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ande
February 3rd, 2011, 10:36 AM
How Cheaters Cheat in practice and meets might stir up a lively discussion.

Here's the RULES (http://www.usms.org/rules/)

Swimming Rules (http://www.usms.org/rules/part1.pdf)

How do cheaters cheat?
Got any stories?
Did they get caught or get away with it?

If you see someone cheating or know they are
do you point it out to the ref or keep quiet?

tjrpatt
February 3rd, 2011, 11:56 AM
cheaters know the latest drugs or procedures that won't show up on any drug test.

Speedo
February 3rd, 2011, 12:46 PM
I wouldn't point out an instance of cheating to a ref, but I would point it out to my teammates, gawk, and point.

That Guy
February 3rd, 2011, 01:15 PM
Last meet I was at, I watched a friend swim the 100 IM. At the end of his breaststroke leg, he was 2 feet from the wall, already fully extended, and running out of momentum. His options:

1. Try to take another full stroke cycle (might not have enough room)
2. Try to glide into the wall (might not make it, or might lose lots of time)
3. Take a half-stroke cycle (possible DQ depending on how it's done)
4. Take a dolphin kick (very very against the rules)

From my vantage point, he appeared to choose #4. He wasn't DQ'd. I asked him about it afterward, and sure enough, he did indeed take a dolphin kick to get to the wall. It wasn't planned, he didn't set any records, and he won't be in the top ten for the 100 IM. We laughed about it, but dolphin kicking in breaststroke is one way that cheaters cheat.

Bobinator
February 3rd, 2011, 01:31 PM
During the 50 Free in my last meet I rolled and jumped the gun on the start. I finished the event and just assumed I was deeked; I figured the overworked starter didn't have time to tell me. I was shocked a couple days later when I saw my name in on-line results in 1st place for the event and not DQ'd. I didn't mean to do it! I hope people realized I would have pushed off the block instead of falling like a tree if I were doing it to gain advantage. Anyway this thread makes me feel a little guilty!

knelson
February 3rd, 2011, 01:33 PM
3. Take a half-stroke cycle (possible DQ depending on how it's done)

Unless it means taking two pulls in a row or two kicks in a row it shouldn't be a DQ. You don't need to take a full stroke cycle at the turns and finish in breaststroke. A pull without a kick is OK.


101.2.4 Turns and Finish—At each turn and at the finish of the race, the touch
shall be made with both hands simultaneously at, above or below the water
level. The head may be submerged after the last arm pull prior to the touch,
provided it breaks the surface of the water at some point during the last
complete or incomplete cycle preceding the touch.

thewookiee
February 3rd, 2011, 01:48 PM
I was dq'ed in a 200 backstroke once. The official told me after the race. When the results were posted, I wasn't listed as being dq'ed. I immediately found the official to ask him. He said that he had submitted the paperwork for the infraction.

I informed him that the results showed someone else was dq'ed. He immediately when to the officials table to check. Sure enough, he had wrote down the wrong lane. He thanked me for the honesty.

Atlantic
February 3rd, 2011, 02:07 PM
At a meet in Ohio, there were periods of time where there were no officials on the opposite side of the pool. I watched many swimmers do a one handed turn from breast to free on the 100 IM.

want2beafish
February 3rd, 2011, 02:26 PM
During the 50 Free in my last meet I rolled and jumped the gun on the start. I finished the event and just assumed I was deeked; I figured the overworked starter didn't have time to tell me. I was shocked when I saw my name in 1st place for the event and not DQ'd. I didn't mean to do it! I hope people realized I would have pushed off the block instead of falling like a tree if I were doing it to gain advantage. Anyway this thread makes me feel a little guilty!
Don't feel guilty at all! Cheating by definition is intentional. Not being deeked because the official didn't see/call a mistake is just lucky. :)

Lump
February 3rd, 2011, 02:41 PM
I MIGHT just hide a few times under the bulkhead at Auburn during the 1650! :D

stillwater
February 3rd, 2011, 02:47 PM
At a dual meet that my team was going to easily win, my coach placed me in the 50 free. I never swam the 50 because I was a lousy a sprinter.

