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sw122
February 7th, 2011, 11:06 AM
Does anyone know if there are any rules on pacing? I tried to find information on it but couldn't. The question was raised at our meet yesturday when one of the swimmers had someone swim next to her just to pace her on her 500. Is this legal?

Redbird Alum
February 7th, 2011, 11:46 AM
The following from the USMS Swimming Rules for Competition...

Under rule:
102.14 SWIMWEAR FOR POOL COMPETITION
102.14.1 Design
SubPoint E:
E No swimmer is permitted to wear or use any device or substance to enhance speed, pace, buoyancy or endurance during a race (such as webbed gloves, flippers, fins, etc.). Goggles may be worn, and rubdown oil applied if not considered excessive by the referee. Any kind of tape on the body is not permitted unless approved by the referee.

Also Under rule:
102.15 DISQUALIFICATIONS

102.15.9 No swimmers are permitted to wear or use any device or substance to enhance
speed, pace, buoyancy or endurance during a race (such as webbed gloves, flippers, fins, etc.). Goggles may be worn, and rubdown oil applied if not considered excessive by the referee. Any kind of tape on the body is not permitted unless approved by the referee.

stillwater
February 7th, 2011, 11:59 AM
I believe that helping or being helped by another swimmer through pacing in a race is legal. I could be wrong.

I also believe that it is a completly ethical and pretty nice thing to do.

jaadams1
February 7th, 2011, 12:01 PM
I believe that helping or being helped by another swimmer through pacing in a race is legal. I could be wrong.

I also believe that it is a completly ethical and pretty nice thing to do.

This type of pacing is like the sticking a carrot out in front of a rabbit to make it move faster...just the idea of chasing someone makes me swim faster. It's tough when you have to do it all on your own, believe me.

:bliss:

mrubacky
February 7th, 2011, 12:31 PM
This type of pacing is like the sticking a carrot out in front of a rabbit to make it move faster...just the idea of chasing someone makes me swim faster. It's tough when you have to do it all on your own, believe me.

:bliss:

I totally agree. I'd rather be the slowest swimmer in a heat than the fastest.

stillwater
February 7th, 2011, 02:13 PM
I'd rather be the slowest swimmer in a heat than the fastest.

Not me.

osterber
February 7th, 2011, 02:17 PM
I would need to read through the rulebook carefully... but my impression is that if someone is already in the heat with you, they're free to swim their race any way they want. However, it would be inappropriate to put someone in an empty lane as an unofficial competitor simply for the purpose of pacing.

That is... the person doing the pacing must be a regular competitor, and must be seeded into their lane under normal seeding protocol. If it's a meet that has entry fees, for example, they need to pay the entry fee for that event.

-Rick

aztimm
February 7th, 2011, 03:03 PM
What about at a meet where the end lanes are used for warm up/down. Suppose I make a deal with someone to get in one of those and pace the last 200 of a 500?

sw122
February 7th, 2011, 03:26 PM
The swimmer next to her was seeded but was done solely to help her. He swam a few laps with her then he would stop to rest and when she came back he would go for a few more laps. I swim the 500 all the time and I have to depend soley on myself to keep a pace that is good for me. To have someone lead you out every few laps like that seems to be an unfair advantage.

knelson
February 7th, 2011, 03:38 PM
To have someone lead you out every few laps like that seems to be an unfair advantage.

I see your point, but on the other hand this swimmer still had to swim the race and keep up with the other swimmer who was pacing her. To me it's fair. On the other hand I think everyone should learn how to swim their own race.

Three Rivers
February 7th, 2011, 04:14 PM
My problem is that the pacer had to manufacture a false seed time in order to get the lane next to her. Then, it sounds as though he rested from time to time while she continued to swim. That doesn't seem to pass the smell test IMHO.

aquageek
February 7th, 2011, 04:28 PM
The swimmer next to her was seeded but was done solely to help her. He swam a few laps with her then he would stop to rest and when she came back he would go for a few more laps. I swim the 500 all the time and I have to depend soley on myself to keep a pace that is good for me. To have someone lead you out every few laps like that seems to be an unfair advantage.

How were you disadvantaged in the least? It could have benefited you or, alternatively, you could have paid absolutely no attention and swam your own race.

no200fly
February 7th, 2011, 04:30 PM
My problem is that the pacer had to manufacture a false seed time

I do this all the time. I do it sometimes to try to have clear water in my fly or to get extra rest when events are close together or to try to swim close to someone I want to try to race. I know there are a number of people here who do not believe it is proper, but I really don't see a problem with it.

On the other hand, I don't think I have a friend who is close enough to swim a 500 for the sole purpose of pacing me. It seems like if pacing were the goal, it could have been done more easily by hand signals. I don't think that is illegal.

I guess the other thing one might do is swim close enough to the other competitor's lane that they could draft ... but, all of this seems a little too complex for masters swimming.

knelson
February 7th, 2011, 04:37 PM
My problem is that the pacer had to manufacture a false seed time in order to get the lane next to her.

Big deal. I bet 90% of seed times in masters meets are made up.


Then, it sounds as though he rested from time to time while she continued to swim.

Stopping and resting is perfectly legal.

osterber
February 7th, 2011, 05:47 PM
The swimmer next to her was seeded but was done solely to help her. He swam a few laps with her then he would stop to rest and when she came back he would go for a few more laps. I swim the 500 all the time and I have to depend soley on myself to keep a pace that is good for me. To have someone lead you out every few laps like that seems to be an unfair advantage.

Technically, that is legal. However, it wouldn't surprise me if a referee disqualified the pacer on the grounds of 'unsportsmanlike conduct'. I.e., that is failure to put forth a good faith effort in the race. I know the pacer wouldn't care if they were disqualified.

This is why you should seed yourself correctly, so that you are surrounded by people who are the same speed as you, and you can RACE them. Don't get me started on seed times!

-Rick

fatboy
February 7th, 2011, 05:58 PM
The swimmer next to her was seeded but was done solely to help her. He swam a few laps with her then he would stop to rest and when she came back he would go for a few more laps. I swim the 500 all the time and I have to depend soley on myself to keep a pace that is good for me. To have someone lead you out every few laps like that seems to be an unfair advantage.

Interesting. I have never seen this done. It doen't seem quite "sporting" to me, but I don't have a particular issue with it.

Was this an attempt to set a record or get a top ten spot?

sw122
February 7th, 2011, 10:37 PM
How were you disadvantaged in the least? It could have benefited you or, alternatively, you could have paid absolutely no attention and swam your own race.


I always swim my own race. Thank you. That's why I don't need a pacer. First I wasn't in the same heat. Second, she is in my age group. Third, if she did do it to get a top 10 time or something like that, do you really think that is fair? Also, let it be known that the pacer never finished his laps. He quit when she was done.

sw122
February 7th, 2011, 10:40 PM
I see your point, but on the other hand this swimmer still had to swim the race and keep up with the other swimmer who was pacing her. To me it's fair. On the other hand I think everyone should learn how to swim their own race.
Isn't part of swimming long distance is being able to pace yourself?

rtodd
February 7th, 2011, 10:46 PM
What about at a meet where the end lanes are used for warm up/down. Suppose I make a deal with someone to get in one of those and pace the last 200 of a 500?


It would be interesting to see someone swim a 1:05 pace, or whatever, in the warm up lane around the 5 other people doing lazy backstroke. LOL.

rtodd
February 7th, 2011, 10:54 PM
rabbits are used all the time in running to pace and lead out races. Bottom line is you really don't know what pace the rabbit is running.

Don't coaches signal swimmers when pace is to fast or slow? Is that legal?

knelson
February 7th, 2011, 11:57 PM
Isn't part of swimming long distance is being able to pace yourself?

Yes, I think it is. But the question was whether having someone pace you is legal, and I believe the answer to that question is yes. The fact the pacer was stopping periodically certainly makes it a little more slimy, but as far as I can tell not illegal.

guppy
February 8th, 2011, 09:44 AM
It would be interesting to see someone swim a 1:05 pace, or whatever, in the warm up lane around the 5 other people doing lazy backstroke. LOL.

LOL!

Unless a pace swimmer is a "device," I'd say it's not against the letter but against the spirit of the law.

orca1946
February 8th, 2011, 12:17 PM
In other sports, rabbits/pacers are PAID $$$$ to do just this! I think in a pol area this would be a tough assignment & not work well.

analazy
February 9th, 2011, 02:24 AM
Personally, totally in favor of pace help (even the pulse watch which is illegal while competing):applaud:
About any rule against it ever heard . Though a judge might consider inappropriate conduct if is it “obvious the intention”.
Have been DQ once for doing legs really slow at a competition (400 freestyle), was a protest:D

thewookiee
February 9th, 2011, 08:22 AM
I. Third, if she did do it to get a top 10 time or something like that, do you really think that is fair? Also, let it be known that the pacer never finished his laps. He quit when she was done.

Yes, it is fair. The she still had to do the swimming and get a time that is good enough for top ten. Why does it matter if he didn't finish? He wasn't going for a place, time, etc. Pacing happens all the time in track, so what makes swimming anything special compared to track?

aquageek
February 9th, 2011, 08:54 AM
Also, let it be known that the pacer never finished his laps. He quit when she was done.

Did you want the officials to DQ the person in the warm-up/warm-down lanes for not finishing the event that was going on in the competition lanes?

Seems like a lot of whining over a non-issue.

fmracing
February 9th, 2011, 09:54 AM
Don't coaches signal swimmers when pace is to fast or slow? Is that legal?

Can't be. If that was, then they'd have to turn off the clocks during the swim too. I paced my 200 free the other day by looking at my splits while swimming the race :) It was certainly a device used to enhance pace in that instance. Does that make looking at it illegal?

fatboy
February 9th, 2011, 03:30 PM
Can't be. If that was, then they'd have to turn off the clocks during the swim too. I paced my 200 free the other day by looking at my splits while swimming the race :) It was certainly a device used to enhance pace in that instance. Does that make looking at it illegal?

The clock is available to all competitors in the given race so you did not gain an unfair advantage.

pendaluft
February 9th, 2011, 04:24 PM
The clock is available to all competitors in the given race so you did not gain an unfair advantage.

Not near sighted swimmers.

fmracing
February 9th, 2011, 05:01 PM
Not near sighted swimmers.

Nor people in a lane on the same wall as the time board :) There's some places in a pool that you just can't see it.

jaadams1
February 9th, 2011, 08:02 PM
Can't be. If that was, then they'd have to turn off the clocks during the swim too. I paced my 200 free the other day by looking at my splits while swimming the race :) It was certainly a device used to enhance pace in that instance. Does that make looking at it illegal?

I did the same thing during my 1650 last weekend...I didn't look at the clock all the time, but at certain points in the race I would glance at the clock, do a little math in my head, and pick up the pace (why would I choose to slow down the pace??) :)

swimmerb212
February 9th, 2011, 08:20 PM
The rules on seeding races are very specific:

http://www.usms.org/rules/

Even if you put in the exact same seed time as someone else, you may not end up anywhere near each other or even in the same heat. There's usually no way to predict what lane you're going to be in unless you know everyone else's seed times.

To depend on a pacer would just be silly unless you made the decision to do so right before the race when you noticed that a pace swimmer, who is also a friend, is in an adjacent lane. In that case, it would probably be no different than any other race, because everyone has already submitted legit-enough times.

I suppose you could plan to pace in a postal meet or something, but that's not really messing with a lot of other swimmers in a meet situation, and the stakes are really low.

Rykno
February 10th, 2011, 04:35 AM
here is a rule according to FINA

SW 10.16 No pace-making shall be permitted, nor may any device be used or plan adopted which has that effect


I have even been told that a coach, parent or swimmer using various hand motions to signal on pace or speed up is against this rule. and that is why in sweden only offiicials can hold the lap counter to prevent pace giving information.

there is no specific rule in the fina masters rules, but I assume that most of the standard rules apply if there is no expection or specific change to the rule for masters like with suits between nov and jan 2009-2010

Chris Stevenson
February 10th, 2011, 11:44 AM
here is a rule according to FINA

SW 10.16 No pace-making shall be permitted, nor may any device be used or plan adopted which has that effect


So if an official thinks you looked at the scoreboard and saw your split during a race, you can be DQ'd.

Right? I don't see any other way to read this (rather silly) rule.

aquageek
February 10th, 2011, 11:52 AM
At a recent meet I attended the scoreboard had both the times and laps completed of the 1650. The bonus was that it was super easy to see as you were swimming.

geochuck
February 10th, 2011, 11:54 AM
Our club had a pacing machine on the side of our swimmin gpool deck, It was set at 5 minutes pace for a 450 yd swims. We used it when were doing 450s on 5 minutes. It was on two pulleys and a rope with a flag on it that went up and down the pool. Two swimmers per lane.

stillwater
February 10th, 2011, 12:18 PM
I always wanted a series of lights on the black line that would show me the target pace, in practice not meets.

Or goggles with x-ray vision. Or a ray gun paralyzer. But I never got any of them.

analazy
February 10th, 2011, 02:16 PM
So if an official thinks you looked at the scoreboard and saw your split during a race, you can be DQ'd.

Right? I don't see any other way to read this (rather silly) rule.

must have done by the “suits” (sport politicians)
quoting this article
http://www.swimnews.com/News/view/8427
An Open Letter from the Executive Director of the American Swimming Coaches Association
Comment: A review by ACES (Association of Chief Executives for Sport) supplied to USA-Swimming reports that exactly ZERO are the number of people serving on the governing boards of directors for their international Federation, who are ATHLETES or COACHES. At the end of this short article, I’ll list all the federations who responded.
No athletes. No coaches. What conclusions can we draw from this?

1. International Federations operate as paternalistic organizations where anyone except the “suits” (sport politicians) are not welcome.
2. Professional athletes in all sports, are “done to, and for” by amateurs who reside in the old thinking of the 19th century that only “gentlemen” run sport.
3. Professional coaches are not considered worthy to help govern the sports in which they spend their entire lives.
Someone told me recently that clearly it was a “bad idea” to have athletes and coaches on governing bodies. This same person is a ranking sport politician not only in their own federation, but in the international federation.
What flawed logic. ("it’s never been so, so clearly it should never be so.”)
In reality, this is the strongest possible indictment of the CREDIBILITY of International Sports Federations to govern their sport. Making them, quite literally, IN-Credible.
As proof of the absurdity of this conclusion, I point to USA Swimming and to Australian Swimming….the two most successful sports teams in the history of Olympic Sport, in terms of medals won, records set, etc. (we’ll dismiss the old drug cheating East German regime from consideration, shall we? )
Both organizations have both athletes and coaches imbedded permanently in the highest levels of decision making in their organization….quite successfully it would appear. While I cannot speak authoritatively on the history of Australian Swimming, it is correct that USA Swimming has had athletes and coaches on it’s Board of Directors since it’s inception in 1979.
It works for the two most successful Olympic organizations on the planet, but wouldn’t work for International Federations? Please.
And please, remember that we’re talking “Serving on the governing boards…” not the eyewash of “athletes commissions” that the IOC and some others that they put in place to blunt valid criticism, and then roundly ignore.
Time for a Change. InCredible.

The sports represented in the survey: Badminton, Biathlon, Bowling, Equestrian, Fencing, Field Hockey, Hockey, Lacrosse, Luge, Masters Swimming, Rugby, Sailing, Shooting, Soccer, Softball, Swimming, Synchro Swimming, Table Tennis, Volleyball, Water Polo, Water Ski, Wrestling

That Guy
February 10th, 2011, 06:03 PM
I always wanted a series of lights on the black line that would show me the target pace, in practice not meets.

Or goggles with x-ray vision. Or a ray gun paralyzer. But I never got any of them.

Why would you want goggles with x-ray vision? "There's a skeleton. Hey, there's another skeleton." <THUNK> "OK, apparently that was the wall."

stillwater
February 10th, 2011, 07:17 PM
Why would you want goggles with x-ray vision?

I would only use them to fight evil.

Three Rivers
February 11th, 2011, 12:31 PM
[QUOTE=knelson;235478]Big deal. I bet 90% of seed times in masters meets are made up.



Not trying to be argumentative but it is a big deal to us slow pokes who get drowned in the wake of someone who really shouldn't be in our heat.

knelson
February 11th, 2011, 01:28 PM
Not trying to be argumentative but it is a big deal to us slow pokes who get drowned in the wake of someone who really shouldn't be in our heat.

I agree with you on this. I'm not a fan of entering a slow seed time just to get clear water or to maximize rest time in between events, but I do endorse making up realistic seed times. I always try to enter myself close to the time I think I'll swim, so lots of times this means making up a time.

I also don't think anyone should be able to enter with "NT" (no time). Everyone should have some idea of how fast they'll swim a race, so just enter that guess.

smontanaro
February 11th, 2011, 01:38 PM
I also don't think anyone should be able to enter with "NT" (no time). Everyone should have some idea of how fast they'll swim a race, so just enter that guess.

Roger that. It bugs me to see someone swim, say, 1:03, in the first heat of the 100 free right next to the nice 83-year old lady who seeded herself correctly at 3:03.

S

fmracing
February 11th, 2011, 02:24 PM
I don't think theres a problem with NT seeds unless it becomes obnoxious (i.e. an entire team swimming NT seeds). Some people swim better when they're well ahead in a race with clean water on the sides. NT seeding would be a way to ensure that.

nkfrench
February 11th, 2011, 03:02 PM
Roger that. It bugs me to see someone swim, say, 1:03, in the first heat of the 100 free right next to the nice 83-year old lady who seeded herself correctly at 3:03.

S Agreed. It's not fun getting lapped on a 100. You start the race with the reasonable expectation that you have a fighting chance competing against the swimmer in the next lane; then you wonder what the heck went wrong with your own swim that you got smoked.

It's almost like rubbing the noses of the slower swimmers who already know they're slow.

osterber
February 11th, 2011, 03:10 PM
Some people swim better when they're well ahead in a race with clean water on the sides. NT seeding would be a way to ensure that.

I have absolutely zero patience for that behavior.

-Rick

fmracing
February 11th, 2011, 03:17 PM
I have absolutely zero patience for that behavior.

-Rick

Not saying I do it, I just know it happens ALL the time ;)

Chris Stevenson
February 11th, 2011, 03:55 PM
I don't think theres a problem with NT seeds unless it becomes obnoxious (i.e. an entire team swimming NT seeds). Some people swim better when they're well ahead in a race with clean water on the sides. NT seeding would be a way to ensure that.

There are probably some legit cases for NTs: with beginner/novice swimmers, for example.

But by and large, no. And entering NT just to get clean water is fairly reprehensible, IMO.

Pool time is a precious commodity, and costs money. Plus I don't like to be at a meet any longer than necessary.

I am swimming at a meet this weekend where they will probably have to say "no" to most deck entries because we are bumping right up against the allowed timeline for our event.

Obvious sandbagging or incorrectly entering NTs lengthen the timeline, and are unsportsmanlike to boot (IMO).

But this is a little off the original thread topic so I'll subside for now... :hijack: