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philoswimmer
November 21st, 2010, 05:50 PM
I am curious as to what others think is an appropriate amount of rest is when sprinting during workouts -- let's say for 25s, 50s, 75s, and 100s? Also, is there any advantage to doing sprints with a short amount of rest?

Regina
November 21st, 2010, 09:38 PM
The main catch to your question is the word SPRINT. Some individuals/Coaches consider 8x25/20 seconds sprints. A true sprint is an all out effort with ample time for recovery to be ready for your next all out effort. In my Coaching I basically use these intervals BUT will often rest LONGER. 25's - on the 60 (swimmer comes in between 11-15 seconds). 50's - 1:30 to 2 minutes depending on the number of repeats (swimmers who can go sub 30 to 40 seconds). 75's 0n the 3 minutes to 5 minutes depending where we are in the season. 100's depending on the season could be on the 3,5min.

tomtopo
November 21st, 2010, 11:47 PM
Here are some great articles that can help you.

http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/sampleworkouts/a/After-Exercise.htm
http://www.homeexercisecoach.com/recovery.html
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/randy3.htm

It is generally accepted around swimming camps that the work to rest interval for high intensity of maximal effort swims, ranges from 1:2 and 1:6 The more intense the swim the more recovery is required. I hope this helps. This is a great topic for swimmers. If you want to get faster, swim your fastest, rest a lot and go for quality. Good Luck, Coach T.

Spock
November 22nd, 2010, 02:19 AM
You'll find most workouts (especially typical masters workouts) not resting enough on sprint sets. Then again, you'll find most people's "sprinting" is not close to real sprinting. .

I had a masters coach tell us to do 20x25's "all out" on :30 and I watched all the people in the pool go along with it and then just go through the motions, putting out 50-70% effort. Since then, I've trained my sprint workouts alone and adapt to the group's sets (as an example, for that 20X25 set, I might do them alternating 2 easy, 1 hard)

My college coach told me, "A sprint workout done correctly is the hardest workout in the pool. A sprint workout done incorrectly is the easiest."

osterber
November 22nd, 2010, 10:12 AM
The 1:2 to 1:6 range makes a lot of sense. And within that range, you get different kinds of workouts, each of which is a form of sprint workout. The points on the range also can vary depending on physiological differences.

For example, in college, we could do sets of:

5 x 100 @ 2:00
5 x 100 @ 4:00
5 x 100 @ 6:00

Those are three different sets, and introduce three different kinds of pain.

In a masters context, even if you're someone who would do a 100 free sprint in around a minute... older (masters) bodies in my experience and observation require longer recovery than younger (high school/college) bodies, generally. So doing spring 100's on 2:00 becomes very challenging very quickly. However, something like that can still be useful in training the body to deal with high lactic conditions. I.e., even though your body will break down and crash, there can still be some benefit of swimming through those conditions.

-Rick

The Fortress
November 22nd, 2010, 10:26 AM
You'll find most workouts (especially typical masters workouts) not resting enough on sprint sets. Then again, you'll find most people's "sprinting" is not close to real sprinting. .

I had a masters coach tell us to do 20x25's "all out" on :30 and I watched all the people in the pool go along with it and then just go through the motions, putting out 50-70% effort. Since then, I've trained my sprint workouts alone and adapt to the group's sets (as an example, for that 20X25 set, I might do them alternating 2 easy, 1 hard)

My college coach told me, "A sprint workout done correctly is the hardest workout in the pool. A sprint workout done incorrectly is the easiest."

Totally agree!

I do my AFAP 25s on no interval, usually followed by a 75 easy.
I do AFAP 50s on 3:00 or more.
I'll do AFAP 100s on 8-9:00.
Last Friday, I did fast 25s, 50s and 75s and didn't pay any attention to the interval. I was extremely tired afterward.

This is for a "sprint" set or speed work. If I'm doing a lactate tolerance set, the intervals will not be so generous.

There is no such thing as "sprinting" on short rest.

tomtopo
November 22nd, 2010, 11:48 AM
The 1:2 to 1:6 range makes a lot of sense. And within that range, you get different kinds of workouts, each of which is a form of sprint workout. The points on the range also can vary depending on physiological differences.

For example, in college, we could do sets of:

5 x 100 @ 2:00
5 x 100 @ 4:00
5 x 100 @ 6:00

Those are three different sets, and introduce three different kinds of pain.

In a masters context, even if you're someone who would do a 100 free sprint in around a minute... older (masters) bodies in my experience and observation require longer recovery than younger (high school/college) bodies, generally. So doing spring 100's on 2:00 becomes very challenging very quickly. However, something like that can still be useful in training the body to deal with high lactic conditions. I.e., even though your body will break down and crash, there can still be some benefit of swimming through those conditions.

-Rick

Great example with the 100's -

I tell swimmers that unless they can reduce their 25 time the only other hope to swimming faster is splitting better but that can only go so far. Sprinting is all about strength, technique and quality 25 time drops. It's easier said than done but always a great goal and worth pursuing all season.

philoswimmer
November 22nd, 2010, 11:55 AM
Thanks, everyone! This has been very helpful, and everyone seems to agree that sprinting training requires ample rest. So, now I am wondering whether it is beneficial to do hard sets of short distances on a short interval, as long as we recognize that it isn't sprinting. And if so, what are the benefits?

knelson
November 22nd, 2010, 12:53 PM
My college coach told me, "A sprint workout done correctly is the hardest workout in the pool. A sprint workout done incorrectly is the easiest."

That's a great quote and spot on.

osterber
November 22nd, 2010, 01:55 PM
So, now I am wondering whether it is beneficial to do hard sets of short distances on a short interval, as long as we recognize that it isn't sprinting. And if so, what are the benefits?

That's basically one form of lactic threshold. It can help train your body to perform under the stress of high lactic levels. When your body hits high lactic levels, you start to shut down. This training can help you push through that situation. In a racing situation, this is what helps you get home on the last 50 of a 200, or the last 100 of a 500, or of a 1000, when your arms and legs are burning in pain.

But no, it's not sprinting.

-Rick

Rich Abrahams
November 22nd, 2010, 02:25 PM
There is no such thing as "sprinting" on short rest.

Leslie,
Try 10 X 25 on 1:00 with 15 Y/M all out breakouts and then cruise the rest of the way. It only relies on the CP-ATP energy system which is quickly replenished and even I have enough recovery time to be very explosive on all efforts. In a team setting this is a fun workout where you mix up the lanes so (in a 6 lane pool) the 6 fastest are in the first wave and can race each other, the next 6 fastest in the next wave, etc.

I alternate lactate tolerance and lactate production workouts; 1 the first week and the other the following week.

Rich

The Fortress
November 22nd, 2010, 06:44 PM
Leslie,
Try 10 X 25 on 1:00 with 15 Y/M all out breakouts and then cruise the rest of the way. It only relies on the CP-ATP energy system which is quickly replenished and even I have enough recovery time to be very explosive on all efforts. In a team setting this is a fun workout where you mix up the lanes so (in a 6 lane pool) the 6 fastest are in the first wave and can race each other, the next 6 fastest in the next wave, etc.

I alternate lactate tolerance and lactate production workouts; 1 the first week and the other the following week.

Rich

Thanks Rich. I've done a variation of this before, but I will be sure to include it in future workouts.

I can only seem to tolerate one true lactate type set per week as well.

philoswimmer
November 22nd, 2010, 07:37 PM
That's basically one form of lactic threshold. It can help train your body to perform under the stress of high lactic levels. When your body hits high lactic levels, you start to shut down. This training can help you push through that situation. In a racing situation, this is what helps you get home on the last 50 of a 200, or the last 100 of a 500, or of a 1000, when your arms and legs are burning in pain.

But no, it's not sprinting.

-Rick

So, how would you estimate your level of effort with sets like that -- would you say you are working as hard as you do when you sprint, but not going as fast? Sorry for all of the questions -- but this is very helpful for me!

Karl_S
November 22nd, 2010, 08:13 PM
So, how would you estimate your level of effort with sets like that -- would you say you are working as hard as you do when you sprint, but not going as fast? Sorry for all of the questions -- but this is very helpful for me!
I've never really understood what "80% effort" or "70% effort" means, but have found this web site
http://www.brianmac.co.uk/swimming/swimplan.htm
to be helpful:

philoswimmer
November 22nd, 2010, 09:32 PM
I've never really understood what "80% effort" or "70% effort" means, but have found this web site
http://www.brianmac.co.uk/swimming/swimplan.htm
to be helpful:

Thanks, that is helpful. Sounds like close to maximum effort (assuming maximum effort correlates with maximum heart rate).

osterber
November 23rd, 2010, 09:30 AM
So, how would you estimate your level of effort with sets like that -- would you say you are working as hard as you do when you sprint, but not going as fast? Sorry for all of the questions -- but this is very helpful for me!

Truth is, it depends. As with lots of swimming... there are many ways to skin the cat.

You could approach the set by going as hard as you can, with the expectation that you will fade/die/crash/etc. as the set progresses. Then you can fight through that discomfort at the end.

You could also approach the set with a "best average" approach. I.e., try to hold the same speed throughout the set, but leave nothing in the tank at the end. That's a bit more like practicing for a race. It's also similar to doing a "broken" swim.

I.e., 5 x 100 @ 1:15, holding 1:05 pace is just like doing a broken 500, taking 10 seconds rest at each 100.

-Rick

orca1946
November 23rd, 2010, 12:33 PM
YES - as an older sprinter, I do need more recovery time to hold a number. I can stay with swimmers 20 yrs younger than myself on distance,but at sprints it takes it out of me !!

Jazz Hands
November 23rd, 2010, 01:14 PM
My college coach told me, "A sprint workout done correctly is the hardest workout in the pool. A sprint workout done incorrectly is the easiest."

That's sounds clever and everything, but a painful workout isn't necessarily more effective race preparation than an easier one. The 10x25 set Rich gave is not difficult per se, but it is great for technique and explosiveness.

Anyway, I think the correct answer to "how much rest" is as much as you need. You don't even have to watch the clock. Just set a goal for the speed you want to reach, and go when you've recovered enough to maintain that speed.

Allen Stark
November 23rd, 2010, 02:23 PM
That's sounds clever and everything, but a painful workout isn't necessarily more effective race preparation than an easier one. The 10x25 set Rich gave is not difficult per se, but it is great for technique and explosiveness.

Anyway, I think the correct answer to "how much rest" is as much as you need. You don't even have to watch the clock. Just set a goal for the speed you want to reach, and go when you've recovered enough to maintain that speed.

Exactly.Lets say your goal time for a 50 is 30 sec.Allowing 2 sec for the dive that means if you split"evenly" it would be 14/16.That means your AFAP 25s should be around 16 sec.Give yourself enough rest to go that fast.If you start doing 17s add more rest.

philoswimmer
November 23rd, 2010, 04:25 PM
Exactly.Lets say your goal time for a 50 is 30 sec.Allowing 2 sec for the dive that means if you split"evenly" it would be 14/16.That means your AFAP 25s should be around 16 sec.Give yourself enough rest to go that fast.If you start doing 17s add more rest.

I guess if you're in a coached workout, that means sitting out a few or going easy on a few?

Allen Stark
November 23rd, 2010, 04:31 PM
I guess if you're in a coached workout, that means sitting out a few or going easy on a few?

Absolutely.Active recovery is fine if you can swim it slowly enough to recover.As has been noted many time,most Masters workouts are not sprinter friendly.Tell you coach and lane mates what you are doing to minimize the dirty looks,but you have to swim fast to swim fast.

The Fortress
November 23rd, 2010, 04:34 PM
That's sounds clever and everything, but a painful workout isn't necessarily more effective race preparation than an easier one. The 10x25 set Rich gave is not difficult per se, but it is great for technique and explosiveness.

Anyway, I think the correct answer to "how much rest" is as much as you need. You don't even have to watch the clock. Just set a goal for the speed you want to reach, and go when you've recovered enough to maintain that speed.

Agree. Do this all the time.

Did Rich's "burst" set today. It was fabulous for explosive work and 1:00 was plenty of rest for the desired goal.