Here was a chance at a PR. I planned on trying to time the gun to see if I could break 23 seconds. My timing was a bit early and I remember hearing the gun while in motion. The starter didn't call it, and I squeaked in at a 22.9.

Was that cheating?

Speedo
February 3rd, 2011, 02:53 PM
At a dual meet that my team was going to easily win, my coach placed me in the 50 free. I never swam the 50 because I was a lousy a sprinter.

Here was a chance at a PR. I planned on trying to time the gun to see if I could break 23 seconds. My timing was a bit early and I remember hearing the gun while in motion. The starter didn't call it, and I squeaked in at a 22.9.

Was that cheating?Yes, but the statute of limitations has run out. You're good.

Tri-ingToTurn40
February 3rd, 2011, 03:15 PM
I was dq'ed in a 200 backstroke once. The official told me after the race. When the results were posted, I wasn't listed as being dq'ed. I immediately found the official to ask him. He said that he had submitted the paperwork for the infraction.

I informed him that the results showed someone else was dq'ed. He immediately when to the officials table to check. Sure enough, he had wrote down the wrong lane. He thanked me for the honesty.

Don't know if would would track down the official to make sure I got DQ'd like I was supposed to. Probably? Maybe?

BUT, like you did, I would definitely do what I could to make sure no one was incorrectly DQ'd in my place.

stillwater
February 3rd, 2011, 03:39 PM
Yes, but the statute of limitations has run out. You're good.

Thanks for the ruling. Whew.

Acceptable cheating in swimming seems to fall somewhere between golf and waterpolo.

orca1946
February 3rd, 2011, 03:56 PM
I lied when I told someone that I wore a size 34 swim suit!:bolt:

fmracing
February 3rd, 2011, 04:16 PM
Is it cheating to apply muscle ointment for the express purpose of increasing the slipperiness of the skin? I've heard different things about this and it was common practice while i was growing up in the sport during the 90's. The only thing mentioned in the rules above (via quick search) is that oil is allowed for rub downs if not deemed "excessive". That seems like a HUGE gray area especially when you consider that you can't even see excessive amounts of the ointment once it's rubbed into the skin.

To this day the smell of myoflex is something I mentally associate with paper suits and tapers.

Chris Stevenson
February 3rd, 2011, 04:43 PM
I was dq'ed in a 200 backstroke once. The official told me after the race. When the results were posted, I wasn't listed as being dq'ed. I immediately found the official to ask him. He said that he had submitted the paperwork for the infraction.

I informed him that the results showed someone else was dq'ed. He immediately when to the officials table to check. Sure enough, he had wrote down the wrong lane. He thanked me for the honesty.

An official writes down the wrong lane? How can he be sure that he DQ'd the right person? Seems to me that there is sufficient doubt that neither you nor the other guy should have been DQ'd.

Allen Stark
February 3rd, 2011, 05:18 PM
How cheaters cheat,one way in BR is dolphin as soon as you hit the water,dolphin as you separate your hands before the real pulldown,then exaggerate your "natural undulation" for a third dolphin.Most Masters judges will DQ you,but Olympic judges evidently won't.
I have deliberately cheated exactly once in my life.My freshman year in college we were at a duel meet.The coach of the other team was the starter(yea,that was fair.)He had some swimmers that were very close to making Nats cuts and he simply wasn't calling false starts.This was when you didn't get DQd on the first false start so I had nothing to lose by jumping early.For the 200 BR as soon as he said "take your marks" I jumped.I heard the gun as I entered the water.As I took the first turn and saw no false start rope I started laughing so much I had a lousy time anyway,but I still think it was funny.

knelson
February 3rd, 2011, 05:36 PM
as soon as he said "take your marks" I jumped.I heard the gun as I entered the water.

Hey, at least he was judging both teams equally!

nkfrench
February 3rd, 2011, 07:36 PM
College varsity vs alumni meets were rife with blatant cheating. Like - turning at the flags instead of going in to the wall. Early take-offs on relays. Switching to freestyle on a stroke race. All in good fun.

I've seen somebody swim under the ropes into the adjacent lane and grab the ankles of the lead swimmer at a USMS meet. Not tellin' names but it was very funny to watch.

jaadams1
February 3rd, 2011, 07:57 PM
I've seen somebody swim under the ropes into the adjacent lane and grab the ankles of the lead swimmer at a USMS meet. Not tellin' names but it was very funny to watch.

I take my swim racing serious. If someone ever did that to me in a USMS meet, I'd be ticked to say the least...and immediately after they did that, they would probably be prying their goggles out of their eye sockets!!
:duel:

That Guy
February 3rd, 2011, 10:46 PM
I guess I've seen relay shenanigans at some USMS meets, but only in unofficial t-shirt relays and such. I don't regard that as cheating since those aren't real events.

no200fly
February 3rd, 2011, 11:16 PM
How do cheaters cheat?
Got any stories?


I read somewhere something about taking a dolphin kick as you entered the water on breaststroke - because it could not be seen by stroke judges. Seems like it was someone on this board.

chowmi
February 3rd, 2011, 11:51 PM
Has anyone ever been banned from USMS for any reason?

knelson
February 4th, 2011, 12:45 AM
If someone ever did that to me in a USMS meet, I'd be ticked to say the least

OK, I'll keep that in mind on Saturday James! :bolt:

nkfrench
February 4th, 2011, 07:27 PM
Has anyone ever been banned from USMS for any reason? I've heard rumor of a swimmer being expelled from USMS for misrepresenting his age so he could compete in the next older age group.

analazy
February 5th, 2011, 02:32 AM
Relays , changing one swimmer as there is no identification procedure at the start .
No, did not point it out nor (almost sure) will point out in the future… :blush:
if someone is cheating as a Master swimmer is only harming himself; just make a mental note about that person who must be terrible unhappy to cheat doing a hobby:afraid:

ande
February 5th, 2011, 07:25 AM
I read somewhere something about taking a dolphin kick as you entered the water on breaststroke - because it could not be seen by stroke judges. Seems like it was someone on this board.

http://forums.usms.org/showpost.php?p=235079&postcount=18

Lump
February 5th, 2011, 09:00 AM
I take my swim racing serious. If someone ever did that to me in a USMS meet, I'd be ticked to say the least...and immediately after they did that, they would probably be prying their goggles out of their eye sockets!!
:duel:

I accidently went under the rope to climb out after the 800 free and didn't even realize that the guy next to me hadn't finished (this is like :30 or more after I finished). I tried to duck under but still got in his way just a bit. I immediately apologized and got splashed in the face for my efforts. Had I not been so tired I might have dragged him to the bottom for that....with only me surfacing. But I just let it go. I figured they might disqualify me for what happened, but nothing became of it.

Sometimes you forget the little things, it was like my 3rd meet back swimming or something like that too.

EJB190
February 5th, 2011, 10:48 AM
I accidently went under the rope to climb out after the 800 free and didn't even realize that the guy next to me hadn't finished (this is like :30 or more after I finished). I tried to duck under but still got in his way just a bit. I immediately apologized and got splashed in the face for my efforts. Had I not been so tired I might have dragged him to the bottom for that....with only me surfacing. But I just let it go. I figured they might disqualify me for what happened, but nothing became of it.

Sometimes you forget the little things, it was like my 3rd meet back swimming or something like that too.

I just watched a college meet where a girl won the 500 and got out of the pool before everyone had finished and got DQ'ed. I find that doing long events my mind sometimes goes somewhere else.

How about cheating at practice? Coach tells you to swim 1000 and people stop at 800. How did you finish before me when I started in front of you and you never passed me?

chowmi
February 5th, 2011, 11:42 AM
I just watched a college meet where a girl won the 500 and got out of the pool before everyone had finished and got DQ'ed. I find that doing long events my mind sometimes goes somewhere else.

How about cheating at practice? Coach tells you to swim 1000 and people stop at 800. How did you finish before me when I started in front of you and you never passed me?


I agree in part. It is very irksome when people are doing zany things in the lane AND interfere with what the proscribed (sp?), mainstream set is suppose to be. However, rule of thumb for us is that everyone is doing something different, and there is always a rotating group of injured or recovering from injury swimmers, so who's to say why the equipment grab, shortened sets, etc....I say as long as everyone stays consistent within the lane and the right of way belongs to the lead swimmers....

Circa 2004-2008, I routinely swam 1/2 of every set (distance-wise), got out at 1000-1500, swam fly for free, never pulled, didn't use flip turns, and whatever else you may consider "cheating". But I didn't draft or hold up the lead person if I was being lapped. I did what I had to do to rest and let my back heal.

Fast forward to 2009 and beyond, I will be the last person to name call anyone a "cheater". If you show up and get in the water and do something, then I say great for you!!!

Remember not everyone has the same goals as you! Put another way, no one else on DAMM is geared to swimming a meet a month and gunning for the 50 free! And I very much consciously (sp?) think about every set given, and determine if I do it or tweak it. With 1 hour x 4 practices per week, I have no time for additional yardage that doesn't directly translate to speed in my 50 free.

And once I am over my sprinting/racing fix, then I am toying with buying lots of fins for every type of occasion and using them all the time, just for fun!!!!:drool: <=my kids liked this one.

Lump
February 5th, 2011, 12:45 PM
I train alone, so I cheat, I only cheat myself.

orca1946
February 5th, 2011, 12:56 PM
We have people on the team that never do stroke drills correctly, they do free 3 strokes into each turn to stay up with the lane.

smontanaro
February 5th, 2011, 02:18 PM
We have people on the team that never do stroke drills correctly, they do free 3 strokes into each turn to stay up with the lane.

Hmmm... I have always been counseled to do stroke drills slowly in order to perfect the specific technique the drill targets. Maybe the other people in the lane are going too fast. :D

couldbebetterfly
February 5th, 2011, 05:24 PM
I accidently went under the rope to climb out after the 800 free and didn't even realize that the guy next to me hadn't finished (this is like :30 or more after I finished). I tried to duck under but still got in his way just a bit. I immediately apologized and got splashed in the face for my efforts. Had I not been so tired I might have dragged him to the bottom for that....with only me surfacing. But I just let it go. I figured they might disqualify me for what happened, but nothing became of it.

Sometimes you forget the little things, it was like my 3rd meet back swimming or something like that too.

So that is still a rule then? You must wait for everyone to finish? Used to be in the UK, then they changed it so we could get out (as long as we don't interfere with the other pads or other swimmers). I always preferred the stay-in rule as I like a breather after I finish, rather than be hustled out - unless I'm last.

Lump
February 5th, 2011, 05:56 PM
So that is still a rule then? You must wait for everyone to finish? Used to be in the UK, then they changed it so we could get out (as long as we don't interfere with the other pads or other swimmers). I always preferred the stay-in rule as I like a breather after I finish, rather than be hustled out - unless I'm last.

No sure, I generally am gasping for breath after I finish, so I just try to recover until I'm summoned to get out! :D

Michael Heather
February 6th, 2011, 12:30 AM
I think the most popular cheat in practice is the leadoff swimmer going 2-3 seconds early, followed by the trailing swimmers in the lane leaving on his feet. no interval, just early sendoffs to get a good time. Finishing the swim, they pull their head up and out of the water with a flourish to see their time on the pace clock, but their hand is 5 feet from the wall. And they all complain about how crummy their times are in races. " I do better than this in workout!" Well, duh.

The next good practice cheat is the mid-lap turn. Can't keep up with the lane in a 500? No problem, you can pick up a 25 (or almost 50 m in long course) by turning around under the recall ropes!

Don't forget the backstroke help by pulling on the lane lines. Or breaststroke help by doing continuous dolphin and/or flutter kicks during the 20 yard pullout.

Did I miss any?

That Guy
February 6th, 2011, 11:25 AM
Did I miss any?

using fins in a non-fin set :bolt:

stillwater
February 6th, 2011, 01:25 PM
Duct taping, Red Bull, tech suits(sorry, couldn't resist), drafting in races where it isn't allowed, cutting the corner in open water, touching the wall with one hand in fly and breast.

Stealing you competitors swim suit or scratching his goggles to opaque, feeding them a banned substance, locking them out of the locker room, creating stress for your opponent for an advantage, and my favorite, buying them the last whiskey shot of the evening before an early morning race.

I guess it's not cheating if it's good whiskey.

Chris Stevenson
February 6th, 2011, 01:34 PM
using fins in a non-fin set

Is that what you meant? (Sorry, can't resist tweaking the nose of fin-lovers out there.)

I'm sure others would add "using paddles and/or pull-buoys in a non-pull set" too.

The Fortress
February 6th, 2011, 02:13 PM
(Sorry, can't resist tweaking the nose of fin-lovers out there.)



I'm impervious to criticism now.

I thought this thread would be about drugs, not what swimmers do in masters perogative practices. :bolt:

gdanner
February 6th, 2011, 02:51 PM
drafting in races where it isn't allowed.

I consider drafting in a meet a viable race strategy.

I'll do one handed turns in practice regularly, but never on purpose in meets. Pulling on the laneline in backstroke is a common cheat for many swimmers in practice. It would annoy me in college if a teammate was able to keep up with me, but I don't have the same competition on my club team so it doesn't bother me if people do it.

EJB190
February 6th, 2011, 04:48 PM
using fins in a non-fin set :bolt:

:applaud:

If God wanted us to have fins, we'd have fins. Instead we have feet. Great, now it comes down to Evolution vs. Creationism. Who knew this could spiral out of control so quickly.

(please sense my facetiousness)

Bobinator
February 6th, 2011, 05:05 PM
I'm impervious to criticism now.

I thought this thread would be about drugs, not what swimmers do in masters perogative practices. :bolt:

I agree with Fort!!!!
Practice is not a competition with a winner at the end! In fact I thought the first 2 rules of master's swimming were "Do exactly what the coach tells you to do unless you want to do something else." There are no rules in practice!
As far as GTD the rules state that any yardage should be counted including fins, kick, pull, and drills.
In races during swim meets, it's a whole different animal and cheating would be a consideration.

That Guy
February 6th, 2011, 05:19 PM
:applaud:

If God wanted us to have fins, we'd have fins. Instead we have feet. Great, now it comes down to Evolution vs. Creationism. Who knew this could spiral out of control so quickly.

(please sense my facetiousness)

Just so everyone's clear, I have no problem with anyone using fins. (Properly.) And if the person in the next lane is wearing fins and I'm not, beating them is that much sweeter. But if you want to swim in my lane wearing fins in a non-fin set, you can either go last in the lane or GTFO.

no200fly
February 6th, 2011, 05:58 PM
Pulling on the laneline in backstroke is a common cheat for many swimmers in practice.

If pulling on the lane ropes in practice was cheating, they wouldn't have put hand holds all along the length of the rope. ...Now if there were just some way you could use them in the other strokes.

jaadams1
February 6th, 2011, 06:57 PM
If pulling on the lane ropes in practice was cheating, they wouldn't have put hand holds all along the length of the rope. ...Now if there were just some way you could use them in the other strokes.

I use them occasionally in freestyle as I come out of a streamline, but rather than pulling with my bottom arm to level my body, I just use the top arm to grab those hand holds on the lane line and get going. :) Usually only do this cooling down or while just doing back and forth stuff waiting for the others that jump in late to finish their warmup...

chowmi
February 6th, 2011, 10:08 PM
I've heard rumor of a swimmer being expelled from USMS for misrepresenting his age so he could compete in the next older age group.


Very interesting! Was going to ask about another poster's reply to my original question, which gave mucH juicer details! Unfortunatey, I think that was deleted from the forums! Too bad USMS can put in hardcopy print Welsford's letter, but heck they have to delete some reference to banned or previously banned swimmers. And names weren't even named.

My question is....ARE THEY BACK AND WERE ANY OF THEIR TOP TENS AND/OR RECORDS AND/OR RELAY RECORDS RESCINDED?????

chowmi
February 6th, 2011, 10:09 PM
I'm impervious to criticism now.

I thought this thread would be about drugs, not what swimmers do in masters perogative practices. :bolt:


See post #1. I think Ande leaves it wide open to take many tangents! tee hee!!!

The Fortress
February 6th, 2011, 10:14 PM
Very interesting! Was going to ask about another poster's reply to my original question, which gave mucH juicer details! Unfortunatey, I think that was deleted from the forums! Too bad USMS can put in hardcopy print Welsford's letter, but heck they have to delete some reference to banned or previously banned swimmers. And names weren't even named.

My question is....ARE THEY BACK AND WERE ANY OF THEIR TOP TENS AND/OR RECORDS AND/OR RELAY RECORDS RESCINDED?????

Yes, how is it a personal attack if they did the deed?

Is there a right to privacy on the forums now?

That Guy
February 6th, 2011, 10:47 PM
Yes, how is it a personal attack if they did the deed?

Is there a right to privacy on the forums now?

So... personal attacks are what get posts deleted? Interesting.... OK I'm kind of new at this but I guess I have to take one for the team here.

:banana:That Guy has below average intelligence! :banana: Delete this post! :banana:

Am I doing it wrong?

matysekj
February 6th, 2011, 10:56 PM
Please don't jump to any conclusions without any facts at all. No posts have been deleted or altered in this thread by any moderators. A few posts have been self-deleted by those who originally posted them, but USMS has not touched anything in this thread.

The Fortress
February 6th, 2011, 11:02 PM
So... personal attacks are what get posts deleted? Interesting.... OK I'm kind of new at this but I guess I have to take one for the team here.

:banana:That Guy has below average intelligence! :banana: Delete this post! :banana:

Am I doing it wrong?

No good. I had to call myself a godless commie gaybird to get deleted.

jaadams1
February 6th, 2011, 11:33 PM
So... personal attacks are what get posts deleted? Interesting.... OK I'm kind of new at this but I guess I have to take one for the team here.

:banana:That Guy has below average intelligence! :banana: Delete this post! :banana:

Am I doing it wrong?


You said it first!!! :bolt:

Chris Stevenson
February 7th, 2011, 08:34 AM
My question is....ARE THEY BACK AND WERE ANY OF THEIR TOP TENS AND/OR RECORDS AND/OR RELAY RECORDS RESCINDED?

I only know of one case, which doesn't mean there aren't others. I had to scrub all of this person's Top 10 swims from the pre-1993 data we loaded last year, so I assume this has been done for any other cases as well.

nkfrench
February 7th, 2011, 12:32 PM
Very interesting! ... some reference to banned or previously banned swimmers. And names weren't even named.

My question is....ARE THEY BACK AND WERE ANY OF THEIR TOP TENS AND/OR RECORDS AND/OR RELAY RECORDS RESCINDED?????
The rumor I heard wasn't from an authoritative source. I don't know the details of the punishment nor do I feel it appropriate to mention names in the case I was told about.

It makes sense that the swims would have been disallowed from consideration for records/top ten as the swimmer had committed the infraction (falsifying entry) prior to the swim.

knelson
February 7th, 2011, 01:43 PM
If pulling on the lane ropes in practice was cheating, they wouldn't have put hand holds all along the length of the rope.

I agree! Which reminds me, is there anything worse then when you grab one of these "hand holds" and it just slides along the cable and you don't get any oomph out of it at all? I hate when that happens!

Chris Stevenson
February 7th, 2011, 02:01 PM
I've never really understood the impulse to pull on lane lines. It totally teaches the wrong mechanics in backstroke. And it is bad for the lane lines too, and they ain't cheap.

Plus I'm not any good at it -- it actually slows me down -- so it costs me nothing to get all "purist" about it.... :bolt:

stillwater
February 7th, 2011, 02:05 PM
Which reminds me, is there anything worse then when you grab one of these "hand holds" and it just slides along the cable and you don't get any oomph out of it at all?

From my experience, this happens because that rapscallion in the lane next to you is cheating by pulling on the hand hold. It is quite frustrating when I get it all stacked up in my favor and somebody swims along and spoils my party.

Boo hoo.

osterber
February 7th, 2011, 02:28 PM
I knowingly cheated once in a race. It was a 50 SCM backstroke. I am not a backstroker. I was doing it for fun. I happened to notice that (a) there was no marking at the 15 meter mark, and (b) no official anywhere near where the 15 meter mark would be. On the start, I was definitely underwater more than 15 meters. My head popped up just before the far flags. No disqualification as there was no official in position.

The referee (a good friend) came to me after the race and asked if I had known there was nobody at the 15M mark. I nodded. The referee said "I thought so" with a smile. The referee said they would have DQed me if I had gone past the flags, but they couldn't enforce a DQ otherwise.

It wasn't a record or notable time in any way, so my guilt level was rather low. Had it been, I absolutely would have found a way to disqualify myself.

-Rick

osterber
February 7th, 2011, 02:36 PM
In the workout space... I only have a problem with drafters who pretend they're not drafting. I happen to be extremely easy to drag off of. Lots of smooth moving water behind me. It is often said the best place to be in the pool is about 3 seconds behind me.

If you're having a tough workout, or you're stepping up a lane, etc., I have no issue with you getting on my feet. However, if you're going to pretend that your time was 'unassisted', then that ticks me off. If you're shamelessly dragging... you gotta be honest with yourself about it.

-Rick

The Fortress
February 7th, 2011, 02:53 PM
I've never really understood the impulse to pull on lane lines. It totally teaches the wrong mechanics in backstroke.



Me too. I've never once pulled on a lane line.

I'm all about the one handed turns in practice though.

no200fly
February 7th, 2011, 03:06 PM
I've never really understood the impulse to pull on lane lines. It totally teaches the wrong mechanics in backstroke. And it is bad for the lane lines too, and they ain't cheap.

Plus I'm not any good at it -- it actually slows me down -- so it costs me nothing to get all "purist" about it.... :bolt:

The other thing pulling on the lane ropes does is keep you from inappropriately touching the women in the next lane over when you swim close to the rope. Thus I feel a noble purpose in this "cheat." I agree that it is not as fast, but for me it is a lot easier.
As you can tell, I am not really that fond of a stroke where you get water in your nose. If not for the IM, I would be in favor of sending it the way of tech suits.

no200fly
February 7th, 2011, 03:11 PM
I use them occasionally in freestyle as I come out of a streamline, but rather than pulling with my bottom arm to level my body, I just use the top arm to grab those hand holds on the lane line and get going. :)

Tried it today - can't do it

Allen Stark
February 7th, 2011, 03:50 PM
First year in High School I didn't letter because I barely didn't have enough points.I would have had I not gotten DQd for a one handed BR turn.That's the last time I did a one handed BR turn.Practice how you race.

Stevepowell
February 7th, 2011, 06:34 PM
How cheaters cheat,one way in BR is dolphin as soon as you hit the water,...


Is it dolpining as part of the dive where the feet, calves haven't entered yet?

PS. Can you do a pulldown in the other strokes?

Allen Stark
February 8th, 2011, 01:34 PM
Is it dolpining as part of the dive where the feet, calves haven't entered yet?

PS. Can you do a pulldown in the other strokes?
I think it is not a dolphin kick if the feet haven't entered.
You can do a pulldown in free as long as you don't go past 15M,but it probably isn't faster.You can do a pulldown in BK as long as you are on your back,in fact I do on the rare occasions I swim BK.(In the BK leg of the 100 IM I try to swim 15 M underwater BR on my back as my BR is much faster than my BK or my SDK.)

pmccoy
February 8th, 2011, 05:07 PM
(In the BK leg of the 100 IM I try to swim 15 M underwater BR on my back as my BR is much faster than my BK or my SDK.)Just clarifying on this... you swim upside down breast stroke pull-outs for 15m? Interesting... I'm in the same situation (slow back/fast breast stroke) but I'd have never thought of trying something like this.

edit: by "slow"... I mean slower than my breast stroke... not to imply that you swim any stroke slow... just that I'm slow... can someone pull my foot out of my mouth?

Chicken of the Sea
February 8th, 2011, 05:10 PM
Me too. I've never once pulled on a lane line.

I'm all about the one handed turns in practice though.

I got tendonitis once from too much lane-line pulling. I'm better at it now though

Allen Stark
February 8th, 2011, 06:07 PM
Just clarifying on this... you swim upside down breast stroke pull-outs for 15m? Interesting... I'm in the same situation (slow back/fast breast stroke) but I'd have never thought of trying something like this.

edit: by "slow"... I mean slower than my breast stroke... not to imply that you swim any stroke slow... just that I'm slow... can someone pull my foot out of my mouth?

I come off the wall on my back,do a dolphin kick,then do a BR pullout,then take 4 more BR strokes(regular stroke,except underwater on my back) and then surface(and slow down,my BK is bad.I swam a 200 BK LCM once and I had to make sure the timers had calendar watches.)

ElaineK
February 8th, 2011, 09:43 PM
I come off the wall on my back,do a dolphin kick,then do a BR pullout,then take 4 more BR strokes(regular stroke,except underwater on my back) and then surface(and slow down,my BK is bad.I swam a 200 BK LCM once and I had to make sure the timers had calendar watches.)

:lmao: I can relate, Allen! Although I am enjoying backstroke more (believe it or not!), it is still my slowest stroke- by far.

I worked on the BR pullout on my back for awhile and feel I'm faster at it, too, but I run out of air too fast! And, on IM, I run out way to fast, right after fly. :badday:

pmccoy
February 9th, 2011, 09:25 AM
I come off the wall on my back,do a dolphin kick,then do a BR pullout,then take 4 more BR strokes(regular stroke,except underwater on my back) and then surface(and slow down,my BK is bad.I swam a 200 BK LCM once and I had to make sure the timers had calendar watches.)
Tried this out this morning. First time, I nearly drowned. All sorts of water up my nose. The next time, it went better. The problem was that as soon as I surfaced, the brakes came on before I could get my first stroke in. The plus side was that I got a full 10 meters in before I had to do a stroke :). I see some benefit here if I can transition from upside down breast stroke to back stroke a little smoother. I'm swimming a 200 backstroke in a meet this weekend right before 50 breast. I'm not taking the 200 back too seriously so I wonder if this might be a good warm-up for my next event.

geochuck
February 9th, 2011, 10:01 AM
It happened to me, I was in the water swimming when the gun went off. I won the race and was not d'qd. Now did I cheat or were the officials nuts.


During the 50 Free in my last meet I rolled and jumped the gun on the start. I finished the event and just assumed I was deeked; I figured the overworked starter didn't have time to tell me. I was shocked a couple days later when I saw my name in on-line results in 1st place for the event and not DQ'd. I didn't mean to do it! I hope people realized I would have pushed off the block instead of falling like a tree if I were doing it to gain advantage. Anyway this thread makes me feel a little guilty!

ande
February 9th, 2011, 12:06 PM
This thread could be about drugs but there's many other ways to cheat besides drugs.

Like a few years back I heard of a masters swimmer who broke an IM WR.
In the race this swimmer did a freestyle turn on the bk to br turn.
Just rolled over on stomach, hand never hit the wall & swimmer wasn't DQed.

I think this thread should be focused more on cheating in meets,
everybody cheats in practice and nobody gets deeked.

thought it might be fun to discuss how cheaters cheat &
I hope folks avoid personal attacks.

Also there's intentional cheating and unintentional cheating.

Intentional is doing something on purpose.
like taking performance enhancing drugs or sneaking in extra dolphin kicks on breastroke.

Unintentional is unplanned.
like leaving early on a relay because a teammate messed up their touch.



I thought this thread would be about drugs, not what swimmers do in masters perogative practices. :bolt:

pmccoy
February 9th, 2011, 01:10 PM
I thought I had inadvertently cheated last year. I was swimming breast stroke on the 200 IM Relay and it was my first relay since I was 13. I got a little excited, dove in and forgot what stroke I was swimming. After one sdk it all came back and I quickly completed the pull-out and went on certain I'd be dq'd. I told my teammates what I did and that if we got dq'd it was my fault. They calmly replied "um... you can do that now."