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View Full Version : New controversial topic!!!! Poll included



jim thornton
March 7th, 2011, 12:19 PM
Okay, so maybe it's not that new. It's more of a variation on yesteryear's controversial dead-horse-beaten-into-a-Phoenix-and-ready-to-rise-again topic.

I just watched the women's 400 m freestyle A final at the 2011 Indianapolis Grand Prix where Chloe Sutton closes at the end to beat Katie Hoff. Great race, which, by the way, shows that for American female distance swimmers, at least, staying down on the turns and throwing in a SDK or two doesn't necessarily win the race. (But that is not the controversy I am trying to stoke here.)

First, watch the first 30 seconds or so of the video (you can even watch the race itself if you want, but mainly I just want you to see the swimming suits these elite women swimmers are wearing.) YouTube - Women's 400m Freestyle A Final - 2011 Indianapolis Grand Prix

Second, a quick vignette. Last week, I went to swim the 1650 at Carnegie Mellon University, which annually holds a 1650 meet with the timing pads out, etc. It's supposed to count for USMS, but for whatever reason, our local chapter of the USMS organization never seems to actually get things together enough for any of our "recognized" or "sanctioned" or "what have you" meets to ever "count." But again, allowing Western Pa/AMAM to secede from our Zone and join Colonies Zones, where we belong, is NOT the contoversy I am trying to stoke here, albeit one truly worthy of being stoked.

Anyhow, at that CMU meet, a friend, Carl Goldman, shaved down in an attempt to beat his previous year's B70 time, which he actually did do. (I, on the other hand, was about 29 seconds slower--going from last year's mediocre 19:34 to this year's more mediocre 20:03.)

Flash forward one week to yesterday, when our local Y, the Sewickley Sea Dragons, held our yearly Amish Mudhole Series meet ( visit our web site for the entirely unrecognized by USMS Y league that dominates these here parts http://www.amymsa.org ).

In the lockerroom, I happened to see Carl's chest. A riot of ingrown chestal hair blisters made his thorax look like something out of a small pox epidemic.

He claimed the suppurating wounds didn't hurt.

But it hurt me to look at them.

I know FINA has settled the suit issue for all time, but think of the human suffering, albeit male human suffering primarily (but a little female human suffering, too, because women have to look at and listen to their angry rash-chested male loved ones post any major swimming competition) that could be avoided by one simple change in the rules!

This IS the controversy I am trying to stoke here: Let guys who don't want to shave their chests wear the same suits that are legal for women.

I am going to post a poll here, but I shall make a prediction before the first votes come filtering in:

1) women who are not intimately associated with wooly chested male swimmers will likely vote no

2) men who do not have a lot of body hair will likely vote no

3) men who already shave their chests regularly, for god only knows what reason of vanity or Gillette razor marketing propaganda, will likely vote no

4) the Kinks and other Ape Men will vote yes.YouTube - The Kinks - Apeman 1970

Put me down in the latter camp.

stillwater
March 7th, 2011, 12:26 PM
Women should be required to wear mens suits.

jim thornton
March 7th, 2011, 12:27 PM
Women should be required to wear mens suits.

Yes! Let's see how they like shaving their chestal hairs!

orca1946
March 7th, 2011, 12:32 PM
I have said this a lot!! Let both genders wear the same amount of material !!

couldbebetterfly
March 7th, 2011, 12:39 PM
Yes - I'm not a fan of chest hair, or beer-guts spilling over jammers :bolt:

KevinS
March 7th, 2011, 12:54 PM
Yes, because I am tired of my beer gut hanging over my jammers. :blush::afraid:

I don't know how manly I would feel asking someone to zip me up in the back. But seriously, I don't mind either way.

knelson
March 7th, 2011, 01:03 PM
I don't know how manly I would feel asking someone to zip me up in the back.

Not an issue. Zippers aren't allowed in women's suits, either.

thewookiee
March 7th, 2011, 01:11 PM
I don't know how manly I would feel asking someone to zip me up in the back.

The first time you have to ask Geek to zip you up, you realize that nothing in life will be as humiliating.

jaadams1
March 7th, 2011, 01:20 PM
Women should be required to wear mens suits.

+1 vote :applaud: :bolt:

fdtotten
March 7th, 2011, 01:43 PM
...for the men with significant of amount of body hair to drag through the water, a careful & close as possible clipping will have nearly similar performance benefit result of shaving without the most negative side effects later. However - I say let those who wish to wear the suits do so, for the self-motivation and pursuit of their swimming goals. Hash out the details with USMS committees such only specific to SCY or a special category/division for Swim Suit events, etc.

pwolf66
March 7th, 2011, 01:54 PM
I voted no only because I know I won't be able to find a suit big enough.

geochuck
March 7th, 2011, 02:05 PM
I voted yes.

They are available, I noticed one company is going to have XXXL, and XXXXL for the very big people.

ElaineK
March 7th, 2011, 02:08 PM
Yes. Jim, you have my sympathy... :bighug:

thewookiee
March 7th, 2011, 02:21 PM
...for the men with significant of amount of body hair to drag through the water, a careful & close as possible clipping will have nearly similar performance benefit result of shaving without the most negative side effects later. .

As someone with body hair, a close clipping will still cause the negative side effects of ingrown hair.

Allen Stark
March 7th, 2011, 02:49 PM
NO:dedhorse:

The Fortress
March 7th, 2011, 02:51 PM
NO:dedhorse:

Agree.

That Guy
March 7th, 2011, 03:24 PM
Agree.

+1 to Allen and Fort. I tried to come up with something funny to say in this thread, and came up with nothing, so then I tried to think of a meta-rant, and likewise came up with nothing. Try as I might, I just don't find this topic controversial.

jim thornton
March 7th, 2011, 03:44 PM
NO:dedhorse:


Agree.

Precisely as predicted!

No votes from...

1) A man with no chest hair...and

2) a woman who once argued vociferously on behalf of body suits for all, one who now embraces the "I got mine, why should I help you get yours?" philosophy that so defines America circa 2011!

The Fortress
March 7th, 2011, 04:25 PM
Precisely as predicted!


2) a woman who once argued vociferously on behalf of body suits for all, one who now embraces the "I got mine, why should I help you get yours?" philosophy that so defines America circa 2011!

I got mine?! Then please explain all the body suits with zippers collecting dust in my closet!

As we have discussed before, I believe men and women have both been returned to their pre-tech suit existence. These knee skins are the lowest form of tech suit I've ever worn.

Learn to kick, son. Though, yes, stay away from SDK in LCM 400 frees.

SwimStud
March 7th, 2011, 04:39 PM
I think the B70's should be allowed again...but maybe just for Jimby...:2cents:

aztimm
March 7th, 2011, 04:46 PM
If you are that passionate about this topic, why not work through your LMSC to get it changed?

What are all these offensive looking guys wearing for their everyday workouts? I guess one could train in whatever they want, but I've never seen a male swimmer-only train in anything that covered his torso. I have seen triathletes train in wetsuits though.

philoswimmer
March 7th, 2011, 05:10 PM
I want a third option: don't care.

Atlantic
March 7th, 2011, 05:15 PM
If ladies suits are allowed to go down to the knee, men's suits should be allowed to go up to the neck. There should an equal amount of coverage for both men and women. As for us ladies, we have to have "the girls" covered - but I think the guys should be able to wear a similar suit (so they can have the same advantage - as Masters, we all have something in our torso region that needs to be compressed/covered up in some way). That being said, zippers would have to be legal... maybe.

ElaineK
March 7th, 2011, 05:26 PM
I want a third option: don't care.

Actually, I agree with you Philo. I was just feeling sorry for Jim! :D

geochuck
March 7th, 2011, 05:54 PM
For you guys with lots of hair, don't air bubbles attach to the hair and give you a floating advantage. I would suggest you don't shave.

jim thornton
March 7th, 2011, 05:55 PM
I want a third option: don't care.


Actually, I agree with you Philo. I was just feeling sorry for Jim! :D


Well, as long as we are on the subject of those who "got theirs" and thus "don't care" or "actively want have nots to stay that way!," let me introduce a thread-diverting mini rant on another subject.

If you have a moment, go to this Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation Calculator and see what your health insurance would cost you in 2014, if you had to pay all of it yourself (i.e., without a company subsidizing you). Then see how much the health reform act might potentially help us wretches currently suffering so mightily in the inhumanly cruel individual health insurance market.

http://healthreform.kff.org/subsidycalculator.aspx

For what it's worth, for my own family of four, and based on our income, our premiums and out of pocket maximum will be slashed by a good 75 percent.

But I suspect those who currently "got theirs" will continue to either opt for the "don't care" or "no help for anybody who don't got theirs yet" options, respectively.

Women's suits have thus become a proxy for Human Charity of Spirit, or, more likely, conspicuous lack of same.

Discuss!

philoswimmer
March 7th, 2011, 06:01 PM
Well, as long as we are on the subject of those who "got theirs" and thus "don't care" or "actively want have nots to stay that way!," let me introduce a thread-diverting mini rant on another subject.

If you have a moment, go to this Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation Calculator and see what your health insurance would cost you in 2014, if you had to pay all of it yourself (i.e., without a company subsidizing you). Then see how much the health reform act might potentially help us wretches currently suffering so mightily in the inhumanly cruel individual health insurance market.

http://healthreform.kff.org/subsidycalculator.aspx

For what it's worth, for my own family of four, and based on our income, our premiums and out of pocket maximum will be slashed by a good 75 percent.

But I suspect those who currently "got theirs" will continue to either opt for the "don't care" or "no help for anybody who don't got theirs yet" options, respectively.

Women's suits have thus become a proxy for Human Charity of Spirit, or, more likely, conspicuous lack of same.

Discuss!

By saying that I "got mine," you seem to be assuming that I have what is currently considered a women's tech suit. I don't.

I'm also not against men wearing the same suits as women. I just don't see why it should matter to me one way or the other. There are plenty of ethical issues that I care about even though they don't affect me. This just doesn't strike me as one of them. If men want to wear the same suits as women, it's fine by me. But it's not something I'm going to go out of my way to advocate for.

stillwater
March 7th, 2011, 06:20 PM
I'm also not against men wearing the same suits as women.

I translate that to mean that you are not against women wearing the same suits as men.

I give you a mighty fist bump for finding a way to really promote womens swimming.

Football needs to watch out. There is a new game in town.

seahare
March 7th, 2011, 06:46 PM
I don't feel sorry for the Chewbacca's of the world. Once we accommodate our hairy cousins, next we'll be providing paddles and fins to those with small hands and feet or extra flotation for the sinkers, etc.

If women can shave without the irritation, I think men can learn too. Or, just take a Nair bath.

:)

knelson
March 7th, 2011, 06:49 PM
as Masters, we all have something in our torso region that needs to be compressed/covered up in some way

Oh great, the old "we're masters, we need some kind of crutch" argument rears its ugly head again.

gigi
March 7th, 2011, 07:33 PM
My stance on this remains as it always has been:

It would be a public service for all men to have the option of covering up what's currently "above the suit." I give thanks every day that I don't have to treat the world to the sight of my unadorned abdomen...and I wish I didn't have to see everyone else's.

That's just me.

But honestly, if I had to wear a midriff-exposing suit, my career would be over. No way I'd parade around on deck with all that goodness on display. Not anymore. Uh-uh. No mas.

I'm with Jimby on this one

Atlantic
March 7th, 2011, 08:07 PM
Oh great, the old "we're masters, we need some kind of crutch" argument rears its ugly head again.

It was a joke, meant for a laugh - not an argument.

ElaineK
March 7th, 2011, 08:15 PM
By saying that I "got mine," you seem to be assuming that I have what is currently considered a women's tech suit. I don't.

I'm also not against men wearing the same suits as women. I just don't see why it should matter to me one way or the other. There are plenty of ethical issues that I care about even though they don't affect me. This just doesn't strike me as one of them. If men want to wear the same suits as women, it's fine by me. But it's not something I'm going to go out of my way to advocate for.

Ditto! Thanks, Philo, you saved me the time/energy in writing basically the same thing myself.

geochuck
March 7th, 2011, 09:19 PM
There are neck to knee suits designed for men and are very manly looking. The girls would not want to wear them. I saw a guy wearing this one last week.

couldbebetterfly
March 7th, 2011, 09:24 PM
What are all these offensive looking guys wearing for their everyday workouts?

The belly-flab is not as visible while working out as everyone tends to be in the water. I guess I've got used to the full body suits for men over the years so seeing all this additional flesh on display last week was a bit un-nerving!

swimshark
March 7th, 2011, 09:25 PM
Yes! Let's see how they like shaving their chestal hairs!

Are we back to Cheerios and Apple Jacks, Jim?

Bobinator
March 7th, 2011, 10:25 PM
It would be nice if everyone could be allowed to wear what they are most comfortable in. I think it's fine if rubber is no longer allowed but I'm all in favor of any and all folks covering their mid-sections if they are embarrassed exposing themselves in a public pool.

jim thornton
March 7th, 2011, 10:40 PM
It would be nice if everyone could be allowed to wear what they are most comfortable in. I think it's fine if rubber is no longer allowed but I'm all in favor of any and all folks covering their mid-sections if they are embarrassed exposing themselves in a public pool.

Let me state for the record here that I am not embarrassed at exposing my mid-section in a public pool.

Guilty, perhaps, especially when I hear mothers whisper to their toddlers, "Don't stare at the poor man, honey!"

But not embarrassed.

I am not a full sociopath, but I do seem to lack the genes and/or brain lobes responsible for shame. In this regard, call me a sociopath lite.

I just don't want to have an itchy chest!

Bobinator
March 8th, 2011, 11:52 AM
Okay then, comfortable. :angel:

knelson
March 8th, 2011, 12:19 PM
It was a joke, meant for a laugh - not an argument.

OK, sorry. Still I don't really think the "all masters swimmers are out of shape and need to be covered up" saw is either accurate or funny. But I'll close with a dancing banana to lighten the mood. :banana:

stillwater
March 8th, 2011, 10:08 PM
I have said this a lot!! Let both genders wear the same amount of material !!

Two !!s make me feel that I stepped on your toes. I apologize.

A while back, I laughed out loud when you responded to every single post with a response.

Your student.

Stillwater

Allen Stark
March 10th, 2011, 12:17 PM
Precisely as predicted!

No votes from...

1) A man with no chest hair...and

2) a woman who once argued vociferously on behalf of body suits for all, one who now embraces the "I got mine, why should I help you get yours?" philosophy that so defines America circa 2011!

You have only seen me shaved for meets,I am actually on the hirsute side,but I consider sacrificing my hair to the gods of speed to be part of the taper.

orca1946
March 10th, 2011, 06:23 PM
I'll be skinny when I'm 6 weeks dead! I got under 200 lbs when I was training for an Ironman & that's the last time I saw a 1 on the scale!!
I am what I am so avert your eyes when I swim past you!! :bolt:

chowmi
March 10th, 2011, 11:13 PM
There are neck to knee suits designed for men and are very manly looking. The girls would not want to wear them. I saw a guy wearing this one last week.


Regarding this thread: I say wear anything you want!

And now to attempt a mini hijack - inquiring minds want to know - how does the size chart work (female) - if I wear a 32 Speedo endurance WORKOUT suit, and a 26 Speedo LZR Racer & FSPRo, what size knee to neck (or is it neck to knee?) should I order? And what's the difference (besides price) between the blue/black solid and the ones with stripes? And how come these suits have such a kinder price point that the big labels? Do you only take paypal? I've never liked using anything except my good 'ol mastercard, but I could be persuaded to set up an account for this suit.

chowmi
March 11th, 2011, 10:01 AM
If you want a testimonial, pm me in a few weeks after I get my suits! geochuck is very responsive to questions! I ordered one of each 925 and 937. I ruminated a long time over the white vs. green stripe, but in the end, I suspected the green probably wasn't glow-in-the-dark, so opted for the traditional white stripe.

Now back to this thread, it isn't that you need to make USMS change the rules, you need to go out and establish fun events that aren't "sanctioned" - I think a lot of LMSC's probably have an annual relay meet, or something like the Republic of Texas meet in North Texas. These meets are every bit as much part of masters and I took that decathlon seriously this year - even trained for it! Meet events, suits, etc - that is all up to you for making the rules!

Atlantic
March 11th, 2011, 10:43 AM
chowmi:
I hope you like the Yingfas, I really liked mine (black w/ green stitching). I got my first national cuts in it! You can't beat the price!

knelson:
I like the banana, but I did not say that we are all gross and need to be covered up. I apologize if it came across that way. If masters swimmers were to have "trouble spots", I'm sure they would enjoy an option for more coverage.

quicksilver
March 11th, 2011, 11:47 AM
It's (http://explorepahistory.com/displayimage.php?imgId=2113) been done before!

jim thornton
March 11th, 2011, 02:38 PM
It's (http://explorepahistory.com/displayimage.php?imgId=2113) been done before!

It's uncanny how much Johnny and I resemble each other.

Me on left:

http://forums.usms.org/picture.php?albumid=196&pictureid=1438

Bobinator
March 11th, 2011, 02:58 PM
It's (http://explorepahistory.com/displayimage.php?imgId=2113) been done before!
That's hot! :applaud:

Dolphin 2
March 15th, 2011, 10:00 PM
Now that the subject has been brought up, I’ve been thinking about this and as a practical matter, I wonder why there isn’t a “Unisex” swim suit for both men and women.

It would consist of just a conventional brief for men and a brief and a bra “top” for women.

The minimal coverage would also end the controversy about suits unfairly giving a competetive edge. :agree:

D2

geochuck
March 15th, 2011, 10:48 PM
Dolphin 2

Why not a Jammer for ladies and Jammers and a Krammer's Man Bra for men?

Keep it simple a Neck to Knee unisex suit for both.

Dolphin 2
March 15th, 2011, 11:59 PM
Dolphin 2

Why not a Jammer for ladies and Jammers and a Krammer's Man Bra for men?

Keep it simple a Neck to Knee unisex suit for both.

Too much coverage, too much skin chafing, too hard to put on & take off, too many variables (-IE- the tech suit debate),............................... too much hassle!!!

In other words, use the "KISS" principle.

D2

gdanner
March 16th, 2011, 11:51 AM
3) men who already shave their chests regularly, for god only knows what reason of vanity or Gillette razor marketing propaganda, will likely vote no


you got me :) i voted no.

jim thornton
March 16th, 2011, 01:15 PM
Now that the subject has been brought up, I’ve been thinking about this and as a practical matter, I wonder why there isn’t a “Unisex” swim suit for both men and women.

It would consist of just a conventional brief for men and a brief and a bra “top” for women.

The minimal coverage would also end the controversy about suits unfairly giving a competetive edge. :agree:

D2

I have long advocated swim pasties for women. Why provide an entire bra's worth of coverage? If it's good enough for strippers, I say it's good enough for masters swimmers.

jim clemmons
March 16th, 2011, 02:31 PM
I have long advocated swim pasties for women. Why provide an entire bra's worth of coverage? If it's good enough for strippers, I say it's good enough for masters swimmers.

Wonder how the dive start affects their stick-to-it-ive-ness...:bump:

jim thornton
March 16th, 2011, 02:34 PM
Wonder how the dive start affects their stick-to-it-ive-ness...:bump:

They would have to be inspected, of course, by volunteer adhesive chemists, or, barring that, those of us who have taken a half hour course in adhesive chemistry.

geochuck
March 16th, 2011, 02:40 PM
Jim and Jim you could get BUSTED.

jim clemmons
March 16th, 2011, 02:47 PM
They would have to be inspected, of course, by volunteer adhesive chemists, or, barring that, those of us who have taken a half hour course in adhesive chemistry.

So, you'd be the Adhesive Assessor or Sticky Supervisor?...:bliss:

jim thornton
March 16th, 2011, 02:47 PM
Jim and Jim you could get BUSTED.

Are you calling Jim Clemmons a boob? I know Jim Clemmons, and he does not warrant such absurd titular baggage! If mammary serves, he was able to make the TT in two different age categories in the same year! Just because he, like me, thinks *** for tat gender neutrality in suits is only fair, no reason to make udderly disparaging remarks about my fellow bro-worthy breaststroker!

This is the kind of libelous charge that would have had Steve McGarrett arrest you George, then turn to his subordinate and say, "Buxum, Dan-O!"

jim thornton
March 16th, 2011, 02:49 PM
So, you'd be the Adhesive Assessor or Sticky Supervisor?...:bliss:

To paraphrase the old Timex commercials, I would want to do the classic saliva test before I could confidently proclaim, "These take a lickin' and don't stop stickin'!"

orca1946
March 16th, 2011, 03:48 PM
WOW this has gone to the cliff & it's getting windy out there!!!!!:bolt:

Slowswim
March 25th, 2011, 04:07 PM
With tech suits now not allowed, we'll need asterics to denote record with tech-suits.

These new suit will require another asteric so not to be confused with the suits that preceded tech-suits.

I'd think the best answer in briefs for guys and the standard one piece for ladies. as it's been said in previous threads that ... "wrapping your thighs in nylon is not about modesty." than it must be about getting an advantage from the suit.

If you want to beat Mark Spitz or Janet Evans, dress like them.

:2cents: