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View Full Version : USMS Code of conduct VS. USMS Free For All Forum



Conniekat8
July 31st, 2010, 09:12 AM
Consider this an open letter to whom ever else is in charge of the USMS website and forums.

This is something that has been bothering me for a while, and if I end up going to the convention I will bring it up in appropriate places as well. It has to do with the USMS Code of Conduct, and how it may or may not extend to it's forum communications.

While I'm not really young, I belong to the 'younger' generation, who is very internet friendly. I barely watch TV and read printed news, I get most of my information and communication online. This is getting more and more prevalent, and the internet is maturing.

This also means that internet presence is more and more important PR resource for USMS.

USMS website is very nice, decently organized, and somewhat formal. Having been involved in USMS Administration, locally and nationally I know USMS business is done in a rather formal manner as well.

Then we have USMS forums. Forums can be a very valuable interactive communication tool, and great for building a sense of community. However, when it comes to the USMS Forums, code of conduct and just plain common decency disappears. As if they are some magical territory where none of this applies.

I've spoken to many swimmers and coaches and productive people who could be a valuable assets, and they have a strong aversion to the USMS Forums, they consider it a cesspool full of combative weirdoes and irrelevant losers who have nothing better to do then to fight and argue.

Not only is this sad and detrimental to the overall USMS image, but it also ends up being a very wasted resource.

In the past, circa ‘05 or 06, I spent a little bit of time being a forum monitor here (very little, because due to time constraints at the time, I had to bow out of the job), however over the years, I’ve owned or moderated and participated in dozens and dozens of forums and interactive communities, moderated and not. My own personal business is online community and forum based. Internet is mainstream media now. It’s less and less place for cooks, geeks and weirdo’s.

The fact is that you can’t confront and cuss someone out on a pool deck, but you can log on to the USMS forum and do it with impunity. If you do it on the pool deck, a person can file a grievance against you, and worst case you can be expelled from USMS. In a forum, you can do a lot, with impunity. This is just wrong. Very very wrong. Yes, I’ve succumbed to the temptation of doing it myself many times, but just because I’ve done it, it doesn’t mean that I did the right thing. There are times I, and just about everyone else, gets upset, and doesn’t do the right thing, but do it anyway, because they feel secure that they will get away with it.

I’ve heard many arguments for relaxed moderation, or almost no moderation at all… things like, ability to opine and have an open discussion etc. Guess what, people share opinions and have open discussions across the world every day without engaging in bad behavior. Without antagonizing, attacking, cussing, excessively negatively judging, shaming and many similar things that people don’t dare to do face to face, are can get in trouble if they engage in them.

I’ve also heard arguments about “I’ve seen a lot worse places”, “this is not nearly as bad as it can get”, and worst of all, those are presented as if they are some sort of badge of honor. It’s a lot like, well, be happy we only cut your arm for this one, there are places where you could have been killed. Decent people tend not to go places where they think they may get killed or their arm cut off.

I don’t believe that forums should be an exception, and we in the USMS need to get out heads out of sand about this. Participating in forums should not be a license for almost anything goes kind of bad behavior. This is still a public place, and one that contributes, and will continue to contribute more and more to the USMS image.

Like I said, I participate in many online communities, and the most thriving ones have really good moderation. I’m not talking about super stuffy formal places either, but forums and communities that have to do with cats, scrapbooking, graphic arts, video games and several other informal activities. Places that have free-for-all attitude out of fear that they may stifle open discussion. Good people not wanting to come to the forums because they consider it a waste of time, frequented by a few irrelevant oddballs and a cesspool is what stifles good productive discussion. Being able to tell each other off, and yell louder then the other person is NOT good for open minded discussions. All it is, is brawling, that wouldn’t be allowed anywhere else.

It doesn’t have to be this way. The fact that it is, I believe points to the failure in oversight. I think USMS needs to take a closer look at why this is the case, whether it’s short-handedness, or peoples beliefs, or something else, and try to improve the situation.

Part of why I’m writing this is because of recent team and LMSC bashing in the forums. Several ‘offline’ people’s reaction was, bah, just ignore it, these are irrelevant goofs and oddballs who don’t matter that are engaging in this. This is very untrue. I’ve been able to track down some of the ‘brawlers’. They include coaches, USMS delegates, current or former USMS or LMSC officers, swimmers featured and highlighted in the Swimmer magazine, people who many of us already have or will be meeting face to face.

Compared to several years ago when I was a lot more active, it appears that things have gone significantly downhill. This is sad to see, especially considering that a significant segment if ‘internet’ is realizing that free-for-all is not a good way to go. Just look at what is happening with unmoderated free for all places, like usenet newsgroups, Craigs list, mySpace and similar places supposedly not stifled by moderation. I doubt that his is the kind of reputation USMS forums want.

There is no plausible reason why USMS forums should be exception to USMS code of conduct, or at the minimum, to common decency.

thewookiee
July 31st, 2010, 11:11 AM
Jim does a good job of monitoring the forum. He doesn't "call-out" people publicly for comments they make that might be offensive to someone.

Instead, he will PM them. He will either asking us to modify the post or to inform us that he has deleted the post.

If he feels the thread is too harsh, he will delete it entirely. If the thread is questionable, he will lock it, but allow it to read(like some of the tech suit threads)

If the thread contains smart alec comments, strongly questions/debates comments that are posted, criticizes usms/local governing bodies for decisions that are made, forumites jokingly insulting each other, he has allowed them to continue because they why the forum is here.

To say the forum isn't monitored is an insult to Jim M. Just because you didn't get the thread closed because you don't like beign challenged by others here doesn't mean the forum isn't monitored.


I think Jim does a great job with the forum and how he deals privately with individuals when there is a quesitonable action.

Just

Chris Stevenson
July 31st, 2010, 11:46 AM
To call the forums unmoderated, and a free-for-all, is incorrect. I think Jim does an excellent job of enforcing the forum rules (a link to which is on the top of any page in the forums), and they are consistent with the code of conduct. And the forums ARE very useful to many, and they have said as much.

A large majority of threads are non-controversial or fairly mild in nature (eg, "help fix my freestyle" or "the value of weight training"). On those threads where there are disagreements and passions run high, not everyone will agree precisely on what constitutes "civil" versus "frank and spirited" discourse and so he must exercise his judgment.

I think he does a good job of finding the appropriate balance between not being overly intrusive while still not letting things devolve.

Conniekat8
July 31st, 2010, 12:21 PM
To say the forum isn't monitored is an insult to Jim M. Just because you didn't get the thread closed because you don't like beign challenged by others here doesn't mean the forum isn't monitored.


I never asked for the recent thread to which you must be refering, to be closed. You are welcome to ask the moderators to confirm this.

thewookiee
July 31st, 2010, 12:53 PM
From the previous thread

"Personally, I am very saddened that the moderators of the forum allowed the unfounded bashing of your team... Heck, even facebook has better moderation then this place, which is pretty sad...

...These kinds of trainwerck threads can't be good publicity for USMS."


You wanted this thread to be closed. Heck, when Fort made the same comment in that thread, you didn't disagree with her then.

Of course, you will say that didn't want thread closed and that I misread your actual intent when you posted the comments in the other thread.

swimshark
July 31st, 2010, 12:59 PM
To call the forums unmoderated, and a free-for-all, is incorrect. I think Jim does an excellent job of enforcing the forum rules (a link to which is on the top of any page in the forums), and they are consistent with the code of conduct. And the forums ARE very useful to many, and they have said as much.

A large majority of threads are non-controversial or fairly mild in nature (eg, "help fix my freestyle" or "the value of weight training"). On those threads where there are disagreements and passions run high, not everyone will agree precisely on what constitutes "civil" versus "frank and spirited" discourse and so he must exercise his judgment.

I think he does a good job of finding the appropriate balance between not being overly intrusive while still not letting things devolve.

I agree. Jim M spends a lot of his time monitoring the forums and he does a great job. It is not a free-for-all by any means!

matysekj
July 31st, 2010, 02:18 PM
I agree. Jim M spends a lot of his time monitoring the forums

More time than I would like to spend - yes. A lot of time - no. And there are a number of others who have moderation capability these days also.

Conniekat8
July 31st, 2010, 03:33 PM
From the previous thread

"Personally, I am very saddened that the moderators of the forum allowed the unfounded bashing of your team... Heck, even facebook has better moderation then this place, which is pretty sad...

...These kinds of trainwerck threads can't be good publicity for USMS."


You wanted this thread to be closed. Heck, when Fort made the same comment in that thread, you didn't disagree with her then.

Of course, you will say that didn't want thread closed and that I misread your actual intent when you posted the comments in the other thread.

Are you a moderator on duty here?

Rob Copeland
July 31st, 2010, 04:04 PM
Are you a moderator on duty here?

No, but I am. May I be service?

swimnjim
July 31st, 2010, 04:11 PM
No, but I am. May I be service?

That is a totally loaded question Mr. Past President...

aquageek
July 31st, 2010, 04:17 PM
Some of the best friends I've made in swimming have come from this forum.

Rob Copeland
July 31st, 2010, 04:18 PM
That is a totally loaded question Mr. Past President...

Professor Wheeler, it's good to see you are still around.:bliss:

swimnjim
July 31st, 2010, 04:21 PM
Professor Wheeler, it's good to see you are still around.:bliss:

I am around, will see you at convention. I am however still trying to get my arms around the new and improved USMS so I can give it a big hug!

The Fortress
July 31st, 2010, 05:01 PM
Some of the best friends I've made in swimming have come from this forum.

You mean the irrelevant kooks, weirdos, geeks, bashers, and oddballs that bad kitty so kindly refers to?

I never knew we could "cuss" on this forum ... I can't believe all the missed opportunities ...

thewookiee
July 31st, 2010, 05:01 PM
Are you a moderator on duty here?

Nope. If I was, I would have banned Geek a long time ago for his comments on my beautiful locks of fur

I will be glad to serve as one, if they need another one. I can be fair and balanced on issues of behavior.

thewookiee
July 31st, 2010, 05:05 PM
You mean the irrelevant kooks, weirdos, geeks, bashers, and oddballs that bad kitty so kindly refers to?

I never knew we could "cuss" on this forum ... I can't believe all the missed opportunities ...

I take exception to being labeled "oddball" Furball is more accurate. As the legendary Jeff Foxworthy once said "if ya don't cuss, it don't count"

Chris Stevenson
July 31st, 2010, 05:15 PM
I never knew we could "cuss" on this forum ... I can't believe all the missed opportunities ...

You are not supposed to:


Do not use profanity, racial, ethnic, religious, or other slurs, or post sexually-oriented material, or any other offensive material. ... Do not circumvent the obscenity filter by using characters such as ! or $. (Examples are sh!t, , Fvck ). Use ######## or ****** if you really think it's necessary to swear. ...

Determination of what constitutes an offensive post is solely at the discretion of U.S. Masters Swimming and the forum administrators, and posted content may be altered or removed by administrators.

aquageek
July 31st, 2010, 05:20 PM
You mean the irrelevant kooks, weirdos, geeks, bashers, and oddballs that bad kitty so kindly refers to?

I never knew we could "cuss" on this forum ... I can't believe all the missed opportunities ...

I was just surprised to see there are forums for cat lovers and scrapbookers. Talk about kooks and weirdos.

mindy
July 31st, 2010, 05:35 PM
I am pretty new to forums, and weigh in usually with something funny, or at least I think it is funny. But I must say that lately, a few threads have been a little nasty, with many "insider references" These threads have certainly left a bad feeling for a newcomer to all of this. So I ask all of you this question? When you post, are you presenting USMS in a way that would encourage vistors to the threads to want to become a member? Are we showing a maturity level and a conduct that is becoming to a USMS memeber. Are we being encouageing in our talks even if they get heated.to show compassion for differing opinions? We hopefully are all adults, and I would hope that we all by this time have learned to filter our comments, so that someone does not have to do it for us. What does MASTER mean? The definition is pretty interesting!

The Fortress
July 31st, 2010, 05:51 PM
You are not supposed to:

I was being sarcastic.

Conniekat8
July 31st, 2010, 06:13 PM
Ah, thank you Rob, you already did a marvelous job at getting me up to speed on the forum rules :angel:

If you wish, you may disclose to the forumites that I never asked you to lock a thread.

If locking a thread is the only means of moderating here, than my apologies, I was unaware what it is I was asking for. Mostly I wanted the SPMA and NOVA bashing and excessive negative opining curtailed to a lower level.

Most places that i frequent, when a moderator PM's members whose posts ahev been reported offensive, and asks them to tone it down a notch or two, people actually do it.

I have to apologize, it is completely my bad for assuming that's how it works around here too. I'm not qute used to frequenting places as liberal as this one. :angel::angel::angel: :cheerleader: :bow:

Conniekat8
July 31st, 2010, 06:16 PM
That is a totally loaded question Mr. Past President...

I know he is, he had once made a mistake of appointing me the chair of the infamous and now defunct marketing commitee, way back when. I was mean to him back then too.

I'm glat that committee is gone, it was my final recommendation to disband it. Looks like Rob Butcher finally did it.

Conniekat8
July 31st, 2010, 06:18 PM
I was being sarcastic.

No, no *you*, of all people.

That's.
Just.
Scandalous.

Conniekat8
July 31st, 2010, 06:22 PM
I am pretty new to forums, and weigh in usually with something funny, or at least I think it is funny. But I must say that lately, a few threads have been a little nasty, with many "insider references" These threads have certainly left a bad feeling for a newcomer to all of this. So I ask all of you this question? When you post, are you presenting USMS in a way that would encourage vistors to the threads to want to become a member? Are we showing a maturity level and a conduct that is becoming to a USMS memeber. Are we being encouageing in our talks even if they get heated.to show compassion for differing opinions? We hopefully are all adults, and I would hope that we all by this time have learned to filter our comments, so that someone does not have to do it for us. What does MASTER mean? The definition is pretty interesting!

My particular favorite is "Death to Noodlers". I am sure about a quarter of our team would be delighted to find out that they may just fall into the annoing and better off dead noodler category. I tink that would be an excellent way to motivate them to hurry up and get in shape and get with the program already.

They're such a waste of pool space, which should be reserved just for us who think we're really good swimmers.

Conniekat8
July 31st, 2010, 06:26 PM
Nope. If I was, I would have banned Geek a long time ago for his comments on my beautiful locks of fur.

I'm afrad that with me on the other side, whomever tried to step in and create ballance is likely would get killed.... or at least noodled to death.
Poor Rob already has kitteh claw marks in his rump. You should be kind and not subject him to more. While he really IS a past president, there's no reason to hurt him over that.


I will be glad to serve as one, if they need another one. I can be fair and balanced on issues of behavior.

Why, I noticed taht if I tilt my head just right, almost a vertically flipped mirror image of what's in my avatar, you actually do look, umm... somewhat balanced.

Conniekat8
July 31st, 2010, 06:36 PM
I was just surprised to see there are forums for cat lovers and scrapbookers. Talk about kooks and weirdos.

