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ande
April 29th, 2010, 11:56 AM
We love to SDK. It's the 5th stroke. It takes skill, strength, flexibility, conditioning & mental toughness.
For many it's the 2nd fastest stroke, but it's not a legal stroke.
We wish it was legal. We wish there weren't 15 m restrictions in races.
We count our kicks because kicks count.
We train to SDK faster. Some call SDKs underwaters or dolphins.

What are you doing to improve your SDK?

How many do you take in each race?

Help! My SDK is Horrible! has many tips & a program to get faster.
Here's a helpful post in it.

What are your SDK times?
15, 25, 50, 75, 100, 150 & 200?

Spend some time in the SDK lane & you'll be kicking faster before you know it.


the breastroke lane


The Middle Distance Lane


The Backstroke Lane


The Butterfly Lane


The SDK Lane


The Taper Lane


The Distance Lane


The IM Lane


The Sprint Free Lane


The Pool Deck

The Fortress
April 29th, 2010, 11:59 AM
Wohoo! My fav lane! :)

FlyQueen
April 29th, 2010, 12:05 PM
I like this lane, too! :applaud:

Only reason I'm doing the 50 back at nats - lots of chance for SDK!

SolarEnergy
April 29th, 2010, 12:50 PM
How many do you take in each race?
That!!!!
Is a very good question.

How many do you take in each race (Short Course)
Over 50m (requires your SDK to be faster than your top Fly Speed)
Over 100m (especially during the second 50)
And (I can't wait to get your answers) Over 200?

How many of you guys are taking 15m x 8 over a 200 SC?

That Guy
April 29th, 2010, 01:18 PM
When I started swimming again about 4.5 years ago, I was only taking 2-3 SDK's off each wall. I've slowly developed the ability to take more of them. I mention this because I've had other swimmers ask me how I stay underwater so long. There's no secret - just do as many SDK's as you can off every wall. Over time, you will improve!

In training, I'm up to 10+ off every wall in backstroke, usually 7 or 8 in freestyle, and 7+ in butterfly. In short course races, the amount of SDK's I take decreases throughout the race - I take 12 off the start regardless of the event, but might be down to 6 or 7 off the final wall for a longer race. In long course, I try not to decrease as much.

In the 400 IM, I've learned not to take more than 4-6 SDK's to start the backstroke. Any more will lead to lactic acid issues. I'm not sure why this is true in the 400 IM and not the 200 fly, since I swim the first 100 of those events exactly the same, but there it is. In a short course 400 IM, I try to build the number of SDK's that I take throughout the backstroke, say 4-5-6-7.

One interesting effect of all the SDK training is that long breastroke pullouts don't faze me anymore. I did a 200 SCY breastroke in January and was surprised to beat some breastroke specialists in my heat because I outlasted them on the pullouts, especially in the second 100. In long course, they would destroy me!

SolarEnergy
April 29th, 2010, 01:22 PM
In other words, during a 100m SC(whatever yards or meters), during the second 50 you take between 6 and 10 SDK off each walls?

Same for the 200 BF?

How many meters do you travel under water with 6-10 SDK?

SDK habits during any duration backstroke event don't interest me at all. Just the butterfly.

That Guy
April 29th, 2010, 01:32 PM
In other words, during a 100m SC(whatever yards or meters), during the second 50 you take between 6 and 10 SDK off each walls?

Yeah.


Same for the 200 BF?

For some reason I specifically remember that in one of the 200 flys that I raced this year, I took 7 SDK's off the final wall. So, yeah.


How many meters do you travel under water with 6-10 SDK?

I'm not sure. Maybe 8 meters from a pushoff?


SDK habits during any duration backstroke event don't interest me at all. Just the butterfly.

OK. :)

__steve__
April 29th, 2010, 01:42 PM
I still kick off the wall in turns at meets. I have one coming up Sat and plan to SDK off the wall as a trial.

Just started rotating my turns to the opposite side a couple weeks ago and found that this allowed a much more usable SDK position (left shldr doesn't bend too much).

Will there be a "Start Lane"?

Ahelee Sue Osborn
April 29th, 2010, 01:45 PM
SDK off of every single solitary wall.
Warm-up, EZ swimming, moderate training, and fast racing.

Huge mental game at the beginning which soon becomes a great long fast habit.

ande
April 29th, 2010, 02:11 PM
Each swimmer is different
Do what works for you & train to improve.
Test your ability

Michael Ross & Chris Stevenson are 2 of the best masters SDKers, they are great ones to watch & model yourself after.

Chris often SDKs, follow his blog (http://www.usms.org/forums/blog.php?u=6428) He's great at breath control & maintains high kick counts on longer sets.

Leslie The Fortress (http://www.usms.org/forums/blog.php?u=4677) SDKs often, follow her blog


here's my SDK kick counts for SC races

50 fr 4 - 6
50 fl 8 - 10
50 bk 10 - 12
50 br 1 off each wall

100 fr 3 or 4
100 fl 6 to 8
100 bk 8 to 11
100 IM fl 8 - 10, bk 10 - 12, br 1, fr 3 to 4

200 IM fl / bk 4 or 5 off each wall, br 1, fr 3 or 4
200 fr 3 or 4



That!!!!
Is a very good question.

How many do you take in each race (Short Course)
Over 50m (requires your SDK to be faster than your top Fly Speed)
Over 100m (especially during the second 50)
And (I can't wait to get your answers) Over 200?

How many of you guys are taking 15m x 8 over a 200 SC?

swimshark
April 29th, 2010, 02:37 PM
I had ankle surgery this past Nov and now have a ganglion cyst in the same spot. I'm happy to be able to do 1 SDK in free and usually 2 in back. I started with a new team last June while I was in a walking boot and couldn't kick at all. I feel like 1 to 2 SDK is a huge improvement.

SolarEnergy
April 29th, 2010, 02:55 PM
SDK off of every single solitary wall.
Warm-up, EZ swimming, moderate training, and fast racing.

Huge mental game at the beginning which soon becomes a great long fast habit. During your fly events? Which one do you typically compete in? Both the 100 and the 200?

Can you take say... 10m SDK off each wall during a 200m BF Short Course?

SolarEnergy
April 29th, 2010, 03:00 PM
Each swimmer is different
Do what works for you & train to improve.
Test your ability

Michael Ross & Chris Stevenson are 2 of the best masters SDKers, they are great ones to watch & model yourself after. Do any of these two compete in both 100fly and 200fly?

So far, the fastest fly swimmer I came across on this site is Born2Fly I believe, a swimmer to whom I can relate since he does compete in the 200mfly event. Not much SDK though...

I consider SDK into Backstroke races as being a completely different animal.


100 fl 6 to 8 How far from the wall does this bring you? And more importantly, what's your breathing pattern during the 100? Can you SDK 6-8 then perform the full stroke portion breathing every 2?

During the 200fly, what's your sdk count?

SolarEnergy
April 29th, 2010, 03:02 PM
I'm not sure. Maybe 8 meters from a pushoff?
So in other words, during a 200 you manage to swim 8m under water x 8 length?

Thank you very much for this precious information.

Charles

The Fortress
April 29th, 2010, 03:13 PM
Do any of these two compete in both 100fly and 200fly?

So far, the fastest fly swimmer I came across on this site is Born2Fly I believe, a swimmer to whom I can relate since he does compete in the 200mfly event. Not much SDK though...

I consider SDK into Backstroke races as being a completely different animal.

How far from the wall does this bring you? And more importantly, what's your breathing pattern during the 100? Can you SDK 6-8 then perform the full stroke portion breathing every 2?

During the 200fly, what's your sdk count?

Mike and Chris are both national record holders in fly. Mike does only the 50-100. Chris does the 100-200 and hates the 50. He SDKs quite a bit in his 200, but I'm not certain of the # he takes. I'm sure he'll come along and answer. I know he doesn't breathe every other stroke though; he adds a lot of singles even in a 100 fly. I don't swim the 200 fly. :afraid: If I take too many SDKs in a 200 back though, I go into oxygen debt and crash.

SDK for back and fly are very different. I take many more in backstroke. My 100 fly might be 10-8-8-7. Forgot to count last time I swam it.

Here's how a good SDK can help you in a race, and I was playing it very safe with the 15 meter mark after Chris suffered a costly DQ in the 200. 50 back from LC Nats: YouTube- Leslie's 50 LCM Backstroke National Championship Performance.

Here's a recent SCY 50: YouTube- MVI 1033.

Hopefully, Chris can post some footage for you too.

Ahelee Sue Osborn
April 29th, 2010, 03:28 PM
During your fly events? Which one do you typically compete in? Both the 100 and the 200?
Can you take say... 10m SDK off each wall during a 200m BF Short Course?

I only really swim fly for my IM races - and occasional 50 & 100 fly in meets for training.
I have to glide fly for a 200 and have only done it twice.
I prescribe to the more underwater the better because its' less fly to swim.

I'm a girl - age 52.
Best fly times are my IM leadoff splits which always seems weird to me because those felt cruise and slow.
Short course:
29. in the 50 @ 200IM (30.+ in a race)
1:07. in the 100 @ 400IM
(1:09.+ in a race)

All long long underwater - I don't count the SDKs, I go by feel.
Ande tells me I should count them.

SolarEnergy
April 29th, 2010, 03:47 PM
Chris does the 100-200 and hates the 50. He SDKs quite a bit in his 200, but I'm not certain of the # he takes. Interesting. I am anxious to read Chris Racing strategy over 200.


If I take too many SDKs in a 200 back though, I go into oxygen debt and crash. That is my concern. Not nearly as much of a problem for backstroke events where you can, in theory, inhale sufficient levels of o2 to hopefully repay the o2 accumulated deficit within the 25.

ande
April 29th, 2010, 03:54 PM
Do any of these two compete in both 100fly and 200fly?
chris, yes
mike, no but he does the 200 bk & is in great shape for the 200 fr & IM so he's bound to have a decent 200 FL

How far from the wall does this bring you?
not sure
It takes me 12 kicks to go 15 m at race pace


what's your breathing pattern during the 100 FL?
every other

Can you SDK 6-8 then perform the full stroke portion breathing every 2?
sure, no problem

During the 200fly, what's your sdk count?
I haven't done a 200 fly since I don't know when.
I may do one next year, I went 1:53 in college, split it 53 1:00
did one years ago in masters think I was 2:07, pretty sure I can go close to 2:00 if rested fresh & feeling good
I'd probably save my legs, go out easy & attempt to split it well

when I was 18 I went 2:17 LCM out in 1:00 back in 1:17
200 fl & I aren't friends.

That Guy
April 29th, 2010, 04:04 PM
So in other words, during a 200 you manage to swim 8m under water x 8 length?

Thank you very much for this precious information.

Charles

In a 25 yard pool, the 15 meter marker from the OTHER wall is 8 meters from the wall I just pushed off of. I pretty much always make it to that marker, if not farther, so that's why I guessed 8 meters.

That Guy
April 29th, 2010, 04:07 PM
when i was 18 i went 2:17 lcm out in 1:00 back in 1:17

ow ow ow ow ow my brain hurts make it stop

Chris Stevenson
April 29th, 2010, 04:22 PM
In the 100 fly I take 7-8 kicks off the walls. I breathe most strokes, though not because of the SDKs (I have just found that it doesn't slow me down). Here is a clip from the floswimming from Clovis nationals last year (I'm in lane 5):

http://www.floswimming.org/videos/coverage/view_video/234996/177507

In the 200 fly, currently I take 6 kicks off the walls on the first 100, then 5 kicks on the second. Clovis clip (again, lane 5):

http://www.floswimming.org/videos/coverage/view_video/234996/178484

I do more kicks on backstroke, but it isn't because oxygen debt is less of a problem: actually it is worse in backstroke than fly b/c of the flipturn. I am simply faster at SDK on my back, and I believe my butterfly swim is a little faster than my backstroke swim. Combine the two, and it makes more sense to take 1-2 fewer kicks off the walls in my fly races.

In practices I never take fewer than 5 kicks off the wall on fly sets, no matter the distance. As Ahelee says, there is a big psychological component (though I also think there is some physiological adaptation): at this point, doing fewer than 5 kicks feels very odd to me.

ande
April 29th, 2010, 04:24 PM
there's a swimmer on my team who trumped me in the 2008 nats in austin
his splits were

28

32

36

...
...
...

drum roll

can you guess what it is


...
...
...

still drumming


...
...
...

ok
here it is


...
...
...

not yet

can you guess

ok
I'll tell you now

44

28
32 1:00
36 1:36
44 2:20

I don't think he SDKed much
he went vertical on that last 50, it was awful, painful, & somewhat hilarious to witness in a twisted sort of way

the best way to swim any 200 is to
not go out too hard, use easy speed & breathe
&
keep your 2nd 3rd & 4th splits as close to each other as possible

don't kill yourself on the first 50
breathe, save your legs, do gentle SDKs,

Mike Ross told me that when he swam his 200 bk at 2008 nats in Austin
he worked his SDK then swam easy to moderate to each turn.

Haven't tried it yet but it seems very sensible

SolarEnergy
April 29th, 2010, 10:59 PM
Ande thank you so much for having taken the time. I appreciate a lot.

Chris, those were a fantastic races. If you have a blog or something, a youtube account where I could visualize several more, I would greatly appreciate.

The winner was even stronger on SDK it appears.

I tested the other day, 2 50m fast, 1 almost not breathing, 1 breathing every stroke (in this order). I came up with 30.85, 30.95 respectively. Therefore I agree with you on that it's not worth building up an o2 accumulated deficit.

Damn I hate SDKing on my belly. I hate feeling that I hold my breathe when I could breathe, but I guess I am going to have to live with it. I doubt that I will ever use this in a 200 though.

Thanks to you all, I needed to have a feel about how widespread SDK was among 200 fly swimmers. I am a bit surprised to see the huge advantage Chris got out of it over the 100, although his performance level as well as physical abilities place him closer to say, some varsity level senior swimmers, than to mere masters training 9kilo per week and not coming from an club swimming background.

Chris Stevenson
April 30th, 2010, 09:41 AM
If you have a blog or something, a youtube account where I could visualize several more, I would greatly appreciate.

I have a blog here on the USMS site. I think you can click on the link after "blog entries" under my picture to the left. I don't usually have videos taken of myself swimming, just what others have sent me. Nothing else of butterfly races that I can think of, though there are some backstroke races. I'm not sure you are interested in those.

Swimmy83843
April 30th, 2010, 12:03 PM
28
32 1:00
36 1:36
44 2:20


That looks almost identical to my 200 fly split at the PNAs this year. I only dropped to a 38 the last 50 and ended with a 2:17.:blush:

__steve__
April 30th, 2010, 12:27 PM
28
32 1:00
36 1:36
44 2:20

he went vertical on that last 50, it was awful, painful, & somewhat hilarious to witness in a twisted sort of way
Although this is a little off subject, would there be any benefit of actually performing this in practice as a lactate production set, by going out too fast for say, a 200, and just barely making it back? Or like attempting sets of 100's at your 25 pace and dying before you finish each

ande
April 30th, 2010, 04:02 PM
Although this is a little off subject, would there be any benefit of actually performing this in practice as a lactate production set, by going out too fast for say, a 200, and just barely making it back? Or like attempting sets of 100's at your 25 pace and dying before you finish each

NO, NOT, NEVER, NEGATIVE, NOPE

swim it in practice the way you want to race it in a meet
swim it the way that allows you to do the best time & live to tell

ande
April 30th, 2010, 04:06 PM
This is the FASTEST 50 LCM SDK from a backstroke start that I've ever seen in person or on video, Hill Taylor (http://www.texassports.com/sports/m-swim/mtt/taylor_hill00.html)

Men 50 Meters Backstroke (final A)
Texas Circuit #3, Austin
Lee and Joe Jamail Swim Center
Austin, TX, US
Jun, 11 2009 - Jun 14 2009 (http://www.floswimming.org/videos/coverage/view_video/235153/186553-m-club-50-lcm-back-final-ha-d3)

What do you think?

Do you know of a faster one?

(i heard Lochte SDKed 50 LCM in 22.8 at the 2008 Olympic training camp, but I'm not sure how he started & there's no video)

Michael Heather
April 30th, 2010, 04:37 PM
28
32 1:00
36 1:36
44 2:20

I don't think he SDKed much
he went vertical on that last 50, it was awful, painful, & somewhat hilarious to witness in a twisted sort of way

OK, I've been swimming the 200 fly for a long time and have experienced that swim once or twice. It is usually the swim that convinces people never to attempt the 200 fly again.

I SDK most of the 200 on a diminishing track, 10,8, 5, 5, 3, 3, 3 in short course. I get a good push off anyway, so the fewer kicks don't hurt much.

The secret of swimming a good and pain free 200 fly is simple. The first 50 should feel like you are holding back, control gone mad, almost. After that, each 50 is a buildup of effort, trying to descend each. The most important thing of all, remember to exhale while your face is in the water. My best splits for a 200 fly have my last 50 being the second fastest. This accomplishes two things: a) you are stimulated to swim faster because you know that you have only 50 left, and b) the other swimmers near by feel worse yet when they see you accelerate near the end of the race.

That Guy
April 30th, 2010, 05:52 PM
OK, I've been swimming the 200 fly for a long time and have experienced that swim once or twice. It is usually the swim that convinces people never to attempt the 200 fly again.
...
This accomplishes two things: a) you are stimulated to swim faster because you know that you have only 50 left, and b) the other swimmers near by feel worse yet when they see you accelerate near the end of the race.

I've carried my share of pianos too. They make me go back and train harder.

You can give the appearance of acceleration in the 200 fly just by maintaining speed. Pretty much everyone else slows down. If you jump out ahead of me in the 200 fly, I don't worry about it too much. You're either better than me or you're on a suicide mission. I'll find out soon enough :D

To make this post relevant to the thread topic, I'll add that by taking more SDK's, I take fewer strokes. Seems logical to use the bigger leg muscles as much as possible and save the smaller arm muscles.

SolarEnergy
April 30th, 2010, 06:12 PM
Although this is a little off subject, would there be any benefit of actually performing this in practice as a lactate production set, by going out too fast for say, a 200, and just barely making it back? Or like attempting sets of 100's at your 25 pace and dying before you finish each Wow, spot on the main topic of next season's researches. I want to test systematic usage of train to exhaustion, or systematic failure so to speak, for threshold, max o2 peak and anaerobic capacity systems.

The approach you describe doesn't correspond to a lactate production set though, it's a lactate tolerance set. A lactate production or anaerobic power set consists of producing as much lactate as possible, read reaching the fastest speed possible over a duration that is short enough so that you don't need to tolerate this lactate for more than a few seconds. Typically, a 50m corresponds better to this description.

Two things. Your body will adapt to this sort of situation, by learning (asap) to better handle this precious energy source (lactate). In the same time though, the high levels of H+ (as well as other corrosive ions) will have a detrimental effect to the structures being exposed to them. Also, when you are almost swimming at vertical (fly) as a result of ridiculously high levels of acidosis, you are taxing the nervous system big time. Because whilst this is occurring, your brain will try to send even stronger electrical signals.

The question is : will the benefit outweigh the downside?

I don't have an answer at this time. Ande may be right, and the answer may vary between individuals.

I am sure that a lot of people could be swimming faster, if only they were trying harder to swim faster when they're given the opportunity to swim fast.

It is my case. My bests this season over 50,100 and 200 definitely suggests that I carry this fear of being trapped in the hurt box for too long. I need to break this pattern. I need to start too fast and try to bring it back home anyway, too see what my real limits are. But that's me.

SolarEnergy
April 30th, 2010, 06:22 PM
Seems logical to use the bigger leg muscles as much as possible and save the smaller arm muscles. I agree here. This is an other benefit of SDKing. First, you end up giving less strokes. Less strokes = less upper body acid buildup.

If only we could be as fast at the surface whilst breathing (no arms)....

Chris Stevenson
April 30th, 2010, 08:22 PM
I SDK most of the 200 on a diminishing track, 10,8, 5, 5, 3, 3, 3 in short course.

I think it is worth experimenting with different SDK strategies in a race. My instinctive strategy -- which may not be best -- is to try to keep them as close as possible throughout the race. In the 100 fly that means 8-9 kicks off each wall (usually 10 off the start) and in the 100 back that means 11 kicks off each wall (usually 9-10 off the start). In the 100 back, those numbers take me out to almost 15m. If I fall off in number it will be on the last wall (eg, sometimes I only make it out to 9-10 in the 10 back) due to fatigue/burning legs.

In the 200 back, I can't make it to 15m on every wall, at least not at race pace. I'll usually start with 7 kicks for the first 100 and then settle on 6 for the 2nd 100. In 200 fly, like I said, it is 6 and 5.

But I once did a 200 back where I reversed it: did 5-6 kicks going out and then added 1-2 kicks off the walls of the last 100. I did this because I was feeling slightly ill and wanted to conserve my energy; I ended up negative-splitting the race (unusual for me) and had a very nice swim. My best 200 SCM backstroke in the last few years, in fact.

So I wonder if "back-loading" the SDKs is a worthwhile strategy to consider. Seems to work for Phelps on that last wall in many races...


To make this post relevant to the thread topic, I'll add that by taking more SDK's, I take fewer strokes. Seems logical to use the bigger leg muscles as much as possible and save the smaller arm muscles.

I've heard this statement echoed many times, including from some very successful distance flyers. IMO, I think it is more complicated than "saving your arms." In butterfly, everything is connected: if my legs die, then I'm going to sink and go slower, no matter how fresh my arms are.

Plus, as you say, the legs are bigger muscles, presenting a greater oxygen demand.

Basically, I think there is a happy medium, and every person needs to find it.


Wow, spot on the main topic of next season's researches. I want to test systematic usage of train to exhaustion, or systematic failure so to speak, for threshold, max o2 peak and anaerobic capacity systems.

The approach you describe doesn't correspond to a lactate production set though, it's a lactate tolerance set. A lactate production or anaerobic power set consists of producing as much lactate as possible, read reaching the fastest speed possible over a duration that is short enough so that you don't need to tolerate this lactate for more than a few seconds. Typically, a 50m corresponds better to this description.

Two things. Your body will adapt to this sort of situation, by learning (asap) to better handle this precious energy source (lactate). In the same time though, the high levels of H+ (as well as other corrosive ions) will have a detrimental effect to the structures being exposed to them. Also, when you are almost swimming at vertical (fly) as a result of ridiculously high levels of acidosis, you are taxing the nervous system big time. Because whilst this is occurring, your brain will try to send even stronger electrical signals.

The question is : will the benefit outweigh the downside?

I don't have an answer at this time. Ande may be right, and the answer may vary between individuals.

I am sure that a lot of people could be swimming faster, if only they were trying harder to swim faster when they're given the opportunity to swim fast.

It is my case. My bests this season over 50,100 and 200 definitely suggests that I carry this fear of being trapped in the hurt box for too long. I need to break this pattern. I need to start too fast and try to bring it back home anyway, too see what my real limits are. But that's me.

Lactate tolerance sets -- and a subset of these, "race-pace" sets -- are critical to swimming fast. I do a lot of these, but I never ever do them as just mentioned: basically, sprint as fast as you can and try to hold on. I never race that way, why would I want to practice that way? Plus as you die, your mechanics will degrade horribly and you don't want to gain bad habits.

There are many ways to do lactate-tolerance sets that will give you the desired physiological adaptations without resorting to the "sprint until you die, then keep swimming" repeats.

A couple interesting links to short articles:

http://www.drmirkin.com/fitness/lactic_acid.html (challenges the theory that acidification is reason that muscles "seize up" as LA concentration increases)

http://www.drmirkin.com/fitness/lactic_acid_intervals.html (most swimmers don't need to be sold on the benefits of interval training, but still interesting)

swimmj
April 30th, 2010, 11:10 PM
NO, NOT, NEVER, NEGATIVE, NOPE

swim it in practice the way you want to race it in a meet
swim it the way that allows you to do the best time & live to tell

That was exactly my gut reaction. Swimming fly when you stroke starts to fall apart is not helpful.

SolarEnergy
May 1st, 2010, 09:34 AM
why would I want to practice that way? Plus as you die, your mechanics will degrade horribly and you don't want to gain bad habits. I'll do some research on this next year. Note the use the word research, not training. I see no real potential benefit for someone like you.


There are many ways to do lactate-tolerance sets that will give you the desired physiological adaptations without resorting to the "sprint until you die, then keep swimming" repeats. obviously.


A couple interesting links to short articles: Thanks. Most of these facts are well known by now, but I am not wiling to call these sets H+/K+ tolerance sets anyway. Seriously, Lactate levels can still be used as proxi for monitoring fatigue level during supra-threshold efforts.

__steve__
May 3rd, 2010, 06:27 PM
From now on, the SDK will follow every single turn I perform in the future.


NO, NOT, NEVER, NEGATIVE, NOPE

swim it in practice the way you want to race it in a meet
swim it the way that allows you to do the best time & live to tell

and


Lactate tolerance sets -- and a subset of these, "race-pace" sets -- are critical to swimming fast. I do a lot of these, but I never ever do them as just mentioned: basically, sprint as fast as you can and try to hold on. I never race that way, why would I want to practice that way? Plus as you die, your mechanics will degrade horribly and you don't want to gain bad habits.

There are many ways to do lactate-tolerance sets that will give you the desired physiological adaptations without resorting to the "sprint until you die, then keep swimming" repeats.

A couple interesting links to short articles:

http://www.drmirkin.com/fitness/lactic_acid.html (challenges the theory that acidification is reason that muscles "seize up" as LA concentration increases)

http://www.drmirkin.com/fitness/lactic_acid_intervals.html (most swimmers don't need to be sold on the benefits of interval training, but still interesting)Thanks.

ande
May 5th, 2010, 04:13 PM
Dr Mirkin is my friend's dad.

How's everyones SDKs going today.
I did 2 fast 50's SDK from a push SCY
went 26.2 & 26.0

Mon did 15 x 100 LCM fly K with no board no fins from a dive
most were 17's, a few 18's, 2 19's & last was 1:14
did 6 SDKs off the dive & 0 off the turn except for the last one

hope to take another whack at it on Monday

ande



A couple interesting links to short articles:

http://www.drmirkin.com/fitness/lactic_acid.html (challenges the theory that acidification is reason that muscles "seize up" as LA concentration increases)

http://www.drmirkin.com/fitness/lactic_acid_intervals.html (most swimmers don't need to be sold on the benefits of interval training, but still interesting)

ande
August 24th, 2010, 10:51 AM
Since we're at the beginning of a new season
I thought I'd bump all the lanes to see which one is winning

Karl_S
August 24th, 2010, 01:40 PM
I need to spend A LOT more time in this lane!
About a year ago I decided that to be more competitive needed to learn how to do SDKs. I am trying to use it predominantly for backstroke, but also for butterfly. (So far, there is no way my SDK is faster than my freestyle, so I just get to the surface and start swimming.) To date, I can do 6 SDKs off every wall backstroke in warmup and 3 in the main workout. (In a race it is like 5 on the start and 3 off the turns.) For fly I do 3 SDKs off every wall, but I don't swim a lot of fly. A few times per week I do sets of repeat 25s doing SDK as far as I can and then ez stroke for the rest of the 25. On a good day I can do about 12 SDKs and that gets me.... I am embarrassed to say... just past 7 yards out. This seems like a miserable performance to me. The only good news is that there is NO danger of being DQ'ed for going past the 15m mark! I guess it is better than the 0 SDKs that I could do a year ago, but I am wondering how many more years it is going to take before the SDK thing starts to be an advantage for me. I have a plan to do better this season. Hopefully progress will be swifter.

I'd like to hear others' experiences. From when you started to try SDK for the first time, how did it progress for you?

bzaks1424
August 24th, 2010, 01:42 PM
We had to do shooters the other night with fins. I normally NEVER use fins, but this night was kind of fun. I did my first 25 completely underwater just doing SDK. It was the coolest experience ever until I realized I wasn't watching where I was going and crashed in the bulkhead.

TeamTermin
August 26th, 2010, 12:06 PM
Great discussion.

Just curious...how do you determine how many kicks from the wall the mean velocity of the SDK and your mean regular swimming velocity intersect? Or do you believe that your mean SDK velocity is always higher than your mean regular swimming velocity?

Speedo
August 26th, 2010, 02:48 PM
I'm not proficient at SDKs, but have incorporated them in the last year and do 2-3 off of every wall in practice. But something I have noticed- they feel much better in practice than they do in a race.

If you want to use them effectively in a race, you have to practice them at race pace. Otherwise, you'll just be shakin your groove thang down there.

I intend to do more 50s (in short course) where the swim is close to race pace, but the walls are at 50 free race pace. These drills will have gobs of rest, as the intent is to concentrate on technique and feel at speed.

I'm sure there are other ways to improve your SDKs in a race and not just in practice, but this is something I intend to work on. :2cents:

bzaks1424
August 26th, 2010, 02:55 PM
I intend to do more 50s (in short course) where the swim is close to race pace, but the walls are at 50 free race pace. These drills will have gobs of rest, as the intent is to concentrate on technique and feel at speed.
If I may suggest: Try doing (what I was taught were called) "Texas 50s". Start in the middle of the pool and do your 50s. You'll get an extra flip turn practice as well as SDK practice. :)

Speedo
August 26th, 2010, 03:07 PM
If I may suggest: Try doing (what I was taught were called) "Texas 50s". Start in the middle of the pool and do your 50s. You'll get an extra flip turn practice as well as SDK practice. :)But.... the pool is too deep! :)

Thanks for the suggestion.

bzaks1424
August 26th, 2010, 03:10 PM
But.... the pool is too deep! :)

Thanks for the suggestion.

Tread? ;)

ande
August 31st, 2010, 10:16 AM
Great discussion.
Just curious...
how do you determine how many kicks from the wall the mean velocity of the SDK and your mean regular swimming velocity intersect?
Or do you believe that your mean SDK velocity is always higher than your mean regular swimming velocity?

I call that your sweet spot or idea kick count.

SDK velocity vs Swimming velocity is different for
every swimmer and every event.

My suggestions are:

+ Train to improve your SDK speed,
strengthen legs for better dives & push offs
improve streamline
improve SDK technique & timing
improve foot flexibility

+ Train to improve your SDK speed endurance & breath control

+ Identify your SDK strengths & weaknesses
like I'm faster on my back than I am on my belly,
I'm not so great with breath control and drop my SDK kick count in 200's

+ Train for many months to improve your SDK ability

+ Experiment to determine your SDK kick counts for each race
If your SDK is terrible & slow, your SDK kick should probably should be 0

mine are

50 fr 5 or 6
100 fr 3 or 4
200 fr 2 or 3

50 fl 8 to 10
100 fl 6 to 8

50 bk 12
100 bk 10

100 IM fl 8 bk 8 to 10 fr 4 or 5
200 IM fl 6 bk 5 fr 3

marksman
September 3rd, 2010, 06:37 PM
I just wanted to recommend freestylers watch Ryan Lochte's 200 free win over Tae Hwan Park in the 2010 Pan Pacs (video available on youtube). He used SDK off the turns really well in that race, and it seems his SDK of the final turn was faster than Tae Hwan's final 50...which is usually brutally fast.

YouTube- Pan Pacs '10: Ryan Lochte wins the 200 Free (Universal Sports)

Celestial
September 15th, 2010, 09:57 PM
SDK off of every single solitary wall.
Warm-up, EZ swimming, moderate training, and fast racing.

Huge mental game at the beginning which soon becomes a great long fast habit.

I hope you're right - I can really get out of breath doing this, but I've noticed that my competition seems to get ahead of me on every turn this way, and then I have to work even harder between the walls!

bzaks1424
September 16th, 2010, 09:22 AM
I hope you're right - I can really get out of breath doing this, but I've noticed that my competition seems to get ahead of me on every turn this way, and then I have to work even harder between the walls!

So what you're saying is that learning to SDK more effectively will then be a function of becoming lazier? :rofl: I LIKE IT!

fmracing
September 23rd, 2010, 02:10 PM
Finally got around to timing an underwater 25m SDK today.

From a pushoff it was 16 sec on the pace clock. Good or bad?

bzaks1424
September 23rd, 2010, 02:16 PM
Finally got around to timing an underwater 25m SDK today.

From a pushoff it was 16 sec on the pace clock. Good or bad?
Positively awful. You want to have at least a 30 or a 40 second..... we're going for high score right?

Actually not that we should compare ourselves to people like Ryan Lochte, but you can find vids of him on youtube doing a 50 SCY in something faster than 25 seconds. Of course - that being a "some day I'd really like to be less than double that" goal seems totally attainable! :D

fmracing
September 23rd, 2010, 02:24 PM
Positively awful. You want to have at least a 30 or a 40 second..... we're going for high score right?

Actually not that we should compare ourselves to people like Ryan Lochte, but you can find vids of him on youtube doing a 50 SCY in something faster than 25 seconds. Of course - that being a "some day I'd really like to be less than double that" goal seems totally attainable! :D

I think if I wasn't as tired at the time i could've probably done in the 15 sec range. Seems plausible i could do 13ish in a 25y... the turn and breathing would be the problem for me in a 50. I think about 40 yards wouldn't be a problem... those last 10 though would hurt. I'll make it my goal lol.

Just for reference what size are lochte's feet?

Ahelee Sue Osborn
September 23rd, 2010, 02:43 PM
Just for reference what size are lochte's feet?

Yes... I always carry a camera :)

Have been waiting for just the right place to post these shoes!

fmracing
September 23rd, 2010, 02:49 PM
Yes... I always carry a camera :)

Have been waiting for just the right place to post these shoes!


They showed the shoes on TV :)

Cool pics though... you left out the shoe size tag though. Anyone know what size they are? Look smaller than my shoes.. in size at least.

Karl_S
September 23rd, 2010, 03:32 PM
Finally got around to timing an underwater 25m SDK today.

From a pushoff it was 16 sec on the pace clock. Good or bad?
To us mortals that sounds very good. My 25 SCY SDK time is still effectively infinite as I have yet to complete a full length without stopping.

How many kicks does that take for you? Today I was consistently getting 8 YDS on 10 kicks from a push.

fmracing
September 23rd, 2010, 03:45 PM
To us mortals that sounds very good. My 25 SCY SDK time is still effectively infinite as I have yet to complete a full length without stopping.

How many kicks does that take for you? Today I was consistently getting 8 YDS on 10 kicks from a push.

Lol... just like counting strokes across the pool was foreign to me before joining this forum... so is counting kicks. I guess I can't even estimate how many. 40? 50? I dolphin kick pretty fast with my size 15 s :) Not exactly going for distance per kick so much as overall speed.

Typically if I don't kick at all on a pushoff my feet are at the flags when i come up for the first stroke. If I kick off the turns, my head is at half pool with 3-4 kicks when i take the first stroke. (SCM pool)

fmracing
September 23rd, 2010, 03:50 PM
I suppose another way to phrase my good/bad question might be... when can one call their SDK so good that they should focus more on other things?

To say you're good enough "when you can kick your 50 sprint pace" sounds wrong. I can't imagine you should ever be able to outkick your swim in a 50 free right? So at what percentage of your 50 pace should an SDK be to start to look elsewhere for things to improve on? 90? 95?

stillwater
September 23rd, 2010, 04:16 PM
I suppose another way to phrase my good/bad question might be... when can one call their SDK so good that they should focus more on other things?


The goal is to SDK 15 meters as fast as you can. Just because others can cover 15 meters quicker underwater doesn't mean it's right for you. A lot of very fast swimmers flutter kick off the wall.

Experiment. Test for time. Adjust. Experiment. Test for time...

fmracing
September 23rd, 2010, 04:22 PM
The goal is to SDK 15 meters as fast as you can. Just because others can cover 15 meters quicker underwater doesn't mean it's right for you. A lot of very fast swimmers flutter kick off the wall.

Experiment. Test for time. Adjust. Experiment. Test for time...

Ok... so timing a 15m... at what point do you kinda call it good and work on something else? I kindof train myself as a, work-on-the-weakest-link-first, kind of swimmer. When you get 90-95% of the way there on the entire swim you have to pick out small parts and perfect them to get better. I want to verify that I'm doing everything i can underwater before i move on to the new weakest spot. So at what threshold does one kinda make the call "ok this part is better than the rest of the weaker parts now" and move on?

fatboy
September 23rd, 2010, 07:01 PM
I can't imagine you should ever be able to outkick your swim in a 50 free right? So at what percentage of your 50 pace should an SDK be to start to look elsewhere for things to improve on? 90? 95?

I thought that the value of the SDK is that you are going faster than you can swim (whatever stroker you are racing). If your SDK is slower, what is the point of doing it?

Jimbosback
September 23rd, 2010, 07:02 PM
Lol... just like counting strokes across the pool was foreign to me before joining this forum... so is counting kicks. I guess I can't even estimate how many. 40? 50? I dolphin kick pretty fast with my size 15 s :) Not exactly going for distance per kick so much as overall speed.

Typically if I don't kick at all on a pushoff my feet are at the flags when i come up for the first stroke. If I kick off the turns, my head is at half pool with 3-4 kicks when i take the first stroke. (SCM pool)


FYI -- I am working on this a bit, too, and I found I go much faster with a larger wave and fewer kicks. I repeat 18s w/24 kicks or so and I'm around 20s with my fast kick, which is 30-34 kicks. My best is 16, always at the end of practice.

YMMV, and I have small, inflexible feet feet. And, I have no idea if these times are good.

fmracing
September 24th, 2010, 12:23 PM
FYI -- I am working on this a bit, too, and I found I go much faster with a larger wave and fewer kicks. I repeat 18s w/24 kicks or so and I'm around 20s with my fast kick, which is 30-34 kicks. My best is 16, always at the end of practice.

YMMV, and I have small, inflexible feet feet. And, I have no idea if these times are good.

I find that if i kick larger with knees, i can feel the water drag alot more than a smaller quicker kick only from the hips and ankles. I have very flexible ankles too so that helps. I really should try this as a sprint and bribe a lifeguard to run a stopwatch for me. Timing things by the paceclock alone is hard.

Celestial
September 25th, 2010, 07:55 PM
I thought that the value of the SDK is that you are going faster than you can swim (whatever stroker you are racing). If your SDK is slower, what is the point of doing it?
I think the point is, that by allowing yourself to go slower in practice, so that you become more proficient at it, you will more easily incorporate it into your races, and you will NOT be slower when you do this. It takes a lot of breath control, and breath control takes practice. Gotta be willing to try new things!! :wiggle:

couldbebetterfly
October 4th, 2010, 10:50 PM
I really need to spend more time here.....

Right now I'm only getting 3 or 4 kicks off the wall on freestyle, then finding I'm moving slower than I should be on my breakout. Ahh well more SDK tomorrow, maybe I'll try and time some 25s.....actually maybe I'll just try and complete some 25s without fins :laugh2:

just keep kicking, just keep kicking, just keep kicking, kicking, kicking.....

bzaks1424
October 5th, 2010, 08:56 AM
So as I'm working on my SDK - I know my lower abs are still too weak. So as a bit of an experiment (a necessary one at that) I'm taking the time during my dry land to put an emphasized focus on my lower abs. Things like leg lifts are far harder than they should be and I feel that since the SDK should engage the lower abs, I should (eventually) see a large improvement in my SDK as a result of greater lower ab strength.

fmracing
October 5th, 2010, 09:35 AM
put an emphasized focus on my lower abs

Hanging leg lifts = all you need :)

If you still want more though... lay on your back, lift your legs about 1 foot off the ground and then with your legs together move your legs as if writing the alphabet with your toes. Do this til you can go twice through the alphabet without lowering the legs :)

I never thought of it as ab strength though, you want ab endurance.

bzaks1424
October 5th, 2010, 01:33 PM
Hanging leg lifts = all you need :)

If you still want more though... lay on your back, lift your legs about 1 foot off the ground and then with your legs together move your legs as if writing the alphabet with your toes. Do this til you can go twice through the alphabet without lowering the legs :)

I never thought of it as ab strength though, you want ab endurance.

Why not both? Consider a weak SDK - If the lower abs/lower back combo are stronger - you should be able to perform a more "robust" (bigger kick) SDK in a shorter/the same amount of time.
If you want to do it again and again (and again and again and again....etc..) you need to build the endurance.

In my case - I need to build both. A lot.

fmracing
October 5th, 2010, 02:25 PM
Why not both? Consider a weak SDK - If the lower abs/lower back combo are stronger - you should be able to perform a more "robust" (bigger kick) SDK in a shorter/the same amount of time.
If you want to do it again and again (and again and again and again....etc..) you need to build the endurance.

In my case - I need to build both. A lot.


I suppose it's almost the same thing, I just don't see the sheer strength part as needed. I think most healthy people posess the ab strength needed to put forth a powerful dolphin kick once regardless of current conditioning. It's all about the repeatability of this move. We're really saying the same thing here though so I won't add anything else :) Work the kick and the abs for endurance and you'll have gained plenty of strength in the process :D

couldbebetterfly
October 5th, 2010, 02:41 PM
Hanging leg lifts = all you need :)

If you still want more though... lay on your back, lift your legs about 1 foot off the ground and then with your legs together move your legs as if writing the alphabet with your toes. Do this til you can go twice through the alphabet without lowering the legs :)

I never thought of it as ab strength though, you want ab endurance.

That sounds painful - but worth a go I guess!

I finished a 25 SDK with no fins in 22 sec today. Gotta start somewhere.

Karl_S
October 18th, 2010, 09:07 AM
I finished a 25 SDK with no fins in 22 sec today. Gotta start somewhere.
How many kicks did that take?

couldbebetterfly
October 19th, 2010, 10:02 PM
How many kicks did that take?

38 :cane:

but today I did it in 34 kicks 21 sec :cheerleader:

Although I am just using the digital pace clock for time. I figured I've got enough time to drop that whole second increments would work for the foreseeable future.

On the plus side I am getting more consistent in my turns - warm-ups and stroke work = 4 SDK off each turn

Fast(ish) 100s 3 off, and 50s 4 off

This in turn has reduced the number of strokes I take per length, so I'm headed in the right direction :D

The Fortress
October 19th, 2010, 10:53 PM
Why not both? Consider a weak SDK - If the lower abs/lower back combo are stronger - you should be able to perform a more "robust" (bigger kick) SDK in a shorter/the same amount of time.
If you want to do it again and again (and again and again and again....etc..) you need to build the endurance.

In my case - I need to build both. A lot.

I vote for both.

You needs the total core for SDKs: abs, back, hip, glutes, thighs. And strength helps.

Though hanging leg lifts are good stuff. When you get good at this, you can start raising your legs all the way up to the bar.

Karl_S
October 20th, 2010, 08:42 AM
38 :cane:

but today I did it in 34 kicks 21 sec :cheerleader:


Indeed you are headed in the right direction!

This is also encouraging for me. My 22 kicks to go 15 yds translates to 36 kicks for 25 yds, so my DPK is comparable. Clearly I need to work on sustaining the SDK longer.

couldbebetterfly
October 20th, 2010, 02:42 PM
Indeed you are headed in the right direction!

This is also encouraging for me. My 22 kicks to go 15 yds translates to 36 kicks for 25 yds, so my DPK is comparable. Clearly I need to work on sustaining the SDK longer.

Keep at it - I sometimes find I float to the surface at around 20yds, so have worked on my breath control and doing the 25 is getting easier. Plus it is helping on coming out of the turns, I now don't think my lungs are about to burst after 3 SDKs.

fmracing
October 21st, 2010, 05:45 PM
Ok finally had a workout that I didn't feel like sprints instead of kicks.

SCM 25 SDK 16 sec 37 kicks from a push timing off the paceclock.

I workout twice a week 45 minutes / 2300m whichever comes first. :)

Karl_S
October 21st, 2010, 08:12 PM
Over the past few days I have been experimenting with my backstroke SDK. On repeat 100s backstroke I typically do about 3 SDK off every wall, so I tried some where I forced myself to do 4-5 SDK of every wall. They were about 2s slower per 100. Today I did 10 repeat 100s bacstroke and forced myself to do 7-8 SDK off every wall. They were about 10s slower per 100! In fact, I couldn't make my usual interval and had to increase my interval by :15/100. Now part of this is almost certainly due to the fact that I have done several very hard workouts this week. (Very hard for me - pretty mellow by the standards of many bloggers here.) I would have been slower today even at 3 SDK per wall, but I suspect that even when rested the time increase with increasing SDK would be significant. I don't like this trend. Last year I spent a lot of time working on my turns and I could see it translating into faster swims. This season I am spending a lot of time working my SDK and it seems to translating to slower swims. I don't like this picture at all.

The Fortress
October 21st, 2010, 08:58 PM
Over the past few days I have been experimenting with my backstroke SDK. On repeat 100s backstroke I typically do about 3 SDK off every wall, so I tried some where I forced myself to do 4-5 SDK of every wall. They were about 2s slower per 100. Today I did 10 repeat 100s bacstroke and forced myself to do 7-8 SDK off every wall. They were about 10s slower per 100! In fact, I couldn't make my usual interval and had to increase my interval by :15/100. Now part of this is almost certainly due to the fact that I have done several very hard workouts this week. (Very hard for me - pretty mellow by the standards of many bloggers here.) I would have been slower today even at 3 SDK per wall, but I suspect that even when rested the time increase with increasing SDK would be significant. I don't like this trend. Last year I spent a lot of time working on my turns and I could see it translating into faster swims. This season I am spending a lot of time working my SDK and it seems to translating to slower swims. I don't like this picture at all.

Karl,

SDKs aren't for everyone. They require flexibility, core strength and leg strength/endurance. For some, they can be counter-productive and slower. Or you can be better on your back or your belly. But I can say they don't happen overnight. It's really a long term project. And it depends, I think, somewhat on your kicking background. I've been doing kick intensive workouts for about 3 years now and I invest a lot of time in SDK work every day I'm in the water. (This is partly due to the shoulder saving nature of this type of practice.) I also think, for me, that kicking a lot with fins and a monofin helped improve and strengthen my SDK.

I don't think you should be discouraged yet. But you may need to assess how many SDKs are best or you. I don't see many masters doing 7-8 off turns on a 100 back. Or at least effectively.

couldbebetterfly
October 21st, 2010, 09:11 PM
Over the past few days I have been experimenting with my backstroke SDK. On repeat 100s backstroke I typically do about 3 SDK off every wall, so I tried some where I forced myself to do 4-5 SDK of every wall. They were about 2s slower per 100. Today I did 10 repeat 100s bacstroke and forced myself to do 7-8 SDK off every wall. They were about 10s slower per 100! In fact, I couldn't make my usual interval and had to increase my interval by :15/100. Now part of this is almost certainly due to the fact that I have done several very hard workouts this week. (Very hard for me - pretty mellow by the standards of many bloggers here.) I would have been slower today even at 3 SDK per wall, but I suspect that even when rested the time increase with increasing SDK would be significant. I don't like this trend. Last year I spent a lot of time working on my turns and I could see it translating into faster swims. This season I am spending a lot of time working my SDK and it seems to translating to slower swims. I don't like this picture at all.

Although I'm pretty new to this SDK lark, I have worked on my kick/core/SDK more since May than ever. Right now I am aiming for 3-4 really good SDKs off each turn in a race. Any more than that I think will be counter-productive. I've never been a great kicker, but must have had some good core strength for my fly, which I'm getting back.

I know when I do my 25s SDK (I tend to do 4 with fins, then 4 without once per week) I start out well, but half way down the pool my lungs hurt, the legs get faster and the momentum disappears! I'm sticking with the 25s as I can time them and count the kicks and it helps my lung capacity. But in the grand scheme of things you can only do 15yds anyhow.

:blah::blah: there I go again......but that's whats working for me now :)

Karl_S
October 23rd, 2010, 04:59 PM
Karl,
SDKs aren't for everyone. They require flexibility,
I'm ok on that count, for a guy at least.

core strength
Pretty good here I think, and I'm doing lots of planks.

and leg strength/endurance.
This may be more of a problem, but I think it is lung-capacity/breath control that is killing me.

... But I can say they don't happen overnight. It's really a long term project.
Yea, I first tried them about a year ago, and I've been working them seriously in almost every practice since about June.

...I don't think you should be discouraged yet. But you may need to assess how many SDKs are best or you. I don't see many masters doing 7-8 off turns on a 100 back. Or at least effectively.
Well that's encouraging. My kicking 100 back race plan is currently 5,4,3,2, but I'd like my SDK to be a weapon.

'gotta watch that Hill Taylor video 20 more times to keep my motivation up.

Karl_S
October 23rd, 2010, 05:16 PM
...I know when I do my 25s SDK (I tend to do 4 with fins, then 4 without once per week) I start out well, but half way down the pool my lungs hurt, the legs get faster and the momentum disappears! ...
Yea, I think you have nailed the central challenge. it's lung-capacity/breath-control. Last spring I was working with a coach who suggested that to improve breath control, so that I would be better able to handle more SDKs, I should take more strokes before breathing off every turn in practice. I went from 3 to 4 strokes off every wall and after a few months I did see some improvement, as in I mearly hurt, as opposed to me nearly going blind off each turn, but I discovered during the summer that I am faster at 3 strokes off each wall before the breath. 4 slows me down and I wind up taking more strokes per length too.

For many years I would breath every 5 stokes in practice in freestyle. Last year my training partner (triathlete) commented that I might go faster if I had more oxygen, pointing out that great distance swimmers breathe every cycle. I went to breathing every 3 strokes and, sure enough, its faster.

It seems clear to me that there is a pretty big speed penalty for depriving oneself of O2. Somehow I have to train myself so that penalty is less.

Karl_S
October 23rd, 2010, 05:22 PM
...I know when I do my 25s SDK (I tend to do 4 with fins, then 4 without once per week)
8x25/week? Good grief I must be a slow learner. I've been doing 16x25 per day, for like 3 months!

couldbebetterfly
October 23rd, 2010, 09:22 PM
8x25/week? Good grief I must be a slow learner. I've been doing 16x25 per day, for like 3 months!

Nah - I'm just lazy and they hurt!

Chris Stevenson
October 23rd, 2010, 09:55 PM
Yea, I think you have nailed the central challenge. it's lung-capacity/breath-control. Last spring I was working with a coach who suggested that to improve breath control, so that I would be better able to handle more SDKs, I should take more strokes before breathing off every turn in practice. I went from 3 to 4 strokes off every wall and after a few months I did see some improvement, as in I mearly hurt, as opposed to me nearly going blind off each turn, but I discovered during the summer that I am faster at 3 strokes off each wall before the breath. 4 slows me down and I wind up taking more strokes per length too.

For many years I would breath every 5 stokes in practice in freestyle. Last year my training partner (triathlete) commented that I might go faster if I had more oxygen, pointing out that great distance swimmers breathe every cycle. I went to breathing every 3 strokes and, sure enough, its faster.

It seems clear to me that there is a pretty big speed penalty for depriving oneself of O2. Somehow I have to train myself so that penalty is less.

I think the most effective way to train for lung capacity for SDKs is simply to take more of them off each wall in practice, especially at race pace. I don't know that taking more strokes before you breathe (or adopting a breathing pattern where you breathe less) is as effective.


My 22 kicks to go 15 yds translates to 36 kicks for 25 yds, so my DPK is comparable. Clearly I need to work on sustaining the SDK longer.

I know you are focusing on lung capacity, but I think your DPK is a problem. 36 kicks for a 25 seems a lot; I'm usually at 19-20 kicks. How is your ankle flexibility? And maybe you can tighten your streamline?

fmracing
October 24th, 2010, 06:24 PM
For these times, are you guys kicking on your front or back? Does it matter as far as speed?

bzaks1424
October 24th, 2010, 06:26 PM
For these times, are you guys kicking on your front or back? Does it matter as far as speed?

Depends on whether or not you need to breath!
:drowning:

Karl_S
October 24th, 2010, 08:25 PM
For these times, are you guys kicking on your front or back? Does it matter as far as speed?
'funny you should ask that. At Friday evening's practice I had the coach (actually a substitute coach) time me for some 10yd SDKs. I was very surprised to find that I was 0.5s faster on my front than on my back. It feels faster on the back. We did multiple tests with very consistent results.

Jimbosback
October 24th, 2010, 09:57 PM
For these times, are you guys kicking on your front or back? Does it matter as far as speed?

Front.

couldbebetterfly
October 24th, 2010, 10:32 PM
For these times, are you guys kicking on your front or back? Does it matter as far as speed?

Front too, although once I improve some more I plan to work a bit on my back. Just so I have less armstrokes to do on my back when it comes to IMs

Karl_S
October 26th, 2010, 05:36 PM
...
I know you are focusing on lung capacity, but I think your DPK is a problem. 36 kicks for a 25 seems a lot; I'm usually at 19-20 kicks. How is your ankle flexibility? And maybe you can tighten your streamline?
Thanks for the feedback. It does sound like DPK needs work. My ankle flexibility is quite good, I think, but perhaps I should compare my ankle flexibility to that of the kids on the University team, instead of to the runners and triathletes I see in the pool regularly...

-streamline can certainly use improvement, the substitute coach told me so juat last Friday.

So I was on travel for the past couple of days. One thing this SDK business has done for swimmers is give us something useful to practice in a tiny hotel pool. The one where I was staying paced off at about 9 yds. I did about 100 "lengths" yesterday and played a lot with SDK-DPK. My "natural" kick count was 5 on the front and 7 on the back, but I could get this down to 3-4 on the front and 5 on the back by working DPK. This seems worth more experimentation.

ande
October 27th, 2010, 12:26 PM
that was a 200 LCM fl
I got a little carried away that first 100
I really needed to use easy speed

at 2008 SCY Nats in austin
a team mate did the 200 fl & split it
28 32 36 44

also wanted to remind folks about HELP! My SDK is Horrible!



ow ow ow ow ow my brain hurts make it stop

Karl_S
November 23rd, 2010, 08:09 PM
Hey, a little progress! Today I completed a 25 SCY SDK for the first time ever! and I did it twice! (both on my stomach.)

The first time took 40 kicks. The second time I rode the glide on each kick and completed the 25 in 31 kicks. I did not time myself.

...so why did I make it finally? I think that there were a lot of factors: First, I was pretty well rested. Although I did weights yesterday and this morning before swimming, I hadn't swum since Saturday. I think the biggest factor was that while I work my SDK at the end of practice, after 3500+ yds of swimming, today, I was swimming with my 8 yo daughter, so my swim "workout" was not much more than my usual warmup. Another benefit was that I was at a pool that has lines painted both directions. This gave me a better indication of how far I had progressed. The first time I didn't even intend to go a full 25, and almost gave up near the end, but then saw the last line and realized that a few more good kicks would do it.

Now I need to time myself and work on improving my speed.

I found that the limiting factor on my back was running out of air. Eventually I could not hold back the water any longer and water would flood my nose and estuation tubes. This is not compatible with going fast.

ElaineK
November 23rd, 2010, 09:31 PM
Way to go, Karl! :applaud: Hey, regarding SDK on your back, you might want to pick up a nose clip and give that a try. I bought one, because I had trouble with the same issue on backstroke starts. As a breaststroker, my backstroke :censor: , but I wanted to compete in a pentathlon which required me swimming backstroke. I got used to the nose clip quickly (after the initial clastrophobic feeling) and now use it whenever I swim backstroke (except in IM) or SDK on my back. Give it a try; I bet you will do great with it!

Good luck!
:cheerleader:

Speedo
November 24th, 2010, 09:40 AM
at 2008 SCY Nats in austin
a team mate did the 200 fl & split it
28 32 36 44
Got video?

ande
November 24th, 2010, 10:41 AM
8 x 25 / week?
Good grief I must be a slow learner.
I've been doing 16 x 25 per day, for like 3 months!

Doing only 8 25's SDK a week is probably not enough to improve

doing 16 x 25 per day might be too much
consider doing 8 x 25 SDK FAST on 1:30 each day

ande
December 1st, 2010, 04:52 AM
yesterday Tue Nov 30 2010 I did some timed SDKs in practice wearing a yingfa jammer
longhorn aquatics coach doug rusk timed me


15 M SDK fast for time
from a flip turn start
went 7.4

200 ish easy

15 M SDK fast for time
from a push off start
went 7.0

200 ish easy

25 y SDK fast
getting 15 M & 25 y times
from a roll start off blocks
went 5.1, 10.1

200 ish easy

50 SDK fast for time
getting splits at
15, 25, 35 & 50
5.4, 11.4,
18.9 (7.5), 23.9 (12.5)

200 ISH EASY

from my Nov 30 2010 workout (http://www.usms.org/forums/blog.php?b=12628)

ande
December 1st, 2010, 05:34 AM
Chris Stevenson continues to impress me with his kick/SDK sets, especially his hypoxic stuff. He seems to be quite hung in the lung, or mentally tough, well conditioned and slightly crazy. This type of training allows him to maintain high SDK counts in his 200 races. Quite challenging. Might need a don't-try-this-at-home warning. (or training on your own)
His WOs are Definitely worth checking out at his blog (http://www.usms.org/forums/blog.php?u=6428)


here's some of his recent impressive sets:
NO FINS


Hypoxic Kick (600/2800)
10 x 50 on 1:05, odds fast kick evens easy swim
-- did all these no-board hypoxic kicking, about 90% effort
-- alternated between back (18 kicks, breathe, flip, then no-breather) and fly (breathe at open turn)
-- goal was to go 27s on the back, 29s on the fly, and that's exactly what I did


Kick Set (750/3300)
8 x 75 back kick on 1:30, two sets of
#1 25 easy, 25 hypoxic, 25 easy
#2 25 hypoxic, 25 easy, 25 hypoxic
#3 same as #1
#4 hard
-- went about 55s on 1-3 & 5-7 (except on #6 my mind wandered and I went 48); went 42-43 on the fast ones


Kick Set (700/3550)
14 x 50 on 1:00, odds strong kick, evens easy swim
-- alternated the kicks between back and fly.
-- the back was 18 SDK, surface & breath, flip and then a no-breather. I held mostly 27s, a few 26s sprinkled in there.
-- the fly was front SDK, breath during the open turn flip but no-breather otherwise. I held mostly 28s, a couple 29s sprinkled in there.


Hard Hypoxic Kicking (1000/3000)
4 x 100 back kick on 2:00
-- 16 SDKs off the walls
-- wanted to hold 1:05s or better
-- went 1:05/1:03/1:03/1:02


SDK Pyramid
"pyramid" (goal is, as always, to hold at a pace of 15 sec/25 or better; I've only succeeded once before, and didn't succeed today). I did this all backstroke.

25 kick on 0:30 (no-breather; went 13)
50 kick on 1:00 (18 SDKs off walls; 28)
75 kick on 1:30 (17 SDKs; 44)
100 kick on 2:00 (16 SDKs except on last wall did 14; 1:01)
75 kick on 1:30 (17/17/15 SDKs; 45)
50 kick on 1:00 (18/17; 29)
25 kick (no-breather sprint; 12)
-- didn't seem to "have it" on the hypoxic for this 2nd set. Maybe I was just tired from the first set


Kick Set (850/3300)
4 x 100 back kick on 1:45 (held 1:05s, 17-18 SDKs off walls)
50 easy on 1:00
4 x 100 fly kick w/ board on 1:45 (skipped one, goofing around; 1:10-11s on others)
100 easy


Kick Set (500/2800)
8 x ?? on 1:15
-- Mark said the emphasis was on staying underwater. Gee...
-- did backstroke on all these. Decided to do 50s and try to descend the times (still tired from the previous set when I started this set) rather than do 75s with less rest
-- did 18 dolphin kicks off both walls, basically going to the flags. Went 30/30/29/29 then all 28s.


