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cuccuinis
May 28th, 2010, 12:23 PM
Had a great time at the Atlanta Short Course Nationals event, however what was up with the lack of pool etiquette in the warm-up/down pools? I have competed in triathlons and open water swims and this event by far was the most dangerous swim experience in terms of etiquette. I spoke with many swimmers who felt the same.

In the warm-up/warm-down pools, I had someone actually jump in as aggressively as they could on top of me, pushing me under. The one time I tried to warm-up in the competition pool during a break, I was pushed in the head and told "Move" & when it was completely crowded with no where to go, I had someone pull my leg, push on my lower back, push me under the water and then they actually swam over top of me to get in front, which was pointless as everyone was touching? Really? I was also very disappointed to hear that younger swimmers were not only crowding the 65+ designated lanes, but were actually just as dangerous and argumentative with the older swimmers. Really?

Perhaps we need a revised USMS Pool etiquette for Nationals and similar type events in addition to the following,

http://www.usms.org/fitness/content/pooletiquette

heidi k
May 28th, 2010, 11:48 PM
I experienced the same thing. People leaping into the pool rather than lowering themselves when the lanes were packed with people. I had swimmers pass me during warm up when there was a continuous line of swimmers. When the conditions are that crowded, a bit more respect for others is in order.

Rykno
May 29th, 2010, 05:29 AM
since there are a few USMS coming over to Sweden this summer


From the Worlds fact file:


WARM-UP PROCEDURES;
Swimmers must enter the pool feet first in a cautious and controlled manner. No diving or backstroke starts will be allowed except in designated sprint lanes. One or more lanes shall be designated as ONE WAY SPRINT lanes during the pre-meet warm-up sessions in the competition pool only. No diving or backstroke starts will be allowed in the warm-up pools. No sprint lanes will be designated in the warm-up pool. ANY SWIMMER WHO ACTS IN AN UNSPORTSMANLIKE OR UNSAFE MANNER WITHIN THE SWIMMING VENUE MAY BE CONSIDERED FOR APPROPRIATE ACTION OR PENALTY BY THE FINA Masters Commission.

Pull-buoys, kick boards, fins, hand paddles and other training aids consider inappropriate are not allowed in the competition pool or warm-up pool, as well as watches and heavy jewellery.

Ahelee Sue Osborn
May 30th, 2010, 11:12 AM
Anna Lea talked to me about a having a coach write a new article on this exact subject of warm up pool etiquette.

There are plenty of articles out there like it. You can probably find one on any large club or LMSC's website.

The problem lies in swimmers actually reading the rules and suggestions - and thinking of other swimmers in the pool before themselves.


I find this bad behavior in the meet warm-up pool so very out of character for masters swimmers.
It really surprises me every single time I experience it!


I do think it is worth the space to include these warm-up pool suggestions in the emailed newsletter sent out before Nationals.
And perhaps even in the program.

Maybe removing the offending swimmer from the warm-up pool for that session?

Certainly every swimmer participating at Nationals knows there is no diving into the warm-up pool, but every session we see someone do it.
A sleek entry dive is less disruptive the cannon-ball like entry so many like to use regardless of who is near. But who can count on a swimmer to look around and make sure it is clear.
Must be the reason we have that no-dive rule...

ElaineK
May 30th, 2010, 01:14 PM
Anna Lea talked to me about a having a coach write a new article on this exact subject of warm up pool etiquette.

There are plenty of articles out there like it. You can probably find one on any large club or LMSC's website.

The problem lies in swimmers actually reading the rules and suggestions - and thinking of other swimmers in the pool before themselves.


I find this bad behavior in the meet warm-up pool so very out of character for masters swimmers.
It really surprises me every single time I experience it!


I do think it is worth the space to include these warm-up pool suggestions in the emailed newsletter sent out before Nationals.
And perhaps even in the program.

Maybe removing the offending swimmer from the warm-up pool for that session?

Certainly every swimmer participating at Nationals knows there is no diving into the warm-up pool, but every session we see someone do it.
A sleek entry dive is less disruptive the cannon-ball like entry so many like to use regardless of who is near. But who can count on a swimmer to look around and make sure it is clear.
Must be the reason we have that no-dive rule...
I completely agree with you! :applaud: I found the warm-up pool to be an intimidating and stressful experience. I came up from one breaststroke turn and got pushed up into a lane line by a swimmer who was passing me. The resulting scrape and bruise did NOT feel very good... :badday:

I entered the warm-up lane by sitting on the edge, putting my feet in, asking those holding on in the corners if they were going to go or not, then slipping in. Would that be so difficult for EVERYBODY to do???

