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bowyer954
April 11th, 2011, 10:12 PM
So, I am a so-so butterflyer--go 27.5 in the 50 yds and 1:04 IN THE 100 (59 yds old). I can only maintain body position and foreward motion if I am going around :32 on the 50's. I can't maintain any form and swim slower. Anything slower than this and I take on a cork like profile--all bobbing. I would like to learn to swim the 200 but there is no way in this life that I can maintain a :32 sec split--I want to know how I should train/what I should do to smooth out my form, swim slower and be able to hit ~ :36 sec's on the 50's. A mid 2::20's on the 200 would suit me fine.

That Guy
April 11th, 2011, 10:40 PM
Check out The Butterfly Lane - U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums, there are lots of good tips and good sets there.

Herb
April 11th, 2011, 10:45 PM
I have the same issue but at a slower pace and I am 17 years younger. With those times I think you are closer to a super human than a so-so butterflier.

bowyer954
April 11th, 2011, 10:58 PM
Herb what are you doing to learn to swim slower but longer?

Herb
April 11th, 2011, 11:11 PM
Herb what are you doing to learn to swim slower but longer?

Sorry, like I said I have the same issue. I can't do it either. I only have a sprint fly stroke that gives me enough momentum before it falls apart - which I can do for at most 100 (haven't even tried 200 since my youth).
Breathing every stroke seems popular but that only makes it harder for me.

jaadams1
April 11th, 2011, 11:15 PM
So, I am a so-so butterflyer--go 27.5 in the 50 yds and 1:04 IN THE 100 (59 yds old). I can only maintain body position and foreward motion if I am going around :32 on the 50's. I can't maintain any form and swim slower. Anything slower than this and I take on a cork like profile--all bobbing. I would like to learn to swim the 200 but there is no way in this life that I can maintain a :32 sec split--I want to know how I should train/what I should do to smooth out my form, swim slower and be able to hit ~ :36 sec's on the 50's. A mid 2::20's on the 200 would suit me fine.

Start and keep a breathing pattern, right from the start of the swim...especially in training, that way it's really driven into your body so that it come naturally when you swim it in a race. I use the 1 stroke head down, 2 strokes with a breath pattern. Everyone is different, find what works and go with it. :)
Here's me swimming 200 fly:
YouTube - 4-9-11 200 Fly in the Free event NW Zone.mp4

That Guy
April 11th, 2011, 11:25 PM
Start and keep a breathing pattern, right from the start of the swim...especially in training, that way it's really driven into your body so that it come naturally when you swim it in a race. I use the 1 stroke head down, 2 strokes with a breath pattern. Everyone is different, find what works and go with it. :)
Here's me swimming 200 fly:
YouTube - 4-9-11 200 Fly in the Free event NW Zone.mp4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hbd0yoWGkEQ)

That video should come with a warning. There is footage of a hideous bald man yelling at the 100 and 150 marks. :afraid:

jaadams1
April 11th, 2011, 11:39 PM
That video should come with a warning. There is footage of a hideous bald man yelling at the 100 and 150 marks. :afraid:

And quite a muscular one at that too!! :afraid::roids:

Swimosaur
April 12th, 2011, 12:26 AM
So, I am a so-so butterflyer--go 27.5 in the 50 yds and 1:04 IN THE 100 (59 yds old). ... A mid 2::20's on the 200 would suit me fine.

From the 2009-2010 rankings (http://www.usms.org/comp/meets/toptimes.php), a 27.50 50 fly in M55-59 would rank #39, and a 1:04.00 in the 100 would rank #46. A mid 2:20 in the 200 fly would rank in the range #15 - #18 or so. That's a lot higher! To get #40 in the 200 fly, you only have to swim around 2:50 or so. This you can do, with plenty of room to spare!


... what I should do to smooth out my form, swim slower ....

