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ElaineK
May 3rd, 2010, 09:45 PM
FYI: The time line and heat sheets are available! :bliss:

Just wondering, though... Can anybody out there explain how I (Elaine Krugman) got placed in Heat 3 of the 100 Yd Breaststroke (Lane 8). Based on my seed time and age, shouldn't I have been placed in Heat 7? If anybody out there has a clue, will you please explain it to me? Check out the seed times and ages in Heat 7 and see if I'm on the right track with my thinking...

Hey, Anna Lea, it looks like we'll be next to each other in the 100 and have one between us in the 50 Yd Breaststroke. :D You should have joined me in the 200 Yd Breaststroke! :agree:

ALM
May 3rd, 2010, 09:58 PM
Elaine,

It's because we're "leftovers." The software that does the seeding seeds full heats of each age group first, then basically sticks the leftover swimmers in other heats.

Think positive - we'll be done with the event that much sooner! :bliss:

Anna Lea

Bobinator
May 3rd, 2010, 10:24 PM
I haven't looked at the heat sheets but I assume they use pyramid seeding since it's a championship meet. The heats are seeded so each one (by entry time) would be a perfect pyramid if everyone swam their entry times.
This allows the fastest 6 or 8 in be in middle lanes in their heats.

pwolf66
May 4th, 2010, 12:54 PM
No, they do not do cicle seed for the top heats. It's seeded slowest to fastest by heat so the first heat is the slowest 10 swimmers and the last heat is the fastest 10 swimmers. It would really be nice if they did circle seed as this is championship meet.

osterber
May 4th, 2010, 12:56 PM
It's a quirk that happens with the seed-by-age algorithm.

You're in the 45-49 age group. The fastest 45-49 swimmers are in heat 12. Then heats 11 and heat 10. So the fastest 30 swimmers in the 45-49 age group fill heats 12, 11, 10.

There are 34 swimmers in the event aged 45-49. So the remaining 4 swimmers get scattered.

Mary Anne Savage and Susan Nolte end up in heat 7. They're the #31 and #32 seeds. Lanes 1-8 of that heat are the 50-54 year olds, and the two of them get lanes 9 and 10.

So that leaves you and Anna Lea to fit in somewhere.

Heat 6 starts the fastest 55-59 year olds. So the 55-59 year olds fill heat 6, and all of heat 5. No space yet. Then the 60-64 year olds fill all of heat 4. There are 11 swimmers in 60-64, so one person gets left in the cold. (Sue Cosper)

So then we get back to heat #3. Lanes 1-7 are filled with the remaining 55-59 year olds (There were 27 of them, so they fill heats 6 and 5, and then the leftovers fall back to 7 lanes of heat 3.) So now we've got 3 empty lanes to fill.

Lanes 8-9 get the two leftover 45-49 year olds (you and Anne Lea), and lane 10 is the one leftover 60-64 year old (Sue Cosper).

What stinks for you is that the algorithm does not require that all four leftovers in your age group swim together.

For details about how this works, see:

http://www.usms.org/rules/part1.pdf

Specifically rule 104.5.5, which talks about seeding at national championship meets. The line A(7) specifically talks about the 'leftovers'. The rule doesn't actually require that, with 4 leftovers, they be swum at least as pairs. In a 10-lane pool, there could be 9 'leftovers' in an age group. The rules, as far as I can see, allow for those 9 leftovers to be scattered among 9 different heats, so that they would all be swimming "by themselves" with regards to age group scoring.

-Rick

osterber
May 4th, 2010, 01:00 PM
No, they do not do cicle seed for the top heats. It's seeded slowest to fastest by heat so the first heat is the slowest 10 swimmers and the last heat is the fastest 10 heats. It would really be nice if they did circle seed as this is championship meet.

It would not make sense, though, to circle seed a timed final event. In a timed final event, the two fastest people should be swimming next to each other. If you circle seed a timed final event, then you have the #1, #2, and #3 seeds all swimming in different heats, and not swimming head-to-head.

Imagine if it were the 500 freestyle. You're the #2 seed. It's circle-seeded. The #1 seed swims in the heat after you. He beats you by 0.01 seconds. Wouldn't you have wanted to swim next to that person so you'd have the opportunity to not get out-touched in a 500 free?

-Rick

pwolf66
May 4th, 2010, 01:15 PM
It would not make sense, though, to circle seed a timed final event. In a timed final event, the two fastest people should be swimming next to each other. If you circle seed a timed final event, then you have the #1, #2, and #3 seeds all swimming in different heats, and not swimming head-to-head.

Imagine if it were the 500 freestyle. You're the #2 seed. It's circle-seeded. The #1 seed swims in the heat after you. He beats you by 0.01 seconds. Wouldn't you have wanted to swim next to that person so you'd have the opportunity to not get out-touched in a 500 free?

-Rick

I get it, I understand why. I guess I would like to see a Masters someday sometime that is prelims/finals.

aquageek
May 4th, 2010, 01:24 PM
I get it, I understand why. I guess I would like to see a Masters someday sometime that is prelims/finals.

I agree with wolf, would be nice to have this format at a meet or two a year.

Chris Stevenson
May 4th, 2010, 02:11 PM
I get it, I understand why. I guess I would like to see a Masters someday sometime that is prelims/finals.

Probably your best bet for this is to find a USA-S meet in that format and get them to agree to a dual sanction.

However, from a masters perspective, it is a pain in two respects:

-- if the course has a movable bulkhead, according to the rules you have to do measurements after each session in order for the times to be eligible for submission for Top Ten consideration. So that means twice a day, instead of once.

-- the tools we use for submission of results into the Meet Results Database (which, among other things, feeds into the "Current Event Rankings") are not set up to deal with meets in a Prelim/Final format. Before I submit it, I have to manually alter the SDIF file in a text editor. Not a big deal when it is just a couple swimmers in each season, but it would be a huge hassle if there were many such. Because there isn't much demand for such, updating the tools to deal with P/F has a pretty low priority right now compared to other projects.

As a swimmer: personally, I can live without prelims/finals, it makes meets much more tiring...

swimshark
May 4th, 2010, 02:28 PM
As a swimmer: personally, I can live without prelims/finals, it makes meets much more tiring...

I agree. Some of the younger people could do it but imagine an 80+ year old having to do trials and finals?

tjrpatt
May 4th, 2010, 02:34 PM
Probably your best bet for this is to find a USA-S meet in that format and get them to agree to a dual sanction.

However, from a masters perspective, it is a pain in two respects:

-- if the course has a movable bulkhead, according to the rules you have to do measurements after each session in order for the times to be eligible for submission for Top Ten consideration. So that means twice a day, instead of once.

-- the tools we use for submission of results into the Meet Results Database (which, among other things, feeds into the "Current Event Rankings") are not set up to deal with meets in a Prelim/Final format. Before I submit it, I have to manually alter the SDIF file in a text editor. Not a big deal when it is just a couple swimmers in each season, but it would be a huge hassle if there were many such. Because there isn't much demand for such, updating the tools to deal with P/F has a pretty low priority right now compared to other projects.

As a swimmer: personally, I can live without prelims/finals, it makes meets much more tiring...

Plus, USA-S meet directors look at you like you are crazy when you do multiple measurements. What, "Pools have to be measured!"

jroddin
May 4th, 2010, 03:10 PM
I agree. Some of the younger people could do it but imagine an 80+ year old having to do trials and finals?

Maybe we have 2010 Nationals as Trials and then 2011 Nationals as Finals ;)

osterber
May 4th, 2010, 03:38 PM
The biggest problem, I think, is that in a true trials/finals meet, you need to have a championship final heat for the top 1-8 (or 1-10) qualifiers. Since masters is scored by age group, you would need to have a finals for each separate age group! Otherwise, there is no real fair way to establish points.

If you do prelims/finals just by time (no age group), then consider the following scenario:

* For the example, only the top 8 return at night for finals. No consols, bonus, etc. Just top 8.
* In the 30-34 age group, there are swimmers A, B, and C.
* Event is the 50 free. In prelims, the following times are performed:
- Swimmer A: 30.00 (qualifies 7th overall)
- Swimmer B: 30.01 (qualifies 8th overall)
- Swimmer C: 30.02 (qualifies 9th overall, does not make finals)
* Then at night in finals, only Swimmer A and Swimmer B swim, since Swimmer C did not qualify. In finals, the following times are performed:
- Swimmer A: 30.50
- Swimmer B: 30.40

How do you score the event? Who won? Swimmer A had the fastest time overall, but it was from prelims. Swimmer B was faster in finals. Swimmer C was slowest in the morning, but was still faster than Swimmer A or B swam in finals.