Muppet
June 4th, 2010, 11:35 AM
I find this bad behavior in the meet warm-up pool so very out of character for masters swimmers.
It really surprises me every single time I experience it!

Perhaps the perpetrators are those who are not real masters swimmers - those who joined and competed only because of the suits...

Muppet
June 4th, 2010, 11:49 AM
Sami, great suggestion.
I didn't have too much of an issue with warmup. Perhaps it is because I managed to warm up at less-crowded times or picked good lanes; who knows.

Between this thread and the "what i didn't like about atlanta nationals" thread, I see a lot of complaints about the "faster" and/or "younger" swimmers in the warmup pool, and would like to point out that it goes both ways. Some "slower" and/or "older" swimmers just flat out refused to yield to others who repeatedly foot-touched or were swimming whilst they were kicking. Or the people who push off when someone is sprinting towards your wall or about to initiate their flip turn... why would you not wait to go after them?

In all cases, there are some behaviors that are flat out unacceptable. Everyone needs to practice common courtesy - and as a meet director, this is something that is on us and our safety marshals.

Donna
June 6th, 2010, 08:42 AM
I tended to swim in that narrow lane with the steps at the one end. No one liked that lane so it made uncrowded there. But I did find a hot shower was safer.

Lump
June 6th, 2010, 11:25 AM
With the number of people in the pools the only way I can see fixing the problem is staged warmups (groups of teams assigned to a set time to warmup) and/or making warmup longer.

stillwater
June 6th, 2010, 12:46 PM
I was never fast enought to swim at the Olynpic Trials, but I did swim in some big AAU and college events. Warm up and warm down problems are a part of the experience. It sucks.

In AAU meets (like masters) it was a "deal with it" experience. Coaches might be able to swarm a lane or two with the team but that's not too effective, and kind of rude.

In college, coaches worked together (slightly) to afford time for teams to warm up. Warm downs weren't that much of a problem, for me.

I do not support schedules in the warm-up pool. I'ts tough but that is a part of the game.

Tell us you fast swimmers out there, how were warm ups and warm downs controlled at the trials, DIV I NCAA and the Big Dance?

pwb
June 6th, 2010, 02:07 PM
...I do not support schedules in the warm-up pool. I'ts tough but that is a part of the game...For once, I am in complete agreement with you, Mr. Ninny.

stillwater
June 6th, 2010, 05:26 PM
For once, I am in complete agreement with you, Mr. Ninny.

It is a slow progression to obtain total enlightenment. You have taken the first step on an arduous but rewarding path.

pwb
June 6th, 2010, 08:17 PM
It is a slow progression to obtain total enlightenment. You have taken the first step on an arduous but rewarding path.:laugh2:

Lump
June 6th, 2010, 10:27 PM
I do not support schedules in the warm-up pool. I'ts tough but that is a part of the game.


I don't either....just stating what "may" be the only way to reduce the original posters concern. I'm a big boy and generally don't have a problem.

bzaks1424
June 7th, 2010, 09:03 AM
I don't either....just stating what "may" be the only way to reduce the original posters concern. I'm a big boy and generally don't have a problem.

Well - I don't know that that's entirely fair to say. Even at a smaller "big" meet like Illinois State (my first ever and only until the end of this month). I remember getting into the warm up lanes and coming out thinking that about 15 people had gotten fresh with me (yes I was VERY flattered).

I think what would honestly help the most is developing an entry/exit system from the pool (Always enter from this end, always exit from that end). Then a break down of speed should move from lane one -> lane x (6, 8, 10?) Finally - plain and simple - don't stand in the end of the lane if someone's coming in.

The nerd in me says we should get someone who's sole job is to organize the warm ups and assign people places and allow them in when its the best time. This same person could keep track of what event is going on and tell people when they need to get out of warm up. (Of course the nerd in me is imagining a lot of nerdy tech stuff that would be pretty much impractical for a standard meet budget.)

thewookiee
June 7th, 2010, 09:11 AM
.

The nerd in me says we should get someone who's sole job is to organize the warm ups and assign people places and allow them in when its the best time. This same person could keep track of what event is going on and tell people when they need to get out of warm up. (Of course the nerd in me is imagining a lot of nerdy tech stuff that would be pretty much impractical for a standard meet budget.)

I don't see this one going over very well. Some people like to do a long swim before their race, others none, some a very short swim. Knowing myself and some other people, we wouldn't listen very well to someone telling us when to warm-up or get out for our races.

bzaks1424
June 7th, 2010, 09:15 AM
I don't see this one going over very well. Some people like to do a long swim before their race, others none, some a very short swim. Knowing myself and some other people, we wouldn't listen very well to someone telling us when to warm-up or get out for our races.

Well - I suppose not necessarily telling you that you have to stay in for a certain time - but if you do say "I'm warming up for event 33" You could at least have the current event/heat# + estimated time til next event posted so the swimmers could use their own judgement.
However - it would be best if someone was at least organizing the faster swimmers in faster lanes and vice versa. Some of us can't sprint at the speed some of you can warm up at (looks at myself)

swimcat
June 7th, 2010, 07:03 PM
I have been to a Y in nyc that made you wear a elastic band, you were allowed 20 minutes after 20 you got out and waited. I swear. I went once, never again.
One of the marshalls in Atlanta had to kick out a younger ok maybe 30ish masters swimmer who was wearing paddles (you know who u are). I mean seriously. She got really upset. rufkme. :bitching:
When I swam at worlds in munich, they had warm up lanes with time intervals (1.30 being the slowest) this is hard at best for some seniors long course. they also alternated clockwise one lane, counter the other. People were running into each other.
There is no answer, we all know etiquette and sadly most of the offenders are not newbies. If somebody does something call them out about it.

swimcat
June 7th, 2010, 07:04 PM
:agree::agree::agree::agree::agree::applaud:
I don't see this one going over very well. Some people like to do a long swim before their race, others none, some a very short swim. Knowing myself and some other people, we wouldn't listen very well to someone telling us when to warm-up or get out for our races.

swoomer
June 8th, 2010, 10:02 PM
Nobody ever seems to like what I say, but I am going to say it again. There is no substitute for good manners. I don't care how young or old you are; how fast or slow you are, you get my humble respect in the warm up pool. All I ask is that I receive the same from you. My Atlanta experience as well as the subsequent scrapes and bruises would indicate otherwise. If this is a problem for one participant, it is a problem! Enough of the "just live with it or stay home" attitude!

thewookiee
June 9th, 2010, 09:19 AM
Nobody ever seems to like what I say, but I am going to say it again. There is no substitute for good manners. I don't care how young or old you are; how fast or slow you are, you get my humble respect in the warm up pool. All I ask is that I receive the same from you. My Atlanta experience as well as the subsequent scrapes and bruises would indicate otherwise. If this is a problem for one participant, it is a problem! Enough of the "just live with it or stay home" attitude!

Then what do you want everyone to do? A person can't get a good warm-up by stopping every 25. If people are crowding the wall and don't give the approaching swimmer a place to either stop or turn, then they become part of the wall for turning. If you have been swimming long enough, that is part of warm-ups. Swimmer don't do it intentionally but when given no other choice to continue their warm-up, they do what is best for them.

nancyk
June 9th, 2010, 10:11 AM
I totally agree. I found the Atlanta warmup to be frightening. Some guys were jumping aggressively into the pool and landing like a cannon ball. I like the slip in rule or get kicked out.

Muppet
June 9th, 2010, 02:56 PM
When I swam at worlds in munich, they had warm up lanes with time intervals (1.30 being the slowest)

I am thinking about doing something like this for our meet in August. The only problem here is the success of lane-speed rules depends on the honesty of the swimmers in the water. Some people think higher of themselves than they should; others should think more highly of themselves than they do. Plus people do some kick during warmup, so it's not going to be perfect.

I'm glad someone mentioned using people as the wall. At a meet a while back, I came upon a crowded wall, and there was someone in the middle who had had more than enough time to move. I did a slow flip turn (as not to hit them on the head with my heels) and straddled the person in the middle of the wall uncomfortably close (for them, at least) for a second before I pushed off. Next time down, everyone had moved over and there was plenty of room!! :bolt:

pwb
June 9th, 2010, 03:08 PM
I am thinking about doing something like this for our meet in August. The only problem here is the success of lane-speed rules depends on the honesty of the swimmers in the water. Some people think higher of themselves than they should; others should think more highly of themselves than they do. Plus people do some kick during warmup, so it's not going to be perfect. Logically, this concept is great, but I've swum in too many lap pools where they do have a 'speed' designation to know that too many people overestimate their speed, as you note. Plus, beyond kicking, people will often do different strokes in warmup; would we need to change lanes when we switched from free to breast? I think this might end up setting people's expectations falsely and end up with more disappointment.

I think we should all just aim to be big boys and girls and get along ... POLITELY entering the water, POLITELY being aware of others in the lane and doing the best we can. I know I never get in the kind of warmup I'd really want to do at a Nationals, but that's just part of the game.

thewookiee
June 9th, 2010, 03:08 PM
I'm glad someone mentioned using people as the wall. At a meet a while back, I came upon a crowded wall, and there was someone in the middle who had had more than enough time to move. I did a slow flip turn (as not to hit them on the head with my heels) and straddled the person in the middle of the wall uncomfortably close (for them, at least) for a second before I pushed off. Next time down, everyone had moved over and there was plenty of room!! :bolt:

Sometimes a person just doesn't have a choice if they are trying to get warmed-up. This is not something that people want to do but at times have to do.

swoomer
June 9th, 2010, 09:37 PM
Then what do you want everyone to do? A person can't get a good warm-up by stopping every 25. If people are crowding the wall and don't give the approaching swimmer a place to either stop or turn, then they become part of the wall for turning. If you have been swimming long enough, that is part of warm-ups. Swimmer don't do it intentionally but when given no other choice to continue their warm-up, they do what is best for them.

You have described my warm up. I am exceedingly cognizant of the fact that I am older, slower and smaller than about 95 percent of those attending Nationals - yet a top ten swimmer in more than three events for each course since I started swimming about 5 years ago, so you're not exactly talking to an inexperienced swimmer. I'm tough enough, but don't expect to be pulled under by the foot so that someone could swim over the top of me, nor shoved into a lane line a body length from the wall because someone couldn't wait for me to pull off at the end of my sprint 25. When I stop, I hang on to the lane line so as to not impede others. I don't know what else to do in your world except to stay home which I will NOT do. I know what you think you deserve, but what makes it so important that people get hurt or are terrified to warm up? I don't think that this is what our sport is all about. Since I have decided to speak out on this subject, I have been accused of being the problem by you and others. That is kind of like blaming the victim of a crime which speaks volumes about the attitudes of fellow swimmers.

Finally, I want to go on record that the large majority of swimmers are exceeding respectful of others. In our crowded warm ups, there is generally an attitude that we're all in this together, and people understand that they are sharing a crowded space. It is only a few people who forget their manners that make things dangerous. We're all there for the same reason - we love our sport and want to be the best we can be. "Excuse me" or "I'm sorry" would go a long way.

bzaks1424
June 9th, 2010, 09:43 PM
Sometimes a person just doesn't have a choice if they are trying to get warmed-up. This is not something that people want to do but at times have to do.
But its not just that. Some people carry a sense of "Grand Entitlement" if you will. Sometimes that's cockiness, sometimes its complete ignorance of the world around them. There's gotta be a good way to encourage better behavior so we don't need so many rules....

Chris Stevenson
June 10th, 2010, 01:18 AM
I am thinking about doing something like this for our meet in August. The only problem here is the success of lane-speed rules depends on the honesty of the swimmers in the water. Some people think higher of themselves than they should; others should think more highly of themselves than they do. Plus people do some kick during warmup, so it's not going to be perfect.

Not just kicking but changing strokes.

Actually, my big problem with the speed designation thing is that it doesn't make efficient use of space. In normal warmup, people jump in what they perceive to be the least crowded lane and this keeps all the lanes more or less equally crowded. So everyone is in the same boat. If you have a speed designation, then you are likely to have some lanes very crowded and others less so.

thewookiee
June 10th, 2010, 08:18 AM
You have described my warm up. I am exceedingly cognizant of the fact that I am older, slower and smaller than about 95 percent of those attending Nationals - yet a top ten swimmer in more than three events for each course since I started swimming about 5 years ago, so you're not exactly talking to an inexperienced swimmer. I'm tough enough, but don't expect to be pulled under by the foot so that someone could swim over the top of me, nor shoved into a lane line a body length from the wall because someone couldn't wait for me to pull off at the end of my sprint 25. When I stop, I hang on to the lane line so as to not impede others. I don't know what else to do in your world except to stay home which I will NOT do. I know what you think you deserve, but what makes it so important that people get hurt or are terrified to warm up? I don't think that this is what our sport is all about. Since I have decided to speak out on this subject, I have been accused of being the problem by you and others. That is kind of like blaming the victim of a crime which speaks volumes about the attitudes of fellow swimmers.

Finally, I want to go on record that the large majority of swimmers are exceeding respectful of others. In our crowded warm ups, there is generally an attitude that we're all in this together, and people understand that they are sharing a crowded space. It is only a few people who forget their manners that make things dangerous. We're all there for the same reason - we love our sport and want to be the best we can be. "Excuse me" or "I'm sorry" would go a long way.


Just where in my statement did I blame you?? I stated a fact about crowded warm-ups. There are times when a swimmer is trying to warm-up and people crowd the wall, so an incoming swimmer that wants to keep moving doesn't have a place on the wall to turn, so they use what there.

I don't condone pulling people under just because someone wants to pass them, diving in into the warm-up pool or using paddles/fins in the warm-up pool.

I do support people that want a good warm-up swimming past a person, completing a flip turn on the wall if people won't move(it ain't that hard move or duck down) or doing kicking/drill swims regardless of what everyone else is doing(except in sprint lanes)

Yes, I think I do deserve and everyone else in the pool deserves the right to warm-up the way we feel we need to for our races. If that means passing you in the middle of pool, then you get passed. That happens to me at every meet. I start out slow in the warm-up process and people pass me in the lane...doesn't bother me because it is part of the process.

If you want to compete, that's great, don't stay home. No one wants you to stay home.

thewookiee
June 10th, 2010, 08:19 AM
But its not just that. Some people carry a sense of "Grand Entitlement" if you will. Sometimes that's cockiness, sometimes its complete ignorance of the world around them. There's gotta be a good way to encourage better behavior so we don't need so many rules....

But that's true at any meet, not just a major meet.

BillS
June 10th, 2010, 07:42 PM
FWIW, I commented more than once that I thought the warm up pool was surprisingly civilized this year. With almost 2,000 swimmers, I expected the worst, but was generally able to get in a decent warm up each day, both in the competition pool and the dive well. I thought Austin was far worse, especially in regard to people hanging on the walls.

Obviously, other folks had different experiences, but I didn't experience or observe anything this year that I thought was too out of line.

swoomer
June 10th, 2010, 08:34 PM
Just where in my statement did I blame you?? I stated a fact about crowded warm-ups. There are times when a swimmer is trying to warm-up and people crowd the wall, so an incoming swimmer that wants to keep moving doesn't have a place on the wall to turn, so they use what there.

I don't condone pulling people under just because someone wants to pass them, diving in into the warm-up pool or using paddles/fins in the warm-up pool.

I do support people that want a good warm-up swimming past a person, completing a flip turn on the wall if people won't move(it ain't that hard move or duck down) or doing kicking/drill swims regardless of what everyone else is doing(except in sprint lanes)

Yes, I think I do deserve and everyone else in the pool deserves the right to warm-up the way we feel we need to for our races. If that means passing you in the middle of pool, then you get passed. That happens to me at every meet. I start out slow in the warm-up process and people pass me in the lane...doesn't bother me because it is part of the process.

If you want to compete, that's great, don't stay home. No one wants you to stay home.

Wookie, I agree that you are entitled to your warm up as you like it. It sounds like you are responsible try to respect other swimmers at the same time. All that I am saying is that I don't get the same. I can't swim more than a 25 at a time because I'm intimidated. I don't mind being passed if it's not over the top of me or I'm not shoved into the lane lines. I tried the continuous swim thing that you want, but got hurt in the process. Do you think that one deserves bruises because they are trying to warm up? I don't think so. My point is that I know I tick people off while trying to swim my 25, pull off, hang on to the lane line, wait for a break and do the whole thing all over again. But that's the best I can do. What I'm trying to say is that even at that, it's a dangerous game. Please try to understand that nobody gets the perfect warm up.