:2cents: ... When your hands enter the water, put a big, long GLIDE into your stroke. You can get amazing distance per stroke that way. You can easily do a length of a 25 SCY pool in 6 or 5 or even 4 strokes. Practice doing 25's fly on :40, at 6 strokes per length. No more than 6. Don't care about time. Just count the strokes.

Given your time in the 100, I'll bet you can hit your target.

ElaineK
April 12th, 2011, 05:10 PM
Here's me swimming 200 fly:
YouTube - 4-9-11 200 Fly in the Free event NW Zone.mp4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hbd0yoWGkEQ)

Awesome, James! Bravo! Bravo!! :applaud:

kellys
April 12th, 2011, 10:10 PM
It's ok to breathe every stroke as long as you can keep your stroke rate consistent.

I like the set of 25's mentioned earlier...Think of it as a "Broken 200 fly" and focus on a consistent stroke rate and time for each 25.

orca1946
April 13th, 2011, 10:52 AM
YES - you will need to slow down to do a full 200. That is not a bad thing, it's what we all do.

analazy
April 13th, 2011, 12:12 PM
learn...:)
Madam Butterfly On Mad Manhattan Mission
Next time you're getting tired on that tough 'fly set, think of Dr Julie Bradshaw, from Britain. She's 47 - and this summer she's intent on testing sanity itself with a round-Manhattan Island swim - 28.5 miles - on butterfly. She will follow that up by swimming 3 miles down the Humber River in England - also on butterfly - and would be the first to do so.
Bradshaw, from Blackpool in the north-west of England, is known as the "Lady of the Lakes" courtesy of the records she has set while traversing various water courses of the Lake District not far from her home. She entered the Guinness Book of World Records when she swam butterfly across the English Channel in 2002 in 14 hours 18 minutes.
Her training will inspire some members of Britain's elite team at Loughborough University tomorrow when she warms up in their training pool from 7.30am to 3.30pm, doubtless much of it non-stop and butterfly.
Bradshaw, who lives and trains in Loughborough, where she is a part time lecturer at the university, said: "I know to some people it may seem completely nuts to swim butterfly for so long. While it is a very hard stroke to keep going with for most, I personally donít find it much harder than front crawl. But it does take some long hours of training to get to that stage. I don't know why I keep trying what seems like the impossible. I suppose it's just in my blood. And I just keep looking for new challenges. Manhattan is my latest, and I'm sure it wonít be my last."
In the waters of Manhattan Bradshaw might soak in a little of the spirit of the place as summed up by author Tom Davies in 1979: "She has become a wicked and wild bitch in her old age has Manhattan, but there is still no sensation in the world quite like walking her sidewalks. Great surges of energy sweep all around you; the air fizzes like champagne, while always there is a nervous edge of fear and whispered distant promises of sudden violence."
http://www.swimnews.com/News/view/8591

bowyer954
April 13th, 2011, 08:54 PM
So, not trying to be smart but I find minimal motivation in this story but a lot of envy on my part. I don't understand her stroke form! I struggle from the 100 yd point on and anything looking like miles has zero interest to me. I even have a hard time driving that far! I am more interested in lengthening my stroke (couple of good suggestions already on this--appreciate the help)or finding some manner to improve my core/kick. I find any pace over 32 sec on the 50's causes me to sink and do the "bob stroke". I don't know how to plane out and move efficiently. I am concerned that my conditioning may be insufficient and my training faulty. When I used to compete I would always negatively split the 100 fly (coasting on the first 50 and sprinting to win on the second) now I can't coast and struggle to finish the last 25 yds. Anything over 2700 yds in practice causes a great deal of muscle pain (arms and joints) so I try to stay around 2500 yds ~ five days a week. I don't mean to sound like such a whinner.

kmoehumphreys
April 13th, 2011, 10:10 PM
I have been experimenting with different fly technique a lot lately. Old(er) person fly is affected so much by the decrease in back flexibility that so many of us get with disc degeneration as we age.

A common problem with fly is that people go too vertical when they tire. In addition to the obvious causes of this, lack of strength and conditioning, I think too much knee bend contributes. I like to say that "dolphins don't have knees".