Now that's the spirit. I bet your marvelous manhood just went up a notch or two. Consider repeating that few more times, your ego will soar.

[no charge for that spiritual advice]

Conniekat8
July 31st, 2010, 06:42 PM
You mean the irrelevant kooks, weirdos, geeks, bashers, and oddballs that bad kitty so kindly refers to?

I never knew we could "cuss" on this forum ... I can't believe all the missed opportunities ...

Sweetie pie, Bad Kitty is my nickname. If you really want to insult me, you're better off calling me something nice. Then may actually confuse me for a minute.

thewookiee
July 31st, 2010, 07:31 PM
Poor Rob already has kitteh claw marks in his rump. You should be kind and not subject him to more. While he really IS a past president, there's no reason to hurt him over that.



.


I am kind. What on earth are you talking about? I treat people like geek with the utmost respect that a person of his statue expects.

Rob is past president??? Wow..no way...I didn't know that about him.

Conniekat8
July 31st, 2010, 07:37 PM
Rob is past president??? Wow..no way...I didn't know that about him.

Yea, well, now that you know, no sucking up, the way Jim Wheeler does.

Oh, and guess what, our current President, Jeff Moxie.... SPMA guy. Don't you just love that?
That's probably why all the turmoil, SPMA is bursting at the seams form all the power concentrated down here.

:bolt:

Chris Stevenson
July 31st, 2010, 08:30 PM
My particular favorite is "Death to Noodlers".

I think that's a little unfair. It isn't a thread I feel compelled to follow but on the few times I have glanced at it, it is obvious people are relieving their frustrations by blowing off steam. It isn't a secret that there can be friction between recreational lap swimmers -- many of whom resent having to share lanes -- and some masters swimmers, who are pretty accustomed to the practice.

I think this is a different thing than deliberate rudeness to another poster, which I absolutely admit can be happen here, though I think it is not the norm.

Rob & Jim, I didn't realize there were multiple moderators of this forum, I think that is a great idea (both to give Jim a break and to give different opinions when needed).

Conniekat8
July 31st, 2010, 08:45 PM
I think that's a little unfair.

Hey, no sweat, it all allowed here, no biggie. I think I'll point the noodling USMS members from my team to the thread so they can see what kind of frustration they've been causing.

Maybe they'll starta a thread of their own... Death to elitists and speed cultists or soething like htat or something to that effect. The more the merrier. Noodlers too get annoyed.

We love different opinions around here, they should all get equal time. We have to *make* our noodlers buy USMS membership so we could get insured. I think it's only fair they too get some forum bang for their buck too.

It's all good, it's allowed. You should see our "Lane Two Nooner Ladies" few feisty 60 and 70 and 80 year olds. I just know they can run circles around the best 'opiners' aroung here. They're old and out of shape, they've seen it all, including a lot of things most of people here haven't seen yet. They're probably already reading anyways, they always seem to know what's going on.

The Fortress
July 31st, 2010, 08:51 PM
No, no *you*, of all people.

That's.
Just.
Scandalous.

So sarcasm is forbidden on your proposed forum? Are humor or irreverence or trash talking disallowed as well? And no more cantankerous disagreements on tech suits or the purity of swimmimg or Title IX? It's decorum according to your by laws, which from your recent posts seem to include name calling, insults, threats of litigation, belittling, name dropping and assertions of superiority on virtually every topic?

This forum has threads of all different varieties covering myriad topics, and the blogs and
workout sections (which people also comment on) are excellent resources. Yes, sometimes there is strong disagreement, but a "cesspool"?! No, that's what gives the forums color. I'd take our so-called cesspool over your bland and sanitized DYKWIA version (where only you are allowed to sling insults with impunity) any day.

The Fortress
July 31st, 2010, 08:59 PM
Now that's the spirit. I bet your marvelous manhood just went up a notch or two. Consider repeating that few more times, your ego will soar.

[no charge for that spiritual advice]


How can you possibly say things like this and then make accusations against us?

Bobinator
July 31st, 2010, 09:05 PM
Hi Conniekat8,

Please do not bash the forum!
I find this forum one of the best ways I know of to get good stroke advice, ask any type swimming questions I have, and view/copy the wonderful workouts posted by several of the finest coaches out there in swim land.
The great thing about a forum-type program is I can choose to read whatever I want and leave it at that. Anything I consider rude, trite, or unsavory I can ignore and believe me I do!
Some threads (noodler) are basically just giving swimmers a chance to vent their frustration due to aborted workouts caused by non-swimmers in the lap swimming lanes. It is a frustrating thing to know at any time a non-swimmer can hop into the middle of your lane and squelch your workout opportunity just because it's their right to be there. It's kind of like me going in the gym in the middle of a basketball game, throwing my yoga mat on the center circle and breaking in to a medley of Sun Salutations!
:bump: :bump: :bump:

Conniekat8
July 31st, 2010, 09:07 PM
So sarcasm is forbidden on your proposed forum?

Only if I give you a special pass
*muaaaaahahahahahahahaha*

*Kitty nearly passes out in a power-tripping bliss*

Conniekat8
July 31st, 2010, 09:10 PM
How can you possibly say things like this and then make accusations against us?

Actually, I made the accusations first, but the moderators set me straigh about opining etcetera.
Now I'm jus' trying to fit in.
Trying to act all prim and proper was too hard anyway. :banana:

:banana: I feel so... liberated! :banana:
:bliss:

oh, oops, I think that was my bra...
:bolt: brb

Bobinator
July 31st, 2010, 09:15 PM
I shall now exercise my right to leave this thread! Childish and inappropriate!

Conniekat8
July 31st, 2010, 09:18 PM
Hi Conniekat8,

Please do not bash the forum!


I'm not bashing, I'm opining, I just learned it a thread the other day, it's allowed, and very liberating.

Don't get all cry baby one me now if you don't like it, or wookie's gonna wookie you all over the forum.

Conniekat8
July 31st, 2010, 09:20 PM
I shall now exercise my right to leave this thread! Childish and inappropriate!

Ah, now we're getting somewhere, does that mean whan people other them are doing it, it's childish and inappropriate too?

Yea, you may not want to answer that, better to take the fifth while your friends are watching.

Thrashing Slug
July 31st, 2010, 10:36 PM
You know the best way to deal with trolls is to simply ignore them.

Oh, and I like this forum. The moderators are doing fine. Don't change anything.

Chris Stevenson
July 31st, 2010, 11:03 PM
I think I'll point the noodling USMS members from my team to the thread so they can see what kind of frustration they've been causing.

I can't tell if you are deliberately misunderstanding.

The way I interpret it, "noodlers" in that thread does not refer to the slower members of a masters team. I don't believe anyone in this forum ever bashes such people; indeed, I suspect a goodly number of people who frequent the forum might identify themselves as such.

The "noodlers" of that thread include people like:
-- recreational lap swimmers who refuse to share their lane or circle swim properly
-- aqua-aerobics types who do not like to get their hair wet and resent masters swimmers who "splash too much"
-- people who complain if the water temperature ever dips below 85 degrees.

Certainly such people have a right to go about their business but it isn't surprising that there might be tensions between such and USMS members. Even 70-year-old masters swimmers; we have some pretty competitive ones around these parts.

Michael Heather
August 1st, 2010, 03:26 AM
Are humor or irreverence or trash talking disallowed as well?

All other things aside, I fail to imagine any positive, constructive outcome of trash talking by, among or to anyone on the forums. Your (second person plural) humor and irreverence may also be seen as crude insults to someone else. Are you that sure of your audience?

The forums are public places. If you are not at all shy about your second grade teacher, mother or priest/ mullah/ rabbi reading everything you have posted, then by all means, post away.

swimshark
August 1st, 2010, 06:46 AM
I can't tell if you are deliberately misunderstanding.

The way I interpret it, "noodlers" in that thread does not refer to the slower members of a masters team. I don't believe anyone in this forum ever bashes such people; indeed, I suspect a goodly number of people who frequent the forum might identify themselves as such.

The "noodlers" of that thread include people like:
-- recreational lap swimmers who refuse to share their lane or circle swim properly
-- aqua-aerobics types who do not like to get their hair wet and resent masters swimmers who "splash too much"
-- people who complain if the water temperature ever dips below 85 degrees.

Certainly such people have a right to go about their business but it isn't surprising that there might be tensions between such and USMS members. Even 70-year-old masters swimmers; we have some pretty competitive ones around these parts.

I agree. The "noodlers" talked about here are not those who join teams, therefore aren't USMS members. Not that they can't read the forums since this is a public place - anyone can read. But the "noodlers" are not "made" (to use your word, Connie) to buy a USMS membership since this group that is talked about do not join teams.

I am proud to say I get beaten by a 75+ year old masters member (and former Olympian) every time we compete against each other. Has nothing to do with age. He's just amazing. I would never classify him a noodler nor anyone else in a USMS practice as one.

thewookiee
August 1st, 2010, 10:46 AM
Yea, well, now that you know, no sucking up, the way Jim Wheeler does.

Oh, and guess what, our current President, Jeff Moxie.... SPMA guy. Don't you just love that?
That's probably why all the turmoil, SPMA is bursting at the seams form all the power concentrated down here.

:bolt:

Wow. Thanks for the lecture again on the usms leadership. I can't believe that I really didn't know that Rob had been president, even after seeing the title by his name. You will probably next tell me that the chairman of the championship committee doesn't know much about pool measuring or something crazy.


All other things aside, I fail to imagine any positive, constructive outcome of trash talking by, among or to anyone on the forums. Your (second person plural) humor and irreverence may also be seen as crude insults to someone else. Are you that sure of your audience?

The forums are public places. If you are not at all shy about your second grade teacher, mother or priest/ mullah/ rabbi reading everything you have posted, then by all means, post away.

Trash talking with people you know is fun. We all know that Fort beat the briefs off of geek. We have been patiently waiting on stick legs to honor his bet with a naked 200 fly. Good thing it's fly, instead of backstroke. I think the bet should have included geek having to do belly flops into the pool at each end.

How can you not want to trash talk with someone like him? If you have seem him try to kick a 100-200, you always get good material to rub him on.

If a person doesn't like trash talking about forum members(who happen to be friends) skip the posts when they see the screen names.

Michael Heather
August 1st, 2010, 11:09 AM
Ah, but there's the rub. Trash talking to your small group on the big forum is akin to a gang taking over a public park. Yes, there are other parts of the forum to go to, but why would you force others to make that decision? It is very possible that they will leave and not return because of one incident. Not in the best interests of USMS.

If you find that trash talking amongst yourselves is inescapable, why not do it with PMs? Then you can talk all you want and not disturb the informational and idea exchange aspects of the forums that draw new people here.

General humor is one thing, but when your posts involve or address only one or two posters, it has become a private matter best taken to a private forum. You and your friends may laugh hysterically about your posts, but most people reading them range from not understanding the intention of the post, to some extreme of labeling the forum as full of trolls.

Is that your intention? Do you want that enduring legacy? A former poster is largely responsible for shutting down the USA swimming forums. Let's try not to create the same atmosphere here. Even as a joke.

aquageek
August 1st, 2010, 12:31 PM
You know, Heather, no one really wants to read your preachy posts.

Conniekat8
August 1st, 2010, 12:46 PM
Ah, but there's the rub. Trash talking to your small group on the big forum is akin to a gang taking over a public park.

It really isn't even that private.

When you are in a park, in a small group, once the words are said, they go away, and unless someone repeats them, they are gone.

In the forum, anyone can go anywhere. Words are written and stay here for everyone and anyone to read. The only way they can't be read is if the access to certain areas is made private, which it is not.

This is exactly what I am talking about when I say people are getting false sense of security and ownership. USMS forum isn't their little anything goes, and Code of conduct ahould be trumped by some silly notion of free speech and anything goes.

This is a public place, and things are in writing. People don't even have to be USMS members to come here. I think the only requirement is an email address.

Conniekat8
August 1st, 2010, 12:50 PM
You know, Heather, no one really wants to read your preachy posts.

Nice way to address the current Vice president of Administration in the USMS. I think this board falls under his jurisdiction, including the moderators here.
See: http://www.usms.org/admin/org.php

He is listed second to the president.

However geek, Noone really wants to hear or be private messaged by you either, but we are forced to. So, tough bananas.

Did you guys know that if you don't want someone to keep private messaging you, and you ask for moderators for assistance they won't help you.

Your only choice is to turn your whole private messaging OFF, and cut everyone you talk to in regular basis OFF.

I have NEVER participated in a forum that lame.

Conniekat8
August 1st, 2010, 12:56 PM
Trash talking with people you know is fun.

Yea, well, when you do it in writing in a public place, other then your friends can hear it, and object.

Seriously, internet and forums have been around for so long by now, I thought this was common knowledge.

Sounds like thisplace likes 'free speech' only as long as everyone is a part of the same clique. That's not free speech.

Colloquial free speech is everyone having equal opportunity, without interference or prosecution.

Legal free speech however, only protects individuals from expressing theirpolitical views, without being prosecuted by government. No more then that.

Conniekat8
August 1st, 2010, 01:04 PM
Wow. Thanks for the lecture again on the usms leadership. I can't believe that I really didn't know that Rob had been president, even after seeing the title by his name. You will probably next tell me that the chairman of the championship committee doesn't know much about pool measuring or something crazy.

My Fiancee has been the chair of a championship committee for many years, till last year, and I know for the fact, he doesn't.

Current Championship committe chair, I know him personally also. Even thouogh we hadn't talked in several years, in the past, we did have many conversation about pool measurements - where taught him some stuff. I would expect he retained most of it, he's a pretty smart guy. It's possbile he didn't. At the moment, I don't have more current feedback from him.

Also, did you know that Michael Heather Vice president of administration - second in command on many things, next to USMS president. I'm not 100% sure, but I think this forum falls under the USMS administration.

Isn't it cute when aquageek comes here and tells him, we don't want to hear your preaching here? I think that's quite a gem.

Here, read up on who is who in the USMS please:
http://www.usms.org/admin/org.php

Michael Heather
August 1st, 2010, 01:04 PM
You know, Heather, no one really wants to read your preachy posts.


Well if they make you uncomfortable, you could just ignore them. Or go to another part of the forums.

Conniekat8
August 1st, 2010, 01:07 PM
Well if they make you uncomfortable, you could just ignore them. Or go to another part of the forums.

I was told by our moderator, and the immediate past president that if it bothers me, I should turn my private messaging off, or that they can do it for me.

Doesn't sound like free speech to me. Free speech doesn't mean limiting one individuals ability to communicate, so that another one can.

Technically, one individuals liverties stop where another individuals rights beging. Those are the kinds of laws and truths and a bundle human rights that ourdemocracy has been founded on. The way they are applied in this forum and in USMS as a whole appears seriously deficient and skewed.

Conniekat8
August 1st, 2010, 01:12 PM
I agree. The "noodlers" talked about here are not those who join teams, therefore aren't USMS members.

Not true. In many poolsin order to have insurance, *all* people have to be USMS members, or the insurace is void - for everyone.
At ourpool, if we want to allow "noodlers" the only way the wole pool can be insured is to make them join USMS.

It's a way for USMS to beef up their membership numbers by a large silent group who is unaware of their rights and privileges.

I think it's a disgrace, really.

Conniekat8
August 1st, 2010, 01:18 PM
I can't tell if you are deliberately misunderstanding.


I understand perfectly.
Understanding and agrreing are two different things.

I also understand that *all* people have rights and feelings, not just the small group of people in this forum. I prefer to make an attempt to be objective everyone.

If people want to trash talk and vent,as many many people do this, I think they should do that in private. I don't think it's appropriate here in a public forum.

if it's appropriate for the public forum, then all demographic groups of USMS should be able to do it, not just one or two. ifonly one or two can do it, but bringing others can cause conflict, who gets to decide who 'rules the forum'?

Seriously, this forum belongs to the USMS, not to you, or the moderators for that fact. Moderators are hired employees ot volunteers, not owners of this place.

Conniekat8
August 1st, 2010, 01:26 PM
The "noodlers" of that thread include people like:
-- recreational lap swimmers who refuse to share their lane or circle swim properly
-- aqua-aerobics types who do not like to get their hair wet and resent masters swimmers who "splash too much"
-- people who complain if the water temperature ever dips below 85 degrees.


yes, yes, I'm surte that after seeing first few posts, and thinking that perhaps this applies to them, many people are going to be interested in finding out more about it. I'm yet to see customers do anything of the sort, and guess what, USMS memebrs are 'customers of USMS services', and need to be treated as such.

Not to mention that many 'noodlers' are quite possibly aspiring swimmers.

At our pool, and many pools across the country, noone gets access to the pool unless they can be insured. Noodler, water aerobics person, anyone, period.

For many of those pools, an avenue to get insurance is for members to belong to the USMS.

USMS insurance states that everyone in the group has to be covered, if even one person given access to the pool (like someone in a different lane) is not a member, the insurance is void for all in the pool.

Sounds like 50-60% or more of the non competetive, non aggressive swimmers that make up USMS people are not welcome to the USMS. Perhaps they should organize themselves and create their own association, one friendlier to their interests and level. Then you guys can have your own little fiefdom.

I'd like to see you have all the benefits and perks and competitons and things you enjoy you have now, when USMS membership drops to half.

LindsayNB
August 1st, 2010, 02:10 PM
Is it true that USMS insurance doesn't allow you to split the pool between, for example age group swimmers and masters swimmers, with each having their own lanes? Is it true even if the two groups are divided by a bulkhead?

These are not rhetorical questions, I don't know and I'm genuinely curious.

Karlene
August 1st, 2010, 02:21 PM
Lindsey,
Check out:
http://www.usms.org/admin/lmschb/lmsc_hb_ins.pdf

On the last page it states that if USMS group is, for example, in lanes 1-3 and a totally separate workout is occurring in other lanes that is not part of the USMS workout, the USMS group is still covered.

Rob Copeland
August 1st, 2010, 02:27 PM
USMS insurance states that everyone in the group has to be covered, if even one person given access to the pool (like someone in a different lane) is not a member, the insurance is void for all in the pool.This is not correct. If you would like accurate information, please refer to the Local guide to Operations or contact the national office.

Conniekat8
August 1st, 2010, 02:49 PM
This is not correct. If you would like accurate information, please refer to the Local guide to Operations or contact the national office.

Does this mean that noodlers on our team (Mission Viejo Nadadores) don't have to be USMS members, and this wouldn't void our insurance?

We were told that they have to, and we've been making everyone in the club be USMS members. We were told that even clinic attendees, who aren't USMS members, need to sign up. I think there's a one day, short term membership available for this, I'd have to check with powers to be.

I have to do this with all of our clinic attendees, before they are admitted to the clinic and can get in the water. If we don't have to do this, it's news to me. lat time we re-checked is couple years ago. has this changed?

Our club doesn't carry additional, third party insurance.

It may be different with pools that have several different clubs etc. Every pool is different.

My point is, the noodlers could very easily be USMS members, or maybe not. There's no way of telling when you look at their behavior and swimming style. Only way to know is to check wth the team or pool oprator, and see how the insurance is being handled.

Rob Copeland
August 1st, 2010, 02:50 PM
Does this mean that noodlers on our team (Mission Viejo Nadadores) don't have to be USMS members, and this wouldn't void our insurance?
If you would like accurate information, please refer to the Local guide to Operations or contact the national office.

Conniekat8
August 1st, 2010, 02:54 PM
Lindsey,
Check out:
http://www.usms.org/admin/lmschb/lmsc_hb_ins.pdf

On the last page it states that if USMS group is, for example, in lanes 1-3 and a totally separate workout is occurring in other lanes that is not part of the USMS workout, the USMS group is still covered.

Are they a part of the same club/team, or a different one?

IIRC, this is a requirement if they are a part of the same club/team. We don't use the term workout group around here, so I don't know how they are defined.

We were always told taht if if 'noodlers are a part of your team, and you want your team to be covered, they have to be USMS members' Were we told incorrectly?

I think this was true even if other insurance was preset, but I need to double check that detail.

swimshark
August 1st, 2010, 02:54 PM
Not true. In many poolsin order to have insurance, *all* people have to be USMS members, or the insurace is void - for everyone.
At ourpool, if we want to allow "noodlers" the only way the wole pool can be insured is to make them join USMS.

It's a way for USMS to beef up their membership numbers by a large silent group who is unaware of their rights and privileges.

I think it's a disgrace, really.

But that is the way your pool has made a rule. The rule is that all people in a USMS coached practice must be USMS members. If your pool has chosen to do something different, then that is your pool's choice, not a USMS rule. I have been a member of 3 different masters teams due to moving. None have had a rule like that nor have any pools I have visited had a rule like that.

Conniekat8
August 1st, 2010, 03:01 PM
If you would like accurate information, please refer to the Local guide to Operations or contact the national office.
We did, and we are operating according to their instruction. Mark Moore, or team dorector just confirmed this. He told me last time he checked was roughly two years ago. Have there been changes since then making it less strict?

You just told me something I said was innacurate, it would be nice if you clarified here, where you are telling me I'm wrong. We already asked local guide of operatins, and have structured our membership accordingly. Now you are telling me we are not doing it accurately.

You are a part of the national office, I belive second in command, no?
So which is it?

here's what we have:
One and only masters team, opearting at the pool.
We allow Noodlers to join our team, which is the only way they can get access to the pool.
No other workout groups, teams clubs etc, aside from USA Swimming part of Nadadores are present or opearting at the pool, or swimming at the same time as we do.

Do all of our team members have to be USMS members for us to retain insurance coverage for the workout group, or not?

If some of our swimmers are swimming uninsured, as there is no other insurance coverage present, what does this do to the overall insurance coverage?

Two years ago, when we did check, we were told, by someone who deals with the insurance at the USMS level, that if we want to be insured, all of our swimmers need to be USMS member so or we would be in violation, and noone iscovered.

Is this true, or not? I was confident it was, till you just told me I was wrong. Please elaborate.

Conniekat8
August 1st, 2010, 03:06 PM
But that is the way your pool has made a rule. The rule is that all people in a USMS coached practice must be USMS members. If your pool has chosen to do something different, then that is your pool's choice, not a USMS rule. I have been a member of 3 different masters teams due to moving. None have had a rule like that nor have any pools I have visited had a rule like that.

So what?
We're talking about noodlers here. The point is, in many cases, they can very easily be members of USMS. On our team they are.

Just because they are not a part of YOUR team, and you're not sure if they are USMS members, it doesn't mean it's okay to bash them.

They can very easily be USMS members, or not, no way to tell just by looking at them and theid swimming or noodling style.

Just becaus they are not a part of *your* USMS workout group, unless you check with the pool operator, you also don't know if they are not a part of another USMS Entity.

Conniekat8
August 1st, 2010, 03:08 PM
But that is the way your pool has made a rule. The rule is that all people in a USMS coached practice must be USMS members. If your pool has chosen to do something different, then that is your pool's choice, not a USMS rule. I have been a member of 3 different masters teams due to moving. None have had a rule like that nor have any pools I have visited had a rule like that.

Is everyone on *your* team a USMS member?
Does your team rely on USMS for insurance coverage?

Rob Copeland
August 1st, 2010, 03:09 PM
it would be nice if you clarified here,

It would be nice if I could clarify. The reason, I am not is that I do not wish to misrepresent our coverage and honestly I do not know the exact details of all coverage carried by USMS. This is why Iíve suggested you go to the official source for complete and accurate information.

Conniekat8
August 1st, 2010, 03:12 PM
It would be nice if I could clarify. The reason, I am not is that I do not wish to misrepresent our coverage and honestly I do not know the exact details of all coverage carried by USMS. This is why I’ve suggested you go to the official source for complete and accurate information.

I just edited my other post to add this, I don't believe you had a chance to see it yet, so in the interest of fairness, I'm pasting it here, so you don't have to go searching through my edits:

"We did, and we are operating according to their instruction. Mark Moore, or team dorector just confirmed this. He told me last time he checked was roughly two years ago. Have there been changes since then making it less strict?"

The Fortress
August 1st, 2010, 03:18 PM
So now we are supposed to cowtow to both you and Heather because of your esteemed positions? And you can treat us with utter disrespect and go on your bizarre rampages, but we can't even talk about gridge races? You are some piece of work, lady. What is in the water in California these days?

I believe you can put a poster on ignore.

And I believe Jeff Roddin can "retain" basic information and will not need further "education." (rolls eyes)





Nice way to address the current Vice president of Administration in the USMS. I think this board falls under his jurisdiction, including the moderators here.
See: http://www.usms.org/admin/org.php

He is listed second to the president.

However geek, Noone really wants to hear or be private messaged by you either, but we are forced to. So, tough bananas.

Did you guys know that if you don't want someone to keep private messaging you, and you ask for moderators for assistance they won't help you.

Your only choice is to turn your whole private messaging OFF, and cut everyone you talk to in regular basis OFF.

I have NEVER participated in a forum that lame.

swimshark
August 1st, 2010, 03:20 PM
Is everyone on *your* team a USMS member?
Does your team rely on USMS for insurance coverage?

I practice for an am a member of a USA-S team. The #1 ranked team in the country (which I have contributed points toward) thank you :)

When I was swimming under a USMS team and was the Vice President, the rule as we interpreted it was, anyone swimming under the USMS coach, had to be a USMS member. If they were in the pool at the same time and swimming on their own, they did not have to be a member of USMS.

Conniekat8
August 1st, 2010, 03:22 PM
Lindsey,
Check out:
http://www.usms.org/admin/lmschb/lmsc_hb_ins.pdf

On the last page it states that if USMS group is, for example, in lanes 1-3 and a totally separate workout is occurring in other lanes that is not part of the USMS workout, the USMS group is still covered.

I said:
USMS insurance states that everyone in the group has to be covered

On our team this means, everyone who swims. None of this is incorrect.

swimshark
August 1st, 2010, 03:23 PM
And I believe Jeff Roddin can "retain" basic information and will not need further "education." (rolls eyes)

Fort, I think you are so right here!

Conniekat8
August 1st, 2010, 03:33 PM
I practice for an am a member of a USA-S team. The #1 ranked team in the country (which I have contributed points toward) thank you :)

When I was swimming under a USMS team and was the Vice President, the rule as we interpreted it was, anyone swimming under the USMS coach, had to be a USMS member. If they were in the pool at the same time and swimming on their own, they did not have to be a member of USMS.

I didn't say anything about people who are not a part of your swim group, or not swimming under a USMS coach.

You appear to be are so eager to find me wrong and incorrect on something, that you either acidentally or purposelly misinterpreted what I said. I think you need to take a deep breath and chill out and set your personal love for me aside. Your bias is seriously showing, and it's not looking good.

As for a USA-S practices mixing with USMS, there is an unwritten agreement, written about in the the USMS insurance program paperwork stating this:

3. A member of USA Swimming practices with a USMS team. What is the status of the liability insurance for the
USMS member club and its members?

The USMS liability insurance is in full force for the USMS members. There is an unwritten agreement between USMS and USA Swimming permitting each otherís members to practice with one another. However, USMS coverage does not apply to the USA Swimming members, nor does USA Swimming coverage apply to the USMS members. However, the USA Swimming coverage is only in effect if there is a USA Swimming certified coach supervising the practice.

The USMS liability insurance is in full force for the USMS members. There is an unwritten agreement between USMS and USA Swimming permitting each otherís members to practice with one another. However, USMS
coverage does not apply to the USA Swimming members, nor does USA Swimming coverage apply to the USMS members. However, the USA Swimming coverage is only in effect if there is a USA Swimming certified coach supervising the practice.

I gather anecdotally that this is because the insurance provider is the same, and policies very similar, for USA-S, and USMS.

Conniekat8
August 1st, 2010, 03:38 PM
So now we are supposed to cowtow to both you and Heather because of your esteemed positions?

I don't hold any particular position, I'm just another volunteer for my team, SPMA, and USMS, but if you insist on bowing down to me, you may.

Would someone please give her a bath first?

I see that the days of being respectful of USMS leadership are gone too. It's wonderfult to have *anything goes* forums. Great PR for USMS.

Conniekat8
August 1st, 2010, 03:42 PM
And you can treat us with utter disrespect and go on your bizarre rampages

Darlin', I'm just following your example from the other thread.

thewookiee
August 1st, 2010, 03:54 PM
Ah, but there's the rub. Trash talking to your small group on the big forum is akin to a gang taking over a public park. Yes, there are other parts of the forum to go to, but why would you force others to make that decision? It is very possible that they will leave and not return because of one incident. Not in the best interests of USMS.

If you find that trash talking amongst yourselves is inescapable, why not do it with PMs? Then you can talk all you want and not disturb the informational and idea exchange aspects of the forums that draw new people here.

General humor is one thing, but when your posts involve or address only one or two posters, it has become a private matter best taken to a private forum. You and your friends may laugh hysterically about your posts, but most people reading them range from not understanding the intention of the post, to some extreme of labeling the forum as full of trolls.

.


Not really sure how you can compare trash talking amongst friends to a gang taking over a park. Trash talking among friends isn't even remotely close. Plus, if you look at it, the trash talking among different posters is viewed as friendly competitions.

Why do we want to PM it? A lot of us enjoy reading the trash talking that appears, mostly, on the usms national championship pages before nationals each year. Some of the older members have provided some of the best comments, yet, if the had to do it in a pm setting, the rest of us wouldn't be able to enjoy the quality of the smackdown.

I have been pm'd many of times by people telling me how much fun they have reading the back and forth between geek and myself. If you don't like it, put on the ignore list.


.

In the forum, anyone can go anywhere. Words are written and stay here for everyone and anyone to read. The only way they can't be read is if the access to certain areas is made private, which it is not.

This is exactly what I am talking about when I say people are getting false sense of security and ownership. USMS forum isn't their little anything goes, and Code of conduct ahould be trumped by some silly notion of free speech and anything goes.

This is a public place, and things are in writing. People don't even have to be USMS members to come here. I think the only requirement is an email address.

The forum doesn't have an anything goes. The moderators do a good job of keeping this place from becoming a free for all, as was explained earlier by a number of posters. Sounds like if you had your way, we would only be allowed to say "yes sir" "yes ma'am" and "thank ya sir" and "no thank ya ma'am"

You want a library, not a place for people to be passionate and have fun.


Nice way to address the current Vice president of Administration in the USMS. I think this board falls under his jurisdiction, including the moderators here.
See: http://www.usms.org/admin/org.php

He is listed second to the president.

However geek, Noone really wants to hear or be private messaged by you either, but we are forced to. So, tough bananas.

I have NEVER participated in a forum that lame.

Geek-please feel free to keep pm'ing me or writing on the boards because I for one want to hear from you. You make the boards interesting and fun to visit. I bring you some softer bananas too..




Seriously, internet and forums have been around for so long by now, I thought this was common knowledge.

.

Didn't you know, Al Gore invented the interent. He is pretty old too, so the internet must be very old as well.



.

Isn't it cute when aquageek comes here and tells him, we don't want to hear your preaching here? I think that's quite a gem.

Here, read up on who is who in the USMS please:
http://www.usms.org/admin/org.php

Geek is a diamond in the rough. If he doesn't like what someone is saying, he has the right to express it too. I would rather have someone like him or fort on here that says their mind, instead of beating around the bush with "let's everybody do the political correct thing and all get along, without ever disagreeing with someone so that they don't get their feelings hurt"

FYI- the multi-quote function works really well, so that one reply to numerous quotes without have to start a new post each time.

Conniekat8
August 1st, 2010, 03:56 PM
Is it true that USMS insurance doesn't allow you to split the pool between, for example age group swimmers and masters swimmers, with each having their own lanes? Is it true even if the two groups are divided by a bulkhead?

These are not rhetorical questions, I don't know and I'm genuinely curious.


When there are separate groups present, each of which carries their own insurance, I don't believe this applies.

This is only for people within a workout group, or over here I don't think we use name workout group, it's mostly within a club or a team.

For nadadores, for example, between the USA-S section and USMS, Nadarores Diving and Nadadores Synchro swimming, combined, we have at least 1000 swimmers... it can fluctuate between 700 and 1500, depending on the year and season. I'm not sure what our exact numbers are right now.

AFAIK, We lease the Pool from the City of Mission Viejo, 24/7. For an hour or so every day YMCA has their, I think 2 PM workout there, it's the only time Nadadores aren't in the water. I'm not 100 sure if the Y is subleasing it from us, or operates under the agreement with the city or what, I don't handle that part.

We at nadadores welcome *ALL* levels of swimmers. Competetive, fitness, noodlers, triathletes, people learning, people rehabilitating from injuries etc.

In order for our USMS and USA-S and insurance to stay valid, (synchro and diving I believe too, but I'm not involved on that end) every single nadadore swimmer *must* be a member of USMS or USAS.

Also, for our clinic attendees, I just double checked, it is the 30 day trial membership thing that we make them sign up for, in order to be insured during clinics.

JimRude
August 1st, 2010, 03:57 PM
You know, Heather, no one really wants to read your preachy posts.

Word. Save it for the SPMA politburo meetings.

Conniekat8
August 1st, 2010, 03:59 PM
FYI- the multi-quote function works really well, so that one reply to numerous quotes without have to start a new post each time.

I know, I don't feel like using it.

I'm surprized to see you know how to use quote at all. Someone must have just showed you.

swimshark
August 1st, 2010, 04:01 PM
I didn't say anything about people who are not a part of your swim group, or not swimming under a USMS coach.

You appear to be are so eager to find me wrong and incorrect on something, that you either acidentally or purposelly misinterpreted what I said. I think you need to take a deep breath and chill out and set your personal love for me aside. Your bias is seriously showing, and it's not looking good.

As for a USA-S practices mixing with USMS, there is an unwritten agreement, written about in the the USMS insurance program paperwork stating this:

3. A member of USA Swimming practices with a USMS team. What is the status of the liability insurance for the
USMS member club and its members?

The USMS liability insurance is in full force for the USMS members. There is an unwritten agreement between USMS and USA Swimming permitting each otherís members to practice with one another. However, USMS coverage does not apply to the USA Swimming members, nor does USA Swimming coverage apply to the USMS members. However, the USA Swimming coverage is only in effect if there is a USA Swimming certified coach supervising the practice.

The USMS liability insurance is in full force for the USMS members. There is an unwritten agreement between USMS and USA Swimming permitting each otherís members to practice with one another. However, USMS
coverage does not apply to the USA Swimming members, nor does USA Swimming coverage apply to the USMS members. However, the USA Swimming coverage is only in effect if there is a USA Swimming certified coach supervising the practice.

I gather anecdotally that this is because the insurance provider is the same, and policies very similar, for USA-S, and USMS.

Holy cow. I was trying to help you out with something you had questions about based on something that I had dealt with in the past. You obviously don't want help since you can't see that myself and others here are trying to give it to you and instead you are throwing in links and rules. Why you needed to quote the USA member swimming with USMS rule, I have no clue. I am a full member of a USA team and have been for 4 years now. I am also a USMS member and have been for 10 years now. Yes, dual membership. Do I need to give you a definition for that?! I know what the rule is for that since I was in charge of that aspect as the Vice President of my former USMS team before I moved. But I'm not the one on here asking questions, you were.

I'm done trying to answer yours since you obviously won't listen to what myself or anyone else has to say. You some how think you know it all and know everyone.

thewookiee
August 1st, 2010, 04:03 PM
I know, I don't feel like using it.

I'm surprized to see you know how to use quote at all. Someone must have just showed you.

Nope, wrong again. Now, that is something you are good at being.

thewookiee
August 1st, 2010, 04:11 PM
:applaud::applaud:

[QUOTE=Conniekat8;222086]Darlin', I'm just following your example from the other thread.

Talk about being derogatory with the use of the word "darlin" there




Would someone please give her a bath first?

I see that the days of being respectful of USMS leadership are gone too. It's wonderfult to have *anything goes* forums. Great PR for USMS.

As stated, we don't have an "anything goes forum" If a usms officer posts their opinion, that is not an official usms position, then the rest of the posters have the right to comment on it, either agreeing or ripping it. If forum members don't agree or feel the op is being snarky, the responders can express their view. That doesn't mean it is a "free for all" Don't understand why that is soooo difficult for you to understand.


So now we are supposed to cowtow to both you and Heather because of your esteemed positions? And you can treat us with utter disrespect and go on your bizarre rampages, but we can't even talk about gridge races? You are some piece of work, lady. What is in the water in California these days?




Word!

stillwater
August 1st, 2010, 04:17 PM
Wook-a-ding-dong,

After reading your emotionally charged tributes to your BFF Bill, I wouldn't want to be the one responsible to censor your two's intimate interaction.

Moderators,

Don't judge. Let them be whom they need to be!

The Fortress
August 1st, 2010, 04:18 PM
Darlin', I'm just following your example from the other thread.

Please do not call me "darlin'" or other derogatory names. Fortress (spelled properly) will be just fine.

I think you have out-posted me on at least a 10:1 basis on recent threads. And your posts have all been overbearing, rude, mocking and laden with insults. It is you who are setting a bad example for USMS. Perhaps Mike Heather needs to give you a scolding too?

In reality, I haven't even been on the forums that much lately. I tend to prefer the blogs, which are informational, inspirational and often refreshingly funny and honest.

thewookiee
August 1st, 2010, 04:19 PM
Wook-a-ding-dong,

After reading your emotionally charged tributes to your BFF Bill, I wouldn't want to be the one responsible to censor your two's intimate interaction.

Moderators,

Don't judge. Let them be whom they need to be!

Hey Buddy! Where have you been? I have been missing you warm, heart felt comments to me. Awww, it is so nice to hear from you.

stillwater
August 1st, 2010, 04:28 PM
Where have you been?

Time travelling.

thewookiee
August 1st, 2010, 04:30 PM
Time travelling.

Welcome back. Glad that you had safe travels.

The Fortress
August 1st, 2010, 04:42 PM
but if you insist on bowing down to me, you may.

Would someone please give her a bath first?

I see that the days of being respectful of USMS leadership are gone too. It's wonderfult to have *anything goes* forums. Great PR for USMS.

I really can't believe that you actually wrote this ...

Respect is earned, not automatically given. I have none for you. And, just to preempt your predictable reply, I don't care what you think of me.

Karlene
August 1st, 2010, 04:43 PM
Connie,
You stated that MVN doesn't carry any additional, third party insurance. That may be the reason why all MVN members, even those not participating in the formal workouts, are required to be USMS members. It appears that MVN may be utilizing USA-S and USMS insurance to cover their liability. While it may not be unique, it is certainly different than any USMS team that I've been involved with.

thewookiee
August 1st, 2010, 04:46 PM
I really can't believe that you actually wrote this ...

Respect is earned, not automatically given. I have none for you. And, just to preempt your predictable reply, I don't care what you think of me.

:applaud::applaud::applaud:

Conniekat8
August 1st, 2010, 05:08 PM
Holy cow. I was trying to help you out with something you had questions about based on something that I had dealt with in the past.

I've dealt with this for last 10 years myself. I don't have to know it all, as you seem to think. Some things I actually do know, regardless of your rash and twisted opinions.

If you followed the thread, you would have noticed taht only clarification I asked for was from was Rob Copeland himself, since he pointed out that something I said was incorrect.

I don't recall asking you for help, and considerign your continuous hostility towards me, you're the last person on earth I would want help from, should I ever need it, so don't go flattering yourself too much.

JimRude
August 1st, 2010, 05:12 PM
:applaud::applaud::applaud:

You will respect my authoritaaah!

(http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.southpark.gen.tr/avatars/605074-cartman_super.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.southpark.gen.tr/super-best-friends-wallpaper/&usg=__9InhFQUzUpEZgNdGdDgFEguzTsk=&h=485&w=503&sz=48&hl=en&start=0&sig2=c5mbsJNsAX-nmQCey-mOSQ&tbnid=sF76XVeIAWAd6M:&tbnh=129&tbnw=134&ei=MuJVTJiSBYeksQOrt-HZAg&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcartman%2Brespect%2Bmy%2Bauthority%26 hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26biw%3D1243%26bih%3D725%26gb v%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=350&page=1&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0&tx=35&ty=27)

thewookiee
August 1st, 2010, 05:24 PM
... you're the last person on earth I would want help from...

I believe I can safely speak for swimshark, when she says "what a relief to know."

Conniekat8
August 1st, 2010, 05:25 PM
Connie,
You stated that MVN doesn't carry any additional, third party insurance. That may be the reason why all MVN members, even those not participating in the formal workouts, are required to be USMS members. It appears that MVN may be utilizing USA-S and USMS insurance to cover their liability.

That's exactly what it is.


While it may not be unique, it is certainly different than any USMS team that I've been involved with.

Yes.
In some cases it works on way, in other cases, it workes the way you've seen it.

I was using our team as an example that I'm most familiar with (before it took a detour through the insurance details), to illustrate a point I was trying to make earlier about 'noodlers'.

There's no quick and easy way to know if they are and aren't USMS members. Theres' a fair number of pretty large teams in my LMSC, so it's not exactly a sare assumption that those people are not USMS members.

But even if they aren't, and even if I can participate in all kinds of things myself, as is pretty obvious here, I don't believe its' a good or a right thing to do.

Conniekat8
August 1st, 2010, 05:26 PM
Respect is earned, not automatically given. I have none for you. And, just to preempt your predictable reply, I don't care what you think of me.

Unlike your across the board negative attitude, I actually respect people untill they actually do something that warrants my disrespect.

My glass isn't half empty as a norm.

Conniekat8
August 1st, 2010, 05:28 PM
I believe I can safely speak for swimshark, when she says "what a relief to know."

I think I missed my cue to care about what you believe. Would you please PM and remind me next time?

Conniekat8
August 1st, 2010, 05:33 PM
You will respect my authoritaaah!


"NO"

[Kitty stomps feet in a fortiffic tantrum]
:p

thewookiee
August 1st, 2010, 05:41 PM
Unlike your across the board negative attitude, I actually respect people untill they actually do something that warrants my disrespect.

My glass isn't half empty as a norm.


That might be your problem. To blindly respect people is where problems are caused. Respect is something to be earned, not handed out.



I think I missed my cue to care about what you believe. Would you please PM and remind me next time?

No. I won't hide behind pm's. If I have something to say, I will say it for all to read. Wait, that might go against what you want out of a discussion forum. Oh the horror!

Conniekat8
August 1st, 2010, 05:42 PM
Perhaps Mike Heather needs to give you a scolding too?

Perhaps he should, he's welcome to it. I'd agree with him too.

What's going on here is extremely inapropriate, IMO, but hey, who cares, I'm a nobody, it's free for all opining, and allowed. Who do I think I am I to judge anyways. I'll just do my best to fit in, and see how that works out.

I just want to see what people *really* think about bad behavior, when they are not trying to justify their own. Looks like whean it's not *you* doing itm, even you don't agree that bad behavior is a good thing. Why, who woullda thunk!

I don't have to justify or defend my bad behavior, I openly admit I am being a brat, and doing here what I don't believe should be allowed, but is.

Those of you looking down your nose at it are just supporting my initial argument that it's not a good thing, regardless of whether I or anyone else is doing it.

thewookiee
August 1st, 2010, 05:51 PM
... I openly admit I am being a brat...
.

Won't get an arguement from me.

joy
August 1st, 2010, 05:53 PM
Boy this reminds me of the old days when Ion used to get everyone
riled up and acting like parents and children. We have now just come
full circle folks. :argue:

The Fortress
August 1st, 2010, 05:56 PM
I openly admit I am being a brat, and doing here what I don't believe should be allowed, but is.



Unfortunately, your "brattiness" is, as you seem wont to do, a hyper emotive exaggeration of what actually happens on the forum. Geek calling Wookiee a "furball" (or whatever else you'd like to cite) isn't even remotely the same as the venom and toxicity you've dished out. Your verbiage has basically become ad hominem personal attacks.

So I would say you're comparing apples to oranges, and not proving any point whatsoever.

And, for the record, I am not a "negative" person (though it matters not at all that you think that). I do, however, think independently and am not awed by name dropping or titles.

Conniekat8
August 1st, 2010, 06:09 PM
We have now just come
full circle folks. :argue:

yes, we have. That's exactly what I was trying to accomplish, to make my point.

Now that I made my point, I thank everyone for assistance and participation.

I think as a thread starter, I am now able to lock it up.