Desc 200s Kick (900/3500)
4 x 200 descend kick on 3:00
-- did these backstroke kick
-- went 2:42 (10 kicks off walls), 2:33 (11 kicks), 2:26 (11-12 kicks), 2:17 (12 kicks). Worked the last one pretty good.


Pretty Hard Kick Set (900/3600)
200 kick fast on back on 3:00 (12 SDKs off walls, went 2:19)
50 easy on 1:30
200 kick fast dolphin with board on 3:00 (2:25)
50 easy on 1:30
100 kick fast on back on 1:30 (16 SDKs, went 59)
50 easy on 1:30
100 kick fast dolphin with board on 1:30 (1:07)
150 easy


Hypoxic Kick Change-up (1000/3600)
2 x 4 x 100 on 2:00, 75 kick + 25 easy.
-- This was all backstroke kick.
-- The 1st 50 of the 75 kick was a "hard cruise," 16 SDKs, about 30 sec. Then flip and do the next 25 kick fast no-breather. Total time was 43-44 sec on all of them
-- idea was to simulate the last 1-2 walls of a backstroke race.
-- took 100 easy on about 2:00 between the two sets of 4x100


Fast Kicking (1000/3300)
Went back kick on all these.
4 x 100 on 2:00, 75 fast kick (get time), 25 easy swim (17 SDKs off walls, 47/45/44/43)
4 x 75 on 1:40, 50 fast kick, 25 easy swim (18 SDKs, breathe+flip then no-breather, went 26s)
4 x 50 on 1:20, 25 fast kick, 25 easy swim (no-breathers, went 12s)
100 easy

Chris Stevenson
December 1st, 2010, 12:14 PM
Chris Stevenson continues to impress me with his kick/SDK sets, especially his hypoxic stuff. He seems to be quite hung in the lung, or mentally tough, well conditioned and slightly crazy. This type of training allows him to maintain high SDK counts in his 200 races. Quite challenging. Might need a don't try this at home or training on your own warning.

"Hung in the lung" got me to chuckle...

While one can certainly work on dolphin kick while on the surface, I don't think anything quite matches the effectiveness of being under the water. Quite aside from the hypoxic aspect, which isn't for everyone, you have a full "column" of water to push against in both directions and you also can work on maintaining a very tight streamline. Surfacing kills SDK speed.

But the lack of air is, um, troubling. One good option that works for Fortress is to use fins. Even if you can't do (say) a full lap underwater normally, it might be quite easy to do with fins. The greater speed can also give you some feedback to help you find a good streamline position b/c you might be able to feel where the rushing water is hitting. It can also help with ankle flexibility, which is probably the most important key go having good SDK speed.

But you can certainly work on dolphin kicking with a board, too. When I was in college that's ALL I did, I didn't know any differently, but I had a faster dolphin kick then than I do know. The important thing is to work your kick sets with intensity, don't view them as breaks between swim sets that are more important.

You can also use a FINIS snorkel combined with the FINIS "alignment kickboard (http://www.finisinc.com/P-105030/Alignment-Kickboard)" to work on good streamline position without worrying about air. It still isn't as good as being underwater but if you work it hard, it is still beneficial to your SDK, in my opinion.

ande
December 1st, 2010, 04:50 PM
hey Chris,

glad "Hung in the lung" got you to chuckle...

proper depth & "columns " of water to push against in both directions is very important, this is why misty hyman and many other fast SDKers kick on their sides

maintaining a very tight streamline is critical as well
Surfacing does kill SDK speed.

lack of air is quite troubling.
Fins can be hugely helpful

ankle flexibility is key to having good SDK speed but I'd also throw in foot flexibility in the sense of how well can your toes without trying.
as is feel for the water with your feet and shins

working kick sets with intensity is the gospel truth
can we get an AMEN?
kick sets are not breaks between swim sets
they aren't casual kick chat opps
on kick sets.
swimmers need to kick fast and hard and gasp on the wall between efforts

Redbird Alum
December 2nd, 2010, 04:33 PM
...
working kick sets with intensity is the gospel truth
can we get an AMEN?

kick sets are not breaks between swim sets
they aren't casual kick chat opps
on kick sets.
swimmers need to kick fast and hard and gasp on the wall between efforts

AMEN

I work with younger age groupers, and we try to stress all the above. Sometimes they would rather have another coach than me on kick days.

What are your thoughts on pushing the hypoxic SDK kicking with younger swimmers?

ande
December 3rd, 2010, 02:30 PM
thank you
thoughts on pushing the hypoxic SDK kicking with younger swimmers?
what do you mean by younger?
8 - 10, 11 - 12, 13 & up
I'd stay safe & with in the groups capabilities
Coaches should consider incremental pushing
5 meters SDK, then 10, then half way, then 15 meters, then 20 then 25.
Coaches get to decide

how swimmers start

how much rest they get between efforts (time & easy swims)

how many kicks swimmers take or how far they can go
how much kicking how much swimming

ie
200 bk with 8 fast kicks off each wall, swimming easy
is a SDK set


The kids can also play games like

SDK Whale Attack
which is like sharks and minnow or whale attack BUT
the minnows can only SDK across the pool, preferably no breathers from a dive, if the pool is deep enough.
whoever is IT has to catch the minnows underwater and pull them to the surface to be considered caught.





AMEN
I work with younger age groupers, and we try to stress all the above. Sometimes they would rather have another coach than me on kick days.
What are your thoughts on pushing the hypoxic SDK kicking with younger swimmers?

Redbird Alum
December 3rd, 2010, 04:58 PM
thank you
thoughts on pushing the hypoxic SDK kicking with younger swimmers?
what do you mean by younger?
8 - 10, 11 - 12, 13 & up
I'd stay safe & with in the groups capabilities
Coaches should consider incremental pushing
5 meters SDK, then 10, then half way, then 15 meters, then 20 then 25.
...
ie
200 bk with 8 fast kicks off each wall, swimming easy
is a SDK set

The kids can also play games like

SDK Whale Attack
which is like sharks and minnow or whale attack BUT
the minnows can only SDK across the pool, preferably no breathers from a dive, if the pool is deep enough.
whoever is IT has to catch the minnows underwater and pull them to the surface to be considered caught.


Thanks, Ande.

I have kids in all those ranges (and at varying levels of skill), so the "developmental" approach seems to make the most sense.
I like the idea of blending SDK into the longer sets.
Great idea about the Whale Attack game.
Appreciate your feedback.

couldbebetterfly
December 3rd, 2010, 08:20 PM
Doing only 8 25's SDK a week is probably not enough to improve



...its all al matter of perspective really - starting from nothing actually completing all 8 is a definite improvement. Next step is speeding them up.

And as I'm only in the pool 2 x per week I guess I can say I do SDKs in half my practices :D

Next week I'm going to do some for time on my side - hopefully they'll be faster - they certainly feel faster off a turn.

couldbebetterfly
December 9th, 2010, 10:46 PM
So with fins on my side 17 sec for the 25 vs 18 on my front.

Without fins, I couldn't make the length sideways, not through lack of air - I just popped up to the surface at about 18-20 yds.

Still a long way to go......

The Fortress
December 9th, 2010, 10:54 PM
Nick Thoman on SDKs:

YouTube - Underwater Backstroke Kick with David Marsh and Nick Thoman

velospeed2002
December 10th, 2010, 02:06 PM
Any other SDK tips for younger swimmers?

My 8 year old son LOVES to dolphin and uses it to his advantage in meets, typically gaining a body length or more on breakout, especially backstroke. He can easily dolphin underwater for 25 yards (timed him at about 15 seconds a few weeks ago). But it seems very few of his peers use SDK at all.

He really wants advice, but I'm a latecomer to swimming and definitely not good at dolphining. His coaches, while recognizing that he is very good at it, don't really work on underwater swimming much at his age.

I always tell him to just listen to his coaches. They did tell him to work on SDKing longer on each turn. Any other suggestions I can pass on?

ande
December 14th, 2010, 02:58 PM
SDK tips for younger swimmers

SDK is Streamline Dolphin Kick, some call them underwaters.
It's a fast fun way to move through the pool

SDK is PLAY, have fun

Push off the wall as hard as you can

Streamline as skinny as you can

Dolphin kick

Perfect your technique and timing

ask your coach to time you for 15 meters and 25 yards or meters

Count your kicks, figure out how many kicks you should do in each of your races.

Pretend you're a dolphin

SDK in every practice whether your coach tells you to or not

SDK on your belly, side, & back

Become so great at it that you use it in your races and it helps you swim faster.

WATCH videos of the best swimmers in the world and copy them.
I'll post some links

How many SDKs can you do before you run out of air?

How far can you go?

How fast can you go?

SDK IS FUN!





Any other SDK tips for younger swimmers?

My 8 year old son LOVES to dolphin and uses it to his advantage in meets, typically gaining a body length or more on breakout, especially backstroke. He can easily dolphin underwater for 25 yards (timed him at about 15 seconds a few weeks ago). But it seems very few of his peers use SDK at all.

He really wants advice, but I'm a latecomer to swimming and definitely not good at dolphining. His coaches, while recognizing that he is very good at it, don't really work on underwater swimming much at his age.

I always tell him to just listen to his coaches. They did tell him to work on SDKing longer on each turn. Any other suggestions I can pass on?

velospeed2002
December 14th, 2010, 06:00 PM
Thanks Ande, those are great! I'll pass them on.

Here's a short clip of him:
YouTube - 25 yard underwater dolphin kicking

He loves it, and says he feels like a dolphin!

I'm trying to use SDK more in my swimming.

ande
December 17th, 2010, 11:10 PM
looks great
suggest you shoot him with an underwater camera

here's some youtubes for him to watch

YouTube - 100m Butterfly, 13th FINA Championships in Rome, Phelps, Cavic, Munoz

race begins around 3:00 in

YouTube - Michael Phelps turn


YouTube - Michael Phelps freestyle multi angle camera


Hill Taylor 23.10 LCM SDK (http://www.floswimming.org/videos/coverage/view_video/235153/186553)

YouTube - Phelps Rallies Past Crocker in 100-fly


YouTube - Backstroke - Underwater Dolphin - Size



Thanks Ande, those are great! I'll pass them on.

Here's a short clip of him:
YouTube - 25 yard underwater dolphin kicking (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0Am7Vl75fY)

He loves it, and says he feels like a dolphin!

I'm trying to use SDK more in my swimming.

Karl_S
January 6th, 2011, 08:46 PM
So with fins on my side 17 sec for the 25 vs 18 on my front...
Seems like we are at similar stages of SDK development. I'm curious; what is your time, on your front, with no fins?

I was at :25 today. Took 30 kicks. I did another in 27 kicks, but forgot to time it.

Are you using SDK in races yet?

Karl_S
January 6th, 2011, 09:09 PM
First the good news. Today I went a full 25 SDK in :25 on 30 kicks. (My lowest kick count ever is 27, but I think it was slower.) When I first completed a full 25 about 6 weeks ago it took me 40 kicks. That's progress! I have also been timing 10 yd SKDs, (when I can find someone to time me). I am more than a full second faster than I was several months ago. I like that trend.

In comparison, however, I can flutter kick a 25 in :19. (Probably faster actually, I haven't tested that in a few months because I have been working on other things.) This suggests that my flutter kick is faster than my SDK.

So I did some testing. I was swimming repeat 100s backstroke, using 3 SDK per wall. After doing 7 with very consistent times, I decided to push it harder. #8 was 2s faster, and I noticed that I didn't use 3 SDk on every turn. I thought, "that's interesting, I will do only 1 or 2 SDK off each wall and see what happens". #9 was another 1s faster. I decided to skip the SDKs entirely on the last one. #10 was 2s faster yet.

Today was my second day back in the pool after much more of a break than I planned, owing to a head cold, so maybe this isn't great data, but it strongly suggests that I should not be doing SDK in races yet (except possibly on the start, I think they are a little effective on my start).

Back to the pool tomorrow...

ande
January 7th, 2011, 10:35 AM
Hey Karl,

congrats on improving your SDK kick count for your 25
how did you start? from a push or dive?
what sort of suit did you wear?
How much did you rest before testing it?

if you SDK a 25 yards in 25 seconds with 30 kicks, you have some efficiency issues
I think Chris Stevenson & I do 18 - 20 kicks in a 25 at race pace.

Right now your flutter kick is much faster than your SDK

Sight unseen I can't really tell you what your SDK technique issues are or give you suggestions on how to fix them other than:

+ keep doing fast 15 & 25 SDK's with lots of rest
to see if you can improve your speed
TEST with REST

+ do small amplitude SDKs (too much knee bend might be slowing you down)

+ increase your frequency
you did 30 kicks in 25 seconds
30/25 = 1.2 (so you're doing 1.2 kick cycles each second)
a few weeks ago I SDKed 25 in 9.8 & probably did 20 kicks
20/9.8 = 2.0 ( i did 2.0 kick cycles each second, but if you remove the dive and the glide and start the watch when I start kicking, it's probably a bit faster)

+ stretch your feet & ankles to improve your effortless toe point,

+ do DPK SDKs where you focus on efficiency & exaggerate your glide,
find out how few kicks it takes you to SDK across the pool

+ how's your pushoff & your streamline
PUSH OFF HARD
STREAMLINE SKINNY

+ remember SFF Tip 165 Build a Better Boat

ONLY SDK in RACES if IT'S FASTER & a better use of your energy.



First the good news. Today I went a full 25 SDK in :25 on 30 kicks. (My lowest kick count ever is 27, but I think it was slower.) When I first completed a full 25 about 6 weeks ago it took me 40 kicks. That's progress! I have also been timing 10 yd SKDs, (when I can find someone to time me). I am more than a full second faster than I was several months ago. I like that trend.

In comparison, however, I can flutter kick a 25 in :19. (Probably faster actually, I haven't tested that in a few months because I have been working on other things.) This suggests that my flutter kick is faster than my SDK.

So I did some testing. I was swimming repeat 100s backstroke, using 3 SDK per wall. After doing 7 with very consistent times, I decided to push it harder. #8 was 2s faster, and I noticed that I didn't use 3 SDk on every turn. I thought, "that's interesting, I will do only 1 or 2 SDK off each wall and see what happens". #9 was another 1s faster. I decided to skip the SDKs entirely on the last one. #10 was 2s faster yet.

Today was my second day back in the pool after much more of a break than I planned, owing to a head cold, so maybe this isn't great data, but it strongly suggests that I should not be doing SDK in races yet (except possibly on the start, I think they are a little effective on my start).

Back to the pool tomorrow...

Karl_S
January 7th, 2011, 07:50 PM
Ande, thanks for taking the time to comment. You ask:


Hey Karl,

congrats on improving your SDK kick count for your 25
how did you start? from a push or dive?
what sort of suit did you wear?
How much did you rest before testing it?

All my tests were from a push.
I wear a Speedo endurance brief.
All the SDK tests are at the end of practice.
The only time I did it rested was the very first time that I actually completed a full 25 SDK, about 6 weeks ago. I wore a jammer that day too.



if you SDK a 25 yards in 25 seconds with 30 kicks, you have some efficiency issues
I think Chris Stevenson & I do 18 - 20 kicks in a 25 at race pace.

Chris mentioned that too. I have been, and will continue, working on DPK



Right now your flutter kick is much faster than your SDK

Sight unseen I can't really tell you what your SDK technique issues are or give you suggestions on how to fix them other than:

+ keep doing fast 15 & 25 SDK's with lots of rest
to see if you can improve your speed
TEST with REST

OK, I see that I should test rested some times. I'll probably keep testing 10 & 25 SDKs. 10, because that is the distance I have been testing for several months now so I can compare and see improvement. It also seems like a good goal distance for racing. 15 yds SDK in a race is pretty unimaginable to me just now.



+ do small amplitude SDKs (too much knee bend might be slowing you down)

+ increase your frequency
...
+ stretch your feet & ankles to improve your effortless toe point,

+ do DPK SDKs where you focus on efficiency & exaggerate your glide,
find out how few kicks it takes you to SDK across the pool

+ how's your pushoff & your streamline
PUSH OFF HARD
STREAMLINE SKINNY

+ remember SFF Tip 165 Build a Better Boat (http://www.usms.org/forums/showpost.php?p=73330&postcount=601)

ONLY SDK in RACES if IT'S FASTER & a better use of your energy.
Thanks for the tips. One interesting thing, every now and then my SDK will seem to hit some "magic spot" and I go shooting down the pool for several kicks. I'm trying to figure out what happens when I get these (very occasional) "magic" events. I am pretty sure kick amplitude and frequency have something to do with it. It's like I occasionally "hit" the perfect combination. Oh, another odd thing. These "magic" events only happen on my back, but my SDK is faster on my front. I've tested that many times with the same result.

Today I was talking with one of the University swimmers who feels SDK is one of his strengths. He has size 13 feet! (mine are 8.) Does the Americans with Disabilities Act allow me to use flippers?:bolt:

ElaineK
January 7th, 2011, 09:16 PM
Today I was talking with one of the University swimmers who feels SDK is one of his strengths. He has size 13 feet! (mine are 8.) Does the Americans with Disabilities Act allow me to use flippers?:bolt:

Hey, Karl, I can relate; the width of my feet are AAA and my heals are AAAAAA! Not only do I have a tough time finding shoes to fit properly without my heals slipping out; my feet don't catch as much water as other swimmers' feet on the kick. :badday:

couldbebetterfly
January 7th, 2011, 10:56 PM
Seems like we are at similar stages of SDK development. I'm curious; what is your time, on your front, with no fins?

I was at :25 today. Took 30 kicks. I did another in 27 kicks, but forgot to time it.

Are you using SDK in races yet?

Karl, my time before Christmas on my front, no fins was 22s with about 30 kicks. I'm having an SDK break right now, but will be back to it in a week or so. I do plan to use it when I race the 100 free next week as I find I get good, fast distance off my turns with 3 or 4 kicks. This will be my first race since the summer season so will be interesting to see how I have improved (if at all that is!).

When I do a full 25 SDK, I feel I do a reasonable 15 yds then struggle with the final part.

I have really narrow, small-ish (US 7.5) feet, but on the other hand (or foot!) my ankles are really flexible. I always thought small thin feet put me at a disadvantage on kick - my 50 flutter kick from a push is only 48:cane:. (Then again my PR for 50 free is only 30.3)

I know what you mean about the "magic spot" - Do you SDK off your turns in warm-up and every freestyle set? I have been concentrating on this and find I'm hitting that spot (2/3/4 SDK off the wall-into flutter-into stroke ) a lot more often now than a few months back.

havepoolwillswim
January 8th, 2011, 02:00 AM
YouTube - Michael Phelps turn

Thanks for posting this video, Ande. The one thing that caught my attention was that his body remains relatively rigid and straight. And it's as though his legs from below the knee act as a pair of fins- it's not just his feet. Maybe this is really obvious to most when they watch it, but I have seen this video many times and this just occurred to me.

ande
January 8th, 2011, 11:40 AM
hey there

phelps has an excellent SDK and that slow motion video captures it well
he has more amplitude (up & down width of movement) and a
lower frequency (fewer SDK cycles per sec) than many swimmers
his DPK is quite impressive

he and many excellent SDKers keep their upper bodies rigid

I've written about the shin fin kicking technique
Tip 190 the Shin Fin Kicking Technique

Phelps has a bit of movement from his hips to his thighs, but it's mostly from his knee down.
He also has excellent flexibility in his:
1) feet / ankles (fins) (large flexible floppy feet are a plus)
2) knees (for hyperextension), &
3) shoulders (which helps his outstanding streamline which reduces resistance)
this video highlights his outstanding streamline & SDK
YouTube - Michael Phelps freestyle multi angle camera

He's a great one to model your technique after


YouTube - Michael Phelps turn (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9eDAQxL5cA)

Thanks for posting this video, Ande. The one thing that caught my attention was that his body remains relatively rigid and straight. And it's as though his legs from below the knee act as a pair of fins- it's not just his feet. Maybe this is really obvious to most when they watch it, but I have seen this video many times and this just occurred to me.

couldbebetterfly
January 8th, 2011, 12:41 PM
Ande. The one thing that caught my attention was that his body remains relatively rigid and straight.

That is what I struggle with - I can feel I'm losing my streamline after about 10 yards then it all falls apart towards the end of the 25!

However on the bright side, I can now keep a good streamline for 10 yds, which is much more than 9 or so months ago.

havepoolwillswim
January 8th, 2011, 01:43 PM
This is from Ande's "shin fin kicking" post:

He said that Ian Crocker recently flutter kicked 50 scy from a push with a board in 24.6 and Garrett Weber Gale went 25.2

He said Ian could flutter kick a 100 with a board in 53 seconds.

havepoolwillswim
January 8th, 2011, 01:46 PM
^^^^ I've often thought Ian Crocker's genes should have been tested because I'm convinced he is part dolphin.

Jimbosback
January 11th, 2011, 11:57 PM
Out of nowhere, at the end of my kick sets in my last practice, I cranked out a 25 SDK in 14 kicks -- not timed, as I was going for DPK and it was the end of a long workout anyway, but it felt very fast and I finished the length easily without breathing. I went back in 16 kicks, but I had to breathe once.

What I did was streamline extra hard and lower my head more than usual. With each kick, I could feel a surge of water pushing on my chest, propelling me. I am not sure I can repeat it, but will try this again on my next kick day and check times vs DPK. It feels like I've discovered something. :banana:

The Fortress
January 12th, 2011, 09:17 AM
I've written about the shin fin kicking technique
Tip 190 the Shin Fin Kicking Technique (http://www.usms.org/forums/showpost.php?p=115245)



Great tip. I've noticed that, when I do long kick sets or very fast ones, I sometimes feel like I'm developing shin splits like a runner.

I recommend buying a monofin to improve your dolphin kicking. I love the Finis Shooter monofin. And I recently purchased the new Finis Foil monofin, which is all rubber. (Hence you won't slice your foot open if you drop it.)

http://www.finisinc.com/s.nl/c.1144330/it.A/id.1443/.f

Karl_S
January 14th, 2011, 09:06 PM
Karl, my time before Christmas on my front, no fins was 22s with about 30 kicks. I'm having an SDK break right now, but will be back to it in a week or so. I do plan to use it when I race the 100 free next week as I find I get good, fast distance off my turns with 3 or 4 kicks. This will be my first race since the summer season so will be interesting to see how I have improved (if at all that is!).
How did the 100 free go?


When I do a full 25 SDK, I feel I do a reasonable 15 yds then struggle with the final part.
Yea, I agree. Mine seems reasonable for a while, then loses effectiveness, especially if I float up to the surface.


I know what you mean about the "magic spot" - Do you SDK off your turns in warm-up and every freestyle set? I have been concentrating on this and find I'm hitting that spot (2/3/4 SDK off the wall-into flutter-into stroke ) a lot more often now than a few months back.
I only SDK dilligently on back and fly, but my workouts are more than 50% back, often 70-80% back. I occasionally do one SDK off the wall on free, but I don't see much point, my flutter kick is faster and my free is way faster so I'm not going to SDK in a freestyle race.

couldbebetterfly
January 16th, 2011, 03:57 PM
How did the 100 free go?




Ummm yeah it went! Swam it this morning 1.05.01 vs 1.04.21 in the summer. However the meet was tiny and I had no competition in the 100 free. (I was chasing, and caught the no 1 seed when I did that time in the summer) Got a meet record though!

On the plus side it was less off than my other 2 events, 50fly and 100IM, so perhaps the SDK did help.