Emphasizing a straight leg up kick and keeping my thighs nearer the surface helps me keep my momentum going forward rather than up and down.

When I used to swim a 200 fly I always used my energy like a negative split swim in practice. And thought "easy, easy, build, now just finish" on consecutive 50's in a race. I think that going 200's in practice where the first 100 is easy free, open turn, and then a faster 100 fly is a good way to rehearse the effort needed to successfully swim a 200 butterfly in a race.

Good luck!

bowyer954
April 13th, 2011, 10:16 PM
Thanks, I can use this. Appreciate it.

orca1946
April 14th, 2011, 06:27 PM
I breathe to the side to keep my head down in fly. If you are a freestyle swimmer, this should be easy. This also lets me go farther in fly.
Most of all - slow it down.

jaadams1
April 14th, 2011, 07:51 PM
I breathe to the side to keep my head down in fly. If you are a freestyle swimmer, this should be easy. This also lets me go farther in fly.
Most of all - slow it down.

I am a freestyle swimmer, and I find this impossible to breathe to the side on butterfly!
Slow it down!!????!????????? :dunno: He must be talking about the 1st 50 or something. I take my 200 out about the same as my 400 IM...which is about the same as my 100 fly for that matter. :banana:

couldbebetterfly
April 14th, 2011, 09:40 PM
Slow it down!!????!????????? :dunno: He must be talking about the 1st 50 or something. I take my 200 out about the same as my 400 IM...which is about the same as my 100 fly for that matter. :banana:

:bow:But you are super-human.....some of us are just trying to finish the 200 fly legally

kellys
April 14th, 2011, 09:44 PM
I find it very hard to get more than 2000 yards in a workout due to time constraints with work/family. You are doing more than me and the 200 fly is my favorite event.

One thing that has not been mentioned yet is using fins to do some longer fly sets. This may help keep your stroke together and allow you to focus on stretching your stroke out.

ande
April 15th, 2011, 11:51 AM
My advice for you is:

1) Train for the 500 free
Swim: 5 or 6 times a week, more is more SFF Tip
Lift: 2 or 3 times a week
Last 150 of my 500 falls off (http://www.usms.org/forums/showthread.php?t=13627&highlight=150+500) has a lot of great ideas
Train more freestyle than butterfly
when swimming fly: Never take a sloppy stroke (except in meets, but hopefully not there either)

2) Kicking: Improve your SDK & butterfly kick
establish best times for
15, 25, 50, 75, 100, 150, & 200
& improve them

3) Develop butterfly easy speed, (which sounds like an oxymoron)

4) Improve your butterfly technique,
butterfly is a flat stroke with a slight undulation
many swimmers swim fly with too much up and down movement, too much knee bend in their kick

5) get a Speedy Suit

6) swim 1 or 2 fast correctly split 200 fly's in practice each week &

7) master correct splitting for your 200 fly

the ideal way to split any stroke 200 is:
50 easy speed, (breathe, save your legs, stay relaxed, & don't hurry)
then hold your next three 50's around the same exact time
ie: 28.5 30.1 30.2 30.0
you need to feel pretty good at the 100
(btw the same principle applies to IM's, the times will vary, it's about the effort on each part)

when swimmers go out too hard on their 200's,
their next 3 50's get progressively slower.

If you take your 200 out:

+ a bit too hard, your 50's will drop off by 0.25 to 0.5 of a second, which many swimmers and coaches don't see as a problem
ie 28.5 30.0 30.5 31.0

+ too hard, your 50's will drop off by 0.5 to 1.0 of a second
ie 28.5 30.0 31.0 32.0

+ way too hard, your 50's will drop off by 1.0 to 2.0 seconds
ie 28.0 30.0 32.0 34.0

+ WAY WAY too hard, your 50's will drop off by 2.0 seconds or more,
your time won't be as fast as it could have been if you split it right,
but you will entertain your friends and give them a "remember when story to remind you about:"
ie one teammate split his 200 fly: 28 32 36 44
also in 1981, when I was 18, I raced the 200 fly at LCM TAGS,
I went 2:17
but split it
1:00 1:17
don't remember my 50's but they probably were:
27, 33, 37, 40 & that last 75 was agonizing awful
I went slower than I was capable of and the race hurt way worse than it would have if I'd split it correctly.