I'm about to move into the safety of the 65 plus lane, and I must say that though I'm probably faster and stronger than 80 percent of those swimmers, I'd never consider my personal warm up more important than anyone else's safety in that lane. I'll make accomodations or take my chances in another lane. I guess my standards are just too high and I should just shut my mouth and lick my wounds. See you in PR!

gdanner
June 11th, 2010, 01:08 AM
Tell us you fast swimmers out there, how were warm ups and warm downs controlled at the trials, DIV I NCAA and the Big Dance?

I haven't been to those meets, but I've swum at USA Nationals a dozen times between 1998 and 2009. The warmups don't compare. Due to the cut times, all the swimmers are much closer in terms of speed. I don't mind slowing down or speeding up *slightly* off my intended pace if it means not needing to pass. I prefer to not pass and I do not touch people's feet, but that's something of a personal preference. I will also turn around in the middle of the pool sometimes to avoid passing when it is clear in the other direction.

The skill level is so varied at USMS Nationals that it is often necessary to pass. To make matters worse, sometimes I found myself catching the same people again within another 50 yards. Swimmers should recognize where faster athletes are congregating and that is usually in the middle lanes. Also, if someone is trying to pass, hug the laneline.

This was my first USMS Nationals meet and I had an amazing time. All things considered, the warm-up scenario was much better than I expected and nowhere near my worst encounters from some USA Swimming competitions. The Sectionals meet warmups are probably some of the worst I've experienced.

I think many people are underestimating the likelihood that there were simply accidents. With lots of bodies and waves moving people in unintended directions, there is going to be some contact. For the most part, I don't believe people are intentionally hitting others.

There no single solution that will make everyone happy. Just do the best with what you got.

Charge
July 20th, 2010, 10:49 PM
I agree Bill, Austin was terrible.

Bobinator
July 21st, 2010, 10:00 AM
I may be wrong but during warm-ups I assume the middle lanes are generally for the fastest swimmers and each outgoing lane is a bit slower pace, sort of a pyramid seeding pattern. This assumption normally works for me just fine.
I did not go to the Atlanta meet; maybe this meet was just an unusual group of competitors.

Paul Smith
August 26th, 2010, 06:24 PM
Sadly a problem that will always exist, we may be able to put a Band-Aid on it so to speak but bottom line is there are very good solutions.

Something Laura and I have done at almost every nationals we have attended is warm-up off-site...so here's an informal poll, we have multiple pools near the Kino facility that we could potentially open up in the mornings when conditions are at their worst...would anyone be interested in something like that?

swim53
August 26th, 2010, 06:45 PM
Absolutely!:applaud:

jim clemmons
August 26th, 2010, 07:52 PM
Sadly a problem that will always exist, we may be able to put a Band-Aid on it so to speak but bottom line is there are very good solutions.

Something Laura and I have done at almost every nationals we have attended is warm-up off-site...so here's an informal poll, we have multiple pools near the Kino facility that we could potentially open up in the mornings when conditions are at their worst...would anyone be interested in something like that?

Do you really think it'll be necessary?

I thought Kino's set up something similar to Clovis but after looking at the satellite view, I was obviously wrong. Must be CRS. Yes, offsite options would be of interest.

Hey, nice to see you back. Didja get lost?

Paul Smith
August 26th, 2010, 10:52 PM
Jim....we will have 13 lanes for warm-up.

"Lost" would be one way of describing the last year...proud to say we've been overseeing a masters team that went from 6 to over 150 (and our women just broke the national record in the LCM 200 medley with a 2:03!) and age group program of over 300 (95% of team finished season with best times, 16 sectional qualifiers, 1 JO cut and 1 national cut)...priorities have changed but I'm "making my comeback" as I have a coney dog bet with a 16 year old in the 5o free coming up in 3 weeks!

pwb
August 27th, 2010, 01:08 AM
Jim....we will have 13 lanes for warm-up.
My read having been to the last few Nationals on warmup space only:


WAY, way better than Atlanta or Austin,
not as good as Clovis

Paul, it would still be good to have other options for people if they are available.

pwb
August 27th, 2010, 01:13 AM
My read having been to the last few Nationals on warmup space only:


WAY, way better than Atlanta or Austin,
not as good as Clovis

Paul, it would still be good to have other options for people if they are available.As far as the pool itself for racing:


better than Clovis,
much better than Atlanta,
and I can't be objective about Austin, a sentimental favorite of mine

pwolf66
August 27th, 2010, 11:45 AM
As far as the pool itself for racing:


better than Clovis,
much better than Atlanta,
and I can't be objective about Austin, a sentimental favorite of mine


Better than Clovis? Wow, guess I need to get my butt in the pool and starting training as I loved the tank at Clovis. Last 3 SCY Nats are for me:

1 - Clovis - loved this tank
2 - Austin - UT - enough said
3 - Atlanta - just didn't care for the pool at all.

jroddin
August 27th, 2010, 12:37 PM
Better than Clovis? Wow, guess I need to get my butt in the pool and starting training as I loved the tank at Clovis. Last 3 SCY Nats are for me:

Atlanta - just didn't care for the pool at all.

I suppose the pool was only good enough for the Olympics but not for masters Nationals. :confused:

pwolf66
August 27th, 2010, 12:43 PM
I suppose the pool was only good enough for the Olympics but not for masters Nationals. :confused:

Not sure what you are trying to say here but it sure looks like you are saying that his opinion is wrong, which is impossible because it's his opinion. :confused: :confused: :confused:

thewookiee
August 27th, 2010, 12:45 PM
I don't understand why people have a problem with the GA Tech pool. I have swam in that pool. The pool is fast. The pool is deep, with the over flow gutters. The water is cool and very clear. The lighting for the facility is great.

I just don't get why people think it isn't a good pool.

jim clemmons
August 27th, 2010, 12:48 PM
"Lost" would be one way of describing the last year...proud to say we've been overseeing a masters team that went from 6 to over 150 (and our women just broke the national record in the LCM 200 medley with a 2:03!) and age group program of over 300 (95% of team finished season with best times, 16 sectional qualifiers, 1 JO cut and 1 national cut)...priorities have changed but I'm "making my comeback" as I have a coney dog bet with a 16 year old in the 50 free coming up in 3 weeks!

Doesn't sound like "Lost" to me. Sounds more like "Empire Building" - in a good sense.

I'm sure you weren't totally "out of it", anyway. :chug:

jim clemmons
August 27th, 2010, 12:52 PM
I don't understand why people have a problem with the GA Tech pool. I have swam in that pool. The pool is fast. The pool is deep, with the over flow gutters. The water is cool and very clear. The lighting for the facility is great.

I just don't get why people think it isn't a good pool.

Maybe it was just some of the technical difficulties that were occasionally presented (hard to hear starter and start "horn") and a wee bit of crowding?

I had a good time; thought it was great. But that's me - some claim I'm "easy".

pwolf66
August 27th, 2010, 12:57 PM
I don't understand why people have a problem with the GA Tech pool. I have swam in that pool. The pool is fast. The pool is deep, with the over flow gutters. The water is cool and very clear. The lighting for the facility is great.

I just don't get why people think it isn't a good pool.

Well I didn't say it wasn't good pool, I just ranked it at the bottom of the pools where I have attended SCY nationals. Trust me, I've swam in pools that I would call 'not good'. But it seemed, at least for me, that it lost some of it's lustre when set up SCY. The issues I had:

1 - turbulence created a lot of small buddles that did not clear very fast creating visibility issues
2 - Bulkhead was a real challenge for me, especially on the course near the scoreboard. On that course I missed all three flip turns (50 and both in the 100). Sure others didn't have problems but this is my opinion, so I can only put it in the frame of reference of me. I have swam at quite a few pools with bulkheads and this one gave me the most trouble by a huge margin.


But hey, that's life. Would I swim there again? Heck yeah. Is it, in my opinion, the 3rd best pool for SCY Nats in my experience? Yup.

Betsy
August 27th, 2010, 01:01 PM
I thought the warm-up facilities at Clovis were super - nothing like a 50 m pool just for warm-up. I found both Austin and Atlanta to be difficult to get a good warm-up due to the number of participants. Very few venues can accomodate 1800-1900 swimmers trying to warm-up.
Another problem that I had in Austin and Atlanta is with breathing. I was fine the first 3 days, but the last day was a problem. I talked it over with the Aquatic Director at local pools. She says the air handlers were never designed to work for some many people in the pool and in the pool area. The chemicals churned up by so many swimmers are never completely cleared and get a little worse each day. I have asthma so am more sensitive that many people. Savannah was bad also. I have found that I can't hang around the pool all day to watch my friends and team; I need to get out of the environment for awhile.
It's a real problem for the championship committee and future hosts. We don't want to limit entries any more, but how many swimmers can the facility handle for warm-ups?

pwolf66
August 27th, 2010, 01:07 PM
We don't want to limit entries any more, but how many swimmers can the facility handle for warm-ups?

Betsy, that is an excellent point and one not only for Masters' meets but for all swim meets. In PVS, we have had serious issues with air quality because of extremely crowded conditions as meets get more and more participants.

It's one of the hidden consquences of continuing to grow participation in a sport without increasing the size and quantity of facilities to support this growth.

pwb
August 27th, 2010, 01:11 PM
Well I didn't say it wasn't good pool, I just ranked it at the bottom of the pools where I have attended SCY nationals...

1 - turbulence created a lot of small buddles that did not clear very fast creating visibility issues
2 - Bulkhead was a real challenge for me, especially on the course near the scoreboard...
I'm with you on both points about Atlanta. It was a fine enough pool, but I just think there are better pools.

As for Mesa, I think -- PAUL SMITH, please clarify -- that we'll be swimming widthwise, which means real walls on both courses and no bulkheads. I much prefer racing into walls and not bulkheads, part of the reason why I ranked Clovis over Atlanta, even though I swam faster in Atlanta on a same event basis.


...Another problem that I had in Austin and Atlanta is with breathing. Betsy, Mesa is outdoors, so that won't be a problem. You'll have other issues to deal with -- SUN! -- but the air should be good.

Paul Smith
August 27th, 2010, 01:43 PM
As for Mesa, I think -- PAUL SMITH, please clarify -- that we'll be swimming widthwise, which means real walls on both courses and no bulkheads. I much prefer racing into walls and not bulkheads, part of the reason why I ranked Clovis over Atlanta, even though I swam faster in Atlanta on a same event basis.

You are correct PWB...2 x 9 lane courses running from east to west with the bulkhead separating the two. Which means flo-over gutters at the start/turn ends, one full open lane on the outside of each course, the "outside" lanes that will be next to the bulkhead have a lane line and about a 2' of a gap before the bulkhead (which is "flo-threw" design so will absorb a lot of the turbulence. Very fast set-up.

Betsy
August 28th, 2010, 09:41 AM
I am looking forward to Mesa. The earlier date should ensure better temperatures than the meets in Tempe. Since meet hosts usually provide ample shade, the sun should not be a problem. This time I hope to stay a few days in Arizona and do some sightseeing.

knelson
September 1st, 2010, 12:41 PM
I am looking forward to Mesa.

Me too! Sounds like a great setup for fast swimming.

Paul Smith
September 1st, 2010, 02:03 PM
Details to follow...however we do have the Saturday social sponsored by Coors/MGD and Outback Steakhouse on the golf course with a band locked in.

Thursday looks like we have a social at Toby Keith's: http://www.tobykeith.com/mesa/

Casino night?

Working on some stuff for a Diamondbacks game

oh...and the pool and Saguaro Lake are pretty nice to: http://www.saguarolakemarina.com/

celticbass1
November 13th, 2010, 11:21 PM
I was never fast enought to swim at the Olynpic Trials, but I did swim in some big AAU and college events. Warm up and warm down problems are a part of the experience. It sucks.

In AAU meets (like masters) it was a "deal with it" experience. Coaches might be able to swarm a lane or two with the team but that's not too effective, and kind of rude.

In college, coaches worked together (slightly) to afford time for teams to warm up. Warm downs weren't that much of a problem, for me.

I do not support schedules in the warm-up pool. I'ts tough but that is a part of the game.

Tell us you fast swimmers out there, how were warm ups and warm downs controlled at the trials, DIV I NCAA and the Big Dance?

Only had NCAA DIV 1 experience and I have to tell you my experience in the 80's was nothing like what I'm hearing in this thread. I just started swimming again (3 months ago) so I absolutely can't comment about current experience. Back in the 80's there just never seemed to be a problem. Your team would be assigned a lane or two depending on the type of meet and you warmed up as a team.

orca1946
December 1st, 2010, 11:50 AM
You cannot out rule jerkness ! Whatever we do to be nice, others will say I need speed to warm up & you are in my way! Have you ever see people leave the parking lot AFTER church ???!!! :bolt: