PDA

View Full Version : The Middle Distance Lane



ande
April 26th, 2010, 09:53 PM
You're not a sprinter and you're not a pure distance swimmer. Your 50's & 1500's aren't as great as your 200's, 400's, & 500's. Your 100's aren't shabby. Let the D Divas take those 800's, 1000's, 1500's & 1650's. You're caught in the middle. You've got OK speed, but you can do those longer sets that make pure sprinters ill. You're well conditioned and tend to do well with back to back events. You're in great company, Michael Phelps and Ryan Lochte are middle distance swimmers who have excellent 100's but not so great 50's. Man you can train.
This is the middle distance lane. Don't get lapped.


the breastroke lane


The Middle Distance Lane


The Backstroke Lane


The Butterfly Lane


The SDK Lane


The Taper Lane


The Distance Lane


The IM Lane


The Sprint Free Lane


The Pool Deck

That Guy
April 26th, 2010, 10:23 PM
So how many other middle distancers besides me wish there were 400 events for each stroke and a 600 or 800 IM? Yes, even a 400 fly... it would probably be my best chance at a #1 ranking, though I have no idea how I'd complete it in LCM.

tjrpatt
April 26th, 2010, 10:29 PM
So how many other middle distancers besides me wish there were 400 events for each stroke and a 600 or 800 IM? Yes, even a 400 fly... it would probably be my best chance at a #1 ranking, though I have no idea how I'd complete it in LCM.

The day that there is a 800 IM would be happy day for me. I think that I could survive it though. I just wish that they would have the 800 medley relay because I would always have an automatic spot in it.

That Guy
April 26th, 2010, 10:43 PM
You're not a sprinter and you're not a pure distance swimmer. Your 50's & 1500's aren't as great as your 200's, 400's, & 500's. Your 100's aren't shabby. Let the D Divas take those 800's, 1000's, 1500's & 1650's. You're caught in the middle. You've got OK speed, but you can do those longer sets that make pure sprinters ill. You're well conditioned and tend to do well with back to back events. Man you can train.

Geez, looking at that description again, it's freaky-accurate. Here's the complete list of events that I've ever gotten Top-10 in: 100 fly, 200 back, 200 fly, 400 free, 400 IM. There have been years where I looked at the #10 times in some of the distance events and said, "hmmm, I could have beaten that time" but of course I didn't and the distance guys are welcome to do it instead.

Calvin S
April 26th, 2010, 11:09 PM
this was my lane in college. although i was in a group known as the "upper mid-distance" lane. we swam in the lane adjacent to the distance group, and did a lot of the same (or VERY VERY similar) sets as the distance group, but without the emphasis on 1000/1650 training, and more an emphasis on the 200/500. however, we ended up playing host to most of the fastest sprinters on our team too (with a few minor exceptions). when the distance group was shooting for 10k a practice, we were somewhere in the neighborhood of 8.5-9.5k, while the actual "mid-distance group" would be somewhere 1-1.5k behind us.

Chris Stevenson
April 27th, 2010, 11:05 AM
You're not a lazy sprinter and you're not a crazy distance swimmer.

I corrected that for you.


So how many other middle distancers besides me wish there were 400 events for each stroke and a 600 or 800 IM?

That would be great. One of the reasons I am picking up the 400 IM, despite my weak breaststroke, is because I realize that I mostly like to train non-free and the 400 IM was the only option above 200 for strokes.


There have been years where I looked at the #10 times in some of the distance events and said, "hmmm, I could have beaten that time" but of course I didn't and the distance guys are welcome to do it instead.

Part of that -- and this is my opinion only -- is that I think TT in the distance events are a little weaker than in the sprints. Not the top spots, those guys are pretty amazing; I'm talking about spots 5-10. Again, just my opinion (and it is often true of the 200 fly and 400 IM too; many masters avoid those, no idea why.:))


this was my lane in college. although i was in a group known as the "upper mid-distance" lane. we swam in the lane adjacent to the distance group, and did a lot of the same (or VERY VERY similar) sets as the distance group,

Unfortunately we didn't have a mid-D group in college: we had the sprinters, the distance guys, and one group for each stroke. Early on I swam almost exclusively with the distance guys, until I noted with alarm that the coach started regularly putting me in distance events in meets. Then I switched to mostly train with the stroke groups with an occasional visit to the D-guys if I wanted to pound out some yardage.

I think one main difference between a distance and mid-distance set is the amount of rest. Distance guys don't mind doing sets with very little rest, while I don't mind doing things repeats of 200-500s in practice, I like to have a decent recovery time between reps.

ande
April 27th, 2010, 11:42 AM
Chris,

that's a somewhat reasonable correction.
though sprinters work in their own way.

We now have all the lanes eddie offers his swimmers.
distance fr, middle distance fr, sprint fr, fly, back, breast, IM, & Taper

I'm curious to see which one will be most active, right now it looks like the breastrokers have a significant lead.
I prefer to live on taper time.

Ande




Originally Posted by ande
You're not a lazy sprinter and you're not a crazy distance swimmer.
I corrected that for you.

Chris Stevenson
April 27th, 2010, 11:51 AM
that's a somewhat reasonable correction.
though sprinters work in their own way.

No, it isn't reasonable at all, I was just making a joke. I don't think sprinters are lazy (well, no lazier than the average bear).

knelson
April 27th, 2010, 12:48 PM
Part of that -- and this is my opinion only -- is that I think TT in the distance events are a little weaker than in the sprints.

I don't think there is any question at all about that. Way more people swim the shorter events, and thus the TT times are stronger. I noticed there are 81 entries in the men's 40-44 100 IM in Atlanta. There are eight entered in the same age group for the 1650 free. Now, part of that is that distance day is on Thursday, but I doubt there'd be a whole lot more takers if Sunday were distance day!

swimshark
April 27th, 2010, 02:48 PM
The way I look at it is that I don't have speed, but I can go for a long time at the speed I have :)

That Guy
May 6th, 2010, 10:39 PM
Check out this article about recent Australian Masters meets.

http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/24122.asp

There's mention of an 800m IM, and for the sprinters, there's 25m stroke events and 4x25m relays. I wonder if there were 400m stroke events as well.

Swimosaur
May 7th, 2010, 09:33 AM
There's mention of an 800m IM, and for the sprinters, there's 25m stroke events and 4x25m relays. I wonder if there were 400m stroke events as well.

It's even better ...

Australian Masters Swimming (http://www.portal.aussi.org.au/) -- Records (http://www.portal.aussi.org.au/records/records.php?js=on)

You can search for Mens's & Women's records, any age group, SCM or LCM. Records are kept in the following events. (Obviously, 25 events and 100 IM are SCM only). No 1500 fly, alas.

25m Freestyle
50m Freestyle
100m Freestyle
200m Freestyle
400m Freestyle
800m Freestyle
1500m Freestyle

25m Backstroke
50m Backstroke
100m Backstroke
200m Backstroke
400m Backstroke
800m Backstroke
1500m Backstroke

25m Breaststroke
50m Breaststroke
100m Breaststroke
200m Breaststroke
400m Breaststroke
800m Breaststroke
1500m Breaststroke

25m Butterfly
50m Butterfly
100m Butterfly
200m Butterfly
400m Butterfly
800m Butterfly

100m Individual Medley
200m Individual Medley
400m Individual Medley
800m Individual Medley

That Guy
May 7th, 2010, 09:48 AM
I had heard of these non-standard records being kept by the Australian Masters, but I didn't know whether those events were regularly contested. For instance, in USMS we keep records for the 800 free relay, but in my experience it is rarely contested outside Oregon.

Swimosaur
May 7th, 2010, 10:09 AM
I had heard of these non-standard records being kept by the Australian Masters, but I didn't know whether those events were regularly contested ...

Hard to say. On the one hand, casually looking at a few of the 2009 meets (http://www.portal.aussi.org.au/meets/index.php?filter=*&scope=&state=---&year=2009&filter=*&Show=Show&js=on), it's clear that not every event is contested in every meet. On the other, many of the records in the longer stroke events were set in 2009, so the events were contested somewhere.

Current National Records: Female - 50-54 - LC (http://www.portal.aussi.org.au/records/records.php?PHPSESSID=1bc74c356007ef13e694bfd92275 c5bf&bg=1&scope=&state=---&hist=C&best=R&type=0&course=LC&gender=F&group=50-54&show=Display&dist=All&stroke=All&holder=&filter=*&js=on)
400m Backstroke JENNY WHITELEY NRY 12.12.2009 6:08.03 AUBURN
800m Backstroke JENNY WHITELEY NRY 21.02.2009 12:55.59 CESSNOCK
1500m Backstroke JENNY WHITELEY NRY21.02.2009 24:16.71 CESSNOCK
800m Breaststroke JENNY WHITELEY NRY 12.12.2009 13:28.83 AUBURN
1500m Breaststroke JENNY WHITELEY NRY 12.12.2009 25:44.58 AUBURN

Cessnock Results (http://www.portal.aussi.org.au/meets/index.php?EventId=151594&filter=*&split=no&scope=&js=on)

Auburn Results (http://www.portal.aussi.org.au/meets/index.php?EventId=151751&filter=*&split=no&scope=&js=on)

Karl_S
May 7th, 2010, 04:42 PM
1500 M breaststroke!? I'm starting to question the sanity of these Aussies! The 400 back might be a worthy challenge.

tjrpatt
May 7th, 2010, 04:46 PM
800 IM record. I could totally do the 30-34 record in AUS. We need those records in this country so I can finally get a National Record.

couldbebetterfly
May 12th, 2010, 12:07 AM
Wow - I'm new here - been lurking for a bit and I used to train with one of the 800 IM record holders:bow:. I thought a 400 IM was madness...and still do. OK back to lurk until I do some more serious swimming :bolt:

Swimosaur
May 12th, 2010, 10:39 PM
800 IM record. I could totally do the 30-34 record in AUS. We need those records in this country so I can finally get a National Record.

Australian Rules Swimming

Want an unofficial national record? Pick an Aussie event, swim it, and post the time.

SCM & LCM: 400-800-1500 back & breast; 400-800 fly; 800 IM

And I suppose us yanks should add,

SCY: 500-1000-1650 back & breast; 500-1000 fly; 800 IM

I don't think I'll join you in an 800 IM but I could totally see dedicating a workout this summer to a 1500 LCM backstroke. I'm not quick enough to challenge their record, but it would still be a fun swim.


1500 M breaststroke!? I'm starting to question the sanity of these Aussies! The 400 back might be a worthy challenge.

More Aussie Madness

I was curious to see if they have a rankings page, and indeed they do, here (http://www.portal.aussi.org.au/ranking/index.php?js=on). Although apparently they don't keep national records in these events, in addition to the FINA events and the Aussie events above, I found times in the rankings for,

free: 3000m - 5000m - 30min - 45min - 60min
back: 3000m - 5000m - 30min - 45min - 60min
breast: 3000m - 5000m - 30min - 45min - 60min

Needless to say, the 5000 LCM backstroke is not a popular event. As far as I can tell, only one person (http://www.portal.aussi.org.au/ranking/ranking.php?type=0&display=best&gender=Female&course=LC&dist=5000m&stroke=Backstroke&group=Open&year=2009&state=All&clubcode=*&filter=0&view=0&finaonly=0&show=Display&js=on) swam it in 2009.

More Aussie Awesomeness

Ok, I had to look. How old is the oldest Aussie national record holder in the 800 fly? Take a guess, then behold this bit of Aussie Awesomeness (http://www.portal.aussi.org.au/records/records.php?PHPSESSID=3a06755a12923275a06dcff50f6e bc09&bg=1&scope=&state=---&hist=C&best=R&type=0&course=LC&gender=F&group=80-84&show=Display&dist=All&stroke=All&holder=&filter=*&js=on):

Current National Records: Female - 80-84 - LC

400m Backstroke MYRTLE WRIGHT WOP 17.09.1989 9:18.92 PERTH
800m Backstroke ANN TODD QTW 29.07.2006 23:36.76 BANORA POINT, NSW
1500m Backstroke OPAL EDDY NET 18.02.2006 48:00.58 CESSNOCK

400m Breaststroke BARBARA VICKERS NML 10.11.2006 10:20.95 GOLD COAST
800m Breaststroke JUSTINE BAMFORD THB 24.11.2007 22:39.65 HOBART
1500m Breaststroke JUSTINE BAMFORD THB 24.11.2007 42:44.06 HOBART

400m Butterfly THELMA BRYAN QCN 30.01.2010 12:01.39 MAREEBA MEMORIAL
800m Butterfly NORMA RUDOLPH QSC 02.08.2003 27:44.98 BANORA POINT

800m IM MARJORIE CHIPPERFIELD QTW 19.10.2003 23:27.66 IPSWICH

Awesome!

ande
August 24th, 2010, 10:33 AM
Since we're at the beginning of a new season
I thought I'd bump all the lanes to see which one is winning

couldbebetterfly
August 24th, 2010, 11:39 PM
Since we're at the beginning of a new season


Oh the season has started already? I'm still on my break until small child goes to pre-school, but think I'm headed for the middle distance lane once I get back in the water. I checked out the fly lane earlier and they swim scary amounts of fly, so am sure I'll be happier here.

So what is the difference between 500 SCY and 400 SCM? .....please don't say 4 lengths or 60 yards - is it a truly different race?

That Guy
August 25th, 2010, 12:08 AM
I checked out the fly lane earlier and they swim scary amounts of fly, so am sure I'll be happier here.

Sorry about that, that's my fault (not that I'm going to change anything)... as knelson noted there, you can train for a short course 200 fly with nothing more than 25's... :chillpill:


So what is the difference between 500 SCY and 400 SCM? .....please don't say 4 lengths or 60 yards - is it a truly different race?

Yes, it's a different race. I prefer 400 SCM free to 500 SCY free. And I prefer the 400 LCM to the 400 SCM. And prefer 400 OW over 400 LCM. You get the idea. More time focusing on stroke technique, less time spent turning.

Muppet
August 25th, 2010, 02:09 AM
So what is the difference between 500 SCY and 400 SCM? .....please don't say 4 lengths or 60 yards - is it a truly different race?

Good question - the 4/4/5 is one of my favorites, and yes they are different, but I'm not sure I can really explain the difference.

Here is an interesting comparison between by fast 400scm time last december and my fastest 500 time this spring:

conversions in []
400 (4:29.49) [5:08.03]: 104.77 [58.03]; 109.09 [101.9]; 108.24 [101.14]; 107.39 [100.38]
500 (5:02.67) [4:24.80]: 56.14 [102.66]; 102.17 [109.39]; 102.60 [109.87]; 102.27 [109.5]; 59.49 [106.4]

ElaineK
August 25th, 2010, 05:51 PM
:chillpill:


I see you found the new "Smilie" (even though it's missing a face...)!
:D

couldbebetterfly
August 25th, 2010, 10:20 PM
conversions in []
400 (4:29.49) [5:08.03]: 104.77 [58.03]; 109.09 [101.9]; 108.24 [101.14]; 107.39 [100.38]
500 (5:02.67) [4:24.80]: 56.14 [102.66]; 102.17 [109.39]; 102.60 [109.87]; 102.27 [109.5]; 59.49 [106.4]


:bow:

That's made me feel slow - I found some old results online (when I was looking for other stuff) from a 400 LCM I swam in '02 - 5.20, but I have gone 5.15 SCM

But yes - very interesting comparison. I guess I'll work up to some race-pace 500s once I'm back in routine and see how it all feels. I always felt that 400SCM was my best free event, but I would always place better in the 800 due to lack of entrants!

Then I just need to find a meet to try it out at. If not I'll be back on the fly to mix things up a bit.......but only 25s at a time, of course

couldbebetterfly
October 19th, 2010, 10:29 PM
I'm feeling a bit lonely here, but thought I'd throw this out anyway....

I've been working on my turns and SDKs and have noticed that I come out of my turn rotated to the left, do 3 SDKs on my side, a fourth that kind of straightens me up, then I get into my stroke. Now I come out with left hand over right and my right arm pulls first - ie the one higher in the water. (I still feel slightly rotated when I first pull back)

I have sometimes pulled back with left hand first, and I don't seem to get as strong a pull, plus I have to move my left hand around my right hand as even if I know I'm going to try a left hand pull, the left hand still ends up on top.

I'm just curious as to what the rest of you do? - Or if you even think about it?

qbrain
October 22nd, 2010, 01:02 PM
I'm just curious as to what the rest of you do? - Or if you even think about it?

It is thoughtless at this point, but here is what I do. Coming out of a turn, my dominate side is down, with my dominate hand in the bottom position of the stream line. The dominate hand takes the first pull off the wall which completes the rotation.

That is also what you want to do. Coming off the wall you are going faster than you can swim, and you want to maintain that speed as long as possible. Pulling with the dominate hand allows you to maintain that speed longer and pulling with the dominate side down with the dominate hand is a natural stroke.

It sounds like your weak side is down off the turn, but you pull with the dominate hand. Try rotating the other way off the turn and leaving everything else the same. The rotation will be awkward, but the pull should feel better. If that is true, just work on your new turning side and eventually it will become comfortable.

ande
December 1st, 2010, 05:26 AM
thought I'd bump all the lanes to the front page to encourage folks to comment in their lanes

Swimosaur
December 27th, 2010, 04:24 PM
Counting SCM 400 Free

Last month I swam a 400 SCM free. The event was seeded fast-to-slow; I was in the first heat. There were 10 lanes in the pool. As we were mounting the blocks, I saw our 10 counters parade onto the bulkhead, carrying their lap counters. Take your marks, and away we go.

I am pretty good at counting, so I asked my buddy to dunk only laps 11, 13, and 15. I was pretty sure I had counted correctly, so I was a little surprised at the end of lap 11 -- no counter in the pool. Ok, maybe I am off, or maybe he just forgot.

End of lap 13 -- still no counter. Something's wrong. Hope my buddy didn't have a heart attack from all the excitement. I will have to count it myself. Hope I did it right! The guy in the next lane is ahead of me, so I'll stop when he does. I hope he's right too! End of lap 15, still no counter, in the middle of the sprint -- I REALLY hope I'm right! I don't have another 50 left in me after this one!

After the race, I asked my buddy what happened. He said an official had marched onto the bulkhead, after the race had already started, and declared it was illegal to count any distance less than 500 yards. So all the counters left, certainly to my surprise, and presumably to the surprise of the other 9 swimmers in the pool.

This rule is news to me. This is the 3rd 400 SCM free I've done, and for the other two (including at this same meet last year), everyone had counters, no problem.

I have two questions:

1. Is this really a rule? Are you allowed to have counters in a 400 SCM freestyle? How about 400 LCM? For safety's sake I like having a counter, but not having one won't be a problem. I'd just like to know the what rule is.

2. Um ... ahem ... what??? If the official was determined to make this call, then it would have been far better to do so before the race started, and then to make sure all swimmers understood that there would be no counters. As it was, all 10 swimmers had arranged to have a counter, so clearly all 10 swimmers thought that having a counter was legal and appropriate. Pulling the counters off the bulkhead after the race had already started is tantamount to changing the rules in the middle of the race :eek: as least as far as the swimmers were concerned. What sayest thou?

Extra for experts -- I have also been told that it's not legal to have a counter dunk some of the laps -- like 11, 13, and 15 only -- it must be all or none. Others have said this is an NCAA rule but not masters. Personally, I don't know. Any clues are welcome. Thanks!

thewookiee
December 27th, 2010, 04:52 PM
[After the race, I asked my buddy what happened. He said an official had marched onto the bulkhead, after the race had already started, and declared it was illegal to count any distance less than 500 yards. So all the counters left, certainly to my surprise, and presumably to the surprise of the other 9 swimmers in the pool.

This rule is news to me. This is the 3rd 400 SCM free I've done, and for the other two (including at this same meet last year), everyone had counters, no problem.



The official was wrong. This is from the USMS rule book. Last time I checked, the 400 scm free was 16 lengths.


"102.10.6 Counters
A A swimmer in any individual event of 16 lengths or more, except the
individual medley, may appoint one counter to call lengths or indicate
lengths by visual sign"

want2beafish
December 27th, 2010, 05:07 PM
Counting SCM 400 Free

Last month I swam a 400 SCM free. The event was seeded fast-to-slow; I was in the first heat. There were 10 lanes in the pool. As we were mounting the blocks, I saw our 10 counters parade onto the bulkhead, carrying their lap counters. Take your marks, and away we go.

I am pretty good at counting, so I asked my buddy to dunk only laps 11, 13, and 15. I was pretty sure I had counted correctly, so I was a little surprised at the end of lap 11 -- no counter in the pool. Ok, maybe I am off, or maybe he just forgot.

End of lap 13 -- still no counter. Something's wrong. Hope my buddy didn't have a heart attack from all the excitement. I will have to count it myself. Hope I did it right! The guy in the next lane is ahead of me, so I'll stop when he does. I hope he's right too! End of lap 15, still no counter, in the middle of the sprint -- I REALLY hope I'm right! I don't have another 50 left in me after this one!

After the race, I asked my buddy what happened. He said an official had marched onto the bulkhead, after the race had already started, and declared it was illegal to count any distance less than 500 yards. So all the counters left, certainly to my surprise, and presumably to the surprise of the other 9 swimmers in the pool.

This rule is news to me. This is the 3rd 400 SCM free I've done, and for the other two (including at this same meet last year), everyone had counters, no problem.!


The official was wrong. This is from the USMS rule book. Last time I checked, the 400 scm free was 16 lengths.


"102.10.6 Counters
A A swimmer in any individual event of 16 lengths or more, except the
individual medley, may appoint one counter to call lengths or indicate
lengths by visual sign"

Was that at the St. Nick's meet? I remember you were there, and I was in the same heat as you were for the 400 free. I had just about the same reaction as you -- I really don't need a counter for 16 lengths, but I was expecting one as I like to double check where I am from time to time. It did throw me off a bit, and I was really ticked off at my husband for a minute or two (or five). :) I think that officials are used to the 400 LCM, which doesn't allow counters, and aren't used to officiating SCM meets. I'm just glad I was tired by then and having a mediocre race; if I had been doing well I wouldn't have been happy about the situation!

Swimosaur
December 27th, 2010, 08:32 PM
Was that at the St. Nick's meet? I remember you were there, and I was in the same heat as you were for the 400 free.

Yes, it was at the St. Nick's meet, and I was in the next lane. Good to see you again! Unfortunately the 400 was the last event of the day, so I was also kinda sluggish in that race. But I did have a PB earlier in the day!

Except for the curious incident with the counters, the St. Nick's meet was a very good meet -- well done, well run, and lots of fun. I would recommend it to anyone. If they have it again next year, I will certainly go!

Chris Stevenson
December 27th, 2010, 11:01 PM
I seem to vaguely recall that USA-S passed a rule amendment that said that counters are NOT required for the 400, and that the Rule Committee recommended against USMS adopting it. But it isn't clear from the minutes and my memory of that is hazy:

http://www.usms.org/admin/minutes/rules-2010-9-18-2.pdf

Since most of the officials at USMS meets are usually USA-S officials, it may be that the rules changed for one and not the other and they didn't know that. If you really want to know, I'd suggest emailing either Charlie Cockrell (http://www.usms.org/admin/email.php?To=Charlie+Cockrell&a=Officials) (chair of the Officials Committee) or Kathy Casey (http://www.usms.org/admin/email.php?To=Kathrine+Casey&a=Rules) (chair of the Rules Committee).

couldbebetterfly
December 27th, 2010, 11:16 PM
This thread got me thinking and I may as well ask my question(s) now....

I have been used to swimming SCM in the UK, and sometimes we got a counter on the 400, sometimes not. And it was one of the timekeepers who did the counting with those plastic flip-over thingys. So for the 800, 1500 and 400 (when there was a counter), they would reach over and blow a whistle down your ear as you turned when you had 2 lengths to go.

Reading this, I guess things are a bit different here - would I need to provide my own counter if I entered a 500 or 1000 yd ? ( I usually count fine, but its nice to know). And is a whistle allowed, or would the counter need to dunk the board in the pool? And are the counting boards provided by the meet?

Thanks :blush:

Swimosaur
December 28th, 2010, 12:18 AM
... would I need to provide my own counter if I entered a 500 or 1000 yd ? ... is a whistle allowed ... And are the counting boards provided by the meet?

I am obviously not the right guy to consult for the officially official interpretation of the rules, but in all the meets I've been to so far, (a) the swimmer is responsible for recruiting his or her own counter (this led to a desperate scramble for me just before the 1000 at last spring's nationals); (b) the meet officials ring a bell when the FIRST swimmer has two laps to go (but not for any of the other swimmers); (c) the counting boards are provided by the meet, you don't have to bring your own.

Also, in the US, the convention is to count UP, so a 500 would be counted 1, 3, 5, 7, ... 19 whereas I understand the convention in Europe is to count DOWN, so an SCM 800 would be counted 31, 29, 27, ... 1.

ande
December 28th, 2010, 10:54 AM
hey couldbebetterfly

would I need to provide my own counter if I entered a 500 or 1000 yd ?
YES, ask a friend to count for you


And is a whistle allowed?
NO only refs have whistles but in masters distance events the ref rings a bell on each swimmers last lap

would the counter need to dunk the board in the pool?
YES,

And are the counting boards provided by the meet?
yes, usually they should be and now some pools offer plastic counters on sticks

want2beafish
December 28th, 2010, 11:25 AM
Also, in the US, the convention is to count UP, so a 500 would be counted 1, 3, 5, 7, ... 19 whereas I understand the convention in Europe is to count DOWN, so an SCM 800 would be counted 31, 29, 27, ... 1.

Reminds me of our son's 500 at the state meet this year... The 500 isn't one of his favorite events, so he wanted to try something new (and presumably safely rebellious). He decided that he wanted me to count him down as opposed to up, because one of the star swimmers in his club who now swims for UGA likes to be counted down. I let the counters on either side of me know what I was doing just so they wouldn't be confused, but I probably should have told the timers on the other side of the pool too. My husband, who was timing for our son, overheard one of the other timers say, "WHAT is that woman doing? That poor swimmer!" My husband then had to explain that our son actually wanted us to count him down. It apparently worked, as our son had a PB for that swim. :)

ourswimmer
December 28th, 2010, 11:27 AM
And is a whistle allowed?
NO only refs have whistles but in masters distance events the ref rings a bell on each swimmers last lap

In my experience, the only meet at which every swimmer in the heat gets a bell is Nationals. At our local meets, the only bell is for the lead swimmer in the heat.


And are the counting boards provided by the meet?
yes, usually they should be and now some pools offer plastic counters on sticks

Sometimes the pool has a set of counting boards for each lane, but sometimes they do not. Our team usually brings two, on poles so that the person counting can put the numbers in the water without sitting or kneeling on the deck. We are always happy to loan them out when we don't need them, but we have had people walk away with them thinking that they are for anyone's use, which is extremely uncool if we have a swimmer in an upcoming heat. If you did not bring your own counting cards or come with a team that did, you can almost always find a set to borrow from the host team or from another competitor, but you should not assume that you can just help yourself to a set that you see on deck.

want2beafish
December 28th, 2010, 11:33 AM
Yes, it was at the St. Nick's meet, and I was in the next lane. Good to see you again! Unfortunately the 400 was the last event of the day, so I was also kinda sluggish in that race. But I did have a PB earlier in the day!

Except for the curious incident with the counters, the St. Nick's meet was a very good meet -- well done, well run, and lots of fun. I would recommend it to anyone. If they have it again next year, I will certainly go!
It's great to see out-of-staters come to one day meets. St. Nick's is pretty much an annual event for the local masters teams. I do wish the meet started a little earlier, but the later start makes it easier for travel. It's all good. Congratulations on your PB!

I really can't complain about my 400. My head just wasn't into it. I had 3 PBs in my first three events, and had fun to boot. And it's always a treat to swim at Georgia Tech.

couldbebetterfly
December 28th, 2010, 05:31 PM
Also, in the US, the convention is to count UP, so a 500 would be counted 1, 3, 5, 7, ... 19 whereas I understand the convention in Europe is to count DOWN, so an SCM 800 would be counted 31, 29, 27, ... 1.

You know I never even thought about counting up/down, and now you mention it - yes I was always counted down, but I probably just ignored the particularly depressing sight of 60 on the board at the start of a 1500.

Thanks to all for the info. I just now need to hope my other half does not plan his trip to Israel to coincide with the 2 upcoming meets I'm thinking of. And find a friend to count for me :)

couldbebetterfly
February 22nd, 2011, 02:22 PM
After my swim this morning I have decided on the go out fast and hold on theory for my upcoming 500. Thinking way back I actually did this unintentionally the day I set my PR for the 400. It also brought back the pain and suffering it took to get there, and I now have 6+ minutes of pain to look forward to on Saturday rather than 5+.

Just needed to get that out where people might understand....

Also if there's anyone here going to the DAM meet at the weekend and can count to 20 for me (or even count 20 down to 0), it'd be much appreciated. I can count when not swimming - even to 66 :)

jaadams1
February 22nd, 2011, 02:51 PM
After my swim this morning I have decided on the go out fast and hold on theory for my upcoming 500. Thinking way back I actually did this unintentionally the day I set my PR for the 400. It also brought back the pain and suffering it took to get there, and I now have 6+ minutes of pain to look forward to on Saturday rather than 5+.

If you do it right, you still may only have 5+ minutes of pain and suffering! I like the "go out fast and hold on technique" as well. If my training is all there, it'll come. If not I'll still die anyway, so I just figure Go For It!



Also if there's anyone here going to the DAM meet at the weekend and can count to 20 for me (or even count 20 down to 0), it'd be much appreciated. I can count when not swimming - even to 66 :)

I'll be going to the DAM meet too! But I'm not really sure that it's the same meet you're talking about. I'll be in Courd A'Lane, Idaho!! :bolt:

larsoda
February 22nd, 2011, 06:14 PM
After my swim this morning I have decided on the go out fast and hold on theory for my upcoming 500. Thinking way back I actually did this unintentionally the day I set my PR for the 400. It also brought back the pain and suffering it took to get there, and I now have 6+ minutes of pain to look forward to on Saturday rather than 5+.

Just needed to get that out where people might understand....

Also if there's anyone here going to the DAM meet at the weekend and can count to 20 for me (or even count 20 down to 0), it'd be much appreciated. I can count when not swimming - even to 66 :)

Ha! In High School I did the go out fast and hold on...but I didn't do much holding on. Mostly because I wanted to swim the 100 & 200 and my coach had me pegged as a distance guy. I had to beat the guys swimming 100 with my splits before the coach would take me seriously as a sprinter.

Of course, now I try to pace it better, but I find that if I go out too slow, it's hard to get the speed I need (want?) in the second half. So I'm trying to go out faster. My times are getting better, but the fades are pretty bad, too. Getting old, I guess:cane:

couldbebetterfly
February 22nd, 2011, 09:42 PM
If you do it right, you still may only have 5+ minutes of pain and suffering! I like the "go out fast and hold on technique" as well. If my training is all there, it'll come. If not I'll still die anyway, so I just figure Go For It!

:lolup: Like sub 6 mins is going to happen this week - I think not, although it'd be cool if it did. PR of 5.15 for 400 SCM is equivalent to just under the 6 min mark, and I don't think I'm quite there yet!



I'll be going to the DAM meet too! But I'm not really sure that it's the same meet you're talking about. I'll be in Courd A'Lane, Idaho!! :bolt:

It'd be a long way for you to see to count - I'll be in Dallas, Tx (Dallas Aquatic Masters), but good luck with it :)

Karl_S
February 22nd, 2011, 10:55 PM
After my swim this morning I have decided on the go out fast and hold on theory for my upcoming 500. Thinking way back I actually did this unintentionally the day I set my PR for the 400. It also brought back the pain and suffering it took to get there, and I now have 6+ minutes of pain to look forward to on Saturday rather than 5+.

It's been a lot of years, but I clearly remember that my best swims in the 500 came when I took the first 100 out at a pace that felt almost ridiculously slow, and held the last 4 100s at almost exactly the same pace. My arms would really start burning at about lap 13. This is the point where I would try to pick up the pace, but in reality I was just countering my natural slowing down. 'did one in practice about a month ago with this strategy and knocked about 20s off my previous best in practice from the past few years.

Good luck with the 500. Let us know how it goes.

orca1946
February 23rd, 2011, 12:45 AM
I did distance in H S & college. I'm still good at it but, I like to do other swims now.

Lump
February 23rd, 2011, 05:39 PM
I did distance in H S & college. I'm still good at it but, I like to do other swims now.

Me too, but I'm still doing them. I'm focusing on the 200 & 500 (400 LCM) and just "swim up" and do the 1000 (well, I did at SC Nats last Spring and will this Spring). The 500 is probably my favorite race and is best suited for me.

Lump
February 23rd, 2011, 05:43 PM
It's been a lot of years, but I clearly remember that my best swims in the 500 came when I took the first 100 out at a pace that felt almost ridiculously slow, and held the last 4 100s at almost exactly the same pace. My arms would really start burning at about lap 13. This is the point where I would try to pick up the pace, but in reality I was just countering my natural slowing down. 'did one in practice about a month ago with this strategy and knocked about 20s off my previous best in practice from the past few years.

Good luck with the 500. Let us know how it goes.


Key to the 500 is to be able to be out fast, but an "easy" fast. That is where all the training comes in. Its a fine line to walk between being out too fast (and dying the last 200) or being left behind to play catch up the whole race. My best 500's I was always just a couple seconds off my best 200 at the 200 split.

couldbebetterfly
February 23rd, 2011, 06:04 PM
Key to the 500 is to be able to be out fast, but an "easy" fast. That is where all the training comes in. Its a fine line to walk between being out too fast (and dying the last 200) or being left behind to play catch up the whole race. My best 500's I was always just a couple seconds off my best 200 at the 200 split.

Thanks for the advice everyone. Yesterday I swam 2 500s - first one I took out steady and built the whole way through, the second I swam out hard and hung on and came in 2 secs faster. While 2 secs in training isn't much to shout about, it was the 2nd one of the day and it felt like a 400 used to. I think I need to swim out hard but control my stroke length on the first 100-200 to get to that "easy" fast point. I still have tomorrow to try the strategy out:D

couldbebetterfly
March 1st, 2011, 02:24 PM
Good luck with the 500. Let us know how it goes.

So as you asked......I finished in 6.16, I had entered a time of 6.15 and hoped to do around 6.10. However I can't be disappointed as:

1. I based the entry time (and hopeful time) on the 400m time I did when my oldest was 9 months old. At that point I was 5 lbs lighter/thinner and was being coached.

2. It was my very first 500yd and it is very different from a 400m

3. The meet ran fast and I had already done a good 50 fly and 100 free (equalled my PRs)

4. The pool was a little on the warm side and shallow

Still the meet was a lot of fun - 5 solid swims on the Saturday and 10 hilarious ones on the Sunday.

I got a couple of compliments on my fly too, so I'm now on to "Project 200 fly" :afraid:

Karl_S
March 2nd, 2011, 10:14 PM
So as you asked......I finished in 6.16, I had entered a time of 6.15 and hoped to do around 6.10. However I can't be disappointed as: ...Still the meet was a lot of fun - 5 solid swims on the Saturday and 10 hilarious ones on the Sunday.

I got a couple of compliments on my fly too, so I'm now on to "Project 200 fly" :afraid:
'sounds like you had a very good meet. Excellent job guessing your entry time in the 500 too! First time ever... that's a solid swim. I'm curious, did you use a 2-beat or 6-beat kick, or some combination?

couldbebetterfly
March 3rd, 2011, 02:43 PM
'sounds like you had a very good meet. Excellent job guessing your entry time in the 500 too! First time ever... that's a solid swim. I'm curious, did you use a 2-beat or 6-beat kick, or some combination?

I am Mrs Very-Lazy-Kicker and don't pay nearly as much attention to my legs as I should:afraid:. I use a 2 beat kick for the majority of the race, then pick it up to 4 or 6 or whatever my legs do when I kick harder through the last 100.

Karl_S
March 6th, 2011, 01:32 PM
I am Mrs Very-Lazy-Kicker and don't pay nearly as much attention to my legs as I should:afraid:. I use a 2 beat kick for the majority of the race, then pick it up to 4 or 6 or whatever my legs do when I kick harder through the last 100.

500 free, 200 fly, If you aren't careful you might get in good shape! Joking aside, it seems like this strategy worked well for you. If my memory of my previous swimming life is correct, it's the same kicking strategy that I used in the 500. My current project is the 100 free. My coach has told me in no uncertain terms that my lazy 2-beat cross-over kick just isn't going to cut it. I'm finding out that is is pretty exhausting to actually kick when swimming freestyle.

couldbebetterfly
March 6th, 2011, 03:01 PM
I'm finding out that is is pretty exhausting to actually kick when swimming freestyle.

Me too! I kicked most of the way on the 100 free .....ouch:cane:

pwb
May 5th, 2011, 04:47 PM
Keith Switzer & Chris Stevenson in Mesa Nationals 200 free, Men's 45-49 final heat:

YouTube - Mens 45-49 200 Free Final Heat, Mesa Nationals

2trax4me
May 6th, 2011, 02:59 PM
N
Keith Switzer & Chris Stevenson in Mesa Nationals 200 free, Men's 45-49 final heat:

YouTube - Mens 45-49 200 Free Final Heat, Mesa Nationals (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a7scmc4FvE)
Nice tight race, thanks for sharing.

I was always a mid to long distance swimmer. Never swam in college so I only swam the 1500 once and can't for the life of me remember what my time was in it. I will definitely be fitting in the mid distance category as having the time to train for long distance is not in the cards.

knelson
May 6th, 2011, 04:09 PM
No one else swims like Chris. It's almost like he's doing backstroke only on his stomach. :)

2trax4me
May 7th, 2011, 09:17 AM
No one else swims like Chris. It's almost like he's doing backstroke only on his stomach. :)
It kind of reminds me of my stroke when I had a good tempo going only it was just my breathing side, big high reach. Not sure if it was to try and get more breath or a deeper dig with my opposite stroke. 52,55 pretty good splits as well

qbrain
May 10th, 2011, 10:15 AM
No one else swims like Chris. It's almost like he's doing backstroke only on his stomach. :)

I really think it is split arm butterfly.

Lump
May 10th, 2011, 06:09 PM
No one else swims like Chris. It's almost like he's doing backstroke only on his stomach. :)

I looks painful...fast...but painful. BTW, Switzer was my college coach! :applaud: Reminds me I need to hit him up for some more "speed" workouts!