.

couldbebetterfly
February 27th, 2011, 09:32 PM
I'm bravely jumping back into the butterfly lane to start "Project 200 Fly" This will begin on Tuesday and finish towards the end of June at a LCM meet. I would rather do my first one (in years) SCY, but that's the way it goes.

Now I've said it, there's no going back :afraid:

I had a pretty solid meet the last 2 days and the fly was feeling good (again, at long last!) even on the final length of the random 100IM and lengths 3&4 of the random 200 IM.

Over the next few weeks, I'll try and work up to some of That Guy's fly sets:bow:

That Guy
February 27th, 2011, 11:08 PM
I'm bravely jumping back into the butterfly lane to start "Project 200 Fly" This will begin on Tuesday and finish towards the end of June at a LCM meet. I would rather do my first one (in years) SCY, but that's the way it goes.

Now I've said it, there's no going back :afraid:

I had a pretty solid meet the last 2 days and the fly was feeling good (again, at long last!) even on the final length of the random 100IM and lengths 3&4 of the random 200 IM.

Over the next few weeks, I'll try and work up to some of That Guy's fly sets:bow:

Go Go Go! But work up to it slowly. I hurt myself in 2009 by trying to do too much, and I already had a decent base of fly to work with at that time. One whole training cycle (SCM season) was basically wasted. I've found that the sets I've been posting lately are less likely to cause injury because... uh... I haven't injured myself lately :blush:

couldbebetterfly
February 28th, 2011, 12:46 PM
Go Go Go! But work up to it slowly. I hurt myself in 2009 by trying to do too much, and I already had a decent base of fly to work with at that time. One whole training cycle (SCM season) was basically wasted. I've found that the sets I've been posting lately are less likely to cause injury because... uh... I haven't injured myself lately :blush:

Will do :)
Last year I started back with a good mix of IM work and I have been working on my endurance lately in preparation for the 500 free I swam on Saturday. Since the new year I started incorporating more fly and less IM into my workouts, but still doing mostly free. The idea is to now replace some of that freestyle yardage with fly.

What % of total workout would you recommend working up to on fly (or is the answer 100% :afraid:)? I have been doing typically 4500yds 2 x per week, split approx 800 free warm up, 800-1200 Fly & IM mix, 2000-2400 free, 500 sprint work & cool down.

Thanks:bump:

jaadams1
February 28th, 2011, 12:55 PM
Will do :)
Last year I started back with a good mix of IM work and I have been working on my endurance lately in preparation for the 500 free I swam on Saturday. Since the new year I started incorporating more fly and less IM into my workouts, but still doing mostly free. The idea is to now replace some of that freestyle yardage with fly.

What % of total workout would you recommend working up to on fly (or is the answer 100% :afraid:)? I have been doing typically 4500yds 2 x per week, split approx 800 free warm up, 800-1200 Fly & IM mix, 2000-2400 free, 500 sprint work & cool down.

Thanks:bump:

I race the 200 fly about as often if not more than That Guy, but I don't train with as my % of fly in my day to day workouts. I try to train primarily for mid-distance free, and an IM base for workouts. Some days I may not have any more than 100 yards of fly, other days I may hit 800-1000 (these are with an avg. of 3000-3500 yards per workout).
I also like to go for more endurance type training with my fly rather than all race-paced stuff. I'll do things like 5 x 100 @ 1:30, building from a 100 free on the first, substituting a 25 fly on each consecutive 100 until by the 5th one you're at a 100 fly. Or doing sets like 150s, where you alternate by 50s: fly, free, fly.
Biggest thing is try not to lose control of your stroke. When you feel like you're falling apart...slow down the interval to get more rest. Nothing like trying to swim with an anchor tied around your waist. :afraid:

no200fly
February 28th, 2011, 06:12 PM
Will do :)
The idea is to now replace some of that freestyle yardage with fly.

Thanks:bump:

Following jaadams1 and That Guy's lead, I have started logging fly yards this year. It makes me consciously choose to do fly on some of the stroke sets and the yardage builds up surprisingly fast. I feel a lot stronger in fly sets and I am able to maintain my stroke longer.

That being said, two years ago I started working on my breaststroke because I thought my shoulders would keep me from swimming fly any longer. I have a previous shoulder injury and if I do too many yards or too much fly or back, I lose stabilization in my left rotator cuff and get a lot of pain. So I would suggest that you take it easy as you progress. In his butterfly video, Richard Quick suggests that you only do fly sets where you maintain your form. I think this makes a lot of sense.

Finally, while I think this is a great goal, I think I will be content to never swim another 200 fly.

The Fortress
February 28th, 2011, 06:28 PM
I also like to go for more endurance type training with my fly rather than all race-paced stuff.

Biggest thing is try not to lose control of your stroke. When you feel like you're falling apart...slow down the interval to get more rest. Nothing like trying to swim with an anchor tied around your waist. :afraid:

I take the exact opposite approach of James: I do only race pace fly or perfect technique fly and not that much of it. You can train free for fly to a large extent. But then, like no200fly, I'm not entering the 200 fly. Just contemplating doing 100% of a workout fly, Louise, makes me shudder. Even if you have no shoulder problems, I would still advise building up fly endurance very very gradually. And swimming sloppy fly is just not worth it, as other have pointed out. Maybe instead of focusing so much on full stroke fly yardage, you could also include some dolphin kicking. After all, this is a leg driven stroke.

orca1946
February 28th, 2011, 06:39 PM
!. butter fly
2. butter struggle
3. butter ugly


the 3 stages of fly for most swimmers!!!!!!!!

couldbebetterfly
February 28th, 2011, 11:07 PM
I take the exact opposite approach of James: I do only race pace fly or perfect technique fly and not that much of it. You can train free for fly to a large extent. But then, like no200fly, I'm not entering the 200 fly. Just contemplating doing 100% of a workout fly, Louise, makes me shudder. Even if you have no shoulder problems, I would still advise building up fly endurance very very gradually. And swimming sloppy fly is just not worth it, as other have pointed out. Maybe instead of focusing so much on full stroke fly yardage, you could also include some dolphin kicking. After all, this is a leg driven stroke.

My race pace for a 200 fly = easy pace fly

Way back I ended up doing mixed fly/free to train for the 200 and ended up so shattered I lost my stroke - a bit like this really:


!. butter fly
2. butter struggle
3. butter ugly


the 3 stages of fly for most swimmers!!!!!!!!

Now I have the luxury of setting my own workout and usually having my own lane, so no excuses to skimp on fly. Also plenty of scope for rest as needed, and to set longer intervals (not trying to keep up with the freestylers) plus the ability to do kick and drills correctly at a steady pace. Do not worry people - I have every intention of building up gradually!

I had a couple of compliments on my fly this weekend, which gave me the confidence that I can do this again - and stroked my ego nicely:)

That Guy
February 28th, 2011, 11:49 PM
What % of total workout would you recommend working up to on fly (or is the answer 100% :afraid:)? I have been doing typically 4500yds 2 x per week, split approx 800 free warm up, 800-1200 Fly & IM mix, 2000-2400 free, 500 sprint work & cool down.

Thanks:bump:

I would recommend no change to your warmup or your cooldown. Slowly increase the amount of fly that you do in the other sections of your workout. As far as ratio goes, today was 40% fly for me (2500 yards, 1000 fly). For the last 52 weeks overall, I'm at 26.6% fly (yes I have all kinds of nerdy stats). So if you do approach 100%, tell me what it's like because I've never done anything like that :anim_coffee:

couldbebetterfly
March 1st, 2011, 02:12 PM
I would recommend no change to your warmup or your cooldown. Slowly increase the amount of fly that you do in the other sections of your workout.

Good, good, I wasn't planning to change those drastically, just shift some of that free out of the middle into fly and/or IM :)


As far as ratio goes, today was 40% fly for me (2500 yards, 1000 fly). For the last 52 weeks overall, I'm at 26.6% fly (yes I have all kinds of nerdy stats). So if you do approach 100%, tell me what it's like because I've never done anything like that:anim_coffee:
Today I did 1400 fly, mostly drill and kick, out of 4800, so thats about 30% and feel fine! Over the past 6 weeks I have been doing around 6-900 fly drill/kick work per session already. I dropped a stroke per length last week too :bliss:

I started out with 50s fly today and the plan is to up that distance by 25yd every 2 weeks or so over the next 3 months reaching 200yds just in time for the outdoor 25m pool to open, whereby I'll be doing 200m. I'll likely drop the number of reps though. 100% fly workout doesn't actually appeal. :D

That Guy
March 1st, 2011, 03:27 PM
Today I did 1400 fly, mostly drill and kick, out of 4800, so thats about 30% and feel fine! Over the past 6 weeks I have been doing around 6-900 fly drill/kick work per session already. I dropped a stroke per length last week too :bliss:
Great job! When I said "slowly increase" I meant week-by-week, month-by-month, or even year-by-year. But it does sound like you've been building a base. I guess we need to wait and see if you post "owwwwwwwwwww" tomorrow.

chowmi
March 1st, 2011, 06:40 PM
I take the exact opposite approach of James: I do only race pace fly or perfect technique fly and not that much of it. You can train free for fly to a large extent. But then, like no200fly, I'm not entering the 200 fly. Just contemplating doing 100% of a workout fly, Louise, makes me shudder. Even if you have no shoulder problems, I would still advise building up fly endurance very very gradually. And swimming sloppy fly is just not worth it, as other have pointed out. Maybe instead of focusing so much on full stroke fly yardage, you could also include some dolphin kicking. After all, this is a leg driven stroke.


Yet another example of why me & Fort should be workout partners. I too do not believe in anything but fast fly - either all out sprint or strong 50's. My fav set is 100's - 50 free/50 fly on a long rest interval, easy swim in between. SCM; start at holding 1:15 and work down to 1:10 or faster (ie, a strong free time). So you aren't cruising the first 50; you still have to go out sub 35 in order to bring it home for that 50 fly.

Another fav set is the broken 100's
100 straight (no more than 10 sec over your 100 time)
50 10 sec 50
50 10 sec 25 5 sec 25
4 x 25 5 sec subtract 15 you should be at or under your 100 time

And for you die hards that like fly fly and more fly
and actual annual challenge set we did once or twice a year in college
13 x 200's
fast on 1, 4, 7, 10 and 13 at race speed if possible, but no holding back on #1.
easy on 2x200's in between
interval is total elapsed time of 2:30, 3, 3:30
i held 2:15's on the 5 x 200 flys. college time was a 2:06. hey people! here's an aggie joke: how do you make a 200 flyer? take the 1500 swimmer and the 50 swimmer and have them train the 200 fly! no kidding!
i would probably modify this set to 50's or do 10 x rounds, do the four fast as a 100/75/50/25 fly at true race speed, and easy 100's in between.

I would focus more on drills, especially kicking drills, to create more lift and a balanced kick (ie, kick up as well as down. no one has trouble with the down. it's the up that usually isn't so good). You get the most bang for the buck here - so another way of agreeing with Fort - in other words, you don't have to get ANY stronger in the arms, but if are overall stronger in your legs, better lift, then you are able to hold the water better out in front and thus have a stronger, more efficient and effective pull.

jaadams1
March 1st, 2011, 08:28 PM
I see that many think that because I don't type "race pace" for my fly training, that I must be swimming slow relaxed fly. This is not the case however. I do swim longer distances of fly, or mixed with fly & free, but I do swim them at a hard pace, with a shorter amount of rest, much like training distance freestyle. I may not be swimming at 95-100%, but who really can do that in practice?? I do swim fast fly too, don't think I don't...I just don't put that much emphasis on it until after the BEEP at the meets. I've had no problem with my speed in fly either, actually I can go too fast in my fly if I'm not careful. In sets, I do repeated 200s on 2:45/3:00 holding 2:25s or under at a nice controlled pace, which I don't consider race pace. :2cents:

Speedo
March 1st, 2011, 08:42 PM
Yet another example of why me & Fort should be workout partners. I too do not believe in anything but fast fly - either all out sprint or strong 50's. My fav set is 100's - 50 free/50 fly on a long rest interval, easy swim in between. SCM; start at holding 1:15 and work down to 1:10 or faster (ie, a strong free time). So you aren't cruising the first 50; you still have to go out sub 35 in order to bring it home for that 50 fly.

Another fav set is the broken 100's
100 straight (no more than 10 sec over your 100 time)
50 10 sec 50
50 10 sec 25 5 sec 25
4 x 25 5 sec subtract 15 you should be at or under your 100 time

And for you die hards that like fly fly and more fly
and actual annual challenge set we did once or twice a year in college
13 x 200's
fast on 1, 4, 7, 10 and 13 at race speed if possible, but no holding back on #1.
easy on 2x200's in between
interval is total elapsed time of 2:30, 3, 3:30
i held 2:15's on the 5 x 200 flys. college time was a 2:06. hey people! here's an aggie joke: how do you make a 200 flyer? take the 1500 swimmer and the 50 swimmer and have them train the 200 fly! no kidding!
i would probably modify this set to 50's or do 10 x rounds, do the four fast as a 100/75/50/25 fly at true race speed, and easy 100's in between.

I would focus more on drills, especially kicking drills, to create more lift and a balanced kick (ie, kick up as well as down. no one has trouble with the down. it's the up that usually isn't so good). You get the most bang for the buck here - so another way of agreeing with Fort - in other words, you don't have to get ANY stronger in the arms, but if are overall stronger in your legs, better lift, then you are able to hold the water better out in front and thus have a stronger, more efficient and effective pull.
Oooooo....thanks for the ideas. I'd like to focus on the 100 fly one of these seasons, and this is good stuff.

The Fortress
March 1st, 2011, 08:48 PM
Oooooo....thanks for the ideas. I'd like to focus on the 100 fly one of these seasons, and this is good stuff.

I love chowmi's broken 100s as well. For more 100 fly advice, check this out:

Training for the 100 fly? - U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums


Disagree, James, I swim 95-100% all the time in practice.

jaadams1
March 1st, 2011, 08:52 PM
Disagree, James, I swim 95-100% all the time in practice.

That's fine...you can have your opinion too. You're a sprinter, I'm not. We're both happy. :applaud: Happy flyin' :bliss:

The Fortress
March 1st, 2011, 08:53 PM
That's fine...you can have your opinion too. You're a sprinter, I'm not. We're both happy. :applaud: Happy flyin' :bliss:

Just sayin' it can be done in practice. Even mid D types do all out AFAP swims. Check out Patrick's or Chris' blog or Tall Paul's workouts.

aquageek
March 1st, 2011, 08:59 PM
Just sayin' it can be done in practice. Even mid D types do all out AFAP swims. Check out Patrick's or Chris' blog or Tall Paul's workouts.

Yep, totally agree. AFAP swims are a must for any type of swimmer.

jaadams1
March 1st, 2011, 09:03 PM
Just sayin' it can be done in practice. Even mid D types do all out AFAP swims. Check out Patrick's or Chris' blog or Tall Paul's workouts.

I do them too...I just can't do it that often with the amount of lane crowding and different ability levels in my team practices...and I hate having to go out and pay $$$ to go swim in the hot YMCA pool just to have a lane by myself. Our "team" practices or more of just a free for all, and I try to do what I can before others bombard my lane and start warming up themselves without and regard as to what I may have been doing already. Say what you want about that part...it's not going to change anything on how the others are. Our workout group has about 80 in it, but only about 10-15 of us actually compete, and of those that compete I don't have anyone of similar speed to train with either, so I just make do the best I can.

philoswimmer
March 1st, 2011, 09:14 PM
I would focus more on drills, especially kicking drills, to create more lift and a balanced kick (ie, kick up as well as down. no one has trouble with the down. it's the up that usually isn't so good). You get the most bang for the buck here - so another way of agreeing with Fort - in other words, you don't have to get ANY stronger in the arms, but if are overall stronger in your legs, better lift, then you are able to hold the water better out in front and thus have a stronger, more efficient and effective pull.

To work on the "kick up," do you think it's helpful to kick while on your back (so that the "kick up" is a "kick down")? Do you think in general dolphin kicking on your back is a good way to train for fly kicking? I ask because a lot of people on my team kick on their back for fly kick, but it always seems a bit strange to me. So, I'm wondering now if there is a good reason for it, other than wanting more access to oxygen.

The Fortress
March 1st, 2011, 09:22 PM
To work on the "kick up," do you think it's helpful to kick while on your back (so that the "kick up" is a "kick down")? Do you think in general dolphin kicking on your back is a good way to train for fly kicking? I ask because a lot of people on my team kick on their back for fly kick, but it always seems a bit strange to me. So, I'm wondering now if there is a good reason for it, other than wanting more access to oxygen.

I'll be curious to see what chowmi says. But, for me, to train for fly, you should dolphin kick primarily on your stomach. I dolphin kick a ton on my back, but it doesn't seem to completely fix my up kick in fly, which is probably a weak spot for me as well. To work on this, I'll do shooters where I dolphin kick on my belly, back, left side, right side and do twirling shooters where I change position every two kicks. This helps you balance and kick in every direction in the water. I also find a monofin helps with kicking correctly.

James,

That sucks. It's hard to do fly in an overrun pool. If you can occasionally get a solo lane in the Y to do AFAP stuff, it would be worth it.

jaadams1
March 1st, 2011, 09:33 PM
James,

That sucks. It's hard to do fly in an overrun pool. If you can occasionally get a solo lane in the Y to do AFAP stuff, it would be worth it.


Don't worry about it that much...I don't. When the others get in with me and do freestyle sets, I'll just swim with them and either do fly or IM to stay on the same interval rather than just running in to lap traffic which isn't fun either. The best part of my workouts is our cost to swim for the Masters group. The High School doesn't charge us even :2cents: to swim there during the school year, which is a big plus. So I deal with it, and seem to do pretty well.

That Guy
March 1st, 2011, 09:55 PM
There are some benefits to swimming fly in a crowded pool.

You don't get to choose your intervals and you've got to go on short rest. You have a window of opportunity between the other swimmers and you have to grab it, even if you're still out of breath from the previous swim.
To avoid collisions and/or get to clear water, you might have to take extra SDK's off the wall. For example, taking an unplanned 12 SDK's on the last 25 of a 75.
If the other swimmers in the pool are generating lots of waves, you're occasionally going to get a faceful of water instead of a breath. That can and will happen in competition, so practice it!
You don't need to worry about your times when practicing fly like this. Crowding adds at least 2 seconds per 50 fly in my experience. Just get the yards in and call it good.
I swam a set of 50 flys in a situation like this yesterday. Short rest, long underwaters, choking on waves, slow times... I was dog tired by the end of it, but I got it done. :bed:

Paul Smith
March 1st, 2011, 10:14 PM
To work on the "kick up," do you think it's helpful to kick while on your back (so that the "kick up" is a "kick down")? Do you think in general dolphin kicking on your back is a good way to train for fly kicking? I ask because a lot of people on my team kick on their back for fly kick, but it always seems a bit strange to me. So, I'm wondering now if there is a good reason for it, other than wanting more access to oxygen.

Yes...the up kick cycle in fly requires awareness and strength of your hamstrings and kicking on your back helps this...IF its not "lazy" kicking.

I've always believed that fly is best trained at race pace. So short distance (25's and 50's really) at high speed and with fins helps reinforce proper body position and the kick cycle being discussed. I haven't swam a 100 fly in workout in 30 years....

chowmi
March 1st, 2011, 11:19 PM
To work on the "kick up," do you think it's helpful to kick while on your back (so that the "kick up" is a "kick down")? Do you think in general dolphin kicking on your back is a good way to train for fly kicking? I ask because a lot of people on my team kick on their back for fly kick, but it always seems a bit strange to me. So, I'm wondering now if there is a good reason for it, other than wanting more access to oxygen.

I agree that kicking on your back can help with the up kick. It is also a practical issue - I typically do either a reverse catch up drill on my tummy (free drill) or I kick on my back with fins during pull sets. I can do the set less one 50 per 200 (so a 150 to their 200) and it's a good interval for me without disrupting the lane or getting lapped.

I am not a very strong fly kicker. Solid free kicker, but never have been for fly. But there is my own answer - lowest hanging fruit!! Pick something really do-able and don't worry that it's too little or different. Here's what I did last Monday on my own!
400 warm up
200 easy kick with board
100 kick without board
8 x 25 with shoes, snorkel, board in front and/or no board 4 free 2 fly 2 on back
8 x 25 fast feet freestyle board in front - fast as you can go (timewise) and faster feet than you can count (ie, imagine watching yourself kick. if you can see your feet, you are moving them too slow) true 50 race pace feet.
8 x 25 with fins free and fly underwater no breath
8 x 25 with fins back and fly underwater at least to the opposite flag
3 x 150 100 kick on all sides/50 free easy swim
50 easy
Passed on my 4 x vertical kicks due to slightly overtired core from shoes on back today. Better to pass on it than throw out my back.
Lots of rest; this took me 1 hour 10 minutes.

So you see, I don't do much! But I do this type of kicking EVERY WEEK, ONCE a week. It's sustainable.

Not being a gifted fly kicker, the 2 things I work on most is to get lift and to not initiate the kick from the knees when I am tired.

You can do it! Just set some sets down on paper, and go do them! Yeah!

jaadams1
March 1st, 2011, 11:29 PM
8 x 25 with shoes!

I like that. I'm going to get some of my old worn out tennis shoes and give it a shot one day. :)

couldbebetterfly
March 2nd, 2011, 09:27 AM
Great job! When I said "slowly increase" I meant week-by-week, month-by-month, or even year-by-year. But it does sound like you've been building a base. I guess we need to wait and see if you post "owwwwwwwwwww" tomorrow.

owwwwwwwwwww

Actually its not too bad, I can feel it in the backs of my hamstrings and upper back, but its not painful, just there! Hopefully some gentle "Mom & Tots Yoga" will stretch me out today ready for more fly tomorrow.

White Lightning
March 2nd, 2011, 10:29 AM
Great posts!

Any other advice on developing the up kick? I think this is probably the best kept secret in fly. Perhaps we need an 'Up Kick' thread.

Chris Stevenson
March 2nd, 2011, 10:31 AM
I'm going to be a contrary voice in two ways.

(1) I hate kicking fly on my back (at least, on the surface). Maybe it is okay as a drill to work on the up-kick. The problem is that kicking fly on the surface robs you of much of your power in the down-kick (er, that would be the up-kick if you are on your back). You are good at making a lot of waves but not it isn't translating as effectively to forward propulsion.

To do a good dolphin kick, lead with (and focus on) what your hips are doing rather than your legs. They will follow the hips.

You want to work on your up-beat but don't want to worry about lack of oxygen? Do dolphin with a kickboard but be sure to keep your feet below the water: they should never break the surface. Concentrate on working the kick both ways. You will get an excellent workout for your legs and core and also be working on a good kick.

Nowadays coaches often dismiss this approach. "Body position all wrong" and such. But how many races are there where you do dolphin kick on your back on the surface? None.

By the way, in college I kicked exclusively with a kickboard, usually dolphin kick. Nowadays I do maybe 30-40% of my kicking with a board. But I was a much faster kicker in college than I am now. Obviously I was younger, but I think the "kickboard-only" approach didn't hurt as much as many would think.

(2) As long as you can keep your form (and that's a big thing), do as much butterfly as you want. There is no other stroke IMO that gives you as much of a workout in a given amount of time. (Well, maybe breaststroke but that's not a real stroke.)

People talk about how difficult it is to swim fly in a crowded lane. True to a point, but backstroke and breaststroke are even harder: in back you can't see when you are running over people, and unless you are very fast breaststroker (never something I've been accused of) then you'll slow people down. So if conditions are too crowded for me to get in a good freestyle workout, I'll switch to fly and be careful not to hit anyone.

ande
March 2nd, 2011, 11:49 AM
it is not difficult to swim fly in a crowded lane
make fists and swing your arms hard and fast on your recovery
after a few hits you're likely to teach the crowd to stay out of your way

but I really look for gaps when I can do a 25 or a 50

If I feel like I'm about to smack someone,
I take a 1 arm stroke then resume with 2 when the lane is clear

I don't swim much fly in practice
I do a lot of freestyle and no board dolphin kicking.

couldbebetterfly
March 2nd, 2011, 02:42 PM
I'm going to be a contrary voice in two ways.

(1) I hate kicking fly on my back (at least, on the surface). Maybe it is okay as a drill to work on the up-kick. The problem is that kicking fly on the surface robs you of much of your power in the down-kick (er, that would be the up-kick if you are on your back). You are good at making a lot of waves but not it isn't translating as effectively to forward propulsion.

To do a good dolphin kick, lead with (and focus on) what your hips are doing rather than your legs. They will follow the hips.

You want to work on your up-beat but don't want to worry about lack of oxygen? Do dolphin with a kickboard but be sure to keep your feet below the water: they should never break the surface. Concentrate on working the kick both ways. You will get an excellent workout for your legs and core and also be working on a good kick.

Nowadays coaches often dismiss this approach. "Body position all wrong" and such. But how many races are there where you do dolphin kick on your back on the surface? None.

By the way, in college I kicked exclusively with a kickboard, usually dolphin kick. Nowadays I do maybe 30-40% of my kicking with a board. But I was a much faster kicker in college than I am now. Obviously I was younger, but I think the "kickboard-only" approach didn't hurt as much as many would think.

(2) As long as you can keep your form (and that's a big thing), do as much butterfly as you want. There is no other stroke IMO that gives you as much of a workout in a given amount of time. (Well, maybe breaststroke but that's not a real stroke.)



Thanks for the input - I am a rubbish kicker on all strokes and only since joining the forums here have been informed that fly is very kick dominated! I actually find it more core-dominated in that if I get a good undulation, the hips in the right place and then the legs follow naturally. Or perhaps I am harking back to learning it in the 1980s?

Either way I never use a kickboard on fly and do most of my kicking on my side. I find with the board I get a lot of pressure on my lower back.

I'm working on the principle right now that if you're training for the 200 free, you do lots of free sets of different lengths at different speeds, while still keeping a good stroke. So if I want to do a 200 fly, then surely a similar approach would work:dunno: OK so I'm not jumping into doing 4 x 200 fly descending next week, which would be very easy to do on freestyle, but I've swum many more yards free than I have fly in my lifetime. I guess my fly just needs to catch up!

ElaineK
March 2nd, 2011, 08:04 PM
[QUOTE=ande;237710]it is not difficult to swim fly in a crowded lane
make fists and swing your arms hard and fast on your recovery
after a few hits you're likely to teach the crowd to stay out of your way
[QUOTE]

:lmao:

As for you, Chris, your comment about breaststroke deserves a :mooning: and a :thhbbb:. :D

Cheers!
:chug:

philoswimmer
March 2nd, 2011, 11:06 PM
(1) I hate kicking fly on my back (at least, on the surface). Maybe it is okay as a drill to work on the up-kick. The problem is that kicking fly on the surface robs you of much of your power in the down-kick (er, that would be the up-kick if you are on your back). You are good at making a lot of waves but not it isn't translating as effectively to forward propulsion.

To do a good dolphin kick, lead with (and focus on) what your hips are doing rather than your legs. They will follow the hips.

You want to work on your up-beat but don't want to worry about lack of oxygen? Do dolphin with a kickboard but be sure to keep your feet below the water: they should never break the surface. Concentrate on working the kick both ways. You will get an excellent workout for your legs and core and also be working on a good kick.

Nowadays coaches often dismiss this approach. "Body position all wrong" and such. But how many races are there where you do dolphin kick on your back on the surface? None.

By the way, in college I kicked exclusively with a kickboard, usually dolphin kick. Nowadays I do maybe 30-40% of my kicking with a board. But I was a much faster kicker in college than I am now. Obviously I was younger, but I think the "kickboard-only" approach didn't hurt as much as many would think.


Making a lot of waves without translating into propulsion -- that's exactly how I feel when I dolphin kick on my back. I think I'm going to try the underwater kick with a board and see if that feels more effective.

Thanks to everyone for their comments on this question -- gives me lots of things to try and think about.

That Guy
March 9th, 2011, 11:07 PM
Fun with YouTubeDoubler!


:lmao:KNELSON & THAT GUY :lmao:versus :lmao:MICHAEL PHELPS' WORLD RECORD!!! :lmao:
a 200 fly for the ages (or maybe the aged)

http://www.youtubedoubler.com/?video1=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3 DcyDvwOseQ0w&start1=22&video2=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D 8abWK-MDTZ4&start2=5

jaadams1
March 9th, 2011, 11:22 PM
Fun with YouTubeDoubler!


:lmao:KNELSON & THAT GUY :lmao:versus :lmao:MICHAEL PHELPS' WORLD RECORD!!! :lmao:
a 200 fly for the ages (or maybe the aged)

http://www.youtubedoubler.com/?video1=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3 DcyDvwOseQ0w&start1=22&video2=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D 8abWK-MDTZ4&start2=5

If the race was you to the 150, and Phelps to the 200 point, I think he still touched you out by a hair!!! :bolt:

That Guy
March 10th, 2011, 12:20 AM
If the race was you to the 150, and Phelps to the 200 point, I think he still touched you out by a hair!!! :bolt:

good thing it wasn't short course!

jaadams1
March 10th, 2011, 12:31 AM
good thing it wasn't short course!


It's tough to get lapped in the LCM 200 Fly, but SCY or SCM...I'm pretty sure I'd be trying to ride the wave as he came by me!! :bliss:

That Guy
March 10th, 2011, 01:22 AM
Yeah, I guess I would too.

jaadams1
March 13th, 2011, 04:03 PM
Is it strange to be able to swim a somewhat relaxed fast 100 fly and come within 4-5 seconds of your all out sprint 100 free time??? Maybe it's just us flyers that can do this. I'm finding as every meet goes by, that I think fly will be my true calling, especially as long as the gridge with That Guy is out there!! :duel:

That Guy
March 13th, 2011, 04:27 PM
Is it strange to be able to swim a somewhat relaxed fast 100 fly and come within 4-5 seconds of your all out sprint 100 free time??? Maybe it's just us flyers that can do this. I'm finding as every meet goes by, that I think fly will be my true calling, especially as long as the gridge with That Guy is out there!! :duel:

Good to see you applying that term correctly. :agree:

At an LCM meet in 2009, my 100 free was actually slower than my 100 fly. The 100 free was only a few minutes after the 200 fly... it was dumb of me to enter anything that soon after a 200... that's my story and I'm sticking to it. :angel:

tjrpatt
March 13th, 2011, 08:06 PM
Is it strange to be able to swim a somewhat relaxed fast 100 fly and come within 4-5 seconds of your all out sprint 100 free time??? Maybe it's just us flyers that can do this. I'm finding as every meet goes by, that I think fly will be my true calling, especially as long as the gridge with That Guy is out there!! :duel:


It is probably a flyer thing. My best 200 free is a 1:51 while my best 200 yard fly is a 1:56.

chowmi
March 14th, 2011, 04:07 PM
Here are some more fly swim sets:

The Broken 100 Fly
Main element is
100 fly straight (within 10 seconds of goal meet time)
50 fly 10 sec 50 fly
50 fly 10 sec 25 fly 5 sec 25 fly
4 x 25 fly 5 secs on your count - you should be under your meet time subtract 15
interval is at least 4 minutes or more. easy swim in between. works really well with a partner or with 2 -3 max in lane and alternate groups of 2 going on the 2 or 2 1/2 minutes. then you can cheer for each other!

Build a 200 IM!
I love this set but we rarely do it. You can pick an interval, but I always liked the "key man" interval - like going on the 3 person plus 10, etc.
25 fly
50 fy
50 fly 25 back
50 fly 50 back
50 fly 50 back 25 breast and so on.
Wimpys can do it build it backwards from the freestyle and add onto the front.

The Moving 50 fly!
Sets of 100's with a 50 free/50 fly
You pick the intensity - either lots of rest & recovery or build a bit more endurance.
50 fly 50 free
25 free 50 fly 25 free
50 free 50 fly
25 fly 50 free 25 fly
I would do it as 2 min per 100; 2 x 50's recovery on 1 minute in between each. Bank the rest (so you are really leaving on the 4 minutes) and the key is to get as close to your 100 free practice time on each one.

Challenge 100 fly set!
5 x 100's
25 fly 75 free
50 fly 50 free
75 fly 25 free
100 easy
100 all out fly!
(Our coach's idea)

Add 25's fly!
12 x 25
4 x 25 easy free
1 fast fly
1 easy free repeat 4 times
30 sec interval

12 x 25's
4 x 25 easy free
2 fast fly 1 easy free
2 fast fly 1 easy freee
2 fast fly
35 sec interval

12 x 25's
3 fast 1 easy on the 40 interval

I don't know why we did the 4 x 25's easy. I think it was because there was a challenge conditioning set in between each, and I sat those out.


Was it Speedo that mentioned training for the 100 fly? My other two favorite sets for that are:

When everyone else is doing 200's pull, I do:
fast 75 fly
recovery 100 free
on the same interval, so about 1 fast 75 per 6 minutes. Goal time is right at where you would need to be at the 75 in race. Swim it as agressively as a 50 fly.

Here's one more:
100's free/fly, again a good rest interval, and really push the first 50 free and bring it home the 2nd 50 fly. I prefer to do back-half 50 flys because you don't have any trouble taking out the first 50 - it's bringing it home where I need the work!

Sneak 25 flys
As a practical matter, you can't always modify based on the # of people in a lane and the intervals. So another is move down a lane or two and do last 25 blast flys. Swim the first 75 strong to moderate, depending on where you place in the lane. Rest 5 seconds at the 75 and then absolutely blast that last 25 fly.

And finally,

The Get out 100 Fly!

No description necessary!

arthur
March 14th, 2011, 05:52 PM
Here are some more fly swim sets:

Thanks for all the great fly sets! It is good timing as I have been thinking of racing 100m fly again.