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ande
April 25th, 2010, 11:26 AM
IMers, We're Jacks & Jills of all trades
Fly back breast free
We gotta have speed but we gotta last to finish fast.
It takes strategy & conditioning.
We train equal amounts of all 4 or have a fatal flaw.
We try to make our worst stroke not so bad.
It's worked well for Ryan Michael Eric, Ariana Kirsty & Stephony

What did you do in practice today?


the breastroke lane


The Middle Distance Lane


The Backstroke Lane


The Butterfly Lane


The SDK Lane


The Taper Lane


The Distance Lane


The IM Lane


The Sprint Free Lane


The Pool Deck

Couroboros
April 25th, 2010, 11:53 AM
On Friday, the one day of my meet I had no events, I swam a 400 IM for the heck of it in the warm-up/down area.

It was interesting! I didn't get my time or anything like that, but I didn't feel too bad doing it.

I think a lot of it depends on not making the rookie mistake of going out too fast on the fly.

swimmj
April 25th, 2010, 12:36 PM
working on even splitting a 200 IM - so yesterday featured

6 times thru
200 IM 1-3, broken :10 at the 100, 4-6 broken :10 at the 50
100 easy

I'm trying to not use my legs much in the first half, so that I'm stronger for the 2nd half. Was able to neg split or even split all but 1 of these.

Jeff Commings
April 26th, 2010, 05:57 PM
Long live the 100 IM!

It's the reason I got into Masters.

Ahelee Sue Osborn
April 26th, 2010, 06:10 PM
TUESDAY & THURSDAY workouts are devoted to stroke specialty and IM.

DEVOTED!

Plenty of other time to swim freestyle and ridiculous yardage to make the triathletes and grinder freestylers happy.

Coaches need to schedule stroke sets - and present stroke clinics so their athletes know how to swim strokes correctly.

There is a reason so many age-group development coaches train kids to swim IM events - it builds overall fitness and athleticism.

For masters, that IM training philosophy helps swimmers stay young, flexible, open minded, and less set in their ways like little old men and women!

Project 85% of readers will disagree with me, but I still think I'm pretty close to right! :)

ElaineK
April 26th, 2010, 07:08 PM
TUESDAY & THURSDAY workouts are devoted to stroke specialty and IM.

DEVOTED!

Plenty of other time to swim freestyle and ridiculous yardage to make the triathletes and grinder freestylers happy.

Coaches need to schedule stroke sets - and present stroke clinics so their athletes know how to swim strokes correctly.

There is a reason so many age-group development coaches train kids to swim IM events - it builds overall fitness and athleticism.

For masters, that IM training philosophy helps swimmers stay young, flexible, open minded, and less set in their ways like little old men and women!

Project 85% of readers will disagree with me, but I still think I'm pretty close to right! :)

I'm in the projected 15% who AGREE with you! :agree: I'm a new Masters swimmer (joined in February) and only focusing on my best stroke (breaststroke) this year in competition, but I'm really looking forward to adding IM to the mix in the future. I am working up to it slowly, because I've had back and shoulder (thoracic outlet syndrome) surgeries in between my high school swimming days and my Masters swimming, 31 years later. But, I've been testing my body by increasing my yardage and speed gradually to the point where I'm up to 4-5 days/wk, 2500 - 3500 yds per workout. And, if I had the time, I know I could do more. On the other days, I dryland train, and that is going well, too. So far, so good! So, I'm heading in the IM direction. BUT, I want to get my breaststroke technique DOWN and continue to improve my times, before I alter my focus to improving other strokes. My ultimate goal is to get the technique DOWN on all of them! If I do that, speed will improve. :D

Jimbosback
April 27th, 2010, 12:46 PM
I have a long term goal of breaking a minute in the 100y IM. It was always my favorite event. I do what I call "IM Sprint sets" which are simply 25s, on the minute, in IM order, all out until I can't take it anymore. The goal for now is to be able to repeat 15s every length.

knelson
April 27th, 2010, 01:45 PM
I think a lot of it depends on not making the rookie mistake of going out too fast on the fly.

Nope. You've got to take out the fly fast...and then manage to survive for the next 300! :)

Karen Duggan
April 27th, 2010, 01:56 PM
Ahelee you are spot on!
At our workouts, we IM-types pretty much have to fill in stroke when the interval allows. Unless you're really fast, and I'm not, I can't do 10 x 50 stroke on :35! So I have to wait until the 40 or 45 to throw in some stroke.
It's a bummer : (

ande
May 6th, 2010, 11:00 PM
added these links to all the first posts in each lane
wonder which lane is going to get the most posts & views
right now the breastrokers are killing all the other lanes



the breastroke lane


The Middle Distance Lane


The Backstroke Lane


The Butterfly Lane


The SDK Lane


The Taper Lane


The Distance Lane


The IM Lane


The Sprint Free Lane


The Pool Deck

That Guy
May 7th, 2010, 12:06 AM
When I do IM sets, it's usually one of the following:

400-300-200-100 on 6:00-4:30-3:00-1:30
5x200 on 3:00
10x100 on 1:30

I haven't done an IM set in a while. So tomorrow I'm going to do the 4-3-2-1 set. Followed by a fly set. Gotta keep the universe in balance.

Ahelee Sue Osborn
May 7th, 2010, 11:57 AM
Headed to Mission Viejo for Regionals today.
Really mixed bag of training going into the meet. And emotionally drained after one of our favorite swimmers suffered a massive heart attack in my early morning workout yesterday. Still critical.

But here comes that 400IM on day one of the meet.
What event provides a full workout in itself like the 4IM?

My swimmer, Tom, thinks its bad ass that I swim it and I agree.
I sure don't feel bad ass today. But then, the 4IM is nothing like the battle he is facing right now.
So here goes...

ande
May 7th, 2010, 12:06 PM
good luck ahelee,

Easy speed, breathe & save your legs on FL & Bk
stay relaxed
be smooth
work the breast & free

That Guy
May 7th, 2010, 12:53 PM
When I do IM sets, it's usually one of the following:

400-300-200-100 on 6:00-4:30-3:00-1:30
5x200 on 3:00
10x100 on 1:30

I haven't done an IM set in a while. So tomorrow I'm going to do the 4-3-2-1 set. Followed by a fly set. Gotta keep the universe in balance.

About halfway to the gym I remembered that I signed myself up for this set. I went after the 400 a bit too aggressively, so I felt wasted the rest of the workout, but it came out okay. 5:11-3:54-2:36-1:16. I still did the fly set afterward, and then weights, and then abdominals, and then biked to work. So I'm tired but in a good way. I like Ahelee's suggestion of designating one day per week for an IM main set.

swimmj
May 7th, 2010, 02:56 PM
Headed to Mission Viejo for Regionals today.
Really mixed bag of training going into the meet. And emotionally drained after one of our favorite swimmers suffered a massive heart attack in my early morning workout yesterday. Still critical.

But here comes that 400IM on day one of the meet.
What event provides a full workout in itself like the 4IM?

My swimmer, Tom, thinks its bad ass that I swim it and I agree.
I sure don't feel bad ass today. But then, the 4IM is nothing like the battle he is facing right now.
So here goes...

Oh, Ahelee, so sorry to hear that one of your swimmers had a massive heart attack. How scary for everyone and emotionally draining. You are bad ass for swimming the 400 IM - remember to save your legs for the 2nd half of the IM - use mostly arms for the fly and back and remember to breath. Lots. I'll be thinking of you and Tom and wishing you both well.

We also have 1 day a week for IM's and 1 day a week designated stroke day. We also have a mid distance free day and a sprint day and a recovery/technique day. Something for everybody. I love swimming IM's - it's just very fun to work on all strokes. And the distance free helps me build endurance for the 200 and 400 IM, so I try to make every practice.

That Guy
May 7th, 2010, 04:54 PM
And emotionally drained after one of our favorite swimmers suffered a massive heart attack in my early morning workout yesterday. Still critical.

Whoa, for some reason I completely missed this part of the post earlier. Since no one yelled at me, I will now yell at myself.

:bitching: TG, no one cares about your crap while there is a swimmer in the ICU! :bitching:

Get well soon.

That Guy
May 14th, 2010, 12:58 PM
First thing's first: Ahelee, is Tom doing better?

Fridays are becoming IM Day. This week I did my least favorite of the three IM sets that I posted earlier in the thread: 5x200 IM on 3:00. This set just hurts, and it takes great concentration not to lose technique. I went 2:35, 2:36, 2:35, 2:36, 2:34. Not my fastest work but I held on and finished well.

A funny thing happened during this set: turning from fly to back on the 4th 200, I saw that the Pink Thong Exhibitionist was on the pool deck. Then the woman that I was splitting a lane with hopped out. Aw crap. (To complement his repulsive costume, the PTE swims wretched breaststroke exclusively, always with large hand paddles. Dangerous.) Sure enough, as I finished the 4th 200, I could see that the PTE was making his way toward my lane. I started the 5th 200 and sure enough, there he was in the water as I finished the fly. (I was still splitting the lane, not swimming down the center.) Then on my second length of backstroke, I saw that he moved over one to split a lane with my friend Kyle instead of splitting with me. BAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA the PTE is afraid of me!!!! :bliss:

That Guy
August 8th, 2010, 12:52 AM
I AM REVIVING THIS THREAD
Why? Because today I taught myself the backstroke to breaststroke flip turn. I've never been able to do it with any consistency before, but now I've got it. Here's what I did. The pool was nearly empty so I moved to the center of the pool and did 10 x 25 back-to-breast, starting and finishing in the middle. The first two sucked because I was trying to do something like this YouTube- ‪Eric Shanteau Back - Breast Transition Turn‬‎ or this YouTube- ‪Adam Mania's Back to Breast turn‬‎ and I just can't seem to get that right. So then for #3 I decided to try this instead (I've seen this technique but I had never tried it before): YouTube- ‪Tay Back To Brerast‬‎ I cheated a little bit and looked at my hand before it touched the wall, but I completely nailed the turn. There's no rotating or twisting, just touch the wall and flip straight over. Then I nailed the turn 7 more times, at different speeds and off either hand. For the rest of the workout I started working these turns into my warmdown swims (e.g. alternating backstroke and freestyle each 25, doing this flip turn on each back-to-free transition) and eventually got to where I didn't need to look at the wall prior to flipping. That is important since by putting my head underwater prior to touching the wall, I'd be risking a DQ for submerging past 15 meters. If an idiot like me can learn this, then anyone can! WOO HOO!!! THERE'S A HALF SECOND I'M NOT GIVING UP ANYMORE!!! :bliss:

tjrpatt
August 8th, 2010, 09:38 AM
I AM REVIVING THIS THREAD
Why? Because today I taught myself the backstroke to breaststroke flip turn. I've never been able to do it with any consistency before, but now I've got it. Here's what I did. The pool was nearly empty so I moved to the center of the pool and did 10 x 25 back-to-breast, starting and finishing in the middle. The first two sucked because I was trying to do something like this YouTube- ‪Eric Shanteau Back - Breast Transition Turn‬‎ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSKt6S4jLLA) or this YouTube- ‪Adam Mania's Back to Breast turn‬‎ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfRn9LMd44s) and I just can't seem to get that right. So then for #3 I decided to try this instead (I've seen this technique but I had never tried it before): YouTube- ‪Tay Back To Brerast‬‎ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoOJWnOj8S4) I cheated a little bit and looked at my hand before it touched the wall, but I completely nailed the turn. There's no rotating or twisting, just touch the wall and flip straight over. Then I nailed the turn 7 more times, at different speeds and off either hand. For the rest of the workout I started working these turns into my warmdown swims (e.g. alternating backstroke and freestyle each 25, doing this flip turn on each back-to-free transition) and eventually got to where I didn't need to look at the wall prior to flipping. That is important since by putting my head underwater prior to touching the wall, I'd be risking a DQ for submerging past 15 meters. If an idiot like me can learn this, then anyone can! WOO HOO!!! THERE'S A HALF SECOND I'M NOT GIVING UP ANYMORE!!! :bliss:

I do the bucket turn alot because I need the air. But, I would like to master Shanteau's transition. When I watch Nationals or Grand Prix events, I am stunned how many swimmers do the open turns. I sometimes do the open turns but that is when I am so zapped after the backstroke portion of the 400 IM. Shanteau's version is probably the one to shot for.

That Guy
August 8th, 2010, 10:41 AM
I do the bucket turn alot because I need the air. But, I would like to master Shanteau's transition. When I watch Nationals or Grand Prix events, I am stunned how many swimmers do the open turns. I sometimes do the open turns but that is when I am so zapped after the backstroke portion of the 400 IM. Shanteau's version is probably the one to shot for.

Shanteau's turn is great but I'm going to stick with the turn that I can actually perform. :) But I do need to recalibrate how long I can hold my breaststroke pullouts, especially in the 400. My IM sets in the coming weeks should be interesting. More importantly: will they be faster?

Edit: Hey I found another one: YouTube- ‪turn backstroke-breaststroke / virata dorso-rana‬‎

DPC
August 8th, 2010, 11:03 AM
I AM REVIVING THIS THREAD

Why? Because today I taught myself the backstroke to breaststroke flip turn. I've never been able to do it with any consistency before, but now I've got it. Here's what I did. The pool was nearly empty so I moved to the center of the pool and did 10 x 25 back-to-breast, starting and finishing in the middle. The first two sucked because I was trying to do something like this YouTube- ‪Eric Shanteau Back - Breast Transition Turn‬‎ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSKt6S4jLLA) or this YouTube- ‪Adam Mania's Back to Breast turn‬‎ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfRn9LMd44s) and I just can't seem to get that right. So then for #3 I decided to try this instead (I've seen this technique but I had never tried it before): YouTube- ‪Tay Back To Brerast‬‎ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoOJWnOj8S4) I cheated a little bit and looked at my hand before it touched the wall, but I completely nailed the turn. There's no rotating or twisting, just touch the wall and flip straight over. Then I nailed the turn 7 more times, at different speeds and off either hand. For the rest of the workout I started working these turns into my warmdown swims (e.g. alternating backstroke and freestyle each 25, doing this flip turn on each back-to-free transition) and eventually got to where I didn't need to look at the wall prior to flipping. That is important since by putting my head underwater prior to touching the wall, I'd be risking a DQ for submerging past 15 meters. If an idiot like me can learn this, then anyone can! WOO HOO!!! THERE'S A HALF SECOND I'M NOT GIVING UP ANYMORE!!! :bliss:

Congrats and great vids - I've been trying to do the same thing on the BK/BR transition, but all the shots I've seen are like Shanteau's and I can never get the sequence right. Its like trying to do something while looking in a mirror, I always end up twisting the wrong way and head off into the lines. The sort of modified flip has been easier to do but I end up going too deep on the pull out and run out of air or it takes a long time to do so I lose time (it seems that way). Looks like perserverance wins again.

That Guy
August 8th, 2010, 11:13 AM
Congrats and great vids - I've been trying to do the same thing on the BK/BR transition, but all the shots I've seen are like Shanteau's and I can never get the sequence right. Its like trying to do something while looking in a mirror, I always end up twisting the wrong way and head off into the lines. The sort of modified flip has been easier to do but I end up going too deep on the pull out and run out of air or it takes a long time to do so I lose time (it seems that way). Looks like perserverance wins again.

Thanks! I did notice that on some of my pushoffs, I was deeper than I expected to be. I do generally push off with a downward trajectory... but I can imagine in the 400 IM scenario that I could end up running out of air.

ElaineK
August 8th, 2010, 01:48 PM
I do the bucket turn alot because I need the air.

I'm a breaststroker who is training in IM for my first pentathlon. I hire a coach (very part-time) to help me with my strokes, starts and turns. During our last session, he coached me on IM transitions; particularly the back-to-breast transition. He is teaching me open turns for everything, because I have Meniere's and get too dizzy if I do any more than a few flip turns in a short period of time. (I figured that out when I made myself "seasick" practicing flip turns. I didn't have Meniere's when I used to compete in high school swimming...)

Learning open turns and IM transitions isn't too difficult, if you already have a solid breaststroke turn. I've been working hard on it, so it has really helped my other open turns.

couldbebetterfly
August 8th, 2010, 11:00 PM
I AM REVIVING THIS THREAD

Why? Because today I taught myself the backstroke to breaststroke flip turn. I've never been able to do it with any consistency before, but now I've got it. Here's what I did. The pool was nearly empty so I moved to the center of the pool and did 10 x 25 back-to-breast, starting and finishing in the middle. The first two sucked because I was trying to do something like this YouTube- ‪Eric Shanteau Back - Breast Transition Turn‬‎ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSKt6S4jLLA) or this YouTube- ‪Adam Mania's Back to Breast turn‬‎ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfRn9LMd44s) and I just can't seem to get that right. So then for #3 I decided to try this instead (I've seen this technique but I had never tried it before): YouTube- ‪Tay Back To Brerast‬‎ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoOJWnOj8S4) I cheated a little bit and looked at my hand before it touched the wall, but I completely nailed the turn. There's no rotating or twisting, just touch the wall and flip straight over. Then I nailed the turn 7 more times, at different speeds and off either hand. For the rest of the workout I started working these turns into my warmdown swims (e.g. alternating backstroke and freestyle each 25, doing this flip turn on each back-to-free transition) and eventually got to where I didn't need to look at the wall prior to flipping. That is important since by putting my head underwater prior to touching the wall, I'd be risking a DQ for submerging past 15 meters. If an idiot like me can learn this, then anyone can! WOO HOO!!! THERE'S A HALF SECOND I'M NOT GIVING UP ANYMORE!!! :bliss:

Thankyou - I was looking for the IM lane last week and couldn't find it :afraid:

I can do a flip - a bit like the 3rd vid - but only in practice. I did one in competition many years ago and twisted my shoulder somehow, still it all straightened out after a couple of strokes breast, but have never managed it at speed since. I tend to get too close to the wall on the backstroke finish, so have no room to flip backwards. Probably not helped by practising in 25m pool and competing in 25yd pool this summer.

I also tend to push off deep, probably because after a back flip my toes hit the wall angle downwards.

My nemesis is the backstroke turn - not an issue for the 100IM, or 200LCM, but I always turn over too late. So.....anyone got tips for a rubbish backstroker on how to get more confident on those turns? I have a (very) long term goal of swimming a 400IM in competition.

That Guy
August 9th, 2010, 12:55 PM
Take two strokes inside the flags, and then turn over.

Jimbosback
August 9th, 2010, 03:10 PM
Thankyou - I was looking for the IM lane last week and couldn't find it :afraid:


I also tend to push off deep, probably because after a back flip my toes hit the wall angle downwards.

I overcome this by touching low on the wall (reach down) which levels me off better.

couldbebetterfly
August 9th, 2010, 03:55 PM
Take two strokes inside the flags, and then turn over.

Will bear that in mind, although I then end up so far away that I'm needing to do a couple of freestyle strokes to get me there:blush:

Its just practice makes perfect really isn't it? I hate practising backstroke :afraid:

That Guy
August 9th, 2010, 05:14 PM
Its just practice makes perfect really isn't it?

Yep, that is why I'm going to make sure I do plenty of back-to-breast flip turns in every practice. Eventually it will be automatic without thinking about it, but that's not the case yet.

knelson
August 9th, 2010, 05:20 PM
eventually got to where I didn't need to look at the wall prior to flipping. That is important since by putting my head underwater prior to touching the wall, I'd be risking a DQ for submerging past 15 meters.

Yes, and in my opinion the girl in the video should be DQed if she turns like that in a race. It sure looks to me like she's completely submierged before her hand hits the wall.

That Guy
August 9th, 2010, 05:48 PM
Yes, and in my opinion the girl in the video should be DQed if she turns like that in a race. It sure looks to me like she's completely submierged before her hand hits the wall.

Yeah, I like this video (which I didn't find until after my first post on this topic) much better, since it's much cleaner technique: YouTube- ‪turn backstroke-breaststroke / virata dorso-rana‬‎ I don't know what I look like from the pool deck, but that video shows exactly what I'm trying to do.

rtodd
August 9th, 2010, 05:57 PM
A classic.

http://www.floswimming.org/videos/swimming_race/play/6146-all-star-100-im

pwolf66
August 10th, 2010, 08:27 AM
That is important since by putting my head underwater prior to touching the wall, I'd be risking a DQ for submerging past 15 meters.
Actually, you wouldn't risk it as the rule is that prior to reaching the 15m mark some part of the swimmer's head must break the surface of the water, after that point, some part of the swimmer (note: doesn't say head) must break the surface of the water at all times with the exception of at the finish where the swimmer may be submerged. Now it's the 'at the finish' part that's the rub. As an official that is ruled to be the time in which you shift your focus to judging the swimmers touch and in doing so can no longer be in a good position to view the entire body of the swimmer.

And in IM, then transition from one stroke to another is judged using the finishing rule of the ending stroke and the starting rule (sans dive of course) of beginning stroke.

I guess that was a long winded way of saying 'no, having your head underwater at the transition from back to breast should not be cause for disqualification'

pwolf66
August 10th, 2010, 08:30 AM
Yes, and in my opinion the girl in the video should be DQed if she turns like that in a race. It sure looks to me like she's completely submierged before her hand hits the wall.

It all depends on if this part of the finish. If it is, then it's legal. See my answer to TG for more info.

knelson
August 10th, 2010, 10:11 AM
I stand corrected. You are right Paul.

That Guy
August 10th, 2010, 01:02 PM
Actually, you wouldn't risk it as the rule is that prior to reaching the 15m mark some part of the swimmer's head must break the surface of the water, after that point, some part of the swimmer (note: doesn't say head) must break the surface of the water at all times with the exception of at the finish where the swimmer may be submerged. Now it's the 'at the finish' part that's the rub. As an official that is ruled to be the time in which you shift your focus to judging the swimmers touch and in doing so can no longer be in a good position to view the entire body of the swimmer.

And in IM, then transition from one stroke to another is judged using the finishing rule of the ending stroke and the starting rule (sans dive of course) of beginning stroke.

I guess that was a long winded way of saying 'no, having your head underwater at the transition from back to breast should not be cause for disqualification'

I watched most of the US Nationals last week and I saw some DQ's in the backstroke events where the announcer said the swimmer "submerged prior to the finish." However, I didn't notice any DQ's like that in the IM events. Either way, mastering the turn enough that I don't have to look at the wall is still a good thing. :chug:

Today I incorporated the turn into an IM set - 5x100 IM on 1:30. Not a super-hard set but hard enough that I was performing the turn while winded. It turns out that the point in my stroke cycle where I reach for the wall is also the point where I exhale! (I breathe every stroke in backstroke. It's pretty much subconscious though, so this was a surprise.) I was awkwardly gasping for air just before flipping. So I need to work on that. Some sort of mental cue to breathe differently inside the flags, maybe.

ande
August 24th, 2010, 10:46 AM
Since we're at the beginning of a new season
I thought I'd bump all the lanes to see which one is winning

bzaks1424
August 24th, 2010, 01:44 PM
I will be swimming my first IM ever this year. Doing the 100 IM during the Sink Or Swim Classic on October 24th.
Libertyville Sink or Swim Classic meet, 24 Oct 2010 - U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums

My goal is to be able to survive and do the 400 IM at Nationals in April. I'm not concerned about times with this one. I just want to learn it right then speed up from there.

Ahelee Sue Osborn
August 27th, 2010, 07:44 PM
Just when you thought the 400 IMers were the craziest swimmers next to the 200 Flyers...

Northern California is proud of their IM Swimmers.
But especially proud of building their Medley Relays.


YouTube- The Golden Gate Individual Medley

pwb
August 27th, 2010, 07:56 PM
Just when you thought the 400 IMers were the craziest swimmers next to the 200 Flyers...

Northern California is proud of their IM Swimmers.
But especially proud of building their Medley Relays.


YouTube- The Golden Gate Individual Medley (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJPW14VMg-c)Completely whacked out! Crazy. I'm impressed, but this is one of those things I'm sure I'll never aspire to do.

tjrpatt
August 27th, 2010, 08:37 PM
Just when you thought the 400 IMers were the craziest swimmers next to the 200 Flyers...

Northern California is proud of their IM Swimmers.
But especially proud of building their Medley Relays.


YouTube- The Golden Gate Individual Medley (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJPW14VMg-c)

looks like fun. Of course, the water must be insanely cold. But, once you get the fly done, the rest is a piece of cake considering you can complete the fly. At least, with the kayak, you can be somewhat coordinated on the backstroke. Otherwise, you might somehow swim to the Pacific!

Ahelee Sue Osborn
August 27th, 2010, 09:36 PM
looks like fun. Of course, the water must be insanely cold.
At least, with the kayak, you can be somewhat coordinated on the backstroke. Otherwise, you might somehow swim to the Pacific!

Probably 55-63 degrees.

The idea of following the Golden Gate Bridge like a beam on the ceiling in backstroke sounds cool to me!

Loud foghorns eh?

ElaineK
August 27th, 2010, 10:02 PM
Just when you thought the 400 IMers were the craziest swimmers next to the 200 Flyers...

Northern California is proud of their IM Swimmers.
But especially proud of building their Medley Relays.


YouTube- The Golden Gate Individual Medley (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJPW14VMg-c)

:afraid:

ande
December 1st, 2010, 05:29 AM
thought I'd bump all the lanes to the front page to encourage folks to comment in their lanes

Karl_S
February 2nd, 2011, 07:51 AM
For proper pacing of a 400 IM, how should the 100 splits compare to the second half of the respective 200 stroke events? For example, should the back leg of the IM be slower than the second half of a properly-split 200 back? Ditto for the other strokes?

That Guy
February 2nd, 2011, 10:05 AM
For proper pacing of a 400 IM, how should the 100 splits compare to the second half of the respective 200 stroke events? For example, should the back leg of the IM be slower than the second half of a properly-split 200 back? Ditto for the other strokes?