Karl_S
January 18th, 2011, 08:45 PM
Ummm yeah it went! Swam it this morning 1.05.01 vs 1.04.21 in the summer. However the meet was tiny and I had no competition in the 100 free. (I was chasing, and caught the no 1 seed when I did that time in the summer) Got a meet record though!
Meet record, 0.8 off pb, all with nobody to chase. That's nothing to complain about, esp. if you have been changing your turn, i.e. using SDK. I wouldn't be surprised if a breakthrough swim is around the corner.

ande
November 30th, 2011, 04:06 PM
Some of the greatest SDK footage ever
Starts around 3:00 in
Rome 2009 - Men's 100 Fly finals - Phelps vs. Cavic
Rome 2009 - Men's 100 Fly finals - Phelps vs. Cavic - YouTube

Karl_S
December 18th, 2012, 03:35 PM
After a start or turn, when should a swimmer start to SDK?
It seems that the conventional wisdon is that one should start SDK (or kicking in general) when the glide speed off the wall drops to swimming speed. I've been thinking about this and I'm trying to convince myself that it might be better to start kicking when the glide speed drops below the slowest swimming speed during the entire race. Basically, one needs to maximize the average speed over the entire race. This approach assumes that one could use that tiny bit of extra kicking anywhere during the entire race. Would it not make sense to use it to relace the slowest section, not a faster section off the wall? It seems to me that the longer the race, the more sense this approach would make. Thoughts?

Chris Stevenson
December 18th, 2012, 04:14 PM
After a start or turn, when should a swimmer start to SDK?
It seems that the conventional wisdon is that one should start SDK (or kicking in general) when the glide speed off the wall drops to swimming speed. I've been thinking about this and I'm trying to convince myself that it might be better to start kicking when the glide speed drops below the slowest swimming speed during the entire race. Basically, one needs to maximize the average speed over the entire race. This approach assumes that one could use that tiny bit of extra kicking anywhere during the entire race. Would it not make sense to use it to relace the slowest section, not a faster section off the wall? It seems to me that the longer the race, the more sense this approach would make. Thoughts?

Well, my first thought is that you are over-thinking things only because we don't have accurate built-in speed gauges. Basically I start kicking when my instincts tell me to.

But in terms terms of physics, physiology or what have you, I don't know that your answer is correct. My thought would be to start kicking when you are at your kick speed (SDK or flutter or whatever). If you slow down more than that they you are using energy to get back up to that speed. It isn't just about speed it is about energy efficiency over the whole race too.

(And I think that basically may be when my brain tells me to start kicking, basically saying "you can go faster than this!" if I slowed down too much.)

Allen Stark
December 18th, 2012, 05:16 PM
Well, my first thought is that you are over-thinking things only because we don't have accurate built-in speed gauges. Basically I start kicking when my instincts tell me to.

But in terms terms of physics, physiology or what have you, I don't know that your answer is correct. My thought would be to start kicking when you are at your kick speed (SDK or flutter or whatever). If you slow down more than that they you are using energy to get back up to that speed. It isn't just about speed it is about energy efficiency over the whole race too.

(And I think that basically may be when my brain tells me to start kicking, basically saying "you can go faster than this!" if I slowed down too much.)

Yes.It is much easier and more efficient to slow deceleration than to accelerate.The whole point of SDK is that it is faster than surface swimming(if it isn't for you,don't do it.)Also you can only go 15M,(or until you need to breath), as SDK. You can't go back underwater after you surface,so make the most of it.

Chris Stevenson
December 18th, 2012, 07:32 PM
Yes.It is much easier and more efficient to slow deceleration than to accelerate.The whole point of SDK is that it is faster than surface swimming(if it isn't for you,don't do it.)Also you can only go 15M,(or until you need to breath), as SDK. You can't go back underwater after you surface,so make the most of it.

Seems like a question very similar to the one Karl posed is, when should I start my breaststroke pull-down?

Allen Stark
December 18th, 2012, 08:49 PM
Seems like a question very similar to the one Karl posed is, when should I start my breaststroke pull-down?
The "right"answer to that is, "as soon as you slow down to swimming speed."Unfortunately,as you noted,we don't carry speedometers.Its a matter of feel,it's sort of"when you feel yourself slowing down".It is totally subjective,but with practice and use of a stopwatch you can find what is fastest for you and how it feels.I heard one coach say"count to four after the pushoff,then pull-count to 3 after the pulldown and then kick."That may be best for a small percentage of swimmers,depending how fast you count while underwater(I can count really fast on the last turn of a 200 BR SCY or SCM.)
Now back to our previously scheduled SDK programming.

jaadams1
December 18th, 2012, 10:34 PM
After a start or turn, when should a swimmer start to SDK?
It seems that the conventional wisdon is that one should start SDK (or kicking in general) when the glide speed off the wall drops to swimming speed. I've been thinking about this and I'm trying to convince myself that it might be better to start kicking when the glide speed drops below the slowest swimming speed during the entire race. Basically, one needs to maximize the average speed over the entire race. This approach assumes that one could use that tiny bit of extra kicking anywhere during the entire race. Would it not make sense to use it to relace the slowest section, not a faster section off the wall? It seems to me that the longer the race, the more sense this approach would make. Thoughts?

My age group coach is constantly preaching to "ride the glide", meaning the explosive jump off the walls before beginning any kicking (or the pulldown in breaststroke). Why slow yourself down when you're already going the fastest you can right off the wall? You don't want to glide too long, but it's actually unnecessary to begin kicking of any kind too early off the walls.
Even a tight streamline glide can be better than an open poorly executed "superman" streamline w/ kicking.

jaadams1
December 18th, 2012, 10:37 PM
I heard one coach say"count to four after the pushoff,then pull-count to 3 after the pulldown and then kick."That may be best for a small percentage of swimmers,depending how fast you count while underwater(I can count really fast on the last turn of a 200 BR SCY or SCM.)

I go for maximum distance, and at times more maximum than my neighbor in the next lane over. :) I will actually wait and glide longer, waiting for him/her to take their pulldown, knowing that I carry excellent upperbody strength for a good pulldown. I then ride out that glide as well before I do my final kick and breakout. After that, well, the breaststrokers win the race...but in SCY/SCM I do my best to keep up with each following pullout. :D

Karl_S
December 20th, 2012, 08:51 PM
My age group coach is constantly preaching to "ride the glide", meaning the explosive jump off the walls before beginning any kicking (or the pulldown in breaststroke). Why slow yourself down when you're already going the fastest you can right off the wall? You don't want to glide too long, but it's actually unnecessary to begin kicking of any kind too early off the walls.
Even a tight streamline glide can be better than an open poorly executed "superman" streamline w/ kicking.
Indeed. I started to think about this because I have been watching a lot of age group swim meets recently and it appears to me that many kids start kicking too soon, (sometimes even in the air off the start!) and most start their breaststroke pullout waaaaay too soon. That made me wonder; when is the correct time to start kicking? I've never really thought about it. I just start kicking when instinct tells me to, like Chris says. I now think maybe I start kicking too soon in freestyle. I milk my breaststroke pullouts for all they are worth because my breaststroke is weak so I'm definitely not too soon there. I've been playing with my backstroke kickouts and now think maybe I start kicking too late. I need to find a coach with a watch...

habu987
December 29th, 2012, 07:41 PM
Going back to a topic from a page or two ago, I timed my 25 underwater SDK on my back today. From a push at about 90% effort, I went 17 seconds. I didn't count how many kicks I took. A few months ago, I did a 50 backstroke kick for time from a push, staying underwater and SDKing as long as possible--came up at the flags to take the flip stroke and then made it to just shy of the 15m mark off the turn before running out of air and switching to flutter kick. I did a 35.2 with a two stroke finish.

I do know that in general I don't get much DPK at all. When I race backstroke, 14 kicks off the start gets my breakout stroke right at the 15m mark. Right now I'm playing around with my SDK on my back, trying to see whether leading with my upper body or powering with my hips is more beneficial. For free and fly, I power from the hips, as I just can't seem to utilize my upper body unless I'm on my back.

rtodd
January 6th, 2013, 01:40 PM
In track all sprinters reach their maximum speed at 60-70 meters and they start to slow down. Whomever slows down the slowest appears to be accelerating because the other runners fall back. I think in swimming you want to start kicking early and hang onto that pushoff speed as long as possible.

jaadams1
January 6th, 2013, 06:45 PM
I think in swimming you want to start kicking early and hang onto that pushoff speed as long as possible.

But there is a point at which each swimmer should surface vs. trying to stay under for the full 15 meters allowed. Some people are excellent at SDKing and can maintain a swimming speed underwater, but others actually begin slowing down, even though they can still make the full 15 meters. Once you begin slowing down, you're better off to get to the surface and swim if you care about your speed.

rxleakem
January 6th, 2013, 07:20 PM
I have started to set SDK goals off each walls for the backstroke events, and I do more in the 50 than in the 200; I have timed myself with Ande's methods and am faster underwater, but I can't hold it together on the 200. Setting #'s off the walls has helped me to commit to staying with the underwaters before they start to be deleterious for the rest of the event.

Karl_S
January 6th, 2013, 08:07 PM
But there is a point at which each swimmer should surface vs. trying to stay under for the full 15 meters allowed. Some people are excellent at SDKing and can maintain a swimming speed underwater, but others actually begin slowing down, even though they can still make the full 15 meters. Once you begin slowing down, you're better off to get to the surface and swim if you care about your speed.
Yes. I have timed this over and over in practice. Zero SDK is the fastest (except off the start where 2-4 SDKs seem to be ok - not clearly faster than FK, but not cleary slower either). I'm convinced that I am doing something wrong in my SDK, but I haven't figure out what it is yet.

rtodd
January 6th, 2013, 08:24 PM
But there is a point at which each swimmer should surface vs. trying to stay under for the full 15 meters allowed. Some people are excellent at SDKing and can maintain a swimming speed underwater, but others actually begin slowing down, even though they can still make the full 15 meters. Once you begin slowing down, you're better off to get to the surface and swim if you care about your speed.

I absoultely agree with that. I was speaking about when, after the pushoff, you initiate your kicks. I think it should be pretty early and not wait to slow down before kicking, then surface when you slow down below your swim speed.

jaadams1
January 6th, 2013, 10:04 PM
I absoultely agree with that. I was speaking about when, after the pushoff, you initiate your kicks. I think it should be pretty early and not wait to slow down before kicking, then surface when you slow down below your swim speed.

I know that I am not the greatest at SDKing, but I can maintain a good enough speed for a short distance off the walls. I've also raced with others who I notice seem to stay under too long (and lose speed), thus affecting the total potential time for their swim.

ande
March 24th, 2015, 03:21 PM
any SDKers out there?
What's working?

fritznh
March 31st, 2015, 09:25 PM
any SDKers out there?
What's working?

Our coach took a look at Eddie Reese getting 6 guys into the finals of the 100 fly this year (WOW!) and decided we would do some dolphin kick work. That was this week, so it is not clear if it is working yet ;-), but she is devious and will probably get us to do it without us knowing it.

I also started spinning in a misguided attempt to drop a few pounds and instead gained six, all in my legs. It may have helped with backstroke, but I think sprinting a bunch this summer was probably more effective. I think what works is SDK every turn, every time (except only one in Breaststroke!). Still working on it...

Good luck at Nationals this year!

ande
April 8th, 2015, 01:56 PM
Hey Fritz,

Congrats on your recent 50 & 100 bk records, very fast.
Eddie has the team SDK every day, usually after warm up.

BTW Clark Smith didn't swim the 100 fly but went 46.5 last year and was 46.7ish as a HS SR the year before.
So he probably coulda gone 45 something at NCAAs.



Our coach took a look at Eddie Reese getting 6 guys into the finals of the 100 fly this year (WOW!) and decided we would do some dolphin kick work. That was this week, so it is not clear if it is working yet ;-), but she is devious and will probably get us to do it without us knowing it.

I also started spinning in a misguided attempt to drop a few pounds and instead gained six, all in my legs. It may have helped with backstroke, but I think sprinting a bunch this summer was probably more effective. I think what works is SDK every turn, every time (except only one in Breaststroke!). Still working on it...

Good luck at Nationals this year!

jrb8025
April 16th, 2015, 11:30 AM
Ande and others,
Did you read Bridger Bell's article on Dolphin Kick in the recent Swimming World (April edition)? What do you think? Anybody try his "Banana Peel" exercises?