It would also mean that you'd, practically, never get any 70+ swimmers ever qualifying for finals.

All in all, it creates a scenario where, as an expectation, there are different parameters for scoring points depending on your speed and age group. I.e., not a level playing field.

-Rick

no200fly
May 4th, 2010, 03:53 PM
I get it, I understand why. I guess I would like to see a Masters someday sometime that is prelims/finals.

I can barely swim an event once in a weekend.

The Fortress
May 4th, 2010, 03:58 PM
I can barely swim an event once in a weekend.

Ditto.

ElaineK
May 4th, 2010, 03:59 PM
It's a quirk that happens with the seed-by-age algorithm.

You're in the 45-49 age group. The fastest 45-49 swimmers are in heat 12. Then heats 11 and heat 10. So the fastest 30 swimmers in the 45-49 age group fill heats 12, 11, 10.

There are 34 swimmers in the event aged 45-49. So the remaining 4 swimmers get scattered.

Mary Anne Savage and Susan Nolte end up in heat 7. They're the #31 and #32 seeds. Lanes 1-8 of that heat are the 50-54 year olds, and the two of them get lanes 9 and 10.

So that leaves you and Anna Lea to fit in somewhere.

Heat 6 starts the fastest 55-59 year olds. So the 55-59 year olds fill heat 6, and all of heat 5. No space yet. Then the 60-64 year olds fill all of heat 4. There are 11 swimmers in 60-64, so one person gets left in the cold. (Sue Cosper)

So then we get back to heat #3. Lanes 1-7 are filled with the remaining 55-59 year olds (There were 27 of them, so they fill heats 6 and 5, and then the leftovers fall back to 7 lanes of heat 3.) So now we've got 3 empty lanes to fill.

Lanes 8-9 get the two leftover 45-49 year olds (you and Anne Lea), and lane 10 is the one leftover 60-64 year old (Sue Cosper).

What stinks for you is that the algorithm does not require that all four leftovers in your age group swim together.

For details about how this works, see:

http://www.usms.org/rules/part1.pdf

Specifically rule 104.5.5, which talks about seeding at national championship meets. The line A(7) specifically talks about the 'leftovers'. The rule doesn't actually require that, with 4 leftovers, they be swum at least as pairs. In a 10-lane pool, there could be 9 'leftovers' in an age group. The rules, as far as I can see, allow for those 9 leftovers to be scattered among 9 different heats, so that they would all be swimming "by themselves" with regards to age group scoring.

-Rick
Rick, THANK YOU for fully explaining this to me! :applaud: NOW I understand! :agree: But, it does stink... :bitching:

Bobinator, I knew the pyramid theory was not correct, because I have the fastest time in my heat by 2+ seconds, but I'm placed in lane 8 out of 10! :confused: So, Rick's explanation makes total sense, even though it's a bummer for me. The closest swimmers to my time are located in lanes 4 and 5. My seed time is 10+ seconds faster than one swimmer next to me and 23+ seconds faster than the swimmer on the other side of me! :bitching: And, the swimmer next to Anna Lea is 33+ seconds slower than her!!

On the positive side, I won't have any trouble finding Anna Lea, one of the swimmers on my list to meet in person! :D

Anna Lea, we can console each other for being "leftovers"! :bighug: That's what I get for being a new Masters swimmer, having just one qualifying meet in since February!

Karen Duggan
May 4th, 2010, 03:59 PM
I could see this being done as some kind of invitational only. Invite the top 20swimmers in each group to a meet. Have 4 or 5 events/day and T/F for each age group?

Maybe this could be our SCM championship :bolt:

That Guy
May 4th, 2010, 05:19 PM
So I agree that the main benefit of having a trials-finals meet would be laughing at all the complaint posts and the discussion of the finer points of scratching from the finals in a 200 after qualifying in the prelims with a split-request first 100 and then 100 warmdown. And think of the sandbagging implications! Months of hilarity just waiting to be unlocked...

Rather than age-group scoring in a trials-finals meet, team scoring could be used. After the first few years of healthy debate about regional vs. medium vs. small teams, I'm sure that we will all AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! :bolt:

Allen Stark
May 4th, 2010, 09:09 PM
If you are swimming 3 events in one day at Nats that can be OK given the rest between rvevts.Now make it Prelim/finals.It is now 6 events and the finals will undoubtedly have less rest.That is NOT how I want to do it!!

SwimStud
May 4th, 2010, 10:21 PM
I could see this being done as some kind of invitational only. Invite the top 20swimmers in each group to a meet. Have 4 or 5 events/day and T/F for each age group?

Maybe this could be our SCM championship :bolt:

sucks if you're not top 20...

Let's break away into 2 groups: USMS Elite...only for those that want to compete against the best and USMS Dross for the rest of swimmers that train just as hard but aren't blessed with the genetics or experience as the top group.
I'm motivated; anyone else?
:eeew:

The Fortress
May 4th, 2010, 10:36 PM
Both sound awful!

Prelims and finals for masters?! No thanks. Ugh. That must have been thought up by a distance swimmer.

Top 20 only meets? No thanks there too. That sounds like something Evil Smith/Mr. Negative would advocate. :bolt:

As to the timeline, I'm thrilled my earliest event starts at 11:10.

swimshark
May 5th, 2010, 07:49 AM
Prelims and finals for masters?! No thanks. Ugh. That must have been thought up by a distance swimmer.


Not this one! I couldn't imagine doing the 1000 twice!

thewookiee
May 5th, 2010, 08:18 AM
Not this one! I couldn't imagine doing the 1000 twice!

That event would be a timed final. I would love a prelims/finals masters meet. I think it would be fun.

Lump
May 5th, 2010, 08:28 AM
That event would be a timed final. I would love a prelims/finals masters meet. I think it would be fun.

Back in our age group days it was like that. Now I think they do swim the distance events twice for the top level meets (Nationals, Trials, Worlds, Olympics). They do prelims of it on one day and the final the next.

Knightswimmer2
May 5th, 2010, 09:27 AM
The biggest problem, I think, is that in a true trials/finals meet, you need to have a championship final heat for the top 1-8 (or 1-10) qualifiers. Since masters is scored by age group, you would need to have a finals for each separate age group! Otherwise, there is no real fair way to establish points.

If you do prelims/finals just by time (no age group), then consider the following scenario:

* For the example, only the top 8 return at night for finals. No consols, bonus, etc. Just top 8.
* In the 30-34 age group, there are swimmers A, B, and C.
* Event is the 50 free. In prelims, the following times are performed:
- Swimmer A: 30.00 (qualifies 7th overall)
- Swimmer B: 30.01 (qualifies 8th overall)
- Swimmer C: 30.02 (qualifies 9th overall, does not make finals)
* Then at night in finals, only Swimmer A and Swimmer B swim, since Swimmer C did not qualify. In finals, the following times are performed:
- Swimmer A: 30.50
- Swimmer B: 30.40

How do you score the event? Who won? Swimmer A had the fastest time overall, but it was from prelims. Swimmer B was faster in finals. Swimmer C was slowest in the morning, but was still faster than Swimmer A or B swam in finals.

It would also mean that you'd, practically, never get any 70+ swimmers ever qualifying for finals.

All in all, it creates a scenario where, as an expectation, there are different parameters for scoring points depending on your speed and age group. I.e., not a level playing field.

-Rick


Rick,

In a prelim/finals meet this will sometimes happens...Whoever goes the fastest in the finals is your champion...Thats how it works at every prelim final meet...You have to swim fast in the morning to give yourself a shot to win it at night. So in order to score points for your team, it would be the order of finish of the finals swimmers. Maybe you can throw in consol points for the next 8 outside the finals heat?

I def would support a prelim/final meet!

thewookiee
May 5th, 2010, 09:35 AM
Back in our age group days it was like that. Now I think they do swim the distance events twice for the top level meets (Nationals, Trials, Worlds, Olympics). They do prelims of it on one day and the final the next.

Jeff, if it is a selection meet for the olympics, then the women's 800 and men's 1500 freestyle are done as your described.

Most meets, even at a lot of usa nationals, the distance freestyles are timed finals.

__steve__
May 5th, 2010, 10:32 AM
In the 50F, I am lucky enough to have the person in my lane before me seeded 5.49 seconds faster! :bow:
Should I ask him for any extra speed he doesn't need?

I am 6 years younger than him too.

Karen Duggan
May 5th, 2010, 12:16 PM
[QUOTE=The Fortress;213299]Both sound awful!

Prelims and finals for masters?! No thanks. Ugh. QUOTE]

No one said that because you're invited, you have to attend :D
I only suggested 20 (an arbitrary number to be sure) because you'd want to keep the numbers down if you were going to have finals also.
:agree:

Or make an international T/F meet. Invite the top 50 in the world!
Heh heh.
(stirring, stirring, stirring- where is that stirring the pot smiley anyway?)

ALM
May 5th, 2010, 09:50 PM
On the positive side, I won't have any trouble finding Anna Lea, one of the swimmers on my list to meet in person! :D
Anna Lea, we can console each other for being "leftovers"! :bighug:

I've been the "leftover" in my age group for 20 years now. But it doesn't matter because my hubby says that I'm the cutest one in my age group. :blush:

ElaineK
May 6th, 2010, 11:10 AM
I've been the "leftover" in my age group for 20 years now. But it doesn't matter because my hubby says that I'm the cutest one in my age group. :blush:

Ahhhhhhhhh, NICE HUBBY! :applaud:

Jeff Commings
May 7th, 2010, 05:22 PM
Assuming odd and even heats are in different pools, I would hate to be the swimmers in heat 54:
Heat 52 of 58 Timed Finals
1 Bain, Bradley Kyle 25 NCMS 21.38
2 Doak, Kevin 29 MICH 21.21
3 Buren, Paul J 29 GAJA 20.90
4 Pascale, Joesph R 26 AMS 20.30
5 Brunelli, Nicholas J 28 NCMS 19.11
6 Jones, Cullen A 26 NCMS 19.46
7 Krayer, Michael 27 NCMS 20.53
8 Holsman, Trent T 29 TOC 21.12
9 Murphy, Connor G 26 AGUA 21.23
10 Keefe, Michael R 29 SWOM 21.71

Heat 54 of 58 Timed Finals
1 Oates, Christian J 21 LOVE 24.35
2 Sinnamon, Sam 24 NMMS 24.00
3 Howard, Mark C 24 TPIT 23.70
4 Chudoba, John A 23 NCMS 23.57
5 Woollen, Chase 19 GMSC 23.50
6 Jones, Gavin L 23 WH2O 23.54
7 Pilgrim, Greg 21 NIAG 23.66
8 Oates, Dexter R 23 LOVE 23.78
9 Monroe, Derek C 23 GAJA 24.10
10 Miller, Joshua S 24 CSMT 24.46

To have to follow Cullen and Nick...first off, no one will be watching heat 54. They'll be still buzzing about heat 52. And don't forget those guys in the other pool. I remember the meet grinding to a halt in 2004 when Gary Hall Jr. and Sabir Muhammad raced the 50 free. They even stopped the heats in the opposite pool.

Chris Stevenson
May 7th, 2010, 07:12 PM
Assuming odd and even heats are in different pools, I would hate to be the swimmers in heat 54.

To have to follow Cullen and Nick...first off, no one will be watching heat 54. They'll be still buzzing about heat 52. And don't forget those guys in the other pool. I remember the meet grinding to a halt in 2004 when Gary Hall Jr. and Sabir Muhammad raced the 50 free. They even stopped the heats in the opposite pool.

I think the following heat of 100 IM will also be pretty fun to watch:

Heat 47 of 50 Timed Finals
1 Kercheval, Josh 29 IM 54.81
2 Erickson, Ben 28 LVM 54.50
3 Welch, Corey L 27 GOLD 53.80
4 Scheerhorn, Andrew J 28 CAT 53.00
5 Gangloff, Mark 27 AMS 48.27
6 Brunelli, Nicholas J 28 NCMS 48.82
7 Stephens, Mark C 26 RIDG 53.70
8 Danner, Gregory M 29 NIAG 54.48
9 Deery, Kyle B 25 SYSM 54.50
10 Mac Lennan, Brett 25 CAT 54.84

Jeff, I was sorry to see that you weren't entered in the meet.

Muppet
May 7th, 2010, 10:18 PM
To have to follow Cullen and Nick...first off, no one will be watching heat 54. They'll be still buzzing about heat 52. And don't forget those guys in the other pool. I remember the meet grinding to a halt in 2004 when Gary Hall Jr. and Sabir Muhammad raced the 50 free. They even stopped the heats in the opposite pool.

yup, same for the 50 fly, and thanks to the stoppage, the timers got all flustered on what heat we were on and i missed my heat.

btw, anyone who thinks a trials/finals meet is a good idea clearly has no experience running a meet.