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Roque Santos
February 22nd, 2011, 09:33 AM
In today's world, why is USMS nationals entry date 5 weeks before nationals? Our local Pac Masters championship meet (about 900 swimmers in 2010) entry's are dues after USMS nationals dead line. Our meet is 3 weeks before nationals.

jroddin
February 22nd, 2011, 11:03 AM
By saying "In today's world" I assume you are referring to technology advances for seeding, entry processing, etc. However, those advances have very little to do with why we require 35 days notice.

Our Nationals hosts' prepare for their meet for up to 2 years in advance and they have no idea how many swimmers are coming until the entry deadline. Annual meets in the same geographic area (such as a Pac Champ meet) have somewhat predictable attendance each year, but Nationals is anybody's guess (and it is usually wrong). At one point Clovis was preparing for 3000 swimmers (they ended up with 1582). The number of volunteers needed to run the meet relies heavily on the meet timeline - which is wholly contingent upon the number of swimmers (are the days long enough for two shifts or are three needed?). Much has to happen between the entry deadline and the meet at Nationals that doesn't typically occur for local meets (6th event decisions, seeding variation decisions, publishing a 100+ page program with content to comply with USMS corporate partner agreements, setting up shuttle schedules, etc.). And much of this work is done by volunteers. USA Swimming can pull meets together more quickly because they have a paid staff working full time on the meet. But as of this moment, there are no paid staff on the USMS Championship Committee :D

In summary, the Host needs as much time as possible to know how many swimmers are expected to compete. The Championship Committee is aware of the inconvenience of having to enter Nationals prior to many LMSC and Zone Championship meets and is investigating alternatives such as the ability to update your entry times after you've entered, or perhaps the USMS Top Times database will automatically update your seed time if new results get uploaded. This won't happen in time for Mesa or Auburn but I can say it is being looked into - we just talked about it last week on a conference call:
http://www.usms.org/admin/minutes/champ-2011-2-16-1.pdf

Any suggestions are welcome.

Thanks,
Jeff Roddin
USMS Championship Committee Chair
championship@usms.org

Chris Stevenson
February 22nd, 2011, 11:30 AM
But as of this moment, there are no paid staff on the USMS Championship Committee :D

I think the Championship Committee chair should push hard to pay ex-officio members.

Redbird Alum
February 22nd, 2011, 12:31 PM
Regarding the comment about "automatically updating" meet entries based on later performances (following entry), wouldn't this create a host of new problems for the meet committee and the swimmers planning their meet?

When would one consider the "pshych sheets" ready? When would final seeding be accomplished and published? When would swimmers know how much time existed between events/heats?

jaadams1
February 22nd, 2011, 01:01 PM
Regarding the comment about "automatically updating" meet entries based on later performances (following entry), wouldn't this create a host of new problems for the meet committee and the swimmers planning their meet?

When would one consider the "pshych sheets" ready? When would final seeding be accomplished and published? When would swimmers know how much time existed between events/heats?

As far the "auto-updating" or giving us the option to update, I think would make more headaches for everyone in general. I entered into the National Meet with the approx. times I believe I will be swimming at my tapered point. Hopefully there's not a lot of sandbagged times, which I wouldn't really think so, to make this as competitive as possible. It's always strange to see that one guy out there from an early heat that blows everyone away, and says "I didn't realize I was really that fast!"

That Guy
February 22nd, 2011, 01:14 PM
As far the "auto-updating" or giving us the option to update, I think would make more headaches for everyone in general.

Yes. Yes it would.


Hopefully there's not a lot of sandbagged times, which I wouldn't really think so, to make this as competitive as possible.

Hi, you must be new here! :lmao:


It's always strange to see that one guy out there from an early heat that blows everyone away, and says "I didn't realize I was really that fast!"

OK, I'm going to let you go on a technicality... this time

jaadams1
February 22nd, 2011, 02:57 PM
OK, I'm going to let you go on a technicality... this time

You did notice I entered that "one" magic word, so as not to refer to anyone in particular! :)

knelson
February 22nd, 2011, 03:16 PM
I agree an auto-update on times wouldn't be a great idea. It would be nice if there was a manual option to update your times, though. Obviously there would still need to be some cut-off date, but it could be after most local championship meets.

swoomer
February 22nd, 2011, 06:30 PM
This year is a little more challenging because of the suit change. Many of us won't know how this will affect our times until we swim in a meet, which may be after the deadline. Some may have to guess and hope they're close.

jaadams1
February 22nd, 2011, 08:03 PM
This year is a little more challenging because of the suit change. Many of us won't know how this will affect our times until we swim in a meet, which may be after the deadline. Some may have to guess and hope they're close.

The suits are all psychological...just as shaving is...
I've swum just as fast in my career in a regular old meet as compared to end of the season meets. It's all in how you approach the swims.

Yes, there is a little advantage given to both, but it's nothing that's going to throw off your time by minutes for example.
If you train hard enough, taper well, shave and race hard when the time comes, your times ideally should be pretty close to last year...when you didn't train very hard, didn't need to taper, didn't need to shave down to race because all you had to do was have $$$$$ to buy a rubber boat with built in engine (B70), zip it on, dive in, and touch the wall in record time!!!

As you can tell, I'm glad the tech suit era is dead and gone. :bliss:

ElaineK
February 22nd, 2011, 09:05 PM
As you can tell, I'm glad the tech suit era is dead and gone. :bliss:

Uh-oh, James, ya better watch out; you're about to get blasted! :worms: As a newbie to USMS and the forums, right before Nationals, I got a lot of :bitching: and :argue: when I expressed the same views about tech suits. Ohhhhh boy! :afraid:

chowmi
February 22nd, 2011, 09:21 PM
By saying "In today's world" I assume you are referring to technology advances for seeding, entry processing, etc. However, those advances have very little to do with why we require 35 days notice.

Our Nationals hosts' prepare for their meet for up to 2 years in advance and they have no idea how many swimmers are coming until the entry deadline. Annual meets in the same geographic area (such as a Pac Champ meet) have somewhat predictable attendance each year, but Nationals is anybody's guess (and it is usually wrong). At one point Clovis was preparing for 3000 swimmers (they ended up with 1582). The number of volunteers needed to run the meet relies heavily on the meet timeline - which is wholly contingent upon the number of swimmers (are the days long enough for two shifts or are three needed?). Much has to happen between the entry deadline and the meet at Nationals that doesn't typically occur for local meets (6th event decisions, seeding variation decisions, publishing a 100+ page program with content to comply with USMS corporate partner agreements, setting up shuttle schedules, etc.). And much of this work is done by volunteers. USA Swimming can pull meets together more quickly because they have a paid staff working full time on the meet. But as of this moment, there are no paid staff on the USMS Championship Committee :D

In summary, the Host needs as much time as possible to know how many swimmers are expected to compete. The Championship Committee is aware of the inconvenience of having to enter Nationals prior to many LMSC and Zone Championship meets and is investigating alternatives such as the ability to update your entry times after you've entered, or perhaps the USMS Top Times database will automatically update your seed time if new results get uploaded. This won't happen in time for Mesa or Auburn but I can say it is being looked into - we just talked about it last week on a conference call:
http://www.usms.org/admin/minutes/champ-2011-2-16-1.pdf

Any suggestions are welcome.

Thanks,
Jeff Roddin
USMS Championship Committee Chair
championship@usms.org

EXCELLENT POST! You get the Post of the Month award! It is often overlooked and total unappreciated all the work that goes into putting on events/meets!

And i'd like to give a shout out to my faaaavorite official, chowsh, who will most likely be officiating at nationals!!!!

The Fortress
February 22nd, 2011, 09:28 PM
The suits are all psychological...

... when you didn't train very hard, didn't need to taper, didn't need to shave down to race because all you had to do was have $$$$$ to buy a rubber boat with built in engine (B70), zip it on, dive in, and touch the wall in record time!!!



Aren't these contradictory positions?

And they are both incorrect.

C'mon, man, most people going to Nats that are serious swimmers are training hard.

The Fortress
February 22nd, 2011, 09:31 PM
Uh-oh, James, ya better watch out; you're about to get blasted! :worms: As a newbie to USMS and the forums, right before Nationals, I got a lot of :bitching: and :argue: when I expressed the same views about tech suits. Ohhhhh boy! :afraid:



This is what I meant about your thread hijacking. You erupt onto a thread with the Bieber font and smilie overload and start in on a separate topic where you allege you previously have been "attacked" before anyone has said a word.

But, since you mentioned it in this annoying way, I decided to tell James he was incorrect in his factual statements (though he is entitled to his opinion that he dislikes tech suits).

pwb
February 22nd, 2011, 09:48 PM
Some may have to guess and hope they're close.Aren't we all guessing anyhow when we put in our entry times?

Except for drive-able locals, I suspect most of us have to make a commitment to travel at least 5 weeks out to get to Nationals economically, work-wise, family-wise, etc. I think Jeff Roddin laid out a lot of reasons why the deadline must be as far out as it is.

Judging by watching a lot of heats at various Masters meets over the years, entry times are merely a formality you have to do to enter the meet, but often bear little resemblance to what you're actually able to do at the meet. Embrace the chaos and uncertainty of the psych sheet, but just make sure you're in it.

That Guy
February 22nd, 2011, 11:31 PM
I decided to tell James he was incorrect in his factual statements (though he is entitled to his opinion that he dislikes tech suits).

:banana: Behold and be amazed as I respond to the tech suit offshoot, use smilies and fonts, AND get us back on topic! :banana: Swimming is better off without the tech suits. :banana: Since the tech suit ban, I've been participating in meets, watching video of meets, and reading results of meets of all levels. :banana: The meet results make more sense than they did in 2009. :banana: I do think that the suits are going to make a partial comeback when someone figures out how to make rubber or polyurethane thread which can then be woven into a "textile" suit. :banana: But the current coverage limitations will still be in effect. :banana: In the meantime, this SCY Nationals will be fascinating for all the usual reasons, PLUS we get to find out whether participation levels are affected by the tech suit ban and whether SCY Top Tens are easier to come by this year. :banana: I'm glad that there isn't a way for anyone to change their events or entry times once they've entered, because it would invite all sorts of shenanigans once the psych sheet is out, and also because it would mess up the apples-to-apples comparisons with prior years. :banana: Thanks, I'm here all week, try the veal

orca1946
February 23rd, 2011, 12:39 AM
As I read the rules , entry must be postmarked by March 17th.

aquageek
February 23rd, 2011, 09:07 AM
...pretty close to last year...when you didn't train very hard, didn't need to taper, didn't need to shave down to race because all you had to do was have $$$$$ to buy a rubber boat with built in engine (B70), zip it on, dive in, and touch the wall in record time!!!

As you can tell, I'm glad the tech suit era is dead and gone. :bliss:

This worn out mantra was dated 18 months ago and is absurd. Most people considered the suits as a compliment to their hard training - a way to capitalize on the hard work. It was in no way a crutch.

And, as to $$, by the end of the era I was able to get three full body suits for a grand total of $100. And, it really doesn't make a bit of difference how someone else spends their money for their sport.

Swimosaur
February 23rd, 2011, 10:40 AM
Embrace the chaos and uncertainty of the psych sheet ...

Part of the fun preparing for last spring's nats was in helping my friend figure out which swimmers were serious threats and which were being perhaps a little too optimistic in their entry times. In my friend's case (though certainly not in mine) there were national championships on the line, and that made the puzzle ever so much more interesting. As a spectator, it gives the competition that much more depth and intrigue when you've done your homework on what is happening in a particular heat. Embrace it, indeed!

ALM
February 23rd, 2011, 10:47 AM
As I read the rules , entry must be postmarked by March 17th.

Online entries close at midnight March 24. Paper entries must be postmarked by March 17 or received by March 24.

ElaineK
February 23rd, 2011, 01:33 PM
:banana: Behold and be amazed as I respond to the tech suit offshoot, use smilies and fonts, AND get us back on topic! :banana:

:ohyeah:

As for the topic of seed times (it was :hijack: before I posted to this thread), I'm fine leaving things just they way they are, rather than changing the system. I guess it's not a big deal to me, since I'm near the bottom of my age group at Nationals, anyway. :blush:

BillS
February 23rd, 2011, 01:45 PM
Despite the loss of the suits and aging up this year, I'll be entering with my masters pr's (all are within a year or two old). My strategy: Just say no to suit double-think/psych or new age group double-think/psych, enter pr's, and swim faster.

The Fortress
February 23rd, 2011, 02:56 PM
:banana: Behold and be amazed as I respond to the tech suit offshoot, use smilies and fonts, AND get us back on topic! :banana: Swimming is better off without the tech suits. :banana: Since the tech suit ban, I've been participating in meets, watching video of meets, and reading results of meets of all levels. :banana: The meet results make more sense than they did in 2009. I do think that the suits are going to make a partial comeback when someone figures out how to make rubber or polyurethane thread which can then be woven into a "textile" suit. :banana: But the current coverage limitations will still be in effect. :banana: In the meantime, this SCY Nationals will be fascinating for all the usual reasons, PLUS we get to find out whether participation levels are affected by the tech suit ban and whether SCY Top Tens are easier to come by this year. :banana: I'm glad that there isn't a way for anyone to change their events or entry times once they've entered, because it would invite all sorts of shenanigans once the psych sheet is out, and also because it would mess up the apples-to-apples comparisons with prior years. :banana: Thanks, I'm here all week, try the veal

Ack, I cannot read this. Green is worse than blue. Just to clarify, I did not mean the :banana: as an insult. I do on occasion use smilies. :angel:

thewookiee
February 23rd, 2011, 03:06 PM
Ack, I cannot read this. Green is worse than blue. Just to clarify, I did not mean the :banana: as an insult. I do on occasion use smilies. :angel:

Is there anyway that a user can fix their account so when he/she reads other posts, they don't these smiley pieces of crap or impossible to read colors?

Why don't usms use online entries only?

That Guy
February 23rd, 2011, 03:29 PM
Ack, I cannot read this. Green is worse than blue. Just to clarify, I did not mean the :banana: as an insult. I do on occasion use smilies. :angel:

No worries Fort. :)


Is there anyway that a user can fix their account so when he/she reads other posts, they don't these smiley pieces of crap or impossible to read colors?

:lmao:



Why don't usms use online entries only?

:cane: <-- Because we want him to enter meets.

jroddin
February 23rd, 2011, 03:33 PM
Why don't usms use online entries only?

Because not everybody from the backwoods of Tennessee has a computer...

scyfreestyler
February 23rd, 2011, 03:35 PM
If you don't want to see the fonts, colors and smilies, try Ctrl + W.

As for the online entries only, believe it or not there are still some people who aren't online. I was a little surprised to find out last year that a teammate of mine is one of these folks.

thewookiee
February 23rd, 2011, 03:38 PM
Because not everybody from the backwoods of Tennessee has a computer...

Remember, LC nationals are in Alabama. Down there, they don't take kindly to yankees and transplants coming to our area

knelson
February 23rd, 2011, 03:46 PM
I noticed the registration fee goes from $50 to $60 after a certain date for mailed entries. Is there a similar cutoff for online entries or are they $50 right up until the deadline?

edit: I can answer my own question:

Enter early! Swimmers whose online entries are received by March 10 or paper entries postmarked by March 3 or received by March 10 will enjoy a $10 discount off the meet entry surcharge.

pmccoy
February 23rd, 2011, 04:02 PM
Because not everybody from the backwoods of Tennessee has a computer...
Yeah... its painful to post on this website from backwoods Alabama. I've got to mail someone in California to do it for me. A nice man on a horse picks it up for me and delivers all the replies a few days later.

Obligatory on topic post: Tech suits were banned?

orca1946
February 25th, 2011, 12:53 PM
HEY! Mail delivery people swim also !:2cents:

Karen Duggan
February 25th, 2011, 02:09 PM
I think that if it's numbers that the host needs (which makes perfect sense for planning), then have people sign up by an early date. But it would be REALLY helpful, if entry times could be entered later, maybe 2 weeks before the meet? I don't think too many people would have a problem with this?

I for one, because of inconsistent training, never know what-the-heck times to enter. I have my best estimates after our championship meet in April. March deadlines don't help me at all.

:2cents:

Karen Duggan
February 25th, 2011, 03:55 PM
Remember, LC nationals are in Alabama. Down there, they don't take kindly to yankees and transplants coming to our area

I was tossing the idea around of going to the Auburn nationals? Chewbacca will you be my bodyguard? Sound like I will need one!