You can also make the mistake of taking your 200 out too easy and giving up too much front end speed. Try different ways and find out what works best for you.

jaadams1
April 15th, 2011, 09:46 PM
My advice for you is:

1) Train for the 500 free

2) Kicking: Improve your SDK & butterfly kick

3) Develop butterfly easy speed, (which sounds like an oxymoron)

4) Improve your butterfly technique,

5) get a Speedy Suit (http://www.usms.org/forums/showpost.php?p=204355&postcount=1346)

6) swim 1 or 2 fast correctly split 200 fly's in practice each week &

7) master correct splitting for your 200 fly



I do #1 pretty much all the time. Most of my workouts are a freestyle base or IM base. I don't really do that much full stroke fly in practice anymore.
#2 I really should work on more. My strongest kick is my kick as my hands are finishing the stroke past the hips. I'm sure I could improve with my SDKs though. Always something to work on.
#3 & #4 Check. Can do. This takes lots of time to be relaxed and swim fast fly. I've always had the "natural fly stroke" from the age group years.
#5 Yingfa Baby!!! $33!!!
#6 1 or 2??!?! Full 200s!!???!! I'll just save these for the meets. :)
#7 This is the biggie!! I love to get out fast...and this is also the killer for me. I don't have enough true endurance to be able to hold on to my splits, but my heart still wants to try!! This is the part That Guy really enjoys in the head to head races. Hopefully we'll actually get to go head to head this next fall sometime!! :banana:

Very nice advice Ande!! It's good to know that I'm already 80% or so following your advice. :applaud:

That Guy
April 15th, 2011, 10:36 PM
I do #1 pretty much all the time. Most of my workouts are a freestyle base or IM base. I don't really do that much full stroke fly in practice anymore.
#2 I really should work on more. My strongest kick is my kick as my hands are finishing the stroke past the hips. I'm sure I could improve with my SDKs though. Always something to work on.
#3 & #4 Check. Can do. This takes lots of time to be relaxed and swim fast fly. I've always had the "natural fly stroke" from the age group years.
#5 Yingfa Baby!!! $33!!!
#6 1 or 2??!?! Full 200s!!???!! I'll just save these for the meets. :)
#7 This is the biggie!! I love to get out fast...and this is also the killer for me. I don't have enough true endurance to be able to hold on to my splits, but my heart still wants to try!! This is the part That Guy really enjoys in the head to head races. Hopefully we'll actually get to go head to head this next fall sometime!! :banana:

Very nice advice Ande!! It's good to know that I'm already 80% or so following your advice. :applaud:


I don't train freestyle consistently, though I am starting to believe that it is the best cross-training for fly. This training cycle I am extending the 6 beat freestyle that I learned last cycle to longer distances. Training with a slower 6 beat kick in freestyle this week has felt like a whole different stroke since I have literally never done it before.
Yes, I have to keep reminding myself of this. I should write the words "BIG KICK" in Sharpie on the back of my hands every time I go to a meet where I'm going to swim the 200 fly. That way those words are the last thing I'll see right before the starting buzzer.
Yes, I'm always working on this.
This too.
Tyr Tracer Light here
I don't do this either. In 2011 I've raced the 200 fly 4 times in meets (3 SCY, 1 SCM) and I swam it once in practice a few days before each meet. So that's 8 200 flys in 15 calendar weeks so far this year. Most of the time I don't go longer than 100's in practice. During long course season, I will go longer a bit more often.
I have a tendency to go out too slowly and then split my 100's only 2-3 seconds apart. But if I have a rabbit next to me, I might go out a little faster and also have someone to chase down on the second 100. I'm 3-0 against James in the 200 fly, but who's counting? :D

jaadams1
April 15th, 2011, 11:57 PM
I have a tendency to go out too slowly and then split my 100's only 2-3 seconds apart. But if I have a rabbit next to me, I might go out a little faster and also have someone to chase down on the second 100. I'm 3-0 against James in the 200 fly, but who's counting?


Bring it... :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana:

It'll either be next fall SCY or SCM for our next gridge match!!

Rykno
April 18th, 2011, 03:50 AM
I haven't swam the 200 fly since 1987. and even then it was a one time deal.

recently over here, they started a postal meet. so we have from last week until the end of May to swim 100/200 + 200 IM at practice and mail in our times.

I started with the 200m fly yesterday. Ouch! Rough split at 100 was 1:18 and final time was 2:54.74 (1:36). if I had to guess my 50 splits it would looke like

:35 :43 :46 :51

if I manage to get the other 8 swims in before the end of May I am going to try the 200 fly again. :38 :40 :42 : 42 = 2:42 that's roughly how I swim my 200 breast.

for reference I swim the 50m fly 29.96, and 100 fly 1:08.9, but would like to get down to 1:06 (just under 1:00 in yds)

That Guy
April 18th, 2011, 11:26 PM
Start and keep a breathing pattern, right from the start of the swim...especially in training, that way it's really driven into your body so that it come naturally when you swim it in a race. I use the 1 stroke head down, 2 strokes with a breath pattern. Everyone is different, find what works and go with it. :)
Here's me swimming 200 fly:
YouTube - 4-9-11 200 Fly in the Free event NW Zone.mp4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hbd0yoWGkEQ)

I just read an email on the Butternuts email list that this dude (http://www.swimphone.com/mobile/meets/individual_results.cfm?smid=2960&id=1919-028WJ&ln=D'Amour) swam the 500, 1000, and 1650 as fly at the Michigan Masters meet last weekend. He also swam the 50, 100, and 200 fly events. And he had the flu. :applaud:

jaadams1
April 19th, 2011, 05:52 PM
I just read an email on the Butternuts email list that this dude (http://www.swimphone.com/mobile/meets/individual_results.cfm?smid=2960&id=1919-028WJ&ln=D'Amour) swam the 500, 1000, and 1650 as fly at the Michigan Masters meet last weekend. He also swam the 50, 100, and 200 fly events. And he had the flu. :applaud:

That sounds dangerously close to another one of your "stupid" challenges, is it???? :afraid: SCY maybe. If I do a 1650 Fly, it will have to be at our Wenatchee meet next winter. That way I don't have far to drive home. You'll have to come over for that one!! :applaud:

knelson
April 19th, 2011, 06:48 PM
I haven't swam

Uh oh, don't let cheakamus see this! :bolt:

[see "swim, swam, swum" if you don't get it]

That Guy
April 19th, 2011, 06:50 PM
That sounds dangerously close to another one of your "stupid" challenges, is it???? :afraid: SCY maybe. If I do a 1650 Fly, it will have to be at our Wenatchee meet next winter. That way I don't have far to drive home. You'll have to come over for that one!! :applaud:

I didn't challenge you... you did that all by yourself :)

cheakamus
April 19th, 2011, 08:34 PM
Uh oh, don't let cheakamus see this! :bolt:

[see "swim, swam, swum" if you don't get it]

I seen it!:frustrated:

Rykno
April 20th, 2011, 02:06 AM
Uh oh, don't let cheakamus see this! :bolt:

[see "swim, swam, swum" if you don't get it]

that's one of the problems with living overseas for 22 of 36 yrs... the more comfortable I get with the local language the more my english deteriorates!

But my Swenglish is nearly perfect!

orca1946
April 22nd, 2011, 04:33 PM
I went 1,000 fly at the end of practice last year & thought ------ That's enough of that !!! :cane: