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cinc3100
August 27th, 2003, 01:48 AM
I like the article in swim Magazine about Rita Egan and Sylvia powell. These women are not your typical slim young swimmers that are elite swimmers but like the rest of us ordinary. Actually, given my previous background in swimming I'm also won of these average jills. As a youth I swam the 100 meter breast at 1:30 and as a 46 at 1:43.31. So, many of us do it for enjoyment and some exercise knowing that we will never be at the top of the pack. I think we should have more of these stories?. And Ion believe me you are not that bad. You did a 2:31 200 meter freestyle. I recently swam a 3:15. So don't feel bad and their is alot more competition in the men than in the women in 45 to 49. Not saying that their are not good swimmers in the women.

Bill Volckening
August 27th, 2003, 04:28 PM
Hi Cynthia,

I'm glad you enjoyed the latest SWIM Magazine. It was a fun issue to put together. Usually by the time the magazine arrives in my mailbox, I have read and re-read all of the articles so many times that I just thumb through to see how the layout turned-out. But this time, I really enjoyed reading all of the articles again. Phil Whitten did a wonderful job with this issue, and I was particularly touched by his Editor's Letter. If you haven't read it, go back and see what he has to say.

With so many competitive events in Masters swimming, it is sometimes challenging to balance out the magazine and represent the interests of Masters swimmers who don't compete or don't think of themselves as competitive. The September/October issue presented us with a good opportunity to explore some of these stories, and thus far the response has been overwhelmingly positive. We're always looking for ways to try new things with the magazine. We want to keep it fresh, and we want to keep our readers interested. Most of all, we want the magazine to reflect who we are as a group, and who we are as individuals.

Right now, we're in the process of writing our editorial calendar for 2004, and I can say without hesitation that it looks like another year full of truly wonderful features, inspirational stories, informative pieces, and fun!

Thank-you for the positive feedback. Keep on reading, and keep on swimming!

Bill Volckening
USMS Editor
SWIM Magazine

cinc3100
August 27th, 2003, 08:18 PM
I swam against Phil Whitten in the 50 meter breast at the Arizona state meet. And at the time I didn't know he had Parkinsons's and I'm impressed that has not prevent him yet from being able to swim.

Ion Beza
August 28th, 2003, 02:16 PM
Regarding the last issue of Swim magazine, the Sept./Oct. 2003 issue, I asked myself once again:

is there anything for my competitiveness in it?

Because usually there isn't much.

And this time, true to the Swim magazine's tradition, after going over it twice, there is nothing again:

.) to me overweight people are inflicting body self-mutilation upon themselves;

.) the article about Mike Collins is all made of peachy superlatives, and nothing of profound information.

I am thinking:

.) Bill Volckening is in this issue so often, and I saw that the guy has no integrity when promising in the summer of 2002 to give me a voice in an article in Swim magazine, then not to hear about it ever since, like if it never happened;

.) who sees me breaking my word by lacking integrity in what I promise?

jowelb
August 28th, 2003, 03:33 PM
I rarely post in the forums but I must respond to Ion's last post.

USMS is for everyone who swims, not just competitive swimmers, and not just for one person. It is inspirational for many to see stories about people who are using swimming not just to compete, but to better themselves physically and mentally. I felt that the most recent issue of SWIM addressed itself to these people and has been positively received.

On an aside, I think Phil Whitten's letter was very positive and inspirational on many levels but particularly to those who compete just for the love of swimming and are not necessarily elite swimmers.

To use the forum for a personal attack is not what USMS is about and not what swimming is about. I think that a) Bill Volckening has done an outstanding job representing USMS interests in SWIM and b) Bill is not the sole arbiter of what is seen in the magazine.

I would like to thank USMS, Phil Whitten and Bill Volckening for addressing all the swimmers in USMS in a positive way.

Jody Welborn

MetroSwim
August 28th, 2003, 05:15 PM
Ion, you don't seem to have a problem finding fault with what you read in SWIM and, with your usual finesse, you expressed some pretty harsh criticism.

Instead of just vaguely pointing out what you objected to and didn't like in the content, why don't you instead challenge yourself to make some suggestions as to how it could be improved, including SPECIFIC examples of how you would do things better?

Was there anything in the issue that you DID like?

KenChertoff
August 28th, 2003, 06:05 PM
At the risk of repeating what's already been said, Bill has done an excellent job as editor in representing USMS and its membership,in all their diversity. USMS is organization whose members have a wide variety of goals and SWIM has to reflect that. SWIM has had plenty of material in past issues devoted to competition. No one can expect that every article in every issue will be written for him.

kaelonj
August 28th, 2003, 06:19 PM
Regarding Ion's last post, I asked myself once again:

Is there something worthy of note in his post?

Because usually there isn't much.

And this time true to Ion's tradition, after going over it twice, there is nothing again.

Harsh words, probably so - but no harsher than those posted against Bill V. The fact is Swim does a pretty good job of covering all aspects of swimming, elite level on down. There are other publications that discuss the more scientific / technical aspects of swimming, if that's what you want then read those magazines.If you don't like it, don't read it or try offering some suggestions to make it better instead of just berating. Going by the earlier posts most people seem to enjoy the more personable side of the magazine (I think this was talked about in an earlier topic about TV coverage how the up close and personables were shown versus the actual swim event). If you keep your mind open you probably should be able to extract at least one thing from the magazine that you can apply to your own life.
Frankly I can't speak about your integrity because to be honest I don't think you have promised anything (at least not that I am aware of).
Anyways just my 2 cents worth. Thanks to Bill and the SWIM magazine contributers for the hard work you put in.

Jeff

gull
August 28th, 2003, 07:13 PM
Hypothetically speaking, of course, why would an individual choose to belong to an organization which consistently failed to meet his or her expectations?

cinc3100
August 29th, 2003, 12:12 AM
I was trying to be nice to Ion. Anyway, I weight a lot more than high school and Ion feels that I shoudn't swim masters because I don't weight around 130 pounds like I did at 18 years old. As for living up to expections I guess I should quit because I now swim a 1:43.31 breaststroke instead of times in 1:30 to 1:34 range like I did as a kid.

cinc3100
August 29th, 2003, 12:32 AM
Anyway, I drop time from around 47.12 to 46.17 in the 50 meter breaststroke, the last time I swam it. I made a big drop in the 100 meter breast from last summer from 1:53.10 to 1:43.31 and I did better at the 200 meter than the yard swim. I swam a 3:43 in the yard swim and did 3:58.07 in the 200 meter swim. And I did win the slowest heat in 200 meter freestyle with the 3:15.0 and the last time I swam 200 meter freestyle was back in the summer of 1974. So, some people think I should not swim since I only made two national qualifying times in breaststroke for my age group.

cjr
August 29th, 2003, 05:58 PM
Maybe I am missing the point to this thread but I really do not understand what all the fuss is about. Masters swimming is supposed to be fun and challenging starting at the beginner swimmer level up to the more experienced swimmer levels. USMS is all-inclusive, not exclusive. Everyone can learn something from each of the different abilities in the pool. I think people can inspire one another to a high level.

I just think if you’re in swimming for medals that is the wrong thinking and attitude. There is more to it that that. The journey along the way to achieve your goals is the best part. Swimming should be for fun, exercise, friendships built and the competition, but most importantly the personal gratification one gets from swimming regardless of their swimming ability.

I say kudos to Bill and those at swim magazine for including these types of articles.

Thanks
CJ

Glen
August 29th, 2003, 08:34 PM
Masters swimming is about everyone from the elite to the swimmer that just completed their first race doing in excess od a minute for the 50 free. Its about fitness, freindship and fun. A story about any swimmer can be very interesting, and for sure in Masters as we have swimmers that have battled back from cancer, or have like myself survived a heart attack, maybe they were just people that did nothing for years and decided to start swimming for fitness.
I am not an elite swimmer but I can hold my own and I enjoy reading about us everyday people that have accompliced what we have. For me and I am sure many more just seeing and reading what ordinary swimmers have done is enough to make me push a little harder. Just remember that any Master swimmer that has competed has still done more and swam faster than Billions of other people in the world.
I think that any swimmer of any level should be able to find something that would interest them in a swimming magazine. I know I can always find something in the ones I read through.
Even the best of the best must remember that we swim in Masters where everyone is the best.
Just my thoughts

Mark in MD
August 29th, 2003, 10:57 PM
For those who are curious, and Bill, please correct me if I miss something, I would like to add something to what's been said about producing Swim magazine. Kindly bear with me.

I take offense to pot-shots aimed at the content of this publication. It is not an easy job to plan a selection of balanced articles for each month's issue. The magazine tries to focus on articles which are relevant to all members of USMS, whether they are considered an elite swimmer (whatever that should be) or someone new to the organization. Due to the constraints of the size and cost, I believe that the publication endeavors to include "a little something" for everyone, therefore being inclusive of everyone. If Swim attempted to have "lots of everything for everyone," then it would probably end up being the size of a telephone book.

However, there is more to this planning process. One of the tasks given to the USMS Communications Committee is to review Swim to ensure its content meets the mission of USMS. It is not easy to sit down and very, very objectively review a given issue from a point of view of the general membership.

There's an old saying: you can't please everyone all of the time. Given the editorial and budget constaints, I believe Swim does a decent job. Yes, there are articles which are of no interest to me, but then, is there ever a magazine, newspaper, etc., that gives 100% customer satisfaction to the reader? I don't think so. Sigh! :confused:

Kindest regards,

Mark Hurley,
USMS Communications Committee

DISCLAIMER: The opinions expressed by this writer are the opinions of this writer and not necessarily the opinions of the members of the Communications Committee.

cinc3100
August 29th, 2003, 11:27 PM
Well, I not swimming for awards. I had several awards from my childhood swimming that I had to get rid of because I moved to another state and didn't want to bring them because it was extra baggage. I regret getting rid of as many as I did now since I reentered the sport. Mainly, I swim for my health since this is one of the few exercises I would do 3 to 4 times a week. And its true that I can still swim breaststroke faster than most lap swimmers men or women that don't swim in a masters program in my age group.

Ion Beza
August 30th, 2003, 12:25 AM
There are two points that I make:

1.) In life I look down on the character of people who don't keep a promise.

This is an excerpt from an e-mail I wrote today, explaining my education on this:

"It is not the story that I miss, since my achievements didn't depend on it.

It is the lack of your education that I miss:

when making a promise, any promise, in my education the promise maker owes the promise made to the recipient of the promise.

It is called keeping one's word, otherwise known as integrity
(and one can get out of the promise only by asking the recipient of the promise to be let out of the promise):"

2) the only new information to my knowledge in the Sept./Oct. 2003 issue (and I went thru 'Old Folks at World Championships' in page 8 as thru old news to me) was on the back cover of the magazine, showing 1972 Olympian Steve Furniss having founded in 1985 the TYR swimwear company;
nothing else in the issue exciting for my lifestyle, just fluff.

c j
August 30th, 2003, 01:46 AM
OK . . .

I've broused this site for a couple of years. Seen many posts.
This is my first.

Someone needs to come out and say what we're all thinking: Ion's a freakin' idiot. We've all been too polite and too articulate to actually write it in public. This post will probably get me banned from here, but that's fine. I had to say it, so I just registered to do so.

Ion acts elite and above us all, but his times in the pool are nothing to get excited about. Which is fine, but Ion's attitude doesn't match his ability. Don't get me wrong. I have long admired Ion's spirit, knowledge, and accomplishments as a late bloomer. His perspective has even been useful once or twice.

But Ion now attacks overweight people who are trying to improve with exercise. Un-be-lievable. He also sees no value in our publication. Really!! Ion, are you that dense? Can you see no value in these things you rail on? Masters Swimming has improved lives in so many ways. Lighten up, dude!

Ion, if we're so far under you, just go away. Find some Olympic-type forum and maybe they'll appreciate you and admire you. Why are you hanging around us losers? You seem annoyed with masters swimmers and their varied opinions, so what's keeping you?

Ion, really. Go read your post again. You crossed the line. I've actually felt sorry for you after reading your crap for a couple of years and seeing you at Nats. Now you disgust me.

Sorry to the good folks who manage this site, as I know I've broken your rules. I can't help but think this reply is long overdue and for the good of this place as a whole.

cinc3100
August 30th, 2003, 02:03 AM
I have also said some dumb thing on some of the posts. Anyway, I probably would swam a little faster if I took off some of the pounds. I don't thing we should get upset with overweight people in swimming. At one time in my late 30's, I weight as much as 220 myself and now I'm in the 190 to 195 range at 46 years old.

cinc3100
August 30th, 2003, 02:06 AM
Originally posted by cinc310
I have also said some dumb thing on some of the posts. Anyway, I probably would swim a little faster if I took off some of the pounds. I don't thing we should get upset with overweight people in swimming. At one time in my late 30's, I weight as much as 220 myself and now I'm in the 190 to 195 range at 46 years old.

Ion Beza
August 30th, 2003, 02:27 AM
c j, in one post you demonstrate your shortcomings:

(including by signing as c j: not much of a stand out in standing up for your own achievements, compared to ps, mn, cv, ja, and wk)

Originally posted by c j

...
Someone needs to come out and say what we're all thinking: Ion's a freakin' idiot.
...

Here:

Originally posted by c j

...
Ion acts elite and above us all, but his times in the pool are nothing to get excited about.
...

My times are outstanding for a late bloomer:

.) compare my times with your times, c g, er c m, er c v, er c o;

and

.) compare my times with late bloomers' times around.

Then, if you don't feel sorry for you, talk:

this is exciting and competitive, instead of the fluff you have.

cinc3100
August 30th, 2003, 02:34 AM
Well, you are a lot better freestyler than I'am. I'm better at breaststroke. All of us excel at different strokes and have different backgrounds. So, lets drop this thread since its causing people to get into an agrument.

Ion Beza
August 30th, 2003, 03:28 AM
This comes from the opening post:

Originally posted by cinc310

...
And Ion believe me you are not that bad. You did a 2:31 200 meter freestyle.
...

Within minutes after finishing a 800 meter free, I did a 2:31 for 200 meter free on July 27, 2003 in an in-season meet in a 50 meter pool in La Jolla, preparing me for the 2003 Long Course Nationals.

I didn't go to the 2003 Long Course Nationals because I was strapped for money this year, but a 2:31 for 200 meter free in a 50 meter pool in an in-season competition, for me that's a promising time before tapering:

I was averaging 30,000 yards per week over 49 weeks of training, before tapering.

Are you referring to this 2:31, Cynthia?

If yes, how did you find it?

Gareth Eckley
August 30th, 2003, 08:12 AM
I was very sad to hear the news about Phillip Whitten having Parkinsons. His book was the first book on swimming that I ever bought and reading it has helped me to rekindle my interest in the sport.

I hope that he can continue to swim. I am not sure how much Parkinsons stops swimming. I suppose it depends on the severity.

Personally I think that 'Swim' magazine is a good publication. You are lucky in the US to have 3 titles to choose from. There is only 1 title in the UK, 'Swimming', which is improving, but has few articles of the scope and depth that appear in 'Swim' and 'Swimming Technique'.

The masters swimmers in the UK and in Canada have a small newsletter. A good UK magazine on swimming was launched last year but the backers pulled support after only 3 issues.

It seems that swimmers in general don't buy magazines aimed at them. Is there no interest, or do masters swimmers feel that they have little new info to learn ?

My favourite publication in recent years was " Fitness Swimmer". This was excellent, with in depth articles, loads of photos, lots on technique and strength development etc. This folded after a few years as not enough swimmers bought the publication.

I wonder if 'Swim' magazine could have some of the ideas and content that was in 'fitness swimmer' combined with the Masters results and meet info that it already has. The result would be a very good publication indeed !

c j
August 30th, 2003, 10:47 AM
Ion, you could redeem yourself by admitting occasionally (or even once) that you are extreem and wrong.

Here, I'll put a challenge to you (which I know you won't pass up). I'll admit my own fault if you can admit yours: You correctly pointed out that I really didn't identify myself well. You're right. I know too many people who monitor this site, and I'm frankly embarrassed that I spoke up so strongly about you. There you have it. I'm hiding, but nevertheless had a worthy contribution to this site as noone else was really calling you to task on your BS.

I see your reply. Is that the best you can do? Address what I really said, Ion. However, your reply does prompt one of my own. I will give you a couple of hints. I'm older and much faster than you, even in your strong events of middle distance free. I also have a life (wife and kids and demanding job) outside of swimming. You should seek your own life to get some perspective. That's as far as I'll go.

Now, what's YOUR shortcoming, Ion?

cinc3100
August 30th, 2003, 11:24 AM
Well, I have acess to other links thru the Arizona site. It has San Diego-Imperial Lsmc and Spma in LA/Orange,Utah,Colorado, Pacifc masters-Northern Cal. And I look up the results for curiously. As for not being married, there are those of us that neither married or had kids. We are still busy in a different ways Ion may work more hours at work than you. From what I heard he does a lot of overtime. Sometimes I feel that people that are married or divorce feel that those of us that are different do that have a lot of free time on our hands or don't have something too do. We are a minority in society and it doesn't mean we are less responsible. Look at the talk-shows and there are millions of people that have children that they are not responsible for, so those of us for different reasons that chose not to have them are more responsible adults. Not putting down parents but there is more to life than being married or having kids.

laineybug
August 30th, 2003, 12:43 PM
Here! Here! Cin!

But I think the point was that marriage, children, job, etc limit the time one can swim. Despite his limited time, C J is saying he is still better than Ion who has more time to practice. I think C J was also saying that Ion is so wrapped up in himself that he has lost perspective. He wasn't generalizing to all single folks.

Ion Beza
August 30th, 2003, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by laineybug

...
Despite his limited time, C J is saying he is still better than Ion who has more time to practice.
...

You see, what I said and what I say is that:

1.) as a late bloomer, my times stand out amongst late bloomers;

2.) as a late bloomer, my times are good amongst lifelong swimmers;

I am in the top 10% in every Masters club I have been across U.S., and in meets I overtake plenty of lifelong swimmers who are already a small percentage of the people who dare to compete.

What I do in training must be good to achieve 1.) and 2.).

1.) and 2.) are cj's, laineybug's and others' ignorance.

Experiment with this:

.) take a fast twitch track star -say Tim Montgomery-, put him in the water, and ask cj and laineybug to develop the track star from the age 28 upwards, better than Gary Hall in order to make the U.S. Olympic Team;

.) because this is unheard off in swimming, there is a physical limitation in being a late bloomer in swimming.

With this perspective, I would like to see cj's name, times and background as lifelong swimmer against my times and background as a late bloomer:

it will display my competitiveness and show that cj's "...I've actually felt sorry for you after reading your crap for a couple of years and seeing you at Nats...." is stated by a null.

msgrupp
August 30th, 2003, 09:35 PM
I hate to jump into something (other than the pool) but a few people in particular should figure out that the time for scholarships to college is well gone. As adults we swim for our own enjoyment and enrichment. We don't have to prove ourselves to one another by showing that we are lifetime competitive swimmers or are recent arrivals to the swimming scene.

I swim because I LIKE to swim. I try to make time for it in my day but I don't live and breathe swimming. I don't keep meticulous records on my computer or log so that I can prove that I've improved from one year to the next. Or that I swam on a particular day in a certain suit with a number of people in my lane or the outside temperature was X.

People, and some of you probably recognize yourselves,--Get a life!!! Meet people other than swimmers! Read a book--and not about swimming or swimming methods!

I LIKE to see articles in Swim that show the differences in the people participating. I did like to read Fitness Swimmer and was sorry to see it go. BUT--I don't dwell on each issue of Swim and pick it to pieces. Someone else pointed out--you don't like EVERYTHING in a magazine--you read what you want and just leave the rest. If you don't like the editorial content--then don't read it or purchase it!

Ion Beza
August 30th, 2003, 09:47 PM
I think this is for me:

Originally posted by msgrupp

...
People, and some of you probably recognize yourselves,--Get a life!!! Meet people other than swimmers! Read a book--and not about swimming or swimming methods!
...

To which I respond, that you have a life, when:

a.) you speak four languages like I do;

b.) you make 100% of your living in the third language, not in your native, not in a second, but in a third;

c.) the I.N.S. brings you in U.S. because there are not enough qualified local scientists at the level of your work;

d.) you are a late bloomer in swimming, training to fit among the top 10% anywhere in U.S.;

e.) you follow the sport, in order to excel.

Now, I meet a.), b.), c.) and d.) which is not ordinary, and I bet that you don't meet them.

Do you think that I don't have a life but that you do?

It is the other way around...

c j
August 30th, 2003, 10:16 PM
Ion, what about our challenge? Your fault? Ducking me?

How bout justifying your attack on SWIM and overweights? I'm waiting eagerly for that explanation, as what you said earlier is nonsensical.

MSGrubb was right on. Absolutely right on.

And Ion, just to satisfy you, top ten (not %) in various years in three strokes. With some years on you. (Bet that'll keep ya busy!)

And, best of all, I'm not obsessed. I have a life outside the pool (which I've seen very little of this year). Hell, my kids don't even know what an individual sport is.

You're WAY out there . . . further than I thought after seeing your latest.

Ion Beza
August 30th, 2003, 10:25 PM
So, to begin:

1.) what's your name, cj?

2.) when did you start swimming, cj?

3.) what are your times -that I can check under your name- in 2003?

cinc3100
August 30th, 2003, 10:37 PM
I was saying that single people are sometimes busy too. Oraph Windrey who never married or had children is very busy with her TV production and is the wealthest black person in the United States. In Ion case maybe he should have other interests besides the swimming. Believe me as a teenager the swimming almost crush my spirit and maybe this its doing the same to Ion as an adult since he has to swim against many guys that swam either age group or college swimming when they were younger. The women have less of that problem because college programs for them were not as a able in the 1970's as they were for the guy swimmers. I'm glad Ion came to the US legally. The state of California has too many people that immirgated illegality and I'm not just talking about Mexicans.

c j
August 30th, 2003, 10:49 PM
You missed my point. Now you're obsessed with me and overlooking our issue at hand. I'm not goin' there with you, as there's no purpose.

Again, get OFF the swimming and address why you attack SWIM magazine and overweight people who try to better themselves by choosing to exercise.

Sorry Ion, as I've said before, I have long admired your spirit, knowledge and accomplishments. You've done well. You just need to tone it down a bit. You manage to offend several people about once a month. You could bring so much more to the table by sensing when to relax and respect the way others choose to live and think. You don't need to go out of your way to piss people off and take the value and enjoyment out of a message board intended to be constructive. It's OK to disagree without being disagreeable. Take a break from this obsession called swimming. It's healthy.

Ion Beza
August 30th, 2003, 10:51 PM
It's been half an hour since I posted this:

Originally posted by Ion Beza
So, to begin:

1.) what's your name, cj?

2.) when did you start swimming, cj?

3.) what are your times -that I can check under your name- in 2003?
Any problem with you giving me your identity cj, for the purpose of me verifying you?

Because without me verifying you, cj, your claims of achievements in swimming are baseless, including yesterday's:

Originally posted by c j

...
Ion acts elite and above us all, but his times in the pool are nothing to get excited about.
...
I've actually felt sorry for you after reading your crap for a couple of years and seeing you at Nats.
...

In your vein so far, I would claim that I am f e and that I make top 4 in an USMS age group.

cinc3100
August 30th, 2003, 11:51 PM
Ion, just cool down. If they don't want to tell you who they are then they don't have too.

Ion Beza
August 31st, 2003, 12:46 AM
Claims that are made, should be verifiable by checking the claim and the identity of the claimant.

Like in my case.

Otherwise, the claims are null.

cinc3100
August 31st, 2003, 02:18 AM
Ion, just goes on like Vlad the Impaler. Maybe he thinks the rest of us are Turks. Sorry, Ion, just jokng. But you would know more about Vlad than me since he was my of your countrymen.

aquageek
August 31st, 2003, 07:23 AM
I look forward to receiving my SWIM magazing and enjoyed the most recent one. I think the magazine does a nice job of balancing competitive, fitness and recreational swimmers. I usually do the included workouts a couple of times during the month. I have also found the ads useful for when I need a new swim supply. All-in-all I think it's a nice read and one I look forward to getting.

What I do not look forward to is reading Ion's endless rambling about his late in life swimming and how much better he is than all of us. It is also tiresome to hear his constant complaining about his language roadblocks and how great he has done in the US. I suspect V02Max is coming soon, watch out.

CJ is entitled to his/her opinion as much as you are. He/she is also entitled to his/her privacy. Privacy might be a foreign concept to someone from a communist country.

eliana2003
August 31st, 2003, 07:31 AM
Back to the original comment: I, too, liked the issue of Swim, and did enjoy the articles on the average women, as it helped to put my own training in context... I get a little fed up sometimes with the superfit swimmers in my pool. Don't get me wrong, it's great to train with the elite swimmers, but it can be a bit frustrating to consistently be the slowest... So, it was nice to read about other swimmers who were overcoming adversity to swim...

cinc3100
August 31st, 2003, 11:27 AM
I relate to what you are saying Eliana. I never been that good as a kid or an adult. And many people who start in the sport past 40 years old can't be at the top, some do but its getting harder as more and more young people come from an elite background that did it as teenagers and young adults. Its nice to cover us that are not different from the rest of the population that swims laps.

cinc3100
August 31st, 2003, 11:34 AM
Well, I agree with you about the late swimming in the sport. I could complain about taking 25 years off and that explains why I swim 13 seconds slower in the breast at a 100 meter swim. But the language problem is real many immirgants do have problems with written English and Ion is much better than most. The state he is from many immirgants didn't even have a grade school education and can not write either English or Spanish since many of them come from rural parts of Mexico or Central America or Southeast Asian countries like Laos and can't write in either English or Laoan.

c j
August 31st, 2003, 12:13 PM
Ion . . .

Let's just pretend I've never swam . . . can't tell a starting block from a stopwatch. The sport just interests me, and I'm just curious what your beef is with fat people and a magazine called SWIM. With me so far?

Now, can you defend yourself without getting sidetracked?

Still waiting . . .

Ion Beza
August 31st, 2003, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by c j
Ion . . .
...
The sport just interests me, and I'm just curious what your beef is with fat people and a magazine called SWIM.
...

I told fat people where I was prior to San Diego, in Tennessee, thinking of their body like if it was a car, what would they rather have a Toyota or a Lamborghini?

I tell fat people where I am now, in San Diego, "What's the point to be and look like you do when you are in year-long sunny and outdoorsy San Diego? You could be and look like this in a New Jersey shopping mall, too."

The following questions, connect with a post on the first page asking me what I would rather have in Swim magazine:

.) if fat and unhealthy people are worth cajoling in Swim magazine articles, then training like me in swimming as a late starter who catches up in a competitive way with the sport as it is being practiced by lifelong racers is that worth ignoring?

.) what about who Fritz Lehman (new world record holder in 100 meter back, in men 45 to 49), Bill Specht, Tom McCabe, Andreas Seibt, Barbara Dunbar, Paul Smith, Jim Thornton, Rich Abrahams are?
I know them better than Swim magazine does, with the exception of Rich maybe;
I re-peat: I know them better than Swim magazine does;

how are they training (I know better than Swim magazine about how Tom McCabe -a tough sprinter- tapers, he wrote me a technical e-mail on this, and gee, it doesn't look like a Swim magazine fluffy article), how are they living and working, how are their families and how is their support, is that worth ignoring by Swim magazine, too?

it was last summer, in July, before the 2002 Long Course Nationals, that in a thread in this forum it appeared that a bigger emphasis on performances by adults and supporting this with TV exposure of the Masters Nationals, and with an in-depth interest in performers' lifes by Swim magazine -including sponsorships-, is needed;

lack of sponsorship, I guess that might be part of why one doesn't see a re-peat in 2003 of the 1:58 for 200 meter free by Paul Smith swam in 2001;
the potential is there though, just ignored and wasted with fluff from the likes of Sept./Oct. 2003 Swim magazine issue, and re-iterated by mssgrupp's take in this thread that there are better things to do in life.

gull
August 31st, 2003, 02:20 PM
Ion does raise some valid points, but his style tends to alienate people. Perhaps it's cultural or maybe it's the language. The fact remains that obesity is a significant problem in this country--it's an independent risk factor for coronary artery disease and has been shown to shorten life expectancy. While USMS encourages participation, shouldn't the organization also encourage a healthy lifestyle? While I applaud Rita's commitment to a regular exercise program, she does need to lose weight and modify her diet; ice cream and chocolate covered cookies are not going to get the job done. This has nothing to do with political correctness; what would be our response if Rita were smoking a pack a day?

Regarding SWIM, it's difficult to appeal to all 40,000 USMS members. I think it's harsh to say that nothing in the magazine is of interest, although Ion is entitled to his opinion. I thought the editorial alone was worth the price; it's unfortunate that most of us don't gain this perspective until confronted with a serious illness of our own.

Finally, it is true that there does not exist a magazine devoted to serious (I didn't say elite) Masters swimmers. There is information out there, but it's widely scattered. There are many issues unique to us as older swimmers because we attempt to train and compete at an age where most of the population won't even walk 30 minutes daily.

laineybug
August 31st, 2003, 02:32 PM
Ion

Fluff to you is someone else's meat. The magazine isn't published for Ion. It is published for swimmers, whomever they are. The magazine must strive to meet the interests of all of its readers. An analogy is the classroom. A good teacher generally teaches to the middle of the class, supplements for the above average and modifies for the below average. With the majority of Master swimmers being fitness swimmers the majority of its articles should be aimed to or focused at them. You know, reading about elite swimmers and their techniques, or technical articles, all the time gets pretty boring. If the magazine doesn't meet you needs find one that does, its that simple.

I believe your problem is that you feel slighted because the article about you has never transpired. GET OVER IT. This summer, I was told that a news piece was going to be done on me. The day the person who was to write the article, and photographer, were suppose to be at my practice, I dressed in a brand new Speedo (bought for the occasion) and was generally excited, nervous, proud and pleased. I never found out what, but something interfered and the article was never written. I was disappointed for about fifteen minutes, but realized it wasn't worth the energy. There are more important things in life than having my accomplishements published for others. I don't need publicity to validate my worth.

Shaky
August 31st, 2003, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by Gareth Eckley
It seems that swimmers in general don't buy magazines aimed at them. Is there no interest, or do masters swimmers feel that they have little new info to learn ?

I suspect it has less to do with circulation than with selling the pages to advertisers.

Magazines make their money off advertisers. Since swimming isn't necessarily a high-dollar equipment sport, there's not that much incentive to advertise. Sure, there are gear heads who will buy the latest computer-designed water-foil kickboard, and there are truly serious swimmers who really must have an endless pool on the back deck to maintain their training schedule; but for most of us, our spending is limited to suits, goggles, shampoo, shower shoes and pool passes. With a spending profile like that, there are really only a few companies that get substantial benefit from advertising to this audience.

I never subscribed to swimming magazines but would pick them up occasionally in the coffee shop. I wondered what happened to Fitness Swimming. That was a good mag. Too bad.

And on that other issue... Ion's ego is so large it keeps crashing my computer. Do they make swim caps in triple-extra large?

c j
August 31st, 2003, 03:25 PM
Ion:

Thanks for your reply. While much of it rambled off target, I truly appreciate that you finally tried to respond to the issues, and stopped your personal crusade to identify me and compare times. Believe me, neither one of us want to go there.

You must take care not to generalize. I agree there are many people who are lazy and ignore fitness to their own detriment. That was your point, and a very good one. I appreciate gull80's comments, which are better than my own.

On the other hand, Ion, there are many overweight people who try very hard day after day to improve. They want to look like you, do the right things, but don't get there. They were born with a condition they cannot totally remove. Perhaps you have an accent? You would not appreciate anyone railing on you for that.

I don't think that SWIM Magazine has been "cajoling fat and unhealty people." Rather, it tries to be inclusive to the new faces out there discovering the benefits of swimming. Do you really think it's better to ignore or even offend them? Come on, Ion.

Many of those new faces are not as thin and fit as you. We all have to start somewhere if we choose to take up the sport. Some start later and some start heavier than others. As a late-bloomer, you of all people should understand this concept. You've reminded us so many times how much you have improved since joining. Hopefully noone slammed you as you started your climb.

I think it's great that SWIM features newcomers who aspire to improve, even when they aren't as fit as the great Ion Beza (or your average Olympian). Yet, Ion, you slam them for existing and you slam SWIM for acknowledging their efforts. Isn't that counterproductive to our sport? You've been told by others that there are at least one or two other publications that focus on fitness, technical and elite topics. That's great. I've been a fan of those publications for 25 years.

However, there is definately a place for SWIM Magazine. It serves a different purpose. Masters swimming thrives on an influx of new members. Many of the new faces are adults who seek to better themselves after years of neglect. That's a healthy and inclusive goal, and USMS is a healthy and inclusive group.

Ion, if you still don't get it, then don't read it. And go away. It's that simple. Certainly don't criticize the articles about beginners or average swimmers. Those are good people you do not know. At the next Nationals, try to rub elbows with a few of them (at least as much as you try to rub elbows with the names you dropped in your latest reply). They were like you at age 28 . . . excited to be starting a new passion. Your life will be richer.

Thousands of us enjoy the "fluff" (as you call it) next to the stories about the technical and/or elite. Those of us who have competed and placed on the national level in USMS and USS don't try to exclude you because you do a 2:30 200 meter free. Rather, we applaud and envy your ability to get faster as an adult (while most of us with the solid background get slower). That's what masters swimming is about, or at least part of it!

laineybug
August 31st, 2003, 03:37 PM
After I posted my last message I realized that what I said may have been misleading. I want to clarify now before someone calls me on it. The article I was referring to was to be in a local publication.

Elaine

cinc3100
August 31st, 2003, 10:38 PM
Well, Ion a lot of heavy set people in California come from poor immirgant backgounnds and many of them are the children of immirgants. Hispanics make up 32 percent of the state, and while they are middle upper class slender hispanics there are a lot overweight people among the lower income classes and hispanics make up a larger portion of lower income people. Granted, there slender people among the poor working classes and heavy set people the upper middle class. But the people that jog or swim or run are more likely to belong in the upper-middle class. So, some people don't have the same opportunities you do to exercise.

Ion Beza
August 31st, 2003, 11:28 PM
Originally posted by c j
Ion:
...
Those of us who have competed and placed on the national level in USMS and USS don't try to exclude you because you do a 2:30 200 meter free.
...

I swam that 200 meter free on July 27, minutes after finishing a 800 meter free.

And after training 35,500 yards the week before.

I was telling people that I have some spectacular races in me.

To be done in the 2003 Long Course Nationals, after three weeks of taper.

I started tapering July 28, but August 10 -four days before my first event in the 2003 Long Course Nationals-, I recognized that financially I wasn't able to travel to the meet.

So I didn't go to the 2003 Long Course Nationals and unleash the races in me.

c j
September 1st, 2003, 12:27 AM
And your point is?

Again, you're missing my point,
AND getting sidetracked by . . .
none other than . . .

Yourself.

Come in for a landing, Ion! I guess you'd be a world record holder if you didn't have so many excuses.

Ya know, I get just as annoyed with your inflated ego as you get with fat people who don't spin their wheels overtraining.

laineybug
September 1st, 2003, 12:28 AM
Ion,
I don't believe anyone here looks down on your personal, professional and athletic accomplishments. It is your persistent need to prove to others how great you are, your need for constant adoration from others, your tendency to put others down to make yourself appear better, your need to right 100% of the time and your general negative attitude that everyone objects to. If you continue on this path, you will successfully alienate everyone you come in contact with. No one will want to be around you, no matter how fast you swim, where you rank, how many languages you speak or how accomplished you are in your field. You have probably already experienced this rejection, whether you admit it or not. The rejection is most likely the reason you lash out in the way that you do, which unfortunately only serves to push others even further away.

c j
September 1st, 2003, 12:34 AM
And the fact that you ignored my other comments mean that either you're seeing the light . . . or you don't understand.

c j
September 1st, 2003, 12:36 AM
Laineybug, you are right on target with that. Thanks.

Ion Beza
September 1st, 2003, 12:41 AM
After considering c j's entire last post, I think that c j is rambling on tangent issues (like feeling that I should welcome newcomers to fitness, not knowing me personally on this matter because I do welcome them more than themselves they do it for themselves), and after re-reading the Sept./Oct. 2003 Swim magazine, I stick to it being a waste.

.) 'Making Masters Fun: Is Your Pool FUNKY?':

is a waste;

.) 'Goal-Setting':

how much more banal and generic can you get?;

.) "...I just love the pursuit of doing something right,..." in page 21:

who doesn't?

and

since when has this slogan been the profound recipe of any achievement in line with my achievements I am talking about?;

.) not one analysis in Swim magazine of a high achiever's ethics.

When people in this thread mention that when unhappy with the information in Swim magazine, I have the option to gather my information elsewhere, I point out to them that when posting frequently in this forum, I do display knowledge of information that I gather from other sources -information that Swim magazine doesn't afford-.

I am stating that to my achievements, the Swim magazine is mostly a waste, with its bureaucratic style of peachy superlatives and accolades to former age-group swimmers who keep in shape in USMS.

Ion Beza
September 1st, 2003, 12:46 AM
Originally posted by c j
And your point is?
...

The point is that anecdote I bring up, is more exciting than the entire Swim magazine issue:

back to back 800 free and 200 free in those fast times (for a late bloomer) before tapering, that beats in work ethics, say 'Is Your Pool FUNKY?'.

cinc3100
September 1st, 2003, 12:47 AM
Well, I understand a little about your background Ion. I didn't come from a nice middle class background either. Lived in a moble home until 12 years old and my mother and father both work in an era when Mothers stayed home. MY parents were able to get a little track house back in 1969. I attended school with a lot of minorities as a kid. In grade school I went to school with blacks and Jr high and high school with Mexicans. I was as a child and teengaer from a lower middle class background. Coming from poor living standards from Eastern Europe to upper-middle class in the United States explains some of your emphasis on how good of a swimmer you are and trying to impress others.

laineybug
September 1st, 2003, 12:57 AM
As I always told my daughter, "that may be the reason, but it isn't an excuse."

Ion Beza
September 1st, 2003, 01:01 AM
Maybe you got something here, indeed:

Originally posted by cinc310

...
Coming from poor living standards from Eastern Europe to upper-middle class in the United States explains some of your emphasis on how good of a swimmer you are and trying to impress others.
In a reflex subconscious way, for me everything is a goal you fight for, and is not the peachy slogans that Swim magazine is full of regarding its former age-group swimmers staying in shape in USMS, or its ordinary people, which both I find them to be superficial.

I developed thru trials a skeptical spirit for achievements, at odds with rampant stereotypes in Swim magazine and in this forum.

Ion Beza
September 1st, 2003, 01:02 AM
Originally posted by laineybug
As I always told my daughter, "that may be the reason, but it isn't an excuse."
I don't know about your excuse to be slower than me.

laineybug
September 1st, 2003, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by Ion Beza

I don't know about your excuse to be slower than me.

ROTF

Dominick Aielloeaver
September 1st, 2003, 01:08 AM
Originally posted by c j
Ion, what about our challenge? Your fault? Ducking me?

How bout justifying your attack on SWIM and overweights? I'm waiting eagerly for that explanation, as what you said earlier is nonsensical.

MSGrubb was right on. Absolutely right on.

And Ion, just to satisfy you, top ten (not %) in various years in three strokes. With some years on you. (Bet that'll keep ya busy!)

And, best of all, I'm not obsessed. I have a life outside the pool (which I've seen very little of this year). Hell, my kids don't even know what an individual sport is.

You're WAY out there . . . further than I thought after seeing your latest.

Ion Beza
September 1st, 2003, 01:14 AM
Also, speaking of ethics, I point out that since yeaterday c j is scared and is ducking the giving of his name.

Speaking with c j is speaking with a masked person.

Ion Beza
September 1st, 2003, 01:19 AM
Aiello,

.) have you read what followed what you quote?

.) did you keep up with what followed what you quote, and can you also quote what followed what you are already quoting?

aquageek
September 1st, 2003, 07:24 AM
Did anyone notice that Ion's last 27 posts all say he has only posted 450 times? Has he finally reached the max and the post counter is broken?

Ion, if we all just admit you are quite possilby the greatest swimmer alive and that you are always right, will you stop? What will it take to have a good thread uninterrupted by your harsh criticisms off the entire swimming world, including actual aquatic animals?

I'm going to the pool now for a workout. Please don't post 12 more by the time I get back. This thread had some validity a while back. You saw to it that it is just another "Ion Beza is the best" thread.

Paul Smith
September 1st, 2003, 09:28 AM
Boy, take a few days off and come back to find that Ion has managed to "spice" things up again rather quickly. Forget top 10 in swimming, Ion is #1 with no challengers at getting people worked up (must be all that time he spent in France :D

First, to Swim magazines coverage; I for one enjoy seeing a variety of articles that encompass the diversity that is Masters Swimming. Having had the pleasure of swimming with close to 50 different teams around the US the last few years the vast majority and the true "heart and soul" of our sport, are the masses that rarely compete and are there for fitness and the joy that comes through moving through the water and they warrant coverage even more so than the "elite" competitive swimmers.

If anyone wants more information on "elite" training, results, etc. etc. there's plenty of resources from the different magazines, websites, books, videos, etc. not just Swim.

As for my not swimming LC this year it has nothing to do with sponsorships (been there, done that, moved on years and years ago), rather I was enjoying my time trying to chase my wife on on our road bikes (never could catch her). Masters is one of many things I/we enjoy doing, I LOVE to race but I also find pleasure/meaning in non athletic/competitive endeavors!

Backman
September 1st, 2003, 11:54 AM
The majority of masters swimmers are in this for the fun of a group workout. There's something to be said about going to practice in numbers where you can count on lane mates for motivation and inspiration. And if one were to take a poll they might find that only a small percentage actually compete on a regular basis. Many without a swimming background may find it intimidating to say the least as they consider entering the meet atmosphere.

It's refreshing to read about personal triumphs wether or not they stack up to the achievements of the veterans. That very article may inspire someone out there to get off their duff and give it a go. There are hundreds if not thousands of former swimmers with dried up gills who have not yet heard the call back to the pool. And when they do return SWIM magazine provides a nice insight to what got them started up again and how they train. There's tons of places to read about the latest speed demons. I want to hear about the 300 pound former champion who quit smoking, drinking, & overeating, and can now swim circles around the kids.

Ion Beza
September 1st, 2003, 11:56 AM
I think that Paul is missing this:

Originally posted by Ion Beza

...
...and after re-reading the Sept./Oct. 2003 Swim magazine, I stick to it being a waste.

.) 'Making Masters Fun: Is Your Pool FUNKY?':

is a waste;

.) 'Goal-Setting':

how much more banal and generic can you get?;

.) "...I just love the pursuit of doing something right,..." in page 21:

who doesn't?

and

since when has this slogan been the profound recipe of any achievement in line with my achievements I am talking about?;

.) not one analysis in Swim magazine of a high achiever's ethics.

When people in this thread mention that when unhappy with the information in Swim magazine, I have the option to gather my information elsewhere, I point out to them that when posting frequently in this forum, I do display knowledge of information that I gather from other sources -information that Swim magazine doesn't afford-.
...

Take 'Goal Setting' in page 18 for example:

that article is banal and generic like I said, and can be re-cycled by the author for a professional fee in any sports rag (in triathlon, in baseball, in football, in running or biking) like if it was tailored to the magazine's subjects just by changing some key words, and can be re-cycled again in Swim magazine every seven months because I trust that people here inebriated with such profound slogans as "That might be the reason, but it isn't an excuse." won't even notice it, and when this is pointed out then they would start the next profound slogan, the 'Get a life.' one.

Brief, whatever Swim magazine chooses to write about, there is not much quality in its content.

laineybug
September 1st, 2003, 12:35 PM
Ion I was trying to be nice when I posted that. I actually say it to my clients, who, by the way, are CHILDREN trying to excuse their poor behavior. I hold every intelligent person accountable for their behavior. There may be reasons why they act the way they do, but there are no excuses. You are an adult who is responsible for his behavior. You have been put on notice many times on this board that your behavior is borish to say the least. You are no longer somewhere, where you have to fight for everything. Now it is up to you to change. I wish you luck in that endevor, but I have my doubts about your ability to change without professional help. You do truely have so much to offer, but it is all going to waste because of your attitude and behavior. What I am saying, Ion, despite accomplishments that make you appear to be successful, you are in fact a failure in life. If given a choice between modeling myself after an overweight person who recognizes his/her problem and chooses to do something about it; or modeling myself after you, I wouldn't choose you as a role model.

Now that being said, you may rant against me (as I know you will because you can not accept the truth) all you want.

Ion Beza
September 1st, 2003, 01:46 PM
More of the same in your post, Elaine:

you are entangled in your local culture's cliches.

Step up to the contents of my posts, like for example to the content of my post preceding this one:

you will break from cliches, by doing it.

c j
September 1st, 2003, 02:13 PM
Thanks to Paul for being a voice of reason, as usual.

Long ago I learned there are positive ions and negative ions...

Ion, Laineybug is really onto something, and you'd be smart to not look the other way. That's the best advice you'll ever get, and free. Quite a deal.

I'm really trying to find common ground with you, Ion. If only to repair the tone I'm afraid I created a couple of days ago . . .

I really can see your point about varying degrees of substance in SWIM's articles. Some are meatier than others. I'm with you in that I'm much more interested in reading about the science of our sport, repeats that Phelps could hold this year, or sets used by Specht to taper.

However, the "fluff" is useful too. Perhaps not for us, but for the majority of USMS members (recall, that same majority who have no interest in competition and times). Those are the kind of topics and writing that catch the eye of the fitness swimmer who needs a different kind of motivation.

Oh well. So many have tried to make this point to no avail. I feel I'm rambling needlessly, and will now shut up.

Paul Smith
September 1st, 2003, 02:42 PM
The vast majority of people who get up and got to a pool to swim are not associated with USMS, I'd like to see more of them come on board. The ones I've spoken with have no interest in competing, but they would most likely benefit from coaching and the "social" side of what USMS has to offer.

Maybe this involvement lead to trying meet sometime or possibly they volunteer to help run our meets, maybe they become more committed to fitness, weight lose, overcoming Parkinsons, or just making friends. If we are going to attract and keep these folks then we need to include role models for them and that isn't from articles about so called "elite" masters swimmers.

Those of us who fall into this "elite" category (defined by records, top 10, participation at meets, pushing for NQTs :D , etc), most likely are driven much more by internal motivation than relying on Swim magazine (no offense Phil & Bill).

It saddens me to think that anyone would seek to elevate their own self esteem by looking down on, judging, comparing to others, or creating "standards" of measurment to their unique position in life in order to stand out.

A couple of thoughts that motivate me:
"Carpe Diem"
"First do no harm"
"Winning isn't everything, a desire to is"

gull
September 1st, 2003, 02:52 PM
I think that Ion is looking for something that SWIM does not provide, specifically a focus on the more "serious" Masters swimmer (ie those who train to compete). By necessity the articles cover a wide range of topics to appeal to the varied backgrounds and interests of all USMS members, the majority of whom apparently don't compete. As I said in an earlier post, there are many issues that are unique to the older swimmer; we are different physiologically from our younger counterparts, and have more health problems. We injure more easily and heal more slowly. We have less time to train and more outside commitments. There are fundamental questions like how often to train, how much yardage is "enough," how to avoid injury and where to turn when we are injured. Much of the information out there is written for younger swimmers and may not be relevant or appropriate for Masters. This is not meant as a criticism of SWIM, but an observation. Probably a publication like that would not attract enough of a following.

c j
September 1st, 2003, 04:53 PM
Thanks to Paul for being a voice of reason, as usual.

Long ago I learned there are positive ions and negative ions...

Ion, Laineybug is really onto something, and you'd be smart to not look the other way. That's the best advice you'll ever get, and free. Quite a deal.

I'm really trying to find common ground with you, Ion. If only to repair the tone I'm afraid I created a couple of days ago . . .

I really can see your point about varying degrees of substance in SWIM's articles. Some are meatier than others. I'm with you in that I'm much more interested in reading about the science of our sport, repeats that Phelps could hold this year, or sets used by Specht to taper.

However, the "fluff" is useful too. Perhaps not for us, but for the majority of USMS members (recall, that same majority who have no interest in competition and times). Those are the kind of topics and writing that catch the eye of the fitness swimmer who needs a different kind of motivation.

Oh well. So many have tried to make this point to no avail. I feel I'm rambling needlessly, and will now shut up.

Ion Beza
September 1st, 2003, 08:31 PM
Originally posted by c j

...
Ion, Laineybug is really onto something, and you'd be smart to not look the other way. That's the best advice you'll ever get, and free. Quite a deal.
...

She is onto zero vision to what I do:

.) in swimming, who has done what I do as a late bloomer and is training to improve more? Laineybug, with her shortcomings?

.) in languages, who speaks Romanian, French, English and German, and is improving in German? Laineybug, with her shortcomings?

.) in U.S., who is selected to U.S. based on skills in mathematics and Engineering that are in demand in U.S. but not found in local Laineybugs? Laineybug?

What her posts show, is that it's easy to be born somewhere and be almost stale within the local stereotypes of the place.

"C'est des boeufs.", that's what a Frenchman here, was telling me recently.

I guess, is a little more competitive at the standards at which people like me are brought in to live.

Challenge that I created and that I welcome for my goals.

Hence, a similar standard of achievement by Swim magazine could be a match:

like in being knowledgeable about late bloomers who are competitive amongst lifelong racers.

But there is no match:

Swim magazine has not many clues, and is mostly a waste.

As I stated in page two of this thread, Swim magazine doesn't bother my achieving because my achieving never depended on the Swim magazine, but it depended and it does depend on goals that I had prior to knowing that Swim magazine does exist.

I discuss the lack of expertise in adult swimming by Swim magazine, because it is the subject at hand in this thread.

Craig (i.e.: gull80) has many valid points about adult swimming, in his last two posts.

c j
September 1st, 2003, 09:32 PM
Ion, I've tried to come down a couple of notches and reason with you. I've tried to find common ground. I've admitted my own fault and invited intellegent discussion.

Ion, I'm beginning to think you're a hoax. No one I've ever met is as out of touch as you. Are you really a normal person who poses as this antagonistic pest?

Do you have any real friends? Social life? Relationships with your teammates, or more importantly, someone OUTSIDE of swimming and work? Have you ever admitted any fault, or that someone else just might have a valid point of view? Has anyone sat and had a beer with you and actually agreed with any of your extreme views? Who? Or do they just dismiss you at workouts and meets as some wierdo? [And you know EXACTLY who I'm talking about]?

Laineybug is not speaking local stereotypes (whatever that means), but is giving the best professional advice.

And Ion, you're NOT really competitive. Not close. I hope you get there someday, and with your spunk, you might. I'm not saying this to "one up" you or compare. It's just that you make some bold statements for someone in the middle of the pack. Even as much as late bloomers go, I've trained with a few triathletes in three cities who could top your 2:30 200M on a good day (one is a female), and they took up swimming seriously in their 30s. My point is that you are not qualified to make the judgments you are making.

MetroSwim
September 1st, 2003, 09:34 PM
.) in languages, who speaks Romanian, French, English and German, and is improving in German?

If that's how you see it, how about a little effort towards improving in English?


But is not.

Sorry folks, I had to do more than just say it out loud while reading his latest post...

Ion Beza
September 1st, 2003, 09:37 PM
Convince me:

you try to speak English as this being your main and only one language, right Barky?

Ion Beza
September 1st, 2003, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by c j

...
Ion, I'm beginning to think you're a hoax.
...

You mean you are going to introduce your name soon in order for me to verify you?

It's overdue, regarding who is a hoax.

cinc3100
September 1st, 2003, 10:15 PM
This thread has gotten out of control. The powers that be should closed it off. Anyway, Ion in California you should have learned Spanish, it helps better there than either French or German.

cinc3100
September 1st, 2003, 10:22 PM
I wanted to say I liked articles about overweight women that are middle aged that are about 10 to 15 years older than me. I should have never mention Ion name in the first place.

cinc3100
September 1st, 2003, 10:29 PM
CJ, unlike Ion I had a very humbing experiance as a kid swimming on a team with Shirley Babashoff. A person like that reminds you on how average you really are when they could beat you from 10 seconds plus in any stroke in a 100 meter swim.

cinc3100
September 2nd, 2003, 12:08 AM
Well, Ion you should read the teenage Cesar from Santa Ana California talking about his school having a low priority on swimming and he wanted to improved his breaststroke. In your city, there are school'sjust like Cesar's that placed a low priority on swimming. Your lucky Ion you don't live in those blue collar neighborhoods. You have acess to swimming as much as you like.

gull
September 2nd, 2003, 07:18 AM
Perhaps I'll begin a new thread focussing on the content of SWIM magazine. Oh, I forgot, that was the intent of this thread.

Ion Beza
September 2nd, 2003, 07:37 AM
These two focus on the content of Swim Magazine:

Originally posted by Ion Beza

...
...and after re-reading the Sept./Oct. 2003 Swim magazine, I stick to it being a waste.

.) 'Making Masters Fun: Is Your Pool FUNKY?':

is a waste;

.) 'Goal-Setting':

how much more banal and generic can you get?;

.) "...I just love the pursuit of doing something right,..." in page 21:

who doesn't?

and

since when has this slogan been the profound recipe of any achievement in line with my achievements I am talking about?;

.) not one analysis in Swim magazine of a high achiever's ethics.

When people in this thread mention that when unhappy with the information in Swim magazine, I have the option to gather my information elsewhere, I point out to them that when posting frequently in this forum, I do display knowledge of information that I gather from other sources -information that Swim magazine doesn't afford-.
...

and

Originally posted by gull80
I think that Ion is looking for something that SWIM does not provide, specifically a focus on the more "serious" Masters swimmer (ie those who train to compete). By necessity the articles cover a wide range of topics to appeal to the varied backgrounds and interests of all USMS members, the majority of whom apparently don't compete. As I said in an earlier post, there are many issues that are unique to the older swimmer; we are different physiologically from our younger counterparts, and have more health problems. We injure more easily and heal more slowly. We have less time to train and more outside commitments. There are fundamental questions like how often to train, how much yardage is "enough," how to avoid injury and where to turn when we are injured. Much of the information out there is written for younger swimmers and may not be relevant or appropriate for Masters. This is not meant as a criticism of SWIM, but an observation. Probably a publication like that would not attract enough of a following.
We can further discuss Swim magazine, after these points having been submitted and largely established by now.

Leonard Jansen
September 2nd, 2003, 07:56 AM
" 'Excitable boy', they all said."

Backman
September 2nd, 2003, 08:25 AM
Some people are very passionate about their swimming. There was once a young man from Austria who couldn't speak a lick of English when he arrived here. But he worked hard year after year and very well could be the future governor of California. (Not sure if he dismissed any fat people along the way.) But he certainly wanted to excel, and there's nothing wrong in that.

Never should one be criticized for trying. For making fun of the fatties yes. Perhaps there will be a lesson learned from all this banter. And maybe we'll all be reading about the likes of Mr. Beza on the cover of SWIM oneday. That will indeed be quite a story.

MegSmath
September 2nd, 2003, 09:00 AM
Ion, you certainly have a right to express your opinion that you don't like the content of SWIM magazine. Where you are out of line is dismissing Rita's story simply because she is overweight. I happen to know Rita. She was a fixture at all the Kentucky meets before she moved away. And she's a delightful person. Relentlessly cheerful, positive, funny, intelligent, supportive. I never swam at a meet with her that she didn't come up to me and congratulate me on my own swimming. She has good strokes, and as she says herself is actually not a bad breaststroker. I find her story inspirational. In spite of serious health problems, she continues to make the effort to get to the pool and work out. Yes, she might do herself another favor by skipping the ice cream and cookies afterwards, but the same could be said of me (and probably a hefty -- pun intended -- percentage of USMS members).

I enjoy reading articles about the truly gifted Masters swimmers, and about stroke technique, but a steady diet of only that would bore me. I appreciate Phil and Bill's efforts to broaden the scope of the magazine, so that everyone can find something that interests them. I found the "funky pool" article to be a lot of fun, and also enjoyed getting to know Mike Collins a little better. You didn't like the article about Rita? Fine. But some of us enjoyed it very much.

Rob Copeland
September 2nd, 2003, 09:56 AM
This thread has gone in a number of directions. Most have been entertaining. It’s great we have so many people impassioned about our sport!

And a note for those among us who are looking for more "technical articles on training and conditioning, written specifically for the club coach and the self-coached swimmer, which explain in detail why some swim programs consistently turn out world class athletes". May I suggest looking into Swimming Technique Magazine?

Just as I wouldn’t expect to find Wall Street Journal type information in USA Today, I don’t expect to get highly technical articles on every page of Swim Magazine. This doesn’t make USA Today a bad newspaper or Swim a bad magazine; it just means I expect to get different news from different sources. And if you want even more technical information, there is a plethora of technical swimming books and videos on the market. Many of these are available through the Masters lending library.

Shaky
September 2nd, 2003, 10:01 AM
I didn't think this was possible. Instead of my computer crashing, it just started spitting Ion's ego out from the vents. Now I have Ion's ego all over my desk, and I don't know how to get rid of it. Ego isn't toxic, is it? I probably should wear gloves.

The worst part is that just when I think I've seen the limit of Ion's ego, it proves to be even bigger than I thought and spews out some more. I would offer to send this ego I've collected here in these plastic bags back to Ion, but somehow I think he has enough left that he won't miss it.

gull
September 2nd, 2003, 10:37 AM
The point is that SWIM magazine does not cater to those Masters swimmers primarily interested in competing. That's not to say it's a poor publication nor does it mean that there are never any relevant articles for the older competitive swimmer. Yes, such information can be found elsewhere, but again the material may not be applicable to older swimmers. How many of us can or even should train like Popov? As for Rita's story, I think it's great that she exercises regularly, but this is just one facet of a healthy lifestyle. Obesity is a serious health problem, not just an appearance issue. I found the editorial and the article about the stroke survivor far more inspirational. The type of magazine Ion is looking for, if I understand him correctly, doesn't exist.

pettijohn
September 2nd, 2003, 11:49 AM
In response to Rob Copeland's suggestion. "And a note for those among us who are looking for more "technical articles on training and conditioning, written specifically for the club coach and the self-coached swimmer, which explain in detail why some swim programs consistently turn out world class athletes". May I suggest looking into Swimming Technique Magazine?"

I have been getting swimming Technique Magazine for many years (when my Twin daughters were swimming USA. They are now 29 years old). The only problem is that many technical articles will appear in both magazines, several months apart. I have been thinking of not renewing my Swimming Technique magazine this go around. I have mentioned this duplication on several occassions.

kaelonj
September 2nd, 2003, 11:49 AM
I think I have a solution - you have to go back a few postings. Ion is looking for swim publication that will address the specific needs of a late bloomer swimmer who does not have a swim specific developed VO2, published in 4 languages (specifically Romanian, French, English and German) and written in a way that only someone holding an engineering or mathmatics degree could understand (did I miss anything ?). Ion it doesn't exist - the fact that you didn't like the magazine or articles is fine, that is your opinion, but it appears that the general swimming community did like at least some part of the magazine. The problem it appears is this 'Ion World' (thoughts or suggestions that only apply to an incredibly small amount of individuals - by this I mean, swim competitions or rankings for swimmers that had a late start in swimming or articles written about bernoulli's theorem and laminar flow or the drag coefficient of nylon vs spandex). And please give the gestapo bit a rest, if CJ wants to remain somewhat anonymous - let him.

cinc3100
September 2nd, 2003, 02:06 PM
Ion,I don't understand why you mention about be able to beat people in freestylethat are middle age women. I notice that you don't mention breaststroke, maybe we can beat you in that stroke.

bearcat
September 2nd, 2003, 03:50 PM
Is there no administrator monitoring this forum?

I participate in a number of similar discussion groups for my profession and from time to time a thread will be closed (locked) by the administrator when posts start to get personal or petty.

It's human nature to want the last word.

This discussion forum is a great asset to anyone interested in improving their swimming. Please let's keep it that way!

Ion Beza
September 2nd, 2003, 04:25 PM
I only sneak in now, but I will check in, and dissect the latest posts later on.

At first glance, it seems to me that Craig's latest take, does stand out again.

Jeff, what you are joking about regarding me, that could be one adult competitor's ethics story.

Other extraordinary adult competitor's stories are that July 27 in that La Jolla meet, I have seen Maxine Merlino age 91 racing a 1500 meter free, Rita Simonton age 85 swimming a 1500 meter free in 32 minutes (that's fast), and Barbara Dunbar doing a 1500 meter free in 19:48.

I will resume here, later on.

Stay put...

Steve Ruiter
September 2nd, 2003, 05:37 PM
This is a great thread. It tells me exactly who I should add to my "Ignore List"

ATLPSU
September 2nd, 2003, 05:50 PM
I think the solution is right under our noses! Ion needs to publish his own magazine!

"Fast Ion Swimming" - The swim magazine that addresses the needs of the late blooming mathematics-engineering hand selected immigrated svelte multi-linguistic "elite" swimmer.

Each article written by Ion, it could be published in Romanian, French, German and English. That would give Ion four magazines to read so he wouldn't need to waste his time reading the fluff in SWIM Magazine. And as an added bonus to Ian, he could pick up the additional income that would alow him to unleash his potential at all future Nationals!

Shaky
September 2nd, 2003, 07:44 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
I will resume here, later on.

Please don't.

Backman
September 2nd, 2003, 08:10 PM
Perhaps the name of this thread should be changed?

Enjoyed the posts about Ion and his onslaught from the ordinary people.

Right now somewhere on the West Coast, Mr. Beza is cranking down another can of spinach before he handles today's onslaught. Oh the humanity. Oh the inboxes!

Time to unsubscribe to this thread. But for some strange reason I am drawn to it like scene of a fender bender.

c j
September 2nd, 2003, 10:34 PM
1st place: ATLPSU
2nd place: Shaky
3rd place: Backman

I've been rolling on the floor!
Dave Berry's got NOTHING on you guys!

cinc3100
September 2nd, 2003, 11:06 PM
Well, thanks Ion for making my posts popular. Usually it doesn't draw this much attention.

Ion Beza
September 2nd, 2003, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by kaelonj
...
...if CJ wants to remain somewhat anonymous - let him.
You know what c j wants?

To troll this forum, making baseless claims.

Let me guess:

c j is an old man, reminiscent of the previous forum where he might have posted against me under 'Anonymous', and who in this thread is a sentimental papa dreaming of what life might have been if his claims were true.

Ion Beza
September 2nd, 2003, 11:47 PM
I browsed thru today's posts in the afternoon while at work, and hours later when driving home, this wriggled from what my subconscious recorded, to my attention.

At home, I checked it again:

Originally posted by Backman
Some people are very passionate about their swimming. There was once a young man from Austria who couldn't speak a lick of English when he arrived here. But he worked hard year after year and very well could be the future governor of California. (Not sure if he dismissed any fat people along the way.) But he certainly wanted to excel, and there's nothing wrong in that.

Never should one be criticized for trying. For making fun of the fatties yes. Perhaps there will be a lesson learned from all this banter. And maybe we'll all be reading about the likes of Mr. Beza on the cover of SWIM oneday. That will indeed be quite a story.
and I also found this:

Originally posted by Backman
Perhaps the name of this thread should be changed?

Enjoyed the posts about Ion and his onslaught from the ordinary people.

Right now somewhere on the West Coast, Mr. Beza is cranking down another can of spinach before he handles today's onslaught. Oh the humanity. Oh the inboxes!

Time to unsubscribe to this thread. But for some strange reason I am drawn to it like scene of a fender bender.
I am lucky that Bruce brings sparks to my crusade against the complacent dulls.

Ion Beza
September 3rd, 2003, 12:19 AM
This post from August 31st.:

Originally posted by Ion Beza

...
.) what about who Fritz Lehman (new world record holder in 100 meter back, in men 45 to 49), Bill Specht, Tom McCabe, Andreas Seibt, Barbara Dunbar, Paul Smith, Jim Thornton, Rich Abrahams are?
I know them better than Swim magazine does, with the exception of Rich maybe;
I re-peat: I know them better than Swim magazine does;

how are they training (I know better than Swim magazine about how Tom McCabe -a tough sprinter- tapers, he wrote me a technical e-mail on this, and gee, it doesn't look like a Swim magazine fluffy article), how are they living and working, how are their families and how is their support, is that worth ignoring by Swim magazine, too?

it was last summer, in July, before the 2002 Long Course Nationals, that in a thread in this forum it appeared that a bigger emphasis on performances by adults and supporting this with TV exposure of the Masters Nationals, and with an in-depth interest in performers' lifes by Swim magazine -including sponsorships-, is needed;
...

is addressed by Craig here:

Originally posted by gull80
The point is that SWIM magazine does not cater to those Masters swimmers primarily interested in competing. That's not to say it's a poor publication nor does it mean that there are never any relevant articles for the older competitive swimmer. Yes, such information can be found elsewhere, but again the material may not be applicable to older swimmers.
...
The type of magazine Ion is looking for, if I understand him correctly, doesn't exist.

I agree that Swim magazine does not cater to those Masters swimmers primarily interested in competing, but pretends hard to do it.

Cross information from Swimming World and Swimming Technique (or like Margot here points out, re-cycled information from Swimming Technique into the Swim magazine) is to be distilled by the adult swimmer alone, because there is no sincere magazine about the Masters swimmers primarily interested in competing, including about starters in swimming well into adulthood who improve.

Tom Ellison
September 3rd, 2003, 12:45 AM
I had my right artificial hip replaced last Monday the 25th of Aug. here at Jewish Hospital in Louisville, KY. I am currently recovering at the Frazier Rehabilitation facility on the Jewish Hospital campus. Although I am in serious pain and under the influence of pain medications, I could not let Ion’s writings go past without comment.

Early today, I received a phone call from a USMS friend telling me of this thread, which prompted me to ask one of my co-workers to bring my lap top computer to the hospital. After reading these posts I found myself dealing with a multitude of thoughts and emotions. Some of the posts have been heart felt because I witnessed real, sincere decency within the people attempting to give Ion positive feedback and help guide him and understand the impact his writings has upon the readers of these posts.

I also felt anger, shame, hostility, pity, humor and lastly, indignation from his writings. This past year I learned some very painful and life changing lessons that will guide me in my response.

I am MANY of the things or types Masters Swimmers we speak of in this post. In years past I swam for both fitness and competition. I am a proud man in that I know that I have been richly blessed to have swam 7 TOP TEN USMS times and, won three or four serious offshore ocean races. Yet, the pride that I speak of here has nothing to do with swimming TOP TEN TIMES or winning ocean races. It has to do with pride found in walking into an Arena I chose to walk into and compete within, with many remarkable and inspiring people/swimmers. People/swimmers who took pride in uplifting the over weight swimmers who came to our pool during the nameless morning workouts over the years, who we all knew were now taking that grand step to getting in shape and gaining better control of their bodies. We embraced them and encouraged them because we all knew we were witnessing the essence of USMS because these people were using OUR Arena to better their lives which ultimately betters the lives of their children and loved ones.

I have met USMS swimmers that brought tears to my eyes just being themselves and allowing me to witness greatness up close and personal. Men like Graham Johnston who looked at me with total peace on his face while riding out to Alcatraz Island to swim the Alcatraz Sharkfest Swim in 97. Here before me sat a man who had devoted his entire life to swimming and in his mid 60’s in cold water demonstrated no fear or outward nervousness. Yet, I knew Graham understood the brutal shock we were about to get as we jumped off the Ferry Boat at Alcatraz Island into very cold water. His peace and lack of outward fear demonstrated courage and leadership because he knew many of the swimmers from North Texas who were on that Ferry Boat had never felt the shock they were about to receive.

I remember meeting the great Dorothy Donnlley at a SCY Nationals during the last years of her life. We talked about artificial hips and swimming and how USMS swimming gave us an opportunity to keep fit around some very remarkable people. I was in awe of her gentle manner and vivid understanding of our sport and the positive impact it has on so many families and lives.
I remember writing a man who beat the tar out of me during my first National event in Fort Lauderdale in 95. I watched him swim a very, very fast mile and asked him later in the day what his swimming history was. He took his time and explained his training regiment to me and then asked me about myself. He warmed my heart when he told me he had watched MY MILE because he saw my physical limitations with my right back side missing and wanted to see how I did. Here was a great USMS that watched some half assed guy from Texas swim the mile, and he had never met me before that day.

I have read articles of supreme inspiration in SWIM Magazine. And yes, I have read a few articles I thought were dorky or out of place. But, boring for me may have been another Masters Swimmers area of interest and inspiration. Also, let us keep in mind how difficult it must be for the editors of Swim Magazine to publish a periodical that serves the interests of such a diverse group of people/swimmers who were born anywhere from the early 1900’s to the early 1980’. Heck, I may not agree with all the things I read, but I sure as heck am impressed and thankful for a great magazine.

Let us read our foundation of premise for USMS:

“United States Masters Swimming (USMS) is an organization of sportswomen and sportsmen founded in 1970 and dedicated to the premise that the lives of participants will be enhanced through aquatic physical conditioning. USMS supports and encourages competitions among its members”

To enhance does not mean to tear down and undermine the USMS organization to further our own selfish interests or agendas, or provide us with a venue to feed our egos. We are a great organization comprised by many diverse people/swimmers with many different and divergent thoughts and beliefs. I think it is time we stop hammering on the foundations of our sport to further our misguided need or want of adoration or attention. Be positive Ion, and you will find the USMS organization that thousands of us have come to love and support.

I know the decency, kindness and caring within our sport, first hand, up front and personal. Last year when I hovered at the very brink of destruction you (Ion) along with hundreds of USMS swimmers I never met and may never meet came to my side in private e-mails, cards and letters of Prayer, encouragement and uplifting. Go back and visit those thoughts and feelings for they are the thoughts and feelings that will make you (Ion) as great as United States Maters Swimming.

I remember a Dillon Thomas writing that once said, “One mans ceiling was another mans floor.” That is true here as well….for we each seek and strive for different goals, wants, needs and successes. Their is greatness all around you ION, all you have to do to see, feel and witness it, is read the kind posts within this thread that are directed and written to help you see a light that many of us realize you do not see!

Lastly,please forgive my ramblings, I blame it 100% ON THE MEDICATION….
:)

aquageek
September 3rd, 2003, 04:30 AM
Why is Ion still allowed to post in this forum? Someone started a tongue in cheek poll question about Ion a few weeks back and it was removed from this forum after 4 replies. Yet, we have suffered through dozens of Ion replies on this thread for two weeks now. none of which are on-topic.

Backman
September 3rd, 2003, 06:47 AM
"In the end, veracity and rectitude will always triumph."

And we all have the right to free speech. Whether or not the content has any merit to it does not matter. Did you ever consider perhaps that SWIM might be a little fluffy at times? Next month's features just may include an article like....Rubber Duckies. Can't be in the water without them? Here's the answer to keeping those little buzzards glued to your suit during those long sets.


And best wishes to Tom. With the marvel of today's medical science that new hip may be considered a secret weapon when wet.

gull
September 3rd, 2003, 08:23 AM
Critiquing the content of SWIM should not be interpreted as an attack on USMS as an organization, nor as a sign of disrespect toward its members. The magazine does however proclaim itself "the world's foremost authority on adult swimming." I have read it for many years, usually find something of interest, and will continue to do so. But it is what it is.

Tom Ellison
September 3rd, 2003, 10:51 AM
Craig Wrote:
“Critiquing the content of SWIM should not be interpreted as an attack on USMS as an organization, nor as a sign of disrespect toward its members. The magazine does however proclaim itself "the world's foremost authority on adult swimming." I have read it for many years, usually find something of interest, and will continue to do so. But it is what it is.”
Craig, you are correct in your statement above. Having said that, my post was directed toward Ion’s attack on the moral character of the editors of SWIM Magazine and his general caustic remarks regarding everything from A to Z and everywhere in between within these posts.

I attempted to keep clear of attacking Ion. I believe he is very bright, determined and fierce in the pursuit of his goals. I admire his commitment to fitness and the tremendous courage he exhibited in getting to this country. I admire his determination and grit by having to sleep in his car in Canada when he was so poor he could not afford proper housing while he pursued his immigration to the United States. I have attempted to look for the good and positive things that Ion brings to any table he chooses to sit at. Ion has many admirable character traits and positive things that could benefit many within USMS. I simply attempted to get Ion to see the forest through the trees by looking more toward the positive aspects of our sport and by paying closer attention to his interaction with his fellow swimmers.

Gosh, many posts have attempted to reach out in a kind, decent manner to help him understand that he does not need to wander about in the field of fire to make his point or further his thoughts process. In short, the hostility and perceived injustices he writes about do not exist and it causes him problems in his interaction with others by fueling a fire that simply is not burning.

Mark in MD
September 3rd, 2003, 11:29 AM
No and's, if's or but's about it. Bravo, Tom! Bravo! No apologies needed for "ramblings" ... they are hardly that. Your commentary is quite "on the mark."

aquageek
September 3rd, 2003, 11:38 AM
I know a lot of people who have had trying life experiences. This is not an excuse nor a reason to be rude, ugly and arrogant. If you give someone an excuse to act poorly, they most certainly will. While Ion's background may be the most troubling and his rise to stardom the most uplifting story ever told, it certainly is not worthy of using as any reason for his behavior.

I'm sick of it. Others are sick of it. This thread has been reduced to yet another Ion oriented thread, devoid of any meaningful swimming information.

kaelonj
September 3rd, 2003, 11:39 AM
Ion,

Your personal story might have made a good piece in the SWIM magazine except for a few things. First off almost everyone now knows your personal story (so nothing new there - would just be a rehash of old news). Secondly your demeanor has probably alienated a lot of readers (my opinion - could be wrong) - it appears most people like to read about someone who has overcome adversity with some humility (once again my opinion). Tom has given some very sound advice - and true it is easier to tear down than build up. Instead of critizing the content of SWIM magazine (paraphrasing : nothing useful in the content for someone who wants to be competitive) why not try and critique more (suggesting a Q/A section and have guest coaches answer questions - How much yardage should I be doing ? How long should I taper for ? How much recovery time should I have between hard/big meets ? How many meets should I swim in a year ? or even more specific profiles about swimmers, the 'fluff is okay but more in depth of what are your favorite sets, what's your favorite pre-race meal, what type of music do you like, best race, proudest achievement, etc - ). Both send the same message (Would like to see some different content in the magazine), the only difference is one is negative and destructive while the other is somewhat positive and constructive and has less of a chance of making people defensive.

lefty
September 3rd, 2003, 01:26 PM
Just a quick word to those who would like to see ION banned from these forums: Free expression should remain just that. If you find his digs irritating, then don't respond.

Also, personal attacks say more about the person who posted them than the individual to whom they were directed.

Ion Beza
September 3rd, 2003, 02:10 PM
Because of this:

Originally posted by gull80

...
The magazine does however proclaim itself "the world's foremost authority on adult swimming." I have read it for many years, usually find something of interest, and will continue to do so. But it is what it is.
and of this:

Originally posted by Backman

...
Next month's features just may include an article like....Rubber Duckies. Can't be in the water without them?
...

let me suggest improvements in its content dealing with concerns about:

1.) starting swimming well into adulthood; what are the physiological challenges that an already developed body faces when adjusting to the demands of swimming? can a late bloomer compete with lifelong racers? what is the swimming VO2Max and how much a swimmer who starts as an adult can still tweak with it?

2.) some adults do record times that are beating their age-group times when they were training as teenagers, and some adults are coming close to them; how do they train now, compared with how did they train then? interview with Jim Clemmons, Laura Val, Jim Thornton, Fritz Lehman, Rich Abrahams, Jim McConica and others;

3.) what is a professional-like taper for big competitions? interview with top sprinter Tom McCabe;

4.) Masters incentives for participating in competitive work outs and meets; how to elicit dedication and passion to improve?

5.) showing the USMS Nationals on TV and attracting audiences;

6.) sponsorships to USMS swimmers; how to do it?

7.) what are the parameters of a healthy life?

8.) the Olympians are training this much; comparing it with adult training in USMS; what are the differences?

9.) swimming injuries: prevention and treatment; does breaststroke and pulling with paddles make injury prone?

10.) building a support group; how to do it? how to balance a full time work, a family having other interests, aging and a part time hobby for a healthy exercise;

11.) profile of the USMS swimmer of the month, dedicated to improving oneself;

12.) what's out there? countries, languages and cultural ideas from outside of the U.S.;

I wrote this list off the top of my head, it should beat 'unique' statements like "...I just like the pursuit of doing something right...", and people are welcome to add and change it, in order to ameliorate it.

laineybug
September 3rd, 2003, 02:52 PM
Bravo Ion, Excellent suggestions for topics.

Laineybug

PS: I like the idea about whats outside US borders. I'm sure there are a lot of well traveled individuals in USMS, or folks like myself who have lived outside of the US, that could share their swimming experiences from around the world.

Gareth Eckley
September 3rd, 2003, 03:25 PM
Those are good suggestions from ION.

Perhaps if these suggestions had been posted earlier, before the critical comment then the discussion would have been better.

These points could trigger a good debate, unfortunately I feel that too many have been too upset by now, for that to happen. Too bad !

cinc3100
September 3rd, 2003, 03:38 PM
Ion, most of the people you mention were elite as teenagers or in their early 20's and started doing masters swmming for at least 20 to 30 years. Jim Thorton is the exception, he didn't make nationals as a teenager or in his early 20's. So, an article on him doing best times in his early 50's would be interesting for some in the general public who are not elite. Not swimming the times of your youth doesn't disqualify you from sucess in masters. I'm doing just a little less yardage than I did during the first 2 and half years that I swam novice as a kid before I started doing 5,000 plus workouts a day. So, my progress isn't that bad. I need to learn to spilt or hold it together better in the 200 meter. 50 and 100 meter breaststroke swims are not that bad but problems in the 200 meter, should be under 3:50.

Backman
September 3rd, 2003, 04:01 PM
That post (Ion's) was so on the mark. Hopefully it will turn this thread on a course towards a more positive ending.

And due respect should go to Ion who doesn't allow personal attacks to weaken his convictions, even if he did initially put himself in the line of fire. My guess is that the tone of these posts can be misconstrued.

As someone very simply put it, take what you like and leave the rest. This forum has much to offer from its members new and old. And this includes those deemed fanatics too!

Ion Beza
September 3rd, 2003, 04:06 PM
Cynthia,

what is maybe missing in your case and it is on my list, is a support group in your training and racing.

If I understand well, right now you are self motivating to train and race (including by using the Internet for information, like I am also doing), and I think that in Tucson there is a very good racer and USMS coach, Jim Stites, that I would seek if I were there.

I agree with you that "Not swimming the times of your youth doesn't disqualify you from success in Masters.":

swimming the times of your youth is a bonus -nature permitting-, but what should matter toward success in Masters is the spirit of a quest for good.

Bert Bergen
September 3rd, 2003, 04:56 PM
Before we get too congratulatory...

Though Ion did bring up some great topics for SWIM to consider, there are these:
-Extensive profiles on training, techniques, and tapers have been presented by SWIM in the last two years on Rich Abrahams and Jim McConica and others. All you need to do is look for them.
-SWIM Magazine is a periodical that has to tailor its offerings to nearly 40,000 registered masters swimmers and cannot be solely a swimming "technique" manual. If that is what you need, that is what Swimming Technique Magazine is for.
-These are great ideas, though. The problem is you aren't necessarily addressing them to the right audience. Contact SWIM or SWIMMING TECHNIQUE directly if you want to encourage changes.
-It shouldn't matter what the "lifelong racers" and Olympians are doing if you consider your efforts as a "late starter" more impressive and far different to train and prepare for. Great to see this and admire others efforts, but we are not them...
-"Can a late bloomer compete with lifelong racers?" This supposed "curse" of not starting swimming until you was 28, is tired. You can swim with anyone you want but remember: compete, train, and enjoy Masters for YOURSELF first! Someday, you may be a good swimmer, but I think, Ion that you spend too much time both looking at the lane next to you as well as for the next big "magic potion" that will get you around whatever corner you are trying to navigate. We are getting older--not everyone can get faster!
-Be nice. We are good people, here for common goals. Tearing down, dismissing, and considering only your own opinions as the best possible explanation makes you seem like an isolated person, whether you believe this or not. We all have value.

Ion Beza
September 3rd, 2003, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by Bert Bergen

...
-Extensive profiles on training, techniques, and tapers have been presented by SWIM in the last two years on Rich Abrahams and Jim McConica and others. All you need to do is look for them.
...

One article had been written about Jim and one article had been written about Rich in the past two years, but "-Extensive profiles..." had not been written.

I haven't seen Fritz Lehman, Tom McCabe, Andreas Seibt and others in Swim magazine, and regarding Rich Abrahams and Jim McConica, they evolve a lot and they have a lot to inquire about and to share with interested people since the last article on them.

Originally posted by Bert Bergen

...
-These are great ideas, though. The problem is you aren't necessarily addressing them to the right audience. Contact SWIM or SWIMMING TECHNIQUE directly if you want to encourage changes.
...

August 2002, Bill Volckening and myself we spoke about an article, he promised to do it and took pictures of me.

He broke his promise, without my permission:

never heard of his promise, again.

Originally posted by Bert Bergen

...
-It shouldn't matter what the "lifelong racers" and Olympians are doing if you consider your efforts as a "late starter" more impressive and far different to train and prepare for. Great to see this and admire others efforts, but we are not them...
...

How do you know this?

Knowledge is information, and effort with inspiration is based on trying out different types of knowledge.

Originally posted by Bert Bergen

...
-"Can a late bloomer compete with lifelong racers?" This supposed "curse" of not starting swimming until you was 28, is tired.
...

It is tired to you.

Thousands of late starters in swimming are potentially new USMS racers:

USMS is not just for the former age-group swimmer.

kaelonj
September 3rd, 2003, 06:04 PM
Ion,

In regards to your potential swim article by Bill and a the broken promise. I am not privy of what was said - you had mentioned that after speaking with Bill nothing more was said, so the question I have to ask is did you ever try to contact Bill to find out whatever happened (its not to hard considering he is listed), there my be a good reason or a million reasons why the article never came to fruitation. So rather than finding out what happened you attack one's character in a public forum like this (twice now) which is pretty rude, especially when you don't know the facts (or maybe you do and just wish not to share them with us). One again this shows how easy it is criticize and be negative than be constructive and try to be part of the solution.

Ion Beza
September 3rd, 2003, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by kaelonj
Ion,
...
...there my be a good reason or a million reasons why the article never came to fruitation.
...

Making a promise, that's owing the promise to the recipient of the promise.

One can get out of the promise for whatever reason, by asking the recipient to be let out.

I was never asked by Bill Volckening to let him out of his promise.

Just ignored.

kaelonj
September 3rd, 2003, 06:43 PM
Ion,

Did it ever occur to you that maybe the article was dropped because of someone above Bill on the magazine staff - like the CEO, Senior Editor, Editor in Chief or Publisher or any number of reasons that Bill did not have specific control over. Instead of finding out, you would rather attack him personally and discredit his character, that truely shows bad form. if you wish the last word, post away, I will not waste any more time responding to your character assasination of Bill - and that's a promise.

Ion Beza
September 3rd, 2003, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza

...
One can get out of the promise for whatever reason, by asking the recipient to be let out.
...

c j
September 3rd, 2003, 09:07 PM
Ion, I like your list post. That's the way to handle your point, and I wish it was up last week. Thanks for showing us some promise.
-c j

cinc3100
September 3rd, 2003, 11:42 PM
Ion, there are many people out there and decisions are chosen about what to include. Many of us have other interests that would be interesting or hobbies. Matt Shirley like Miltary history. I have interest in different periods of time and know more than the average person about the late Republic of Rome. Some people like to play golf or sew.

Peter Cruise
September 4th, 2003, 12:33 AM
Oh my goodness...I actually beavered away on a very earnest addition to this thread, but my service provider crashed & washed it all away! C J ? Reverse the initials & look in California is my guess & no I wouldn't race him in freestyle.
I have known people from Ion's original neck-of-the-woods, & yes, they talk like he posts & I learned to understand that, but they also learned to respect my sensibilities as well- so we became friends. Could that be possible here? As I see it, it would take a little more effort on Ion's part.
As to relative performance issues- I swam masters on an elite level (as a bachelor), on an average-to-fast level (married with kids) & now as injured indefinitely & all the way through realized that there were 12 year olds who could kick my ass. The people who I've met- that's what I'll carry through to my dying days, not my times or placements. Life can be short for all of us my friends; recognize that, decide what's important & hold it tightly.

c j
September 4th, 2003, 06:12 AM
Ion, I like your list post. That's the way to handle your point, and I wish it was up last week. Thanks for showing us some promise.
-c j

laineybug
September 4th, 2003, 09:10 AM
Having lived in several other countries I believe Peter's point is a valid one and may be the source of some of the problems we (the other posters) are having with him. Ion may also be working in an environment where strong debate and attacks on one's position are the norm. Until I realized that the 'attacks' were not truely personal, but part of intellectual debate that serves to train free thinking and to break through long standing barriers to progress, I had a hard time adjusting to life in graduate school.
However, at the risk of using a tired trite phrase... when in Rome... Ion would do well to heed that. The ability to adapt one's behavior, when and where it needs to be, to meet the demands of the environmemt is the mark of a well functioning individual.

I would also like to apologize to this board and Ion for posting several harsh messages. I always strive to say what I mean, but to say it in a way that is neither sugar coated nor mean. However, at times, the cold hard truth, stated bluntly, is the only way to get through.

Shaky
September 4th, 2003, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
August 2002, Bill Volckening and myself we spoke about an article, he promised to do it and took pictures of me.

He broke his promise, without my permission:

never heard of his promise, again.


Is that what this is all about? Ion feels jilted by the magazine, so he took a good part of seven pages on this forum to trash it?

That sounds a lot like sour gr--

sa(*^DAS

oi**+#@

Shaky
September 4th, 2003, 10:05 AM
Dang! Ion's ego crashed my computer again, right in the middle of a post.

aquageek
September 4th, 2003, 11:02 AM
For all of you that feel compelled at one point to let Ion know what a jerk he is being to you and then in your next post fall all over yourself apologizing, you are wasting your time. Take a look at previous threads on this forum that go over about 5 pages. Every single one starts as a legit topic and quicly turns into another Ion related thread, where he criticizes and mocks others and then proceeds to tell his life story again and again and again.

This thread started as a good natured way to compliment SWIM magazine and is now a farsical look into Ion again.

Tom Ellison
September 4th, 2003, 11:44 AM
Aquageek, I agree with your post in many areas and you make some excellent points. Having said that, let me continue to foster the kinder more gentle approach I took in my earlier posts to Ion. Ion is what he is always going to be and regardless of what we say or do, he is what he is.

The bottom line to my posts was an attempt to point out to Ion that he has very positive character traits and a history of success in many areas of his life, and he should build upon those positive things in his life rather then chase and/or set fires that do not exist or should not exist.

I noticed after reading his posts closely, that he becomes combative, rude and attacks others and gets off on his tangents when he feels cornered or ridiculed. Clearly he does not understand sarcasm and reacts vehemently to that type input. He consistently demonstrates a need to be right. Historically he has demonstrated a continued desire to be recognized and understood. Gosh, the reason for this behavior or actions is way above my pay grade. But, what I attempted to accomplish in my recent posts was to point out that IF I COULD SEE the very positive side to Ion, then many, many other USMS could as well, and perhaps his approach should change from a combative one to a much more positive one. Basic 101 “Cause & Effect.”

I hope he continues to respond and post in a positive manner that does not draw continued attention to HIM. I could be all wet here…so take what I write knowing full and well that I am not a professional counselor or physiologist. I realized something was off track or some part of the equation was missing when he referred to Matt Biondi as a flash in the pan, then had no clue as to what he had said and the way it was received.

WE ALL HAVE OUR +'s & -'s....and no one is perfect...and if I was being received in the manner he is....I would welcome decent, positive feedback and insight.

Tom Ellison
September 4th, 2003, 11:51 AM
Aquageek, I agree with your post in many areas and you make some excellent points. Having said that, let me continue to foster the kinder more gentle approach I took in my earlier posts to Ion. Ion is what he is always going to be and regardless of what we say or do, he is what he is.

The bottom line to my posts was an attempt to point out to Ion that he has very positive character traits and a history of success in many areas of his life, and he should build upon those positive things in his life rather then chase and/or set fires that do not exist or should not exist.

I noticed after reading his posts closely, that he becomes combative, rude and attacks others and gets off on his tangents when he feels cornered or ridiculed. Clearly he does not understand sarcasm and reacts vehemently to that type input. He consistently demonstrates a need to be right. Historically he has demonstrated a continued desire to be recognized and understood. Gosh, the reason for this behavior or actions is way above my pay grade. But, what I attempted to accomplish in my recent posts was to point out that IF I COULD SEE the very positive side to Ion, then many, many other USMS could as well, and perhaps his approach should change from a combative one to a much more positive one. Basic 101 “Cause & Effect.”

I hope he continues to respond and post in a positive manner that does not draw continued attention to HIM. I could be all wet here…so take what I write knowing full and well that I am not a professional counselor or physiologist. I realized something was off track or some part of the equation was missing when he referred to Matt Biondi as a flash in the pan, then had no clue as to what he had said and the way it was received.

WE ALL HAVE OUR +'s & -'s....and no one is perfect...and if I was being received in the manner he is....I would welcome decent, positive feedback and insight.

Catfish Woman
September 7th, 2003, 11:40 PM
:mad: I swim for a large fun team in Evanston Illinois, the Wild Catfish, a sub group of Illinois Masters. We have excellent coaches, parties and comaraderie and that shows with our 20 year winning streak at the Illinois State Championships. The coaches have to balance 9 lanes in a 25 yard pool with 6 swimmers each and make us happy, informed and tired. They do a great job. As does Swim magazine and USMS.

Ion Beza was part of our team for a brief while in the 90's. It was a nightmare. His negativity went from how dirty the water was, to how cold the showers were, not to mention the frequent attacks on his lane mates. Our pool hosts both the Illinois Boys and Girls HS State meets, it is not all that shabby. He was a nuisance to most teammates that met him. He made folks want to quit. He tried to poison our happy pool. It was time for us to encourage him to move on. We were a happy team once again.

Lose a few members or kick Ion out? He makes the posts negative and I don't want to read that anymore. Ion is a chore. Kick him off the Discussion boards. We are losing members because of him. I will not back down, I know the "freak" and what he did to my team. Many swimmers directed me here as a joke. I was not amused. I rarely post here, and have swam since college and am a USMS National Champ! Ion, lighten up or go away, this is a hobby and you make it work!:mad:

cinc3100
September 8th, 2003, 12:07 AM
I think Tom's right. Ion is so successful in some other parts of his life. He has a nice 6 figure job. He escape the poverty of Eastern Europe and he still can outswim many masters swimmers in freestyle.

Bert Bergen
September 8th, 2003, 12:33 AM
Wow. That's it. Just, wow.

cinc3100
September 8th, 2003, 12:42 AM
Well, I also think that Ion wants everyone to agree with him. Not everyone is going too. So, the best thing to do and I do it when I sometimes disagree with people on the this board on a particular subject after a few times, I go to another subject.

Shaky
September 8th, 2003, 01:54 AM
Ion's head fit in a lane with five other swimmers?

Tom Ellison
September 8th, 2003, 08:07 AM
When you guys push "Button A", your going to get "Button A" response.

laineybug
September 8th, 2003, 08:28 AM
I have been waiting for one of Ion's teammates to speak up and say, "Hey wait a minute, you all have him all wrong." It appears, as I knew it would, that, that will not be the case. As I've said before, Ion has much to offer, evidenced by his accomplishments, but it is all going to waste because of his behavior and attitude. I wish him the best.

Elaine

Backman
September 8th, 2003, 08:40 AM
Holy lane lines Alfred!

Hang on to your pull buoy because this one's going to get turbulent.

What fiendish deeds will he be up to next?

Fritz
September 8th, 2003, 09:17 AM
I'll chime in.

I do not swim with Ion but have met him and had several conversations with him at meets. I've found him to be intelligent, curious and personable. English is not his first language and at times he will use words I wouldn't but that's to be expected.

I've also spoken with others that do swim with him and coach him and they spoke highly of him. I'm sure there are those that don't care for him just as there are those that don't care for me and some of you who are on the bandwagon. As I recall, some of the very people getting on Ions case haven't always been the most popular in other threads.

The number of people that read these threads is still relatively small. The fact that nobody from his club is speaking up is meanlingless.

I agree with Tom. The button has been pushed knowing what the result will be. Maybe Ion will be bigger than some of you think and sit it out.

Ban people from the discussion boards? Give me a break.

Leonard Jansen
September 8th, 2003, 09:22 AM
One moment, please....

This is starting to look a bit like "Ion-bashing" when it seems like he has stepped back into a neutral corner and dropped his arms.

Couldn't we just forget about it?

-LBJ