I swim the fly leg of my 400 IM the same as the first 100 of my 200 fly. :agree: My back and breast splits are a bit slower than any parts of those respective 200's. :bed: (Maybe they shouldn't be, but they are.) :violin: Then I split the last 100 basically the same as the last 100 of a 400/500 freestyle. :applaud:

ande
February 2nd, 2011, 11:16 AM
here's how I swim 400 IM's
FL Easy speed, 3 or 4 SDKs, barely kick, breathe every stroke, stay smooth, go 5 or 6 seconds slower than best 100 FL

BK easy speed, light kick, 3 or 4 SDKs, breathe often, take a couple extra breaths before the BK to BR turn, probably 3 or 4 seconds slower than my 2nd 100 of well split 200 bk, you need to feel pretty good at the 200 instead of being done and dying and yet having 200 left

BK to BR turn
flip it fast, nail it, push off hard, streamline skinny, glide far
many swimmers do slow open turns and sneak extra breaths

BR push off hard, glide far, do complete pull outs,
go fast but be smooth and powerful, put more of a streamlined pause after each kick

FR work it, I used to do it, 50 2 beat kick, 50 6 beat kick, but I now do and recommend a 6 beat kick the whole way. Just go as fast as you can and bring it home strong.


younger skinny well conditioned swimmers swim a lot harder on their 400 IM's they do more SDKs off each wall (like 6 to 8)



For proper pacing of a 400 IM, how should the 100 splits compare to the second half of the respective 200 stroke events? For example, should the back leg of the IM be slower than the second half of a properly-split 200 back? Ditto for the other strokes?

jaadams1
February 2nd, 2011, 07:57 PM
here's how I swim 400 IM's
FL Easy speed, 3 or 4 SDKs, barely kick, breathe every stroke, stay smooth, go 5 or 6 seconds slower than best 100 FL

Obviously he hasn't seen my IM's then... :afraid: I shoot for about 2 seconds slower than my best, but that's just me, and because my IM's are so Fly/Free dependent I have to swim it that way... I wish I could make my backstroke as good as it used to be, I know, practice practice practice... :bolt:

Thrashing Slug
February 3rd, 2011, 02:36 PM
Here's my strategy for the 100 IM, which is the only one I've raced so far:

Fly: Nail the dive, 2 or 3 SDKs, swim easy speed & low amplitude. Try to remember to breathe. Damn, it's over already?

Back: Slip into a time warp and watch as the ceiling moves sloooowlllly by... Kick fast and small, stay compact on the turn.

Breast: Brief interlude into a happy, peaceful underwater place. Take the first pull and then drop the hammer. Fast hands, strong kick. Use stroke count as an indication of how well I'm doing. 7 or less = good.

Free: Tight streamline, 1 or 2 ineffectual dolphin kicks, surface, and enter the pain cave. Kick like the devil, but keep amplitude low. Stay as smooth as possible, don't breathe inside the flags.

couldbebetterfly
February 3rd, 2011, 03:47 PM
Here's my strategy for the 100 IM, which is the only one I've raced so far:

Fly: Nail the dive, 2 or 3 SDKs, swim easy speed & low amplitude. Try to remember to breathe. Damn, it's over already?

Back: Slip into a time warp and watch as the ceiling moves sloooowlllly by... Kick fast and small, stay compact on the turn.

Breast: Brief interlude into a happy, peaceful underwater place. Take the first pull and then drop the hammer. Fast hands, strong kick. Use stroke count as an indication of how well I'm doing. 7 or less = good.

Free: Tight streamline, 1 or 2 ineffectual dolphin kicks, surface, and enter the pain cave. Kick like the devil, but keep amplitude low. Stay as smooth as possible, don't breathe inside the flags.

Hey - that's just like mine, except 8 breaststrokes is good for me :)

Jimbosback
February 3rd, 2011, 10:41 PM
Here's my strategy for the 100 IM, which is the only one I've raced so far:

Fly: Nail the dive, 2 or 3 SDKs, swim easy speed & low amplitude. Try to remember to breathe. Damn, it's over already?

Back: Slip into a time warp and watch as the ceiling moves sloooowlllly by... Kick fast and small, stay compact on the turn.

Breast: Brief interlude into a happy, peaceful underwater place. Take the first pull and then drop the hammer. Fast hands, strong kick. Use stroke count as an indication of how well I'm doing. 7 or less = good.

Free: Tight streamline, 1 or 2 ineffectual dolphin kicks, surface, and enter the pain cave. Kick like the devil, but keep amplitude low. Stay as smooth as possible, don't breathe inside the flags.

Sounds exactly like mine. I have to remind myself to breathe in backstroke. Counting strokes helps make it to by quicker. I have learned I am faster turning over my BR a little faster in the IM, so 8 is about right for me too. I'm swimming one next weekend -- hoping to go under 1:10.

ElaineK
February 4th, 2011, 04:24 PM
Hey - that's just like mine, except 8 breaststrokes is good for me :)

Hey 'Fly, just curious... What's your 50yd. breaststroke time keeping it at 8 strokes? I'm trying to get my stroke count down, but my time is slower when I do. Riding the glide and keeping as streamline as possible has been something I've been working on, but it has been a battle to lower my time with my lower stroke count. :bitching:

couldbebetterfly
February 5th, 2011, 05:52 PM
Hey 'Fly, just curious... What's your 50yd. breaststroke time keeping it at 8 strokes? I'm trying to get my stroke count down, but my time is slower when I do. Riding the glide and keeping as streamline as possible has been something I've been working on, but it has been a battle to lower my time with my lower stroke count. :bitching:


Give me three weeks and I'll let you know!

I swam a 50 in the summer 39.63, but have no idea of stroke count. And the last 100 IM I swam got 9 strokes in :afraid:, but it wasn't a great swim.

I have no idea what state I'll be in when I do this 50 br though as its part of the "mega-sprint decathlon with tech suits". I'll be trying to keep the stroke-count down though - and unlike you, Elaine I'm hardly training any breast (or back for that matter) as I'm working towards my 500 free in the serious meet the day before!

I find br so hard to get the balance right between getting a good catch and pull back or slowing down too much on the glide - guess that's why I'm not a breaststroker :bolt:

shadowxvi
May 19th, 2011, 09:25 AM
Looking to train for the 400 IM and looking for more workout ideas. Only seen a couple posted in the thread so far. Also training for 200 fly as well but my thoughts are that training IM and not just mainly fly will still help me accomplish the 200 fly correct?

pwb
May 19th, 2011, 10:27 AM
Looking to train for the 400 IM and looking for more workout ideas. Only seen a couple posted in the thread so far. Also training for 200 fly as well but my thoughts are that training IM and not just mainly fly will still help me accomplish the 200 fly correct?I'll shamelessly plug my blog as I'm focused on training for those two events plus the 400/500 free: http://forums.usms.org/blog.php?u=5013. If you ignore my experiment with sprinting (Fall '10, part of spring '11), I think you'll find a fair number of good workouts. Here are a few recent set ideas:

Set #1: (my coach Laura Winslow built this), intervals here in SCY: 8 x "400": 2 rounds of

1 x 400: free on 5:20
4 x 100: on 1:30

Rd #1 traveling 50 fly
Rd #2 build a 100 fly (e.g., 25 fly/75 free, 50 fly / 50 free, etc.)

1 x 400: IM on 6:00, 2nd rd faster
4 x 100: on 1:05, free


Set #2: Props to Chris Stevenson's coach Mark Kutz for this painful gem ... intervals shown here were doing this in SCM


3 x 500: on 7:00, descend free
3 x 50: on 1:20, easy
3 x 400: on 6:0, IM descend

had no clue what I'd go
HURT like hell going 5:46, 5:38, 5:29

3 x 50: on 1:00 easy

Set #3: I built this one specifically for the 200 fly and 400 free focus, again intervals from SCM: 4 rounds of

4 x 100: free, aiming to hold aerobic pace from 3 x 300 test set (e.g., 1:10 for me)

Rd 1 on 1:25
Rd 2 on 1:20
Rd 3 on 1:15
Rd 4 on 1:10

7 x 50:

#1 easy on 1:00
#2 to #6: fly

aiming to hold target pace for last 150 of 200 fly (about 34)
on 0:55, 0:50, 0:45, 0:40, 0:35 for 1st two rounds
on 1:00, 0:55, 0:50, 0:45, 0:40 for last two rounds

#7 easy on about 1:15 (whatever got me to a reasonable clock starting point for next round of frees)



I'd also recommend Chris Stevenson's blog (http://forums.usms.org/blog.php?u=6428), but caution you that you'll need to do significant modifications as his workouts are generally animal hard & FAST!

gdanner
May 19th, 2011, 11:51 AM
Looking to train for the 400 IM and looking for more workout ideas. Only seen a couple posted in the thread so far. Also training for 200 fly as well but my thoughts are that training IM and not just mainly fly will still help me accomplish the 200 fly correct?

My two favorite main sets for 4im are these:



All IM:

4 x 100 on 1:30
3 x 200 on 2:25
2 x 300 on 3:20
1 x 400 on 5:00
1 x 300 on 3:20
1 x 200 on 2:25
1 x 100 on 1:30

Change the intervals so they start out easy and get to the point where they are rough for the 300's (no more than 5-10 sec rest), but then you get sufficient rest on the 400.
and the other:



2000 straight:


400 free cruise
400 im hard
300 fr 50 easy / 250 cruise
300 im hard
200 fr 50 easy / 150 cruise
200 im hard
100 fr 50 easy / 50 cruise
100 im hard

100 easy on 3:00

10 x 100 on 1:10 im (pick an interval you can hold but only get 2-5 sec rest)

2trax4me
May 19th, 2011, 01:48 PM
Set #1: (my coach Laura Winslow built this), intervals here in SCY: 8 x "400": 2 rounds of

1 x 400: free on 5:20
4 x 100: on 1:30

Rd #1 traveling 50 fly
Rd #2 build a 100 fly (e.g., 25 fly/75 free, 50 fly / 50 free, etc.)


1 x 400: IM on 6:00, 2nd rd faster
4 x 100: on 1:05, free




what is a traveling 50 fly? I am guessing

1 - 50 fly/50 free
2 - 25 free/50fly/25 free
3 - 50 free/50 fly
4 - ?

shadowxvi
May 19th, 2011, 03:20 PM
what is a traveling 50 fly? I am guessing

1 - 50 fly/50 free
2 - 25 free/50fly/25 free
3 - 50 free/50 fly
4 - ?

Yep that's exactly it.

shadowxvi
May 19th, 2011, 03:26 PM
1 - 50 fly/50 free
2 - 25 free/50fly/25 free
3 - 50 free/50 fly
4 - think its 25 fly/50 free/25 fly

pwb
May 19th, 2011, 04:00 PM
1 - 50 fly/50 free
2 - 25 free/50fly/25 free
3 - 50 free/50 fly
4 - think its 25 fly/50 free/25 flyThat's it!

orca1946
May 20th, 2011, 12:32 AM
I have done flips into the back to breast but, I need more air to get further out on the push off!

Karl_S
September 16th, 2011, 09:07 PM
I've a question for the experienced 400 IMers.

In prearing for the 200 bk (and and very recently also the 200 br) I have found that swimming sets of 4x50 with about 8-10s between the 50s is a valuable training tool. It allows me to practice at or near race pace, yet the rest is sufficiently brief that it "feels like" a full 200, as opposed to swimming shorter distances on longer intervals. I also find that the add-up time for a strong effort on (4x50 with 8-10s rest) is a pretty good indicator of what I can expect for a full 200 in a race.

I'm looking for a similar training tool for the 400 IM. For 4x100 IMO with N seconds rest between 100s, what value of N gives an add-up close to race time? Is this even a reasonable approach? It removes all of the change-stroke turns. Would it would be better to break at 50, 150 and 350? That seems cumbersome.

Speedo
September 16th, 2011, 09:22 PM
I've a question for the experienced 400 IMers.

In prearing for the 200 bk (and and very recently also the 200 br) I have found that swimming sets of 4x50 with about 8-10s between the 50s is a valuable training tool. It allows me to practice at or near race pace, yet the rest is sufficiently brief that it "feels like" a full 200, as opposed to swimming shorter distances on longer intervals. I also find that the add-up time for a strong effort on (4x50 with 8-10s rest) is a pretty good indicator of what I can expect for a full 200 in a race.

I'm looking for a similar training tool for the 400 IM. For 4x100 IMO with N seconds rest between 100s, what value of N gives an add-up close to race time? Is this even a reasonable approach? It removes all of the change-stroke turns. Would it would be better to break at 50, 150 and 350? That seems cumbersome.You're trying to get in the range of your actual 200 back time (minus rest) with that set, and are attempting to design the same kind of set for the 400IM? I'm not an IM'er, but if this is so and you want to keep the transitions, maybe reps of 400IMs- break at the 50, and every 100 after that for 5-10sec? That would be of the same design as your 200 back set.

jaadams1
September 16th, 2011, 11:14 PM
I've a question for the experienced 400 IMers.

In prearing for the 200 bk (and and very recently also the 200 br) I have found that swimming sets of 4x50 with about 8-10s between the 50s is a valuable training tool. It allows me to practice at or near race pace, yet the rest is sufficiently brief that it "feels like" a full 200, as opposed to swimming shorter distances on longer intervals. I also find that the add-up time for a strong effort on (4x50 with 8-10s rest) is a pretty good indicator of what I can expect for a full 200 in a race.

I'm looking for a similar training tool for the 400 IM. For 4x100 IMO with N seconds rest between 100s, what value of N gives an add-up close to race time? Is this even a reasonable approach? It removes all of the change-stroke turns. Would it would be better to break at 50, 150 and 350? That seems cumbersome.

I addition to IM work, begin training for middle distance events like the 500. Lots of 100s, 150s, 200s, etc. repeats on minimal rest just to build your cardio. The 400 IM can be very taxing on a person in the race, even someone who is a great IMer. I don't know how the broken 100s IMOrder would add up as a comparison to a race pace 400 IM. I pretty much train free and fly, and just attack the 400 IM when the time comes. :D

Karl_S
September 17th, 2011, 02:00 PM
I addition to IM work, begin training for middle distance events like the 500. Lots of 100s, 150s, 200s, etc. repeats on minimal rest just to build your cardio.
Check. Such sets have been the meat and potatoes of my training for years.

What I am looking for is a way to get the "feel" of race pace. I've found this to be really helpful for the stroke 200s. I need to know what the right stroke rate feels like that will produce my best time. I need to know just how much pain I can expect to experience at each stage of the race and still not get hit by a falling piano.

This brings up a question about pacing. I often see in these forums the advise to "loaf the fly" in the 400 IM. (I think ande can be credited with this suggestion. ande maybe you can comment?) I've done quite a few timed 400 IMs in practice over the past several months and it was a surprisise to me that taking out the fly quite hard produces the best overall time, so now I wonder what "loaf" means. Maybe I just answered my own question... maybe ande's "loafing" is my "quite hard"... no, correct that, ande's loafing is my "blazing freaking fastest hardest I ever dreamed of swimming":)

Allen Stark
September 17th, 2011, 02:41 PM
I think I'd work out the rest time by doing the 400 IM broken by 50s first.I'd figure what I want my split for each 50 to be and then allow enough rest to achieve them.Then keep reducing the rest until you get to 15 sec between 50s and then I think you are good to go.

jaadams1
September 17th, 2011, 04:35 PM
I often see in these forums the advise to "loaf the fly" in the 400 IM

Yes, good advice, but advice that I don't follow very well at all. :) My fly is my core of the IM, and I have to take full advantage of it. Even if I back off a little, my backstroke still sucks, and my breaststroke is decent enough after the backstroke recovery. So I just 90-100% my fly in all IMs. Not the advice for most swimmers out there, but works for me.

orca1946
September 17th, 2011, 05:00 PM
BR is my down fall, you must be born with a good kick!

couldbebetterfly
September 17th, 2011, 11:05 PM
Yes, good advice, but advice that I don't follow very well at all. :) My fly is my core of the IM, and I have to take full advantage of it. Even if I back off a little, my backstroke still sucks, and my breaststroke is decent enough after the backstroke recovery. So I just 90-100% my fly in all IMs. Not the advice for most swimmers out there, but works for me.

I have to side with James on this one......the 100IM is all out anyway, the 200 is all out on fly and hang in there for the rest, but the 400 has yet to be raced. I'm working on the principle of needing to improve my back & breast so they don't totally fall apart having just swum a hard 100 fly.

However, Karl - you're a backstroker right? So I would think that even after going out hard on fly, you'd manage a decent backstroke leg and maybe even recover a little in time for the breast? I have heard that the back and breast should be swum at 200 pace, but not being a back/breaststroker I have no idea what that is!

jaadams1
September 18th, 2011, 12:10 AM
I'll be swimming two 400 IMs coming up here soon...one SCM next week in Mesa, and another SCY in a USA-S meet with the kids in Ellensburg, WA. I don't know which one will be harder...probably the SCY one trying to stay up with the youngings. I'll try my best to sprint the fly like I described above. The backstroke is the recovery stroke anyway...why else would anyone else float on their back? :)

AnnG
September 18th, 2011, 12:22 AM
I also swim 400 IM and I like to swim broken IM's but I will break at the 50 in the fly then at the 100's thereafter, in order to practice the transition turns. Also that way I can swim decent fly for the entire 100. That seems to work best for me, take 10 seconds on the break. And I have yet to figure out how to "loaf" butterfly, I try to swim it "relaxed". I am experimenting with breathing patterns on the fly too, trying to get more air in the first part of the race, however the fly feels smoothest when I breathe every other stroke. Any more than that and my hips start sinking and I have to kick harder, kinda defeating the purpose of getting more air if I use it all up in the fly anyway.

That Guy
September 18th, 2011, 10:42 AM
I don't know which one will be harder...probably the SCY

What was that sound? It almost sounded like... someone in Arizona cracking their knuckles...

__steve__
September 18th, 2011, 11:00 AM
The backstroke is the recovery stroke anyway...why else would anyone else float on their back? :)I thought you stated bk was one of the evil strokes. Is recovery the actual root of evil in strokes?

Karl_S
September 18th, 2011, 01:31 PM
I also swim 400 IM and I like to swim broken IM's but I will break at the 50 in the fly then at the 100's thereafter, in order to practice the transition turns. Also that way I can swim decent fly for the entire 100. That seems to work best for me, take 10 seconds on the break.
How does you add-up time for one of these broken 400 IMs compare to your race time?

Karl_S
September 18th, 2011, 01:35 PM
However, Karl - you're a backstroker right? So I would think that even after going out hard on fly, you'd manage a decent backstroke leg and maybe even recover a little in time for the breast?
Gulity as charged. I think you may be onto something though. Maybe I can push the fly a little harder because i can take the edge of the backstroke and not loose as much time as someone for whom backstroke is their weakest stroke. In other words, an easy fly costs more time than a recovery backstroke for me... maybe.

pwb
September 18th, 2011, 03:57 PM
.. I'll try my best to sprint the fly...Thanks for the heads up on your strategy for next weekend:).

I like the comment from the Israeli Olympian this month in Swimmer about 'sleeping' the 1st 100 of a 200 fly. I like to think about sleeping the fly on the 400 IM as much as possible. No use getting all tuckered out on the hardest leg with three strokes still to swim.

jaadams1
September 18th, 2011, 07:41 PM
Thanks for the heads up on your strategy for next weekend:).

I like the comment from the Israeli Olympian this month in Swimmer about 'sleeping' the 1st 100 of a 200 fly. I like to think about sleeping the fly on the 400 IM as much as possible. No use getting all tuckered out on the hardest leg with three strokes still to swim.


Not a problem...your back and breast will swim circles around me anyway, so I figure I'll just go for it! Maybe I'll even turn some heads being ahead of the great PWB for a portion of the 400 IM!! I'm in some of the greatest shape I've been in for a while too, so I've got reserves to fall back on.

orca1946
September 20th, 2011, 06:29 PM
Fly & free are my best with breaststroke being :badday::cane:my down fall!!

Redbird Alum
September 23rd, 2011, 12:38 PM
....I'm looking for a similar training tool for the 400 IM. For 4x100 IMO with N seconds rest between 100s, what value of N gives an add-up close to race time? Is this even a reasonable approach? It removes all of the change-stroke turns. Would it would be better to break at 50, 150 and 350? That seems cumbersome.

If you want to maintain the transitions as part of your "pacing" and want to account for the natural "anticipation/renewal" you feel when you approach/start each new stroke... Try this... (will mean you need a clock at both ends, synchonized)

25 fly - 5s rest
50 fly - 10s rest
50 fly-back - 5s rest
50 back - 10s rest
50 back-breast - 5s rest
50 breast - 10s rest
50 breast-free - 5s rest
50 free - 10s rest
25 free

At the end, take the cumulative time and strip one minute off. (easy math!) I have found that learning to work the middle 50 of each stroke in this set helps alot in keeping my head straight in the actual 400 swim.

Let me know what you think. It's worked for me in the past.

Karl_S
September 23rd, 2011, 01:02 PM
If you want to maintain the transitions as part of your "pacing" and want to account for the natural "anticipation/renewal" you feel when you approach/start each new stroke... Try this... (will mean you need a clock at both ends, synchonized)

25 fly - 5s rest
50 fly - 10s rest
50 fly-back - 5s rest
50 back - 10s rest
50 back-breast - 5s rest
50 breast - 10s rest
50 breast-free - 5s rest
50 free - 10s rest
25 free

At the end, take the cumulative time and strip one minute off. (easy math!) I have found that learning to work the middle 50 of each stroke in this set helps alot in keeping my head straight in the actual 400 swim.

Let me know what you think. It's worked for me in the past.
This looks like a good pacing tool. I will try it out very soon, (but not today, I already finished a tough workout). Thanks for sharing.

ande
September 23rd, 2011, 02:01 PM
I've a question for the experienced 400 IMers.
In preparing for the 200 bk (and and very recently also the 200 br) I have found that swimming sets of 4x50 with about 8-10s between the 50s is a valuable training tool. It allows me to practice at or near race pace, yet the rest is sufficiently brief that it "feels like" a full 200, as opposed to swimming shorter distances on longer intervals. I also find that the add-up time for a strong effort on (4x50 with 8-10s rest) is a pretty good indicator of what I can expect for a full 200 in a race.
I'm looking for a similar training tool for the 400 IM. For 4x100 IMO with N seconds rest between 100s, what value of N gives an add-up close to race time? Is this even a reasonable approach? It removes all of the change-stroke turns. Would it would be better to break at 50, 150 and 350? That seems cumbersome.

Do broken swims or not, I tend to be faster on broken swims than I go in actual races. Coaches tend to assign broken swims during taper.

The most important IM turn is the BK to Br, if you don't do them right, you'll give up time. So have it down.

Correct Splitting is Critical for 400 IMs
here's what's worked for me (http://www.usms.org/forums/blog.php?b=15320)
you want to feel pretty good at the 200 so you can really work the BR & FR

Improve your breastroke technique

You need speed and conditioning to have a strong 2 & 4 IM, be in great shape,
Train for the 200, 400, 500, 800 & 1000 fr, the 200 bk & br.

Develop your easy speed fly

My 400 IM reminders for the 1st 200 are:
BREATHE often, stay relaxed, easy speed, smooth, barely kick / save your legs

Swim Faster Faster,

Ande

Karl_S
September 23rd, 2011, 05:12 PM
Do broken swims or not, I tend to be faster on broken swims than I go in actual races. Coaches tend to assign broken swims during taper.

Thanks Ande. I was hoping you would chime in.


The most important IM turn is the BK to Br, if you don't do them right, you'll give up time. So have it down.

This is a major weakness for me. 'need to work on that. I'll have to corner a coach.


Correct Splitting is Critical for 400 IMs
here's what's worked for me (http://www.usms.org/forums/blog.php?b=15320)
you want to feel pretty good at the 200 so you can really work the BR & FR

I need to learn what "pretty good" feels like at the 200 in a 4IM.



Improve your breastroke technique

You need speed and conditioning to have a strong 2 & 4 IM, be in great shape,
Train for the 200, 400, 500, 800 & 1000 fr, the 200 bk & br.

Develop your easy speed fly

check, check, check. Working hard on those three.



My 400 IM reminders for the 1st 200 are:
BREATHE often, stay relaxed, easy speed, smooth, barely kick / save your legs
In bk and br I think that a lot of my speed (what little I have) comes from my legs. I'm thinking that for me maybe it makes sense to use my legs hard in the middle 200 as opposed to the back half. I really need to do some testing. That's gonna be a challenge. It's not like I can swim 10x400 IM in one practice and try different strategies. Over many weeks and months though I have noticed that my best 400 IM times in practice come when the fly is a pretty hard effort - not like a 50, but certainly much harder than I would go if I were to swim a 200 fly, (which I have only done in practice a handful of times and never in a meet). I will do more testing.

Karl_S
November 15th, 2011, 04:55 PM
If you want to maintain the transitions as part of your "pacing" and want to account for the natural "anticipation/renewal" you feel when you approach/start each new stroke... Try this... (will mean you need a clock at both ends, synchonized)

25 fly - 5s rest
50 fly - 10s rest
50 fly-back - 5s rest
50 back - 10s rest
50 back-breast - 5s rest
50 breast - 10s rest
50 breast-free - 5s rest
50 free - 10s rest
25 free

At the end, take the cumulative time and strip one minute off. (easy math!) I have found that learning to work the middle 50 of each stroke in this set helps alot in keeping my head straight in the actual 400 swim.

Let me know what you think. It's worked for me in the past.
My training was interrupted by a head cold, but I'm back at it and tried a few of these. I did a slightly modified version, (mostly because I wasn't not confident I could keep your rest intervals straight.)

75 fly - 10s rest
50 fly-back - 10s rest
50 back - 10s rest
50 back-breast - 10s rest
50 breast - 10s rest
50 breast-free - 10s rest
75 free

I did:
broken 400 IM,
200 free mod,
full 400 IM,
200 free mod,
broken 400 IM.

These were not hard efforts, more like cruise+.
The add-up times on the broken 400 IMs were within 2s of each other.
The full 400 IM was 10s slower than the first (faster) of the 2 broken swims.
I'd hope for a bit more than 10s between my best practice swim and a meet performance, but I'll just have to wait for a meet to see how it works out.

How does your add-up time compared to a best-effort full 400 IM relate to your meet performance?

Interestingly, the add-up time on the broken 400s was very close to the add-up time for this set, which I have done numerous times:
8x(50/:50) done as
50 fly,
25 fly + 25 bk,
50 bk,
25 bk + 25 br,
50 br,
25 br + 25 fr,
50 fr,
50 fr mod.

Of course this latter set cheats me out of 25 fly.

Ex-distance guy
November 15th, 2011, 07:29 PM
Do broken swims or not, I tend to be faster on broken swims than I go in actual races. Coaches tend to assign broken swims during taper.

The most important IM turn is the BK to Br, if you don't do them right, you'll give up time. So have it down.

Correct Splitting is Critical for 400 IMs
here's what's worked for me (http://www.usms.org/forums/blog.php?b=15320)
you want to feel pretty good at the 200 so you can really work the BR & FR

Improve your breastroke technique

You need speed and conditioning to have a strong 2 & 4 IM, be in great shape,
Train for the 200, 400, 500, 800 & 1000 fr, the 200 bk & br.

Develop your easy speed fly

My 400 IM reminders for the 1st 200 are:
BREATHE often, stay relaxed, easy speed, smooth, barely kick / save your legs

Swim Faster Faster,

Ande


I love the 400IM. It was my favorite event to race but not my best, due to 100 yards of breastroke. I am a pigeon footed, long lanky person built for long axis strokes. I cant do a proper breastroke kick worth crap. I don't know if I'm doing anything in proper in breastroke lol.
I have never raced 100-200 breast and never plan to. I just want to find a way I can keep decent momentum without too much effort in the breast section of the 400IM (where I used to get destroyed, it was pathetic, I usually used it as a resting point so I could bring home a strong free).
My splits would look something like this by hundred:
:53
:56
1:24
:52
This was 5+ years ago, I have just started training again a month ago, and all my strokes still feel good/decent except breastroke. I am doing breast differently that I used to, but it is still very very slow. On a positive note, I feel I might could start over or re-do/re-learn my whole breast technique. I need to work on my leg/ankle flexibility for breast for sure. As I can't generate hardly any propulsion with a kick. My legs/ankles just won't grab the water!

I need to find some stretches and things I could do to help my legs work more like those breastroke weirdos who walk around with their feet turned out. Any ideas?

ElaineK
November 15th, 2011, 09:20 PM
This was 5+ years ago, I have just started training again a month ago, and all my strokes still feel good/decent except breastroke. I am doing breast differently that I used to, but it is still very very slow. On a positive note, I feel I might could start over or re-do/re-learn my whole breast technique. I need to work on my leg/ankle flexibility for breast for sure. As I can't generate hardly any propulsion with a kick. My legs/ankles just won't grab the water!

I need to find some stretches and things I could do to help my legs work more like those breastroke weirdos who walk around with their feet turned out. Any ideas?

Yep! Head on over to "The Breaststroke Lane" for everything you need to know. King Frog (Allen Stark) is THE man- uhhh- frog! :cheerleader: :applaud:
The Breastroke Lane - U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums

Karl_S
December 15th, 2011, 06:23 PM
SCM season is almost over.
I don't know if these will hold up, but current event rankings show:

USMS Times Reported for Men SCM 400 IM Ages 40-44
2011 Season (2011-01-01 through 2011-12-31)
1 Brundage, Patrick W 44 4:48.34 ARIZ 2011 AZ Masters SCM State Champions

USMS Times Reported for Men SCM 400 IM Ages 45-49
2011 Season (2011-01-01 through 2011-12-31)
1 Rasmussen, Anders M 48 4:52.31 TXLA South Central Regional Invitational

Next year should be fun to watch!

That Guy
December 15th, 2011, 09:28 PM
SCM season is almost over.
I don't know if these will hold up, but current event rankings show:

USMS Times Reported for Men SCM 400 IM Ages 40-44
2011 Season (2011-01-01 through 2011-12-31)
1 Brundage, Patrick W 44 4:48.34 ARIZ 2011 AZ Masters SCM State Champions

USMS Times Reported for Men SCM 400 IM Ages 45-49
2011 Season (2011-01-01 through 2011-12-31)
1 Rasmussen, Anders M 48 4:52.31 TXLA South Central Regional Invitational

Next year should be fun to watch!

why are we whispering?

Karl_S
August 23rd, 2012, 04:14 PM
I was trying to invent a set/drill to help prepare for the breaststroke pullouts in the IM, especially the 400 IM. This is what I came up with:


SCY or SCM:
4x(
150 kick -no rest, straight into...
20 fly sprinty -switch to breaststroke at the flags...
30 breaststroke DPS -i.e. take the fewest strokes possible on the last 25.)


I did the kick part RIMO by round.


Going for the fewest breaststroke strokes possible on that last 25 forces you to NOT shorten the pullout. (My best effort was 5 SPL)


I really liked this set so I decided to share it here. I'm not saying I liked the suffering on the breaststroke pullouts, but it seems to give pretty good race-simulation breaststroke pullouts with the added benefit of providing some kick endurace work. Have fun!

That Guy
August 23rd, 2012, 04:32 PM
I was trying to invent a set/drill to help prepare for the breaststroke pullouts in the IM, especially the 400 IM. This is what I came up with:


SCY or SCM:
4x(
150 kick -no rest, straight into...
20 fly sprinty -switch to breaststroke at the flags...
30 breaststroke DPS -i.e. take the fewest strokes possible on the last 25.)


I did the kick part RIMO by round.


Going for the fewest breaststroke strokes possible on that last 25 forces you to NOT shorten the pullout. (My best effort was 5 SPL)


I really liked this set so I decided to share it here. I'm not saying I liked the suffering on the breaststroke pullouts, but it seems to give pretty good race-simulation breaststroke pullouts with the added benefit of providing some kick endurace work. Have fun!

I always do back-to-breast flip turns in practice. Never open turns. That right there makes a big difference because I'm always starting off the breaststroke leg without much oxygen. And I try to always take long pullouts because my breaststroke is nothing to write home about. 5 SPL is really good - in SCY, that is the best I can do without getting silly about it.

ande
August 27th, 2012, 12:30 PM
I was trying to invent a set/drill to help prepare for the breaststroke pullouts in the IM, especially the 400 IM.
This is what I came up with:

SCY or SCM:
4x(
150 kick -no rest, straight into...
20 fly sprinty -switch to breaststroke at the flags...
30 breaststroke DPS -i.e. take the fewest strokes possible on the last 25.)

I did the kick part RIMO by round.

Going for the fewest breaststroke strokes possible on that last 25 forces you to NOT shorten the pullout. (My best effort was 5 SPL)

I really liked this set so I decided to share it here. I'm not saying I liked the suffering on the breaststroke pullouts, but it seems to give pretty good race-simulation breaststroke pullouts with the added benefit of providing some kick endurace work. Have fun!

Don't pussy foot around, just practice what you want to get better at
better breastroke pullouts in IMs
so do 150 or 300 IMs just swim FL BK BR, swim them various ways
fast with rest, easy speed, race simulation, neg split by 25 or 50, & desc sets
but always with an emphasis on breastroke and breastroke pull outs

when I race IMs, on fly & back I:
1) swim easy speed,
2) save my legs, doing smaller kicks with less force, I do one beat kick fly
3) not many SDKs &
4) breathe a lot, especially as I approach the BK to BR turn

The goal is to feel pretty comfortable at the 100 in the 200 or the 200 in the 400
so I can have a fast BK to Br turn, long pull outs then
work the BR, but not by spinning, but by having a fast insweep & thrust on the pull and a fast kick with more streamline glide after each kick

If you go out too hard in IMs you run out of breath and your legs die, killing your kick.

ElaineK
September 5th, 2012, 05:01 PM
Hey IMers! Will you check out my 400 IM video? It was only my second time racing the event; I only started training for it a couple of months ago. My fly is slowww :cane:; I know I need to work on my speed and keep amplitude smaller on the kick, so my feet don't come out of the water. My backstroke is slow, too; I'm mostly trying to figure out what speed to swim fly and backstroke, so I don't die early in the 400 IM. As a newbie at it, I know it will come with experience.

What I would really appreciate is some stroke feedback. I know my turns were pathetically slow; that, too, will improve as I get better able to imploy my sprint-style turns, as I adapt to the demands of this event. (Flip turns are not possible, due to an inner ear disorder that causes me to get disoriented and seasick when I flip.)

Thanks in advance for your help! :agree:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbhFtnyPNm4&feature=share&list=UUaJqJScxsYtclOJAW-i-gpw

chowsh
September 5th, 2012, 07:23 PM
hey elaine! i saw your other thread about your turns but couldn't watch those videos anymore so here's my thoughts on my 400 im video

unless you're intentionally holding on for a sec to catch your breath, there's no reason to reach up to the gutter on your fly turns. all you have to do is touch the walll in front of you, then "richocet" off the wall (the 3rd fly turn and your breast turns are more of what you should be doing on your other fly turns)

are you able to stay longer underwater (streamline/flutter or few dolphin kicks) before your breakout in the backstroke?

have you ever learned the old fashioned backstroke whip turn, as opposed to just an open turn? would it also make you dizzy? can you do it faster than an open turn?

have you determined with your breaststroke experience, when you need oxygen and will forgo the underwater pullout? obviously, training to be able to do the pullouts at each turn would be helpful

having never raced with freestyle open turns, i guess you're doing it as well as possible! the quicker/snappier you can get thru the turns, the better!

with most of your turns, you don't need to reach as far as placing your palm on the wall (nor sink/pull into the walls with bent elbows, which i don't see you doing). all you have to do is touch with your fingertips, hopefullly with perfect degree of outstretch of your arms, and then bring your body around as quickly as possible (think the hand-over-ear body twist, like in breastroke turns) and legs placed in position for maximum pushoff power

fly is my weak link as well. i've only ever swum the 400 im once (checked that off the list :) but for 200 im's, i try to just maintain easy speed and form during the fly; don't forget that race adrenaline usually adds a boost to your fly leg as well. since you're a breastroker, you don't want to tire yourself out too much on the back. try to build/maintain speed on the back, catching your breath after the fly and making sure you've got enough air in the lungs, going into the back-breast turn. breastroke is your forte, so Bring It on this leg, but maintain form and don't spin (unfortuantely, it's not the 100 im :D . freestyle, i would try to build to the point that you've figured out that you can do an all-you-have-left sprint. as a breastroker, i think you can really feel the building momemtum and finishing strong!, from the breaststroke through freestyle legs

you'll have to play with the pacing, for each stroke leg, and for the race as a whole, to see what works best for you. remember there are FIFTEEN turns in a short course 400 im, so it's worth working on them!

ElaineK
September 6th, 2012, 01:01 PM
hey elaine! i saw your other thread about your turns but couldn't watch those videos anymore so here's my thoughts on my 400 im video

unless you're intentionally holding on for a sec to catch your breath, there's no reason to reach up to the gutter on your fly turns. all you have to do is touch the walll in front of you, then "richocet" off the wall (the 3rd fly turn and your breast turns are more of what you should be doing on your other fly turns)

are you able to stay longer underwater (streamline/flutter or few dolphin kicks) before your breakout in the backstroke?

have you ever learned the old fashioned backstroke whip turn, as opposed to just an open turn? would it also make you dizzy? can you do it faster than an open turn?

have you determined with your breaststroke experience, when you need oxygen and will forgo the underwater pullout? obviously, training to be able to do the pullouts at each turn would be helpful

having never raced with freestyle open turns, i guess you're doing it as well as possible! the quicker/snappier you can get thru the turns, the better!

with most of your turns, you don't need to reach as far as placing your palm on the wall (nor sink/pull into the walls with bent elbows, which i don't see you doing). all you have to do is touch with your fingertips, hopefullly with perfect degree of outstretch of your arms, and then bring your body around as quickly as possible (think the hand-over-ear body twist, like in breastroke turns) and legs placed in position for maximum pushoff power

fly is my weak link as well. i've only ever swum the 400 im once (checked that off the list :) but for 200 im's, i try to just maintain easy speed and form during the fly; don't forget that race adrenaline usually adds a boost to your fly leg as well. since you're a breastroker, you don't want to tire yourself out too much on the back. try to build/maintain speed on the back, catching your breath after the fly and making sure you've got enough air in the lungs, going into the back-breast turn. breastroke is your forte, so Bring It on this leg, but maintain form and don't spin (unfortuantely, it's not the 100 im :D . freestyle, i would try to build to the point that you've figured out that you can do an all-you-have-left sprint. as a breastroker, i think you can really feel the building momemtum and finishing strong!, from the breaststroke through freestyle legs

you'll have to play with the pacing, for each stroke leg, and for the race as a whole, to see what works best for you. remember there are FIFTEEN turns in a short course 400 im, so it's worth working on them!

Hey there, chowsh! Thanks for taking the time to watch my video and post feedback on my strokes. I appreciate getting feedback from different swimmers, because everybody sees different things and provides a unique perspective. So, I take it all in and paste it into my ongoing Word Doc on stroke advice that I read regularly as a reminder on what to work on.

Anyway, about those fly turns... :blush: Ya think? Yeah, I'll admit it; I used it as a great excuse for an extra breath! I am usually more disciplined than that and don't even do it at my home pool that is designed the same way. BUSTED. :agree:

On backstroke, I am trying to get used to swimming it without a nose clip. When I use a clip, I am able to stay under longer, but I just can't get used to using a clip for the other strokes. So, I am not using it on IM. Since that meet, I have been swimming more and more backstroke without a clip and I am trying to get better at getting a good breath before the turn, so I can get some good kicking in off the wall.

As for the bacstroke turn, the only one I have learned is a bucket/open turn. I am open to trying it another way; I just need to learn how to do it. And, while I am learning, I'll find out soon enough whether my inner ears will let me do it. :afraid:

On breaststroke, I did a pullout on each of my turns. I always do; I have never skipped a pullout- ever. Now, I will admit I have surfaced from a pullout gasping for air on that first breath, at times, during a 200 breaststroke race, but I always do a pullout.

I'll keep working on those turns; thanks for your advice!

Cheers!
:chug:

chowmi
September 6th, 2012, 02:58 PM
hey elaine! i saw your other thread about your turns but couldn't watch those videos anymore so here's my thoughts on my 400 im video

unless you're intentionally holding on for a sec to catch your breath, there's no reason to reach up to the gutter on your fly turns. all you have to do is touch the walll in front of you, then "richocet" off the wall (the 3rd fly turn and your breast turns are more of what you should be doing on your other fly turns)

are you able to stay longer underwater (streamline/flutter or few dolphin kicks) before your breakout in the backstroke?



have you ever learned the old fashioned backstroke whip turn, as opposed to just an open turn? would it also make you dizzy? can you do it faster than an open turn?

have you determined with your breaststroke experience, when you need oxygen and will forgo the underwater pullout? obviously, training to be able to do the pullouts at each turn would be helpful

having never raced with freestyle open turns, i guess you're doing it as well as possible! the quicker/snappier you can get thru the turns, the better!

with most of your turns, you don't need to reach as far as placing your palm on the wall (nor sink/pull into the walls with bent elbows, which i don't see you doing). all you have to do is touch with your fingertips, hopefullly with perfect degree of outstretch of your arms, and then bring your body around as quickly as possible (think the hand-over-ear body twist, like in breastroke turns) and legs placed in position for maximum pushoff power

fly is my weak link as well. i've only ever swum the 400 im once (checked that off the list :) but for 200 im's, i try to just maintain easy speed and form during the fly; don't forget that race adrenaline usually adds a boost to your fly leg as well. since you're a breastroker, you don't want to tire yourself out too much on the back. try to build/maintain speed on the back, catching your breath after the fly and making sure you've got enough air in the lungs, going into the back-breast turn. breastroke is your forte, so Bring It on this leg, but maintain form and don't spin (unfortuantely, it's not the 100 im :D . freestyle, i would try to build to the point that you've figured out that you can do an all-you-have-left sprint. as a breastroker, i think you can really feel the building momemtum and finishing strong!, from the breaststroke through freestyle legs

you'll have to play with the pacing, for each stroke leg, and for the race as a whole, to see what works best for you. remember there are FIFTEEN turns in a short course 400 im, so it's worth working on them!

you're so awesome. i wish we were roommates. oh wait, we were for 16 years!

No seriously, great advice. The way I used to do the 400im, short version, is first to get conditioning up for the 16 lengths, but in race focus on every turn and go smooth in the middle bits. You're actually going faster on the middle bits from adreniline, but the by really working the turns & breakouts, that is where the money is! If you "save" even just 1/4 of a second on every turn plus the dive, then that's 4 secs right there for not really working any harder (assuming you have conditioned up to it)! If you can eek out another .25 on half more, then that's another 2 seconds! Try and map out your event and where you think you bog down the most.

ElaineK
September 6th, 2012, 05:37 PM
you're so awesome. i wish we were roommates. oh wait, we were for 16 years!

No seriously, great advice. The way I used to do the 400im, short version, is first to get conditioning up for the 16 lengths, but in race focus on every turn and go smooth in the middle bits. You're actually going faster on the middle bits from adreniline, but the by really working the turns & breakouts, that is where the money is! If you "save" even just 1/4 of a second on every turn plus the dive, then that's 4 secs right there for not really working any harder (assuming you have conditioned up to it)! If you can eek out another .25 on half more, then that's another 2 seconds! Try and map out your event and where you think you bog down the most.

Thanks for the advice, chow! First 'sh and now 'mi; :banana:! So, it's definitely the turns, since there are so many of them in 400 IM. I have worked hard on my breaststroke turns, since 50 & 100 breaststroke are my best events, but I have a lot of work to do on the others; especially my backstroke turn.

Aside from practice "racing", I have only raced the 400 IM twice; once LCM and once SCY. Both times, I negative split, but I have a lot of work to do to improve my race overall. At least I am closer to an "A" on the Motivational Times Chart than a "BB"! :D As a newbie brute squad event swimmer, I'll take it, considering I am still not even on the chart for 100 or 200 fly! :afraid:

chowsh
September 7th, 2012, 12:38 AM
elaine, you are awesome for adding challenging events to your race program! you've done a long course 400 im?? :bow: looking forward to hearing how you progress!

__steve__
September 7th, 2012, 07:11 AM
Elaine's enthusiasm towards swimming new events has been motivating to witness. My next opportunity I will be doing the 100IM, where a year ago I wouldn't have even thought of it.

ElaineK
September 7th, 2012, 01:54 PM
elaine, you are awesome for adding challenging events to your race program! you've done a long course 400 im?? :bow: looking forward to hearing how you progress!

Yeah... Back in June, I wanted to see if I could swim 100 fly continuously which would mean I could swim a 400 IM. (I hadn't actually tried 100 fly since high school). I made it, so I wanted to see if I could swim a legal 200 fly. To make sure it was legal, I had my husband video the swim, so I could review my stroke. When I (very slowly :cane:) finally made 200 yards without stopping, I decided to keep going to see just how much I could swim. At 900 yards, my husband gave me that if-looks-could-kill glare, because his arms were getting tired from holding the camera. I had lost count of my yards, so I didn't know it was 900 until I reviewed the video. And, yes, it was all legal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fmP1szg4mo&feature=share&list=UUaJqJScxsYtclOJAW-i-gpw

Two weeks later, I decided to swim it again; this time trying to make it to 1,000, because 1,000 sure sounded better to me than 900! :agree: So, I brought a tripod and asked my husband to keep track of the yards and let me know where I was from time to time. When I made it to 1,000, I decided to see if I could make it to 1,100... then 1,200, then, well, why not try for a mile? At some point during the video, the file became so large the camera automatically stopped and wrote the file to the card: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PJouksr3wI&feature=share&list=UUaJqJScxsYtclOJAW-i-gpw Bruce started it up again, so my swim is in 2 parts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfKKZa3uUYM&feature=share&list=UUaJqJScxsYtclOJAW-i-gpw :bed: At the 2,000 mark, he came around to the end of the pool to tell me the camera stopped again. By the time he finished telling me, it wasn't a continuous swim any longer, so I just stopped. Besides, he was :bitching: at me about hurting my shoulders again. (See page 36 of the current issue of Swimmer Magazine). Yeah, my shoulders were tired at that point, but they never did hurt; not even the next day or few.

So, :blah: (this story is getting long...), I decided if I could swim a 2,000 yard butterfly, I could swim any event at a USMS meet- slow, perhaps, but I could swim it legally.

After swimming my first open water meet (Georgia Games) and swimming a 3k, followed by a 1k a few minutes later, my coach declared me a distance swimmer; especially since I was able to negative split those races and hold my stroke count and pace on my 2,000 yard fly. So, I decided to swim the maximum 10 events allowed at Dixie Zone LC Championships, in early August, and signed up for 5 new (for me) events: 100 fly, 400 fr (on Saturday, in addition to my other three events and a relay); 200 fly, 400 IM, 800fr (on Sunday, in addition to two other events and a relay). My 400m IM was only 8:10 (converts to around 7:10 SCY), but it improved at my next meet (6:51.06); the one on the video you viewed.

So, I really want to keep working on my 400 IM. I am already better at it than some other events I have been training for a lot longer. (Same goes for the 1650.)

I'm not so sure I deserve a :bow:, but thanks for your encouragement 'sh! :chug:

ElaineK
September 7th, 2012, 02:00 PM
Elaine's enthusiasm towards swimming new events has been motivating to witness. My next opportunity I will be doing the 100IM, where a year ago I wouldn't have even thought of it.

:smooch: Thanks, Steve! I would really like to see you swim that 100IM! :cheerleader: REALLY! Like, next time you see me at a meet, will you actually come out of the shadows and introduce yourself to me? Don't make me study the heat sheets and go up to every "Steve" and ask if it's you like a stalker! :afraid::bolt:

Thank you. :D

Edit: Ok... after a little bit of sleuthing I figured out exactly who you are. (It didn't take a rocket scientist, fortunately. :D). Still, don't wait for me to track you down at the blocks at the next meet, ok? :bouncing:

shadowxvi
September 7th, 2012, 03:55 PM
Trying to get back into swimming more. Am wanting to train for 400 im and 200 fly. Fly is by far my best stroke although ive lost much of endurance after not swimming hardly at all. After that its probably breast then free and least is back. Should i work fly more than rest or train all evenly? And when i train other strokes should i pick days to work each individual stroke or mainly focus on im sets?

Thanks, steve

shadowxvi
September 7th, 2012, 04:00 PM
And quick second question: I am a delivery driver and have to lift about 20'000 lbs each day, 5days a week...should i keep a couple days off or would it be better to swim every day shorter swims?

That Guy
September 7th, 2012, 04:17 PM
Trying to get back into swimming more. Am wanting to train for 400 im and 200 fly. Fly is by far my best stroke although ive lost much of endurance after not swimming hardly at all. After that its probably breast then free and least is back. Should i work fly more than rest or train all evenly? And when i train other strokes should i pick days to work each individual stroke or mainly focus on im sets?

Thanks, steve

I think this is a personal choice. I couldn't tell you the last time I did a breaststroke set. If you just want to survive the fly (like I just try to survive the breaststroke), maybe do less fly in practice. If you want to attack it, then work it more.

shadowxvi
September 8th, 2012, 06:30 PM
To clarify second question do i have a greater chance of injury doing more yards less sessions or more sessions probably less yards

That Guy
September 10th, 2012, 07:55 PM
:smooch: Thanks, Steve! I would really like to see you swim that 100IM! :cheerleader: REALLY! Like, next time you see me at a meet, will you actually come out of the shadows and introduce yourself to me? Don't make me study the heat sheets and go up to every "Steve" and ask if it's you like a stalker! :afraid::bolt:

Thank you. :D

Edit: Ok... after a little bit of sleuthing I figured out exactly who you are. (It didn't take a rocket scientist, fortunately. :D). Still, don't wait for me to track you down at the blocks at the next meet, ok? :bouncing:

According to his new picatar, he should be pretty easy to spot at a meet. Or anywhere, for that matter. Not many people can hover in the air streamlined like that. I'm kinda jealous.

ElaineK
September 10th, 2012, 10:19 PM
According to his new picatar, he should be pretty easy to spot at a meet. Or anywhere, for that matter. Not many people can hover in the air streamlined like that. I'm kinda jealous.

:lmao:Yeah, you have a good point there! But, after looking at meet results from two meets I know he competed in, I learned his true identity. :anim_coffee:

__steve__
September 11th, 2012, 07:41 AM
According to his new picatar, he should be pretty easy to spot at a meet. Or anywhere, for that matter. Not many people can hover in the air streamlined like that. I'm kinda jealous.
I was actually sculling backward at high speed then rocketed out of the water landing on the block. Anyway, my head looked funny because I was looking behind for a safe landing, so I changed it to one more like your original avatar, kind of.

ElaineK
September 11th, 2012, 02:19 PM
I was actually sculling backward at high speed then rocketed out of the water landing on the block. Anyway, my head looked funny because I was looking behind for a safe landing, so I changed it to one more like your original avatar, kind of.

:lmao: Visualizing what that would look like ( :afraid:) was good for an extra laugh! I always know where to come to get my daily dose of giggles for the day, thanks to you crazy Forumites... :D

So, Steve, now you have to explain your avatar to all of us who are scientifically challenged. :bouncing:

__steve__
September 11th, 2012, 08:13 PM
ATP before oxidation, duh, kidding.
But you see the 3 phosphates? That's how we get energy to swim. I believe one of my phosphates is malfunctioning.

ElaineK
September 11th, 2012, 09:29 PM
ATP before oxidation, duh, kidding.
But you see the 3 phosphates? That's how we get energy to swim. I believe one of my phosphates is malfunctioning.

Ahhhh, hence the "aerobically challenged" listed under your avatar. :D

That Guy
September 18th, 2012, 02:56 PM
3000 IM Postal Challenge

Your mission, should you choose to accept it: swim the 3000 yard postal event (https://www.clubassistant.com/club/meet_information.cfm?c=1287&smid=3918) as an IM and report your results here.

I went 41:23 this morning in a drag suit with no special preparation and no coffee. Is that a good time? I have no idea. :dunno:

ElaineK
September 18th, 2012, 03:26 PM
3000 IM Postal Challenge

Your mission, should you choose to accept it: swim the 3000 yard postal event (https://www.clubassistant.com/club/meet_information.cfm?c=1287&smid=3918) as an IM and report your results here.

I went 41:23 this morning in a drag suit with no special preparation and no coffee. Is that a good time? I have no idea. :dunno:

That sounds like an awesome time to me! :applaud:

I would definitely choose the mission for the fly, back, and free portion! :banana: Unfortunately, I will have to take a pass, because it would be too much strain on my adductor and other :bitching: thigh muscles for the breaststroke portion. :badday:

thewookiee
September 18th, 2012, 03:43 PM
3000 IM Postal Challenge

Your mission, should you choose to accept it: swim the 3000 yard postal event (https://www.clubassistant.com/club/meet_information.cfm?c=1287&smid=3918) as an IM and report your results here.


I don't.

jaadams1
September 18th, 2012, 07:44 PM
3000 IM Postal Challenge

Your mission, should you choose to accept it: swim the 3000 yard postal event (https://www.clubassistant.com/club/meet_information.cfm?c=1287&smid=3918) as an IM and report your results here.

I went 41:23 this morning in a drag suit with no special preparation and no coffee. Is that a good time? I have no idea. :dunno:

I'm going 800 IM with you at NW Zone SCM next month, and that's it. You're crazy! :agree:

Swimosaur
September 18th, 2012, 08:23 PM
Your mission, should you choose to accept it: swim the 3000 yard postal event (https://www.clubassistant.com/club/meet_information.cfm?c=1287&smid=3918) as an IM and report your results here.

Challenge accepted! Mostly! I don't have a workout partner to write down splits, so I can't officially enter the event. I'll get splits myself at the end of each 750.


I went 41:23 this morning in a drag suit with no special preparation and no coffee. Is that a good time? I have no idea. :dunno:

:whiteflag: It's a lot better than I expect I'll do!

That Guy
September 18th, 2012, 10:52 PM
Challenge accepted! Mostly! I don't have a workout partner to write down splits, so I can't officially enter the event. I'll get splits myself at the end of each 750.



:whiteflag: It's a lot better than I expect I'll do!

Way to go Swimosaur! As for official splits and all that, I entered even though it was just me and I was sketchy on my splits. If I were claiming a time that broke a record or was at least somewhat competitive against the freestylers in my age group, then it might matter, but I did neither of those things. :) Same deal back in January when I did the One Hour Postal all backstroke :anim_coffee:

Swimosaur
September 19th, 2012, 10:12 PM
Your mission, should you choose to accept it: swim the 3000 yard postal event (https://www.clubassistant.com/club/meet_information.cfm?c=1287&smid=3918) as an IM and report your results here.

Dang, that's a long swim.

Stroke.....Cumul.Subtr.Pace...........
750 flyy - 13:29 13:29 1:47.87 per 100
750 back - 25:36 12:07 1:36.93 per 100
750 brst - 40:06 14:30 1:56.00 per 100
750 free - 50:58 10:52 1:26.93 per 100

Total - 50:58

Fly & breast, 7 spl; back 13 spl; free 15 spl. I might have done an extra 50 breast. There was not much point to swimming anything after the first 500 fly; I was just mailing it in.

But it's done!

That Guy
September 20th, 2012, 12:55 AM
Dang, that's a long swim.

Stroke.....Cumul.Subtr.Pace...........
750 flyy - 13:29 13:29 1:47.87 per 100
750 back - 25:36 12:07 1:36.93 per 100
750 brst - 40:06 14:30 1:56.00 per 100
750 free - 50:58 10:52 1:26.93 per 100

Total - 50:58

Fly & breast, 7 spl; back 13 spl; free 15 spl. I might have done an extra 50 breast. There was not much point to swimming anything after the first 500 fly; I was just mailing it in.

But it's done!

Great job! I'll admit that after the fly, my first couple hundred backstroke was basically recovery swimming.

jaadams1
September 20th, 2012, 01:15 AM
Dang, that's a long swim.

Stroke.....Cumul.Subtr.Pace...........
750 flyy - 13:29 13:29 1:47.87 per 100
750 back - 25:36 12:07 1:36.93 per 100
750 brst - 40:06 14:30 1:56.00 per 100
750 free - 50:58 10:52 1:26.93 per 100

Total - 50:58

Fly & breast, 7 spl; back 13 spl; free 15 spl. I might have done an extra 50 breast. There was not much point to swimming anything after the first 500 fly; I was just mailing it in.

But it's done!

Nice job, now we officially have 2 crazies out there! :applaud:

Swimosaur
September 20th, 2012, 10:40 AM
... after the fly, my first couple hundred backstroke was basically recovery swimming.

After the fly, my next 2250 was basically fail-to-recover swimming. I never did perk up.

"Mailing it in": Like phoning it in, only slower.

ElaineK
September 20th, 2012, 11:55 AM
Dang, that's a long swim.

Stroke.....Cumul.Subtr.Pace...........
750 flyy - 13:29 13:29 1:47.87 per 100
750 back - 25:36 12:07 1:36.93 per 100
750 brst - 40:06 14:30 1:56.00 per 100
750 free - 50:58 10:52 1:26.93 per 100

Total - 50:58

Fly & breast, 7 spl; back 13 spl; free 15 spl. I might have done an extra 50 breast. There was not much point to swimming anything after the first 500 fly; I was just mailing it in.

But it's done!

:applaud: :cheerleader: Awesome, Swimosaur! Congratulations!!

ande
September 25th, 2012, 04:02 PM
3000 IM Postal Challenge
Your mission, should you choose to accept it: swim the 3000 yard postal event (https://www.clubassistant.com/club/meet_information.cfm?c=1287&smid=3918) as an IM and report your results here.
I went 41:23 this morning in a drag suit with no special preparation and no coffee. Is that a good time? I have no idea. :dunno:

EWWWW GROSS, I'm out.

Key RULE:
"All strokes and turns must be legal."
any one armed fly or one hand touches on breast or fly automatically, DQ the swimmer. Along with extra freestyle strokes on backstroke.

That Guy
September 25th, 2012, 05:14 PM
EWWWW GROSS, I'm out.

Key RULE:
"All strokes and turns must be legal."
any one armed fly or one hand touches on breast or fly automatically, DQ the swimmer. Along with extra freestyle strokes on backstroke.

My swim was legal. :angel:

I kinda want to do a 6000 IM now for the other postal swim

ElaineK
September 25th, 2012, 06:29 PM
EWWWW GROSS, I'm out.

Key RULE:
"All strokes and turns must be legal."
any one armed fly or one hand touches on breast or fly automatically, DQ the swimmer. Along with extra freestyle strokes on backstroke.

Hey, Ande, if I can do a legal continuous 2,000 fly, That Guy(and a LOT of other people on the Forums) can EASILY do a legal 750 fly if they gave it a chance. I would gladly do this challenge if it weren't for the continue 750 breaststroke! :banana:

ElaineK
September 25th, 2012, 06:31 PM
My swim was legal. :angel:

I kinda want to do a 6000 IM now for the other postal swim

:bighug: Yes, That Guy, I know. :chug:

I would even do the 6000 IM for the other postal swim if it weren't for the darn 1500 breaststroke! :bitching:

jaadams1
September 25th, 2012, 07:22 PM
I kinda want to do a 6000 IM now for the other postal swim

Yep, we've lost him.

Swimosaur
September 25th, 2012, 09:00 PM
My swim was legal. :angel:

I kinda want to do a 6000 IM now for the other postal swim

Mine too!!! :banana:


Ande has a point. IMHO there is no reason to do a 3000 IM if you are training for the 18 pool events. There is no reason, ever, to swim a 750 fly.


At the same time, there is no reason, ever, to climb a mountain, or swim a 4 mile IM (http://openwaterpedia.com/index.php?title=Golden_Gate_Medley_Swim). So why do people do it? Because it's there! Yahoo!!!

That said, I am not too interested in swimming a 6000 IM. For me, the 3000 IM was mostly garbage yardage & I was wasted for a couple of days afterwards. If you can do it, more power to you!

That Guy
September 25th, 2012, 09:00 PM
Yep, we've lost him.

Wait, when did you ever--NEVER MIND

ElaineK
September 25th, 2012, 09:17 PM
Mine too!!! :banana:


Ande has a point. IMHO there is no reason to do a 3000 IM if you are training for the 18 pool events. There is no reason, ever, to swim a 750 fly.


At the same time, there is no reason, ever, to climb a mountain, or swim a 4 mile IM (http://openwaterpedia.com/index.php?title=Golden_Gate_Medley_Swim). So why do people do it? Because it's there! Yahoo!!!
That said, I am not too interested in swimming a 6000 IM. For me, the 3000 IM was mostly garbage yardage & I was wasted for a couple of days afterwards. If you can do it, more power to you!

Exactly. Sure, there is no reason to swim a 3,000 or 6,000 IM and I suppose it's garbage yardage, but, on the other hand, it is an endurance swim. That's a good thing, isn't it?

Does every swim have to have a purpose or reason? Sometimes, I think it's fine to do a swim just because; because you want to being the first "because" that comes to mind. But, for me, the fringe benefit of doing a swim like that is it builds confidence. Achieving a goal that I set for myself is always a good thing! :bliss:

That Guy
September 26th, 2012, 03:46 PM
In thinking about my recent 3000 IM, a possible upcoming 6000 IM, and the upcoming Brute Squad swim (300 fly + 100 back + 100 breast + 1750 free; Fitness Events and Challenges - U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums), at some point I remembered The Cumberland (500 free + 400 IM + 300 back + 200 breast + 100 fly; New Year's swims - U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums) and decided that since it's been almost 4 years, I definitely needed to swim it again. So this morning I posted a 19:40 (rough splits: 5:50, 11:23, 15:21, ???, 19:40) and then found in that New Year's thread that I was a little slower this morning that I was back then.

This challenge should be a bit more accessible than a 3000 or 6000 IM. What say you? :anim_coffee:

That Guy
December 11th, 2012, 05:54 PM
The 2013 Checkoff Challenge includes the 800 IM :bliss:

http://www.usms.org/files/sanction/20130101checkoY/other_document/tracking_sheet.pdf

orca1946
December 11th, 2012, 06:36 PM
A TRUE IM should be 750 of each. I'll try to think of that !!

jaadams1
December 11th, 2012, 08:03 PM
The 2013 Checkoff Challenge includes the 800 IM :bliss:

http://www.usms.org/files/sanction/20130101checkoY/other_document/tracking_sheet.pdf

Did you have anything to do with this? An absolute outrage!! :D

That Guy
December 11th, 2012, 09:42 PM
Did you have anything to do with this? An absolute outrage!! :D
I had nothing to do with it, but I will begrudgingly complete the challenge. :banana:RAAAAGE:banana:

rxleakem
December 12th, 2012, 08:42 AM
The 2013 Checkoff Challenge includes the 800 IM :bliss:

http://www.usms.org/files/sanction/20130101checkoY/other_document/tracking_sheet.pdf

I'm game, for some pain.
:thewave:

fatboy
June 24th, 2014, 05:24 PM
Bump

ElaineK
June 24th, 2014, 07:04 PM
I couldn't find this thread when I did an advanced search; however, fatboy did. Thanks! Evidently, I have posted on this thread in the past.

Two of my favorite non-core events are the 200 fly and 400 IM, and my goal is to improve my times for both of them. (At this point, I'm better at the 400 IM.)

What are your favorite sets to train for IM races? Laurie Hug has excellent workouts in the "Stroke and IM Workouts" thread, and this is one of my favorites (posted on January 12):

WORKOUT #2
W/U: 2-1-2-1-2 (200 dr/sw, 100k, 200p, 100k, 200 im dr/sw)
(800)

PS: 16 x 75:
1-4 on 1:15 or 1:25 or 1:35 or R10s: IM order
5-8 on 1:10 or 1:20 or 1:30 or R10s: 50 IM order/25 free
9-12 on 1:05 or 1:15 or 1:25 or R10s: 25 IM order/50 free
13-16 on 1:00 or 1:10 or 1:15 or R10s: free
(1200)

MS: 1 x 1000 (800 – skip last 200) done as:
200: alt 25 fast fly/25 easy free
200: alt 50 fast bk/50 easy free
200: 100 fast br/100 easy free

200: IM: 25 drill/25 fast
200: easy free

8 (or 6 – skip the last 2) x 100 on 1:30 or 1:45 or 2:00
Odds=Fast IMO or prime working the turns and finish
Evens=Easy free descending stroke count by 25
(1400-1800)

CD: 200-400 done as 50 ch dr/50 ch/50 fr dr/50 fr (2x)
Total: 3600-4200

Today, I swam it as 3,600 and then added Karl's 4x50 fly set (after the warm up) and some extra kicking (at the end before cool down) to round it out to 4,000 yards. This workout kicks my:mooning:, but I am determined kick it back! :cheerleader:

Please join in on this thread if you're like me and love ALL of the strokes! :banana:

mcnair
June 24th, 2014, 09:52 PM
I like the 4 x 50 fly set after the warm-up too. I can really tell how good a shape I'm in for fly by doing that set. Now that I'm thinking about useful sets that I haven't done in a while... 8 x 25 dolphins (bk or front) w/ fins on an close interval (:30 for me) is another great one for warm-ups or maybe beginning of cool-downs (nice core and leg conditioning among other things).

The last month I've let my fly go somewhat and have focused on 200 back; 20 x 50 on 1:00 at 200 pace is one of my favorite sets for that. Also, inspired by USRPT, I'm thinking about incorporating a 40 x 25 on :40 set for back... I imagine that would be great for your fly too.

ElaineK
June 24th, 2014, 10:20 PM
Also, inspired by USRPT, I'm thinking about incorporating a 40 x 25 on :40 set for back... I imagine that would be great for your fly too.

:drowning: :whiteflag:The only way I could imagine doing that as a fly set would be to cruise those 25's. Putting any speed into it would be brutal! (Funny, but that set sounds way more difficult than the continuous 2,000 fly I swam at a VERY cruise pace.) Why don't you give it a try and report back to us! ;)

mcnair
June 26th, 2014, 12:39 PM
:drowning: :whiteflag:The only way I could imagine doing that as a fly set would be to cruise those 25's. Putting any speed into it would be brutal! (Funny, but that set sounds way more difficult than the continuous 2,000 fly I swam at a VERY cruise pace.) Why don't you give it a try and report back to us! ;)

I agree; I think it's a much better set for back than for fly... I've done 20 x 25 on :45 with fly, holding between 100-200 pace. You might start there. I might do the 40 x 25 back later today.

ElaineK
June 26th, 2014, 01:44 PM
I agree; I think it's a much better set for back than for fly... I've done 20 x 25 on :45 with fly, holding between 100-200 pace. You might start there. I might do the 40 x 25 back later today.

I'll try it over the weekend. Tomorrow, I'm going to try to improve my times on the fly set Karl suggested over on The Butterfly Lane before continuing on with my Fast Friday sprint workout.

mcnair
June 26th, 2014, 05:04 PM
I'll try it over the weekend. Tomorrow, I'm going to try to improve my times on the fly set Karl suggested over on The Butterfly Lane before continuing on with my Fast Friday sprint workout.

I did a couple of those broken 200s today in my transition from warm-up to the main set (40 x 25 bk on :40). Went :47, :49, :49, :49 on the 4 x 50 fly on 1:00 (slower than I was a few months ago), then 100 bk recovery, then :38, :40, :40, :39 on 4 x 50 fr on :10r. But both add-ups are pretty good reflection of my SCY PRs in the 200 events (mid 3:10s in fly, high 2:30s in free).

The 40 x 25 bk set, was definitely goal pace for 200... no way I could do that many reps of 25 at 50 or 100 pace right now... I was right around :22 for most of the set (my short-term goal is to break 3:00 the next time I swim 200 back SCY).

ElaineK
June 27th, 2014, 05:50 PM
I agree; I think it's a much better set for back than for fly... I've done 20 x 25 on :45 with fly, holding between 100-200 pace. You might start there. I might do the 40 x 25 back later today.

I've given this some thought, and I have changed my mind- at least until I am more convinced this would be a good set.

Why do 20 or 40 in a row of the same stroke? The longest IM is 400, and the longest one-stroke event (other than free) is 200. Since I am training for the 400 IM, 200 fly, and 200 breaststroke, wouldn't it make more sense for me to do 20 x 25 on :45 holding 200 pace and swim it as 5 of each stroke? If I did 40 x 25, I would do 10 of each stroke.

If I did 20 or 40 of just fly, I think the negatives (repetitive stress of my shoulders and a reduction of speed would outweigh the positives. I just don't think I would be able to hold pace for that many reps. AND keep my stroke together. At 52 with a past history of repetitive stress injuries, not changing stroke could be an injury inducer. :eek:

ElaineK
June 28th, 2014, 01:56 PM
To follow up on yesterday's post, I did the following set today:
32x25 @ :45, 8 of each stroke. Although my fly's were steady at 200 pace, I was able to easily hold 100 pace (or slightly faster) for each of the other strokes. In addition, I was able to keep my stroke technique strong throughout the entire set.

Next time out, perhaps I should shorten the interval to :40. Although the set wasn't easy, it wasn't hard either. What are your thoughts on this? Did I get too much rest at an interval of :45 for it to be of benefit?

mcnair
June 29th, 2014, 02:41 PM
To follow up on yesterday's post, I did the following set today:
32x25 @ :45, 8 of each stroke. Although my fly's were steady at 200 pace, I was able to easily hold 100 pace (or slightly faster) for each of the other strokes. In addition, I was able to keep my stroke technique strong throughout the entire set.

Next time out, perhaps I should shorten the interval to :40. Although the set wasn't easy, it wasn't hard either. What are your thoughts on this? Did I get too much rest at an interval of :45 for it to be of benefit?

That sounds like a good set for IM; I mentioned the 40 x 25 set for one stroke b/c I know you mentioned swimming the 200s and I think that, applying some of the ultra-short race-pace training principles, 25 is a better distance to do at 200 pace for a long set. When I try to do long sets of 50s I can't hold 200 pace unless the rest interval increases a lot... and then that defeats the idea of ultra-short (i.e., get used to the race-pace by doing lots of shorter intervals with shorter rests; a principle most of us already apply when training for 1500+... lots of 100s at pace, w/ short rest).

My training partners and I did a lot of training for the 400 IM over the last year and one of our staple sets became 80 x 25 on :45 IMO; i.e., twenty 25s on each stroke, and we held paces between 100 and 200-goal for most of the set. At :45, each stroke takes 15 minutes... then we would do a 100 recovery swim and start the next stroke on the next :00. This was our Sunday afternoon workout for several months and we saw our 4IM times drop a lot! I was swimming around 7:00 last fall and swam a 6:37 in March, and the only regular feature of my training regimen last spring was that set of 25s (I had a fairly erratic winter-spring w/ illness and life transitions).

I know they say USRPT doesn't work the same for IM as for individual strokes, but I think the fatigue you learn to work through in that long set really helps to simulate meet situations, where we struggle to hold form on breast and free, for example, after going out hard in fly and back. Those frees at the end of the set are not easy (we often drop the interval down to :40 or even :30), but you can hold form and pace for 25 (if we had to turn and finish a 50, the form would fall apart really quickly).

ElaineK
June 29th, 2014, 04:54 PM
That sounds like a good set for IM; I mentioned the 40 x 25 set for one stroke b/c I know you mentioned swimming the 200s and I think that, applying some of the ultra-short race-pace training principles, 25 is a better distance to do at 200 pace for a long set. When I try to do long sets of 50s I can't hold 200 pace unless the rest interval increases a lot... and then that defeats the idea of ultra-short (i.e., get used to the race-pace by doing lots of shorter intervals with shorter rests; a principle most of us already apply when training for 1500+... lots of 100s at pace, w/ short rest).

My training partners and I did a lot of training for the 400 IM over the last year and one of our staple sets became 80 x 25 on :45 IMO; i.e., twenty 25s on each stroke, and we held paces between 100 and 200-goal for most of the set. At :45, each stroke takes 15 minutes... then we would do a 100 recovery swim and start the next stroke on the next :00. This was our Sunday afternoon workout for several months and we saw our 4IM times drop a lot! I was swimming around 7:00 last fall and swam a 6:37 in March, and the only regular feature of my training regimen last spring was that set of 25s (I had a fairly erratic winter-spring w/ illness and life transitions).

I know they say USRPT doesn't work the same for IM as for individual strokes, but I think the fatigue you learn to work through in that long set really helps to simulate meet situations, where we struggle to hold form on breast and free, for example, after going out hard in fly and back. Those frees at the end of the set are not easy (we often drop the interval down to :40 or even :30), but you can hold form and pace for 25 (if we had to turn and finish a 50, the form would fall apart really quickly).

Thanks for the feedback! I would be curious to see how I hold up for 80 (rather than the 32 I swam) x 25. I'll give it a try and see what happens. Since I will be racing 400 IM AND 200's of fly and breast, I'm trying to train for all of them.

fatboy
June 30th, 2014, 11:31 AM
I've given this some thought, and I have changed my mind- at least until I am more convinced this would be a good set.

Why do 20 or 40 in a row of the same stroke? The longest IM is 400, and the longest one-stroke event (other than free) is 200. Since I am training for the 400 IM, 200 fly, and 200 breaststroke, wouldn't it make more sense for me to do 20 x 25 on :45 holding 200 pace and swim it as 5 of each stroke? If I did 40 x 25, I would do 10 of each stroke.

If I did 20 or 40 of just fly, I think the negatives (repetitive stress of my shoulders and a reduction of speed would outweigh the positives. I just don't think I would be able to hold pace for that many reps. AND keep my stroke together. At 52 with a past history of repetitive stress injuries, not changing stroke could be an injury inducer. :eek:

This is an interesting question. You started me thinking about it. For fly and back I would think you can train for a 200. For breaststroke, you have already swum 200, so you really need to train for a 300. For free, you start at 300 so you should train for at least a 400. Since fly, back and breast are less efficient than free you will probably be more fatigued at the 300 of the 400im than at 300 of 400 free. Makes me think that you should probably train for 500 free.

I'd like to hear others chime in. Anyone else have thoughts?

I set that I liked when training for 200 or 400 IM was
2 x (8 x 50 swum as 50 fly,25 fly/25bk, 50 back, 25 bk/25 br, 50 br, 25 br/25 fr, 50 free, 25 fr/25 fly)
You get to practice all the turns in this set.

ElaineK
June 30th, 2014, 01:31 PM
This is an interesting question. You started me thinking about it. For fly and back I would think you can train for a 200. For breaststroke, you have already swum 200, so you really need to train for a 300. For free, you start at 300 so you should train for at least a 400. Since fly, back and breast are less efficient than free you will probably be more fatigued at the 300 of the 400im than at 300 of 400 free. Makes me think that you should probably train for 500 free.

I'd like to hear others chime in. Anyone else have thoughts?

I set that I liked when training for 200 or 400 IM was
2 x (8 x 50 swum as 50 fly,25 fly/25bk, 50 back, 25 bk/25 br, 50 br, 25 br/25 fr, 50 free, 25 fr/25 fly)
You get to practice all the turns in this set.

Hmmm, you lost me on that first paragraph. I'm not following you. :confused: BUT, I do like your set for training IM. :agree: How much rest in between 50's?

fatboy
June 30th, 2014, 05:21 PM
Elaine - my thought is that for a 400 IM you swim 100 fly - but you can't take it out at your 100 fly pace, so it will usually be at your 200 fly pace. For back you have already swum 100 fly, so you are already too tired to swim your 100 back pace, but you can probably swim your 200 back pace. So for fly and back you can train the same as you do for a 200 of each stroke. By the time you get to breaststroke you have already swum 200 yards (or meters). So you are about as tired as you are after a 200 breaststroke - so IMHO you need to train as if you were going to swim a 300 breaststroke. By the time you get to the free style you already have 300 yds in. You are probably more fatigued than if you swam 300 free since the other stroke are not as efficient. So you need to train for 500 free not just 400 free. Hope that makes sense.

The amount of rest really depends on the swimmer and your focus for the workout that day. 15-20 seconds rest between 50s maybe for the 400 IM to build endurance. Less rest if you can still hold your desired pace.

You might want to go longer rest sometimes to work on speed. I am not a coach and definitely not a fast swimmer so I don't really know what would work for you. I just go with rule of thumb that shorter rest between repeats builds endurance , longer rest lets you swim faster so helps build speed. That's a pretty broad generalization, so there are many people on the forum here that can help you more with the amount of rest. I just like the set because you practice all the turns and I don't get bored in the middle.

ElaineK
June 30th, 2014, 05:40 PM
Elaine - my thought is that for a 400 IM you swim 100 fly - but you can't take it out at your 100 fly pace, so it will usually be at your 200 fly pace. For back you have already swum 100 fly, so you are already too tired to swim your 100 back pace, but you can probably swim your 200 back pace. So for fly and back you can train the same as you do for a 200 of each stroke. By the time you get to breaststroke you have already swum 200 yards (or meters). So you are about as tired as you are after a 200 breaststroke - so IMHO you need to train as if you were going to swim a 300 breaststroke. By the time you get to the free style you already have 300 yds in. You are probably more fatigued than if you swam 300 free since the other stroke are not as efficient. So you need to train for 500 free not just 400 free. Hope that makes sense.

The amount of rest really depends on the swimmer and your focus for the workout that day. 15-20 seconds rest between 50s maybe for the 400 IM to build endurance. Less rest if you can still hold your desired pace.

You might want to go longer rest sometimes to work on speed. I am not a coach and definitely not a fast swimmer so I don't really know what would work for you. I just go with rule of thumb that shorter rest between repeats builds endurance , longer rest lets you swim faster so helps build speed. That's a pretty broad generalization, so there are many people on the forum here that can help you more with the amount of rest. I just like the set because you practice all the turns and I don't get bored in the middle.

:doh:Now it makes sense! Thanks for clarifying that for me. :D

fatboy
July 9th, 2014, 05:46 PM
Elaine - Here's an article that explains what I was trying to say quite a bit better than I did. It also has a ssample workout. I think you will like it
http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/ASCAEducation/39742.asp?q=Use-This-Workout-To-Fix-Your-IM!

ElaineK
July 9th, 2014, 05:52 PM
Elaine - Here's an article that explains what I was trying to say quite a bit better than I did. It also has a ssample workout. I think you will like it
http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/ASCAEducation/39742.asp?q=Use-This-Workout-To-Fix-Your-IM!

That's excellent- thanks! :applaud: Any idea how I could view and save that workout into something I could read at one glance? It would be nice to print out; however, copying it into Word was a jumbled mess! :dunno:\

Never mind. I'm getting it to work in Word by widening the columns...

ElaineK
July 10th, 2014, 01:32 PM
Elaine - Here's an article that explains what I was trying to say quite a bit better than I did. It also has a ssample workout. I think you will like it
http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/ASCAEducation/39742.asp?q=Use-This-Workout-To-Fix-Your-IM!

I did this workout today; however, I (obviously!) need to make adjustments in the intervals in order to give my best efforts when needed. Getting just a few seconds at times would have left me :whiteflag:.

Question: How much rest should I allow myself on these intervals? I aimed for 10 seconds most of the time; however, I will admit at times I allowed 15 or 20 to keep from :drowning:.

fatboy
July 10th, 2014, 06:48 PM
Good question. I am not a coach so take my advice with a grain or a shaker of salt.

The workout was from Swimming World and the coach was a college coach. So I would expect these intervals are set for his college swimmers. They should be close to 1:00 per 100 in fly and back, faster for free, and close to that for breast. IF that is a valid guess, then the interval times seem to be about 1:1 swim:rest ratio on the 25's - 15sec swim/ 15 sec rest = 30 sec interval. I would guess you would want 15-20 secs rest on the 25's. The article mention working on speed for fly and back. Working on speed usually means getting a little more rest in the interval.

ElaineK
July 10th, 2014, 08:50 PM
Good question. I am not a coach so take my advice with a grain or a shaker of salt.

The workout was from Swimming World and the coach was a college coach. So I would expect these intervals are set for his college swimmers. They should be close to 1:00 per 100 in fly and back, faster for free, and close to that for breast. IF that is a valid guess, then the interval times seem to be about 1:1 swim:rest ratio on the 25's - 15sec swim/ 15 sec rest = 30 sec interval. I would guess you would want 15-20 secs rest on the 25's. The article mention working on speed for fly and back. Working on speed usually means getting a little more rest in the interval.

Well, grain or shaker, it makes sense to me. Ten seconds of rest wasn't allowing me to swim at my "best effort" pace, so I will revise the intervals accordingly. Thanks!